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aanast2,<p>Reading your topic brought chills down my spine. Your story is just like mine. <p>About a year ago, my W went out with her girlfriend from work for dinner and drinks. She said she would be home at 9 pm to put boys to bed. W NEVER stays out late, let alone go out. She came home at 3 am with no phone calls. After that night she was a changed person. Very cold, never wanted to kiss, very distant. I thought something was odd, but left it alone. A month later I caught her talking to someone on the phone. W said it was her girlfriend. I hit the redial button on the phone the next morning and BAM - a male coworker from her job picked up. I confronter her about the call, and after trying to get out of it, she finally told me that she had been talking to him as a "friend". I asked if she had feeling for him, and W said " I don't know". Well, after some investigating, I found out that W called him 117 times over a month and a half period. What was news to me was that she called him after she came home the night she stayed out till 3am. I asked her if OM was with them that night and again more lies, but she finally said that he was with them that night. After S%*# hit the fan, my W said she does not love me anymore, does not want to try, feels to much tension in the house, I could do nothing right, ect. She started coming home later and later from work. Funny how she came home on time for the past 3 years, but now she's late 3-4 nights a week. <p>Just a few months prior to her 3 am night a year ago, we were talking about having another baby. We were also this close to buying a house, but now she hates to be with me. Anyways, I have filed for D. I could not take anymore of the pain. We still live together, but it is hard. 9 years of marriage, all done. <p>I can say this. I tried everything I could for a year. I did plan A, tried meeting her EN's, tharapy, giving her space and time but no change just a slap in the face.<p>All I can say is get ready for the biggest rollercoster ride of your life.<p>Dino

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Wow, thanks to all of you for replying. It seems that I should stick to Plan A even though we are separated (since we probably will communicate.)<p>However, I have something new to consider. It doesn't exactly "jive" with Dr. Harley's concepts of Plan A and B, but it makes some sense to me.<p>I spoke with my father finally about my situation (he doesn't live in the country.) He and my mom were divorced many, many years ago and he has had experience with counseling etc. He was a WS and remarried the OW. He is very intelligent, a doctor, his wife is a psychologist. <p>He suggested a two part option:<p>Part 1 - Get my WS to agree to "one last try" by going to a weekend group called Marriage Encounters (seems similar to RETROUVAILLE.) <p>At the weekend, we would write and discuss our issues. We would be alone and be writing, discussing, etc. and it would be intensive for hours each day. It would cause us to be 100% honest about the problems in our relationship and give us the best chance at seeing if it is truly 100% over.<p>The purpose of which is for
a) to generate a spark between us (which my father believes can happen even if there is a OM)<p>b) for me/us to determine if my WS has a deficit within her that she cannot commit to any relationship in the face of bad times. (which is what I need to find out to protect myself for the future in case this becomes a pattern for her.)<p>Part 2 - If we are not able to generate a and/or I discover b is true, I will actually "give up" completely.<p>The hard part (besides dealing with the pain of part 2) is getting my WS to agree to go to Part 1. It may be too late. Although she says she is "pretty sure" we are over. I will have to focus all my energy into getting her to agree including using the following:<p> - convince her to do it (for all we once
had, not to have regrets for throwing it
all away, to be 100% sure, etc..)<p> - convince her that if either one of us is
to start another relationship and be
healthy and successful we must "clean
out" this relationship first and be 100%
honest with each other<p> - talk to a third party that she trusts &
who is "objective" (i.e. wants what is
best for her individually whether that
means marriage or not) to encourage her
to part 1 because it will resolve things <p> - convince myself that if I have to do part
2 and "give up" that I will & stick to it

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My father also suggested that I need to draw the line for myself as to where I have to end it and "give up."<p>My concerns about the two part plan he proposed are that<p>1) I'm not sure a spark can be generated if she is in the "fog" infatuation stage of her new relationship. This is my main concern. It seems that according to MB that nothing we speak about or "educate" her about or anything I do can create love between us. It seems that the affair has to end on its own. My father says that the Marriage Encounters is so intensive and based on some of the confusion that my WS has that he believes it will probably work.<p>2) If a spark is generated and I realize she can commit to "us" even in bad times, what next? (I guess I cross that bridge when I get to it.)<p>3) If I have to "give up" what happens logistically (divorce etc)? and what happens if she wants to work things out later? (I guess I cross that bridge when I come to it too.)<p>4) Is part 1 a big mistake? If I work so hard to get her to go to the weekend I could be pushing her away towards the OM, LBing, and ruining Plan A. My father says that at the weekend there is no pushing just honesty.<p>Any comments?

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You know, you can't push her into the weekend. You could approach her like this though:<p>I know you feel that our realationship is pretty much over. I really hope that is not the case. I would really enjoy going to this Marriage Encounters weekend with you and I hope you will consider it. After the weekend is over, if we don't see a light at the end of the tunnel, I will peacefully agree to whatever you want. I think this would be a good way to be very, very sure this is what we each want before severing our relationship.<p>This wording runs something along the lines of "We wouldn't want to separate and divorce without being 100% sure that our relationship is truly over."<p>I don't know if a spark can be created when they are in the fog. But, you can also look at the fact that something you did once caused her to fall in love with you. A solid weekend together without the OM and you being on your best behaviour might throw some more confusion her way.<p>I don't have any answers for you, just thoughts.

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Lapine-<p>I like the way you worded that. However, I'm not going to try just yet. She has been at her mom's for a little over a week now. I feel in some ways I was a bit too pushy during Plan A while she was with me (because we would argue about what to do next.) <p>Since she has been at her mom's she has been angry with me a few times (because her parents are pissed at her and she blames me for telling/manipulating them.) She has given me the finger for shaking my head at her when she was talking about OM and she called me pathetic for calling her. On Sunday though we spoke very casually and calmly at her parents. I must be patient but it is so hard because I miss her. I want to talk to her daily but I resist because I don't want to push her away.<p>quote----------------------------------------
>I don't know if a spark can be created when they >are in the fog. But, you can also look at the >fact that something you did once caused her to >fall in love with you. A solid weekend together >without the OM and you being on your best >behaviour might throw some more confusion her >way.
quote--------------------------------------------<p>probably would but not enough for her to not want to try things with OM and if we consider it our "last try" then she may feel better about leaving me and go through with it. I'm thinking I have to wait for the weekend until she wants to try.<p>quote------------------------------------------
>I don't have any answers for you, just thoughts.
quote--------------------------------------------<p>Thank you for your thoughts. I have no answers either.<p>I'm wondering now if I am sorta in Plan B because we are separated. I hope she comes around and wakes up. It seems like just waiting around for the "affair to die a natural death" is terrible because it may not. I am/will continue to work on myself (i.e. exercise, examine what I can do better in a relationship, other goals.) I just feel sometimes that I have to let her know that I still want/love her (which I guess she knows) that I can change and be/am better than the OM. I guess since she is in the fog it won't work so I have to just wait. I wish I knew that in a few months she would be back, then the waiting would be easier. But the fact that she may be gone forever (which she has told me) makes the waiting seem like it is a waste, that instead I should be actively trying to woo her and win her back. Or give up (which I can't do right now.) <p>I'm forced to wait because things get worse if I'm too pushy with her. <p>So I wait and hope.<p>only time will tell.<p>-Heartbroken and hoping

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Hi <p>I am new to this MB discussion forum, however, I am eaxactly in the same situation as you are, My W says exactly the same things as your W. But remember this is all the blame game after the fact of INFIDELITY. I am in Plan B for last 6 weeks, and believe me it gets better every day, Plan A takes all your energy and drains out from the hole in the POT. because of the Fog, they don't seem to really grasp it. I suggest go to plan B and keep distance thats all U can do at this time.<p>Good Luck and keep patience!

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Lion-<p>thanks for the advice. I don't know though. I'm just very reluctant to try Plan B. My reasons are:<p>1) Her family is my family, I've known them all my life and I/we go 2-3 times a week to their house, her siblings/cousins are my close friends. So I and they don't want to give up our relationship just because of my marital problems. Plus, seeing them will mean I have contact with her and then it won't be a true Plan B.<p>2) Plan B is risky because it involves separation which means she may never come back (which she says) and we may never reconcile. I don't want to take that risk. Do I have a choice? If I keep in Plan A without LBing is that better than going to Plan B?<p>3) Most of our problem was initiated due to my lack of giving her affection/attention. If I go to Plan B then won't that just show in her eyes that I never cared for her because I'm stopping all communication with her?<p>hmm...

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It broke my heart when I read your first post. I am in a similar situation. My WH said late last fall that he needed to go sort his head out and completely denied my suspicions that he was having an affair with a co-worker. Finally, I discovered that it was a full blown EA/PA and that he had been telling her that he was going to be with her, his soulmate, as soon as he could sort out how to end his marriage in a thoughtful way (what a ridiculous statement). <p>I didn't know about MB or this website or anything else the day I discovered the A. But, the re-writing of history, the deception, and the cruel and thoughtless way he had been treating me for months caused me to tell him to move out on the spot. <p>Per Jennifer Harley, I have been doing planA while separated for the last four months. There are some signs that my WH is coming out of the fog. I felt and Jennifer agreed that it was important for me to do a plan A because for the six to nine months leading up to the separation and discovery of the A, I had been engaged in lots of angry outbursts and disrespectful judgements because I felt like I was losing my mind. Rather than having my WH focus on that behaviour, I needed for him to see the better side of me (plan A) and I needed to do it for myself. I was not ready to give up and I needed to be able to say I really tried to give it my all. <p>I may be going to plan B soon, but the situation has definitely improved. I am calmer. I feel as if I have really tried. I think my WH is confused and in a panic. He is finally showing remorse over what he has done.<p>I think if you can plan A for a while it is worth it for YOU. Go to plan B when you don't feel like you can withstand the pain any longer.

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unsureheart, thanks for the reply. I think you are right. I am going to continue Plan A until I can't take it anymore. However, it seems that my WS won't notice much unless I tell her (which seems to me that it invalidates it, like I'm trying to show off or something.)<p>Anyway, I was seriously hurt today. Here's an update:<p>I have continued to be working on myself, distracting myself with friends, work, and "trying" to have fun (even though my thoughts keep going round and round about her and us and the future and the past etc...) It is the worst feeling when I first wake up in the morning all alone and have been dreaming about her. I feel so empty physically inside. It is almost like I want to wake up in the morning and realize this has all been one bad dream. Anyway back to today:<p>I worked, went bike riding after work (i.e. working on myself) and came home. Honestly as much as I miss her terribly and can't wait sometimes for her to be back, when I don't see her I feel less hurt (but still lonely). Anyway, the phone rang and it was her. I decided to pick it up (meet her need for conversation.) We chatted briefly about things going on this week and weekend and I tried to be pleasant and I could tell she was too. I wished her luck at a performance she will be having. I then tried to end the conversation (so I don't seem "pathetic" like she told me I was on Saturday *and* to keep her wanting more.) <p>She wanted to keep talking and asked how I was doing. She said she cares about me and wants to see how I was holding up. She says she's very sorry for hurting me. She asked if I was still working out everyday.<p>I told her I was and mentioned my bike ride. <p>She asked if I had been on any dates yet. (Can you believe that!?! It has only been a week and two days since we've separated.) I told her no, of course not, I'm not going to break our marriage vows. She kinda laughed and told me that she used to think that way too (hinting that I will soon or something.)<p>I basically told her that I am hoping that she will want to work things out with me and stop seeing the OM. I told her I miss her and love her. I also said I'm not going to get angry with her because that will just drive her away further. She said by being nice I'm driving her away further too. So, I told her I was very angry with what she is doing, I don't support it, and in fact I hate what she is doing. However, I added that I love her and understand that things got bad for her in our marriage and want to start a new and make it better.<p>She said that she knows I'm a "good man" and said I'm "one of the few perhaps 1% who would have let her stay at the house after what she has told me." (that sounded good I guess)
But then she said "then again, that is not very healthy either." She again pointed out that our marriage ending/problems has nothing to do with the OM and "HE IS NOT THE CAUSE."<p>She mentioned that in a month or two she will be moving out of her parents. I said "to come back here?" (knowing quite well that she wasn't) and she said "no, to move out on my own." She also said she will never come back to me to work on things.<p>I asked her why.<p>She said because there are certain things that she needs to do in her life. Things such as "going to dinner with people, going to the movies, going on dates, dating different guys, etc.." that I won't let her do and neither will the OM. (hmmm?) She said that "everyone" thinks what she is doing is wrong but she doesn't care anymore what anyone thinks. She is going to do what she wants to do.<p>She said she was sorry for not being more honest with me earlier in our relationship. She was sorry for not leaving permanently the first time she left (early March). She admits that she has broken her vows and "cheated" on me. She (again) wanted to know what she would have to say/do that would drive me away (end it for me, stop my hope.) I told her I don't know. She said "you're just going to take me back?" I told her that she would have to end things with OM for us to be successful at working on things together. I told her I hoped that one day she would realize things and want to work on things (give our marriage a try again with me now aware and trying too.)<p>After we were done talking, I felt very hurt. I was back on the emotional rollercoaster again. I felt that her words scooped a chunk out of my body/soul. It was strange because the emotional hurt felt physical too. Anyway, I have thought about what she has said and wonder what her motiviation is for saying that our marriage problems are NOT because of the OM and that she wants to date others (and he won't let her either?). <p>Maybe this is the truth? I don't know but kinda doubt it because of what I know about the fog. I also think that she wants this magically, happily ever after ending with OM which includes her family accepting him (or at least she mentioned it at one time a while back.) She knows I communicate with her parents regularly and they are on my side. Perhaps she thinks that if *I* believe it is not because of OM, that I will get her parents to believe it too (which in her mind would mean that down the line she could bring OM to the family without problems.) I don't know, I'm just hypothesizing. <p>Perhaps she is just saying it to free herself from the guilt. Perhaps she really menas it or part of her does. I don't know.<p>I wonder if our chances for reconcillation/ reconnection/working things out would be better or worse if things didn't work out with OM and she decided to "date around" rather than come back to me. I wonder if I can take it or even wait that long. Again, based on previous conversations with her (when she first told me about her feelings for him before things really started between them) she was soooo infatuated with him that I wonder if she is lying now (because it contradicts other things she has said.) <p>Or maybe she thinks it will not work out with OM and just wants out of the marriage? <p>Or since she feels she is out, she'll want to date around a bit just to "make sure" or get it out of her system before she comes back to me. Who knows. I'm confused. <p>Whether our problems/separation are
"caused" by the OM or not (or whether she thinks they are or not or wants me to think so) does it make a difference for working out our marriage????<p>I think it is about OM. But if she is being honest and it really is not, what should I be doing differently if anything (something else besides Plan A and then B)?<p>Any thoughts?<p>Thanks,<p>-Heartbroken, hurt, yet still hoping

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Upon further reflection I thought of a few more positive things from her conversation with me today:<p>1) she called me (I didn't call her)
2) she asked me to call her
3) she suggested that she would come home this weekend to take care of the dog since I'm going to visit my mother out of town (this goes against her saying last week that she would never spend a night under the roof again - granted this is a minor point but it still shows how inconsistent she is with her actions and words.)<p>I interpret the above as she desires certain needs to still be met by me (regardless of her telling me its over, blah, blah, blah.) I'm hoping to continue plan A and get to meet more of her needs (like I was when she was living her the last month or two) so that when I switch to plan B and OM can't hack it, she'll come back. Unless she comes back before then to work on our marriage. <p>Wishful thinking.

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aanast -- I think you are doing pretty well for the timeframe of her moving out/your discovery of the A. <p>Yes, somedays (make that most days) you will wake up in the morning missing her and wishing this was all a bad dream. Sometimes when I'm doing something like driving my car back from the grocery store or the gym, I'll daydream that this was all just a bad dream.<p>The fog that she is in right now is driving the train. What she is saying to you about wanting to be on her own/the OM is not the cause, is EXACTLY the same thing that ALL of us have heard. It is frightening how similar all of the statements are to the BS.<p>It sounds as if she is confused. If she really wanted to walk away from you completely, she would not call you or ask how you are doing. Keep working on your planA. The reason that the WS have such as hard time with your being nice, is that she is probably feeling incredible guilt. My WH admitted about two weeks ago -- after more than 3 months of plan A -- that my being nice made him feel terrible guilt and it made it hard for him to be around me for long. He said he could not understand how I could be nice to him after what he had done/was doing. I told him I loved him and that somehow that gave me a patience and level of care for him that I never knew existed.<p>Hang in there. Post as much as you need to because sometimes writing out what you are feeling and thinking is the best medicine. <p>Many of us are in the same place. Sometimes I feel as if my body were walking around with my soul and mind looking at my body from the outside. Some days getting dressed is hard. Some days finding the strength to work on yourself is hard. <p>I know that separating while doing plan A is not the ideal situation, but I do think there is some advantage in not being around the BS that much while all of this is going on as it is so hard to keep from LBing and keep working on yourself when they are around acting like aliens have abducted their brains.<p>I hope today is better for you.

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unsureheart, thanks for the reply<p>quote------------------------------------------
>I think you are doing pretty well for the >timeframe of her moving out/your discovery of >the A.
quote------------------------------------------<p>thanks for saying that though it just seems like things are getting worse. She told me when she had feelings for OM before she told him. After the initial freakout I tried doing Plan A. Her EA turned into a PA. During this time she still had a photo of my on her desk at work and wore her wedding rings. Now she doesn't.<p>quote------------------------------------------
>The fog that she is in right now is driving the >train. What she is saying to you about wanting >to be on her own/the OM is not the cause, is >EXACTLY the same thing that ALL of us have >heard. It is frightening how similar all of the >statements are to the BS.
quote------------------------------------------<p>I would have to agree with my WS in that the OM was not the cause of all our marital problems. Her feelings for OM and the A has made us see and acknowledge the problems of our marriage. So I agree that there were problems before OM so he is not the cause, however, those problems could be worked on and cannot now that there is an OM. So OM was not the cause per se of our problems but could cause the end of our marriage.<p>>It sounds as if she is confused. If she really >wanted to walk away from you completely, she >would not call you or ask how you are doing. >Keep working on your planA.
true, I find contradictory actions and words from her all the time. However, I'm starting to feel that my Plan A is making her look at me less like an attractive choice to go if things don't work out with OM. In many ways she thinks that my wanting to work things out with her shows that I am weak, less manly, pathetic, etc. Those characteristics will not make me attractive to her. Perhaps the way I'm doing Plan A is the problem. Since she has moved out, I plan on continuing Plan A if she calls me or if she sees me. I will try not to call her. When I talk to her I will be pleasant and smile but keep it short. I will try to not talk about the future and our relationship (for the time being) because she is in a fog and we don't agree so every time we talk about it we argue and both get frustrated and upset.<p>>I hope today is better for you.<p>Thanks. I guess it was. I called my WS at work this morning to wish her luck on a performance she was practicing for for a month or two. She mentioned that she has a performance in the evening. I said I'd like to go and see it but that she probably wouldn't want me too. She said she doesn't care either way and to do what I want to do. So I said ok I want to go so I'm going but to call me if you change your mind.
I went to her work for the performance. We spoke briefly before and afterwards. We were pleasant and only spoke about the performance, etc. (not about "us".) I hugged her but could tell she felt awkward about it.<p>I was concerned that maybe she thinks I'm being needy or pathetic in going. However, I went because 1) I honestly wanted to see the performance and 2) I wanted to show her my support. I also have to admit 3) to show all her coworkers my presence and support of her (I thought this was important because she told me awhile back that she told them all that she was going to be getting a divorce, they all felt sorry for her, and kinda assumed I was the bad guy. I figured if they saw me they would think that I still want to work on things with her *and* since her A is with OM who is a coworker, it might make that more known to her coworkers/friends (which according to MB an affair is likely to die 6 months after being revealed to family and friends.)<p>Maybe today came across as too pushy for her, I don't know, I hope not. I don't plan on talking to her too much from now on unless she calls me etc.. (at least to see how it goes.) I probably won't talk to her until the weekend when she comes home to watch the dog. I have now began to suspect that maybe she will bring OM here. grrr... <p>well, I'm just going to keep on writing here. It helps to ramble and get things off my chest whether anyone is reading or not. Thanks to those who are and are giving their 2 cents worth.

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Just checking in to see how you are doing today. I am torn between being available when my WH wants to talk and not being available. I guess that is pretty common and it sounds as if you are in the same place.<p>I think attending her performance was a good thing; especially if one of her issues before the A was lack of attention (I can't remember if that was an issue). I think it's best to put everything in your plan A through the filter of "is this something that my WH/WW thought was missing or a need I was not meeting".

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hi aanast2<p>Well I am new to this all, I have had my share of grief, but then again we all have. I have read your story and I hope you dont mind me sharing my thoughts. Please know I have no right to and I am not trying to criticize, judge or even put myself in your shoes. I am just telling you what I think and feel.
To begin, let me just say that I know the days can just seem to float by and only one thing clouds your mind. What can you do? How can you resolve this problem? Where and what is the solution? Questions that we may never be able to answer seem to consume our thoughts.
One side to it is yes you were in love and it was pure beauty. You were truly happy and the future seemed only bright. That in itself will never change. Those memories can and will linger despute the current situation. If that turns out to be all (and I hope it doesn't but if it does) what else can we do but be happy and thankful it happened. Now to change from being so pessimistic let me try to express something. I personally think you are doing as much as possible. You are making the effort, re-thinking yourself, trying to change and succeeding. If the marriage will be saved it will take that much from both sides. You are doing your part. Is it too late? It may be for her and in that case there is not much more to be done. You cannot force anything, you can only give of yourself. Just make sure not to give too much that one day you wake up and you find you have nothing left. If she believes she is following her heart, then you must respect that. Even if it means understanding and accepting that the marriage is over. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] And that is heart-breaking but all too often true. It may not be and most likely (especially in this case) is not any fault of yours. This you must understand. So after babling somewhat aimlessly (sorry) what advice do I have for you now... She is definetely worth the effort, but know when to give up. Only you can know but make sure you do. Other than that, she is blind if she doesn't see your love, and if she does and just can't return it- a marriage, yet not necessarily a friendship may be lost.
Well I hope I have not saddened you. Hope is strength and its the last thing to go. It seems now no one knows what the future will hold. I just hope she has felt all the feeling you have expressed on this website. Tell her to search your eyes--she will know how you feel. Tell her then to search her own. Then leave her alone until she is sure of what she wants and of how to go about it. The way things are not are just to painful for both of you and if she cares then she will understand what needs to change.
I hope I was of some help. Feel free to be honest in a response.
My hopes are with you,
one who cares

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aanast -- Just bumping up to see how you are doing. Are you ok (well as ok as we all can be in these situations)?

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Wonder how you are doing? <p>Next time she says something about you not acting like a man - tell her you are trying to act like Jesus Christ would act if he were in your place. And say that you think he was very much a man. <p>Wishing the best for you. It would be nice if we could take away each others pain and make everything better. We can't but we do care. <p>SS

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Hi everyone,<p>Thanks for following up with me.<p>>one who cares
>Questions that we may never be able to answer >seem to consume our thoughts.<p>yes. Though the more I keep myself busy with friends and work the less I think about the same thoughts over and over. When I am alone (especially before I go to sleep or when I first wake up) is when I dwell on the issue.<p>>One side to it is yes you were in love and it >was pure beauty. You were truly happy and the >future seemed only bright. That in itself will >never change. Those memories can and will linger >despute the current situation. If that turns out >to be all (and I hope it doesn't but if it does) >what else can we do but be happy and thankful it >happened.<p>You're right. I know whatever happens I will be ok and get through this. However, I'm still hit with shock every now and again as to how she could throw away our relationship just like that. I guess I know the reason is because she has someone to go to which makes it easy for her. But still... <p>
>Tell her to search your eyes--she will know how >you feel. Tell her then to search her own. <p>I tried this. She says she knows I love her. She says she just can't give "us" another try because she doesn't love me anymore. So I wait.

>unsureheart
>still seeking <p>thanks for checking up on me.<p>As for an update, there is nothing new really. She stayed at our house for the weekend (her offer) because I was visiting my mom and the dog would be alone. She was mad that I stayed an extra day at my mom's with "her" car. Anyway, when I returned, we were pleasant. She let me briefly massage her and we joked a bit. She tried to take off my wedding ring and told me not to wear it. Then finally she changed her mind and said I'd have better luck meeting women with it on. (?) She told me her dad spoke with her about "giving me another try" and she said she just can't. I again told her that I want to work on things, it is clear we have major problems in our marriage, and if we try it can work out for us. She asked how I "knew" this, I said I don't but there is nothing to lose in trying. She said yes there is. I asked what. She said "time." I asked her why she is in such a big hurry. She said she wants to get on with her life. She said she has become much stronger not seeing me in the last week. She also let me know that in a month or two she will be moving out of her parents house into her own apartment and will divorce me in August when she has enough money saved. She mentioned that she has decided that she doesn't want anything (furniture etc) from the house anymore but would expect me to give her the monetary value of half of those items. I told her I didn't want to talk about this stuff.<p>In the course of our conversation, she seemed very interested in who knew what was going on with us (specifically if my friends and parents knew and how much they knew.) I asked her if she was to come back and work on things would that matter. She said yes it would. Then she said no because she obviously doesn't care what people think now and if she really wanted to come back she wouldn't care what people thought.<p>Our conversation started to go back to the same old circle, back and forth. I should have ended it but I got caught up emotionally. I got choked up. I basically told her that all I can do is hope that she will change her mind and be the good person that I know she is and that I married. I told her that all I can do is wait for her to realize things or for things to end with OM. After I said that, she said I was pathetic again. I asked why and she said because I'm stupid to wait for her to be done with OM. She also told me that one day I will thank her for this. She told me that she doesn't even trust herself anymore. She added that she will not be making any commitments to OM or anyone for long time. But she also said that if in 5 years she is happily remarried with children, I will see that I am wrong. <p>I saw her briefly again over the memorial day weekend because I spent time with her family (who are practically my family) at her parent's house (where she is staying.) Anyway, at one point I noticed her all alone in her old bedroom sitting quietly in the dark. I asked her if everything was ok. She replied yeah. I asked her if she wanted to be alone. She said yes, so I let her be.<p>Later we spoke on an off while around her family (some of whom know our situation, some who don't) while playing games, bbqing, or watching tv, etc. For the most part it was trivial conversation. I could tell that overall she was trying her best to avoid me, and most of the time her facial expression was that of unhappiness.<p>I was pretty shaken up most of the day Tuesday (even though I didn't see her) because of how real all of this was again shown to me by her actions and attitude towards me seeing her over the weekend. I feel much better Wednesday and today because I'm trying not to dwell on it and keep busy. Honestly, I'm still at the point of trying to wait patiently and hoping that she will "snap out of it" sooner rather than later. I know were headed towards a divorce. I know it is a piece of paper but at the same time, it seems that it would be a bit ridiculous to be waiting and hoping after that. Part of me is trying to move on to a certain extent now (without success.) Even though I tell myself that I want a woman who loves me, that I can trust, who wouldn't be cruel to me, who would be honest with me, and who would stick with it especially when the times are tough, I still want my wife. Right now and for the last few months, she hasn't been that woman. I'm hoping she is still. We'll see. I guess in a way it is in the hands of fate. If we are meant to be, she will snap out of it and want to work on things and I will still want to when she does.<p>Thanks for your support and listening out there.<p>-Heartbroken and still hoping and waiting

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here's another update from last night (Thursday)<p>My wife stopped by the house to "get some things."
I tried to not talk about our situation (because whenver we do it is exactly the same words out of both our mouths and is just frustrating) but of course we went back to it. She started off by telling me that she wants certain items from the house etc... I told her that I want everything. She said I'd have to give her money then.<p>We then went into the circular conversation. I said I want to try to work on things and see what happens but she must get rid of OM and want to try. She said she doesn't want to try, doesn't want to get rid of OM, etc.<p>I did find some inconsistencies in her comments.
At one point in the conversation, she said that she wants to date lots of different people and she is going to get her own apartment this summer to do so. Later in the evening,r I said that I obviously can't force her to want to work on things and wouldn't if I could, and so I understand that, for herself, she needs to be on her own to figure out things. She then immediately replied with her wanting the apartment so OM can come over. She said she is not sure if she will have a roommate or not (depending on her financial situation.)<p>She mentioned that she spends nights alone and lonely because her parents control her. She says she wishes people would respect her wishes becasue she is a 27 year old adult. She says right now it is horrible because she can't see him because she is at her parents house (her choice btw) and her mom calls to check up on her and fights with her everyday about OM and going back to me etc. She mentioned that OM has started working a second job evenings so she also can't see him. She mentioned that he too has lost a lot of weight as a result of the stress this is causing him (like I care!) She said that he has told her that he will wait for her as long as it takes. She said she knows he is such a nice guy etc...(just like she knows it about me) and if they don't work out, it will be because of her and not him. And she said his family doesn't and won't take their relationship seriously until she divorces me. She added that her mom mentions me all the time etc. and she says she tells her mom that she has spoken to lawyers already about a divorce (but then she told me not to tell her but that she really hasn't yet.) ???<p>I tried to not cry in front of her but eventually I couldn't help it. I told her how much I miss her, and how much it hurts when I remember how much she really, REALLY (and I mean REALLY) LOVED ME and showed me how much. She agreed that she did. I told her how I felt guilty for not doing my part to keep her loving me. I added that I don't blame myself for the affair, she choose that, she was dishonest with me. <p>She then told me that this whole things is not easy for her either. She said it is not easy to throw away her house, and all the things in it, and to give up her family and parents. I can tell that she wants her family to accept OM but they won't.<p>I tried to change the conversation eventually because it was going in circles. I emphasized that I wanted her to know that when/if she sees that she wants to work on things with me and/or doesn't want the OM or whatever, to know that I want to change and that for us to even try to see what will happen with us (if it'll even work) she must quit her job and give him up.<p>She thought I was weak for wanting her after she has admitted a PA to me and for me saying in a way that I'm waiting for her to finish with OM. She said for me to just give up now because she is sure he is the one and she repeated that even if she wanted to that she CAN'T give him up. What they have because it was such a strong emotional connection is/was IRRESISTABLE. <p>I asked her about her calling me "pathetic." She said I'm not and she knows that I love her. She admitted that in a way she feels guilty that she knows I'm hurting and she is trying to get me to "give her up" because it will be easier for her.<p>Other problems she mentioned that our marriage had were that she organized everything, planned everything, put all the energy and enthusiasm into everything, and she picked out everything (our house, cars, furniture, etc.) She was interested in our life together and I never seemed to care or show interest. (Is this a guy thing?) I do care and told her that I can work on it if we work things out. I told her that there are many things we can do to fix our marriage, including counseling and other things. She said she wouldn't want to do counseling becasue she is lazy. I said there are plenty other things too. She said like what and I replied that there is no point explaining it now since she is so "sure" about her new "true love" and that I will not try to "educate" her now but show her my research, etc (aka MB, etc) when the time comes.<p>She also said that I was never "tough" enough with her. I let her get anything she wants, trival things, etc. and in a way I am letting her do this now (with OM.) I emphasized that I do not want her seeing OM, that it is killing my love for her, it hurts me, I hate it, etc. but that I can't stop her and only hope that she stops.<p>After the initial round and round conversation (with emotions - which btw, at one point she seemed to almost cry while I was upset and we hugged - because she is pitying me), she asked me for some help with driving to Walgreens and getting a car wash, cleaning the car etc. I went along and tried to be pleasant and even joked with her (once about our situation which she laughed but said, how can you joke about this? I replied that if we are to get over it and work on things I can't be holding it over your head forever.) I think by spending the time with her I was meeting her needs.<p>Then back at the house she was sore from cleaning the car and I gave her a massage. She said no one can do it like I can (or something like that.) Things got a bit intimate (hugging, holding, and almost kissing) but she pulled away. She said she feels guilty as much as she likes it. She said she does not want me to have false hope. I told her I don't, believe me I don't (I honestly only did it to meet her needs.) She also said that she knows OM would feel bad if he knew what she was doing with me.<p>Before she left I told her that I can't be this way forever and that someday I would have to stop all contact with her (aka plan b) if I'm ever going to get over her (as she keeps telling me she wants me to.) We agreed in the meanwhile when we see each other (if she comes over for things, calls, or I'm visting her family on weekends) that we would be pleasant and not talk about our issue until something changes (since we both can't agree and keep saying the same things which is annoying her and making me distraught.) We'll see how that goes.<p>In the meanwhile then, I plan on plan A-ing for a little while longer. Her being out of the house in a way helps me because the days I don't see her, she doesn't hurt me and so my lovebank isn't be reduced. I actually feel better a day or two without seeing her. So far for the most part she has been contacting me (which I guess is good) at least once a week or so. I'm going to call the Harleys next week to figure out when it would be best for Plan B. For myself I can keep Plan A for awhile I feel. We are at the end of 3 months of her telling me she had feelings for OM (their PA started maybe a month or so after that but she and a friend of hers knew about her "feelings" months before which my wife has admitted and said in a way she was trying to "sabatoge" our marriage in Jan/Feb of this way to drive me away and make it easier for her to be with OM - yet she keeps saying OM has nothing to do with it. Ha!)<p>Anyway, as for Plan B, I'm holding off. If she moves into an apartment in August as she plans to do (which seems very likely) I'm sure it will be all new and exciting for her initially so I'm wondering if I should Plan B around then, before, or after. We'll see.<p>One last thing, my wife as she was leaving last night, admitted to me that the real reason she came over was to see me. She was feeling really bad about things. (hmm? guilt? miss me? needs not met by OM?) She kissed me on the cheeck goodbye and told me that she cares about me and loves me like a family member. I told her I want more than that.<p>In some ways there is nothing new between us, in other ways I see her fog and confusion. I have to admit that what gives me hope is that she really REALLY did love me (more than one could imagine) and that most affairs end (I read somewhere that the chances of affairs with coworkers/close friends surviving is like 3-5%.) It is not my only reason for hoping but it helps to think about things like. I also feel hope in knowing that eventually, if things don't work out, that I will be happy too. <p>Any comments? <p>-Still heartbroken and yes still hoping

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Hi again aanast2,
Well I must tell you that in reading your story my heart goes out to you. I wanted to share with you an experience Ive had and maybe it will give you another view of things.
Being a woman, I can almost relate to your wife though that may not be a good thing. There was a time when I broke it off with someone very important to me for OM. Lucky enough for me he never gave up and we eventually rekindled our love. But during that time when I wanted all that was between us to end- I believe I was not in love with him and that I didn't want to be. I cared for him yes so much (how could we have had the relationship that we had if I didnt) but I didn't want it anymore. It hurt me so much knowing the pain I was putting him through because I cared for him but at that point I was so confused and there were times where my wanting him to feel better and be happy again turned into physical affection and looking back that gave him the wrong message that i had intended. Anyway perhaps I have confused you now by being too vague. I hurt him but I was hurting myself too without realizing it. Getting back together was the best thing that ever happened to me.
Anyway true love shines through and whatever will be will be. But you were right to say whatever happens you will eventually find happiness-- that shows great strength (I wonder if she knows it).
What ever doesn't kill you makes you stronger- we all learn that sooner or later. But I need to say that there is a very important question you must ask yourself relatively soon. Have you yet passed the point where if she ever did come back it would never be the same??? You say how much she REALLY loved you. Is that simply a past tense thing or is it possible to return to that? Lets say she did turn around, realise her mistakes and love you again. Has the betrayal and pain you have gone through for what in my opinion seems like too long been too much and if she ever did come back the trust would be too difficult to rebuild and it would never be the same-- I ask you? If so then perhaps plan B is in order... If no ( not yet) then there is still hope and work to be done!
And in that case what I would like to pass on to you is a few ideas that I have discovered really help. Just some simple ways to get by. (note: please feel free to pick and choose and just basically ignore me if you wish--I tend to ramble sometimes [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Anyway as I was saying there are small ways to get by. Just by thinking of your situation from different views and adapting other peoples art. For example, songs, poems, even movies. See if they relate to you and then what you think about the message they send. I have found some poems by a greek writer Cavafy to be very deep and yet open. They have been translated from greek and I know it must lose so much from the translation but let me give you an example:
Che fece... Il Gran Rifiuto By Cavafy<p>To certain people there comes a day
when they must say the great Yes of the great No.
He who has the Yes ready within him
reveals himself at once, and saying it he crosses over
to the path of honor and his own conviction.
He who refuses does not repent. Should he be asked again,
he would say No again. And yet that No-
the right No-crushes him for the rest of his life.<p>With that I leave you for now. I hope things turn out for the best but never lose strength in yourself.
Here if you need me,
One who cares

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aanast -- First, I would go and read the posts from spacecase who has been doing this for a while now. I think the title of his post over in Gen QII is affairs that don't end or something like that.<p>You are expecting too much too fast from your WW. I did too, but now realize that I have to look for progress on a longer time frame. I am not the world's most patient person and expected my WH to have some kind of epiphany and just get it right away that what he was doing was wrong. It just doesn't work that way or that quickly. <p>I know it is hard. I am approaching just over four months since discovery and cannot believe I put up with this baloney for this long. What I keep reminding myself is that it must have taken a long time to get here -- the deterioration of our marriage (although that is never an excuse for an affair) and what is one more month in the scheme of my marriage. <p>Everything your WW is saying is what they all say and it makes no sense. I kept trying to make sense out of what my WH was saying and after reading on here and every other book on infidelity I can find I came to the conclusion that it will never make sense. <p>I don't really have any pearls of wisdom here other than to tell you that you a) have to be patient in the face of all this, b) look at everything in small bits/steps -- both your improvements and self-examination and her reactions, and c) seek out more advice over on General QII forum here. <p>You can do this. It sounds a bit hokey, but I start out each day looking in the newspaper for stories that remind me how thankful I should be for everything I have in life. It gets me through the day even when my WH is being a complete alien and pain in the @SS. Yes, what he is doing is cruel and thoughtless. Yes, I am in a lot of pain. At the same time, I am healthy and have a great family. I want my WH and believe there is still a chance. But, I also know that I am good person and am doing the right and kind thing by continuing to try. I am giving myself six months of plan A and some days I do not think I am going to make it.<p>The other piece of advice I will give you is to read Divorce Remedy by Michelle Weiner-Davis. The 180 degree concept and some others have helped me lately. It seems as if you and your WW keep having the same conversation. Maybe it would help if you don't engage in that conversation for a while. It isn't going to change anything while she is in her A and it will just make you crazy.<p>It is so hard because I know you want answers and remorse today. It just isn't likely and you need to not focus on getting answers, timeframes, and remorse from her right now. Keep trying to plan A if you can take it, which I think you can.

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