I'm confused. How do I get my H to give up the OW without making a love-busting demand? I can rationalize until I'm blue in the face, tell him that the experts say the only way we can resume our relationship is by his totally ceasing contact with the OW (changing phone number, etc.). Perhaps on some level he actually believes this, but on another level he wants to believe that he's different, that in his case the relationship will at some point just end on its own accord. I feel I must "demand" that we take these Draconian measures, but how can I do this without it being a lovebuster?

I think an out and out demand for anything is an LB. It's not giving the person an option.
But you must make a request. Indicate that you believe that the best way to work on your relationship is to cut contact with the OW.<p>I can tell you my experience. I broke up with my partner, he'd had an affair. But we kept contact, by phone. He wanted to know how I was dealing with the whole situation, etc.
But one evening, after dosing up on the MB website, [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] I basically said, "look, you had an A coz you would clearly rather be with this girl. Well, you can't be calling me twice a week, if you really expect to give it a serious try with this girl. And nothing is going to happen between us, unless she's out of the picture."<p>To cut a long back and forth story short: Now, six monthes later, it seems that he's got her out of his system and then he begged back. And I took him back.
But the back and forth was on his side. I stuck my ground all the way through Plan A.

Thanks for the reply, Anise. My H is now has gone away for a couple of weeks, and he told me that he hopes to try to get the OW out of his system during this time. This is a positive sign. I suppose I'll pose my "request" to him when he returns, along with suggestions that I "help" him by taking possession of his cell phone and that I contact the phone company to change our number. I wish I could get him to do the reading I've done!!!

Bridget, go back and read up on Love Busters. Here's the link to make it easy:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html<p>The article clearly says selfish demands are love busters. Can you meaningfully rebuild your marriage while he is in contact with another woman? No. Is it selfish to want to heal your marriage? Well, if that's selfish, then I guess we all need to just fold our hands now and give it up.<p>Dr. Harley says that the wandering spouse should cut all contact. Plan A/Plan B are fall back positions to deal with a recalcitrant spouse that you're not ready to give up on yet.<p>I believe that you have the right to decide what you require in your marriage. If you cannot live with him while he has contact with her, it is not a LB for you to tell him that. But you have to be sure that you know what your limits are. You can't use this as a threat. If you are ready to follow through with the consequences, if it is unbearable for you to go through Plan A, then you have the right to skip to Plan B if he won't cut contact.<p>Don't be hysterical about it, and don't be harsh. Maybe go get yourself a good tranquilizer while he's out of town so you will be able to face him without dissolving into a puddle of tears.<p>I admit, I was lucky. My husband agreed to end it the night I found out, although the other woman did continue to call him for a while after, I am sure he did not intiate contact with her. I believe that had he refused to break it off with her, I would have left him. It would have been intolerable to me. I feel very blessed that he made the choice that he did. I hope you are able to get what you need.

Maybe I'm writing this for my own benefit. Here goes:<p>Is it selfish to want your husband love and cherish you above all other women? Yes. That's what he promised when he married you. (Vows, remember?)<p>Will you destroy your husband's love for you by refusing to share that romantic love with someone else?<p>If yes, are you able to keep self respect when realizing that the "whole heart" that he used to lover you with, is now sliced and you may be getting less than half. Maybe even only 10%.<p>I personally find it difficult and humiliating. I'm "dying by inches." And my self respect is really low.<p>More later.

Yes, Belle, it is VERY difficult and you could perceive it to be humiliating. Especially if other people know about the A and what your H is doing to you and your M. But it's your H who looks like a butt, not YOU!<p>However, you can choose to look at it from another perspective......This is totally my opinion, remember, but I have done a lot of reading on the MB site and believe I have a pretty good grasp of Plan A and B. We've had a rocky M and along the way I know the Lord has opened my eyes about to how to act/react to his many LBs. It meshes so perfectly with MB advice that it blows me away!<p>To move from the humiliation perspective I have had to concentrate on ME. I KNOW I'm a good person, treat my H with respect, kindness and love. People like ME and nothing my H can do can change the way I feel about myself. Don't get me wrong. It's hurt tremendously that he's gotten involved with OW at work in (supposedly) an EA. But I can pull away and not get all entwined in letting him project this junk on ME. I see myself as being coated in a heavy layer of Vaseline! So when he tries to make me feel like the EA is because of something I've done or not done, it doesn't stick. I know the truth. HE is the one with the problems he refuses to deal with!<p>I may not have met ALL his EN, but I sure as heck did my darnest! No one could have met all his EA as mean and nasty as he's been at times and I think I went waaaaay past what was required of me as far as being forgiving, loving, etc. He certainly wasn't meeting all MY EN. I have made a choice to love him and stand for my M. It's MY CHOICE. So, what my H does or says during this time really makes no difference at all!<p>The point of Plan A to me, is that I have a time-frame that I'm operating within. You're quite right that this would be impossible to continue indefinitely! But since it's my choice and I'm in charge of THIS game--I CAN DO IT!!<p>After I began to find out how close their relationship was last fall, and my H consistently refused to admit it was anything other than just 'friendship,' I knew I had to seriously do SOMETHING to make ME feel better about myself. (This was long before I found the MB site and even heard of 'Plan A!') So I joined a gym and started working out! The positive changes that working out brought into my life have been tremendous! I feel so much better about myself. I have so much pride in being able to do the workouts. I've changed some of my eating habits, drinking lots of water and cutting out soft drinks. I've lost some weight! My body is getting in the best shape I've ever been in. And I FEEL so good about myself it's hard to believe--with all the craziness I'm in the middle of with H, OW & EA! (H even notices my new shape, which feels good too!)<p>My H told me he ended it with OW on Tuesday (4/2). Each day he has told me things she's said to him at work. I felt hopeful about it ending, cause he's always put me off before when I would press for an END. H would say he had to work things out, do it his way, etc. All those things that really mean it's continuing, but acting like to me he's bringing it to an end. <p>Last night when I casually asked 'so, how's things going?' in a VERY nonthreatening way....he blew up and said he's so tired of me questioning him about OW and pressuring him. Really over-the-top reaction to a very innocent question. Especially since he'd agreed I could ask him anything I wanted to about OW or EA. He said I didn't "know how hard this is." Please, give me a big fat break! HE'S the one that doesn't know how hard it is!! [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] I almost feel like I'm back to square one in Plan A, but I know we've made some progress. I think OW is REALLY the one pressuring him! She does NOT want EA to end! H has said he really hates to lose the friendship and feels sorry for her cause he sees that I was right about his involvement in EA--that she is starved for attention (her H said he didn't mind her friendship with my H as long as it didn't 'enfringe on his time') He sees his interaction with her in cell phone calls, lunches, etc., met her EN for that attention. I think he's finding it VERY difficult to get loose from OW and EA. They see each other at work everyday. <p>I'm going to hang in here and fulfill the time-frame that I set for myself in Plan A. H said last night after he got so upset that all this 'lovey-dovey stuff' is probably fake and he doesn't appreciate it! IT'S WORKING!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] He HAS perceived a change in me and it's making him really crazy!! yeaaaaa<p>Even though our night was upsetting, his observations about my behavior being different gives me the boost that I needed. I told him "I'm not being fake at all. I'm trying to be the person I would be if J**** was not interferring in our lives. I would be happy, loving, peaceful and calm because my life would be great! And that's who I've decided to be, no matter what is happening around me. I'm your wife. I love being your wife. And I want to continue being your wife. I've made a decision that no matter what happens I have the right to be who I am." He didn't know what to say after that! It sure shut him up! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I'm encouraging you guys to focus on YOU! Find something to do that makes you really happy and feel good about yourself....I don't care if it's a hobby, or job, or just cleaning out all the closets and getting rid of a lot of junk. I started cleaning out our attic after Christmas. My oldest daughter, watching me throw things in garbage bags for Goodwill, said it was 'scary' how I was getting rid of so much stuff I'd saved for years. It felt very freeing to get rid of so much baggage that I'd hung onto! Try it! Maybe my H is next! I don't know. I just know for NOW this is where I am, and it's an okay place to be, because I'm in control of ME and that feels GOOD!<p>Just remember: You're good enough....you're kind and loving.....and gosh darn it, PEOPLE LIKE YOU!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>God Bless you all~
amazingrace

Pretty excellent advice, amazinggrace.<p>I've been searching the forum for some recent posts on this subject to download for someone close to me... who's H is still seeing the OW to "let her down easy". Yeah, right. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] He's trying to let his own addiction down easy. So glad you brought up this topic, Bridget....<p>What I've been telling her is to Plan A to the hilt with a Plan B deadline in place; be her H's "bestest" friend and confidante; meet his EN's; not to react negatively to anything he says about the OW and at all costs; not to LB him or put down the OW to him...<p>as it will only make him defensive of the OW and will cause her H to pull away from her.<p>And it seems to be working...he's idiot enough to tell the OW how wonderful his W is being and it's driving the OW crazy with jealousy! She's been LB'ing him with demands, putting his W down, stalking the W. The H is slowly seeing this OW for the psychopath that she is. Unfortunately she's now laying a guilt trip on him, saying she'll commit suicide if he dumps her...cause then she'd know he was only "using her" and it wasn't love after all...
Blech!<p>The next step is what I'm having trouble with, is, as you say, Bridget, how the BS can LOVINGLY but assertively state that her H's continued contact with the OW hurts her and that NO CONTACT is desired.<p>Maybe it's to be said just that way!<p> I've loaned her my copy of SAA...I think the answer is literally in there! Anyone else have their copy handy?<p>The BS (my friend) is also working out at a gym club, amazinggrace. It can't be said enough...exercise is one of the best stress busters out there. With so many other healthy and empowering benefits as well. Definitely one of the smartest things a BS can do for themselves and their recovery...for both their personal recovery as well as (hopefully) their marital one.<p>Bridget, I'm sure you well know we can demand/control nothing. Only ourselves. We can and do NEED to positively communicate how we desire No Contact, so that the WS knows exactly where we stand...but...as icky as it sounds...as disappointing as it may be...The BEST way to get an H to drop an OW is to affect him by changing our own behaviors...and I'm talking "real" changes. Permanent ones.<p>Especially changes in the way we communicate our needs.<p>We can't "talk" the WS out of their addiction, out of their "fog". To attempt that only pushes them further into it.<p>The funny thing is...you're going to find that once you improve upon your own behaviors, you'll start to gain confidence and self-healing. You're gonna shine. You will feel it, and even OTHER people will SEE it. So much so, that eventually, whether your H "falls in line" again or not--isn't the issue...it's more like "can he start changing for the better just to keep up with you?!" "Can he be a man worthy of YOU?<p>While you're H is in the fog, change your focus. Your goal shouldn't be "make him stop seeing the OW"...more like "make him WANT to stop seeing the OW"! You should have many small goals to focus on throughout your day...like: exercise, spend some time meditating or praying, drink 8 glasses of water, other empowering things (there's a million of 'em!), do some homework on mastering one of his top 5 EN's each day...work on mastering the elimination of the things he says are your LB's...<p>(BTW, when I worked on elimating the LB's my H listed, or worked on trying to meet his EN's, it was really enlightening...I feel more relationship-savvy, loving, affectionate and emotionally whole as an individual because of it.) <p>There is a noteable posts/threads post...about how telling a WS he is wrong will only push him to continue to do wrong, just to try and prove that he is right...something like the behavior we had when we were children and parents told us we couldn't have or do a certain thing--making us want have it even more...<p>Another "BTW"--my WS read nothing (well, except the HONESTY chapter and the questioinnaires). Most of our improvement came from me applying what I learned and a few little inservices about POJA and the Harley principles and Rules.<p>I didn't say "we have to do this because Harley said it", either. More like, "...to improve our relationship, here are some guidelines...let's try 'em!". Since our questionnaires turned out so good, my H thought everything was wonderful and sort of fun. He really liked the results so it was automatic postive reinforcement.<p>[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: Leilana ]</p>

Leilana~
Thank you so much for your validation on my advice! I haven't been on the MB boards very long and it's good to know that I've perceived Plan A correctly. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Like I said, God had really led me in this exact direction for years. It was so awesome when I found this site last month! I had desperately looked for just this kind of information and never found anything close, anywhere.<p>I'm still dealing with my feeling about my husband's continued contact with OW too. Your advice hit a note with me.....
~~~not to react negatively to anything he says about the OW and at all costs; not to LB him or put down the OW to him...<p>as it will only make him defensive of the OW and will cause her H to pull away from her.<p>And it seems to be working...he's idiot enough to tell the OW how wonderful his W is being and it's driving the OW crazy with jealousy!~~~<p>My H says he's done this the while time they've been talking and I know OW HATES ME! She's head cashier where he works. I love to go thru her checkout line and say hi and ask how she is. Then I smile reaaal big and say I'M DOING FINE!!! And then I tell her to have a great day! She just hates that.<p>I'm going to try to do what you said, Leilana.
About not reacting to anything he says about OW. It's so hard not to ask if she spoke to him during the day. Should I not even do that? My need to know......needs to know! hahaha But I saw by his reaction last night when I asked how things were going, that I need to lay way off in the questions. Even though he TOLD me I could ask anything I wanted to. He did not mean it, I know that now! He BLEW UP and said how tired he was about all my questions, he was sick of being given 3rd degree, etc. There was no more innocent way I could have asked! I sure saw there are things he's NOT telling me. Turned into a big LB for a minute, but I think I repaired it. He was nice this morning and said not to worry, that everything was going to be fine. Of course he said that the whole time EA was going full gear.... Using your advice, I'm going to tweak Plan A and UP the intensity with which I work it! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Thanks again & God Bless~
amazingrace

All,<p>This is my opinion, personnal one, you should ask WS to stop and let WS know that their behavior is not acceptable. Just one time, LB or no LB !, no threat just let them know that that is not an acceptable behavior. You could even use word picture (read language of love) to express it.<p>-RH-

Wow, I read all of the replies, and all I can say is this is an awesome Forum...I was not such a wise nor patient BS. When I found out about my H 3.5 year PA in Aug of 2001, I was devistated, but at that time, I wasn't ready to seperate. He is the one who actually suggested HNHN which I read and was amazed at how accurate it described our situation. Then we had sessions with Steve Harley...my husband would not cut off contact with the OW. He works with her. He refused to stop all contact with her because he wasn't convinced that the loss of his job was worth the "possibility" that we could make things work. I was lousy at not love busting...I'd say my biggest downfall was disrespectful judgements. About 5 months into trying Plan A, (I did vastly improve on meeting emotional needs) I started on the tape sessions of Love Busters...since I realized this is where I kept failing. The course leads you down a very specific path of identifing when, how and what triggers my Love Busters. As I reflected on this, it became very clear that it was his continued contact with the OW. Once I realized this, I tried very hard to stop LBs, but if what triggers it does not, my guts would churn, and I would become very silent...but more than that, I started to lose major love for my H! I was busting my butt off and he was getting the best of both worlds. So, I told him to choose because I didn't have much love left for him to save. He chose her/work. <p>I am in Plan B now. I guess once you make this decision, the BS tries to rationalize this new situation. For the most part, I feel better - I feel incredibly sad for my child, but for me, I am not terrified of this seperation as I was when he first told me of the affair. <p>So, the other part of Plan A which was very effective for me was you will lose love for your spouse which will make it easier for you to separate if need be.<p>I applaud all of you who have the fortitude to hang in there and do a "good" Plan A. I pray that you will reach the goal of a long and happy marriage with your spouse.<p>Lo

You're a "newbie", AG? Really? You seem to have the wisdom of a "forum oldtimer"! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I think having a personal relationship with God is the ultimate empowerer. It makes all this Plan A stuff a "no-brainer".<p>I'll repeat my question for anyone...what does SAA say about assertively stating your case about contact? I really need to know as I don't have my SAA copy to thumb thru for my friend.<p>To answer your question, AG, there is certain point in recovery where you can negotiate (POJA) certain things...like asking your spouse to tell you about any contact BEFORE you even think of asking...such a wonderful love deposit for you in the honesty department! <p>BUT...I'm not sure you can POJA for such a thing when your spouse could still be sitting on that fence...between committing to the marriage vs. seeing the OW.<p>I'm glad you can see the positive in his blow up...the pressure that is being applied by the OW. Also the internal guilt he's feeling manifests itself in blaming you. My H broke the windshield of his jeep when the OW applied more pressure, demanded more of his time! But that was good. Really, YOU don't want to be the cause of such pressure blow outs. Let HER be the one asking him if he's going to leave his W, talk to her or see her longer, whatever it is she's doing to him that's annoying...<p>If it's annoying your H when you ask right now...back off for now, I guess is what I'm saying here. Till he's ended the EA.<p>Do you find you ask your H about contact when you're feeling particularly insecure? Maybe when you get the urge to ask, let it be a reminder that you need to "empower" yourself more. Like you say, focus on yourself, not on what your H is doing...<p>You're "needs to know" should maybe be put "on hold" for now. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by amazingrace:
<strong>I love to go thru her checkout line and say hi and ask how she is.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>LOL, I do the same type of thing...wave and smile, say Hi when I see the ex-OW. Not to irritate, just to be civil, Christian, friendly, whatever. It's not my habit to snob anyone. She either stone-facedly waves back or runs in the other direction when she sees me coming. Think she's ready to "put out a contract" on me by now. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>If you ever do a search on a poster here, do it on "Lostva". She is the Queen of Plan A. She is such a hoot! She even picked out a birthday card for the OW cause she knew her H "would forget it". Her H thought she was the world's best person, so sweet and thoughtful. The OW went into a hissy fit when she found out. She's my Plan A hero!<p>And she NEVER asked about contact. <p>But somehow, her H confided everything to her because she was his "best bud". She actually became "the OW" to the "OW" so to speak!<p>redhat...yes, we can ask, making an "I" statement, but hopefully do it lovingly enough so that it's NOT an LB.<p>But making this statement alone isn't going to do much other than let the WS know where you stand. It does nothing else, though. <p>We're dealing with "addicted" people here. Addicted to the feelings the A generated/to the OW. Telling an alcoholic or drug addicted person they should stop because their behavior hurts you isn't going to address any of the underlying issues that will stop their behavior. <p>The answer lies in a program of behavior modification.<p>You can't say "I want this result" without laying the groundwork that will ensure a result. Plan A not only lays that groundwork, it also helps to ensure a LASTING result.<p>You want the WS not to just stop the A because it hurts you...you want the WS to stop the A and never have an A again because it's the right and best thing he can do for himself. Because he's so in love with you. Because he finds his marriage happy and fulfilling. Because he will REALIZE FOR HIMSELF that an A is not the answer to his personal unhappiness. You want him to remain faithful TO YOU, that's true. But you also want him to remain faithful FOR HIMSELF. THAT'S your insurance policy.<p>Here's a great post from General Questions II...it repeats much of what AG has said. I think it's an excellent "must read" for all of you in Plan A/Plan B: <p>Pepperband
Member
Member # 7644
posted April 06, 2002 09:48 AM<p>Looking back ... I can see I worked myself through a very awkward "plan A" .... although I never heard of plan A until years into recovery and I started poking around this site. Looking back ... I can see my efforts to become differentiated ... although I did not read Schnarch's "Passionate Marriage " until years into recovery.
Plan A is very much complementary to Schnarch's ideas of differentiation. Developing a positive identity within the context of a marriage struggling to overcome infidelity. Developing a strong sense of self-worth that is valid both within and outside the boundaries of the marriage.<p>I can NOW see plan A as a path to greater self worth and NOT necessarily as a plan to "win back" the heart and mind of the infidel ... although that might happen. It is a plan to differentiate myself and identify myself as a worthy person apart from the circumstances of the marriage relationship. Plan A'ers are not like doormats to wipe your feet upon and to mis-use .... more like a *welcome home* sign... if both persons choose to re-inter the marriage! Plan A says : "I can hold onto my better self under the worst of circumstances".<p>Schnarch says: "We develop a contingent identity based on a 'self-in-relationship'. Because our identity depends on the relationship, we may demand that our partner doesn't change so that our identity won't either." <p>Then ... comes the grenade of infidelity tossed into the marriage and the entire fusion of identities is blown apart! The aftermath of the grenade then boils down to this question ....<p>WHO THE HELL AM I ... AND ... WHO THE HELL ARE YOU?<p>And, asking this question to the *fogged-in* infidel is pointless. They got INTO the affair because they were lost to themselves, and went searching for a new self .... and, INSTEAD of differentiating themselves ... they fused identity to yet another relationship ... actually moving away from a healthy differentiated view of their self-worth ----> I am wonderful because my affair partner thinks so.<p>Plan A says and demonstrates to OURSELVES: I am not some weak pathetic person deserving to be abandoned or cheated. I am demonstrating decent and loving behaviour. I am worthy of love and devotion. ... If the infidel notices .... double bonus points. If not, I become better differentiated along the way ... and I can see my strengths despite terrible and hurtful circumstances. <p>Once I become more fully differentiated and have stable and accurate self-worth (after the grenade) ... I am then in the position to identify
healthy choices. I can honestly say that I will be a sensational woman within this marriage... or after this marriage terminates.<p>I think I finally understand what I went through. I understand that I am the better woman for it. I understand my spouse is the better man for it.<p>That is a powerful message to myself. The anxiety that floods the betrayed spouse is the perceived loss of identity . Self worth and a differentiated identity is the harvest of plan A .<p>I think I get it now.<p>Best to all of you travelers on this journey!<p>Pepper <p>[ April 06, 2002: Message edited by: Pepperband ]<p>--------------------<p>~*~*Yesterday~*~*
all my problems seemed so far away~*<p>BS ... years into recovery!
WH had 18 month EA/PA with friends wife<p>[ April 07, 2002: Message edited by: Leilana ]</p>

This is a great thread. I'm trying all this stuff too - this gives me encouragement to know I am not alone.