Marriage Builders®
Hi, I appreciate any comments/advice/anything you can offer me. Please!

My wife and I agree that at one time in our marriage we were in love, very happily married, and had something special. Our families have known each other since we were kids. We went to the same grade school together. We have been friends for 18 years, been together romatically for 7 (the last 4 of which we have been married).

For the last 6 months or so, she seemed very unhappy and would be mad/disrespectful towards me whatever I would do. I would just ignore it or sometimes try to make her happy without longterm success. She would occasionally even say she thinks things are seriously looking bad, but I dismissed her comments as just something she said in the moment. Looking back now there are many, many times I did neglect her. I have so much regret for not showing her affection, attention, and for ignoring her so I could pursue my own hobbies. I was a selfish taker and didn't deposit into the lovebank often. I love her but did not put motion into my emotion. I had good intentions but we all know where those roads lead.

At the end of Feb. of this year my wife and I were going to go out and have a night of fun (movies, dinner) because things were getting so bad and we both agreed we wanted some fun. She never showed up after work. I waited all night and called the whole family worried sick about her. Instead she came home at 3AM. I found out she was with a coworker. After persistent questioning, that night she admitted it. I told her out of anger that our marriage was over. She cried and said she was sorry and wanted to fix things. Realizing that things might be more wrong than I cared to admit, I forgave her the next day and we carried on like nothing happened. Big mistake.

The next week she told me she that she has feelings for that coworker and wants to be separated from me. We fought, I blew up (lost some serious lovebank points.) She stayed for two weeks at her parents but came back because her mom gave her hell - still does (a lot of her family seems to think I'm Mr. niceguy and she's crazy) and I asked her back because I was depressed and couldn't eat.

For the past few weeks we have lived together and are at a stalemate. She rarely comes home except to sleep and says she goes to the beach or library to think. Because of her extreme honesty thus far, I believe that she is not seeing her coworker outside of work and has not physically cheated on me with him.

I have been reading practically everything on this website as well as Dr. Phil McGraw's Relationship Rescue. I don't want to lose my wife. I love her and want to meet her needs that I wasn't fulfilling. I have in the past and know I wasn't even trying to meet her needs. I know I can make her happy. I want her to give me one more try.

She says she has tried for a year and does not want to try anymore. I asked her what does she have to lose in trying and she said "her freedom...her coworker". I tried to reason with her that if she tries and things work with us that she won't have feelings for him and if they don't work with us she'll be more sure about leaving me. She hates it when I try to "convince her" so I'm stopping.

She says she is "pretty sure" that she will divorce me because she cannot bear to give up her feelings for her coworker. She feels that since she met him years ago that there has always been a spark, she's thought he was attractive, he reminds her of her dad, he reminds her of me!, there is chemistry between them. She recently told him her feelings and he told her that he has the same for her but respects marriage too much to act on it now. She needs to figure out her marriage situation first. She has also told him that if she divorces me and starts a relationship with him that she is worried that she will screw things up with him like she has done with me. He and I have both told her that we want her to be happy.

My wife has agreed to read Relationship Rescue and see what happens partly because she is not 100% sure that she and I are "over" and mostly because she thinks somehow it will let me down easy. Her main conflict is that she does not want to see me hurt (or him hurt). Everyday she asks me if I will be ok and find happiness, or what will I do if we get divorced...or she tells me I'm handsome and will have no trouble finding someone else. I tell her I don't know or maybe. Honestly, I don't want to think about that now because our marriage is not over and I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. She keeps wanting to talk about how we will split that house, finances, where I will move, etc. We do not have children.

I have explained the concept of meeting each other's needs (something shared by this website and Dr. Phil's book.) At the end of the book, there is a two week period in which we share with eachother our needs and list specific ways to meet them and then do it each day and talk about our feelings at night. My hope is that somehow this experience will deposit enough love points in the bank and my wife and I will have rekindled enough of a spark that we can separate from this coworker forever and start rebuilding.

I have asked her to move away (to Florida her favorite place or anywhere) for a month or even a week to work on just us (without a third person) to see if we still have something. She says she cannot, that she will be sad and depressed, that she cannot give up her feelings, that in some ways she almost feels like she will be cheating on herself and on the coworker.

I trust my wife and believe her when she tells me that no physical affair has started between her and the coworker. However, she says she almost thinks that she is in love with him and that she feels that she has known him all her life. She says in the last year she has had thoughts of him on occasion but suppressed them because of feeling guilty and knowing she had me. If only I knew then, I could have realized how much of a selfish jerk I've been and started meeting her needs. Looking back I see all the warning signs! I hope it is not too late.

Often, I feel desperate. She has told me about her conversations with him, her eating lunch at work with him, about his life. It hurts me soooo much. I resist acting irrationally with any more hurt toward her or outburts (I don't want make any more withdrawals from the lovebank.) Lately, we can't help but talk about the situation and aruge about it. We end up both getting frustrated and repeating the same thing. She says she will not give him up or her feelings for him but doesn't want me hurt but can't give "us" one more try or one more honest try without thinking about him. I keep repeating that I want her to give me a try and I want to meet her needs.

I am going to avoid this argument as it too is taking away from the lovebank. Other times when we are together we get along and even laugh and have some intimate contact. She says being at home with me, sleeping in the same bed, touching, etc... is just confusing her. I think that means that the lovebank deposits are growing and there is hope. She says she is pretty sure she knows her decision will be to leave me and this "confusion" is not good because it is keeping her from what she really wants. I will try to focus on having those happy times together and hope that the lovebank will be refilled and we can go from there.

It is very likely though that my wife will decide to not give him up even if her feelings for me grow. She has considered even moving away from both of us to think and then come back and make a decision. She will most likely *not* do this. What she will probably do is divorce me after finishing reading the Dr. Phil book if we even last that long (a month tops she says because living in this indecision/situation is tearing her apart.) Yet, other times she has hinted that maybe we could just be roommates if she decides things are all over. She admits she is confused at times.

More than anything, I do not want a divorce and I do not want to lose her. I obviously also don't want her to have an affair. I could live with her "taking a break" from me but I know that separation will lead to a divorce or an affair. I could maybe survive an affair because I know they don't last (but even that sounds crazy and I can't believe I'm considering staying in the marriage if she did that). I HIGHLY doubt she will have an affiar and will most likely divorce me first becasue a) that's what her coworker wants and b) we always agreed that we would never cheat on each other and would always tell each other first.

Also, based on my research I have told her that statistically most new relationships that start during a marriage or are the cause of a divorce do not work. She says she knows that and that should not be a reason for her to deny her feelings and try. She also didn't appreciate me trying to use scare tactics. I'm going to stop that, at the time I told her that as her friend I'm worried about her. She feels like I'm dismissing her real feelings and capabilities as an individual. I will stop doing that now.

I know I'm rambling here but I have no one to really talk too. All my friends and family are too closely involved and they don't have sound advice (she feels betrayed that I told her family about the coworker and that they side with me). I feel her family is my family and didn't know what else to do. My wife talks with and gets her advice from the coworker and also a female coworker (who btw is in an unhappy marriage) who is friends with both of them and wants them and me to be "happy" whatever happens.

My plan is to:
a) stop all conflict (i.e. disagreement about where our marriage is headed)
b) be her friend for as long as possible - have fun during the time we are together at home - adding more deposits to the lovebank (I want this, she wants to be my friend perhaps even if we're divorced she said, I believe it is something we were always good at and need to be to have a good marriage, she believes that maybe friends is all we were meant to be - she thinks we got married too young and she only did it to please her parents because it was so big and "fairy tale.")
c) find out her needs using the Dr. Phil book and meet them (even if she says she does not want to meet mine).
d) refrain from being negative, letting my emotions cause any withdrawls from the lovebank

I'm worried that that is not enough.

I would like some advice as to what to do. Above all else (even an affair), I do not want a divorce. I love this woman. I know her more than anyone and she knows me. We are/were best friends forever. I honestly believe that I can make her happier than anyone especially someone she says she hardly knows but feels a special something. She has even asked me if things don't work if maybe in a few years she could come back to me and start again. I don't want that! I know there are no guarantees or anything but I want to make sure I'm doing everything possible to save our marriage.

Am I on the right track?

Please help.


-Hearbroken yet hopeful

<small>[ September 08, 2002, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: aanast2 ]</small>
I forgot to add that another reason why my wife does not want to try is that she says she does not love me and is not in love with me anymore. She says she cares about me but that is all.
She also says that she probably will only work another year at her job either way becasue she wants to start her own business and be financially self-sufficient. Her coworker has to support his mother and sibilings and does not make as much as my wife or myself does. He told her that she should not let our house and money influence my wife's decision. <p>Thanks for your help.
Just an update for anyone out there listening. Please let me know if I'm not doing something that I should to save my marriage!<p>
As usual this week my wife has been coming home late, we speak for awhile. I ask her about her day etc. Then we go to sleep. <p>Last night she was upset because her mother called her up and chastised her for not coming home everyday and for not trying to make her marriage work and told her that they would never accept anyone else but me.<p>My wife's parents have a strong influence over her. She does not want to let them down. She said she almost considered saying she'd work on the marriage because it would be the easy thing to do but not right for me (!?) <p>My wife also feels that the new me (positive, loving, understanding, doesn't question where she has been all day everyday, trusting, giving her massages, etc makes no sense to her.
She thinks either I *really* love her -or- I'm really stupid.
She reminded me that she is no longer mine and she desires someone else.
In a nice way, I told her I love her and I've been doing research, reading websites, Phd's articles, etc and I'm trying to save our marriage. I told her that even though it will be painful for her at first, for our marriage to work she needs to never see her coworker ever again and to try with me. She didn't seem upset when I told her that but didn't respond.<p>She says the way I have been acting recently isn't very manly. She admits she considers taking advantage of me. I asked her what her needs are and I will try my best to fulfil her. I asked her if she wanted me to show tough love. She didn't answer.<p>Am I on the right track? Should I just continue to be nice and hope she will come around? Or am I postponing the inevitable (her divorcing me)?<p>all thoughts/questions are welcome.<p>Thanks,<p>-Heartbroken & hopeful
aanast2,<p>One thing you should understand. Your W is having an affair. It is called an emotional affair and you will soon learn that it is worse than a physical affair and certainly a one night stand. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>By all measure she has given herself to the OM. THat is the sad but true fact, the physical part will be the last, but the heart and mind are more important. So continue your Plan A but also read up on Plan B, because you may need to move to that. Neither of these plans are meant to get her out of the affair. But they are meant to help you see what you need to improve and give your W a safe place to come when/if the affair dies.<p>It sounds as if you are doing a pretty good job of it. <p>Next, do not "educate" your W. It won't work and in fact it will make it worse. If she fights you now one say the MB approach she will be less likely to consider it if you two move into recovery. Educate yourself, but don't educate where with anything statistics, stories, articles, none of it.<p>Must go, but do hang in there.<p>God Bless,<p>JL
JL-<p>Thanks for your reply and support. It really helps. You are absolutely right, my W is having an affair (emotional). I assume you mean it is worse than a physical affair/one night stand because it is deeper and could lead to a permanent relationship with her and the OM.<p>>quote
If she fights you now one say the MB approach she will be less likely to consider it if you two move into recovery.
>quote<p>That makes sense, I will just be a new person rather than try to explain to her that such and such tells me this or that. Btw, what is the MB approach??<p>
I have one more question, it seems likely that my wife will move out and/or divorce me. Does that automatically make things Plan B? If I don't see her then it can't do a Plan A right?<p>I don't want a divorce. She does. Maybe if she pushes I should agree to a separation (even though I know that she will continue the affair and separations lead to divorce) in hopes that the affair will die a natural death in 6 months and she'll feel better about coming back to that safe place (Plan B) if we are still "married"???<p>She wants to be with him and not me more than anything so I believe she will. However, he wants her to figure out the marriage thing first. So, I think she will want a divorce asap so she can be with him on his terms. Perhaps if we don't divorce and she rushes into things with him anyway (more fog) the affair will die sooner?<p>any thoughts?<p>Thanks,<p>-Heartbroken yet hopeful
Morning aanast2. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Btw, what is the MB approach??<hr></blockquote><p>
I'd suggest reading more on Plan A and B from the homepage links on this site.<p>I would also suggest talking to one of the Harley's, if possible. In fact, I would highly recommend it.<p>The thought, IMHO, is that though we cannot control others, we can change our part of the pattern. This site describes some of the changes we can make. If we change our patterns, our behaviours, the withdrawn spouse ( WS) may choose to change their patterns as well.<p>I have been where you are, it is very tough. It is tough to do a good plan A, not educate or beg,etc. To focus on yourself when you strongly feel the need to administer to your marriage. ( BTW, "working" on yourself, your set of skills, will help your relationship.)<p>A little help will help. Call the Harley's.
Family Man-<p>Thanks for your reply.<p>I just realized that MB stands for marriage builders. I have been reading this site and been making changes with myself to help the relationship.<p>My problem is that I feel like I should be doing more to actively "save" our marriage before it is "officially" over (i.e. divorce.) I know a divorce is a piece of paper but it is still significant to my wife and I and is the green light for her to make her emotional affair a physical one.<p>I understand that most affairs die naturally after 6 months. I just want to know if there is anything *I* can do or say that can stop it before it starts and becomes physical. Anything I can do to stop a divorce.<p>I am doing a Plan A. I still feel like I can be doing more (I feel like I'm sitting around waiting for the inevitable - i.e. her to act on her desire and get the courage to divorce me.) In many ways I feel that I have false hope that she will separate from the OM completely and try to work on things (especially since she has told me about apartments she is looking for, that she longs to be with him, loves him, and tells me to my face that now she knows for sure that she wants a divorce and asks me what else can she say or do so I will know it is over.)<p>I still have some unanswered questions.
I probably will call the Harleys.<p>I will never agree to a divorce (is that a lovebuster?)
I think that the OM wants her to get one first before they get physical. Perhaps if we don't divorce and she rushes into things with him anyway (more fog) the affair will die sooner?<p>Should I agree to a separation with the thinking that if the affair dies, she'll feel better about coming back since we are still "married"?<p>And the most important question is how do I do a Plan A without lovebusting if she files for a divorce, tries to sell the house, etc... She wants me to participate in that but I feel that in doing so I would be letting her know that what she is doing is ok or I am giving up. She will get angry if I refuse to cooperate and that may be her last memory of me if she doesn't see me for a long time (which is kind of like her choosing Plan B for me.)<p>I want to try Plan A for six months but how does that work if I am not seeing her at all (i.e. we get divorced?) <p>Confused,<p>Hearbroken and still a bit hopeful
Just an update what has been a rough week. In many ways things have gone from bad to worse. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>As I've stated for the past few weeks my wife comes home late, we speak briefly and then go to sleep. She claims to be either working out at the gym or "reflecting" at the beach about things by herself. I try to give her as much positivity and attention as possible and hope she notices the new me. At the same time, I know that we argue and go around in circles about our future ("to be or not to be") and I get pushy and try to "educate." <p>Well, Wednesday I talked to Jennifer Harley. She basically confirmed what I've read here. She said that everything my wife says is just her trying to rationalize things but she is in the fog and it won't make sense because it doesn't make sense. She also told me that I'm on the road to a divorce. She also told me that the unfortunate bonus (and she emphaized unfortunate) of a Plan B is that over time I will come to realize that I am better off without her, and would rather have someone I can trust who won't betray me. Overall the conversation didn't give me much new insight but confirmed what I knew about Plan A and encouraged me to keep Plan A going as long as possible (because the affair -hopefully- will die a natural death soon.) Jennifer also laughed when I told her that the OM was a janitor (she said "why didn't you say so... he won't meet her financial needs".) My problem with that is I don't want a woman who wants me for my money but I guess if that is a start for my wife to see the "truth" and leave him then we can work on the rest.<p>Thursday came and my wife came home early. I thought great more time for Plan A-ing with her. She noticed my muscles (I've been working out) and agreed to eat dinner (I would cook). Well after I mowed the lawn, she said she was going to meet one of her girlfriends. Somehow I knew she was lying. After a bit I decided to drive to the beach and see if I'd find her reflecting. Well I found her with the OM. I just kept driving but they both saw me too. I was extremely hurt by this. I guess I knew my wife was lying all this time about being alone reflecting but it really hurt seeing it (rather than her telling me or hinting at it.) Anyway, I came home late that night and ignored her (she wanted to hug me and console me.) <p>Friday, we spoke and I restated my desire for her to leave OM and that knowing/seeing them together is killing my love for her and our marriage. She said that is what she wants. Her parents saw me later that night and saw how upset I was and they called her and threatened her, yelled at her, etc.. based on the little truth they know. My wife blamed me for all of that and told me she hates me.<p>Saturday morning my wife said she was leaving for good. I suggested a temporary solution (us living together still until we figure out a better solution - in hopes of being able to Plan A as long as possible for the affair to die.) She agreed but after speaking with her girlfriend (who is friends with OM) she said she is moving into her parents house Sunday for sure. She said it is wrong for her to be with him and come home to me, her husband. She said it is wrong for her to still wear her wedding ring and hold her boyfriend's hand. I think she feels guilty that I saw them together and know. She admitted that if I hadn't that she would still be living with me. I told her that just because she is no longer living with me or wearing the wedding ring, it is still wrong, it is still hurting me, and she should stop. She just got upset. She then got angry about how I'm trying to confuse her, trying to manipulate and control her (she claimed I always did in our marriage), and she wants me to sell the house and give her her share of the money asap because she doesn't want to be in her parents house for more than 2 weeks. I told her to give me time. I don't want to rush into things and I need time to think about what I want to do (i.e. keep the house and pay her what she is due.) <p>Saturday night she said would be the last time I would see her under the roof and it really got to me. We sorta said our goodbyes. She told me that she loves me and cares for me. She said our marriage was great and had love but we became disconnected. She said she needs passion, excitement, and romance and not just friendship and security. She says she has made plans with OM. I asked her if she would come back if things didn't work out with OM and she said probably...maybe but she is sure it will work. She then asked if I'm giving her permission to be with him by asking that type of question. I said of course not and I reiterated how my love is fading and for her to give "us" another try. She says she has tried to many times and she cannot and will not again. She also expressed her belief that people cannot fall in love again after being in love once and falling out of love. She also said that despite me wanting a new marriage that "leopards can't change their spots" I disagreed. Humans aren't leopards. I left to see my mom but came back because I forgot the cellphone. She was crying when I returned. I asked her why. She says because she is scared about making it on her own. She said she is also angry at me, angry at her parents, and angry at the OM because he has nothing to lose. hmmm...?<p>
Sunday she moved into her parents. I helped her load the car reluctantly. I was really torn. Do I help her and meet a need but give her the impression that I am supporting her leaving or do I not and piss her off. I told her my dilemma and helped her anyway. On the ride, she told me that she feels OM in every pore of her body. We then had a long conversation with her parents. She claimed to them that our marriage was over a long time before OM. She told them that she will be getting her own apartment and is doing this because she wants to be single and date men (she never had this in life) and needs to think about things. She agrees that if things were to work with her and I we would need counseling, never see OM, etc.. but says she has to want to first. She says she does not want to and says that maybe someday if she missed me she would but is 99% sure that it won't happen. She told us that just as sure as she was about me years back, she is about him. (makes no sense to me?) She basically did not want to admit to her parents that it is all about OM. She claims it is about being independent, freedom, etc. She says by living with them she won't seem OM (even though she works with him) and will need to spend some time on working on herself and becoming a better person so then when she moves out in 2 weeks she will be "all better" and be ready for her relationship with OM (she admits her rushing into things with OM was not a good idea for them in the long term.) She said she is pretty sure we will divorce because we are in a "sham" of a marriage. Her parents and I are just in shock that she could seem so happy and then all of a sudden two months ago want out. She says things in life "just happen." I disagreed and said people choose for things to happen. She also said that OM has been waiting for a year for her (holding back his feelings) that he told her he'd wait for her to figure out her marriage. She said while she and I had love, he will always be her great romance in life (btw, my WS is a huge soap opera fan.) <p>My wife also told me that I'm now obsessed with her not in love with her. I denied it but just told her that all I can do is hope that she will realize things. She told me that I now know how she felt. She said she used to hope that I would realize what I had with her all these years and not take her for granted and neglect her. She says she will have a child in the next year or two. I feel guilty because she always wanted to have kids with me but I pushed it off wanting financial security and to be older/mature. Now I would love to have children but she says it is too late.<p>Later I spoke with her father and cousin who said that everyone in the family told her to be honest with them and me because what she was doing is wrong. She told them that she has this "feeling" that she cannot deny and has to see what it is. They told me that they know I mean well and hope that things work out between us but advised me not to be so pushy - not to push her away or into OM's arms. Later that night, while I was about to fall asleep all alone, my wife called me at midnight to tell me something about dog food. ? <p>I am considering Plan B. I could continue Plan A but I won't see her. I could see her and visit everyday at her parents if I like. I don't want to seem/be pushy though. My wife will be coming home occasionally to get her things and I'm sure she will want to talk to me again in the future (not just about finances but because we were best friends for most of our lives.) I believe my wife will miss me and want some of her needs met by me in the future. There are times when she tells me she knows what she is doing is wrong and doesn't want to hurt me and doesn't deserve me. Othertimes she says the opposite. I'm not sure what to do. Try to continue with Plan A even though I will rarely see her (I could do it without lovebusting I believe) or go to Plan B and not speak to her at all (even though it is barely 2 months if that - a long way off from 6 months). Plus, there is no going back to Plan A, and Plan B could mean divorce (which I don't want though I know it is only a piece of paper, it is still significant.) I know that I can be happy on my own someday when I heal. I know that we can work things out and be happy. I hope that we do. Ultimately I want to do what is best for my marriage despite people thinking my self-esteem will suffer. <p>Plan A or Plan B that is the question. Perhaps I should call Jennifer Harley.
Any comments?
Despite the title, I know now that my wife is having an affair with her coworker (emotional and physical). She has pretty much admitted their being affectionate but not intercourse. I know it is only a matter of time and am very distraught thinking about her with him. I miss her so much especially her company/conversation/holding her. I cry when I think about the good times when she called me her nicknames for me and wanted to hold me. <p>I wish I could go back in time with what I know now. I wish I could go into the future and live happily ever after. I know I can't and I should and will and am dealing with this. It just sucks and hurts! Damn I miss her. I am going to try to keep myself busy though because honestly I keep thinking about her all the time (too much?)<p>My wife says for me to do what I need to do and follow my heart because that is what she is doing. I think in a way I am but I'm also following my brain. I know in a way that the fact that I would still want her despite the affair shows that I am following my heart and not my brain perhaps and over time my heart will change if she does not come back and leave him. But my brain also tells me why this happened, why it is continuing, and how it may possibly resolve. Part of me loves her so much that I know she is making a mistake in her life and I feel bad for her future pain. She says all her life people (me, her parents) treated her like a baby and she needs to make her own mistakes, be independent and experience pain if she must, becasue she never got the opportunity to before.<p>Sorry to ramble, I just need to get these thoughts out somewhere. I keep remembering every little thing she said/says. I keep analyzing it. Ultimately I should stop and realize that she is in the fog and in a way I really shouldn't listen to what she says. I can't stop her, force her, and get her to leave OM and work on things with me, nor would I want to. I want her to realize and choose to be with me. The affair must die a natural death. Perhaps I'm afraid that she is right and not in a fog and she will live happily ever after with the OM, her supposed "soul mate." Only time will tell. I know one day I will heal and eventually not want to be with her (my love will end) if this continues. It is probable that her affair will end too. I just hope the timing is right and we come together again.<p>-heartbroken, barely hopeful, and confused
aanast2,<p>Don't give up. Things will change. I'm a year into a "separation" and I can say by experience that things will get better.<p>You may find that your W soon begins to resent OM. My W said exactly the same thing as your W - that "OM is not risking anything". My W resented that - and yours probably does too. Also we have a similar situation finacially. My W's OM is a "student" and has nothing except what he borrows from his brother - has never had a job and doesn't even have the legal right to work in this country. Right now, he cannot support her. We are different in that my W doesn't work and is taking care of our young child - so she needs somebody to support her - and OM cannot.<p>My W's parents are like your wife's - they are on my side. I don't know if that is best. I think there still is some aspect of rebellion against the parents involved. Although both your W and mine are afraid to dissapoint their parents, still there is this rebellion factor - like a teen-age thing.<p>What was your in-laws's involvment in the beginning of your marriage. My W claims that her mother "made her" marry me. So every time her parents push on her to be a good wife, she resents it - and resents me. I don't know about your situation.<p>
In my opinion, you should drag your feet and play for time. Right now, time is on your side (if you want to save the marriage). Don't do anything drastic about the house. Don't assume that there is such a thing as "her half" of the house. If she leaves it, it is yours. OK, that's probably not the way a court would see it, but if she wants "her half", let her go to court to get it.<p>OH YES, most important thing... but I'm not sure how to word it (read Dobson's "Love Must be Tough" for more on this)... try not to "chase" her. She is risking a lot. She is not sure of herself or her situation. Don't promise to always be there for her. Just let her know that you love her, care about her and want to stay married to her. Let her know that she is free to do as she pleases - that you cannot make her do what is right. If she is moving away from you, then chasing her will only make her run faster. When you talk to her on the phone or visit with her, make sure that you are the one who ends the conversation or visit. That way, she is always left wanting more of you than she is getting. I'm not saying to neglect her. Not at all. Meet every need that you have an opportunity to meet. Just don't chase after her.<p>Notice: My life is messed up too and I have no right to give advise.<p>I'm sorry I don't have time to write more.<p>-AD
Dear Aanast2,
Have you read the the Harley's Books "Surviving An Affair" and "His Needs, Her Needs"? If not, I highly recommend them.
You know, I believe you mean it when you say you miss your wife. I can also tell that you have been doing a lot of reflection on your marriage and that's good too. I can also tell that you understand about meeting emotional needs, and are committed to try working on that, in spite of your wife's reluctance to let you try. Good for you!
Walking in on your wife and seeing her crying shows that she is not certain either. That is a good thing. Keep working on your Plan A. The beauty of Plan A is that you are improving yourself while showing your wife you have the ability to meet her needs. You may have made many positive changes to yourself while working on Plan A. However, your wife probably doesn't trust the "new you" now. She probably is expecting your old behavior to come out, and doesn't yet recognize this as a permanent change. You need to continue to give her time to see this.
I know when I finally "woke up" and understood about emotional needs, and love busters, I was 200% committed to making things work out, including changing myself. However, I couldn't understand why it took my husband nearly 3 months to trust this! My IC pointed out he needed time, after all we had 10 years of negative history together.
So give your wife time to accept this "new" you.
You sound like you are doing an excellent Plan A and trying to meet the needs she will let you meet. Remember, she is simply addicted to this OP because he is meeting her top ENs. Once the reality of life closes in, such as trying to set up house together, pay bills, make decisions - the fantasy world will begin to fall apart. It might have to come to that before she will come out of her "fog".
One other benefit of Plan A is that if she continues to make withdrawals from your love bank, which she is doing now, you will eventually fall "out of love" with her and things won't feel so painful for you.
Hang in there. It sounds like you are on the right course.
Thanks Willing to Try and Abandoned Dad,<p>
AD - we are similar. In some ways my WS does feel that she married me to "please" her parents because of the pain she caused them with her boyfriend before she and I dated. Her old boyfriend was a true wacko.<p>WTT - you make me smile and give me hope. Thanks.<p>brief update- my WS called me twice yesterday (nothing important just about the dog) but I purposefully didn't answer and let the machine get it. I felt very good yesterday (not being on the emotional rollercoaster) and cooked a nice dinner for myself and ate it all (I'm still down 20 lbs since the discovery date.) I felt a bit guilty that by intentionally not talking to her I was not meeting her EN, but I needed a break myself. <p>Both of you made me feel that I should continue Plan A. I was having doubts that because she is now at her parents I should go to Plan B (which I don't want to do really). I'm not sure really. I want to do what is best for the marriage obviously and belive I can still Plan A without LBing. Of course with either Plan I'm improving myself, but I was concerned about not being able to meet her needs in Plan A if she is living with her parents. While they only live 15 mins away (and we usually went there every other day in the good old days) I don't want to seem pushy.<p>Can I still do an effective Plan A? (i.e. meet her needs, show her the new me?) I can try I guess (but man does she sound sooo convincing when she tells me about OM, how "we" are over, etc...)<p>Thanks,<p>Heartbroken with a bit more hope
Just when I thought I was going to keep on with Plan A (even though we are separated) I read this link:<p><p>which seems to say go for Plan B sooner than one would think.<p>hmmm... I guess my concern is that my wife points out all the problems of our marriage that I caused. Specifically:<p>neglecting her,
being selfish (into my own interests),
being negative (especially with her ideas -
playing devil's advocate with any future plans)
not putting her first,
not giving her attention - even when asked!,
taking her, our lives, our family for granted,
not taking interest in planning fun (vacations,
being romantic, having kids, trying new things)<p>I look back and see that I did all those things. I have deep regret about it. Those behaviors haunt me. I can't believe I did those things.
I didn't have my priorities straight. I just figured my wife would always be there and I didn't really have to try. I so much want to put her first, have kids, go on vacations, all those things she used to talk about.<p>I want to change and believe am changing. <p>My wife says it has been over for a long time; she's done trying. In a way I feel like I was sorta having an "affair" of sorts with my selfishness, and she eventually fell out of love with me. I was just "asleep" to my bad behaviors. Even when she said once in awhile that things seem wrong or I seem like someone she doesn't know anymore (within the last year before all this), I didn't take her seriously.<p>She believes that things are too late for us.<p>And my main concern now is that by going to "Plan B" I will seem like my old self to her (selfish because I wouldn't be speaking to her, etc..)<p>what to do...
Hi aanast2:
Although I'm a bit further down the road than you, I so can relate to the regrets you are feeling right now. But I just want to say, a lot of the blame you're placing on yourself for the breakdown of your marriage is somewhat misplaced. For the first 3-4 months after my H left (and moved in w/ OW), I tortured myself with everything I had done wrong for the past 11 years. Well, ya know what? Now at 7 months down the road, clarity has set in and it's painfully obvious that he wasn't perfect either. Do you know any perfect people in perfect marriages?<p>Anyway, I think your W and my H are reading from the same cheater's manual. He said nearly identical things..."He felt like he TRIED at our marriage for over a year, and was tired of trying..." (unfortunately he never told me how he was feeling! When he left it came as a complete and utter shock). "Loves me, but not in love with me..." "OW has NOTHING to do with him leaving - just really wants his independence and freedom...". H says I'll never change, I'm too controlling, you know, the typical cheating spouse verbiage. They'll say anything to deflect the blame off of what they are doing - which is basically bailing on a lifetime commitment. He also said all his life other people made decisions for him - treated him like a little kid, and he wanted to make his own decisions and choices, even if they ended up being bad ones that he would regret later. How's that for logic?<p>And like you, I had (and still have) the support of my in-laws. They are mortified by what their son has done, and are embarrased and ashamed. Which is exactly why my H avoids them like the plague. He was so close to his parents (who have been married for over 30 years) and now has barely any contact with them (or with any of his former close friends). They too, have advised me to just let him go, because nothing I say or they say is having any impact on him except to push him further away. I finally did that around month 4.<p>As ridiculous as this sounds, don't take any of your wife's anger personally. I couldn't believe the ogre I was dealing with when my H left. Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde...this was the sweetest guy on earth pre-A, and when he left, he became a nightmare. He cursed, yelled, blamed, got angry...I think this is their way of relieving guilt - take it out on the person closest to you. They are pushing you to get angry back, so that they can justify leaving you ("See...she really is a b****, so I was right in leaving her!").<p>I know telling you it will get easier does not help. People told me that at the beginning, and it's just too hard to grasp that through the pain. I am now at 7 months...and yes it's easier, but there are still crying jags (when I hear our wedding song), desperate days where I'm dying to call him (I don't! Haven't talked to him in 2 months now) and days where I pray his relationship crumbles with OW and he misses me/us again. I lost my H and my best friend in one fell swoop last Oct. 4th. I understand that void you're feeling.<p>The only small glimmers of hope I've gotten in all of this (since we have virtually no contact) is that:
1. He still hasn't filed for divorce (although he claimed he was going to on several occasions)
2. He still has his mail sent to his parents - not to OW's house
3. He no longer works with OW - she changed jobs about a month ago - that could be good or bad?
4. Everyone who has seen him says he looks HORRIBLE. Sorry to say, that makes me happy. I would feel worse if he looked fabulous.<p>So I guess OW isn't taking such good care of him...and I'm sure that like my H, your Wife's euphoria will fade eventually and the shine will start to tarnish.<p>I say - go dark! She won't know what she's missing until you're no longer a part of her life, in my opinion. I can only hope my silence is somehow working on my H too...
Hey Limu,<p>Thanks for the reply. We do have similarities with our BS. I have to agree I find it amazing here seeing on this website that all the BS say the same b.s. "love you but not in love", "let me go", reason for leaving is to "be independent not the OP", blames WS for problems.<p>I agree with you about people not having perfect marriages. I accept my WS for not being perfect and I guess that is why I would take her back if/when the affair ends. It is too bad however, that she does not believe in sticking through a marriage even in bad times; despite the vow "for better for worse until death do us part"<p>I'm trying not to take what she says personally but it is hard. Whenver we talk (aka argue/disagree) about the state of our marriage, om, our future, etc.. it wears me down and pushes her away. I have told myself in the past that I would stop doing it and just do a Plan A. In reality though, we can't help but talk about the subject (when I don't bring it up she does.) This time I'm really going to avoid talking about it even if that means walking away, ignoring her, if the subject comes up because it just causes me pain and her to get frustrated with me (both of which are harmful to our marriage - what's left of it.)<p>quote-------------------------------------------
I know telling you it will get easier does not help. People told me that at the beginning, and it's just too hard to grasp that through the pain. I am now at 7 months...and yes it's easier,
quote------------------------------------------<p>easier in what way? less pain? are you slowly getting over your husband, slowly following out of love with him (even though you still hopes he "snaps out of it" and comes back)?
Honestly in many ways, I don't want it become "easier" if that means I fall out of love with her/give her up. If/when that happens, I won't care and probably will be happy (and healing.) However, right now I am in love with my wife and want her back and want to wait it out (let the affair die a natural death.) I don't want to get over her/fall out of love because then I know our marriage is over. I know that is a very strong probability and maybe even the best thing for me individually in my life, however I don't want that (at least right now.)<p>quote--------------------------------------------
I'm sure that like my H, your Wife's euphoria will fade eventually and the shine will start to tarnish.
quote-------------------------------------------<p>I hope so too. The sooner the better. I'm not sure how "sure" I am it will happen (though I do know that most relationships that start while someone is in another relationship or because the other relationship is going bad probably won't work because of the poor foundation they are built on - i.e. "rebound" relationships fail because there was no time to "heal" - which in away is what an affair is.) I don't know, I just miss my wife, want her back, and want to make things right. If/when she comes back I hope it is not too late for her or me.<p>quote-------------------------------------------
I say - go dark! She won't know what she's missing until you're no longer a part of her life, in my opinion. I can only hope my silence is somehow working on my H too...
quote-------------------------------------------<p>I don't know. I hear what you are saying and that has been on my mind a lot lately. <p>On the plus side, I feel a lot less on the emotional rollercoaster not talking to her. Also on the plus side, she may miss me "make the heart grow fonder.) It may also cause the ol' "want what you can't get."<p>However on the minus side, I don't want to "feel" better if it means I'm losing my wife. Even though I feel better after not arguing/seeing her for two days, I'm starting to miss her again. I miss talking to her and being her friend. It makes me happy to see her. She doesn't seem to have a problem with me being her friend and seeing her (at least right now) so maybe I should continue to do that (if we are both happy with that - although she says she only wants to be my friend and that is all we were ever meant to be.) <p>I am leaning towards not Plan B-ing right now (going "dark" and not talking/seeing her) because: <p>1) I'm concerned it will be "out of sight - out of mind" with her and she will not miss me (though I realize she will be getting her cake and eating it too.) By my ignoring her, I will be justifying her actions in her eyes.<p>2) I really miss her and want to see her (despite it only being "crumbs" that I'm getting.)<p>and honestly,<p>3) I miss her. I don't know if I could take cutting her out of my life completely. Maybe, but it seems like torture, after which I probably won't ever want to see her again. This does not seem good for my marriage or me.<p>I don't know though.<p>I did (finally) call her this morning to let her know a friend called for her. It was pleasant. I tried to end the call right away (keep her wanting more) but she wanted to tell me about how she has been going to her parents house right away (I guess so I'm not suspicious of her) and how she is having a musical performance at her work (which I wished her luck in.) It seemed that she desired to talk to me and see how I'm doing, hear my voice, etc. Perhaps she missed me?<p>I'm confused.<p>Thanks for your input. I'll keep you posted. Good luck with your Plan B (stay strong.) Keep me updated.<p>-Heartbroken and hoping
A, it sounds as if your WW is very much like my WH was. He began chatting online with an old HS friend. That developed into long online EA. She came to visit us, spent a few nights at our house, and the EA became PA. Funny, but the PA was forgiven a lot quicker than the EA was. I still hold onto that EA sometimes and we are over two years into recovery.<p>My H was so in love this the OP. I heard many of the same things you have heard. "Our marriage was over before the A." "I'm tired of trying." "I care for you but I'm not in love with you like I am with her." "I never wanted to hurt you." "She's like the other part of me." "I only married you because you wanted to get married. If I had know she had feelings for me, I would have waited (for her to divorce her H at the time.)" The list goes on and on. It is a standard thing.<p>I was lucky. My H felt so guilty that he was willing to give up contact with the OW for a "trial period" which basically meant, "I won't contact her until you give up on this marriage too." Two years later, he still hasn't contacted her. He is affectionate and loving towards me. He talks about a future together with the two of us. It's a good recovery. Without him giving up contact with the OW, we never would have made it this far.<p>If your W is not willing to give up contact, I don't think that all the Plan Aing in the world will help. Now, the OM is a janitor, so she could leave you for him, have a fling, realize that he can't meet her needs, and come begging back to you.<p>Now, she wants to sell the house and get her 50%. Is there anyway that you can buy off her 50% and afford payments on the house on your own? I mean, then, once she runs through the money, is living in some cramped apartment with her OM, she'll look at you in your nice house doing well. Plus, it would really great on her nerves if you kept the house. Just a thought. My H and I stayed together because we didn't want to split up our stuff and sell the house.<p>You may also talk to an attorney. Depending on your state, you can contest a divorce on the grounds of adultry and sometimes get a higher settlement meaning your W wouldn't get a full 50%. Of course, it costs and arm and a leg to do anything outside the norm on a divorce.<p>Anyway, just some things to consider. It will be very hard for her to go from a decent income to a janitor's income that is shared with his family (did I read that right.)<p>Best of luck to you. Be strong, but don't give into elling. Harden your heart when you deal with her. Otherwise it will hurt too bad. If she comes back to you without the OM, you can start softening up. Don't ever beg. It makes you look weak and that won't appeal to her. She going to have to learn the hard way that she can't have her cake and eat it to. Remember, once you go into Plan B, don't take her back until she is completely over the OM.<p>On the bright side, Dr. Harley writes that it is easier for a woman to get over an EA than it is for a man once her needs are being met and she has no contact with the OP. So, that's a plus for you. Good luck.
Hi Aanast2:
If you're not ready to Plan B and go dark, don't do it. Until you're ready and committed, it would be impossible anyway. I knew from the day my H walked out that the best thing would be to just let him go and give him space...but did I follow that? No...I would call him every 3-4 days (which that in itself was torture) and cry and beg and plead. It was all futile. Drove him further into the arms of OW. <p>When I say "it gets easier", I guess it's sort of like experiencing the death of someone. At the beginning, your world is upside down, the pain is very raw, it's on your mind 24 hours a day, you can't eat, sleep. Well, as time goes on, the pain dulls (around 4-5 months). You learn to fill your life and the voids with other activities, which momentarily distract you from thinking about your W and your marriage. At 7 months, I still think about it pretty much all the time, but I'm not paralyzed by it. I go out of my way to fill my days with work, friends, sports, etc. My situation still causes me pain, but it's not as sharp or intense as it was in the beginning. I think just naturally, we begin to disengage and the memories of the person you were with aren't as sharp or vivid.<p>Like you, my biggest fear is that one day, I just won't care anymore, and I won't love him anymore. Isn't that weird? Part of me can't wait for that day to come, and part of me is terrified for when it arrives. According to my counselor and everyone else, that day WILL come. <p>I worry too, about out of sight, out of mind. But I just can't accept the fact that I'm so disposable after 11 years! I have to hang on to the hope that my H still remembers me, us, our life, and the good times.<p>Today has been hard. I had a moment of weakness and called him. Mind you, it's been over 2 months since I've had any contact with him. A while back he got a new cell phone, but didn't give me the number (and I didn't ask for it). I got it from a mutual friend. So when I called him today on it, he was downright rattled - sounded quite angry actually. Demanded to know how I got that number. I sort of just brushed it off and told him I couldn't remember who gave it to me...and proceeded to ask him some questions about our boat that I needed to know. I kept the convo very upbeat and casual. But I could tell he was upset that I've got this new number - once again, I guess I've infiltrated his private world designed to keep me out. Aaugh!<p>Can I just ask...if he feels this strongly about icing me out of his life, why doesn't he just file for divorce already?!<p>Sorry for venting - as you can see we're all living in our own versions of hell.<p>I think it's actually a good sign that your wife still talks to you about her life (ie: where she's living, her music, etc.). My H has never once asked me how I've been or what I'm doing. And from day one, he WILL NOT discuss OW with me or any aspect of his life. It's like I and our marriage never existed.<p>I know this is an irrational statement, but you can probably relate: sometimes I wish we did have kids so that he would be forced to see and talk to me. Of course, everyone tells me I should be so thankful that we don't have kids...mixed feelings on that!<p>Talk to you soon.
A,<p>Stay in Plan A. Right now you two are separated so you are being protected from the more serious withdrawals in your bank. That is the purpose of Plan B to slow down the withdrawals so that when the time comes, if it comes, you still love her enough to want to rebuild.<p>My bet is you will see her contact you more as you don't pursue her. My bet is that she is very confused, wants the fantasy, but is not sure it is real. AS for all you did wrong, you did them, but they wouldn't have been brought up if she wasn't in an affair. However, there is little doubt she was not happy or she would not have been so swayed by the OM.<p>So work on you, don't LB, be pleasant when you talk with her, but also don't push or "educate" her. Also don't expect your Plan A to have any noticeable effect on her. It is very likely it won't. You are sowing seeds for recovery when the A dies. You cannot accelerate the ending of their affair.<p>Interestingly, if the A does die and she comes back it will be her choice, not yours, not her parents, simply hers.<p>Hang in there.<p>God Bless,<p>JL
aanast2,<p>My H and I have been in Plan B for 1.5 months now. For the most part there has been email contact - mostly about our son...and yes, be thankful there are no children for they are truly the innocent victims.<p>But, as far as Plan A, I tried for 7 months. And what I discovered, and I believe it is probably true for many BSes that are in Plan A, is that I was Love Busting and not even knowing it. Remember, an LB is defined by your spouse. For example, if they think something you said was a disrespectful judgement, it is...and therefore a love buster. You may think you are just stating something factual, but I have noticed that in this state of "fog", the WS will take just about anything you say and it'll be viewed as a LB. So, I may have been partially successful in changing myself to meet his EN, but as soon as I Love Busted, all my hard work went out the window because he only remembered the negative stuff. When I tried to really work on my LBs via the Harley's tapes on Love Busters, what I found was that I was guilty!! And I also discovered that the one thing that was guaranteed to trigger my behavior was his continued contact with the OW. Since he was not willing to change this, we decided to seperate. That decision was extremely difficult and painful. Do I have regrets that I didn't stick it out longer - sometimes, but most of the time, I realize that I gave Plan A my best shot for my mind set, and it was the right time for Plan B. <p>Just by reading your posts, I would say that you probably meet more of your W's EN than you or she gives you credit for. If you continue to Plan A, then don't expect gratitude or even acknowledgement for your efforts. Always look on it as ways to improve yourself. Hang in there!!
I should have been more clear. Sorry about that. My advice was only if the Plan A fails and she files for divorce (because you seem to think that is what is happening. In the meantime, you should continue to be nice and respectful to her and avoid LBs. my advice was to try and set things up for her to return to you.<p>P.S., the only problem with contesting a divorce it that it usually makes it very messy. If you were to rebuild after something like that it would take a long time. It would only be a thought for her if money was a major need and she would be losing what she is accustomed to. I would really do it, I would just investigate it and throw it out as an option. Then, when you don't do it (because you don't want to hurt her), you can look good.
aanast2,<p>Reading your topic brought chills down my spine. Your story is just like mine. <p>About a year ago, my W went out with her girlfriend from work for dinner and drinks. She said she would be home at 9 pm to put boys to bed. W NEVER stays out late, let alone go out. She came home at 3 am with no phone calls. After that night she was a changed person. Very cold, never wanted to kiss, very distant. I thought something was odd, but left it alone. A month later I caught her talking to someone on the phone. W said it was her girlfriend. I hit the redial button on the phone the next morning and BAM - a male coworker from her job picked up. I confronter her about the call, and after trying to get out of it, she finally told me that she had been talking to him as a "friend". I asked if she had feeling for him, and W said " I don't know". Well, after some investigating, I found out that W called him 117 times over a month and a half period. What was news to me was that she called him after she came home the night she stayed out till 3am. I asked her if OM was with them that night and again more lies, but she finally said that he was with them that night. After S%*# hit the fan, my W said she does not love me anymore, does not want to try, feels to much tension in the house, I could do nothing right, ect. She started coming home later and later from work. Funny how she came home on time for the past 3 years, but now she's late 3-4 nights a week. <p>Just a few months prior to her 3 am night a year ago, we were talking about having another baby. We were also this close to buying a house, but now she hates to be with me. Anyways, I have filed for D. I could not take anymore of the pain. We still live together, but it is hard. 9 years of marriage, all done. <p>I can say this. I tried everything I could for a year. I did plan A, tried meeting her EN's, tharapy, giving her space and time but no change just a slap in the face.<p>All I can say is get ready for the biggest rollercoster ride of your life.<p>Dino
Wow, thanks to all of you for replying. It seems that I should stick to Plan A even though we are separated (since we probably will communicate.)<p>However, I have something new to consider. It doesn't exactly "jive" with Dr. Harley's concepts of Plan A and B, but it makes some sense to me.<p>I spoke with my father finally about my situation (he doesn't live in the country.) He and my mom were divorced many, many years ago and he has had experience with counseling etc. He was a WS and remarried the OW. He is very intelligent, a doctor, his wife is a psychologist. <p>He suggested a two part option:<p>Part 1 - Get my WS to agree to "one last try" by going to a weekend group called Marriage Encounters (seems similar to RETROUVAILLE.) <p>At the weekend, we would write and discuss our issues. We would be alone and be writing, discussing, etc. and it would be intensive for hours each day. It would cause us to be 100% honest about the problems in our relationship and give us the best chance at seeing if it is truly 100% over.<p>The purpose of which is for
a) to generate a spark between us (which my father believes can happen even if there is a OM)<p>b) for me/us to determine if my WS has a deficit within her that she cannot commit to any relationship in the face of bad times. (which is what I need to find out to protect myself for the future in case this becomes a pattern for her.)<p>Part 2 - If we are not able to generate a and/or I discover b is true, I will actually "give up" completely.<p>The hard part (besides dealing with the pain of part 2) is getting my WS to agree to go to Part 1. It may be too late. Although she says she is "pretty sure" we are over. I will have to focus all my energy into getting her to agree including using the following:<p> - convince her to do it (for all we once
had, not to have regrets for throwing it
all away, to be 100% sure, etc..)<p> - convince her that if either one of us is
to start another relationship and be
healthy and successful we must "clean
out" this relationship first and be 100%
honest with each other<p> - talk to a third party that she trusts &
who is "objective" (i.e. wants what is
best for her individually whether that
means marriage or not) to encourage her
to part 1 because it will resolve things <p> - convince myself that if I have to do part
2 and "give up" that I will & stick to it
My father also suggested that I need to draw the line for myself as to where I have to end it and "give up."<p>My concerns about the two part plan he proposed are that<p>1) I'm not sure a spark can be generated if she is in the "fog" infatuation stage of her new relationship. This is my main concern. It seems that according to MB that nothing we speak about or "educate" her about or anything I do can create love between us. It seems that the affair has to end on its own. My father says that the Marriage Encounters is so intensive and based on some of the confusion that my WS has that he believes it will probably work.<p>2) If a spark is generated and I realize she can commit to "us" even in bad times, what next? (I guess I cross that bridge when I get to it.)<p>3) If I have to "give up" what happens logistically (divorce etc)? and what happens if she wants to work things out later? (I guess I cross that bridge when I come to it too.)<p>4) Is part 1 a big mistake? If I work so hard to get her to go to the weekend I could be pushing her away towards the OM, LBing, and ruining Plan A. My father says that at the weekend there is no pushing just honesty.<p>Any comments?
You know, you can't push her into the weekend. You could approach her like this though:<p>I know you feel that our realationship is pretty much over. I really hope that is not the case. I would really enjoy going to this Marriage Encounters weekend with you and I hope you will consider it. After the weekend is over, if we don't see a light at the end of the tunnel, I will peacefully agree to whatever you want. I think this would be a good way to be very, very sure this is what we each want before severing our relationship.<p>This wording runs something along the lines of "We wouldn't want to separate and divorce without being 100% sure that our relationship is truly over."<p>I don't know if a spark can be created when they are in the fog. But, you can also look at the fact that something you did once caused her to fall in love with you. A solid weekend together without the OM and you being on your best behaviour might throw some more confusion her way.<p>I don't have any answers for you, just thoughts.
Lapine-<p>I like the way you worded that. However, I'm not going to try just yet. She has been at her mom's for a little over a week now. I feel in some ways I was a bit too pushy during Plan A while she was with me (because we would argue about what to do next.) <p>Since she has been at her mom's she has been angry with me a few times (because her parents are pissed at her and she blames me for telling/manipulating them.) She has given me the finger for shaking my head at her when she was talking about OM and she called me pathetic for calling her. On Sunday though we spoke very casually and calmly at her parents. I must be patient but it is so hard because I miss her. I want to talk to her daily but I resist because I don't want to push her away.<p>quote----------------------------------------
>I don't know if a spark can be created when they >are in the fog. But, you can also look at the >fact that something you did once caused her to >fall in love with you. A solid weekend together >without the OM and you being on your best >behaviour might throw some more confusion her >way.
quote--------------------------------------------<p>probably would but not enough for her to not want to try things with OM and if we consider it our "last try" then she may feel better about leaving me and go through with it. I'm thinking I have to wait for the weekend until she wants to try.<p>quote------------------------------------------
>I don't have any answers for you, just thoughts.
quote--------------------------------------------<p>Thank you for your thoughts. I have no answers either.<p>I'm wondering now if I am sorta in Plan B because we are separated. I hope she comes around and wakes up. It seems like just waiting around for the "affair to die a natural death" is terrible because it may not. I am/will continue to work on myself (i.e. exercise, examine what I can do better in a relationship, other goals.) I just feel sometimes that I have to let her know that I still want/love her (which I guess she knows) that I can change and be/am better than the OM. I guess since she is in the fog it won't work so I have to just wait. I wish I knew that in a few months she would be back, then the waiting would be easier. But the fact that she may be gone forever (which she has told me) makes the waiting seem like it is a waste, that instead I should be actively trying to woo her and win her back. Or give up (which I can't do right now.) <p>I'm forced to wait because things get worse if I'm too pushy with her. <p>So I wait and hope.<p>only time will tell.<p>-Heartbroken and hoping
Hi <p>I am new to this MB discussion forum, however, I am eaxactly in the same situation as you are, My W says exactly the same things as your W. But remember this is all the blame game after the fact of INFIDELITY. I am in Plan B for last 6 weeks, and believe me it gets better every day, Plan A takes all your energy and drains out from the hole in the POT. because of the Fog, they don't seem to really grasp it. I suggest go to plan B and keep distance thats all U can do at this time.<p>Good Luck and keep patience!
Lion-<p>thanks for the advice. I don't know though. I'm just very reluctant to try Plan B. My reasons are:<p>1) Her family is my family, I've known them all my life and I/we go 2-3 times a week to their house, her siblings/cousins are my close friends. So I and they don't want to give up our relationship just because of my marital problems. Plus, seeing them will mean I have contact with her and then it won't be a true Plan B.<p>2) Plan B is risky because it involves separation which means she may never come back (which she says) and we may never reconcile. I don't want to take that risk. Do I have a choice? If I keep in Plan A without LBing is that better than going to Plan B?<p>3) Most of our problem was initiated due to my lack of giving her affection/attention. If I go to Plan B then won't that just show in her eyes that I never cared for her because I'm stopping all communication with her?<p>hmm...
It broke my heart when I read your first post. I am in a similar situation. My WH said late last fall that he needed to go sort his head out and completely denied my suspicions that he was having an affair with a co-worker. Finally, I discovered that it was a full blown EA/PA and that he had been telling her that he was going to be with her, his soulmate, as soon as he could sort out how to end his marriage in a thoughtful way (what a ridiculous statement). <p>I didn't know about MB or this website or anything else the day I discovered the A. But, the re-writing of history, the deception, and the cruel and thoughtless way he had been treating me for months caused me to tell him to move out on the spot. <p>Per Jennifer Harley, I have been doing planA while separated for the last four months. There are some signs that my WH is coming out of the fog. I felt and Jennifer agreed that it was important for me to do a plan A because for the six to nine months leading up to the separation and discovery of the A, I had been engaged in lots of angry outbursts and disrespectful judgements because I felt like I was losing my mind. Rather than having my WH focus on that behaviour, I needed for him to see the better side of me (plan A) and I needed to do it for myself. I was not ready to give up and I needed to be able to say I really tried to give it my all. <p>I may be going to plan B soon, but the situation has definitely improved. I am calmer. I feel as if I have really tried. I think my WH is confused and in a panic. He is finally showing remorse over what he has done.<p>I think if you can plan A for a while it is worth it for YOU. Go to plan B when you don't feel like you can withstand the pain any longer.
unsureheart, thanks for the reply. I think you are right. I am going to continue Plan A until I can't take it anymore. However, it seems that my WS won't notice much unless I tell her (which seems to me that it invalidates it, like I'm trying to show off or something.)<p>Anyway, I was seriously hurt today. Here's an update:<p>I have continued to be working on myself, distracting myself with friends, work, and "trying" to have fun (even though my thoughts keep going round and round about her and us and the future and the past etc...) It is the worst feeling when I first wake up in the morning all alone and have been dreaming about her. I feel so empty physically inside. It is almost like I want to wake up in the morning and realize this has all been one bad dream. Anyway back to today:<p>I worked, went bike riding after work (i.e. working on myself) and came home. Honestly as much as I miss her terribly and can't wait sometimes for her to be back, when I don't see her I feel less hurt (but still lonely). Anyway, the phone rang and it was her. I decided to pick it up (meet her need for conversation.) We chatted briefly about things going on this week and weekend and I tried to be pleasant and I could tell she was too. I wished her luck at a performance she will be having. I then tried to end the conversation (so I don't seem "pathetic" like she told me I was on Saturday *and* to keep her wanting more.) <p>She wanted to keep talking and asked how I was doing. She said she cares about me and wants to see how I was holding up. She says she's very sorry for hurting me. She asked if I was still working out everyday.<p>I told her I was and mentioned my bike ride. <p>She asked if I had been on any dates yet. (Can you believe that!?! It has only been a week and two days since we've separated.) I told her no, of course not, I'm not going to break our marriage vows. She kinda laughed and told me that she used to think that way too (hinting that I will soon or something.)<p>I basically told her that I am hoping that she will want to work things out with me and stop seeing the OM. I told her I miss her and love her. I also said I'm not going to get angry with her because that will just drive her away further. She said by being nice I'm driving her away further too. So, I told her I was very angry with what she is doing, I don't support it, and in fact I hate what she is doing. However, I added that I love her and understand that things got bad for her in our marriage and want to start a new and make it better.<p>She said that she knows I'm a "good man" and said I'm "one of the few perhaps 1% who would have let her stay at the house after what she has told me." (that sounded good I guess)
But then she said "then again, that is not very healthy either." She again pointed out that our marriage ending/problems has nothing to do with the OM and "HE IS NOT THE CAUSE."<p>She mentioned that in a month or two she will be moving out of her parents. I said "to come back here?" (knowing quite well that she wasn't) and she said "no, to move out on my own." She also said she will never come back to me to work on things.<p>I asked her why.<p>She said because there are certain things that she needs to do in her life. Things such as "going to dinner with people, going to the movies, going on dates, dating different guys, etc.." that I won't let her do and neither will the OM. (hmmm?) She said that "everyone" thinks what she is doing is wrong but she doesn't care anymore what anyone thinks. She is going to do what she wants to do.<p>She said she was sorry for not being more honest with me earlier in our relationship. She was sorry for not leaving permanently the first time she left (early March). She admits that she has broken her vows and "cheated" on me. She (again) wanted to know what she would have to say/do that would drive me away (end it for me, stop my hope.) I told her I don't know. She said "you're just going to take me back?" I told her that she would have to end things with OM for us to be successful at working on things together. I told her I hoped that one day she would realize things and want to work on things (give our marriage a try again with me now aware and trying too.)<p>After we were done talking, I felt very hurt. I was back on the emotional rollercoaster again. I felt that her words scooped a chunk out of my body/soul. It was strange because the emotional hurt felt physical too. Anyway, I have thought about what she has said and wonder what her motiviation is for saying that our marriage problems are NOT because of the OM and that she wants to date others (and he won't let her either?). <p>Maybe this is the truth? I don't know but kinda doubt it because of what I know about the fog. I also think that she wants this magically, happily ever after ending with OM which includes her family accepting him (or at least she mentioned it at one time a while back.) She knows I communicate with her parents regularly and they are on my side. Perhaps she thinks that if *I* believe it is not because of OM, that I will get her parents to believe it too (which in her mind would mean that down the line she could bring OM to the family without problems.) I don't know, I'm just hypothesizing. <p>Perhaps she is just saying it to free herself from the guilt. Perhaps she really menas it or part of her does. I don't know.<p>I wonder if our chances for reconcillation/ reconnection/working things out would be better or worse if things didn't work out with OM and she decided to "date around" rather than come back to me. I wonder if I can take it or even wait that long. Again, based on previous conversations with her (when she first told me about her feelings for him before things really started between them) she was soooo infatuated with him that I wonder if she is lying now (because it contradicts other things she has said.) <p>Or maybe she thinks it will not work out with OM and just wants out of the marriage? <p>Or since she feels she is out, she'll want to date around a bit just to "make sure" or get it out of her system before she comes back to me. Who knows. I'm confused. <p>Whether our problems/separation are
"caused" by the OM or not (or whether she thinks they are or not or wants me to think so) does it make a difference for working out our marriage????<p>I think it is about OM. But if she is being honest and it really is not, what should I be doing differently if anything (something else besides Plan A and then B)?<p>Any thoughts?<p>Thanks,<p>-Heartbroken, hurt, yet still hoping
Upon further reflection I thought of a few more positive things from her conversation with me today:<p>1) she called me (I didn't call her)
2) she asked me to call her
3) she suggested that she would come home this weekend to take care of the dog since I'm going to visit my mother out of town (this goes against her saying last week that she would never spend a night under the roof again - granted this is a minor point but it still shows how inconsistent she is with her actions and words.)<p>I interpret the above as she desires certain needs to still be met by me (regardless of her telling me its over, blah, blah, blah.) I'm hoping to continue plan A and get to meet more of her needs (like I was when she was living her the last month or two) so that when I switch to plan B and OM can't hack it, she'll come back. Unless she comes back before then to work on our marriage. <p>Wishful thinking.
aanast -- I think you are doing pretty well for the timeframe of her moving out/your discovery of the A. <p>Yes, somedays (make that most days) you will wake up in the morning missing her and wishing this was all a bad dream. Sometimes when I'm doing something like driving my car back from the grocery store or the gym, I'll daydream that this was all just a bad dream.<p>The fog that she is in right now is driving the train. What she is saying to you about wanting to be on her own/the OM is not the cause, is EXACTLY the same thing that ALL of us have heard. It is frightening how similar all of the statements are to the BS.<p>It sounds as if she is confused. If she really wanted to walk away from you completely, she would not call you or ask how you are doing. Keep working on your planA. The reason that the WS have such as hard time with your being nice, is that she is probably feeling incredible guilt. My WH admitted about two weeks ago -- after more than 3 months of plan A -- that my being nice made him feel terrible guilt and it made it hard for him to be around me for long. He said he could not understand how I could be nice to him after what he had done/was doing. I told him I loved him and that somehow that gave me a patience and level of care for him that I never knew existed.<p>Hang in there. Post as much as you need to because sometimes writing out what you are feeling and thinking is the best medicine. <p>Many of us are in the same place. Sometimes I feel as if my body were walking around with my soul and mind looking at my body from the outside. Some days getting dressed is hard. Some days finding the strength to work on yourself is hard. <p>I know that separating while doing plan A is not the ideal situation, but I do think there is some advantage in not being around the BS that much while all of this is going on as it is so hard to keep from LBing and keep working on yourself when they are around acting like aliens have abducted their brains.<p>I hope today is better for you.
unsureheart, thanks for the reply<p>quote------------------------------------------
>I think you are doing pretty well for the >timeframe of her moving out/your discovery of >the A.
quote------------------------------------------<p>thanks for saying that though it just seems like things are getting worse. She told me when she had feelings for OM before she told him. After the initial freakout I tried doing Plan A. Her EA turned into a PA. During this time she still had a photo of my on her desk at work and wore her wedding rings. Now she doesn't.<p>quote------------------------------------------
>The fog that she is in right now is driving the >train. What she is saying to you about wanting >to be on her own/the OM is not the cause, is >EXACTLY the same thing that ALL of us have >heard. It is frightening how similar all of the >statements are to the BS.
quote------------------------------------------<p>I would have to agree with my WS in that the OM was not the cause of all our marital problems. Her feelings for OM and the A has made us see and acknowledge the problems of our marriage. So I agree that there were problems before OM so he is not the cause, however, those problems could be worked on and cannot now that there is an OM. So OM was not the cause per se of our problems but could cause the end of our marriage.<p>>It sounds as if she is confused. If she really >wanted to walk away from you completely, she >would not call you or ask how you are doing. >Keep working on your planA.
true, I find contradictory actions and words from her all the time. However, I'm starting to feel that my Plan A is making her look at me less like an attractive choice to go if things don't work out with OM. In many ways she thinks that my wanting to work things out with her shows that I am weak, less manly, pathetic, etc. Those characteristics will not make me attractive to her. Perhaps the way I'm doing Plan A is the problem. Since she has moved out, I plan on continuing Plan A if she calls me or if she sees me. I will try not to call her. When I talk to her I will be pleasant and smile but keep it short. I will try to not talk about the future and our relationship (for the time being) because she is in a fog and we don't agree so every time we talk about it we argue and both get frustrated and upset.<p>>I hope today is better for you.<p>Thanks. I guess it was. I called my WS at work this morning to wish her luck on a performance she was practicing for for a month or two. She mentioned that she has a performance in the evening. I said I'd like to go and see it but that she probably wouldn't want me too. She said she doesn't care either way and to do what I want to do. So I said ok I want to go so I'm going but to call me if you change your mind.
I went to her work for the performance. We spoke briefly before and afterwards. We were pleasant and only spoke about the performance, etc. (not about "us".) I hugged her but could tell she felt awkward about it.<p>I was concerned that maybe she thinks I'm being needy or pathetic in going. However, I went because 1) I honestly wanted to see the performance and 2) I wanted to show her my support. I also have to admit 3) to show all her coworkers my presence and support of her (I thought this was important because she told me awhile back that she told them all that she was going to be getting a divorce, they all felt sorry for her, and kinda assumed I was the bad guy. I figured if they saw me they would think that I still want to work on things with her *and* since her A is with OM who is a coworker, it might make that more known to her coworkers/friends (which according to MB an affair is likely to die 6 months after being revealed to family and friends.)<p>Maybe today came across as too pushy for her, I don't know, I hope not. I don't plan on talking to her too much from now on unless she calls me etc.. (at least to see how it goes.) I probably won't talk to her until the weekend when she comes home to watch the dog. I have now began to suspect that maybe she will bring OM here. grrr... <p>well, I'm just going to keep on writing here. It helps to ramble and get things off my chest whether anyone is reading or not. Thanks to those who are and are giving their 2 cents worth.
Just checking in to see how you are doing today. I am torn between being available when my WH wants to talk and not being available. I guess that is pretty common and it sounds as if you are in the same place.<p>I think attending her performance was a good thing; especially if one of her issues before the A was lack of attention (I can't remember if that was an issue). I think it's best to put everything in your plan A through the filter of "is this something that my WH/WW thought was missing or a need I was not meeting".
hi aanast2<p>Well I am new to this all, I have had my share of grief, but then again we all have. I have read your story and I hope you dont mind me sharing my thoughts. Please know I have no right to and I am not trying to criticize, judge or even put myself in your shoes. I am just telling you what I think and feel.
To begin, let me just say that I know the days can just seem to float by and only one thing clouds your mind. What can you do? How can you resolve this problem? Where and what is the solution? Questions that we may never be able to answer seem to consume our thoughts.
One side to it is yes you were in love and it was pure beauty. You were truly happy and the future seemed only bright. That in itself will never change. Those memories can and will linger despute the current situation. If that turns out to be all (and I hope it doesn't but if it does) what else can we do but be happy and thankful it happened. Now to change from being so pessimistic let me try to express something. I personally think you are doing as much as possible. You are making the effort, re-thinking yourself, trying to change and succeeding. If the marriage will be saved it will take that much from both sides. You are doing your part. Is it too late? It may be for her and in that case there is not much more to be done. You cannot force anything, you can only give of yourself. Just make sure not to give too much that one day you wake up and you find you have nothing left. If she believes she is following her heart, then you must respect that. Even if it means understanding and accepting that the marriage is over. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] And that is heart-breaking but all too often true. It may not be and most likely (especially in this case) is not any fault of yours. This you must understand. So after babling somewhat aimlessly (sorry) what advice do I have for you now... She is definetely worth the effort, but know when to give up. Only you can know but make sure you do. Other than that, she is blind if she doesn't see your love, and if she does and just can't return it- a marriage, yet not necessarily a friendship may be lost.
Well I hope I have not saddened you. Hope is strength and its the last thing to go. It seems now no one knows what the future will hold. I just hope she has felt all the feeling you have expressed on this website. Tell her to search your eyes--she will know how you feel. Tell her then to search her own. Then leave her alone until she is sure of what she wants and of how to go about it. The way things are not are just to painful for both of you and if she cares then she will understand what needs to change.
I hope I was of some help. Feel free to be honest in a response.
My hopes are with you,
one who cares
aanast -- Just bumping up to see how you are doing. Are you ok (well as ok as we all can be in these situations)?
Wonder how you are doing? <p>Next time she says something about you not acting like a man - tell her you are trying to act like Jesus Christ would act if he were in your place. And say that you think he was very much a man. <p>Wishing the best for you. It would be nice if we could take away each others pain and make everything better. We can't but we do care. <p>SS
Hi everyone,<p>Thanks for following up with me.<p>>one who cares
>Questions that we may never be able to answer >seem to consume our thoughts.<p>yes. Though the more I keep myself busy with friends and work the less I think about the same thoughts over and over. When I am alone (especially before I go to sleep or when I first wake up) is when I dwell on the issue.<p>>One side to it is yes you were in love and it >was pure beauty. You were truly happy and the >future seemed only bright. That in itself will >never change. Those memories can and will linger >despute the current situation. If that turns out >to be all (and I hope it doesn't but if it does) >what else can we do but be happy and thankful it >happened.<p>You're right. I know whatever happens I will be ok and get through this. However, I'm still hit with shock every now and again as to how she could throw away our relationship just like that. I guess I know the reason is because she has someone to go to which makes it easy for her. But still... <p>
>Tell her to search your eyes--she will know how >you feel. Tell her then to search her own. <p>I tried this. She says she knows I love her. She says she just can't give "us" another try because she doesn't love me anymore. So I wait.

>still seeking <p>thanks for checking up on me.<p>As for an update, there is nothing new really. She stayed at our house for the weekend (her offer) because I was visiting my mom and the dog would be alone. She was mad that I stayed an extra day at my mom's with "her" car. Anyway, when I returned, we were pleasant. She let me briefly massage her and we joked a bit. She tried to take off my wedding ring and told me not to wear it. Then finally she changed her mind and said I'd have better luck meeting women with it on. (?) She told me her dad spoke with her about "giving me another try" and she said she just can't. I again told her that I want to work on things, it is clear we have major problems in our marriage, and if we try it can work out for us. She asked how I "knew" this, I said I don't but there is nothing to lose in trying. She said yes there is. I asked what. She said "time." I asked her why she is in such a big hurry. She said she wants to get on with her life. She said she has become much stronger not seeing me in the last week. She also let me know that in a month or two she will be moving out of her parents house into her own apartment and will divorce me in August when she has enough money saved. She mentioned that she has decided that she doesn't want anything (furniture etc) from the house anymore but would expect me to give her the monetary value of half of those items. I told her I didn't want to talk about this stuff.<p>In the course of our conversation, she seemed very interested in who knew what was going on with us (specifically if my friends and parents knew and how much they knew.) I asked her if she was to come back and work on things would that matter. She said yes it would. Then she said no because she obviously doesn't care what people think now and if she really wanted to come back she wouldn't care what people thought.<p>Our conversation started to go back to the same old circle, back and forth. I should have ended it but I got caught up emotionally. I got choked up. I basically told her that all I can do is hope that she will change her mind and be the good person that I know she is and that I married. I told her that all I can do is wait for her to realize things or for things to end with OM. After I said that, she said I was pathetic again. I asked why and she said because I'm stupid to wait for her to be done with OM. She also told me that one day I will thank her for this. She told me that she doesn't even trust herself anymore. She added that she will not be making any commitments to OM or anyone for long time. But she also said that if in 5 years she is happily remarried with children, I will see that I am wrong. <p>I saw her briefly again over the memorial day weekend because I spent time with her family (who are practically my family) at her parent's house (where she is staying.) Anyway, at one point I noticed her all alone in her old bedroom sitting quietly in the dark. I asked her if everything was ok. She replied yeah. I asked her if she wanted to be alone. She said yes, so I let her be.<p>Later we spoke on an off while around her family (some of whom know our situation, some who don't) while playing games, bbqing, or watching tv, etc. For the most part it was trivial conversation. I could tell that overall she was trying her best to avoid me, and most of the time her facial expression was that of unhappiness.<p>I was pretty shaken up most of the day Tuesday (even though I didn't see her) because of how real all of this was again shown to me by her actions and attitude towards me seeing her over the weekend. I feel much better Wednesday and today because I'm trying not to dwell on it and keep busy. Honestly, I'm still at the point of trying to wait patiently and hoping that she will "snap out of it" sooner rather than later. I know were headed towards a divorce. I know it is a piece of paper but at the same time, it seems that it would be a bit ridiculous to be waiting and hoping after that. Part of me is trying to move on to a certain extent now (without success.) Even though I tell myself that I want a woman who loves me, that I can trust, who wouldn't be cruel to me, who would be honest with me, and who would stick with it especially when the times are tough, I still want my wife. Right now and for the last few months, she hasn't been that woman. I'm hoping she is still. We'll see. I guess in a way it is in the hands of fate. If we are meant to be, she will snap out of it and want to work on things and I will still want to when she does.<p>Thanks for your support and listening out there.<p>-Heartbroken and still hoping and waiting
here's another update from last night (Thursday)<p>My wife stopped by the house to "get some things."
I tried to not talk about our situation (because whenver we do it is exactly the same words out of both our mouths and is just frustrating) but of course we went back to it. She started off by telling me that she wants certain items from the house etc... I told her that I want everything. She said I'd have to give her money then.<p>We then went into the circular conversation. I said I want to try to work on things and see what happens but she must get rid of OM and want to try. She said she doesn't want to try, doesn't want to get rid of OM, etc.<p>I did find some inconsistencies in her comments.
At one point in the conversation, she said that she wants to date lots of different people and she is going to get her own apartment this summer to do so. Later in the evening,r I said that I obviously can't force her to want to work on things and wouldn't if I could, and so I understand that, for herself, she needs to be on her own to figure out things. She then immediately replied with her wanting the apartment so OM can come over. She said she is not sure if she will have a roommate or not (depending on her financial situation.)<p>She mentioned that she spends nights alone and lonely because her parents control her. She says she wishes people would respect her wishes becasue she is a 27 year old adult. She says right now it is horrible because she can't see him because she is at her parents house (her choice btw) and her mom calls to check up on her and fights with her everyday about OM and going back to me etc. She mentioned that OM has started working a second job evenings so she also can't see him. She mentioned that he too has lost a lot of weight as a result of the stress this is causing him (like I care!) She said that he has told her that he will wait for her as long as it takes. She said she knows he is such a nice guy etc...(just like she knows it about me) and if they don't work out, it will be because of her and not him. And she said his family doesn't and won't take their relationship seriously until she divorces me. She added that her mom mentions me all the time etc. and she says she tells her mom that she has spoken to lawyers already about a divorce (but then she told me not to tell her but that she really hasn't yet.) ???<p>I tried to not cry in front of her but eventually I couldn't help it. I told her how much I miss her, and how much it hurts when I remember how much she really, REALLY (and I mean REALLY) LOVED ME and showed me how much. She agreed that she did. I told her how I felt guilty for not doing my part to keep her loving me. I added that I don't blame myself for the affair, she choose that, she was dishonest with me. <p>She then told me that this whole things is not easy for her either. She said it is not easy to throw away her house, and all the things in it, and to give up her family and parents. I can tell that she wants her family to accept OM but they won't.<p>I tried to change the conversation eventually because it was going in circles. I emphasized that I wanted her to know that when/if she sees that she wants to work on things with me and/or doesn't want the OM or whatever, to know that I want to change and that for us to even try to see what will happen with us (if it'll even work) she must quit her job and give him up.<p>She thought I was weak for wanting her after she has admitted a PA to me and for me saying in a way that I'm waiting for her to finish with OM. She said for me to just give up now because she is sure he is the one and she repeated that even if she wanted to that she CAN'T give him up. What they have because it was such a strong emotional connection is/was IRRESISTABLE. <p>I asked her about her calling me "pathetic." She said I'm not and she knows that I love her. She admitted that in a way she feels guilty that she knows I'm hurting and she is trying to get me to "give her up" because it will be easier for her.<p>Other problems she mentioned that our marriage had were that she organized everything, planned everything, put all the energy and enthusiasm into everything, and she picked out everything (our house, cars, furniture, etc.) She was interested in our life together and I never seemed to care or show interest. (Is this a guy thing?) I do care and told her that I can work on it if we work things out. I told her that there are many things we can do to fix our marriage, including counseling and other things. She said she wouldn't want to do counseling becasue she is lazy. I said there are plenty other things too. She said like what and I replied that there is no point explaining it now since she is so "sure" about her new "true love" and that I will not try to "educate" her now but show her my research, etc (aka MB, etc) when the time comes.<p>She also said that I was never "tough" enough with her. I let her get anything she wants, trival things, etc. and in a way I am letting her do this now (with OM.) I emphasized that I do not want her seeing OM, that it is killing my love for her, it hurts me, I hate it, etc. but that I can't stop her and only hope that she stops.<p>After the initial round and round conversation (with emotions - which btw, at one point she seemed to almost cry while I was upset and we hugged - because she is pitying me), she asked me for some help with driving to Walgreens and getting a car wash, cleaning the car etc. I went along and tried to be pleasant and even joked with her (once about our situation which she laughed but said, how can you joke about this? I replied that if we are to get over it and work on things I can't be holding it over your head forever.) I think by spending the time with her I was meeting her needs.<p>Then back at the house she was sore from cleaning the car and I gave her a massage. She said no one can do it like I can (or something like that.) Things got a bit intimate (hugging, holding, and almost kissing) but she pulled away. She said she feels guilty as much as she likes it. She said she does not want me to have false hope. I told her I don't, believe me I don't (I honestly only did it to meet her needs.) She also said that she knows OM would feel bad if he knew what she was doing with me.<p>Before she left I told her that I can't be this way forever and that someday I would have to stop all contact with her (aka plan b) if I'm ever going to get over her (as she keeps telling me she wants me to.) We agreed in the meanwhile when we see each other (if she comes over for things, calls, or I'm visting her family on weekends) that we would be pleasant and not talk about our issue until something changes (since we both can't agree and keep saying the same things which is annoying her and making me distraught.) We'll see how that goes.<p>In the meanwhile then, I plan on plan A-ing for a little while longer. Her being out of the house in a way helps me because the days I don't see her, she doesn't hurt me and so my lovebank isn't be reduced. I actually feel better a day or two without seeing her. So far for the most part she has been contacting me (which I guess is good) at least once a week or so. I'm going to call the Harleys next week to figure out when it would be best for Plan B. For myself I can keep Plan A for awhile I feel. We are at the end of 3 months of her telling me she had feelings for OM (their PA started maybe a month or so after that but she and a friend of hers knew about her "feelings" months before which my wife has admitted and said in a way she was trying to "sabatoge" our marriage in Jan/Feb of this way to drive me away and make it easier for her to be with OM - yet she keeps saying OM has nothing to do with it. Ha!)<p>Anyway, as for Plan B, I'm holding off. If she moves into an apartment in August as she plans to do (which seems very likely) I'm sure it will be all new and exciting for her initially so I'm wondering if I should Plan B around then, before, or after. We'll see.<p>One last thing, my wife as she was leaving last night, admitted to me that the real reason she came over was to see me. She was feeling really bad about things. (hmm? guilt? miss me? needs not met by OM?) She kissed me on the cheeck goodbye and told me that she cares about me and loves me like a family member. I told her I want more than that.<p>In some ways there is nothing new between us, in other ways I see her fog and confusion. I have to admit that what gives me hope is that she really REALLY did love me (more than one could imagine) and that most affairs end (I read somewhere that the chances of affairs with coworkers/close friends surviving is like 3-5%.) It is not my only reason for hoping but it helps to think about things like. I also feel hope in knowing that eventually, if things don't work out, that I will be happy too. <p>Any comments? <p>-Still heartbroken and yes still hoping
Hi again aanast2,
Well I must tell you that in reading your story my heart goes out to you. I wanted to share with you an experience Ive had and maybe it will give you another view of things.
Being a woman, I can almost relate to your wife though that may not be a good thing. There was a time when I broke it off with someone very important to me for OM. Lucky enough for me he never gave up and we eventually rekindled our love. But during that time when I wanted all that was between us to end- I believe I was not in love with him and that I didn't want to be. I cared for him yes so much (how could we have had the relationship that we had if I didnt) but I didn't want it anymore. It hurt me so much knowing the pain I was putting him through because I cared for him but at that point I was so confused and there were times where my wanting him to feel better and be happy again turned into physical affection and looking back that gave him the wrong message that i had intended. Anyway perhaps I have confused you now by being too vague. I hurt him but I was hurting myself too without realizing it. Getting back together was the best thing that ever happened to me.
Anyway true love shines through and whatever will be will be. But you were right to say whatever happens you will eventually find happiness-- that shows great strength (I wonder if she knows it).
What ever doesn't kill you makes you stronger- we all learn that sooner or later. But I need to say that there is a very important question you must ask yourself relatively soon. Have you yet passed the point where if she ever did come back it would never be the same??? You say how much she REALLY loved you. Is that simply a past tense thing or is it possible to return to that? Lets say she did turn around, realise her mistakes and love you again. Has the betrayal and pain you have gone through for what in my opinion seems like too long been too much and if she ever did come back the trust would be too difficult to rebuild and it would never be the same-- I ask you? If so then perhaps plan B is in order... If no ( not yet) then there is still hope and work to be done!
And in that case what I would like to pass on to you is a few ideas that I have discovered really help. Just some simple ways to get by. (note: please feel free to pick and choose and just basically ignore me if you wish--I tend to ramble sometimes [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Anyway as I was saying there are small ways to get by. Just by thinking of your situation from different views and adapting other peoples art. For example, songs, poems, even movies. See if they relate to you and then what you think about the message they send. I have found some poems by a greek writer Cavafy to be very deep and yet open. They have been translated from greek and I know it must lose so much from the translation but let me give you an example:
Che fece... Il Gran Rifiuto By Cavafy<p>To certain people there comes a day
when they must say the great Yes of the great No.
He who has the Yes ready within him
reveals himself at once, and saying it he crosses over
to the path of honor and his own conviction.
He who refuses does not repent. Should he be asked again,
he would say No again. And yet that No-
the right No-crushes him for the rest of his life.<p>With that I leave you for now. I hope things turn out for the best but never lose strength in yourself.
Here if you need me,
One who cares
aanast -- First, I would go and read the posts from spacecase who has been doing this for a while now. I think the title of his post over in Gen QII is affairs that don't end or something like that.<p>You are expecting too much too fast from your WW. I did too, but now realize that I have to look for progress on a longer time frame. I am not the world's most patient person and expected my WH to have some kind of epiphany and just get it right away that what he was doing was wrong. It just doesn't work that way or that quickly. <p>I know it is hard. I am approaching just over four months since discovery and cannot believe I put up with this baloney for this long. What I keep reminding myself is that it must have taken a long time to get here -- the deterioration of our marriage (although that is never an excuse for an affair) and what is one more month in the scheme of my marriage. <p>Everything your WW is saying is what they all say and it makes no sense. I kept trying to make sense out of what my WH was saying and after reading on here and every other book on infidelity I can find I came to the conclusion that it will never make sense. <p>I don't really have any pearls of wisdom here other than to tell you that you a) have to be patient in the face of all this, b) look at everything in small bits/steps -- both your improvements and self-examination and her reactions, and c) seek out more advice over on General QII forum here. <p>You can do this. It sounds a bit hokey, but I start out each day looking in the newspaper for stories that remind me how thankful I should be for everything I have in life. It gets me through the day even when my WH is being a complete alien and pain in the @SS. Yes, what he is doing is cruel and thoughtless. Yes, I am in a lot of pain. At the same time, I am healthy and have a great family. I want my WH and believe there is still a chance. But, I also know that I am good person and am doing the right and kind thing by continuing to try. I am giving myself six months of plan A and some days I do not think I am going to make it.<p>The other piece of advice I will give you is to read Divorce Remedy by Michelle Weiner-Davis. The 180 degree concept and some others have helped me lately. It seems as if you and your WW keep having the same conversation. Maybe it would help if you don't engage in that conversation for a while. It isn't going to change anything while she is in her A and it will just make you crazy.<p>It is so hard because I know you want answers and remorse today. It just isn't likely and you need to not focus on getting answers, timeframes, and remorse from her right now. Keep trying to plan A if you can take it, which I think you can.
Onewhocares, thanks for your reply.<p>>I was so confused and there were times where my >wanting him to feel better and be happy again >turned into physical affection and looking back >that gave him the wrong message that i had >intended. Anyway perhaps I have confused you now >by being too vague. I hurt him but I was hurting >myself too without realizing it. Getting back >together was the best thing that ever happened >to me.<p>I hear you. I know my WS cares about me and would like me not to be in pain. I should take what she says and does with a grain of salt until (if it ever happens) she tells me she wants to work on our marriage and leave om. I'm in for the long haul wherever that leads, I'm just not sure what to do along the way.<p>>Have you yet passed the point where if she ever >did come back it would never be the same??? <p>It would never be the same because it has already changed. She wouldn't want things the way they were (the "boring" "disconnected" way) and neither would I (the "dishonest" way.) So in that sense being different could mean better.<p>>You say how much she REALLY loved you. Is that >simply a past tense thing or is it possible to >return to that?
Both. It is a past tense thing yes. She does not REALLY love me now. But it is possible to return to a happy loving STRONGER relationship and I think that is what the MB concepts are all about.<p>>Lets say she did turn around, realise her >mistakes and love you again. Has the betrayal >and pain you have gone through for what in my >opinion seems like too long been too much and if >she ever did come back the trust would be too >difficult to rebuild and it would never be the >same-- I ask you?<p>I don't know how long I can wait. I would love for her to "come back" and "love me again." That is partly why I am waiting. The trust would be difficult to rebuild yes but not impossible. I would like to see if it could. Even though she says she "tried" to work on our marriage, she really never told me anything was wrong or said she wanted to work on things. I am still in shock that she left and want to give it a try with her giving it a try. One honest try from the both of us. I know that is not possible at the moment because it takes two to make a marriage work and she doesn't want to. It may never work but I want to try and find out.<p>>For example, songs, poems, even movies. See if >they relate to you and then what you think about >the message they send.
This is why I've always loved music, movies, and poetry & literature. We can learn and gain perspective from others' insights and experiences. The other day these lyrics made an impression on me:<p>"I'm looking through you,
where did you go,
I thought I knew you,
what did I know,
You don't look different
but you have changed
I'm looking through you,
you're not the same."
-Beatles<p>"Grace. She takes the blame. She covers the shame. Removes the stain. It could be her now. Grace. It's a name for a girl but it's also a thought that changed the world. When she walks on the street, you can hear the strings.
Grace finds goodness in everything. ...
She travels outside of karma. She travels outside of karma....
What once was hurt, what once was friction, what left a mark, no longer stings. Because Grace makes beauty out of ugly things. Grace finds beauty in everything. Grace finds goodness in everything."
-U2<p>>To certain people there comes a day
>when they must say the great Yes of the great No.
>He who has the Yes ready within him
>reveals himself at once, and saying it he >crosses over to the path of honor and his own >conviction. He who refuses does not repent. >Should he be asked again,
>he would say No again. And yet that No-
>the right No-crushes him for the rest of his >life.
I take this to mean that one day I may have to say Yes that my marriage is over....that I made a mistake about my wife about who she is and move on. I hope that I am not mistaken, that she comes to her senses, and comes back before that day comes.<p>unsureheart, Thanks for your reply.
>You are expecting too much too fast from your >WW. I did too, but now realize that I have to >look for progress on a longer time frame. I am >not the world's most patient person and expected >my WH to have some kind of epiphany and just get >it right away that what he was doing was wrong. >It just doesn't work that way or that quickly.
You're right that makes sense. But what do you do in the meanwhile while your WS files for divorce and always seems angry when you speak together.<p>>I know it is hard. I am approaching just over >four months since discovery and cannot believe I >put up with this baloney for this long. What I >keep reminding myself is that it must have taken >a long time to get here -- the deterioration of >our marriage (although that is never an excuse >for an affair) and what is one more month in the >scheme of my marriage.
I agree, a concept Dr. Phil also shares. If our marriages don't work, hopefully we'll have some peace of mind knowing we did EVERYTHING possible to make it work.<p>>The other piece of advice I will give you is to >read Divorce Remedy by Michelle Weiner-Davis. >The 180 degree concept and some others have >helped me lately. It seems as if you and your WW >keep having the same conversation. Maybe it >would help if you don't engage in that >conversation for a while. It isn't going to >change anything while she is in her A and it >will just make you crazy.
I read a few pages of it (on affairs, pending divorce, last resort, and the really last resort - like Plan b)
This makes total sense. I think my problem with my Plan A (when she was at home but even now) is that we kept talking about our relationship and repeating the same thing (annoying her and me.) I should have worked more on me and less on trying to "convince" her since I can't really do that (even though I can't help but want to.) I've tried not to bring it up but she keeps bringing up divorce and selling the house etc..<p>>Keep trying to plan A if you can take it, which >I think you can.
I can. I wonder if it is the best for my specific case or not. Ultimately my goal of course is to work on our marriage/save it etc, but obviously she has to want to. Part of our marital problems were that I was "letting her do whatever she wanted and not being tough with her" and "spending too much time on myself and friends and interests." Isn't that just what Plan A and B are in a way (working on self and not love busting? Do I get "tough" with her if that is what she wants? How do I do that? I know it is not filing for divorce. I guess until she wants to work on the marriage showing "tough love" won't make a difference or will be misinterpreted.)<p>Update:<p>I continue to not call my wife (I don't want to seem pushy or pathetic. And honestly, I feel better about myself when I'm at work and with friends keeping my mind off things; when I talk to her I get down.) I see her on the weekends because I visit her family (who have been like my family as I've mentioned for pratically my whole life.) She avoids me then.<p>During the week however, she called me a few times. Specifically she wanted me to switch over the cell phone to her name (so as she said "can receive messages from OM without me hearing and using against her." i.e. telling her parents.) I have no problem with that since I don't use it anyway.
However, I'm concerned that since she has said she knows I'm a good guy and she says for me not to trust her (she says she doesn't trust herself), that perhaps she wants me to "help her" get on with her new life. (I always handled things like accounts, financial stuff, the house, bills, etc.) I think it is clear from all my posts that I want what is best for my marriage above all else, but I don't think that means help her file for divorce or sell the house, etc. Perhaps she is taking advantage of me? Perhaps she is not being as independent as she wants because she wants me to figure out the house situation.<p>She was very angry with me today. She says I'm controlling her because I won't give her "her money" from the house. I told her I wasn't keeping anything from her. She said to give her "her money" then. I said she can have it, to go ahead and take it, I'm not keeping it from her. She said I was by not selling the house or refinancing to give her the share of equity in it that is hers. She again warned me to do something soon like find a roommate because soon she will be moving out of her parents into her own apartment and will stop paying her share of the mortgage and bills and I will be screwed. She also seemed to be worried that I would screw us both if I didn't pay the mortgage because we'd lose the house and both of our equity. She was really angry. Angry at me. She accused me of purposely manipulating things to not let her get her money and get on with her life. She said fine about me not wanting a divorce, that she would save up and pay for it, but that if I don't give her "her money" (she must have said money a million times) her lawyer would be calling me.<p>I tried to remain pleasant. I told her we'd talk later and figure something out (I tried to remain very general.) I told her I didn't want to fight with her and reminded her about not talking about "things." She said this isn't about her feelings/relationship but about reality. She thinks I'm in a dreamland by not accepting that things are over. I told her I'm not trying to "control her" that I'm not doing "anything" but going to work, paying the bills etc.. She said that I'm paying the bills with her money, and that I'm living in the house which is hers too, and since I won't sell I need to figure out what to do. I told her that I didn't leave, she did. I didn't understand why I should have to do those things (i.e. make it easier for her to "move on".) I'm not trying to be manipulative. It seems that I'm lovebusting whatever I do. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I know I shouldn't analyze what she says and does. It won't make sense because it doesn't make sense. However, it does help to just "let out" by writing here about our interactions. I know in reality that if she is going to want to work on things I have to wait for reality to set in and for her A to "die a natural death." It may be awhile but I'm for the long haul. <p>Thanks for listening out there.<p>-Heartbroken and hoping
Here's another update:<p>I saw my WS. I helped her get a new cell phone at Best Buy because the old one was giving her problems (the receipt was in my name.) The account is still in my name. Things were ok. She then brought up talk about the future which I told her I didn't want to talk about. She said the same things. Give me my money from the house etc.. I just listened. New things she said are that what she did in the past was an affair but now that I know about it and now that she is apart from me it is not an affair anymore. She said her friends at work supported her on this. She said she will be divorcing me because she does not love me anymore and will pay for all of it since I don't want it (as soon as she can afford it.) She was also mad that I had friends over at the house and was having a good time "at her expense" (?) with "her money" (?). I guess since she owns the house too, in her mind I can't live life there or something. (?) She did mention that she misses my giving her massages.<p>Nothing else really new. I did find a journal she kept which was enlightening. Lots of contradictions in thought but it is also very clear that she intends on divorcing me asap. Here is what she wrote (my thoughts are in parentheses):<p>"Dear Whomever,<p>I feel immense pressure, I feel bad...guilty, I completely destroyed someone...someone I use to care for deeply...someone who I was convinced and believed was the man of my life. I can't deny that what I felt for (me) was strong and very real, I genuinely loved him. My love was pure and sincere. He was perfect in so many ways, it just made so much sense and felt so right. The guilt I feel runs so deep, not only am I hurting (me) but also my family whom I care for deeply. <p>Everyone treats me like a child, they talk for me, tell me what I'm feeling and make choices for me. Perhaps that is my doing, for having allowed them to do so. It is so apparent to me my level of immaturity and inexperience. I only wish I recognized all of this sooner, before poor (me) came along, maybe then I wouldn't have decided on marriage. <p>I really wish I had given myself time to be alone after I broke up with (ex-boyfriend) but no I began another intense relationship soon after (my note: we didn't start dating until 3 months after she broke up with him and we didn't get married until 3 1/2 years after that. Isn't that enough time?) and I hope and pray I do not make the same mistake (my note: isn't that what she is doing with OM?). <p>I believe I'm like my father in that I am easily swept away by emotions. When things feel right I let my heart take me wherever and not my mind/brain. I really do understand where my parents are coming from. I understand their worries and hurt. However, they need to understand that what I do or the choices I make in my life are not a reflection of their "parenting." These are my choices and *my* choices alone. I am honestly doing what I feel is right for me and they may not agree or even understand me but they need to know I am doing something I feel so strongly about (my note: that much is clear), they need to trust me (my note: kinda hard because of what is going on), I'm not an idiot and I want to prove it to them, if they will only give me the chance. Beleive me...I know things are messed up. What I did was wrong (my note: innteresting use of the past tense, I guess that means she things that what she is now doing is right), I should have been woman enough to own up to what I was doing instead I was a coward, another failure. I really disappointed myself and it hurts a lot. I feel as if my life and everything I used to know is spinning out of control. <p>Sometimes I feel that everyone is making thier "weird" situation too easy. Everyone is willing to put things aside and look past my actions just as long as I return to where they think I belong wihtout even so much as a slap on the hands. They continue to baby me by saying "Oh, she was just having a moment, but she's past it now, you know how impulsive and carried away she gets but see it was just temporary, as usual...let's move on...til' the next crazy time!" And then everyone breathes a sigh of relief because everything returns back to normal, the "picture perfect life!" Well I'm here to tell you that my life is not picture perfect. I've done things, said things that I don't feel proud of. I want to change and become a better person, ultimately I want to feel that my life has a purpose and that I'm living it the best and happiest I can. However, I know that I can't please myself and everyone else at the same time. So then how can I decide who to hurt, me or them? Am I being too greedy by deciding what's best for me? Does pleasing me at the expense of others mean I am ultimately not pleasing myself? How can I go on and not feel guilt? Why does my mom make it a choice/battle between "them" and him.<p>And him, (OM), does he deserve all of this? I love him, I really do but I'm afraid of hurting him or being hurted. What I've been feeling for him for such a long time is sincere. What started as an attraction turned into a crush and lead to love. And the fact that he feels the same way is amazing. I love (OM), however, his love doesn't blind me, it is not unhealthy, on the contrary, I feel very clear and enlightened. I am not caught up in the moment, what I feel when I'm with him is so special and honest. I have nothing but good times spiritual connections with him. I want him to help me better my life. I want to do it on my own but I want him to share those moments with me. He is such a wonderful person and I can't believe how lucky I am to have him in my life and the fact that he is able to see past my complicated life shows me how much he does care for me. I want so much for my family to accept him, my family is such a huge part of me, my family, my friends, everything that is familiar to me. But I know that unfortunately... it won't be easy. <p>I feel as if not only am I divorcing (me) but my family, the dog, the house and every little thing in the house we built together. It is so sad to me that such a beautiful thing has to come to its, I believe, inevitable end. An end that was not caused by (OM). (Me) and I changed, grew apart, his needs and wants were not shared by me any more. I hate to think of his pain and I'm constantly reminded that to take care of his pain all I have to do is reach my hand out to him and that would make everything okay, for him... but not for me. Then I wonder am I being unfair to him, does he deserve a second chance? But it's just that I wonder, if I were to give him a second chance, how would things be different. I hate that everyone is so shocked by my actions and thoughts but once again that's my fault because I always tried my hardest to maintain the "image" everyone had of "the world's most perfect couple." And then I blame myself for not being so up front with (me), but then I think to myself. I talked to (me) about my feelings so how much more candid could I have been (my note: she never once told me that our relationship was in serious trouble and we needed to work on things or get counseling or anything like that. Never ever. Sometimes I'm still in shock. When she told me about OM, at that point, she said our marriage was over, that is when I tried to do plan A, during my plan A is when her EA turned to a PA.) <p>I just hate that everyone thinks I am a bad person ... I never meant to hurt anyone ... I'm only human. I made a mistake and now I'm paying the price. And what a pretty penny it's costing me. I just hope that all of this had a bright ending. But that's probably asking too much. How much longer can I take this, how many more people will I hurt, how many more people can I turn against me? How much longer can I continue to hurt (me)? I know he's in such pain and I am truly sorry about that. I feel so tired... how will all of this turn out? Where will my life go from here, in which direction?"<p>Well, there you have it. I knew most of this from what she has already told me. I don't know if anyone was supposed to read this or not.<p>Any comments?<p>-heartbroken and hoping
Wow aanast that is quite a journal/dairy entry. It sounds as if she was/is unhappy with who she is and part of the reason for the A was to prove to herself that she could do something/pursue something not blessed by her family. I'm sure there is more to it than that, but that dairy entry really sounds like a) someone who is confused about life and the choices she has made (not just the A), b) someone who does care about you, and c) someone still living in the fantasy that OM can make everything alright. <p>I think we can all understand how escaping from reality can be such a temptation. Aren't there days where you would like to run away from it all? The difference here is that WW/WHs translate the fantasy into escaping with another person who they picture as superhuman and able to take away all of their pain and daily complications. It's like a drug. I am not saying that they do not actually fall in love with the other person (it's painfully obvious to me that they do feel love), but that that love is based on a fantasy that this other person can solve everything. Well, the hard part is that life just doesn't work that way. You have to make yourself happy and you can't depend on another person to do that for you. <p>I am really sorry that you are in this situation. I do, however, think that the dairy/journal writing gives you a BIG clue as to what to do right now. Back off as much as you possibly can and let her feel like you are letting her make her own decisions. On the house, tell her that you agree that if you divorce, it makes sense to sell the house, but that you aren't at that point yet and could she give you 6 months (or something like that -- I'm not an expert, but I'm thinking somehow you need to let her know that you are considering her "decision" but that she's making you move too fast or something along those lines). <p>Can you afford counseling with one of the Harley's? I have had three phone sessions and it has helped tremendously in terms of fine-tuning what I should do based on my specific situation. It's expensive, but worth it in terms of my feeling a bit more in control over my life.<p>Maybe re-post the journal entry and a bit of background over in General Questions II forum -- it gets more traffic from people much further along in this than me and maybe they could help you interpret.<p>Best of luck.
Dear aanast2,
Well it was very interesting to hear the way she looks at things. There were two things I wanted to tell you 1) I don't think that asking you to take care of the business with the house and money and getting angry at you for not doing it is very fair. It seems as if she is trying to find an easy way out... plus I don't know how she can expect you to be willing to do all you can to break off the marriage when she knows that you want to and are trying to bring it back together 2) Her journal entry shows how confused she is and how she is constantly trying to justify her actions to herself. By saying to herself that she is only human or that she is just trying to follow her heart gives her an excuse not to feel guilty. The problem is that she does anyway. The good thing is that she is not a bad person and she is not being cruel to you, she is just confused and addicted to the new independance she feels. How this will influence the future I don't know-- only time will tell. But it seems to me that you are handling things as good as can be expected.
It was very inspiring to hear the lyrics you relate to. I was wondering if you wouldn't mind me sharing with you some of the dilemas I will be facing in the near future. In a way its the complete other side of the coin but perhaps you can give me any comments or opinions you may have. This summer I am leaving where I am now and moving to Boston where I will work for at least the next three years. However, and this is beyond our control, the one I love will be drafted into the army for a manditory two years. Our lives will be completely separated. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] In fact we only have a month left to be together after a beautiful 18 months. I don't know what to do. I don't even know that I can make it without him. But our lives will change so much.
Well I guess we all have it hard one way or another. But stay strong and whatever happens I am sure you will be better off. I have faith in that. and to leave you today I say this:<p>Is this the real life?
or is this just fantasy?
Caught in a landslide or escape from reality?
Open your eyes, look up to the skies and see:
I'm just a poor boy (girl in this case) I need no sympathy because I'm easy-come easy-go, little high little low, any way the wind blows doesn't really matter to me. ---Queen---<p>We all feel a little like this sometimes... but the beauty of life can always sweap you away, even if its just for a little while.
thanks for listening too
one who cares
unsureheart, thanks for the reply.<p>quote-------------------------------------------
really sounds like a) someone who is confused about life and the choices she has made (not just the A), b) someone who does care about you, and c) someone still living in the fantasy that OM can make everything alright.
quote-------------------------------------------<p>well based on my more recent conversations with her in the past week, you're right about a few things
a)she is confused
b)she does care about me
c) I don't know, I hope things fail between them and she comes back to me.<p>On Thursday, she came over again to get some of her things and we spoke and both cried and held each other and kissed. She asked me about what I've been doing. I told her that I've been trying to keep busy with friends, work, exercise, etc. I did also say that I constantly think about her and us, how I messed up, the past, the future, that I'm in pain, I miss her terribly. Finding out about me living a new life seemed to ease her guilt (while I know I want her to love me and not pity me to come back, it seems right now that if she is considering coming back, it is because of my pain and when she sees that I'm "having fun" then she feels like I'm moving on and so she should also. I'm confused on this part.) She told me she missed me and loved me. she told me she was confused. She said she felt like a whore doing this with me, going back from OM to me and how OM wouldn't like it. However, she told me she has made her decision. I told her that in all cases of someone wanting to walk away from a marriage without even trying to work on it once together is because of a third party being involved. She says she would like counseling to help herself but not in any way to work on the marriage. She brought up how she is getting an apartment and may live with her cousin. I told her that I respect her feelings and that she needs to do what she needs to do but I want her back. She mentioned that this summer she will not be seeing OM much or me and maybe that will help her figure things out. She did say though that he will visit her when she gets her apartment. She asked me how I could forgive her after all she has done. I told her that I love her and I'm surprised too at the patience and forgiveness that I have. I told her that we have a bond/connection/love that we will always have. I told her that I am hoping that someday she may change her mind and want to work on the marriage. I tried to cut our meeting short and she kept wanting to stay longer, pulling me back to her. I had friends over and she wanted to leave out the window. She didn't though and asked me to the car and to sit and talk with her even more. We joked a bit and laughed. I even said that I'll have to work on my technique at sweeping floors to win her back (OM is a janitor.) We laughed. At one point, she said I wasn't trying to win her back. I asked her what can I do? and jokingly said "beat up OM"? She said no, she would hate me if I did. I told her of course I wouldn't (honestly as angry, mad, and sick I get thinking about them together I wouldn't do it), I know it would drive her further away from me, and I told her ultimately she has to decide and want to come back. I told her I hope she is the good person that I know her to be. I said that I know that ultimately she wants to be happy and feel loved. She agreed. I told her that I believe that I am that person who can make her happy and feel loved. This is the first time I've seen her like this in a long time (i.e. not angry, actually wanting to be with me physically and to talk about things/anything, and for her too seem not so sure about herself.) <p>I wished she went as far as telling me it was over with OM and she wants to work on the marriage. I called her the next few days (partly because of the new hope I saw and partly because of her comment that I wasn't trying to win her back.) She didn't want to talk on any of those days. She finally asked me why I keep calling her? I told her why. She said she is sorry about giving me false hope on Thursday night, it was a mistake, etc. I started reading Surviving and Affair. I told her a little about a book I was reading. I mentioned to her that I want to make it clear that I want her to know that I want an opportunity to make our marriage better. She said she wants to make it clear that she doesn't. I told her that until OM is out of her life we can't work on the marriage anyway. I told her I will be patient. She then told me that even if things don't work with her and OM that she will find another guy and date around and she won't come back to work on the marriage and give me "sloppy seconds". She again said she made a mistake getting married. She said her goal is to cut all ties with me.<p>I saw her on Sunday for the Father's Day gathering (she asked me to go.) Her mom and her were fighting again. I talked to her mom about laying off her. Her mom said it is between them. Since she is living under her roof, she has to follow their rules. (My wife didn't get back to their house until 4 A.M. the night before and that triggered the fight. My wife's cousin who is staying with them also and is separated from his girlfriend/mother of his child has been taking my wife out to dance etc. My mother-in-law says he is a bad influence on her.) At the end of the evening, her cousin told me to start dating (that is what he is doing). I told him I wouldn't, that I was married, and maybe someday if I was divorced I would. He, my mother-in-law, and myself spoke briefly about my situation with my wife. I told them I just have to be patient and hope for a miracle. Later I went to say goodnight to my wife and she was angry that we were all talking about her, etc. <p>I guess I'm just going to go back to what I was doing. I'm going to not call her but let her call me and meet her needs when I can. I'll do this for as long and I can but I think if she moves into an apartment I will go to plan B. I'm concerned about how she interprets my actions. This is my take on her right now:<p>1. The guilt she feels because of my pain may be making her unsure and want to come back. So, if she sees that I am moving on, having fun, being strong, then I am making her decision for her or easier because she will feel less guilt or think I don't want/need her.<p>2. I am meeting her family needs in a way because of my bond and support of her family which is an important part of her life. Her wish is for me to disappear and her family to accept OM and live happily ever after. If I plan B, do I stop bbqing, playing volleyball, hanging out, with her family? I may see her. If I do cut them out of my life also, she may see this as she was right about me not really like them. Her mom said her daughter moves out she is Plan Bing too. Maybe if my wife is all alone in an apartment by herself without the support of me, her friends, and family, reality will set in and she will come back. Perhaps she needs to be on her own and be independent (an issue she has) and an opportunity for the A to happen so it will fail. I don't know. She seems to describe the OM as a patient, nice guy like me. Since he has nothing to lose, he will probably wait too. However, he won't be there for her as I had because of his mulitiple jobs and family commitments. <p>On the other hand though, I've noticed one thing about my wife since all of this started. Whenever I first see her, she is angry and/or distant. If I'm with her for a longer period of time, after a bit she opens up and talks and lets me meet her needs. Then she says confused. (This happened a lot when she was still living with me.) So in some ways I should want to be with her for long periods of time so I can meet her needs (which my piss off OM, which is good too [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
However, she doesn't want me to, hence her comment of wanting to "cut all ties with me."<p>3. Ultimately I know I cannot change her. I can only change me. I love her. I know if I didn't it would be easier to walk away. I more than love her though. She and her family have been in my life for 18 years (since we were both 9.) Something tells me to hang on. I think I know her (or thought I did.) I know I will be ok someday, whatever happens. She is worth waiting for. I won't wait forever obviously but am in for the long haul. <p>quote------------------------------------------
Back off as much as you possibly can and let her feel like you are letting her make her own decisions.
quote-------------------------------------------<p>I agree.<p>quote-------------------------------------------
On the house, tell her that you agree that if you divorce, it makes sense to sell the house, but that you aren't at that point yet and could she give you 6 months (or something like that -- I'm not an expert, but I'm thinking somehow you need to let her know that you are considering her "decision" but that she's making you move too fast or something along those lines).
quote-------------------------------------------<p>I've tried the buying more time thing. She says she has been telling me for months that she is getting her own apartment and doesn't want my excuse for more time. There are 2 issues here, 1) paying mortgage which she won't if she has to pay rent and 2) her equity, if there is even any, in the house, that she wants. I'm going to try to avoid the issue. I don't want to ever sell the house (I'll get a roomate if I have to.) I guess I will just try to get more time from her and tell her I'm considering her decision if I'm asked.<p>quote-------------------------------------------
Can you afford counseling with one of the Harley's? I have had three phone sessions and it has helped tremendously in terms of fine-tuning what I should do based on my specific situation.
quote-------------------------------------------<p>I spoke with Jennifer but she seemed to explain concepts I knew already, give me general advice, and confirm what I already knew. I have a session with Steve tomorrow that I hope will be more specific to my situation.<p>
onewho cares, thanks for your reply.<p>quote-------------------------------------------
1) I don't think that asking you to take care of the business with the house and money and getting angry at you for not doing it is very fair. It seems as if she is trying to find an easy way out... plus I don't know how she can expect you to be willing to do all you can to break off the marriage when she knows that you want to and are trying to bring it back together
quote-------------------------------------------<p>well, she is obviosly concerned with her self and her new independence now. It does seem a bit contradictory that she wants to be independent but still asks me (and others) to take care of things for her.<p>quote-------------------------------------------
2)The good thing is that she is not a bad person and she is not being cruel to you, she is just confused and addicted to the new independance she feels. How this will influence the future I don't know-- only time will tell. But it seems to me that you are handling things as good as can be expected.
quote-------------------------------------------<p>She is not a bad person. I hope that after she tries being independent and finds herself, she realizes that she wants to be with me. I hope I'm doing the right thing and best thing to help her, help myself, and help our marriage. In many ways I feel bad/sorry for her because of her pain and confusion, and because I honestly think (even though I am biased) that she is making a mistake.<p>quote-------------------------------------------
This summer I am leaving where I am now and moving to Boston where I will work for at least the next three years. However, and this is beyond our control, the one I love will be drafted into the army for a manditory two years. Our lives will be completely separated. In fact we only have a month left to be together after a beautiful 18 months. I don't know what to do. I don't even know that I can make it without him. But our lives will change so much.
Hmmm.. I recommend trying to keep up the communication between both of you. Write letters, phone calls, email, the more kinds the better. My wife and I spent some time apart when we were dating because I went to college in another city. I would visit whenever possible but kept the communication up daily. Do as much as you possibly can and can afford. Also, keep in mind the Harley's concepts of needs being met. Some of your needs and his needs (physical, affection, communication, etc) will not be met by each other because of the distance. Hence, your feeling of not being able to make it on your own. You will be able to make it. If you both have a commitment to each other, then you both must be careful about your relationships with people of the opposite sex because they will start meeting your needs and new feelings will develop, etc. That is when choices are made. It is not easy if someone feels lonely, the temptation can be irresistable for some. Good luck to you.<p>People have hardships in life. People make mistakes. Perhaps things happen for a reason. Certain things don't just happen, people make choices. We must learn from our mistakes and our lows to improve ourselves and live better lives. <p>Take care all,
-heartbroken and hopeful
I talked to Steve Harley today. He gave me some great insight on how love is conditional. He also helped me see that emotions cannot factor in change when predicting the future. This came me some hope about depositing into her love bank without her knowing it (sorta like OM did) and presto! she falls in love with me.<p>I see how this can work both ways. Either I slowly and gradually set up the conditions for her to fall in love with me, or throughout the long process I fall out of love before she falls back into it. It is very sad that things are this far gone.<p>I spoke to my wife and told her about my counseling with Steve. I told her about my realization of myself and role as her partner. My understanding of who I was and should have been as her husband. I told her I am still gaining insight on what I could have done differently. I told her that "no matter what happens" I am a changed man. I look back at that period in my life and see that I transformed into an unattractive person. I told her that he no longer exists. I emphasized that I've opened up my eyes to my responsibilities and am learning from history (past mistakes) to change myself FOR MYSELF. I believe it is in my best interests.<p>I told her all that and left it at that. (As tempting as it was, for once I did not mention our future together or not or the OM. She did mention divorce/separation, him, and her getting her own apartment again just to make sure I know and clear about her intentions.)<p>I also asked if she would go to a seminar this weekened and/or talk to Steve. In both cases I told her it is just to gain information, see what options there are, learn about relationships, no matter what happens. I told her that in no way does her going imply that she is committing to the marriage and I won't be getting my hopes up.<p>She will let me know about her availability to do either.<p>My wife and I also spoke very calmly and pleasantly about the problems we had in our marriage. We agreed on them. We agreed that the number one issue was my lack of showing her affection. <p>We agreed to disagree on whether that is just my nature or not (whether or not I am capable of showing her the high amounts of affection that she needs). She thinks that it is a cultural thing (perhaps because her OM is the same race as her and I am not.) <p>We talked about other issues that I took responsibility for (I filled out a LB questionaire that I sent to S.H. that pretty much acurately jived with what my wife feels I did wrong.)<p>She did admit that she should have been more honest about things with me. She admits that she is a very good liar and she doesn't like that about herself (she said she could come back home and still do what she is doing and I'd never know.) She said that basically she always cared about an image of what other people think (which is true) and realizes that is wrong. She says she knows she is losing a lot (friends and family) but she doesn't care, she needs to do this for her own independence (which not only includes OM, but shopping on her own, paying bills, possibly dating others, etc.) She says it is not easy for her and is sorry for my pain and everyone else's too but she is 100% made up her mind about her future.<p>She spoke the whole time about us and our relationship in the past tense and grouped me with her ex-boyfriend from high school. She said the difference is that I spoiled her which was my fault and hers. She says she knows she always goes for what she wants (which is bad she said) yet she knows she is doing it again this time (with OM and new life.) She said when she has that feeling of love she throws herself completely into it and that person's life (like she did with me and ex-boyfriend and now OM.)<p>I remained calm during the conversation. I see now the long road ahead for me. Even though I hope and want her back, I have serious doubts that she will ever come back to me. Part of me thinks I will only carry on with Plan A because my love will disappear and then the end will be easier. I feel like I have a one in a gazillion shot of succeeding in woo-ing her back. But who knows?<p>-Heartbroken and sitll hoping
aanast -- I thought I would give you a little inspiration (I know everyone's situation is different, but I wanted to give you some hope). I was in a similar place several months ago. The A was still going on and my WH was lying about it. My WH was living in his own apartment. When I spent time with my WH I heard the same confusion statements/care about you/love you but not in love with you. My WH vascillated between angry and not able to talk to being mainly pleasant with me as long as I did not bring up anything related to the future or his A or the OW.<p>What a long strange trip it's been. I did a pretty good plan A for 4 months (the first month after I found out I was just one big love buster) and was really losing patience and hope. My plan A made a big difference for me. I ran and worked out more than I had in years. I entered running competitions. I spent more time with friends and family. I planned fun trips/outings for myself. I started to have a life outside of my life with WH.<p>Last week I realized that I could live without him and that I would be ok. I wanted him in my life, but I would be more than ok without him in it. I let him know last week -- after 5 months (I thought I could make it until 6 months but I couldn't) -- that I was losing patience and that he needed to make a decision soon about whether he wanted to work on our marriage(I emphasized it was his decision/he has similar issues with being told what to do as your wife) or I was really moving on and I would be ok. He emailed back and said he wanted to move home and work on our marriage. This was the first indication I had that this was his thinking at all and I almost fell out of my chair at work.<p>We will discuss all of this this weekend.<p>I tell you this to tell you to continue to have patience and keep working on your plan A for you. No matter what you will feel better about you and that you tried. Each day has been a challenge for me, but I keep telling myself that I need to try. <p>Keep trying. Be patient. Your wife is confused and I believe there is still hope. The only other thing I wanted to say is that you need to really try and disengage from any conversations with any members of her family about her or the A. She feels controlled and right or wrong, your speaking with them (even if you don't initiate the conversation) contributes to her feelings of being controlled.
Dear aanast2,
Thank you for your response and advice-I will do my best and whatever I can.
Now back to you: well from what you keep telling me I just keep thinking again and again that your WS has got that feeling of addiction to her new found "independance" which she thinks she never "really" had before and she owes it to herself to stick with it and think of herself first and what she wants... its a form of self righteousness and there really isn't anything you can do about... the thing is this wont last for ever and you are right in saying that one day she is will just come back to reality and this may include not wanting to be so independant-- it becomes too lonely. At that point she may want you back, she may just ditch OM, or she may just find someone or something new to rely on. The only thing I think you know for sure right now is that she pushes away most of anything you try to give her and has decided that in being and finding her "independence" she must lose her ties to you as much as possible- how very unfair!
So the thing is now- what can you do? well perhaps trying and giving her a taste of plan b would alter that current situation? I don't know-- only you can decide when the time comes... but perhaps if she begins to feel that she may be losing you and the love she has had for so long and is so used to, maybe is will give her a bit of a kick back into realising the depth of what is going on... perhaps I am judging her too much- you know I am just an outsider- but right now that is my opinion. And second of all-don't forget about you. I don't think you need to cut off the ties you have with her family because well it is a free country (there!) and your relationship with them is independant of your marriage. besides everyone needs family
But you need to take some of her advice in a way. Now its time for you to focus a bit more on you-- the fact that you say you are a changed person means that you have grown from this experience no matter what the outcome and that is a good thing. Perhaps trying to move on some-- not so much that you could never go back, but enough that day to day life is a bit happier.
I want you to know that more people out there care about you than you know.
Anyway take care and let me know your thoughts,
one who cares
Thanks unsureheart and onewhocares, (and anyone else out there!)<p>Things seem to be getting worse for my marriage. As I mentioned, last Thursday my wife came over and cried, kissed me, and told me she missed and loved me (she hadn't done that in at least two months if that). Well since then, she has redoubled her efforts to end our marriage, push me away, and provoke my anger. <p>She is back on the !ANGRY! "my money" phone calls. She said I will be hearing from a "mediator" next week and as of July she will no longer have her checks deposited into our joint account to pay the mortgage, loans, bills etc. (Lately our checking account has been in the negative. She and I know it is not because of me. I only pay the bills and haven't been spending on anything else besides some groceries. She claims she wants the money in her own account so she can see where it is going and for her own apartment. She admitted that she has spent "a little" more than usual but that OM buys everything for her in her new relationship.)<p>As for her mom situation, she says that her mom said she must choose between parents and OM and if she leaves their house and it is not to come back to me, she is not her daughter any more. She says she is leaving regardless and she knows that "time heals all wounds" and her mom will accept her someday.<p>She is adamantly determined to get her "thousands" out of our home's equity, pay her for our furniture that she doesn't want, etc... (which I am not "keeping" from her but she somehow thinks I am.) She "apologized" for "screwing me over" in our marriage and that she now has to "screw me over" financially. She was extremely angry the whole conversation because supposedly I am "controlling" her and keeping these (financial) "ties" to her by continuing to put things off. She has stated that her goal is to cut all ties with me asap. <p>She intends to come over next week and go over the numbers etc, and talk about which part of each credit card's debt belongs to who, etc. <p>Her anger subsided a bit when I showed good listening skills. She wanted me to agree to what she should get, etc. I did not agree or make any decisions about things with her, I just restated what she had told me for clarity (as a good listener should.) It seemed to make her feel better that she knew I heard every word she said.<p>I hope to talk to the counselor again for some advice on how to handle the "money" situation. I'm thinking that my Plan A is coming to an end soon and will probably go to Plan B when she moves into her apartment (which I believe will be mid-July or at the start of August.) I want to show her that I am giving her space and am not trying to keep any money or anything that is not mine. I just want to do the right thing. I will go to Plan B to save the remaining love I have for her but believe that she will see it as me being more controlling because then the lawyers will have to do the communication regarding all the money. <p>I wonder how I keep Plan B up though if I'm in the house and she comes over to get things (financial papers, furniture etc.)?<p>As for our M, she said it is unhealthy, sick, and obsessive for me to want her back after what she has told me she has done. For me to say I am patient or hoping or have love for her is not love but is sick. She said I'm in denial. She said it is not right for a man to forgive his wife for doing such things, the commitment was over a long time ago, and (of course the usual) what do I have to do to get you to let me go, get pregnant?
She thinks I should be angry with her and thinks it is not healthy that I haven't shown her my anger (she admits she has been angry and disrespectful to me for a long, long time.) Throughout the phone call, she tried her best to get me to have an angry outburst with her but I remained calm. She said she has noticed that this whole time I never once got angry at her. She confessed to being with OM when she was living with me and went out every single day to think "on her own." She says that she is in a committed relationship right now that will never end but even if it did, "we" would never work because I would be too angry and resentful since I'm bottling it up right now. <p>While I am angry, hurt, depressed at times, sad, confused, hopeful, and a myriad of other emotions, I am not bottling things up. I am just choosing not to express my anger when I speak with her because I want her to feel that I am a safe place to go to when the A is over. I am finding ways to express and deal with my emotions, and let them happen (doesn't mean I should act on them). The counselling helps, reading helps, posting messages helps, being with supportive friends helps, exercise helps. <p>One thought that has helped me lately is knowing that one should not make life decisions based on emotions (especially when one is on a emotional rollercoaster.) <p>Thanks for reading,
-Heartbroken and hoping
Your situation developed much like mine did. Now, I'm hardly an expert, but I'll tell you what I did. I always welcome other people's advice, so here's mine.<p>You wrote: she has redoubled her efforts to end our marriage, push me away, and provoke my anger.
She is back on the !ANGRY!...<p>Isn't that showing her frustrations that you aren't falling into her plans? I mean, if you reciprocate anger, that would make her feel better about what she is doing, and would in some way justify her actions.<p>You wrote: As for her mom situation, she says that her mom said she must choose between parents and OM and if she leaves their house and it is not to come back to me, she is not her daughter any more. <p>That's exactly what my father-in-law said to my WW. I don't know if that's good or bad, but at least she doesn't have the support from her parents. On the other hand, I think that my WW's parents help push her closer to the OM by saying these things. But one thing's for sure, when she comes out of her fog, my WW won't be able to turn to her parents. She'll be on her own.<p>I went through the splitting of property and bills, too. I put all our posessions on a spreadsheet along with a value that I determined that was fair. Then I split things up, knowing some things that WW wanted, and others that I wanted. I randomly split everything else, making sure that everything that I didn't want was on her side of the list. Bills were split equally as well. Even my student loans - the loans were bills that occurred during our marriage, and she agreed to me getting them. In this way, she was able to see that everything was split equally and fairly. As for the house, I suppose you should contact an attorney about that. I would suspect that you would have to either "buy her out" or sell it and split the profits. In my case, our house is in forclosure, so nobody gets it. But what chaps my a** is the fact that her OM is using my riding mower and grill. It must be great for him to have all this new stuff. I don't think that I could ever use another man's things with a crear conscious, knowing how he aquired them. He's definitely scum.<p>Does she still have a key to your house? I had my WW give me her key when she moved out. If she no longer lives here, why should she feel free to come and go when she wants? And as for the rest of my WW things that were in my house after she moved out, I put it all in the garage, so she has no reason to come into my house. I wasn't trying to be mean. I simply didn't want to make things easy for her, or always on HER terms. After all, it was her decision to move out.<p>You wrote: As for our M, she said it is unhealthy, sick, and obsessive for me to want her back after what she has told me she has done. For me to say I am patient or hoping or have love for her is not love but is sick. <p>Like I said before, I think it would make her feel better if you were mean to her, or told her that you don't forgive her. It hurts her, knowing what a thoughtful, caring, loving H she is leaving. I think it's great that you show such patience, instead of anger or frustration. I wish I were more like you in that way. I agree with you when you said that choosing not to express your anger when you speak will hopefully make her feel that home is a safe place to go to when the A is over. <p>Okay, like I said, I'm far from an expert cuz I'm virtually in the same boat. But it seems to me that you are doing a good Plan A.
just a brief update (nothing new really):

I spent some time with my wife at her parents alone. She wasn't as angry. She let me massage her. During which she told me this was wrong because I should be angry with her and by being with her I was accepting what she is doing with OM because I know about it. She reminded me that she is looking for an apartment and talking to a mediator/lawyer soon. She told me she was getting a tatoo and going on birt control. She told me she would be selling her engagement ring for money. For the most part I remained pleasant and smiling and giving. She admitted that she knew I could be more affectionate etc and have a good marriage with me if she tried because she knows I'm changing but she care anymore and just doesn't want to be with me or love me. She has to live her own life now and be with OM, etc.

Later she called me a bit more angry, pressuring me to sell/refinance to give her "her money" from the house. She also wanted to know her student loan amounts and due dates as well as other bills (her cellphone and the car) because she is calculating her budget for when she moves into her apartment. She says starting in July she will not deposit her paychecks into the joint account, pay house bills, or the mortgage and is opening her own.

Sometimes I feel very angry but have not acted on it. I feel like I'm near the end of my rope with her and think about Plan B. It kills me to see teddy bears from OM in her bedroom at her parents, for example (not to mention her talking about him or my thoughts.)

I'm thinking Plan B soon but really have my doubts about it working in terms of my marriage (but maybe will help me get over her.) Perhaps once she gets her own place and I plan B, reality will set in for her. I don't know.

I keep asking myself, why am I doing this? If she does come back and wants to work on the marriage, what kind of marriage will it be? How can I ever trust her again? I will have to "babysit" her and keep track of every little thing she does and so much more to build trust again and I don't like that idea. I know, I know that in the long run it could be all worth it. I will probably be re-engergized to Plan A if she comes back but what a nightmare this is!

Soon (depending on her next actions and whether I plan B) I will have to at least get some advice from lawyers I know. That sucks too.

Sorry to sound so down. I have hope for my marriage but the reality of things point towards its dissolution.

-Heartbroken and hoping
2/22/02 WW out w/OM discussing marital problems until 3AM
3/02 WW wants separation, admits "feelings" for OM. Loves me but not "in love" with me.
3/02-4/02 WW moves to parents but visits me.
4/02-5/02 Plan A starts. WW moves back, rarely is home. Reveals feelings to OM, PA starts (?)
5/9/02 Discover WW & OM together at beach.
5/12/02 - 6/02 WW moves back into parents'. Some visits and angry calls for her stuff and "her money." She calls me, I don't call her.
6/13/02 WW visits, cries, kisses me, misses me, says she loves me. Feels guilty for cheating on OM with me.(??)
6/14/02 - today
WW Says 6/13 was a mistake & she is in a committed relationship now. Angry phone "f-you" calls continue with intensity about wanting "her money", divorce soon, "regrets marrying me", splitting assets/debts/possessions and I'm "sick for still hoping, waiting" and "an ******* for not selling the house and giving her 'her money'". Plans for her own apartment and her mediator/divorce attorney to talk to me are solidifying.
aanast WOOOOOOOOOOOWWWW. I just read most of your post and the similarities were amazing!
Here is my advice run run run away fast!!!!!
Give your wife the keys to the house and go to Australia.
Okay may be that is not possible but you must plan B NOW, immeditately, yesterday, ASAP.
Stop going to your wife's parent's house. Call them and explain what you must do to save yourself. They will understand. Call other family members as well. They will understand. Unfortunately right now you must let go of her family as well as her. I too had a very strong relationship with my in-laws. I talked to my mom-in-law a lot throughout my one year rollercoaster. I finally stopped talking to her about 3 weeks ago and it has been a blessing. I am feeling wonderful, stronger everyday. I miss talking to them, yes, but right now it does not help me talk to them. I feel like asking them about my WW etc. . It is just too painful. Stop hurting yourself by mainting contact. Honestly, to your wife, you are probably looking too needy, almost pathetic. My wife actually told me that I looked that way. I couldn't help it. I could never imagine losing her. Only talk to your WW with a lawyer present if necessary. It sounds like you might have to have one of those messy divorces with the way your W is sounding lately. You don't need this. My wife came back and kissed me too. God did that confuse me. But it means nothing to them right now. Your W is in the middle of a major A. Get out ASAP. Take a vacation, go visit your dad for awhile. Get away. Send her a plan B letter, check out surviving an affair by Harley for a great example and take off. The first few days will be hard. You will miss her tremendously, but the initial pain is worth it. You will start feeling strong in yourself without depending on her for your happiness. Don't expect anything from her. Take care of yourself. Avoid her!
Dear Andrew,
Hang in there! Sorry I haven't written in a while-been soo busy and now I'm leaving for about a week but I will fill you in on some of the unanswered questions I am sure you have right now when I get back...
You are now at the hardest part but you will make it through and when you do you will be so much stronger. After all you have made it through pretty hard times already.
I may be across the ocean but I'm still here for you always,
one who cares
aanast -- No posts for a while. Just checking in to see how you are doing? My WH is back in the fog and is back to love you/but not in love with you, you are my best friend/but I don't want an intimate connection with you. What a rollercoaster.

Just re-read your last post. Have things gotten any better, worse, the same?

sorry to hear that your situation isn't getting any better.

Mine is basically the same, perhaps worse, perhaps better.

My WW has ordered thousands of dollars worth of new furniture on her own credit account. She says she is moving out of her parents' house on August 1st. There is a lot of conflict continuing between her mom and her about the whole situation.

As for "us" my WW said that she'll be stopping by our house one of these days to pick up more things for her new place. She is less angry when she talks to me. She hasn't mentioned divorce/mediation in a while but then again, I haven't seen/spoken with her in a while. I only see her about once a week.

We did speak a bit last week and I told her more about what I'm learning about myself as an individual and about relationships from counseling and from books and this site. I explained how there is still hope for us and how many other couples have had better marriages after something like this happened to them. She asked even after all she has done it is still possible? and I said yes. She later added that there is less than 1% chance of her coming back. (Alright! my chances are increasing! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

My WW also explained how all of this isn't easy for her. She said she doesn't get to see OM very much, her mom has called her every name in the book and may disown her if she leaves, it is hard for her to find an apartment all by herself, I may never talk to her again when she moves into an apartment, etc. She did admit though that despite how "not easy" it is for her, it is still her choice *and* she knows she has the option to come back home.

Overall I'd say nothing has really changed. I guess that could be a good thing (i.e. prolonging things, time is on my side, etc.) However, once she moves into her own apartment and continues to be surrounded by her "friends" who are advising her to divorce me (because supposedly after all this we could never work things out), it will probably come.

I've been feeling a bit better personally because I've been with friends, I took up an old hobby, and been trying to fill my time with things other than recurring thoughts of her. It is definately less painful to be off the rollercoaster (sort of).

I'll be talking to Steve Harley again soon. I'm curious what other steps I could be taking in my Plan A from a distance. I'm also curious about what to do (if anything) when she moves out of her parents. We also have our 4th year anniversary coming up in early August. Hmmm...

I'll keep you updated. Thanks for listening.
Dear aanast2,
Sorry its been so long. Well for you as things progress you seem to be becoming stronger and more self confident. Knowing that you are doing everything possible to get (back) what you want helps. I hope this makes things better and not worse. I don't mean to spring this up on you. But what is life without risk. I am 19 now-in 9 days I will be off to Jordan to come up with a policy on Racism and Xenophobia for the European Comission and then as soon as I finish that I will come to the USA, college at Tufts University starts in the end of August. I know that your WW makes things seem very hopeless at times- as they say " the light in the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train!" But you are making it and gonna make it either way. If love is strong enough to make it thru this whole mess then it will be worth the effort and pain. If not then this is the best way to truly be able to let go of something so beautiful. Other than this I don't know what to say.., if you have any questions or anything please feel free to write me on this for now. Time wont turn its back on the true.
Happy belated Birthday!
I hope life finds you peace and grace.
With love,
your sister
I bet her asking for money is a result of OM and her arguments about the same. She is seeing the result of her actions. We are free to choose what we do but not the consequences. I suspect her world is starting to unravel. Keep on what you are doing, if she comes back, she will know forever what kind of person she has got. The best.

Hold out on the money as long as you can. She has to find out that we can't always have everything we want. She wants to have her cake and eat it too, but the cake is rapidly disapearing, and she is mad about it. Don't let it get to you.

Dear One Who Cares and Still Seeking,

Thanks for your replies, insight, and support.

Here's an update on what is going on with me:

I counselled with Steve Harley again this morning.

He asked for an update on things. I let him know. He mentioned that my in-laws not accepting my wife's actions/OM etc. can make my wife view O.R. negatively. He said my in-laws are responding appropriately.

He was glad that I was avoiding LBing with my wife (e.g. when I used listening skills when she blew up about me about money.) He was even quite surprised that my wife let me massage her just yesterday when I visited her to drop off her mail.

As for my wishing for my wife to come back/recovery etc, he reminded me quite effectively of what I *should* be focusing on by responding with "What is Plan A all about?"

And of course it is about me. Working on changing myself. Something *I* have control over.

He asked me what changes in myself have I been doing and asked if my wife has noticed them. I don't think I have been very successful in this area. While I think the main thing I don't like about the old me is my being selfish/inconsiderate (e.g. saying "I'll be there in a minute" while surfing the net for hours and hours and neglecting my wife) it is hard to show a change when it is the absence of something. Steve said it has to do with thoughtfulness and it is something I can do with family as well as my wife.

I want to change in other areas too but the question is what to change and how to change.

Interestingly, Steve said that in my case he does not recommend Plan B (even when she moves into her own apartment) because we do not have children and she would not have reminders about me. Plan B then for me would only come when any resentment I have for my wife has grown to the point of me LBing/doing something to undermine all the hard work I have been doing. I am to contact him to keep him updated but especially if I come close to that breaking point or if something else major happens (e.g. my wife files for divorce.)

I felt very hopeful after counseling with Steve. Mostly because I realize further that this is about me and making myself a better person. Changing myself, improving myself, controlling those things that I have control over - namely me. Looking at it that way I have more confidence because I know I can do that and will be better off whatever happens. Because honestly whatever does happen with my marriage, I want to learn from the past/mistakes, grow, and become a better person for myself and whomever I may be with someday.

Thanks for listening out there.
Dear aanast2,
I have been following your threads. I also think a no contact letter may help and also another great one that I found on MB that trueheart wrote. It mad me bawl. I am a BS and just sent WS a no contact letter and Truehearts. If you copy and paste it you can take out the parts about kids or add anything. Sometimes the space apart makes the heart grow fonder. W sounds like she is enjoying breaking your heart! My H does not know what a W he has I guess! Well here is Truehearts Letter now do not cry as it is a very serious one and he is such a couragous man for writing such a great piece. Please let me know how you feel - I know it should be good for you!

Thank you for taking the time and effort to read this letter. I am writing this in hopes that your BS has brought you here in order that you might understand you are not alone in your thoughts and feelings. It is intended to give you a measure of comfort and hope that you can feel safe as you come out the fog that has enveloped you so tightly over the past weeks, months, or years. I do not know m any of you by name, nor do I know of all the details or circumstances surrounding your life, or your affair(s). What I do know is that we share two very important things in our lives and makes us somewhat connected as a WS. I am hoping that I can help you come back to the light, so that you can come back to the light that has, for so long, shielded you with that dense fog you may still be in. The first thing that we share is the love of a person that totally, completely, and unconditionally stand by our side. Through thick and thin, for better or worse, in our darkest hours, we have someone that has always believed in us, and still does. They have put up with our lies, our anger, our accusations, and maybe in some cases verbal and/or physical abusiveness. They have watched us trash us the things they believed in more than anything in the world...our marriage, our vows, our trust and our love. In spite of it all, they see in us their hopes, their dreams, and their futures. They can't, nor do they want to, see themselves without us for the rest of their lives. They accept our imperfections and our infidelity as we have strayed from that which we know is wrong. They have continued to believe in us and want to help us right the ship and stay the course. They are willing to forgive us, grant us our mistakes, and come home to rebuild that life and make it better. They know they are not perfect, as well. They know they have made mistakes. They need us to open up, talk to them and give them answers so that they can learn, heal, and help repair the damage. They will accept their responsibility in these things. Can you? We, most of us, alsoe have children that look at us, and see only the love of a Mom or a Dad. They don't see us as imperfect, scared, or angry. They see us as a shelter, a safe haven where they can laugh, cry, hurt, be silly or serious, and tell us their fears or fantasies. We are their safety net when they fall. They look to us for answers in life, no matter how big or small the answers are. Our life changed, no matter much we didn't want it to when we helped create that life. We owe our children the best chance to learn from us. We owe them our unconditional, total, and complete love, so that they can start on the journey with as few bumps and bruises as possible. They look to you for truth in their lives. To deny them that chance, is a travesty. You took an oath, in your heart and mind, to protect and defend and teach YOUR child, as soon as they were created. So, you see, you have people in your life that believe in you, love you, accept you, want you, need you, cherish you, and the list goes on and on. I know for a fact, that many of you, when with the OP, badmouth your spouse. You tell the OP how they do all the right things, fill you up, make you feel alive, do all the things your spouse does not, or used to do. You tell this person they are everything you ever wanted. They arouse you, they make you happy...interesting how you told your spouse that at one time too. And, the truth is, if you were to search your heart, you are not letting them do that now. They want to, they beg you to let them justify your A, by telling them "I just don't feel that for you anymore", "I don't know if I want to be married anymore", "I dont know what I want", and a myriad of other flimsy reasons and excuses to buy time to spend with the OP. You give justifications that are so superficial they can't hold water. We even search our minds to think of everything that our spouse ever did, no matter how insignificant, how long ago it was, in order to make us feel better about cheating. We can find any reason to blame our spouse for US deciding and making a conscious choice to cheat and find a reason to say it is ok. What we should be doing is finding every reason for our BS to forgive us. We should be finding every reason to stay together, to come home, to make it right, to be a family...loving and supportive, forgiving and trusting. And you know what? Those reasons are there...everyday...the smile, the laugh, the tears, the love....they are there each and everyday!! Just look!!!The second thing we share is the fact that we are all weak!! I know full well the pain, anger, frustration, fear, embarrassment, passion, fun, laughter, love, fear, and all the rest of the wide range of emotions of having an A. I know what is like to have that OP fill up your full and so fast you wonder how you ever made it without them. The sex is great, the passion is overwhelming, you can't wait to see them, touch them, hear them...all the while drifting further and further from your marriage...lost in the fog. NO matter how we justify it, that other a cheater, as well. They know we are married and they choose to cheat with us. And in many cases, probably have before, and have told the other person they are with, all the same, exact things they tell us. "You are my soulmate" "you are the only one for me" etc etc. We have heard em all and said em all. We have been told they can make us happy "for the rest of our lives". WE have been so blinded by it all, that we give up family and friends we have had for years, in order for this OP to feel safe with us and convince them how we feel. We take all the energies that we don't use at home, and give them to someone "new". We spend money, time, and energy to build something with someone exciting, instead of spending that with someone that knows us and truly loves us. You see, the truth is, that we, both members of the affair, are very good at one thing....telling each other exactly what we want to hear. We put together elaborate speeches, write poetry, find mushy cards, send the "perfect" gifts, say the right things...all for this other person. Both of us continue to hone our "cheating" skills to the point of perfection. What ever happened to doing that to your spouse, instead of leaving them at the side of the road with a flat tire? We have derailed their entire life and emotionally checked order to make us feel better about the affair. That simply isn't right. We took years to build something. We may have taken several years to weaken the foundation of it. But in one simple night of lust, and that is what it is, lust, we tried to destroy it. If we truly "loved" this person, if we truly believed what we were doing is right, true, and good, there would be no indecision on our part. There would be no hesitancy at all. The bottom line is that, you can trust the person you are cheating with less than you can trust yourself. It is a proven fact that only 25% of all affairs ever make it. Deep down in your heart, you still love your spouse, and you know it. You don't want to give up the excitement and passion you have found. The truth is that your marriage will never again go back to what it was. The blind faith in each other is is replaced with doubt and fear. The wonderful thing is that you now have a chance to "rediscover" your spouse, your marriage, and your family. It is not as hard as you may think, but will take some dedication on your part. But the beauty of the whole thing is you will be stronger and more in love than you ever thought you could be. You create new memories, new routines, a new life. You re-commit, reinvest your time and energies in that which truly loves you. The truth is most affairs end when the OP either gets what they thought they needed from you, and even more of them end when the OP finds another WS. Oddly enough, you weren't enough for them either. In the end you are left with no loving spouse, no children, no family, no friends.....and your OP that was so steadfastly dedicated to you is off romping with "the love of their life". I know from whence I speak, my friends. I know of the pain, the sorrow, the hurt, the look in my childrens eyes when I left the house. I hear the sounds of my W crying, begging, pleading, and hurting. I now see what a fool I was. I now spend everyday, more happy than I ever thought I could be. If the world were to end tomorrow, she would know I loved her as no other. No, she won't ever forget about the A, and along the way, there will be things that will trigger her mind, but, she has forgiven. You need to talk to your spouse to help them. YOU are the only one that can help them. They need you, much more now than ever before. You have to swallow that pride of yours, for them to heal. You have to open your life up to them, and hide nothing. You have to make it about them. The affair was making it about you, so now you owe it to them, no matter how embarrassed you are, no matter how much you don't wnat to talk about it, to make it about them. Their piece of mind, their feelings are all that matter. They know, from being here, what they need to do in order to help meet your needs. It is now up to you, to learn what you need to do in order to meet theirs. And make no mistake about it, it will be hard work, but it is oh so worth it!! This person you married, is willing to work with you in order to show you the love you deserve!! Are you willing to work to show them how much you truly love them?? By being here, at Marriage Builders, they have shown that they are willing to adopt the principles that it takes to put their marriage back together. They have pledged their love, and even their support, to your recovery, as well as theirs. They have accepted the crumbs you have offered them, while knowing full well you were at the buffet with the other person in your life. You have one of the strongest, most committed, most wonderful, loving, and caring people in the world on your side. Don't expect them not be angry from time to time. Don't expect them to be perfect, let you off the hook, and not talk about it with you. They need and want to understand you and all the things surrounding what happened. It is part of the healing process. What you can expect is love, honesty, and the rebuilding of your marriage. They know what it takes to make things work now. They also know that they, as well as you, have to be stronger than ever before in their life, if this is going to work. That is why they are still here...they understand. They even know, that you may backslide in the beginning, but are willing to deal with that, in order to preserve and protect that which they believe in ......YOU. I implore you, WS, burn off the fog. See the sand that is your foundation for the affair. There is no solid basis for this is all smoke and mirrors that reflects this "love" you have found. Run, do not walk, back home and give your marriage all the energy, gifts, poems, cards, and love that you have given to the affair. The results are remarkable. But you have to be willing to be honest with yourself, first of all. You have to admit there is a problem, and you have to be willing to fix it, with your spouse, a counselor, whatever or whoever it takes to fix it. You have to be willing to want to be there in mind, body, and spirit. You will find a love more wonderful than anything you knew before. I hope this helps, in some way, to show you what life can be after an affair. I know that I am blessed with the most wonderful person. I was given the opportunity to feel what life was like without her, and it was not what I wanted. I found the answers I sought...I found them both here, and in her arms. I can only hope, that in some small way, you find the same thing, and that I helped the fog to lift. If you ever wish to talk to someone who understands what we WS go through, then feel free to write There is a path back home. You need only choose it! Keep the faith!*Out of our greatest fears, come our bravest deeds!*Trueheart
Wow, Thanks LoveNcare.

Trueheart's letter gives me hope that perhaps one day my wife will come out of the fog and we can start on the road to recovery.

I would love to show her the letter in hopes of it changing her or making something dawn on her. However, I will not because of her mindset right now. I have already tried "educating" her and probably shouldn't have. If someday she does come back to work on the marriage (her fog lifts), I will show it too her then to give her support.

In the meantime I continue to work on myself. I know Plan A is a narrow path (it is also quite a long one!) I have to becareful that I don't let my wife's actions/words knock me off the path.

When I saw her briefly on Tuesday, she asked me why I told her sister's husband that OM was laughing when I saw them together at the beach all those months ago. She said he wasn't laughing, and if anything they were both in shock. I told her I just wanted to truth to be known and I saw what I saw or thought I saw. She said "thought you saw" or "saw" are two different things. I told her that is what I saw, and that is the truth. She accused me of trying to get her family to hate OM. I said I don't want to get involved, I told him months ago, and that I'm trying to work on changing myself now.

She also said that her sister and her husband "saw" her Saturday night at a dance club (I assume with OM but my wife purposely didn't say - she was hesistant to say anthing). Interestingly enough, I was supposed to meet my sister-in-law and her husband at the club that that night but they never called me back. Later they told me their phone didn't work and I didn't miss anything. (Perhaps the real reason is that because my wife showed up with OM, they wanted to protect me from seeing her/them.) My wife asked me not to talk to them about it. hmmm...

I am curious but I think I should just focus on myself and not get distracted or thrown from the path by WW's actions/words. As Steve Harley said to me, my wife and I are not in recovery.

On another note, our wedding anniversary is on Aug. 8th. Steve H. recommends I don't go overboard but also not to skip it either. I'm planning on giving her a card and a little something. I will ask her to dinner and if/when she turns me down I will scale it back to lunch. I am not going to expect anything.

My wife did made a point of telling me the other day that "coincidentally" her date of moving to her new apartment is the 8th. I have a feeling my wife will try to avoid me completely that day. Who ever heard of a moving day on a Thursday? Usually it is the end of the month or first or the 15th.

In many ways, right now, my wife thinks/feels she is very sure about her new life and the direction it is going. She does feel guilty sometimes that I'm hurt/hurting and just wants to let me down easy in some ways. She hopes that I will get over her/stop loving her already so things will be easier for her (as well as she hopes her family will accept OM with open arms.) I don't see either of those things happening any time soon.
Hello aanast -- Steve Harley is giving you sound advice and if you go back and read through your posts from the beginning you will see how much better you are doing.

Plan A is a narrow path and it is damn hard. I have no idea whether my WH's A has completely ended, but I can tell you that things are getting better. He is no longer angry and seems truly confused. Time is what you need. Time to do a good plan A where you work on making yourself happy and time to give your WW to work through her confusion.

I am almost out of steam but am seeing some improvement in terms of my WH's ability to talk and for us to spend more time together. He has been out of the house since January and plan A has been absolutely the hardest thing I have ever done. It is only within the last 4 and half months that it has been consistent with no LBs and focus on me.

I know that within a few weeks there will either be dramatic improvement or I will go to plan B. I know I will be ready because I have put my heart and soul into this and have found a new level of patience and completely set aside my pride to try and keep this relationship alive.

Keep focused on planA and look for small changes. I kept thinking that I would see bigger changes sooner despite what I read on this forum/this website. Have faith in those that have walked this path before you and Steve Harley. The whole thing (Affairs) are so irrational that you have to chuck out the window all of the things that you think make sense and have faith that patience and love and demonstrating those changes will eventually slice through the fog into your WW's heart.

My thoughts are with you.

Thanks as always for your reply. You're right about Plan A. As much as I've read it here, I so much want it to be about changing my wife or thinking it will automatically end her A and get her back. I get impatient and wish and wish and wish. I have to focus on Plan A being about me. Somehow that makes me feel like I can continue longer (despite the rollercoaster of emotions my WW sends my way.) I will not try but *do* my best for as long as I can in Plan A.

I sincerely wish you the best with you and your husband. You mentioned you may only continue this for a few more weeks?
Why a few weeks?
Do you feel you are near the end of your patience/love/ability to not LB?
What then, Plan B?
Have you counselled with the Harley's?
aanast -- To answer your questions. Yes, I have been counseling with Jennifer Harley Chalmers and she thinks it is almost time to go to plan B for the following reasons: a) my love bank is draining as he probably continues the EA (at least it's not PA I guess although it's not particularly comforting), b) he has stopped individual counseling for his other issues; mainly depression, c) he will not agree to MC, and d) he is in a "having his cake and eating it" mode whereby he gets a great deal of emotional support from me but cannot make a decision.

My rollercoaster (as you can see by my profile below) has been going on a LONG time before I really knew what was specifically wrong (the A) and my love bank was draining pre knowledge of the A.

I still don't know if I'm ready for plan B, but I'm getting really worn out and my WH just seems too comfortable sitting in limbo.
WOW!! Just lurking and haven't read this whole thread, but Truehearts letter was amazing. It gives me hope for all of us. I wish all out WS's would read it.

Well, from what I've read, it *seems* like your reasons a) and d) are two very important reasons to go to Plan B.

As for reason a) (probably the most important reason to go to Plan B), once your love is all gone and you go into the withdraw stage and/or LB, your M will have little of a chance of success (according the MB principles.)

As for reason d), if your WH is still getting some needs met by you (even though you are separated), Plan B will stop that. A WS may try to get all needs met by OP. But as SAA says "most lovers fail when put to the test."

Going to Plan B (for me at least), seems like the hardest thing to do. It seems very scary because sometimes an O.R. does work out and, as it says on this website, "With Plan A/B, there is no guarantee. Once separated, couples often never do reconcile."

I still don't know if I'm ready for plan B, but I'm getting really worn out and my WH just seems too comfortable sitting in limbo.

Can you take a mini break from the whole thing and do something for yourself? Go on a trip for the weekend or something away from WH? Just a thought.

As for Plan B, one thing I've noticed from this forum is that a BS often does many drafts of the Plan B letter before actually giving it to the WS. If/when you're more sure about Plan B and you do a letter, you may want to do a bunch of drafts many days in advance to read, reread, ponder, and fine-tune as your prepare for Plan B.

My thoughts are with you, whatever happens.
HI Aanast2 and AJR,
I am sorry I did not get right back and write to you. I just have been busying myself while my WH is confused and denying an A which I have cell phone proof, did a reverse on the phone numbers and got a name and address! He is telling me really weird things and Thank God he moved out in May as I do not know if I could handle this any better with him here. Trueheart told me to send it to him as I have done a no contact letter. He was here on Sun a week after! Does not understand no contact! He did not read all of it yet. He immediatly started demanding - like wanting to come home and a contract - his terms if he does! H has alot of material things here! Maybe worried or going to try to get them out while he is here? Oh boy got my goat as he is not coming home without counseling - lots of it and a better attitude. He is not showing any remorse or love and is cold when he speaks, but asks for a kiss when he left. I just cry. This is so very hard on me as I do love him with all my heart. I know what he is going through and just do not know how to help him and at the same time I am hurt, angry.
I am also in hopes of the WS letter knocking some sense into him as an A is not the answer when your whole life is at stake! I am a good wife work, eat and sleep and bought him all he ever wanted in tools and other things. I did have withdrawl from him as he changed a year ago with no apparent reason that I could find. I did think though it was pain as he has a few problems. Boy what a shock when you don't see it coming! I forgot to duck! I did not know of this site and boy I could have used it and maybe this would not have gotten out of control! Well just hang in there and do send that letter aanast2, send it for her Birthday and add it was from the bottom of your heart with all the love you have for her! I cried like a baby when I read it as they just do not know what they are doing to us or themselves. Where does trading partners get them? I have never looked at another man as I am another trueheart! Good luck as I wanted to share that one! Let me know if it works Please!
aanst -- Thanks for your thoughts. I am still as confused as my WH appears to be about what I should do. I thankfully have an appointment with a therapist tomorrow that knows the situation pretty well. I really need some encouragement to keep going. It seems worse when the WW/WH give you any shred of hope. Here's my latest. update

Any news on your situation?
dear aanast,
Keep on doing what you are doing, I know things will continue to get harder but it shows that as long as you are true to yourself and know you are doing all you can and what is right then it wont seem so hopeless and wont hurt as much. I just came back from jordan... I will be in chicago on the 3rd... maybe who knows- we can get in touch... please keep this to yourself. My hopes and prayers are with you and you know Im here if you need me.
your sister,

Thanks for your reply. I have to agree with you. If my WW lived with me still, I don't know if I could keep doing this as long as I have. While I didn't want her to leave and I want her back, it is tough to resist LBing sometimes. Good luck with your situation. I found it best to just be a good listener when one's spouse is ranting and raving and angry. I don't make any statements to agree or disagree. I just listen and summarize back what has been said to me and as for clarification/if I'm understanding correctly.

Unsureheart, I know what you mean about encouragement. When I'm feeling those low points and doubts, I really need it too. You and I both don't want to throw away/ruin all the hard work/time/patience we've been doing by quitting early or LBing. I wish I could magically send you more encouragement to hang in there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

One thing that helps me keep going is understanding myself. I think of myself as having my emotional side (similar to Taker) and rational/intellectual side (similar to Giver). My brain tells me, matter of factly, that I should keep up what I've been doing and not give up or LB because the best chance for my marriage is Plan A.

Easier said then done when my emotions kick in. When that happens it is hard to want to keep going because of pain and sadness. I start doubting if her A will ever end, if she'll ever choose me, if I'm better off without her, etc. It is hard to focus on the intellectual side of me when I'm feeling emotional.

However, what helps is noticing patterns. When I'm busy through the day, I don't think too much about my WW and situation, hence I don't get emotional, I don't feel miserable, and I feel like I can keep this up for a while.

When I first wake up or go to bed I think about how my marriage might not survive, about missing my wife, and whether or not she is going to file for divorce soon, etc. I also get sad and frustrated after I've seen or talked to my WW. I try to talk about it with someone soon afterwards. Getting it off my chest seems to help. Also, since I don't see her often I also seem to not feel that way as often.

So basically knowing when the "hard" times occur for me helps. I tell myself not to make any life-altering decisions during that time. I let it pass and overall I just try to focus and spend more time on being with friends, keeping myself busy, doing things to keep me sane through all this! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I know it might sound like I'm trying to avoid/escape the pain but to a certain extent I think that is necessary in order to keep in Plan A for as long as possible. Plus I'm not totally ignoring my problems nor drinking or getting someone new or anything. I'm trying to be strong and consistent through all this. I'm not very religious but my father-in-law told me the story of Job which was inspiring.

One who cares- thanks for your support as always. I would love to see you. Please email me.
Here's an update to my situation-

Last Saturday, July 27th, I spent the day helping my father-in-law and uncle setup for for a huge annual fundraising pinic they organize. They needed the help and I was more than happy to help them. I also thought of it as a way of becoming a more thoughtful person and changing for the better (part of my Plan A). Later that day my WW showed up at the picnic saw me, said it was too hot, mentioned that my helping out was a first, and left.

I've also been helping my in-laws with their computer at work. Playing volleyball with them. They are happy to see me and I them.

A day later or so after the picnic my WW got angry with me saying that I never wanted to help her family before and I should stay away from them and her family's friends so they can all get used to the idea of us not being together. I just listened.

Friday, Aug 2., she came over to the house again (perhaps under the pretense?) to get her mail. We chatted for awhile about the good news in the family. Her sister is pregnant. I'm so happy for them, it is nice to finally hear some good news.

My WW said I'm probably kicking myself now knowing that in recent months before she left me I wanted kids, when for years and years she did (and I wanted to wait). I told her she is right I *am* kicking myself and told her my regrets and apologized (again) for my part in this situation, not meeting her needs of attention, taking her for granted.

She got a bit angry with me because everyone thinks of her as the bad guy; everyone is taking my side. She said I want everyone to take my side and am manipulating them to take my side because I told them about OM. I told her I was just telling the truth. I also told her that the few family members I've talked to about this know my part in all this. I have told them my regrets and how I neglected her. She thanked me for that. (I guess she thinks if people think she has a reason for leaving/divorcing me, then it is ok in her mind.)

I suggested lunch to her and she said ok (a first in a long time). We ordered in - a pizza with her favorite toppings of course. She told me that she would be coming over next week to get some things from the house (decorative stuff mostly that she said I wouldn't care about.) I told her that I don't agree with her moving out but I'll help her with the stuff. She said she doesn't want me helping her move into her own apartment. I said I'd help her at least pack her car.

She thanked me for "doing her the favor with the house." She said by making mortgage payments (since she is not contributing financially anymore) I'm helping her with her investment. She said she has been buying/spending/charging a lot for new new place etc. She is going on vacation for a week this month. She is thinking about leasing a new car in January. (She is going money crazy it seems.) She said she is counting on getting her equity out of the house next year to pay off her debt and help her start her new dream business. She said she does not know how a divorce factors into the house situation but doesn't want to kick me out of the house since I want to be there.

She again mentioned that she will be talking to lawyers soon about divorcing me. While she has been saying this all summer, now that she isn't so busy looking for an apartment, perhaps she will. Plus, she will be returning to her work at the end of August and will have her other coworkers' support/encouragement (the one who is unhappily married and friends with OM, plus another one who is divorced) to get a divorce.

After lunch, she proceeded to lie on our bed, and I proceeded to massage her. (Lately when she comes over that is our "routine".) This time she did not say anything or resist the massage. She did say something like "I should not be laying on my own bed."

We talked more. I mostly listened to her. She seemed to be someone with a lot of problems. She was especially distraught over how her mother swears at her, insults her, verbally abuses her over the OM. Her mom says that my WW is causing marital problems between her parents now and if they get divorced it is her fault. She wishes her mom would be like her dad. He says he loves her but is sad and thinks she better be sure before trading in one set of problems for another.

My WW added that no one else should be hurt by this. She said there is only one victim in all of this and that is me.

She also added that she doesn't think what she is doing is wrong at all.

She asked me what I'm going to say if I bring a date over and she sees pictures of us. (I thought to myself, what a ridiculous question.) I told her that we are married and I not dating someone nor do I plan to.

She asked me if I would still be her friend after she divorces me. She said she wouldn't be able to be mine if I did this to her. I told her I love her now and am married to her now and that I don't know what will happen in the future. She didn't seem to like that answer.

I reminded her of my desire for us, our marriage. She said she knows this already. (I hope I didn't get too educational.) I wanted her to know that there was still hope for our marriage and that there are couples out there in our situation that still work things out.

I mentioned counseling again. I said if she spoke to Steve Harley it would not mean she is making a commitment to our marriage but just so we can both learn from this, from our mistakes, whatever happens. She said she doesn't need counseling. She knows what happened between us.

She said we started living two separate lives. I lost the emotional connection with her. She added that I am *not capable* of meeting her emotional needs. So she went elsewhere for them. And she said she is not capable of commitment. So, she said we are not meant to be.

I didn't say anything in response to that. I wished I said (or she believed) that people can change. I believe that I am capable and so is she because we once were *and* now we know better (or at least I do.)

She asked me what is she is right and very happy in the future, etc. I responded with what if you are wrong? She replied with "well I'll just win you back."

She left soon after that. I told her I love her.

I saw her again briefly that evening at her sister's place. She was distant. I notice that around people she is most distant from me but when we are alone she is not. I also notice that she contacts me (after I haven't seen or talked to her for a few days) and when she does she is less angry/distant with me than whenever I see her at a family function or contact her.

Only time will tell what happens from here. I will continue my plan A. I know I can outlast OM if that is what it comes down too. However, it is likely she will divorce me first (before A dies.)

Thanks for listening. As always I appreciate any comments.
aanast -- Your last post about how she tends to withdraw more when she is around her family or others that she thinks are unapproving of A I think is pretty common. The wayward spouse is so consumed with guilt when they are with those (most people on the planet) that don't approve of an A that they become more negative and withdrawn.

I was thinking of you with your anniversary coming up -- are you still going to get her a card and invite her to dinner? Maybe just inviting her to lunch is a better idea for two reasons 1) you will look like you care but it won't look like too much and 2) you won't be setting yourself up for disappointment. Have you talked to Steve H. about this?

Also -- what does aanast stand for? I don't expect you to reveal your name as this is an anonmymous board for the most part -- I'm just curious because my last name starts with two aa, which is fairly unusual.

The wayward spouse is so consumed with guilt when they are with those (most people on the planet) that don't approve of an A that they become more negative and withdrawn.
That makes sense. She did say that anyone who doesn't know me agrees with what she is doing. She says that those who do know me think of me as Mr. Nice guy but don't really know what it is like to live with me. She said the other day that she can't believe how long she stayed with me.

Her family has told me that she doesn't talk about OM but does talk about her apartment etc. Her brother is helping her move out on Saturday.

I was thinking of you with your anniversary coming up -- are you still going to get her a card and invite her to dinner? Maybe just inviting her to lunch is a better idea for two reasons 1) you will look like you care but it won't look like too much and 2) you won't be setting yourself up for disappointment. Have you talked to Steve H. about this?
I've got the card and I'm going to give her a box of chocolate. Yes I talked to SH about this. He said start with dinner but be prepared for rejection and scale it back to lunch. At this point in the day (today is our 4th year anniversary), she is working so I guess lunch is out of the question. I'm hoping I get to see her today. I'm going to swing by her parents this afternoon (when she should be back from work) and I'll ask her out to dinner (I'm expecting her to say no) and then scale it back to grabbing a bite really quick/ordering in something. We'll see what happens.

I dreamt last night that we had a great day together and I literally picked her up off her feet and brought her home. It was nice and then I woke up.

Also -- what does aanast stand for? I don't expect you to reveal your name as this is an anonmymous board for the most part -- I'm just curious because my last name starts with two aa, which is fairly unusual.
It is the first letter of my first name and then the first 5 letters of my last name (which is much longer.) It was an old email address I had in college which just stuck. So actually my last name does not start with two aa like yours.

How are things with you going? I tried that link you posted above but could not get it to work.
aanast -- Good luck tonight. Did Steve say it was a bad idea to call her in advance about dinner? Just curious about why it might be a better idea to just show up and ask. I'm always wrestling with when do I invite my WH to join me in various things. He seems to think it's ok to ask me to do things last minute/make no plans. Very frustrating (but at least he's asking).
Unsureheart -

Steve and I did not talk about the particulars of how to ask (e.g. over the phone or in person.)

I personally decided to just show up because I believe that over the phone would have been a no on all accounts.

Here's what did happen:

Before I saw her on our anniversary I happened to find a card from OM to her.

The card said something like "I Believe." "I believe in your love for me and hope you believe in my love for you. I love you, mi amor. -tu gordo"
(which is an affectionate way of saying in spanish "your fat one". OM is fat, I'm not. This may explain why lately when my wife hugs me she says I'm so skinny. While I have lost some weight, I'm not that much slimmer than I have been while we were together.)

Anyway, the snooping just hurts me (I'm not going to tell her I found it as she will be very angry with me not giving her privacy) but I guess the card shows me that she is deep in an affair right now (no end in sight?) and they feel love for each other (which I knew already but seeing it in writing/reality hurts nonetheless.)

I showed up at her parents in the late afternoon when I knew she'd be back from work and be alone. I brought her mail (i.e. the usual "official" reason we communicate) and had a box of chocolates snuck in between the mail.

Initially she was a bit upset. She said "I knew it. I knew you'd show up because of what today is."

I told her that yes we both know what today is - our anniversary of four years of marriage.

She saw the chocolate too and said she wouldn't eat it and would just give it to her mom. Then she said ok maybe she'd eat some of it.

We chatted briefly while she looked through her mail and victoria secret catalogs, etc. (again this is typical of when we first see each other - kinda breaking the ice.)

I asked her if she'd like to go out to dinner (expecting the no.) She said no because I would be celebrating or something. I immediately scaled it back to lunch. I said well I'm hungry and I'm going to grab a bite to eat. I'm going to order... do you want anything. When I put it that way she said ok and we shared a meal together a little while later.

Shortly afterward I left and gave her a card which basically reiterated that I can't change the past and my failures in the past but that I'm willing, able, and actively changing and becoming a better person now. I added that we can have a great marriage and reconnection, that people can change if they want to, and that I care, miss, and love her.

I also had a good cry on the drive back home.

I spoke with her parents later that night. While they knew she was getting her own apartment, they did not know she was moving out of their house the next day. They are having some marital problems because of what is going on with my wife and I. My Mother-in law feels that they should be tough with their daughter, maybe even disown her completely. My Father-in law disagrees. He loves his daughter (she is daddy's little girl) and while he disagrees with what she is doing and has told her so, he says he will have to accept OM and any possible children etc if my wife divorces me. He would like to do more to help me and my marriage with his daughter but he does not know what else to say or do. (We all agreed that he has the biggest influence over her.)

Other than what he has already said to my WW, I'm not sure what he could say or do. Any suggestions?

The following day my WW came over to get some of her stuff (it was moving day for her.) She was not very organized. I helped her load her car with stuff and remained pleasant throughout, though I felt very sad during the course of her taking things. It was not because of losing the material items, but just the physical act of her leaving. Just reality hitting me again.

She took dishes and china cabinet things and made a big mess of items in the center of our living room floor. In the nicest way possible I tried to encourage her to only take what she could fit in her car and leave the rest for another time.

She decided against my advice and I still (3 days later and counting) have a pile of dishes, vases, and other items scattered around my living room floor.

Oh well, the mess doesn't really bother me. It was just interesting (I guess that is the word) to see my wife running around like a chicked without its head on.

So Saturday the furntiure store delivered her thousands of dollars worth of new stuff (which she bought on credit) to her apartment. She has been sleeping there since Friday. The apartment is also not in a very good area of the city. I'm worried about her safety there. I told her that but she brushed it off saying her parking spot is only a few feet away from the back door.

Sunday I saw her again at a family celebration of her sister's pregnancy. We barely spoke as she avoided me but when we did it was casual. At the end of the night I hugged her goodbye. She didn't want to (lately she has been very resistant to me hugging her goodbye. I guess I should stop doing that because perhaps I look pathetic and needy??) and told me that I'm just hurting myself. I asked why. She said I know why.

I'm sure she'll be back one of these days for the pile of stuff and more.

She'll be changing her mailing address soon. She won't have an "official" reason to contact me, if I don't have her mail.

I'm hesistant to try to contact/pursue her because my experience with her is when I contact her she gets upset and thinks of me as pathetic (e.g. I should accept that "we are over.")

However, when she contacts/sees me, she is usually in a better mood and more likely to let me meet her needs.

I wonder what the future holds.

Perhaps now that she has her own apartment, she will divorce me soon? Or perhaps now that she has her own apartment, reality will burst her fantasy bubble, the A will die, and she want to work on the M?

Either way I'll be ok.
aanast -- obviously I hope that being in her own apartment will be a dose of reality and the A will die. The thing that I think is good about this is that she will not be at her parents and feeling as if she is "being controlled". Now I know that's a lot of fog baloney, but it appears that is how she feels.

I would box up the stuff she left in the middle of your living room floor. Leaving it there will just make you sad. It was very sad helping my WH move out six months ago.

Yes I do think based on the card you saw that the A is going full on -- but it's really hard to say that definitively because it's OM's interpetation of where things are not your WW.

She does seem less angry with you and more able to spend "normal" time with you and YOU sound better -- plan A is working for you.

Keep us posted.
unsureheart, as always, thanks for your reply.

obviously I hope that being in her own apartment will be a dose of reality and the A will die.

Thanks, obviously I'm hoping the same.

The thing that I think is good about this is that she will not be at her parents and feeling as if she is "being controlled". Now I know that's a lot of fog baloney, but it appears that is how she feels.

I hope so, as are her parents. Everyone seems to be hoping that she'll get a taste of independence, realize things, miss me, and come back.

She does still visit her parents everyday, goes over for dinner etc.

It's obvious to me she moved out from our home because of OM and she moved out from her parents' because of OM. As she has told me many times "she wants to be able to see and be with whomever she wants and can only do that in her own place." Now that there is no more "control" over who she sees/what she does, maybe the secret/fantasy relationship will end.

(on a side note, I'm concerned that because OM works two jobs and if I'm to believe my WW that she "rarely sees him", the A will be prolonged)

I would box up the stuff she left in the middle of your living room floor. Leaving it there will just make you sad.

Good idea but she came over yesterday and took the stuff. I helped her load the car. She said she will come again to get more clothes and other stuff here and there.

While she was over we chatted about things, laughed together, and ate lunch. I tried to smile and be positive.

She told me about her neighbors in the apartment above her playing loud music and taking her parking space. I listened and gave her advice when she asked.

Overall, our interaction was pleasant. We had no physical contact. When I snuck in the "I love you" as she was leaving, she responded with "don't tell me that" and drove away.

Yes I do think based on the card you saw that the A is going full on -- but it's really hard to say that definitively because it's OM's interpetation of where things are not your WW.

I'm guessing that the A is definately full on because I've also seen my WW's cellphone bill (which is in the hundreds of dollars) and is pretty much all calls to OM's number multiple times a day.

She does seem less angry with you and more able to spend "normal" time with you and YOU sound better -- plan A is working for you.

She is definately less angry with me (less withdrawal's from my love bank.) This jives with her wanting to just be friends with me. Perhaps she is doing this so if/when she divorces me things will go smoothly for her?

I agree I'm feeling much better than months ago. What helps a lot is filling my time/days with friends and hobbies and this site. Plan A is working for me. Being separated has its advantages in that I don't know if I could continue Plan A without LBing if she was living here and still continuing A.

However, I also can't help but wish that my waiting will be worth it (i.e. my WW ends A and comes back to work on M.)
aanast -- I know how you feel about it being somewhat ok you're separated because it keeps you from love-busting. Some days I am really glad I did not see him every day; especially while the A was ongoing. It was so awful before d-day I don't know how I would have had the patience to not lovebust.

Since the A has ended (although he still misses OW), I have wished more and more he was home so that we could try and regret the separation.

Your WW will get that dose of reality; especially if she's never really been alone in life. It can be a very hard adjustment and isn't the non-stop fun she imagines it to be.

Have a good weekend aanast. I'll look for you next week.
Part1 -
Hello. I am a forum-neophyte, new at MB and its my first time to post. I have read the thread on this and its just painful for me to see so many people getting hurt w/ this whole A (yes, my acnonyming remains a work in progress) business.

to aanast2. wow. what amazing energy and patience you have. u started posting april, its already august and despite the fact that there is no clear solution in sight - you are still persevering to make things work out.

to the others who came before me and had advised you to go on and not give up and remain faithful to your Plan A until kingdom come - please forgive me if I offer a dissenting opinion here.

i think as per my experience, i could give evryone following this saga a fresh perspective on what is going on.

Mrs. WS here is experiencing a well-nurtured OM addiction. Nobody is between them, not even the people who love them and care for them and so those who hope of seeing this end are in for a longgggggggggg wait - until reality bites these
two, if reality comes at all. do not be deceived by the mortality statistics of affairs - some of them do wreck the curve and become full-blown relationships. the truth hurts but knowing it will cushion you from the pain of unrealized hopes and expectations.
Part 2
This is the way I read blinded WS' mind:

She said youre weak and pathetic. You are. And worse--- so unlike her deart OM (though she was "thoughtful" enuf not to verbalize her comparison). Her OM has "integrity" and has "balls of steel" - even if he just mops floors. Proof? He did not jump on to her like a crazed dog, did not do any crying, any begging, any whinning, (probably did not even bribe her with a massage) and just laid his cards on the table - get out of your marriage before I come in - or Im gone forever. He did not even care whether he would ever win her family's approval.

What can be more blinding romantically than a you and me against the world drama? Coupled to this is her rebellion-streak - the more people tell her that she's making a big mistake, the more she is determined to prove otherwise.
Part 3
In creating life strategies, when youre doing something consistently and its pushing u further away from the resuts you want (your beloved Plan A) - then it means - you are using the wrong strategy - and its time to do a complete 180 - and see if a drastic turnaround will bring u closer to your goal.

If you TRULY LOVE HER, set her free. By doing this and letting her make her own mistake (who knows it could be true love afterall)- the 2 bestest things could happen : the one you claim you love finds lasting love and happiness or two, she realizes her huge mistake and takes steps rectifying it. Either way, she cannot play victim anymore and accuse people of making decisions for her. True, she would have paid a great price for her folly but she would be learning a very important life-changing lesson at the end

If you TRULY LOVE HER, let her family go as well. Assure them of your love and support but let them know that you will start distancing yourself away from them so WS can have some semblance of a family life. Understand that her lack of family network (because theyre on your side) is pushing her closer to her OM. Rest assured that in their heart of hearts, her family will always be loyal to you.
Part 4
Now you. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO STOP HURTING. Cant you see that you are trapped in a very toxic cyce? She is manipulating you by giving you bits and pieces of crumbs and telling you that it is not "right" to give you false hopes. She is feeding you enough so you wont die from famine. Why is she doing this? She is establishing a good safety net around her - just in case - she discovers all her trouble wasnt worth it afterall.

Now my suggested strategy. Talk to her family and explain why you have to let them go as well. Tell them that you have found a good support group over the net (which is true!) and that you will run to them for comfort for the meantime so WS can feel that she has her family again. Give it time. She will discover later on that she is not getting their full support not because of loyalty to you but because of her actions do not warrant approval. At the time time, the mere mention of internet should send some chill over their spine. As you know, internet breeds romance and more A's if I may add. Ask them for divorce lawyer references even.

The trick here is that you will give her family ideas/perception about the WS finally losing you. They will in turn tell her that some Internet peope are "cudding" you and that you seeking an appointment already with a divorce lawyer.
Part 5
The table has been against you for a while and she is slippping away from you on a day to day basis - you should turn this table on your favor now and start making her feel that youre the one she's losing, not the other way around.

Talk to her. Tell her that you are tired and finally giving up. Ask for her forgiveness - for your past shortcomings and mistakes. Tell her that you did not mean to be manipulative/controlling nor to cause such a huge wedge between her and her family. Apogize for not being able to give the kind of love and happiness that this OM seems to be giving her.

Ask for her forgiveness too that you cannot keep up anymore with this fight over her love. Tell her to relax already because the divorce will be forthcoming. tell her that you cannot promise that you will put yourself on hold for her BECAUSE YOUR EMOTIONAL NEEDS MATTER TO.

Lastly, give your blessings to her in her pursuit of "love and happiness". And then cap it - with a similar sentence that you seek her blessings to in your pursuit of emotional recovery, love (emphasize this!) and happiness.

The strategy here is make her feel the essence of FINALITY. she is keeping a yo-yo relationship with you and OM because she is not sure that she is doing the right thing.

the drama queen in her will see you in a totally different light. she will see that you love her enough to let her go but MAN ENOUGH to say - youve hurt me enough, now go. and dont come back

now what could be a more delicious catch than a man who has been in hot doormat pursuit of you and now has emerged into a more assertive, calmer, wiser, stronger man? ready to move on and worse, pursued by other women (we'll make her think this) and not interested in you anymore??

women!!!! our brains are really wired for torture!! so give her that.

Do not initiate contacts w/ her. Keep calls, casual meeting w/ her short but friendly. Put imaginary twinkle in your eyes. Mention about taking a trip, preferably somewhere that the 2 of you planned but never had the chance to take. Talk about the possibility of some friends joining u in that trip.

this will seem like a complete departure from your earlier plan. but at this point - i dont think u have anything to lose anymore.

i hope i am able to give you a fresh option. btw, this strategy will backfire soon as you show any sign of weakness.

i am praying for you and WS. i hope all works out for the best. be brave. the hurt will be there and the pain will linger for a while - but what doesnt physically kill you, will strengthen you.

God Bless!
huge blooper. i shoud have been using WW instead of WS. my apologies. its bad enuf that im poor at spelling but to be poor at acronyming!!
What spartanhearted means is, in other words, go into plan B; actually do the things she suggests that you hint at, with the exception of hinting at or filing for divorce right now. Seahorse is doing a model plan B now. If you read her thread in 'Just found out', she went into plan B right on the dot after 6 months, in spite of having better hope from her guy than you do now.

ps: Actually she did continue her plan A after he moved out upto 6 months - that gives you a little less than 2 more months. What would your counselor say? But then Plan A is more attractive on a woman and less attractive on a man.
I doubt that she is deliberately keeping you hanging by giving you bits of hope. I think she truely regrets hurting you.

<small>[ August 17, 2002, 04:19 AM: Message edited by: relate ]</small>
Hi Spartanhearted,
Boy for being new you are right on the money! I loved the thread. My WH has been doing a good game on me too. I have given him two plan B letters now and he just does not get it. Although this 2nd one was a week! Wow! He then comes in here and yells and screams or calls on the phone and leaves nasty remarks when I am not here. He has hid and will not admit to this A since a year ago as I suspect, but am not sure. I was sure around May and would not say it until I finally had a PI get into his cell phone - got the 24 same numbers and did a reverse. Now he is mad at me and called me all kinds of names for that snoop and I also changed the door locks, drew out the balance in the bank. He abandoned me and I am on workers comp and needed to pay bills. He never has given me a dime. I do not have a physical address either! I did file for a divorce, but something kept telling me no. Sure it was God. Backed off, but did file for support. These nit picking things verbally he do says, only hurts me and I can not keep my mouth shut. Lots lastnight. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Yes I am sorry for it as I kept telling him to leave and he would not, so then I told him as long as he feels as he does about me to go home and live with his girlfriend and I was going out to get my needs met! Yikes did I say that really? Well I never meant it, but must be he believed it as he left. I called his cell after he left here lastnight and told him goodbye and not to do this to me anymore as I get my head on he messes me up. He makes this to be all me! I only work, eat and sleep as I have done in the past 11 years. This same thing has been going on now since May. I can not be loving when he is so mean. I have surgery pending on my wrist and forearm the 26th and he is not kind about that either. This WH has always been right and controlls every word that comes out of my mouth or changes it or tells me I am wrong and should handle it another way pretaining to family issues or anything I do. He is gruff all the time - no wonder I raise my voice, just sick of being hurt, lied to when I know different and being nobody. got any suggestions? I love my H with all my heart even after all his nasty's.
pls. read this "success" story.we all can learn from this.

Dear aanast,
Hi,I hope you are still making it. You know I have been working on getting up the guts to do this for a while. Well right now I am in Florida and from here we are driving to boston. Um so I dont know your email address! So you can write me even a blank email if you want just so I get your address at **edit**.Please I would love to hear from you. Its such a shame that I haven't been able to for so long. I am so nervous about starting college-I have never even seen the place before and I don't know anyone. Please stay strong, we all have our crosses to bare and some are heavier than others. You know you are doing what you can so stay true to yourself.
with love,
one who cares
Part 1
Thank you LoveNCare. For a whlie I was worried that my post would come hurtful but not helpful - this is the last thing I want to happen.

Continue posting here as I can see that there are so many peope interested in seeing an acceptable ending for aanst2 and the WW. Im sure that there would be more quaified people than me putting in their opinions that could prove useful to you and applicable to your situation.

My 2 cents for you meanwhile include the following: Calm yourself - BEFORE ANYTHING ELSE. There is no sense dwelling on your hurts and on the WH and on the day to day pain he seems bent on inflicting you. Stop giving your power away by getting agitated and very angry.

Part 2
While this BB offers tremendous help to everybody, remember that YOU ARE STILL YOUR BIGGEST ALLY. Any agitation you do to yourself makes the tunnel that you are in longer.

I know - easier said than done - but you have to pull yourself together luv - while we figure out a way to bring you towards the tunnel's end.

Theres a way out of this, be strong.
Hello spartanhearted,
Thanks so much for "Your two cents"! I know I have to shut my big Italian-Indian- English mouth! I just have a hard time with being called nasty names and him downing all I do, which is not much. I go to Mom's or to sisters and swim. Love to get the sun! Hard sitting here by self all the time. I do have a kennel but that does not take much time up. I have started an internet business so may give me more to do now. I really want this marriage to work, but maybe I blew it totally the other night. One of my biggest fears and oh yes would be my fault this time as I did say lots. He is jealous and why when he has someone else? Really weird to hear that. He even cuts down how I dress and how I do my hair which is really nice. I have lost lots of weight again, dropped 50 lbs and on my way to a 5-6. Maybe this is what is bugging him as I always look nice. I worked up till June so it was always uniforms as I am a nurses aide and had to pull my long hair back. If he is so worried about me why then doesn't he give up affair and tell me if he feels anything for me. At least try to put something back that he has taken? I would never do what he has done to anyone as I am a God fearer and do love God. He even scoffs at that and I told him not to laugh at God. I thought he believed also, but maybe I was wrong? Well I do appreciate your 2 cents as I feel you have a good head and see things different then I do. I just do not know what a good plan now would be. I hope I did not totally screw up. Thanks again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I would like an update on your situation.
have you read surviving as affair...divorcebusting
and divorce remedy. You have to become the man your wife fell in love with.

Without the begging pleading being needy and etc.
Hi Malc,
I am the Wife! I have not done any begging, pleading, needy maybe as I filed for support. I have not read any of DB Books yet but did read Tough Love and His Needs Her Needs. Both are very good. I have been on here reading for months now and have learned lots. I do have faults also. Most are my big mouth as I just can not stand anyone cutting me down with yelling. Maybe if he could talk to me with some? love I could do better.
I just did not know what to do with my WH always coming after only 7 days of the 2 no contact letters handed to him. He wrote me a very nasty one and I gave him another no contact letter and 7 days later - thurs night he was here again attacking my emotions. I got caught off guard. I have posted over on resolving conflicks a few months ago under Doreen. What update did you want - was not clear to me.
I read some of your posts also. I do hope all goes well for you! A baby is the most precious thing in life. We all make mistakes but learn from them. I wanted 12 but had 3 which are all grown now, but have 15 grands! Love each and everyone of them too! 4 of those are from another marriage. Well Thank you for your post and I will look for another one. God Bless.
Would LoveNCare start a new thread? This, if I may say so, is a thread jack.

I'd like to follow aanst's qiet, calm, composed, yet sad story which will, I'm sure, have a happy end with time. Aanst, I too like your staying true to yourself. I don't like hinting at something that one doesn't feel or is actually doing. That is against the policy of radical honesty and not a good foundation for a relationship.

<small>[ August 18, 2002, 03:33 AM: Message edited by: relate ]</small>
Hello Annast2,
I writing this to apologize for coming in on your tread. I just wanted Spartanhearted's view on my situation and being new I did not realize what I had done or how to do it another way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> So please except my Apology. I have followed your tread as you know and want to give you a big hug for your efforts which I wish my WH would do half as much. I only hope your WW wakes up and realizes what she has at home to work a beautiful marriage with. Many MB'ers do not get that chance. I wish you all the luck and happiness. God will guide.
It seems to me that you have been getting very good feedback, and counseling with Steve is the best thing you can do.

I may be speaking out of turn here, as I did not read your complete thread, but your W moving out to her own place seems like a turning point that you have to address.

What has Steve said about this? I would certainly follow his advice.

Perhaps Plan B is the next step? Do you think you are ready for that?

I'll keep track of you over the next few days, become more familiar with all the details, and try to contribute as much as I can.

Stay strong!
aanast -- Just checking in with you and what is or is not happening with WW. While I don't agree with some of what was posted to you/think it's inconsistent with what you were hearing from Steve Harley, I do think it is worth looking at and discussing with Steve the idea of detaching a bit from her family.

I think that will still help with some of her independence issues. Maybe it could be accomplished by telling them why you are doing it.

What have you heard from WW? I will try and check in again on Friday.
Thanks to everyone who has replied. I haven't posted an update in awhile because 1) there was nothing to update - my WW was on vacation for a week w/ her sis and friends and 2) because I'm a teacher and the new school year started which can get busy!

Spartanhearted- thanks for your reply. I value all input and points of view. As for me being faithful to Plan A "until kingdom come", that is definately not going to happen. I do have a time limit for Plan A (I'm not sure what that is yet but... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ). I do think I will go to Plan B and maybe even a divorce eventually (if WW doesn't come around). I just do not know when I make the move just yet (I want to confer with Steve Harley who has advised that in my situation - no kids - that I need to stay in Plan A for as long as *I* can hack it.)

As for my WW's A not ever ending. I'm aware of that possibility. I obviously hope it does end but I'm the type of guy who thinks about all possibilities, hopes for the best and expects the worst.

As for pushing my WW away with Plan A. Perhaps. I'm constantly trying to do a better Plan A. I don't beg. I do my best not to educate and talk about our M. I try to just be interested in her life and focus on the friendship. I definately never talk about OM. Sometimes my WW brings those things up and I do talk about them but I'm careful what I say (though I admit I do get a bit too talkative at times). I massage her because she wants me to and I think/thought meeting needs was part of Plan A.

As for doing a 180 to get to my goal. You may be right. I don't know. If I completely Plan B (total no contact) it could push her away more. I'm waiting for my next conference with SH before I make a move like that.

I agree. I do have a right to stop hurting. I do not plan to be in Plan A forever if my WW does not start to come around. I'm no masocist. However, I'm a determined person in whatever I put my mind towards. I can go the distance in Plan A or Plan B. I just don't know what is best for me and my M.

I think if I do go to Plan B I will not drop hints of my filing for a divorce or being with another woman to her or her family. I think honesty is the best policy.

As for the yo-yo situation with me and OM. I understand it. I don't get my hopes up the odd time the yo-yo swings my way. It is my WW's guilt that gets her to contact/be with me. Her A is full on - lots of fog - no end in sight!

I guess part of my allowing the yo-yo to happen (and not going to Plan B yet) is that I can outlast OM (I have more invested) and he won't be able to take the fact that I kiss her or massage her. Or she will lie to him about it...and her lies will add up. who knows...

Relate- I agree with you. I do not think she is trying to give me bits of hope. I think she feels bad/guilty, cares about me, and doesn't want to see me hurt. So, she wants to reach out to me.

LoveNCare- no problem. no need for an apology. I've thread jacked before myself (just ask Spacecase! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) It is hard not to because all our situations are so similar. It helps to "get it off our chest" and perhaps the similarities can give insight to others.

Spacecase- thanks for your input. If/when you get a chance to read this whole long thread, I'd love more of your insight. As for my WW getting her own place automatically means I go to Plan B, I thought it was in order too. I think I'm ready for it. But I can keep up Plan A too. I need to talk to Steve again. Last month (the last time we spoke) he said stay in Plan A (due to my situation - having no kids) knowing full well that she was moving out from her parents into her own apartment. So we'll see.

unsureheart- thanks as always for your interest/support. I do finally have an update as my WW is back from her trip. I'll post it in a minute.
Ok, here's the update:

While my WW was on vacation, I had a heart to heart with her brother (who is one of my best friends since I was 9) and her sister's husband (also a long time good friend.) Even though we had quite a few beers that night <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , we had a serious talk about my "situation."

Anyway, they both told me they loved me and feel for me and can't believe what a huge mistake and terrible thing their sister is doing. Anyway my WW's brother told me that while he doesn't think her and OM will work out, he doesn't think she'll ever come back to me because, he says, he knows her and how stubborn she is. Interesting conversation to say the least.

Anyway, Friday night my WW called me. I knew it was her but didn't answer. She didn't leave a message.

On Sunday her brother invited me to his parents for a bbq (him, my bro, my WW, and his other sis). While there I chatted with my WW and worked my charm. Initially, when I asked her how she was doing, she said she was "happy." She said being on her own is helping her learn/experience new things about herself.

Later in the conversation, we laughed and talked about her trip, school starting up again (she is a teacher too) among other things. She asked me about help with her tv. She said she called on Friday to see how my first day back at work went but didn't leave a message. She also told me about a problem she is having with her neighbor taking her paid-for parking spot. I listened.

She also mentioned that she was going to get a kitten for her place because she is "lonely." (hmmm... I thought she said she was happy.)

At one point during our conversation, I was telling her a story. I refered to her as my wife. She immediately said "don't call me that." I said I will call you that because you are my wife (I know I was just looking for trouble with that comment.) She replies "well not for long." I said well until then.

Overall the conversation was great, positive, like old friends laughing and chatting it up. My WW commented that we should have always been just friends.

At first when I saw and talked to her she seemed like a stranger. However, as we chatted, certain looks and ways she spoke made me remember the old W who I love. I looked great (I have to say that I really try to look and be my best whenever I see her.) My brother complemented me later on that I was shining.

Monday she called and left a message (while I was at work.) She had a question about paying her student loan bill. She also said she was coming over Tuesday to get the remainder of her things (fall clothes and other stuff) because her first day back is Wednesday.

I called her back that night. She said I didn't have to do that. We arranged for a time on Wednesday (today) when I would be home for her to get her stuff. It was brief, I guess I woke her up.

Ok, now for today (Wednesday.) She came over. We chatted while she went through her mail (which btw she is now having forwarded to her new place.) She also told me about the kitten she got. Then she began taking the remainder of her wardrobe and other stuff out of the closets etc. I helped her. She also started throwing things away too that she didn't want anymore.

I got a bit sentimental watching her throw away thigns and I also got a bit angry. So I walked away and went to watch tv. A few minutes later she came into the den and asked me if something was wrong. I said no but asked if she needed more help.

Well when I approached her, she reached out to me and we held each other. She seemed troubled. She said part of her feels very bad. I told her I don't want to preach or educate her. I said if she is sure she knows what she is doing there is nothing I can say, but, I said, if she is not sure than I can. We were holding hands.

I began massaging her and she asked me to lie in bed with her to massage her. I complied. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> We talked more. She said she feels very guilty about what she has done to me. She said sometimes she sees me and feels she ruined my life.

She then said "we both feel guilty about it."

I told her that I feel guilty too and so does her family and mine and everyone. She then said, you know what I mean by "we" feel guilty. I said I do know who she means. I said I understand her feelings and I appreciate her honesty.

She then went on to say that she never meant to hurt me. She added that "things just happen" and it was not intentional... We had problems before OM was in the picture and over time her feelings grew for him. (same old stuff she's been telling me since day 1). I remained a good listener. I told her that feelings are feelings and are not good or bad.

She said she is a good/nice person and so is OM. She said she is not a fool running off with some drug dealer or terrible person. She said in the past when she said OM was "like me" she meant he is a good person like me and she is angry that everyone took it the wrong way.

I told her that I wouldn't ramble, but that I want to tell her how I feel, what I want and hope, but I've said it before and she knows. She agreed that she knows.

She also said that it is "f-cked up" that I would ever take her back and forgive her.

I said if that happens we'd have a long way to go. She said "yeah, yeah, yeah, I know a lot of steps, a long process like you've said but if we tried, you know we'd do it."

She said she used to think that I was the guy who would "pamper her" (a phrase she has used for many years about why she decided to date me.) I told her that I am that guy and apologized for neglecting her when I did.

She said that although I say that I love her and try to change now, how could I not notice all those times for months of her laying on the floor by herself, feeling sad, and listening to music or times she was alone in bed waiting for me.

I told her that I was an idiot! I told her I will kick myself for that for the rest of my life whatever happens between us. I also told her that I've learned a lesson and am continuing to learn, change, and be a better person and would never let that happen again whoever I'm with. I apologized for my past failures and told her I would like an opportunity to show her that I can be a better husband.

At one point I suggested she talk to Steve Harley because it would help me and maybe it would help her. She said no. She wants me to get over her and she is telling me to my face so I don't need to hear it through Steve. She also refuses to pay for counselling or have me pay for it.

So I did get a bit preachy...

I told her that one thing I have to say is that I know that we were in love. I told her that I know she was committed to me and that I was meeting her needs and not neglecting her. I told her that I know that it can happen again. I added that feelings come and go and actions or lack of actions influence those feelings.

At that point she put her finger over my mouth (with good reason, I do get going sometimes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ).

During this time/conversation (I wasn't doing much of a good massage) we lay together holding each other. My WW started getting affectionate almost kissing my neck. She said she feels sad like this was goodbye for her & for us and that is why she was doing what she was doing. She told me she didn't want to give me any wrong ideas. I told her not to worry that I wasn't being given any wrong ideas (ok, I lied a bit here. I was getting the wrong idea. Can you blame me?)

Then she started kissing me. We kissed pretty passionately. Then she started maneuvering for something more! ? I then stopped and looked her in the eye and said I was sorry for hurting her all those times.

She then stopped and moved away from me completely. I asked her to look me in the eyes. She pulled away and said what we were doing was wrong.

I asked why it is wrong. She said because we are not living like a married, committed couple. She said she is committed to someone else now. I told her that her feelings were not wrong. I asked how it could be wrong for her to do this to someone she loved for years and made a commitment to spend the rest of her life with. She said those vows have been over for a long time.

She immediately went back to packing her things etc. Things became very silent. I approached her again and asked if she felt awkward by what happened. She said she shouldn't have done it and it is just giving me the wrong idea. I asked her if she'd like me to forget it. She said yes so I said done, forgotten.

The remainder of her visit then became more pleasant and jovial. I helped her load the car and joked with her.

Later she said that even though sometimes she feels like she's ruined my life, she sees that I'm changing. I asked her not to pity me and to think of me as someone who is strong and wants to be a better person and a better husband. She said she would.

Then I jokingly added that she should think that losing me is her loss (ok, I don't know what I was thinking with that comment. ?!) She didn't laugh and said she wouldn't do that because then she would feel sad.

She mentioned that (yet again) she will have to come back to get her things. She said she still needs some books and stuffed animals.

Things ended on a positive note. I complemented her again on her looks (one of her EN's I've come to realize.) I told her that I miss her and love her. She then drove away.

I'm not too sad at all really. (I had a good cry yesterday when I heard the song "When a Man Loves a Woman." it had been awhile.) Honestly, I'm kinda indifferent feeling. Either way it goes I'm excited about the future.

Well, that is mostly it (from what I remember.) Nothing really new. I gotta make an appointment with SH to see what my next move is. I'm guessing he'll say keep up with Plan A since that is what he said last time. Part of me wants to move on. Part of me says if we get to recovery it'll all be worth it.

the limbo continues... though she may divorce me soon (it is the title of this thread...)

I guess we'll see.

your thoughts?
I think everything you did sounds just right, including the pulling back. She wants you and may become a cakewoman if you let her. I think she left wanting you *and* respecting you.
aanast -- Sorry you're still with us all in limbo land, but it sounds like you are doing better and better in all of this. I am very curious to hear what your next move is after consulting with Steve Harley. If you can, you should check out the posts of Elad, Going Crazy and Seahorse -- we're all in the same boat (as I am sure many others are too, unfortunately).

I'll check in when I get back from my long weekend with family.

Stay strong -- you are doing so well.

Thanks for your reply. I appreciate your support of my actions.

I often wonder if she wants me or not. Her words say no, but her actions leave me wondering. I know actions speak louder than words but sometimes she is very convincing.

I am really focusing on myself though, but do want to listen to her and her feelings (one of her needs) without those two things conflicting with each other.

unsureheart- as always, thanks for your words of encouragement. I do feel that I'm not LBing and am a safe place for my WW to return too. I'm still working on the changing of myself part (and her recognizing those changes.)

I have to admit, though, that while I think I can Plan A for a long time and would take my WW back if she wanted to work on the M, I sometimes feel a lack of hope for my M because my WW still mentions divorce and shows no signs of wanting to work on the M.

On a personal level, I'm feeling stronger and less in pain than I was months ago. I'm enjoying my career and my friends and hobbies. Everything in life is going well for me except my M. I know that *I* really will be ok whatever happens and I don't feel depressed. I also think about my WW and M less often than I used to.

I'm concerned that my feelings of losing hope, moving on, and borderline indifference is bad for my M if my WW does come back in the far future (my lovebank will be empty.) A Plan B would not help my feelings return because those feelings are fading because of a lack of contact with my WW. (The truth is my WW has not made a true love bank deposit in a long time - because she "does not want to give me false hope" if she did deposit though, I would feel re-energized for Plan A.)

Don't get me wrong though, I still love my WW, miss her, am sad about our M, and would love a chance for both of us to work at it. I'm just concerned that my becoming stronger and dealing with my separation is also causing my feelings for my WW to fade (and her telling me that THAT is exactly what she wants doesn't help either.)

Since I haven't heard from my WW in a while I really have no news. I did call her (for a change) to see how her first day back at work went (last Tue). She didn't seem to want to talk at all and said she'd be coming by later in the week to get her mail but she never came or called. I haven't hear from her since.

I did have dinner with her sister and her husband. Her sister says that regarding the separation my WW says "she needs to do this for herself." Her sister also says that the OM is ugly. I asked her if it would be ok if he was more handsome than me, or richer, etc? She said no, I'm right, so she guesses her sister is attracted to what is inside the OM.

I also still have to make an appointment with SH, though I'm not sure what I will ask him.

thanks for listening.
Just checking in with you aanast -- Have you heard from WW yet? Have you made an appointment with Steve Harley? How are you feeling?

Thank you so much for catching up with me on my thread in GQII. It really helps knowing there are a couple of people that are keeping up with our various trials and tribulations.

Like you, the other parts of my life seem to have improved -- my health/exercise, my career, my friendships, my relationships with my family. I think that's all you can do right now -- plus have the patience of saint. You are doing well.
Thanks for checking in with me unsureheart.

I saw my WW briefly at my in-laws weekly bbq last Sunday. She asked me if I brought her mail for her. I said no and that I thought she was going to come over for it. She seemed a bit peeved that I didn't bring it and said that I should know that she visits her parents everyday and should have brought it. She said she'd come by some day this week. (She hasn't called or come by. In fact there are some unpaid bills she knows that are waiting for her that continue to wait for her. I still haven't called her.)

Also last Sunday evening I talked to her a bit more about how things were going. We laughed about the dog and she told me about her new cat. I told her to bring the kitten this week so I could meet it. She said she would.

That was it and I haven't heard from her since.

I've actually been very busy with work. And I'm loving it. I can honestly say that I love my job and look forward to going everyday (which has been happening for 2+ years now.)

As I said in my last post, I have not been thinking about my wife too much. I guess I'm withdrawing. I don't want to call her/chase her because it seems to drive her away further. In the past she's contacted me weekly - biweekly but now it seems to be less than that. In many ways I just feel so tired of the whole thing (and to be honest, sometimes thinking about ending it and then dating around seems a bit more exciting. But I'll wait.)

Part of me feels that I'm finally accepting the reality of things that she is never coming back and I should just move on.

I do still miss her. I would of course take her back. I don't LB. But no change from her which makes me lose hope. But I wait.

I haven't made an appointment with Steve yet. I'm not sure what I would ask him. So I guess I'm procrastinating (though work really has been busy in a good way.)

I guess (since he'll tell me to stay in plan A) I would ask him if I should keep up the weekly get togethers at my in-laws? (I'm thinking yes) Should I pursue/call my wife more? (I'm thinking no) I don't really have any other questions that I can think of at the moment.

Other than that, I think I know what I'm supposed to be doing (and I'm doing it.) It just sucks that my wife is avoiding me (almost) completely.

So to make a long story short, nothing new. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Take care!
brief update-

Lately since I haven't heard from my WW, I have felt lonely and missed her companionship/voice -her! I've thought about calling her but resisted. Then I've wondered how long I should wait before I do call, if I ever call, what if she never calls again, etc.

Anyway, she ended up calling today. We spoke for a record 45 minutes! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> She started by talking to me about her new kitten and how it purrs loud. It seems pretty cute for a cat, we laughed together at all its antics. (She's going to bring it over tomorrow.)

Well soon enough my WW got down to the business of her call. She is coming tomorrow to get her mail. For some reason most of it is not being forwarded to her and there are some bills here that she needs to get.

Later she asked me how I was doing. I told her of my fun adventures at work, friends, and how busy I am as of late. She said I sounded like I was doing well.

I told her about how I'm working extra jobs here and there at work to make extra bucks which helps and I'm doing ok bill wise. She said that her taking away all the other bills (her car and student loans) must help a lot seeing that I'm paying the mortgage, home equity loan, etc.

I talked and listened to her about her life and work. She said she is tired all the time and is not motivated to go to work at all (partially because she is tired but partially because she is just going through the motions there.) For the most part I used my great listening skills and just tried to be a friend for her listening to her life and issues etc.

At one point in the conversation, when I mentioned a coworker of mine giving me a ride to work (because my car was in the shop), my WW asked me if she was female.
I said "yeah." She responded with a sly "oohh..." and I replied with "no way, don't even, first of all, she is getting married" My WW interrupted with "well that doesn't matter" and I said "yes it does, plus I'm married." She didn't like hearing that.

Later on she mentioned that living in an apartment is definately not as good as having her own house. She said she is paying almost as much as I pay for our mortgage but she said she is throwing away the money (i.e. not building equity). Plus she has to wait for the landlord to fix things, as well as continuing to have parking spot issues.

She added that in June she will buy her own place and not longer rent when her lease is up. She told me to be ready for June because that is when she will need her money from the house. I just listened and told her I understand what she is saying.

Later she said that on Friday she is having her first "get together" at her apartment. I (in typical aanast2 witty fashion) asked her what time I should be there! (knowing full well that I'm not invited) and she said it was just for "the girls" (her friends and coworkers.) I told her to have fun.

Towards the end of the conversation, when she asked me how I was doing, I said I missed her. Then I dared to say I love you (even though I knew full well she gets frustrated when I tell her that.) She said that I shouldn't say that, she has been gone since February, and I need to get on with my life without her and not just sit around the house hoping and feeling sorry for myself. She added that when she visits tomorrow that I shouldn't bring candy, flowers, or roll the red carpet out for her.

I got a bit frustrated at her saying those things. I told her that obviously I *am* living my life without her! I added while I do have hope and am working on changing and making myself a better person, I'm not sitting around pathetically as she implies.

Then I said if anything she should bring me candy and flowers!!! I didn't want to come across too angry (unsafe) or anything so I quickly &jokingly added that I especially like chocolate with carmel, like those caramellos and if she'd bring some tomorrow that would be great! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Anyway, I enjoyed hearing from her. It actually sparked my interest for her more (as I mentioned not hearing from her was making me a bit resentful and indifferent.) She didn't mention OM or divorce but her tone was similar to how it has been for some time. No change on her part.

Well, I'm going to bed but just wanted to post (for anyone listening and for myself as a journal of sorts.)

We'll see what happens tomorrow afternoon when/if she comes by.
Hello aanast -- On the whole it does sound positive. You talked for 45 minutes (she could have called and simply asked/need to pick up my mail and ended it at that). She is still asking you how you are doing. She is going to bring her kitten over. She is able to joke with you.

I have to keep reminding myself that it really is baby steps toward even being able to spend real time together. It sounds from what you have posted as if she is "warming" up to you. She no longer brings up divorce. The warning about the house is a lot calmer than it was a few months ago when she was getting angry with you for not agreeing immediately to sell.

It also sounds as if she is getting a bit of a dose of reality being in that apartment.

Stay strong. You really seem to be doing well. I am also glad to see you posting to others as well, especially Toro since he's about to embark on a separation and try and plan A. I think you have good advice.
Hi unsureheart,

Thanks for the reply. I feel that I am doing great (regardless of how my WW acts.) I do hope to post more to others and help (if I can) too.

You're right about my WW spending more time and seeming more interested in me. She could have cut the conversation short (like when I would call her) but she seemed interested in me. Even though we rarely talk or see each other (rarely=1 to 2 weeks) when we do now it seems to be for longer periods of time and to be positive/promising.

From her point of view though, she just wants to be friends with me and according to her that is all we ever should have been.

As for how today went, my WW came by much later than she said she would (6pm instead of 4pm). She did call and tell me though. Our time was limited though because she wanted to get back to her place to watch a show live on TV (plus a friend of mine was coming over and she didn't want to be around.)

She was only over for about an hour. Her kitten went nuts running all over the house. It was fun and we laughed watching her antics.

My WW went through her mail and we chatted and ate some dinner. Things were definately on a friendly level. I have to agree (especially thinking about baby steps) that we are more friendly with each other these days than a few months ago (although in some ways it seems a bit fake.)

Anyway, my friend came by at 7pm and my WW originally planned on leaving before he came by because she thought it would be awkward (even though this friend knew her since the 1st grade and we've all known each other since the 4th grade!)

She didn't leave though. When he rang the doorbell, she seemed to panic a bit. She asked me if he knew what was happening with us. I said that he knows we are having problems (something she has asked me countless times about him and my other friends and family, but somehow she forgets that she's asked me already or forgets my response.) She asked if he knows we are separated. I said of course, he has been over here a few times and knows you are not living here. She then asked if he knew more than that. I said well he can guess.

She apologized for it being an awkward situation. I told her that I didn't feel awkward at all and I was glad she was here and it was good seeing her.

My friend didn't know my WW would be there and he seemed a bit awkward. Later (when she left) we spoke and he said it was weird to be chatting like everything was ok between us even though he knows they aren't. I thanked him for being on his best behavior (in the past he and other friends and family of mine have gotten upset about my WW's actions because they want to protect me) and reminded him that we are still married. He did, however, point on out that she hasn't filed for divorce which is a good sign.

Overall, I think it was a good for my WW to see that my close friends are civil towards her (possibly adding to her view of me as a "safe" choice - I'm not some bitter BS who complains to all my friends who bad mouth her or anything.)

My WW told me that she was expecting concert tickets in the mail and asked me to look for them and drop them off at her parents asap. I said sure.

Later in the evening my friend and I talked about my Plan A and possible B someday. He asked me when I make the move to B and I said I don't know but I guess I will know when the time comes.

We also talked about the idea/feeling of closure. I told him that everytime I see my WW now I think of it as it being the last time I may ever see her again and think of it as a closure in a way. It is very true actually. Every time I see her (tonight for example) may vewy well be the last time. I hope not but who knows, anything could happen, she may divorce me, I may need to go to plan B before I see her again.

As I said goodbye to my WW before she drove away, we talked about the neighborhood. She said it always made her feel old (it is very quiet) but she said she wanted that at the time. I told her I love the neighborhood but would consider moving to another state or country (something she always wanted to do.) She said that at one time she would have liked that but not anymore. I told her "who knows what the future holds, anything could happen" and left it at that.

take care.
OK, nothing new from me (i.e. my WW hasn't called or visited) but I have to say that I've been hearing this new U2 song ("Electrical Storm") a lot lately and the lyrics seem very fitting so I thought I'd post them:

The sea it swells like a sore head
And the night it is aching
Two lovers lie with no sheets on their bed
And the day it is breaking

On rainy days we'd go swimming out
On rainy days, swimming in the sound
On rainy days we'd go swimming out

You're in my mind all of the time
I know that's not enough
If the sky can crack, there must be some way back
For love and only love

Car alarm won't let ya back to sleep
You're kept awake dreaming some else's dream
Coffee is cold, but it'll get you through
Compromise, that's nothing new to you

Let's see colors that have never been seen!
Let's go to places no one else has been!

You're in my mind all of the time
I know that's not enough
Well if the sky can crack, there must be some way back
To love and only love

Electrical Storm Electrical Storm Electrical Storm
Baby don't cry

It's hot as hell, honey in this room
Sure hope the weather will break soon
The air is heavy, heavy as a truck
We need the rain to wash away our bad luck

Well if the sky can crack, there must be some way back
For love and only love

Electrical Storm Electrical Storm Electrical Storm

Baby don't cry Baby don't cry Baby don't cry
Baby don't cry
Here's a brief (is anything brief with me? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) :

I debated whether or not to go to my in-laws tonight for the usual sunday night dinner. My mother-in-law called me 3 times and my brother-in-law (and longtime childhood friend) called me once to remind me. I wanted to go because I miss them and enjoy their company, the meal of course is always great <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , and I want to see my WW.

At the same time, I didn't want to go because it would bring up painfully obvious to me - that my M is in limbo, etc. Lately, I've been keeping so busy with work etc. that I'm trying to take my mind off things to dull the pain. I'm thinking that that is also why many BS want to go to Plan B earlier than they should (i.e. to escape the pain. However, having said that, it is weird with me. When I don't talk to my WW I start worrying and feeling down but now when I do I feel better - I guess I just love even hearing the sound of her voice? who knows, I'm crazy I know.)

Anyway, I decided to go. However, my WW was not at the bbq. It turns out that she has a cold and stayed at her apartment all day. I chatted with the family, they showed me their support as usual. We made plans for later in the week (b-day dinner for my other bro-in-law and apple picking next Sunday.) I was a bit sad when I left there just because I was feeling sorry for myself really.

When I got home I decided to call my W. I usually don't call her (on purpose) and let her call me (as I don't want to seem desperate and pushy) but I figured it had been awhile since we last spoke/saw each other and I hadn't called her in ages so it would be natural and I wouldn't seem pathetic or needy to her (but rather just concerned and loving). I asked her how she was doing, hoped she felt better, gave her advice on drinking plenty of fluids/chicken noodle soup etc. We chatted about all kinds of stuff like how things were going such as her cat, my dog, our families, our jobs.

Some interesting (minor?) points:

When I mentioned my uncle (from England) will be visiting my mom and family, my wife apologized. I asked for what? She said she's sorry that I'll be put in the situation when he asks me about her and/or wonders where she is.

My wife also mentioned that the other day she was at the store with her dad and didn't have her credit card on her, so she used our joint account to buy something (only like $27 or something.) She said she would deposit it back tomorrow along with $100 of her contribution to the car insurance (as she has been doing because she has the new car we got in January.) That (besides her own student loans and cell phone) is all she contributes towards the family (house) bills. I pay all the rest.

I'm not sure what to think about the money thing. I've considered getting my own separate account in the past (especially over the summer when she was raging about money all the time), but since lately she's been calm about things, I've kinda put it off. Some people have recommended I do, and some have warned me to consult with a lawyer first. I'd have to also switch our home equity automatic withdrawals and other payments to my own account. That isn't much of a hassle, but if we do end up divorcing, I don't want to screw myself over by doing or not doing something financially now.

Actually, though, I have to admit that I honestly don't care that much about the money thing. People (especially my family and her family) get pissed off at me when I say that. But it's the truth. Money doesn't matter that much to me. Heck, I'm a teacher! Sure, I'll admit that if things don't work out for my WW and I, it would be great if financially I ended up ok. But if I lose everything, I can always make more money someday. None of my friends owned their own homes at 23 or now at 27. Then again, none of them are married or close to being married. Ok, I'm rambling here, but my point is I'd rather be happily married in a cardboard box, than have all the money in the world and be in my situation now (not that I have much money at all right now).

Hmmm... having all the money in the world would be pretty cool though. At least for a few days. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Anyway back to my summary of my conversation with my wife. Overall, our talk was brief tonight. I would say the conversation lasted a good 20 minutes or so. I ended it first. We kinda just were running out of things to talk about. I mean what can you talk about really? Catching up on what has happened is one thing but when you are done with that, then what? You can't talk about future plans together (like you had in the past.) You don't want to bring up stuff that will just be an LB. hmmm...

Anyway, it made me feel good to talk to her as I really do/did miss her and am concerned about her (breadcrumbs or not.) The conversation was pleasant and we talked like we were old friends catching up on things. No talk of A, D, M, OM, OR, LMNOP, or QRSTUV <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> She also thanked me for calling her at the end of our conversation.

Hopefully this is just one of many babysteps in the right direction.

just felt like rambling tonight... thanks for reading <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
You seem such a nice, solid guy. But women fall in love with criminals; there's no logic to it. From what you say, the OM comes accross as a jolly old loveable chap.

Work out and put on some muscles; buy some new clothes; get a new car. I dunno, just some ideas on things you can do, if only to take your mind off her.

I am sorry that you are missing her and for your pain.
Hi relate-

Thanks for your reply.

You seem such a nice, solid guy. But women fall in love with criminals; there's no logic to it.
Thanks for the compliment. You know, I've heard that many times about women falling for bad dudes. (and nice guys finish last too.)

From what you say, the OM comes accross as a jolly old loveable chap.
I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic here or basing this off of what my WW thinks.

Work out and put on some muscles; buy some new clothes; get a new car. I dunno, just some ideas on things you can do, if only to take your mind off her.
Actually my mind has been on her less and less to tell the truth. I start feeling guilty about it actually. I am honestly really enjoying much of the rest of my life (and I'm busy too) that I don't think about her and our situation. I feel guilty because

1. I think maybe I'm denying/burying my feelings and perhaps not dealing with things that way I should, and

2. I'm getting over her, falling out of love, etc.

I do need to get some more muscles, and buy new clothes. No new car though (it's cool enough <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

I am sorry that you are missing her and for your pain.

Thanks again for your reply. It is amazing how I (my feelings) have changed over the last 7 months. I definately don't feel as much "pain" or at least as sharp.

I did see my WW briefly on Wednesday night. I went out with the in-laws for my bro-in-law's b-day dinner. We all (the family) ate together (8 of us including me.) It was nice, we joked, ate good food, and had fun. It was almost as though everything was fine with WW and me (though all at the table know what is going on with us.) WW and I barely spoke but when we did it was pleasant. She was happy that I brought a bag of her mail for her.

Also, looks like apple picking this Sunday. We'll see what happens next.
aanast - You seem so calm right now. I did want to make a quick comment on the money thing. Remember it was not all that long ago that she was getting really angry with you and wanting "her" money from the house. The good news is that it doesn't sound as if she even brings that up anymore.

I've also noticed that she doesn't bring up divorce in the conversation anymore.

Good signs my friend. Thanks for checking in with me on my panic post. I've calmed down a bit and WH wants to talk. I am scared to death (well not really, but pretty nervous). I told him I'd like to wait a bit. I know if we had talked on Monday or Tuesday when d-day #2 hit, I would have been a walking angry lovebuster weilding dog doo.

Back to you -- I think you will know when you start needing to think about protecting your assets. I think it's a bit different for us than most because we don't have children and both spouses work make similar incomes. I believe it would be very different for me/I would be far more protective if I had young ones at home to think about.

Take care. Have a good weekend.
"You seem so calm right now."
I'm really have a blast at work. It is very fun. I get along so well with my coworkers and students. I look forward to going every day.

"I did want to make a quick comment on the money thing. Remember it was not all that long ago that she was getting really angry with you and wanting "her" money from the house. The good news is that it doesn't sound as if she even brings that up anymore."

Well, it is good news in that it doesn't panic me or LB me. However, looking back (and trying to see things from her point of view) I think she was more angry over the summer because 1) she was living at home and her mom was giving her hell and 2) the money thing worried her because she was concerned about all her expenses getting an apartment and all the things that go with it

Now, she isn't as worried about money (things are settled down for her since she has been in her apartment since August and since she isn't living under the same roof as her mom, their relationship has improved slightly.)

So we'll see when her lease is up in June as to what happens (God I don't want to wait that long.)

I've also noticed that she doesn't bring up divorce in the conversation anymore.

True, that is a good sign I guess.

"I know if we had talked on Monday or Tuesday when d-day #2 hit, I would have been a walking angry lovebuster weilding dog doo."
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> deservedly so!

somtimes I wonder if all this crap is worth it. if trust and love can return someday, that great but that seems so far away and such a huge IF. alas, I (we all) still wait.

"Back to you -- I think you will know when you start needing to think about protecting your assets. I think it's a bit different for us than most because we don't have children and both spouses work make similar incomes. I believe it would be very different for me/I would be far more protective if I had young ones at home to think about."
true. good point about the kids. If I had children, I would be way more angry because of the natural protective instinct I think.

"Take care. Have a good weekend."
you too. seriously have a *good* one! you deserve it.
From what you say, the OM comes accross as a jolly old loveable chap.
I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic here or basing this off of what my WW thinks."

It is the impression one gets from the description of your in-laws of him as ugly, the fact that he is a janitor (!), the 'tu gordo' phrase etc. and that your wife must have found something to love in him. She's certainly going for the opposite end of the spectrum, isn't she? Seems like a 'Lady Chatterly's Lover" kind of thing.

- Relate
damn, my whole post was just deleted! I hate that.

anyway, here we go again. Thanks relate for your reply.

my update - my WW bails on apple picking with her parents on Sunday, seems upset that I'm going (she didn't know.) later that night at dinner she shows up at her parents and things seem cordial and friendly.

today she calls out of the blue, wants to make sure i'm cool with the bank account separating, giving her share of the house, the car, her belongings, etc.

then she tells me she has hired a lawyer with a retainer of $3500 and the lawyer is drafting the diovorce papers on Monday the 14th.

I get upset, cry, ask her why. she doesn't have a good answer. Finally she says because her feelings for me faded, I didn't respond to her letting me know, her feelings grew for someone else.

I asked her why she can't give the man she loved, of all the most deserving people in the whole world, her own husband, one chance. no response for awhile. finally, she says she can't.

we go around the same bs reasons she has been saying all along. I'm more than a bit upset. I feel i'm on the fu(king rollercoaster again.

at some point she said she didn't file earlier because she couldn't bring herself to break my heart. She said she cried looking through the phone book for lawyers. She feels sorry for me, is sorry.

i told her it wasn't good enough. she broken my heart continues to, and doesn't have to do this. I told her I felt sorry for her. She asked me why, I told her she knows and if she doesn't now she will someday. (LB I know but I couldn't help it.)

At some ponit, she asked me if i'd give her another chance despite all she's done and I said yes, I believe everyone deserves a second chance.

I ended the conversation more positively (with chat on something non-M related that I can't remember because I didn't want to end it on a LB downer note.)

there was more to this conversation overall but it was all deleted and I don't feel like typing it again now.

anyway, the point is nothing new from her point of view. she seems a bit conflicted but not enough to save the marriage. I believe her this time that she will file on monday. She seems to want everything to go smoothly as she emphasized so neither of us will have to pay lawyers extra money.

I'm very sad/upset (i was cool and calm but oh well.) I'm going to make an appointment with Steve (my last?) I'll do Plan B, I'll do more Plan A. I don't know what is best. I can do either at this point. I highly doubt either will have any effect (maybe B would piss her off more.)

We'll see what happens monday. Thanks for listening to my babble. It is nice to get it all out sometimes. I haven't cried in awhile either.

take care all.

This is more than a little disheartening.

The text (HNHN) says that once a woman has settled into a situation, it is easiler for her to stay exclusively in that situation, whereas a man usually waffles. It seems like a woman can generally love only one person exclusively, while a man can have feeling for more than one person. That means if she comes back to you, you have a good chance that she will break things off with the other man and stay with you. Unfortunately, it also means that if she's with him, it is more difficult to get her back.

This is a tough time, especially if you are alone. Reach out to your friends and family, perhaps your church community.

- relate
Thanks relate-

I have been reaching out to friends and family. They have been supportive. She is definately with OM fully. It is so sad. My M is so sad. What is left of it? nothing I guess.

I know I'll be fine. I feel much better today. I guess I knew this was coming but hoped things would get better. I scheduled an appointment with Steve for MOnday.

I'll see what he thinks. Plan B maybe. I can do it (in many ways I want to do it. I've tried everything else.)

In many ways I just want this whole thing to be over and I want to heal and recover as quick and as healthy as possible.

Thanks for listening.
Yeah! I think immediate plan B, letter and all. Start planning your letter now - but don't make it too long. Plan B is an alternative to divorce, so that she can have a taste of divorce withput you being there as a safety net. Take away the net and let her see how she likes it.

- relate

<small>[ October 10, 2002, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: relate ]</small>
Hi relate, thanks for your reply.

Well I spoke with Steve Harley today. I updated him. He was surprised I hadn't spoken with him since July. I told him that I had nothing new to report until now and also because of $. He understood.

I basically filled him in on everything from July to making changes, her noticing them but not believing them, my being calm, our encounters being friendly, up to her going to a lawyer today.

I told him I can keep doing Plan A or go to Plan B.

He basically said it seems like I'm doing everything I can.

He also said I still should not go to Plan B because it is way too risky without kids.

Additionally, he said Plan B is for when I cannot take the pain.

I told him that I feel like I can continue with Plan A and in many ways the worst part of the pain is behind me. He used the analogy of a runner. For part of a long distance race, a runner feels like he/she could run forever. But every runner knows that he/she cannot run forever and will eventually hit the "wall." He said when/if that happens for me, then Plan B.

I asked him what I should do if she files for divorce or serves me etc. He said I should not fight the divorce or try to prolong things because that will seem like I'm trying to be controlling.

Basically I'm to keep with Plan A. He mentioned two things I could/should work on:

1. If my W asks me how I'm doing. I should NOT say fine. I should tell her the truth and tell her that I'm awful. The truth is this is the most awful thing that has ever happened in my life, I never want it to happen again, and I would never wish it on anyone.

2. Keep working on "chipping away at the idea" that not every stone has been left unturned. I should suggest "how about at least we look into other options together? It would not be a commitment to the M. Let's just see what we might find." I, of course, mentioned to him that I've tried and tried this but will keep trying.

We spoke about how people file for divorce because they feel there is no hope for their M. So my goal is to try my best to nuture the idea in my W that it is not hopeless, but that there is hope.

Overall, Steve asked some good questions and I seemed to be doing the right things (for me and for my M.) But, ultimately, Steve said a M takes work by both of us.

I told him how Plan A has helped me through this and I'm better of now than I was back in March, if I hadn't found MB, or had filed for a divorce earlier. I've learned a lot and am doing better with myself (Plan A really is about me) and maybe by some miracle my M will be saved but if not, I'll be ok too.

I also told him that sometimes I think about the kind of person I want to spend the rest of my life with (respectful, honest, loyal, forgiving) and how my W is not that person. He corrected me and said it is her actions (not her.)

I told him I feel guilty when thinking about actually wanting a divorce and for this to be all over with and to find happiness with someone else. He said it is not wrong to feel that way, it is natural, and part of this whole process. He told me not to feel guilty.

I thanked him and told him hopefully I will call again with my W wanting to work on the M. He hoped so too. However, I sensed that we both know that it is very unlikely and a divorce is more likely.

So basically, since I can handle it, I should stay in Plan A until the end. I should see a lawyer if she files for divorce and I should not prolong it.

Well I didn't feel like there was much hope for my M after talking to Steve (as opposed to the last times I've spoke with him.) However, I did not feel too sad. I guess it is because I do know that I'm trying everything I can and doing the best I can. That is all I can do.

I am sad that my M is coming to an end. But I'm honestly partly excited about the new doors that will open. I'm also scared, but I have learned a lot and continue to do so.

When I first came here I read posts by people who were getting a divorce and were recovery on their own. I thought to myself "I hope I'm not going to become one of those people. My marriage will work out." But now I see that even though I don't want a divorce, I can't stop one. Life goes on so I better learn from this experience and heal. So I'm sad, I wish things were different, but I'm going to be ok, more than ok. I may even be better off.

Well, thanks for listening. I haven't given up all hope, who knows if she filed or not (I'll find out soon)? Who knows when this roller coaster will really end? I'll keep posting until then end I'm sure. And of course, if we do somehow recover our M, I'll definately keep posting.

Take care all. I wish you well. Thanks for reading.
aanast -- I am so sorry I missed your post last Tuesday. I think I was so caught up in my own mess that I wasn't reading as many posts as I usually do.

I'm still flummoxed by how your WW went from last week seeming fairly positive, not mentioning money, divorce, etc. to a week later bringing it up with some urgency. I can only guess that maybe OM is pressuring her.

I am very glad that you got to talk to Steve H. today. It sounds as if you've got a good perspective on the situation. Basically, these things S#$K big time, but you do feel better for having tried and keep on trying if you have love left.

I believe you should still have hope. It ain't over til it's over.

I do mull over in my mind from time to time whether if WH showed up on my doorstep tomorrow and wanted to reconcile -- could I? would I? I think it's healthy to ask these questions of yourself.

Please let us know if your WW goes forward with what she told you last week.
Hello aanast2-

Wow, I read your story and was shocked at the similarities to my situation. In the beginning, my WW's brutal honesty made a clear course of action difficult to follow. However, I hired a PI because of my suspicions of a PA and because of my belief that what she was putting me through (waffling on her feelings about me, refusal to break off contact with OM, etc.) was WRONG. Well, my concerns were warranted but the PI report did succeed in putting the A out in the open, where it apparently died. Unfortunately, I'm guessing that PA part with regards to your WS is not far off if it hasn't happened yet. I made some of the mistakes it sounds like you've managed to avoid but I would caution you to look out for yourself and not continue to put up with her behavior unless you feel pretty certain that things will end up the way YOU envision. Take some time to come up with a logical plan of action then stick with it. Good luck!
Unsureheart- Thanks for replying. I'm sorry that I've been so caught up in my mess too that I haven't posted over on your thread yet. I haven't really posted on anyone's really except my own.

"I'm still flummoxed by how your WW went from last week seeming fairly positive, not mentioning money, divorce, etc. to a week later bringing it up with some urgency. I can only guess that maybe OM is pressuring her."

Yeah it is a bit surprising. I was thinking slowly but surely, baby steps, etc. Now, I'm thinking she just wants to play nice so that the divorce goes smoothly. As for pressure, it could be OM but I'm almost positive it is (also?) a female coworker friend (who is also friends with OM) that has been advising her through all of this almost every step of the way. While I know my WW is an adult who makes her own decisions, I'm pretty sure that this "friend" of hers is advising her.

I had a feeling all of this would happen now because 1) my W is more settled in her apartment (which was her main focus over the summer) and 2) she is back at work with her "friend" and the supportive environment where this all started.

"I believe you should still have hope. It ain't over til it's over."
Thanks. I think you, my mother-in-law, and myself are the only ones on the planet that I know who think there is still a shot.

"I do mull over in my mind from time to time whether if WH showed up on my doorstep tomorrow and wanted to reconcile -- could I? would I? I think it's healthy to ask these questions of yourself. "

Definately. I believe in questioning one's thoughts and actions. Asking those "WHY?" questions about anything (traditions, practices, beliefs, customs, etc) is very important.

In addition to "would I?" or "could I?", my question for myself, if my WW wanted to reconcile, would also be "should I?" A big part of me wants to do the right thing. What is the "right" thing to do? I guess it is debately and not easlily definable.

"Please let us know if your WW goes forward with what she told you last week."

Well, I don't know yet. She called me this evening and left a message on the phone. I didn't answer on purpose. Part of me wants to run far, far away and never answer that call.

Her voice sounded very sweet and pleasant. She asked me to call her when I get a chance and she hopes everything is going well for me.

I did speak briefly with her parents the other day. Her mom said she told them last Sunday that she was going to talk to a lawyer. Her mom then got into a fight with her. Their relationship has been quite strained since all this began.

Basically my WW is telling her parents that she is doing this for herself, independence, etc and not OM. Her parents say that is one thing, but if this is about OM then that is wrong.

Her sister recommended that her mom and my WW get family counselling. My WW said ok so long as they don't talk about me at all. Her mom said that is what their problems are all about.

bwcaw- Thanks for your reply. As of now, if my W file for divorce and/or gets pregnant, then I'm giving up. As for sticking to my own plans and not letting her push my boundaries, that won't come into play until/if we start some kind of recovery.

As for the PA, well, I've known about my WW's PA for some time. For one thing, she told me about it months ago. I also saw them together at the beach. And, she is now for the first time since before we dated, taking birth control pills (something I'm against and have been for 7 years with her.) So, I'm pretty sure there is a PA.

I also have another source from which I know that the A is still going on.

Well, nothing really new. I know I'm just avoiding the inevitable, but I really don't want to answer that call because I know she is going to tell me she filed etc. It is going to upset me. I know I'm running away from it but somehow I just don't want to face it. I'm scared, sad, upset, and hope that somehow I'm still going to wake up from this nightmare. Somehow if I don't answer, maybe she won't file or didn't file or...

ok, ok, I know I need to face her and reality, but it is not easy, and I don't want to. But I will.

I'll keep ya posted.

Here's to hoping for the best!
aanast -- I know how you feel about not taking that call. You want in your heart to postpone what you believe is the call ending your relationship. I had a great deal of trepidation letting my WH come over and talk after d-day #2 before I went to no contact. He started out all "clear" in his head that maybe ending our marriage was the best thing to do, but the more we talked, the more he seemed confused and softened. The next night he wanted to have dinner again and again the next night (to which I said no because I knew I was going to have to go to plan B -- he was becoming a cakeman/still wants both and I just couldn't take it anymore).

So, take that call. You never really know what she's going to say. I think it's good you didn't take it the first time/cause her to wonder. I do think she's getting "advice" (bad I might add) from this friend and OM. I still believe it ain't over til it's over and that until she actually files and then actually proceeds with it, there is still hope.

Stay calm (you've done great at that so far) and be open to what she has to say. My guess is that she's still confused and when she calls she may have one thing in mind, but may not be able to go through with it. I've also noticed that it seems harder for her to be "firm" when she sees you in person. Is there anyway when she calls for you to say that you don't have time to talk right now, but that you would appreciate it if the two of you could talk in person in the next few days?

Stay strong. Stay calm. Go read going crazy's post over on GQII if you want to hear about hope after a long and drawn out A and waffling.
unsureheart- Thanks (as always) for your reply.

How are you doing with Plan B? From what I've read here, it is often very hard for the BS in the beginning (not to mention also shocking to WS who can get angry at first too.) I'm glad your still posting. It seems that Spacecase disappeared after his Plan B.

"I still believe it ain't over til it's over and that until she actually files and then actually proceeds with it, there is still hope."
True. I do have hope. I'm going to have to call her back I think. I don't think she'll call me again unless I don't call her back (and then she'll say I'm avoiding her etc.. which actually would be true <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

I'm a bit of a procrastinator at times so I'm not sure when I'm going to call her. No time is really a good time to be honest. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

"My guess is that she's still confused and when she calls she may have one thing in mind, but may not be able to go through with it."
One can hope, but we'll see.

"I've also noticed that it seems harder for her to be "firm" when she sees you in person. Is there anyway when she calls for you to say that you don't have time to talk right now, but that you would appreciate it if the two of you could talk in person in the next few days?"
I like this idea. I think you're right. Somehow the more she sees me in person, the harder it is for her to hurt me and the closer she gets with me.

She has been avoiding coming over because of that and because she gets sad when she comes back to our home.

Then when she starts waffling her "friends" ping-pong her back in the other "D"irection. I think I'll try seeing her in person though since I have nothing else to lose.

Perhaps she's calling because she wants to see me in person. What could happen is she may want to serve me with papers if/when we see each other in person.

I guess wondering and thinking about all the possibilities is not going to change anything and I need to face reality.

Thanks for your input. I appreciate it.
brief update-

I called my WW this evening. She asked me how I was doing and I told her not very well at all. She seemed very concerned and asked what is wrong. I told her that this whole situation is terrible, I'm not doing fine, and even though everything else in my life is going great, this is the worst thing that has ever happened to me and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

Basically, her response was oh, I thought something bad happened to you at work or something.

Anyway, I told her that I was returning her call. She basically told me that she saw a lawyer and paid a retainer (or a deposit towards it for $3,500.) She apologized to me for the awkwardness of them going to be serving me papers. I told her that it won't be awkward it will just be awful and sad. She said yeah, yeah you've said that already.

Anyway, she said she was out the door and couldn't talk. She said we should meet sometime and I interjected by saying that is a great idea. She replied by saying no, it is not great, we will be meeting because there is paperwork that we need to work on. She added that her lawyer said that most of the stuff we can decide together without a lawyer so things will go easier/smoother (interestingly, my WW wouldn't say the word divorce, it seemed that she felt awkward and was dancing around it without saying it for most of the conversation.) She also said that all I would have to pay is $105 to file something in response or something.

I told her that I would like to see her and I don't like just talking to her on the phone. She said of course, we'll have to see each other more in the future because of all the paperwork, settlements etc... that we need to do.

I then did my "we shouldn't leave any stones left unturned" plug. I told her that there are things that we haven't looked at together, options that we should look at.

She asked me what options, like counselling? I said yes for one. She said that her lawyer told her that maybe our health insurance could cover it.

My wife reiterated that she would only get counselling to benefit herself. She said this is not easy for her. I told her that counselling and other options that exist out there for us to investigate does not mean she is committing to the marriage but something we should check out together before we take any action. She kept wanting to know what options I'm referring to because she's examined all the options. I didn't really know how to respond.

I told her that I believe that there is still hope for our marriage and I asked her if she thought so. She said no, and that her lawyer asked her the same thing. She also said that she feels that her whole body tells her that there is no hope. She seemed a bit peeved about this whole issue (the options/hope thing). I told her
that I understand that that is how she feels and I'm not trying to disrepect how she feels.

She said that I am disrepecting how she feels by telling her that there ARE other options because she believes there is no hope. I apologized, told her I didn't mean to disrepect what she was saying, and asked her to let me rephrase what I was saying. I summarized what she told me about her feelings. I then said that I disagree with her opinion.

She said she knows how I feel, that we disagree, and that we are at a stalemate. She asked me what she wanted me to do. She said she knows I'm in pain but she said "what am I just supposed to do? Come back and everything will be alright?" I said no, you're not supposed to just come back and we pretend nothing ever happened. I said there are things we need to explore, steps we need to take. She basically said yeah, yeah, yeah and didn't want to hear it.

Overall it was a short, somewhat confrontational conversation.

My questions are:

1. I guess she is not going to serve me with divorce papers personally. Does that mean that I will be served at work or home by some process server or sheriff or something? I guess I could ask her. I mean at this point does it really matter who serves it? I guess not, I guess I thoguht she would personally. I guess I'm just wondering if someone's going to show up at the high school I teach at. No one there knows my situation (which is awkward for me when people ask how my wife is doing.) I still don't know how/what I'm going to do with that whole thing (if I do get divorced.)

2. Her comment about counselling has me wondering. I know she mentioned it would be just for herself to make herself feel better. Perhaps I will try (again) to get her to talk with Steve (if she thinks it is all paid for since money is her #1 concern, she may be more willing.) hmmm?

3. If/as this progresses (i.e. divorce), how am I supposed to act? Just because I can Plan A, should I? I know Steve told me Plan B is only for if/when my pain is too much (and too risky because I don't have kids) and I should keep up with Plan A, does that mean I should for my M? When do I say, you know what aanast2, nothing can save your M, you've done plenty of Plan A for you M what about something for just you. Part of my wants to Plan B because part of me doesn't ever want to see WW again. Again, mixed emotions mixed with guilt.

I also know that if I Plan B NOW, she will be extremely pissed and consider it as me being manipulative because it will cost her more attorney's fees since I won't communicate with her. At what point do I stop working for my M and work for me as a single guy?

When she files, do I try to fight for what I can get (financially)? I'm not going to try to delay the divorce but if I know the M is going to be over no matter what, I don't think I should just let her take whatever. I know I'm sounding selfish but I've been wondering about what point I accept that it is over and defend myself so I at least get what I deserve.

I read awhile back on some website about divorce and the stages one goes through. It said somewhere on there that when the marriage is coming to an end, both spouses get greedy (try to hide money in accounts, etc...) I'm feeling guilty that I'm even thinking about myself as an individual and not as a married person. So when do I make the move to fight for myself financially during this (possible) upcoming divorce?

I'm not sure I'm being clear. I don't want a divorce (in fact part of me wonders/doubts/thinks that maybe I'm not fighting for my M because I love my W or because of commitment or because it is just better to be married, but because I don't like divorce, don't want to be considered divorced, always promised myself I'd never get divorced because my parents were... It is probably all these reasons and more but I ponder sometimes. This is a whole other issue.)

Anyway, I realize that the moment I don't cooperate with my WW in any part of the divorce it will be yet another LB and yet another nail in the coffin. For emotional recovery and healing in the future, it will help me as an individual to know that up until the very end I literally did everything I can.

So, if I don't do that (doormat) up until the very end (i.e. I LB by disagreeing with some terms of divorce) does that mean I'll have less emotional recovery/baggage afterwards?

Or will I kick myself later for letting her get away with my share of the equity in the home etc. (I feel so guilty even saying "my share", I'm sounding like my WW!)

I'm not sure I'm being eloquent enough on this issue.

Basically I'm pondering my recovery after a divorce. What (if there is one) is the relationship between emotional recovery vs. financial recovery based on actions I take prior to the divorce.

On one hand I can fight for more money, get more money and feel regret/guilt when I'm divorced that I didn't Plan A until the end and/or didn't do EVERY SINGLE THING possible to save my M.

On the other hand if I do not fight her on anythign with the divorce, I may end up with less $$$ (something I can always earn again) but have less regret and be further along with recovering and healing from this traumatic event in my life (knowing I really did do everything up until the end.)

Any comments?
I have been through a D; so I know how you feel.

I think you should start looking after yourself on the day you are served with divorce papers.

I think the lawyer will have someone in his office serve the papers to you. You could ask your W that any papers not be sent to work, as you want to keep your work life as separate from the mess as possible. You could mention jokingly that you don't want to get laid off. She has an interest in this, because of financial support issues being hammered out. It might be helpful to let a trusted person in your immeiate management structure know about the difficult time you are going to have in advance if you feel that your work will be affected; that way they will know it is just a temporary phase and can offer you whatever help they can.

I have a feeling that, since the OM is not well off, they might try to get the maximum money out of you. I feel that you would feel better with yourself if you neither give her too much, nor give too little - but aim for what you think is her fair share. That way you will feel good about having been fair; but will not feel guilty for having cheated her, nor feel cheated and walked all over for having let her take too much. She will respect you for this.

I suggest you reach out to your family or a close friend whom you can call any time when you feel in despair. Either that or seek out weekly individual C for yourself to get through this period, not necessarily MB. Sometimes work provides free counselling as part of an employee renumeration program. You need not tell anyone about C.

- relate

<small>[ October 19, 2002, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: relate ]</small>
Thanks for your reply relate. You've given me some good advice and input.

Nothing really new to report with me. My WW called the other day (I saw on caller id) but did not leave a message on the answering machine. I was not home.

Her sister also invited me out to the family dinner for their parents' wedding anniversary but I was out of town. I'm not sure I would have gone because of the pain of seeing my WW and the possibility of her serving me with papers. I guess I would/should have gone to keep up with my Plan A.

Some recent discoveries:

I did a bit of snooping and found that A is still going strong. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I also found out that she actually did talk to an divorce attorney/mediator person on Oct 14th. (I was hoping it was just "talk") <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
Hi Aanast2,

I read the beginning and end of your story. I do recall your situation and apologize for not keeping up with it in detail. I am sorry where you are but I see some red flags out there regarding your W.

1. She is still very selfish -
a. wanting counseling only for herself.
b. wanting to work out her side without you
having proper representation.

2. She is insulting to your character by:
a. saying you are faking your improvements
b. insinuating that you even may be turning
her family against her?
c. she waits for you to make a statement or
even agree with her and then she does
a 180.

3. You need to watch out that there isn't a plan to take you to the cleaners. Keep your eyes open, this is very likely. I am not sure what state you live in but in CA, it would be easy for her to do so. Do you have a lawyer?

Based on the above, plan A is NOT good for you. IMHO anyways. You need to identify your boundaries and stick to plan B.

Get a lawyer, put everything in writing. Never give her the benefit of any doubt. Assume that she is plotting against you - so that you are prepared. Be strategtic in your dealings with her.

My next suggestion is to learn how to reverse babble. Can't say that is a MB principle but tough love may be what you need to implement. Please read Love must be tough by Dr James Dobson. Good book.

Wayward women are a dangerous group. Women in general tend to get pretty nasty when put in a corner. Her A has taken her to that corner and you are her primary target.

Remove yourself as that target. Use reverse babble as a shield to deflect her cutting words and make them bounce back on her.


W: I need counseling only for me.
BS: You certainly do. Go get it.

W: Your changes are good but fake.
BS: No as fake as yours.

W: You are turning everyone against me.
BS: Yes you are.

W: OM reminds me of you .
BS: No, I am much better than he. But you can have him.

What do these statements show? They do NOT show the real pain you feel but they do deflect it back to the WS. These statements may confuse the WS. That is ok, that is the intent. You see the WS in their A babble confusion, says they don't mean to hurt and then stab with the sharpest instrument at their disposal. We need to let them know that we see their tactics. I have even told my WS to stop babbling because 1. he isn't making sense and I refuse to have a conversation with a babbler. 2. He can come back when he is speaking clear english. LOL!!!

take care,
Hi Aanast2:

Sorry I missed your post for a long time ... I figure since you have a lot of reply you got a lot of help already. I try to find my niche to help out BS w/ 0 reply on their post. You did have a lot of help actually, I probably only confirming what everybody already told you.

I guess you read my post to Alan. Your situation is different than him. In his case the OM is fading out of the picture and WW issues is only him. He can not stop plan A'ng now and even he has to show it more to her. Shower her w/ attentions and fillin all ENs that she allows him to fill in. In your case, you had been doing plan A for about 5 months now and has no impact ... i.e she even filed and there is more disrespect to M and you. You have a cake eater on your hand and like Orchid says, this kind of WW is a very dangerous kind. You have the chance last time when she was moving back and you took her back w/o ammends. In MB you should go to plan B when she is continuing her A after she made up her mind to go home. Otherwise she knows that she could go back anytime she wants it and you providing her a safety net while she is planning her way w/ OM. You are enabeling her A.

You should console w/ Harley right away, to help you out the next step.

IMVHO, I agree with Orchid ... she was training her H to be a cake eater w/ multiple false start until she cut it off. In her situation it works since OW is not ready to take H and pressure start comming on their relationship. OW didn't come through w/ her words and the A crumbled. Your situation is similiar to hers that is OM is not ready yet to take your WW. Your WW's tries to figure out how to prolong the A and live out from you ... watch out !!!. She will take you to the cleaner for OM. My WW's is similiar and I have to protect my self. Our WW are addicted to their OM. You have to stop enabling her A. How ?. It look like you could control yourself well and you posted that you was a neglectfull H. Plan B is no good, specially with Dv is comming. You have to stop enabling her A and read enablement on my sig. You have to do tough love and talk to the fog. Orchid could guide you w/ specific Q&A. Seek a lawyer right now and see how much is SS if you have to pay her and financial & legal advice. Don't get desparate, my WW talked to her lawyer around September'01 and my WW not filed it until March'02. It is actually good that she talked to her lawyer, now she is facing a bit reality. Do you know how much $ she is getting for SS ?, is it more than what you gave her ?, Could it be that she is thinking that your asset is the best way to prolong her A w/ OM ?. My WW does and I have to "gave up" my career to protect myself financially.

Use tough love but still ... NO LB'ed.

Orchid- thanks for your reply.
"I read the beginning and end of your story. I do recall your situation and apologize for not keeping up with it in detail. I am sorry where you are but I see some red flags out there regarding your W. "
Thanks for popping in, I love all the comments I can get.

"1. She is still very selfish -
2. She is insulting to your character
3. You need to watch out that there isn't a plan to take you to the cleaners. Keep your eyes open, this is very likely. I am not sure what state you live in but in CA, it would be easy for her to do so. Do you have a lawyer? "

You're right about all three. I have been expecting the worst. I can almost see her faking coming back or going to counselling if it meant more money for her. I live in Chicago. I don't have a lawyer but could very easily. I'm just waiting for her to follow through with what she has been saying.

"Based on the above, plan A is NOT good for you. IMHO anyways. You need to identify your boundaries and stick to plan B. "

I appreciate your humble opinion. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I'm not in Plan B. I'm currently sticking with Plan A because Steve Harley advises that I should. I think his reasoning is as follows:
1. Plan B is too risky
2. it is even more risky with no kids
3. I can continue with Plan A. I'm not in extreme pain or on the verge of LBing. I think this is one of the main reasons he has (probably because he senses that it is not going to work out either and wants me to look back without regret knowing I did all I could.)

"Get a lawyer, put everything in writing. Never give her the benefit of any doubt. Assume that she is plotting against you - so that you are prepared. Be strategtic in your dealings with her. "
Absolutely, if/when that time comes I will definately do that.

"My next suggestion is to learn how to reverse babble. Can't say that is a MB principle but tough love may be what you need to implement. Please read Love must be tough by Dr James Dobson. Good book. "
I haven't read it but heard a lot about it. At this stage do you think it could save my M?
My WW is looking for anything I do to be an justification/excuse for her divorcing me (leaving me for OM.) Won't she just interpret anything besides my Plan A (such as Plan B or tough love) as a LB?

W: I need counseling only for me.
BS: You certainly do. Go get it.
W: Your changes are good but fake.
BS: No as fake as yours.
W: You are turning everyone against me.
BS: Yes you are.
W: OM reminds me of you .
BS: No, I am much better than he. But you can have him. "
I've never tried anything like that with her. However, I would think that she'll just get insulted and it'll be an LB. Plus the last one is almost like I'm giving her permission or my blessing.

redhat, thanks for your reply.

"In your case, you had been doing plan A for about 5 months now and has no impact ... i.e she even filed and there is more disrespect to M and you."
well, she was only living with me the first month of those, since then it is harder to Plan A because I barely ever see her. As for no impact, you're right. She rejects the changes, thinks of our M as being over a long time ago, and is still with OM.

However, I think the times we have spoken it has been very pleasant/friendly. So she is not disrespecting the M even more. She is doing equally to way back when.

"You have the chance last time when she was moving back and you took her back w/o ammends. In MB you should go to plan B when she is continuing her A after she made up her mind to go home. Otherwise she knows that she could go back anytime she wants it and you providing her a safety net while she is planning her way w/ OM. You are enabeling her A."

I understand. When I first took her back, it was only after a month of hell and her going back and forth. Plus, as far as I knew at the time, she hadn't acted on or told OM her feelings. So, I was trying to be the best husband I could be when I happen to see her.

and I didn't know what MB was etc. I know it seems like enabling, but I was preparing myself to show her 6 months of Plan A while she was living with me.

"You should console w/ Harley right away, to help you out the next step."

I have. He said Plan A (see above and other posts)
Use tough love but still ... NO LB'ed.

interesting comments on the reverse babble thing. I'm going to have to think about it and discuss it moe with you guys here (make sure I understand it.)

brief update-
WW called and left a message on the machine. She had stopped by to pick up winter coat and shoes. She was just letting me know and mentioned how cold it is lately. She also said she wants to meet with me sometime this week so we can "figure out/take care of some things."

Then, as she was hanging up, she asked how my weekend was, specifically my sister (since she just remembered to aske me about it.) It seemed sorta an afterthought.

I'm going to continue with Plan A. Steve Harley said delaying the divorce will just make her think I'm controlling her.

I will draw the line and will also make sure a lawyer sees everything before I do anything.

for now I gotta crazh. I'm exhausted and actually falling asleep at the monitor reading this.

You have to be honest with SH. His job is saving M ... as long as you have a bit of energy left in you, he will push you to stay in plan A. For MB, plan B is a last resort.

I understand very well what you mean by "regret". I gave my best and it is not enough but now I have no guilt and ready to move on. However, please protect yourself !. Consult w/ lawyer not for Dv but understanding what is your right.

Ask SH about "reverse babbled" next time you talk to him. I am interested to know his answer. Rememeber you still have to stay clear from LB'ed ... Basically, we try to say "I love you but I hate your actions". Talk back to the fog back w/ love and care. Based on your posts I think you could do it and control your emotion.

"You have to be honest with SH. His job is saving M ... as long as you have a bit of energy left in you, he will push you to stay in plan A. For MB, plan B is a last resort."

true, true. And that is what I want. I want to save the M and know that is his thing. Ultimately, if the M dies, I'll be better off as an individual knowing that I didn't give up and tried my best. For me, I'd feel better with this in the long term (despite any anguish I'm in now - granted if she doesn't divorce me I wouldn't stay in Plan A forever...I'd eventually go to Plan B when I couldn't take it and then eventually divorce her.)

"I understand very well what you mean by "regret". I gave my best and it is not enough but now I have no guilt and ready to move on. However, please protect yourself !. Consult w/ lawyer not for Dv but understanding what is your right."

I hear you loud and clear. When the time comes, I will most definately consult with a lawyer for information at the very least. I definately don't want to be screwed over financially by my WW and will make sure that it doesn't happen.

"Ask SH about "reverse babbled" next time you talk to him. I am interested to know his answer."
I will if I ever do. I highly doubt I ever will speak to him again. Only because I highly doubt things are going to get better in my M (i.e. my WW coming around, out of fog, cosidering counselling, ending A, etc...) But if they do get slightly better (baby steps) I'll call him and I will ask.

"Rememeber you still have to stay clear from LB'ed ... Basically, we try to say "I love you but I hate your actions". Talk back to the fog back w/ love and care. Based on your posts I think you could do it and control your emotion."

gotcha. That makes it more clear. I think I can do it and will try it.

brief update again-

I happened to stumble across some more info. (sorta "accidental" snooping) Anyway, it turns out my WW has charged some plane tickets for her and OM for Mexico (where he grew up) and paid $165 to the attorneys on Oct 14th (I know the name and # of the firm too.)

This information doesn't make me feel better, nor does it help my M. It does tell me that the A is going strong and that my wife did see/speak with an attorney and probably did file for divorce (or whatever the initial consultation is.)

A memory I keep having is when I asked my WW 2 weeks ago whether she had hope. And she responded by saying that her attorney asked her the same thing and she confidently said "NO."

Sometimes I wonder if I'm (and all BS who want to save their M) are complete idiots. That we need to wake up and realize that it is over and we should move on. I guess since we don't, this Plan A is a process by which we eventually learn.

My concern about not getting screwed over financially by WW in a divorce lately has been coupled with an occasional greedy/vindicitive side that wants to screw over my WW financially. Just emotions followed guilt and a swirly mix of madness. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I also wonder if filing for divorce has advantages for not get screwed over by WW.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by aanast2:
<strong>I happened to stumble across some more info. (sorta "accidental" snooping) Anyway, it turns out my WW has charged some plane tickets for her and OM for Mexico (where he grew up) and paid $165 to the attorneys on Oct 14th (I know the name and # of the firm too.)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is way more than $165 to file ... most likely she paid for consultation ... when retainer is paid then you know you are going to get served very soon.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Sometimes I wonder if I'm (and all BS who want to save their M) are complete idiots. That we need to wake up and realize that it is over and we should move on. I guess since we don't, this Plan A is a process by which we eventually learn.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Which pill do you choose, blue pill to live in denial or red pill to wake up and live, love & learn ? (the matrix). When WS rejects BS's plan A and continue w/ their A, we do it for us. To make sure that no stone unturn and live guilt free when Dv is unavoidable.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> ...I also wonder if filing for divorce has advantages for not get screwed over by WW.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Depend on which states you live. One more reason to seek consultation w/ lawyer ASAP.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My concern about not getting screwed over financially by WW in a divorce lately has been coupled with an occasional greedy/vindicitive side that wants to screw over my WW financially. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are now revealing a chilling side of you why she does not want to be with you, to put it in a language at a very low and stupid level of abstraction.

Start something like Chess, Bhudhism, ... Start the University System degree in Mathematics. Show your superior intellect; the OM is a mere idiotic and dim copycat.

<small>[ October 31, 2002, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: relate ]</small>
aanast -- Sorry I've been away. I had a work conference and then found out this week that my father is having a fifth surgery related to his arteries, heart, etc. I'm pretty drained.

My thoughts about your current situation. First (and unfortunately) you do need to protect yourself by getting your own consultation with an attorney to find out what your rights are, etc so that you are mentally prepared for what may come from your WW. Second, I know SH says going to plan B is risky and I'm in that right now and can't say it's any picnic, BUT I can say that it has removed SOME of the pain in that I don't have to hear from WH all the time about what is and isn't right. Since your WW isn't contacting you much anyway, I'm not sure what plan B does for you. If you still have patience, then I suppose you can stay in plan A, but think hard about whether you feel that is enabling the continuation of the A.

How are YOU? What are you feeling right now? Do you feel prepared for what you will do if WW serves you?

The $165 dollars is definitely for a consultation -- that's about the cost of one hour of a good attorney's time (and probably not a really good attorney because that would cost $250 plus per hour in a big metro area like Chicago).

I have a meeting for a consultation tomorrow just to understand the process and my rights. I have no intention of filing (and seriously doubt my WH has taken that step), but I want to be prepared.

After everything you have been through, I would hate for your WW's selfishness to be the vehicle for hurting you financially, but the depths of depraved behavior on the part of WS has continually surprised me.

Hang in there.
redhat- thanks again for your reply.

"It is way more than $165 to file ... most likely she paid for consultation ... when retainer is paid then you know you are going to get served very soon."

Ok, that is good to know. So I'm guessing my WW wants to talk to me to go over some paperwork/agreements of some kind (that she got from the $165 meeting) before she files.

"Which pill do you choose, blue pill to live in denial or red pill to wake up and live, love & learn ? (the matrix). When WS rejects BS's plan A and continue w/ their A, we do it for us. To make sure that no stone unturn and live guilt free when Dv is unavoidable."

I'm a Matrix fan. I hear what you are saying. I definately prefer reality, in the long run, as painful as it is. I guess living guilt free with a divorce is the lesser of two evils (i.e. better than a divorce with guilt!)

relate - thanks again for your reply.

"You are now revealing a chilling side of you why she does not want to be with you, to put it in a language at a very low and stupid level of abstraction."

I never thought of it that way (having a "chillling side.") I'm not going to let my anger, frustration, or thoughts of revenge or retribution control me, but honestly I was venting here with that post and do feel that way. I'm not going to let my actions be based on those feelings but honestly, I have felt them from time to time.

"Start something like Chess, Bhudhism, ... Start the University System degree in Mathematics. Show your superior intellect; the OM is a mere idiotic and dim copycat."

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I do play chess here and there but prefer other intellectual, nerdy games. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Maybe someday I'll study Bhudhism but I'll just pass on Mathematics (I had enough with AP Calculus in high school). I'm an English Teacher. Thanks though for the ideas. I think I'd rather show some physical superiority but I have to work on gaining some muscle mass. Currently, I'm 6'1 @ 180 lbs.

unsureheart - thanks, as always, for your reply and continued support.

"Sorry I've been away. I had a work conference and then found out this week that my father is having a fifth surgery related to his arteries, heart, etc. I'm pretty drained."

Is he going ok? I'm sorry to hear this. You must be drained. However, I'm glad to see you're still posting and still going strong.

"My thoughts about your current situation. First (and unfortunately) you do need to protect yourself by getting your own consultation with an attorney to find out what your rights are, etc so that you are mentally prepared for what may come from your WW."

I definately plan on going to an attorney if/when my WW gives me papers, files, serves or whatever. I'm not sure how it will help me if I go before then.

You mentioned "mentally prepared" but I'm not sure what you mean. I'm the type of guy who likes to hypothesize all kinds of possibilities (about all kinds of things.)

So I can imagine my WW wanting everything and accusing me of everything in the book. If that is the case (or whatever the case) I plan on taking that paper and bringing it straight to a lawyer to disect.

Somehow going now seems like I'm giving up (even if it is just to get information for my protection.) I know that is stupid.

I spoke with a lawyer once a few months back and he said I should file first. ( Steve Harley agreed with me that most lawyers advise people to file.)

I told the lawyer that I didn't want a divorce and he said I should still file first and I could drag it out for years and then drop the whole thing and let her then file if I wanted to. Talk about ridiculous.

Anyway, besides telling me to file first, I don't know what a lawyer could tell me that would help me prior to my WW filing. I guess I should talk to one to find out just in case. You're right, it wouldn't hurt just to find out info.

"Second, I know SH says going to plan B is risky and I'm in that right now and can't say it's any picnic, BUT I can say that it has removed SOME of the pain in that I don't have to hear from WH all the time about what is and isn't right. Since your WW isn't contacting you much anyway, I'm not sure what plan B does for you. If you still have patience, then I suppose you can stay in plan A, but think hard about whether you feel that is enabling the continuation of the A."

I'm glad you are doing better. Plan B is working for you.

You're right though, I don't think Plan B would do anything for me. I'm rarely in contact with my WW so... I have thought about Plan A enabling her A, but I don't think it is. But then again, who knows. I think a Plan B would make her say/think "oh, see, his true colors are finally showing, his changes were fake, he wants nothing to do with me, in fact he is just trying to make the divorce harder on both of us."

Eventually though, if she does not file, I will go to Plan B.

"How are YOU? What are you feeling right now? Do you feel prepared for what you will do if WW serves you?"

I'm ok. I sigh from time to time when I think of my WW or this whole mess. My brain still races every now and then thinking of other things I could try.

Some specific things I haven't tried are:

-telling OM that he is ruining my M and/or asking him to stop seeing my WW, ha! like that would do anything, I'm sure he'd just laugh at me or tell me he loves my WW. Then I'd resort to violence which is a no-no.

-talking to their boss, the principal at the school where my WW teaches, and asking him to help me or my M or something. I guess it would shed more light on their A but her coworkers all probably already know (since my WW told me back in Mar/April that she told her principal that she was getting a divorce.) If I do speak with the principal, she'll probably just get angry and file (if she hasn't already.)

Anyway, back to your question, I'm feeling like I'm getting used to be all alone in my house. Sometimes I think it would be very strange to have my WW here actually. It is weird to imagine someone else in the "building" in a way.

I'm kinda forgetting what it was like (since most of her things are gone - although I still stumble across little decorative house things here and there that I never noticed before which makes me think about WW as well as wonder why the hell I never noticed those things before.)

At this point, I would still take my WW back if she wanted to work on M. I would hope that feelings of love and trust would return for me and for her through a process over time. But, honestly, I'm also thinking about what the single life will be like for me. I'm sad & lonely somtimes, scared, but also very excited at a new chapter in my life.

I think what has got me through this far is my belief in M and commitment more so than feelings of love for my WW. I hope things do work out for us. I still have hope.

Howabout you?

As for your other question, if my WW serves me, I not LB. I will go straight to an attorney with the paperwork. I'm not going to fight it but I may (depending on the terms) have to look out for my own interests. I will be fair.

"I have a meeting for a consultation tomorrow just to understand the process and my rights. I have no intention of filing (and seriously doubt my WH has taken that step), but I want to be prepared."

Please tell me what you have learned. As I said, I may do the same thing, but I would love to know what you've found out (granted our states are different.)

"After everything you have been through, I would hate for your WW's selfishness to be the vehicle for hurting you financially, but the depths of depraved behavior on the part of WS has continually surprised me. Hang in there."

Thank you for your kind words and support.

Whatever happens, I'll be ok financially. If I lose it all, I'll still be ok. I don't want to lose it all <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , but there was a time when I didn't have any of it. I can always rebuild. I have a career going, I can always make more money and start anew.

One other thought I've had recently is about love. I understand the beliefs of MB and SH and it being conditional and all, but I was just thinking about true love (if there is such a thing.) Anyway, I was looking back at my M, and dating my W, and our love. I started to think that perhaps I didn't really REALLY love her (have true love?) because if I did that I would have met her ENs and not neglected her (and I've been in denial about my not really REALLY loving her.) And if she truly loved me, the A would not have happened. Maybe things aren't meant to be etc. Just a random thought that I feel like venting here.

<small>[ November 04, 2002, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: aanast2 ]</small>
brief update:

I "stumbled across" some more info regarding my WW and the lawyer.

They spoke about a "petition" and "verification by certification" that my WW is mailing the attorney.

She also will be filing out an "Asset Disclosure Statement" now "in case it is needed."

The attorney has also asked her if she has met with me yet about a possible settlement and made a list of my assets to start a discussion with me.

My WW has not contacted me.

I think I'll be chatting with a lawyer soon regardless since I don't know what any of those terms mean.

Dont' want to say I told you so but BS has to seek lawyer to consult !. "Petition" meaning she is the one filing and you will be called respondent. Dunno about "verification by certification". "Asset Disclosure Statement" is basically list of all your asset & debt, in CA we call it SAD (schedule Asset & Debt). Your W's laywer basically doing prep-work for filing, this is normal, they always ask for it. Your WW will call you once you are served. I would not talk to her w/o a representation. Just listen to her proposal and compare it w/ what your lawyer told you what you have to cough out by the law. Never agree to anything w/ consult w/ your lawyer ... specially signing anything.

I would get organized now. Go to local court house and get the form for asset & debt list and expense & income. Fill it out and plus has all the document to back it up. When you meet with your layer have it ready. I don't know which states you are living, in CA, the asset division is pretty dry, pulg in the number to a program (3 diff ones but all almost have the same $, diff cour house use a diff one), it will tell you spousal support & child support.

I would also call SH get his advice on if you need to prolong this Dv if it comes to it. Some states you could drag it very long.

This divorce case, if she files, will be all about getting as much money out of you for the two of them. I won't blame you if you tighten the purse strings as much as you can. I can understand your personally tightening your finances immediately without letting her know. Prolonging the divorce will do you no good whether you wish to reconcile or part: it will be a huge LB if you wish to reconcile - she would see you as a control freak; a huge waste of time and money if you part.

<small>[ November 07, 2002, 05:05 AM: Message edited by: relate ]</small>
aanast -- I just wanted to check in. I am so sorry you came across this information, but do think you need to find out what you can about your options and your rights. I did. It doesn't make me feel better about a D, but at least I know what the process is and the terms.

Oh, I was so sad when I read your post about maybe you didn't love your WW or the A wouldn't have happened/you would have done a better job of meeting her needs. Listen, we all could have done a better job. For that matter, our WS's could have done a better job, but that does not mean you didn't love her or that you are not capable of it. I refuse to believe that. That is the kind of stuff the WS says "gee, I think maybe we never really loved eachother or we didn't really fit". You have a strong love or you would not have endured what you have in your plan A. Is it perfect? No, but none of us is perfect.

I hope you are feeling ok otherwise. I went running this morning and it really did help me not feel so sad. I may be headed for a D, but I'm trying hard not to obsess about it.

You said you are a teacher. What grade do you teach? What do you like about teaching? My mom was a teacher and I've always wondered whether that was something I would enjoy. I imagine that teachers need to have incredible patience. Something you've exhibited throughout this experience.

Take care of yourself. I will be thinking of you. Have you read H's post on GQII (it's an oldie but a goodie). I think it's really helpful to read that when you are feeling the way you appear to be right now.
brief update- According to my caller-id, my WW has called a few times this week but she has not left any messages. I've been busy with parent-teacher conferences (report card night) so I haven't been home.

redhat, thanks for your reply, advice, and answers to my questions.

"Dont' want to say I told you so but BS has to seek lawyer to consult !"

You're right. I will very, very soon.

"I would also call SH get his advice on if you need to prolong this Dv if it comes to it. Some states you could drag it very long."

He said "Do not prolong it. If I had kids, then I could say that I'm prolonging it for their sake. But in my case I should not." He put it exactly as relate put it: it will be a big "control" LB.

relate, thanks for your comments and advice:

"This divorce case, if she files, will be all about getting as much money out of you for the two of them. I won't blame you if you tighten the purse strings as much as you can."

I know I have to look out for myself and my own future (including financially.) I want to be fair also. I don't want to look back and feel guilt that I cheated her out of money that she deserved and work hard for too. At the same time, I don't want to be screwed over either.

I did some research online. I believe that in Illiniois, martial (mis) behavior can be grounds for divorce but is not considered for dividing up assets/property.

unsureheart- reading your replies is always uplifting. Thank you, thank you, thank you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

"Oh, I was so sad when I read your post about maybe you didn't love your WW or the A wouldn't have happened/you would have done a better job of meeting her needs. Listen, we all could have done a better job. For that matter, our WS's could have done a better job, but that does not mean you didn't love her or that you are not capable of it. I refuse to believe that. That is the kind of stuff the WS says "gee, I think maybe we never really loved eachother or we didn't really fit". You have a strong love or you would not have endured what you have in your plan A. Is it perfect? No, but none of us is perfect."

You're absolutely right. I think I was just venting or something.

My mind occasionally likes to think about all posibilities on things. I like to philosophize about all those different things, examine different ideas, roads, possibilities. I guess I was just exploring what love really is and considering/hypothesizing.

But, you are right, I did love my wife, I still do love my wife. My love is fleeting perhaps?
Man, this whole thing is so sad. Anyway, I'm not dwelling on it. I agree with what you said; thank you for that.

"I hope you are feeling ok otherwise. I went running this morning and it really did help me not feel so sad. I may be headed for a D, but I'm trying hard not to obsess about it."

That is good to hear. I haven't been doing as much running as I should. My excuse is that I don't like to run alone. I'm probably going to actually join a gym my friend religiously works out at (rather than the occasionally going to work out with him that I have been doing.) I, too, am not obsessing over a D (especially compared to the obsessing I used to do about this whole thing months ago.)

"You said you are a teacher. What grade do you teach? What do you like about teaching? My mom was a teacher and I've always wondered whether that was something I would enjoy. I imagine that teachers need to have incredible patience. Something you've exhibited throughout this experience."

I teach English literature at the high school level. This year I'm teaching freshmen and juniors. I actually don't like teaching, I love it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Why? Too many reasons to list. The number one reason is the students. Helping them learn, seeing the light bulb go off in their head, getting them to think about life issues and debating/discussing their views, opening their minds to ideas they haven't considered, guiding them through those rough teenage years, and, of course, having fun, joking, laughing, making learning fun, story telling, and also trying to be someone they can talk to, listening to what is going on in their life. I'd like to think I'm making a difference in their lives and everyone's future. I could go on and on. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I also get along famously with my coworkers and well as love poetry and literature.

As for patience, thanks for the compliment. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> It actually comes pretty naturally for me. It is really hard for something to bother me/anger me. I'm very easy going I guess. As they say, life is too short not to enjoy it. Many people get very angry about such little things, and when they look back they realize how foolish they were to let something bother them and stress them out. It's not worth it. I don't like stress and I don't really get stressed.

OK, I'll stop patting myself on the back now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Actually, this whole ordeal has pushed me to my limits and past them. It has also put a lot of things about life and love and relationships into perspective.

As Steve Harley put it to me, the amount of learning that one goes through from this experience is huge.

Hope all is well and contiues to get better.
upon further reflection, I think I have just been letting my WW's words get to me. She has said all along that it could never work between us because I just am not capable of loving her the way she needs to be loved (but OM can.) I know that is complete bullsh!t but I guess I couldn't help bu think about it anyway.
Hi aanast,

I have never posted to you before. I am also counseling with SH and in the midst of a plan A. What is also interesting, is that I have my degree in Eng. Lit...and would like nothing better than to be teaching Eng. at the highschool level. It is the place I will go soon....I know it in my heart.

I have been married for twenty years. I have been on this board for a good while now. From your byline, it appears that you have been in a Plan A for seven months. I'm curious about what kind of timeframe you have in mind before moving to Plan B. What does Steve say? Plan A is not meant to be a way of life, or turn you into a doormat. It is meant to end affairs....if it is not working, what are your options? Have you discussed them with Steve?

I hear your pain, and I understand your reflections about your feelings for your wife. It is quite natural to question whether you ever loved her at this point....but I know few people even WILLING to sustain a Plan A for this long with an ongoing affair...much less be able to do it. I have a great deal of respect and admiration for you.

I will do my best to try and digest the rest of this thread and offer suggestions or support when I am able. I have seen miracles here....quite a few in fact. I know that your wife's A has gone beyond the normal time where most affairs end, but affairs are as individual as the people within them. You are taking the high road and I know you will not be sorry.

I agree that you should have a legal consultation to understand the process and what rights you have. Good luck to you. hugs

I was on the same boat like you early this spring. However the NC that my WW imposed on me helps me tremendously. I am able to pick up myself and get ready to move on w/ or /wo my WW. I beleive in that I have done every thing that humanly possible and it is not enough. I proved every single thing that my WW put doubt on me wrong. SH said "He understand my decision" on seeing the Dv through. However he wants me to still open the door if WW turns around before Dv or after Dv. I told SH that I could send her to him before Dv but I would not prolong it or delay it. I would not even talk to her, I would send her to SH. Even if she turns around 1 day before the Dv is finalized, she only has 1 day to work on M. I came to a conclusion that I could make her (anyone) happy again but I don't think she could make me happy. She made me to rebuild my life, finances, career and everything else left of me. I rather rebuild it with someone else new that will cerish, care and protect my love for her. I know how much I am worth and I would never let anyone tell me otherwise.

My freind, like one signature of veteran MB said, pain is given but misery is optional. I sensed that SH already telling you to go to plan B, he is the pro and you are paying him to help you out so you should follow it. You are enabeling by continuing plan A. You had said and done everything but WW still rejects you. This is one of the condition to goto plan B. You have to take care of yourself, WW won't and nobody would. IMVHO, use my sig line to test yourself ... it worked for me in the past. Ask yourself this question, if Dv is the result and you make this plan B, knowing what you know now, would you regret it 10 years from now ?. Only you know the answer and do it.

God Blesses you -rh-
Hi starfish, Thanks for your post! Good luck to you in your future (especially with English Lit at the high school level.)

"it appears that you have been in a Plan A for seven months. I'm curious about what kind of timeframe you have in mind before moving to Plan B. What does Steve say? Plan A is not meant to be a way of life, or turn you into a doormat. It is meant to end affairs....if it is not working, what are your options? Have you discussed them with Steve?"

Well, I've been in Plan A for a long time yes but most of that time except for about the first month, my WW and I have been separated. Actually I have not seen her in over a month and haven't spoken to her since she called me around Oct 14th to tell me she spoke to a lawyer. So, I wonder if it even counts as another month of Plan A. (I know it is not Plan B.) Anyway, I don't have a "time frame" per se. I HAVE spoken with Steve about this and my options. So my Plan A ends when the divorce is final I guess unless during the process I need to go to Plan B for myself. If my WW does not go through with the divorce, I will not remain in Plan A indefinately and when the time is right I will go to Plan B and then D if necessary.

"I have a great deal of respect and admiration for you." Thanks. I guess I try to look at it logically. If I stayed in for one month knowing that an A was going on what is another month? How is that different than one month? Now granted I'm not going to wait years but it hasn't been years.

"and offer suggestions or support when I am able." Thanks. cool. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

"Good luck to you. hugs"
thanks, I could use some hugs. It has been waaaaay to long since I received any physical contact with another human being. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

thanks again redhat for your reply.

"However he wants me to still open the door if WW turns around before Dv or after Dv. I told SH that I could send her to him before Dv but I would not prolong it or delay it. I would not even talk to her, I would send her to SH. Even if she turns around 1 day before the Dv is finalized, she only has 1 day to work on M."

So it seems like you are saying you are open to seeing if things could work out if your WW comes around before the divorce and talks to SH. What about after the divorce?

"I sensed that SH already telling you to go to plan B, he is the pro and you are paying him to help you out so you should follow it."
Hmmm... What I spoke to SH, he told me that I should continue with Plan A. Would you explain what you meant by sensing that SH is telling me Plan B? I'm confused. Thanks.

As for an update on my situation, my WW has called multiple times during the week (based on the caller id) but has not left any messages on the machine. When I was home once and was sleepy/sleeping and didn't answer, I did notice that she checks the messages on the machine. I guess she justs wants to catch me when I'm in and not leave a message. I guess I'll call her back when she leaves me a message asking me too.

As for how I feel, hmmm... I've been thinking about divorce a lot more. I'm trying to come to terms with it...acceptance. I wonder when I talk to an attorney for advice, if he recommends I file first, if I will. I wonder if my love for my WW is fading completely and if I'd take her back to work on things if she wanted to. I wonder if I'm better off without her. I know that my feelings are changing and going back and forth and I should therefore not base a "life decision" on them and won't at this juncture.

I also recently read/skimmed Homer McDonald's "Stop Your Divorce!" e-book that someone on here emailed me. Very interesting. Kinda had me laughing actually (the dating part.) Tempting but... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Basically, the point of his method is to be agreeable to everything that WW says (almost a reverse psychology kinda thingy). If she says she wants a divorce, then I should say I agree, absolutely. The more agreeable I am, the harder it'll be for her to divorce me. If in mediation, she says she wants x, y, and z, I should be agreeable and say "yeah, you've absolutely made some great points for me to consider. I'll make sure to go over them specifically with my attorney."

There were some other interesting ideas/examples such as a husband announcing that he was going to file a lawsuit against his WW's mediator for ruining his M just to shake up his WW's support for the D.

The "dating part" is that betrayed husbands should go out and date around. This will get WW to realize that she will lose H and will come around.

I'm not/haven't done any of this but it is interesting to read another perspective on this whole A thing. McDonald seems to guarantee his methods and says they go against most betrayed husband's natural instincts in these situations but they actually work. If anyone is interested in reading it. Let me know your email and I'll email you a copy. You need Adobe Acrobat Reader to read it. My email is

Doing a plan A while separated can often feel like an excersize in futility....but I have seen a couple of people (not many I admit) succeed very well and get their WS back home. Then of course the real work begins.

I spend most of my time on the EN board, but since I restarted a Plan A with Steve, I thought I'd try and put in a little time over here as well with some other folks who are in the same leaky boat as I am. Because I see so little of my husband whose job and other activities keep him away from home so often, I sometimes feel almost like I am doing a separated Plan A as well. I'm not of course, but the opportunities to rebuild my marriage....are very slim.

You mentioned that you hadn't had much contact with your wife for about a month, that sure doesn't give you much opportunity to do much if anything for your marriage. It sounds almost like you are in a modified Plan B instead of an A. Is there some reason that you can't contact her so that you might make a few deposits and make this a real plan A instead? I'm sure the affair makes that just seems like unless you make some kind of contact, you're just spinning your wheels.

Good luck to you....and more hugs!
Hi aanast2.

I too have the Homer McDonald's e-book 'Stop your divorce' and while I tend to agree with most of what he says, I am very much against having the BS dating because the BS's self esteem is so devastated that s/he could easily fall into an A of his/her own and then not want the WS anymore even if the WS is now persuing the BS to come back to the M. This is not to say that there aren't BS's out there that could date other people without falling head over heals for the new OP, but for the most part, it's like juggling crystal balls representing the M to the WS, where if one falls and shatters, there is no way to repair the damage.
starfish- well, honestly, I could be contacting my WW more but when we last spoke it was about paperwork she was filling out for the divorce. Honestly, I've been avoiding taking her call (though I guess I shouldn't) because somehow I feel like I'm avoiding the inevitable. a divorce. I really think that there is nothing that will change my wife's mind at this point. While I know anything is possible, I'm a thoroughly convinced that she will go through with the divorce for sure.

I will keep Plan A though during our "mediation" conversations. So, we will be talking more soon.

She actually called me at work today WHILE I was in the middle of teaching. She's never done that before. I actually couldn't take the call because I was teaching but got a note to call her asap at her classroom. I called there, got no answer, so I called her office and told them to let her know that I called. Later today, she left me another voicemail telling me to call her back in her classroom but when I did she had gone for the day. I'll call her tonight when I get home.

Toomuchcoffeeman, I agree with you. The dating part would be a distraction for the BS to have a clear head and affect the BS enough to not allow the BS to make objective decisions (re: divorce, recovery, contact, etc.) Dating is not what I promised when I made my vows and is my beef (sort to speak) with my WW. I believe she has not made clear headed decisions regarding separation and now divorce because of OM. When I have asked her about it, she has told me basically she can't work on M because of her feelings/relationship with OM and lack of feelings (motivation) for me.

So, anyway, I will keep on trying to the (bitter?) end. I will be agreeable and pleasant and keep on Plan Aing. blah, blah, blah..
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by aanast2:
<strong>thanks again redhat for your reply.

So it seems like you are saying you are open to seeing if things could work out if your WW comes around before the divorce and talks to SH. What about after the divorce?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The Dv is the key for me, get nothing to do with MB. SH told me to leave it open after the Dv. However I told him that she shut the door on me by filing, the Dv will sealed that door forever. I do not beleive in remarriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Hmmm... What I spoke to SH, he told me that I should continue with Plan A. Would you explain what you meant by sensing that SH is telling me Plan B? I'm confused.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was guessing that SH would already told you to plan B, appearently he didn't. At one point I thought SH enjoyed torturing me by telling me to stick on plan A.

redhat- I hear you on the divorce issue. I kinda feel the same way though I'm not 100% sure how I feel. I think that if I get divorced that I'll need sometime to recover and heal. I will want to do the things that I could not do when I was married. I will date around .... who knows.
but if someday she comes around, I don't know what will happen. I'm guessing the door will be shut.

yeah, I know what you mean about SH pushing for more Plan A. The first time he told me I was almost counting on him telling me Plan B and was quite a bit surprised. I think he can sense how much we have left in us to keep up with the plan and so he will keep us in it.

well, I called my WW at her apartment this evening. I left a message on her machine that basically said:

"Hi WW, it's me. I hope everything is ok. I got the message that it was urgent I call you and I tried multiple times at your work with no answer. I just got in and am trying you again. I haven't heard from you in awhile. How is everything? I'd like to talk to you. I have some new and exciting surprises going on in my life that I'd like to share with you. Talk to you soon. bye"

(btw, the new and exciting surprise is that I got lasik plus eye surgery last week with awesome results. I highly recommend it. I'm free from the tyranny of glasses and contacts! yay!)

so anyway, I get a call back from her about 5-10 minutes later. I answer this time.

She says "finally you're home. I was getting worried that something happened to you or that you were trying to avoid me or something."

I told her "no, I've just been busy and I'm out a lot"

She asked "with friends? coworkers? females?"

I said "friends and coworkers and I'm busy working"

She said "alone with any coworkers" I said no but I was playing mysterious a bit I guess and she seemed very interested.

She said "well, I'm glad you're having fun and
doing well"

I said "I'm trying to remain positive. This has been the worst thing that has ever happened to me. But I know things happen for a reason"

She changed the topic of the conversation to how my family was doing etc. She also asked about my plans for Turkey day, Christmas, and New Years. I told her that her parents have invited me to go to their house as usual.

She responded with "what about you visiting your family?" I told her that I would and if she feels uncomfortable with me being with her family that I absolutely understand and agree and won't go to any of the days. She seemed to back track after I said that a bit (kinda like the Homer McDonald example of ..."stop coming to your own defense and have your mate do it for you")

She then basically well it would be "weird" for me to be there with her family because she said "what? are they going to think we are just friends then?" I said, "you're right, I won't go, I can see you're uncomfortable" She then said "no I'm not uncomfortable" so I said "well it won't be weird for me, your family, they are a big part of my life and what would be weird is for me to just eliminate them out of my life."

She said "well I feel the same about your family but I don't go and hang out with them" (I thought to myself "hahaa, you'd be burned at the stake!") but basically I said the same thing "you're right" I agreed with her again and again.

So basically I'm tentatively (depending on how *I* feel) going for christmas to her parents (as I've done for the last 7 years.)

Anyway, my WW overall seemed very pleasant. I believe it is because she wants to keep up the fake "friendliness" because that will aid her mediation and avoid and disagreements so as to save money and have an inexpense divorce.

She didn't mention divorce or going over paperwork or assets. She only asked me about about our joint checking/savings account (switching it to only my name - not having a joint account.) And switching titles on our cars. She reiterated that she wants everything to be separate. I agreeingly said, those are some good points.

I will be talking with a lawyer soon (I got the phone number of a top notch one) and of course will get advice before I make any financial changes.

For most of the rest of the conversation, she played a guessing game as to what my "surprises" were. I told her she'd have to see the surprise because it is THAT big of a deal. She guessed all kinds of things "puppy" "haircut" "tatoo" (she told me she got one!?!) "new car" (I couldn't help but laugh at that one. I told her that I am just breaking even each month paying the mortgage and bills, so there is no way I could afford a new car) "dyed my hair blond" (that would be funny on me! but no <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) "got a girlfriend" "Dr. Phil is over?"

I just told her that I wouldn't tell her and she'd have to see. She said she'd be coming by again one of these days to get some more of her "stuff." I told her that I'd appreciate a call in advance so I don't feel like I've just been burglarized and so I can be here because I'd like to see her.

She asked me if I was still on the Dr. Phil trip. I said no, I told you the name of my doc. She said she forgot. I again told her Steve Harley. I said if you ever want to know what is going on in my head, why I do what I do, if you ever want advice, or even options, he's the one to talk to. She could care less.

She cut the conversation short and ended it first (wished I had but oh well.)

Interstingly though, she was not angry this call. I have to admit that it was nice to hear her voice and know what was going on with her (although come to think of it, I think I did most of the talking.) Still, just talking to her makes me have more hope than all these days without talking to her. It is messed up the power this woman has over me just from the sound of her voice. (that is why I believe in absolutely forever no contact if/when the time comes.)

Despite how nice she seemed on the phone, I have to doubt her sincerity. I think she just wanted to make sure I was still talking to her so everything will go smoothly for her each step of the way.

ah well. another day goes by.

<small>[ November 18, 2002, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: aanast2 ]</small>
aanast -- I went back and read the last three pages of your posts and realized that your wife indicated she was filing for a D/going to have you served papers back in mid-October. Well, here we are in mid-November and I haven't read anything about this actually happening. I think that's a pretty good sign she is confused because my impression from the research I've done is that without children and significant assets (I don't know your financial situation obviously, but am making a guess based on the fact that you're a teacher/maybe it's presumptious of me) that it is not really that complicated to do the initial filing and statement of assets.

I think you handled yourself well in your conversation with her last night. It made her curious. Where do you get this patience? I am never that cool in these conversations (although I'm not having any conversations now in plan B).

I liked your description of teaching. I am sure you are a great teacher.

"I went back and read the last three pages of your posts..."
wow, thanks. I appreciate your continued replies and support. You always seem to say the right things to keep that bit of hope alive in me.

You're right about the divorce talk being a month ago. That was a big blow to me when it happened, it took a lot out of me, and honestly I'm expecting a divorce now as a result. But you do make a point that it could have been over already.

I do think that perhaps there is confusion/guilt/sadness on her part for delaying. However, I think she is being "friendly" more because it makes things smoother and a divorce cheaper if we agree on things.

You're right about the finances. We're both teachers and for the most part live(d) paycheck to paycheck (paying off credit card loans etc).
Honestly, the only "asset" we have is our house. We have a chuck of equity in it since we bought in in 98. She'd want her half of it. I'd probably have to sell our refinance with a cosigner in order to give her it I guess.

"...Where do you get this patience? I am never that cool in these conversations (although I'm not having any conversations now in plan B)."

Hmmm...Thanks for the compliment (I have to again say I love compliments, I need all the ego-boosting I can get since being a BS has caused quite a blow to the self esteem <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> How are things going with Plan B? I'll be over to GQII to find out...

As for the patience, partly I think I natuarly have it. Partly, I feel I have to sort of become an actor or something maybe to not LB. I kinda also think of these points that I read about way back when before I even found Marriage Builders. I was frantically searching the web back around March and came across this site:


I like the list a lot as it seems to jive with MB and the Harleys and Dr. Phil and other stuff I've read.

In being patient with my WW, I think of #8 a lot:

"8. Treat them emotionally like they are married to someone else. Courteous, as a human, who has a right to exist, and upon whom you can make no demands."

but I sometimes have a hard time with #4:

"4. Control your expectations: Reset the expectations to ZERO! Because: The first step into anger is Unmet Expectations. The second step is a lack of emotional response, they not only don't do what you expect, but they don't seem to give a rip either. "

"I liked your description of teaching. I am sure you are a great teacher."

Thanks again. Keep those compliments coming! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm sure you're great at uh...whatever it is you do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

take care. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />
aanast -- How is it going? How was your Thanksgiving? Anything new to report on the home front?
Hi unsureheart,

no news really. I had a nice Thanksgiving with friends and family. My mother-in-law invited me over to spend it with them too but by the time I got home it was too late to make it over there. (My mother-in-law calls me once a week, I guess in hope that I haven't given up hope, and there is still a chance for her daughter.) I did visit them for dinner the following Sunday and saw my WW. I told them all about my lasic plus surgery and they were all attentive. My WW asked why I did it and I told her it was just something I had always been thinking about. She said she always told me to do it but I never did it then. I disagreed with her and told her I don't remember her ever wanting me to have it done (which honestly I don't.) Overall, it was friendly conversation but she seemed awkward and tended to want to avoid me (especially with her family around.) Again, nothing new.

(My situation with my in-laws is a bit unique in that I've been their "son" for most of my life in many ways. Growing up, I spent a lot of time in their house, played with their son. In many ways I was part of the family before I got married to their daughter.)

I also saw her and the family yesterday night for the birthday dinner of my good friend/bro-in-law (her brother.) I arrived first and sat at one end of the table. When she came, she sat at the far side at the other end. She later said her sister told her to sit there or something. She did not say hi to me when she arrived, even though everyone else did. I did smile, laugh, and remained pleasant throughout. I spoke to her briefly about a few things. She was quite most of the dinner.

One interesting little tid bit. On Friday night I was out at a bar with some friends. A friend of mine started chatting with some women at another table. Then two started chatting with me. It turns out that I knew one of them (she used to work for my dentist and clean my teeth) and she (and the 3 others) went to highschool with my WW. Interestingly enough, the one I knew (who was recently divorced) somehow knew/sensed that my W and I were having problems/separated. She told me about how she left her H after 10 months (but knew it was wrong after 2 months of M) and divorced him 6 months after that. She said her counselling helped her file and her H did not want a divorce but it was the best thing she's ever done. She also does not have any contact with her H. She seemed very interested in our situation/knowing details as well as "comforting" me. She wanted to call my W at some point (even though she hasn't spoken to her in a year or two or so.) At one point, she also offered me her phone number but I passed on it. She was also very intoxicated and broke a glass.

Anyway, it just seemed like a small world to run into her. I mentioned it to my WW at dinner last night. My WW seemed very concerned/bewildered about how the woman knew about our situation. She also told me that I should have taken the phone number. I just let that comment bounce off me.

In terms of how I'm feeling. I don't think about my WW very often actually. I'm not in pain (at least like I used to be.) I not going to lie and say I'm over her though. I guess in many ways I'm just waiting for her to file. On principle, I'd give her one chance if she really came around (though I have my boundaries/limits/conditions.)

In the meanwhile, I'm enjoying work, family, and friends. My friends encourage me to move on, etc. I'm not ready though. It is fun to go out and all and have women come on to me (good ego fluffing) but I definately will not be in a "big" long-term relationship for a long time. I will wait until I'm officially divorced and then some.

Another minor dilemma now is my coworkers. None of them know of my situation or even that I'm having marital problems or separation. They casually ask how my W is doing, if I'm bringing her to the holiday party, etc... I just reply fine, and change the subject. It is not a big deal, but I'm concerned that my closer friends there will wonder why I never told them anything if one day I show up without my wedding ring on and when asked tell them I'm divorced (out of the blue from their point of view.) I guess I don't have a problem with them knowing, but at my school gossip travels like wild fire, plus I don't want to have to talk to students about it. Really it is no one's business but my own. Plus, if I do mention it, and things miraculously work out with WW, then it is just another group of people to face who "know." Actually, this whole issue doesn't bother me/come up much. It is just when I want to hang out with coworkers outside of work that I think it might seem odd to them that I never bring my W and perhaps they even may think that I'm the bad H or cheating H.

Ah well. It'll all work out. It always does for me.

Life goes on for me. Maybe with my WW though I doubt it. But it goes on for me and I'm almost beginning to feel truly happy again even though I'm alone. I'm enjoying life and what it has to offer. I'm thankful for my health, friends, and family. I'm thankful for redeveloping friendships that had gone along the wayside in recent years. I'm closer with friends and family. I enjoy my work more than ever. And although, I'm alone and lonely at times as well as have other needs not being met <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , I know I don't need others to be happy (but someday that'll be nice too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) So I wait, but not cooped up all alone in my house, I wait but live life and try to have fun.

OK, after that long spiel, how is everything with you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
aanast -- I know it's tempting to take the phone number, but I'm glad you didn't. I find it very foggy that your WW thought you should have and it's an indicator that she's still deep in la-la land.

It doesn't sound as if she's actually filed for a D. I was relieved to read that (or not read that as is the case).

Have you had any conversations outside the brief communications at family gatherings?

I know what you mean about co-workers. It is especailly difficult during the holidays. All of these work-related parties and everyone asking how's WS? Good thing I try and limit my drinking at work-related events or it might slip out as "How's Ws" me: "Who knows?" or "Ask his girlfriend" or "He was abducted by aliens, thanks for asking".

It's hard not to have your needs met for a long time. I feel like some kind of religious zealot in a hair shirt or nun some days (not that being religious is bad, it's just that I didn't sign up for this particular form of celibacy and self-deprivation/no needs being met).

Take care. Enjoy your family and friends. That is the best medicine over the holidays.
Hey unsureheart,

Your reply absolutely hits the nail on the head on how I feel. I'm resisting temptation and trying not to put myself in the situation, but it is hard. The taker wants to take over. And as for coworkers, it is the same too. I liked your responses, it would be funny to use on of those but more trouble than it is worth in the long run. I guess it is weird for me knowing that if/when I do get divorced, it'll seem like a big shock for my coworkers.

Yeah, part of me wants her to file already and the other parts hopes she'll wake up and we somehow (miraculously) can maybe start the road to fixing things.

"Have you had any conversations outside the brief communications at family gatherings?"

Nope, I've barely seen or spoken to her. (I've had some dreams about her lately about how we hug and cry and try to reconcile.) However, a couple days after the her brother's b-day dinner, she called me about a code for the car alarm. I looked it up in the files I've kept (while talking to her about it) and gave it to her. It was purely business talk about the car. She mentioned that she'll have to come and get the paperwork I have on that and one of these days we'll have to switch names on the titles.

Thanks again for your support. I agree my family and friends have been the best medicine and support through all this. Surprisingly, I'm not too down about the christmas season and all. I'm looking forward to spending it with family and friends.

What should be interesting also is that my mother-in-law (almost insists) wants me to go to their home with their whole family for Christmas eve (as I've done for 7 years). We'll see how that turns out.

Best wishes to you unsureheart!
Hey aanst,

How are you handling your car situation, if I might ask? Right now my WW has one of the cars (I bought and paid for both) and they are both under my name. However I am considering making her get her own insurance policy or I may allow her to stay on mine to save money. She told me she NEEDS the car in her name (title) to get insurance in her name. Is this true? How did you handle your car/insurance situatation with your W?
Hi Alostsoul,

Thanks for the post.

I'm not really handling my car situation. I drive one car (the one I like and is paid off completely which is in her name first then mine), my WW drives the other (which she likes and pays monthly payments on and is in my name first then hers.) I pay for both insurances but my WW occasionally gives me money for her share.

My WW wants to officially switch titles for the cars. I'm fine with that but it hasn't happened yet. (I'm in no hurry.) I believe she'll need to get a new loan for her car then when that happens.

As for your question, I don't know if your W has to have the title in her name for insurance or not. The best way to find out is for you to call your agent or another agent and ask (even anonymously if you like.) They would know for sure. I'm sure they would be happy to answer that question free of charge too. Good luck.
Wheen I read this, it totally changed my outlook. I've been posting on the recovery board although I'm not sure what stage we're in. My H was going to OW's apartment on his night shift, calling her (they evidently dated before we were married, but I never knew of her). Anyway, when I found out, he denied everything. So I still don't know the extent of everything. I found out in May of this year.
But when I read your posts, I was struct with your commitment to your W. Since my H has denied everything, we're still together, going through the routine, I guess you could say. I've often wondered which could be harder, him leaving me for the OW or him staying and acting like nothing ever happened.
I, like the others, have my own mess and probably can't give the best advice, but I would agree with Dr. Dobson's love must be tough advice. Since your W cried, I believe that she is experiencing guilt. The hardest lesson to learn is that we can't be each other's Holy Spirit. Maybe I should feel fortunate because my H is still at home. But sometimes I wonder if it's still going on or if there's even someone else. I know for sure that your W wants to be taken care of - it's a need all women have. And although I don't want to make women sound like we're only after money, we need to feel like our husbands can take care of us. Being a janitor, I'm sure your wife has wondered (probably not out loud) but nevertheless wondered how well he'll take care of her. I feel like having her parents on your side is a positive. Not that you want to push her further away or anything, but we all have an innate desire to please our parents, no matter how old we are, so having her parents love you should really deep down influence her.
I guess in the end, only by prayer and denying yourself (which you seem to be doing a lot of) can this work. I would not even consider divorce at this point unless she pursues it. But there is a fine line between fighting for something and allowing it to use you. Only you know that line. You seem to be strong. I can't say that I would be as loving if my husband flaunted his emotions for the OW in front of me (like I've stated, he still denies them).
I'm glad for your sake that you do not have children. If the time presents itself, you should tell her that you realize how frightened you were with the idea of children and that you've changed in this area. It's not something you want to hold over her head or make her feel like you're saying just for her to come home. But, if you are sincere about it, let her know how sorry you are for not understanding her desire for children. This is another great need and I'll go back to the financial support thing -- although she might not admit it, deep down she knows that having children with the OM is not what she wants. Of course, it would take time to heal the relationship, counseling, etc. before you two should get pregnant, but I think it would mean a lot to her if you somehow let her know how sorry you are in this area.
One thing I've noticed with my H is sometimes it's like he wants a reason to be mad at me. Almost as if to justify what he's done (whatever that is). Try not to allow her to have reasons to be angry with you. I've found the best way is to simply agree with statements instead of combatting them.
For instance, my H will say, "You're ignoring me. You never listen to me."
I want to say, "Well, I'm hurting right now." or "You've been ignoring me, too".
This immediately starts an arguement.
Instead, I should say, "You're right. I have been in my own little world and I'm sorry."
Like I said, there is a fine line between giving and being walked on.

Will your W agree to go on a date with you? I'm thinking that if she'll go out with you, that would be a good start. I didn't mean for this to be so long. Hope I've helped some.
Hi bhf1111,

"But when I read your posts, I was struct with your commitment to your W."

I appreciate your post and comments. I have to admit though that my feelings and desire for commitment are fading. There was a tremendous cascading out of my love bank when she called me up in mid October and said she spoke with an attorney and would be filing asap. She had claimed this many times before but when I verified that she actually did speak with one it shattered most of my remaing hope and desire.

While she still hasn't gone through with it, and here we are 2+ months since then, I'm not really expecting her to change and want to work on the M.

So I'm commited to the M in the sense that I would probably give her one chance for us to both work on it if she came around sooner rather than later. However, I guess I'm just waiting for her to divorce me (which I feel is inevitable.) I figure she was waiting for the holidays to be over or something (she also has mentioned that her lease will be up in June so she'll want the equity in our house by we'll see.) I guess it is a bit of a cop out on my part to just be "waiting for her to divorce me." I don't know.

There is nothing else I can really do to help matters. The ball is in her court. She knows I have changed and that I'm a safe place to return to. Even now, I *KNOW* for a fact that her A is still full on (she calls and sees him multiple times a day, it's ridiculous how often.)

You mentioned seeing if my WW would go on a date with me. Since she is with OM constantly, I doubt it. I also think that would be coming on too strong for her which would push her farther away. I also am not sure if I would like to either. I really feel that I'm at the point where I have nothing else to give. I'm empty. I could respond if she showed something...anything but it is just not happening.

While I believe in M, almost everyone else in my life is encouraging me to move on and get a divorce. Everone that is besides the people here, my W's siblings, and my in-laws (who btw gave me a Chirstmas card that said "we hope, hope, hope that things will be better soon" which drew a tear to my eye. I'm happy they are so supportive and love me so much and want the best for both of us. It is sad to see the pain they too are going through.)

Anyway, I'm not closing the door on my marriage and filing. I'm in no hurry. But I believe that I have done all I can, it takes two to make a marriage work. She has made it clear multiple times that she does not want to. So yes I wait. I can for a little while longer. But I'm also not holding my breath. I'm moving on with my life and living it and having fun, setting goals, etc.

As for Christmas eve, I went to my in-laws. She was there. We spoke briefly in private and occasionally in a group. Our conversation was mostly about her dogs, music, and movies. Nothing serious. She avoided me most of the time and didn't start any conversations. She also did not hug me when everyone else hugged everyone else at the stroke of midnight.

As for your situation, I hope things get better for you. I would agree with you and say you should stick to tough love and keep your boundaries. However, I also agree with how you said you should respond to things he says with comments that difuse the situation rather than ignite and escalate things into an argument. (I liked your example.)

Thanks again for your reply.
aanast -- I feel as if I should just write "ditto" to everything you said in your most recent post. Not ready to give up, but losing hope. Moving forward without quite moving on. Hearing from most people that I should file for a D.

The most bizarre part of your wife's behavior is that it appears that she has not actually filed the paperwork for a D and that she doesn't pitch a fit when you're around her family. Curious don't you think?

As it is the new year, I was reflecting on how much has changed for me over the past year, but that nothing much has changed for WH. I think if you looked back at the past year you would see how much stronger you have gotten since your first posts and how your WW is stuck in a holding pattern.

I do believe that at some point BS in our situations do lose their love, respect and patience for the WS over time. Sad.

I hope you are doing well in the other parts of your life (work, friends, etc).
she called me. turns out she did file/filed out paperwork but it was delayed because her attorney switched firms. it'll all be coming soon (all be over soon I hope.)

she is coming over to get a few remaining items, she wants to go over papers, switch titles on cars, list our assets and debts. i gotta make sure i talk to my attorney before signing/agreeing to anything.

i hope it is smooth, i don't want any more stress. i hope i don't get ripped off; she seemed to be talking very nit-picky about stuff (her lawyer told her so) trying to nickel and dime me to death or something. i just want to be fair.

as for the house, i was right, she wants her share of the moola by may so she can get her own place or start a business cuz her lease is up in june.

as for me, i have come a long way. there is a sense of loss and sadness still yes, but i don't need her and in many ways don't want her. we had something great, it is possible that we could have had something great again but as i've said it takes two to make it work. i've done all I can, i can look back and say that.

i've learned so much as well and i hope I can apply that to my future and future realtionships (god knows, i never want this to happen again! )

well the M is over (sure legally there are a few loose ends to tie up) but in all the important ways it is. it has been for quite some time, i just needed to process it (which for me meant denial, fighting it, fighting for it, losing hope, giving up, moving on, and accepting it.)

obviously, no one knows what the future holds. i'm a man who thinks of all possibilities, all unrealized realities. anything can happen sure.

but i'm dealing with what it happening now, what life is now. I'm happy. I can actually say that. It has been a long, long time. I will be happy and continue on my road of success.

If anything changes in which I feel the need to update, vent, proclaim, explain, question, answer, or whatever, I will write again.

But for now, thank you to all of you who have given me advice, listened, written, etc. Reading your stories here have helped me in many ways. Your comments have been appreciated. I especially want to that you, unsureheart, for all you have done. I cannot put into words how helpful and comforting you have been. You are a strong, loving woman. You deserve nothing but the best, remember that. I wish you good fortune in all you do, whatever happens. Thank you.

"I'm in myself." It is a tag I've seen on some people's posts and I used to think that it was bad and I would no matter what be in recovery with my W in my M. It doesn't look like that it how it turned out and so life goes on. I go on.

This is not goodbye. This is thank you.
aanast -- None of us can really predict the future, but I can say with strength of conviction that no matter what happens you are going to be okay and that you are going to thrive.

I still believe that it ain't over 'til it's over and you never know what is going to happen in the course of your WW pursuing a D. That is not to say that you should cling to hope that your M will be restored, but that you should still have hope. There is a difference and I think you understand that now and are living that difference.

I do hope you post again because I would like to know how you are doing and how your WW is doing. I believe from everything that you're posted that this was her rebellion and that she is confused. She may have needed to go through this independence to test herself and one day she will understand that it is possible for a person to change and grow and that you have done that.

Here is my update. WH has actually made an appointment with the therapist. I have more hope than I did several weeks ago, but I know that our M is still hanging by a thread. I think I need to go through some type of counseling with him even if our M cannot be restored -- I need it for our friendship to be restored (if that is possible). unsure update

I will check back here periodically to see how you are - I am thankful for all of your support too. God bless.

I am sorry to hear about your story, alas, mine is the same. My H revealed to me that he is in an EA with a coworker. D-day was Oct 12th, he was going to move out, had had it with our marriage and admitted ONS. I told him I wanted to work it out and still loved him. I thought We were getting closer in 4 months than we had in years. Then the other bomb was dropped about EA with co-worker. Our marriage has been a mess for the last 4 years. We started out very much in love and things went from bad to worse after my 2nd son was born. He was not meeting my EN and in turn I started pushing him away. I blame myself for my behavior, but in reflection, know why it happened, it takes two to tango. I spoke with H last night and he is very confused, co-worker has a room for him to rent (how nice since she herself is divored and went thorough same.) I am still hopeful, he does not want to leave the 2 wonderful kids we have. He knows that I need to know asap what is happening, it is driving me crazy! I have found solace in knowing that what I am doing is the right thing no matter what, I love him deeply and dont want to lose him but I also cant control him. He is very comforting when I do have my bad days and break down and cry, but on the other hand he is "tired of talking about it", (even though when I am not talking about it he brings it up). It is like Dr. Jekyll, Hyde-and is VERY HARD to deal with to say the least. I dont know if he can stay with us. He was talking about his own "space" so I have no idea what is happening. I too am trying to show him that I am ready to meet all EN's and I know that this marriage could be rock solid if we could see this through. I have also lost weight but I am improving myself for me. This is without a doubt one of the worst situations a person could ever have to go through, take it day by day as best as you can, try to stay positive (HARD), and put faith in God. Good luck.

married 4/22/88
2 children
1998 things start going downhill
2002-WH still trying to get me out of fog, I am not listening
10/02-WH tired wants out, admits ONS
01/03-WH admits EA with Co-worker
aanast -- I know you're not posting much anymore, but I hope you check in and let us know how you are doing. I hope well.
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