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Hello aanast2-

Wow, I read your story and was shocked at the similarities to my situation. In the beginning, my WW's brutal honesty made a clear course of action difficult to follow. However, I hired a PI because of my suspicions of a PA and because of my belief that what she was putting me through (waffling on her feelings about me, refusal to break off contact with OM, etc.) was WRONG. Well, my concerns were warranted but the PI report did succeed in putting the A out in the open, where it apparently died. Unfortunately, I'm guessing that PA part with regards to your WS is not far off if it hasn't happened yet. I made some of the mistakes it sounds like you've managed to avoid but I would caution you to look out for yourself and not continue to put up with her behavior unless you feel pretty certain that things will end up the way YOU envision. Take some time to come up with a logical plan of action then stick with it. Good luck!

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Unsureheart- Thanks for replying. I'm sorry that I've been so caught up in my mess too that I haven't posted over on your thread yet. I haven't really posted on anyone's really except my own.

"I'm still flummoxed by how your WW went from last week seeming fairly positive, not mentioning money, divorce, etc. to a week later bringing it up with some urgency. I can only guess that maybe OM is pressuring her."

Yeah it is a bit surprising. I was thinking slowly but surely, baby steps, etc. Now, I'm thinking she just wants to play nice so that the divorce goes smoothly. As for pressure, it could be OM but I'm almost positive it is (also?) a female coworker friend (who is also friends with OM) that has been advising her through all of this almost every step of the way. While I know my WW is an adult who makes her own decisions, I'm pretty sure that this "friend" of hers is advising her.

I had a feeling all of this would happen now because 1) my W is more settled in her apartment (which was her main focus over the summer) and 2) she is back at work with her "friend" and the supportive environment where this all started.

"I believe you should still have hope. It ain't over til it's over."
Thanks. I think you, my mother-in-law, and myself are the only ones on the planet that I know who think there is still a shot.

"I do mull over in my mind from time to time whether if WH showed up on my doorstep tomorrow and wanted to reconcile -- could I? would I? I think it's healthy to ask these questions of yourself. "

Definately. I believe in questioning one's thoughts and actions. Asking those "WHY?" questions about anything (traditions, practices, beliefs, customs, etc) is very important.

In addition to "would I?" or "could I?", my question for myself, if my WW wanted to reconcile, would also be "should I?" A big part of me wants to do the right thing. What is the "right" thing to do? I guess it is debately and not easlily definable.

"Please let us know if your WW goes forward with what she told you last week."

Well, I don't know yet. She called me this evening and left a message on the phone. I didn't answer on purpose. Part of me wants to run far, far away and never answer that call.

Her voice sounded very sweet and pleasant. She asked me to call her when I get a chance and she hopes everything is going well for me.

I did speak briefly with her parents the other day. Her mom said she told them last Sunday that she was going to talk to a lawyer. Her mom then got into a fight with her. Their relationship has been quite strained since all this began.

Basically my WW is telling her parents that she is doing this for herself, independence, etc and not OM. Her parents say that is one thing, but if this is about OM then that is wrong.

Her sister recommended that her mom and my WW get family counselling. My WW said ok so long as they don't talk about me at all. Her mom said that is what their problems are all about.

bwcaw- Thanks for your reply. As of now, if my W file for divorce and/or gets pregnant, then I'm giving up. As for sticking to my own plans and not letting her push my boundaries, that won't come into play until/if we start some kind of recovery.

As for the PA, well, I've known about my WW's PA for some time. For one thing, she told me about it months ago. I also saw them together at the beach. And, she is now for the first time since before we dated, taking birth control pills (something I'm against and have been for 7 years with her.) So, I'm pretty sure there is a PA.

I also have another source from which I know that the A is still going on.

Well, nothing really new. I know I'm just avoiding the inevitable, but I really don't want to answer that call because I know she is going to tell me she filed etc. It is going to upset me. I know I'm running away from it but somehow I just don't want to face it. I'm scared, sad, upset, and hope that somehow I'm still going to wake up from this nightmare. Somehow if I don't answer, maybe she won't file or didn't file or...

ok, ok, I know I need to face her and reality, but it is not easy, and I don't want to. But I will.

I'll keep ya posted.

Here's to hoping for the best!

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aanast -- I know how you feel about not taking that call. You want in your heart to postpone what you believe is the call ending your relationship. I had a great deal of trepidation letting my WH come over and talk after d-day #2 before I went to no contact. He started out all "clear" in his head that maybe ending our marriage was the best thing to do, but the more we talked, the more he seemed confused and softened. The next night he wanted to have dinner again and again the next night (to which I said no because I knew I was going to have to go to plan B -- he was becoming a cakeman/still wants both and I just couldn't take it anymore).

So, take that call. You never really know what she's going to say. I think it's good you didn't take it the first time/cause her to wonder. I do think she's getting "advice" (bad I might add) from this friend and OM. I still believe it ain't over til it's over and that until she actually files and then actually proceeds with it, there is still hope.

Stay calm (you've done great at that so far) and be open to what she has to say. My guess is that she's still confused and when she calls she may have one thing in mind, but may not be able to go through with it. I've also noticed that it seems harder for her to be "firm" when she sees you in person. Is there anyway when she calls for you to say that you don't have time to talk right now, but that you would appreciate it if the two of you could talk in person in the next few days?

Stay strong. Stay calm. Go read going crazy's post over on GQII if you want to hear about hope after a long and drawn out A and waffling.

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unsureheart- Thanks (as always) for your reply.

How are you doing with Plan B? From what I've read here, it is often very hard for the BS in the beginning (not to mention also shocking to WS who can get angry at first too.) I'm glad your still posting. It seems that Spacecase disappeared after his Plan B.

"I still believe it ain't over til it's over and that until she actually files and then actually proceeds with it, there is still hope."
True. I do have hope. I'm going to have to call her back I think. I don't think she'll call me again unless I don't call her back (and then she'll say I'm avoiding her etc.. which actually would be true <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

I'm a bit of a procrastinator at times so I'm not sure when I'm going to call her. No time is really a good time to be honest. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

"My guess is that she's still confused and when she calls she may have one thing in mind, but may not be able to go through with it."
One can hope, but we'll see.

"I've also noticed that it seems harder for her to be "firm" when she sees you in person. Is there anyway when she calls for you to say that you don't have time to talk right now, but that you would appreciate it if the two of you could talk in person in the next few days?"
I like this idea. I think you're right. Somehow the more she sees me in person, the harder it is for her to hurt me and the closer she gets with me.

She has been avoiding coming over because of that and because she gets sad when she comes back to our home.

Then when she starts waffling her "friends" ping-pong her back in the other "D"irection. I think I'll try seeing her in person though since I have nothing else to lose.

Perhaps she's calling because she wants to see me in person. What could happen is she may want to serve me with papers if/when we see each other in person.

I guess wondering and thinking about all the possibilities is not going to change anything and I need to face reality.

Thanks for your input. I appreciate it.

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brief update-

I called my WW this evening. She asked me how I was doing and I told her not very well at all. She seemed very concerned and asked what is wrong. I told her that this whole situation is terrible, I'm not doing fine, and even though everything else in my life is going great, this is the worst thing that has ever happened to me and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

Basically, her response was oh, I thought something bad happened to you at work or something.

Anyway, I told her that I was returning her call. She basically told me that she saw a lawyer and paid a retainer (or a deposit towards it for $3,500.) She apologized to me for the awkwardness of them going to be serving me papers. I told her that it won't be awkward it will just be awful and sad. She said yeah, yeah you've said that already.

Anyway, she said she was out the door and couldn't talk. She said we should meet sometime and I interjected by saying that is a great idea. She replied by saying no, it is not great, we will be meeting because there is paperwork that we need to work on. She added that her lawyer said that most of the stuff we can decide together without a lawyer so things will go easier/smoother (interestingly, my WW wouldn't say the word divorce, it seemed that she felt awkward and was dancing around it without saying it for most of the conversation.) She also said that all I would have to pay is $105 to file something in response or something.

I told her that I would like to see her and I don't like just talking to her on the phone. She said of course, we'll have to see each other more in the future because of all the paperwork, settlements etc... that we need to do.

I then did my "we shouldn't leave any stones left unturned" plug. I told her that there are things that we haven't looked at together, options that we should look at.

She asked me what options, like counselling? I said yes for one. She said that her lawyer told her that maybe our health insurance could cover it.

My wife reiterated that she would only get counselling to benefit herself. She said this is not easy for her. I told her that counselling and other options that exist out there for us to investigate does not mean she is committing to the marriage but something we should check out together before we take any action. She kept wanting to know what options I'm referring to because she's examined all the options. I didn't really know how to respond.

I told her that I believe that there is still hope for our marriage and I asked her if she thought so. She said no, and that her lawyer asked her the same thing. She also said that she feels that her whole body tells her that there is no hope. She seemed a bit peeved about this whole issue (the options/hope thing). I told her
that I understand that that is how she feels and I'm not trying to disrepect how she feels.

She said that I am disrepecting how she feels by telling her that there ARE other options because she believes there is no hope. I apologized, told her I didn't mean to disrepect what she was saying, and asked her to let me rephrase what I was saying. I summarized what she told me about her feelings. I then said that I disagree with her opinion.

She said she knows how I feel, that we disagree, and that we are at a stalemate. She asked me what she wanted me to do. She said she knows I'm in pain but she said "what am I just supposed to do? Come back and everything will be alright?" I said no, you're not supposed to just come back and we pretend nothing ever happened. I said there are things we need to explore, steps we need to take. She basically said yeah, yeah, yeah and didn't want to hear it.

Overall it was a short, somewhat confrontational conversation.

My questions are:

1. I guess she is not going to serve me with divorce papers personally. Does that mean that I will be served at work or home by some process server or sheriff or something? I guess I could ask her. I mean at this point does it really matter who serves it? I guess not, I guess I thoguht she would personally. I guess I'm just wondering if someone's going to show up at the high school I teach at. No one there knows my situation (which is awkward for me when people ask how my wife is doing.) I still don't know how/what I'm going to do with that whole thing (if I do get divorced.)

2. Her comment about counselling has me wondering. I know she mentioned it would be just for herself to make herself feel better. Perhaps I will try (again) to get her to talk with Steve (if she thinks it is all paid for since money is her #1 concern, she may be more willing.) hmmm?

3. If/as this progresses (i.e. divorce), how am I supposed to act? Just because I can Plan A, should I? I know Steve told me Plan B is only for if/when my pain is too much (and too risky because I don't have kids) and I should keep up with Plan A, does that mean I should for my M? When do I say, you know what aanast2, nothing can save your M, you've done plenty of Plan A for you M what about something for just you. Part of my wants to Plan B because part of me doesn't ever want to see WW again. Again, mixed emotions mixed with guilt.

I also know that if I Plan B NOW, she will be extremely pissed and consider it as me being manipulative because it will cost her more attorney's fees since I won't communicate with her. At what point do I stop working for my M and work for me as a single guy?

When she files, do I try to fight for what I can get (financially)? I'm not going to try to delay the divorce but if I know the M is going to be over no matter what, I don't think I should just let her take whatever. I know I'm sounding selfish but I've been wondering about what point I accept that it is over and defend myself so I at least get what I deserve.

I read awhile back on some website about divorce and the stages one goes through. It said somewhere on there that when the marriage is coming to an end, both spouses get greedy (try to hide money in accounts, etc...) I'm feeling guilty that I'm even thinking about myself as an individual and not as a married person. So when do I make the move to fight for myself financially during this (possible) upcoming divorce?

I'm not sure I'm being clear. I don't want a divorce (in fact part of me wonders/doubts/thinks that maybe I'm not fighting for my M because I love my W or because of commitment or because it is just better to be married, but because I don't like divorce, don't want to be considered divorced, always promised myself I'd never get divorced because my parents were... It is probably all these reasons and more but I ponder sometimes. This is a whole other issue.)

Anyway, I realize that the moment I don't cooperate with my WW in any part of the divorce it will be yet another LB and yet another nail in the coffin. For emotional recovery and healing in the future, it will help me as an individual to know that up until the very end I literally did everything I can.

So, if I don't do that (doormat) up until the very end (i.e. I LB by disagreeing with some terms of divorce) does that mean I'll have less emotional recovery/baggage afterwards?

Or will I kick myself later for letting her get away with my share of the equity in the home etc. (I feel so guilty even saying "my share", I'm sounding like my WW!)

I'm not sure I'm being eloquent enough on this issue.

Basically I'm pondering my recovery after a divorce. What (if there is one) is the relationship between emotional recovery vs. financial recovery based on actions I take prior to the divorce.

On one hand I can fight for more money, get more money and feel regret/guilt when I'm divorced that I didn't Plan A until the end and/or didn't do EVERY SINGLE THING possible to save my M.

On the other hand if I do not fight her on anythign with the divorce, I may end up with less $$$ (something I can always earn again) but have less regret and be further along with recovering and healing from this traumatic event in my life (knowing I really did do everything up until the end.)

Any comments?

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I have been through a D; so I know how you feel.

I think you should start looking after yourself on the day you are served with divorce papers.

I think the lawyer will have someone in his office serve the papers to you. You could ask your W that any papers not be sent to work, as you want to keep your work life as separate from the mess as possible. You could mention jokingly that you don't want to get laid off. She has an interest in this, because of financial support issues being hammered out. It might be helpful to let a trusted person in your immeiate management structure know about the difficult time you are going to have in advance if you feel that your work will be affected; that way they will know it is just a temporary phase and can offer you whatever help they can.

I have a feeling that, since the OM is not well off, they might try to get the maximum money out of you. I feel that you would feel better with yourself if you neither give her too much, nor give too little - but aim for what you think is her fair share. That way you will feel good about having been fair; but will not feel guilty for having cheated her, nor feel cheated and walked all over for having let her take too much. She will respect you for this.

I suggest you reach out to your family or a close friend whom you can call any time when you feel in despair. Either that or seek out weekly individual C for yourself to get through this period, not necessarily MB. Sometimes work provides free counselling as part of an employee renumeration program. You need not tell anyone about C.

- relate

<small>[ October 19, 2002, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: relate ]</small>

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Thanks for your reply relate. You've given me some good advice and input.

Nothing really new to report with me. My WW called the other day (I saw on caller id) but did not leave a message on the answering machine. I was not home.

Her sister also invited me out to the family dinner for their parents' wedding anniversary but I was out of town. I'm not sure I would have gone because of the pain of seeing my WW and the possibility of her serving me with papers. I guess I would/should have gone to keep up with my Plan A.

Some recent discoveries:

I did a bit of snooping and found that A is still going strong. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I also found out that she actually did talk to an divorce attorney/mediator person on Oct 14th. (I was hoping it was just "talk") <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

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Hi Aanast2,

I read the beginning and end of your story. I do recall your situation and apologize for not keeping up with it in detail. I am sorry where you are but I see some red flags out there regarding your W.

1. She is still very selfish -
a. wanting counseling only for herself.
b. wanting to work out her side without you
having proper representation.

2. She is insulting to your character by:
a. saying you are faking your improvements
b. insinuating that you even may be turning
her family against her?
c. she waits for you to make a statement or
even agree with her and then she does
a 180.

3. You need to watch out that there isn't a plan to take you to the cleaners. Keep your eyes open, this is very likely. I am not sure what state you live in but in CA, it would be easy for her to do so. Do you have a lawyer?

Based on the above, plan A is NOT good for you. IMHO anyways. You need to identify your boundaries and stick to plan B.

Get a lawyer, put everything in writing. Never give her the benefit of any doubt. Assume that she is plotting against you - so that you are prepared. Be strategtic in your dealings with her.

My next suggestion is to learn how to reverse babble. Can't say that is a MB principle but tough love may be what you need to implement. Please read Love must be tough by Dr James Dobson. Good book.

Wayward women are a dangerous group. Women in general tend to get pretty nasty when put in a corner. Her A has taken her to that corner and you are her primary target.

Remove yourself as that target. Use reverse babble as a shield to deflect her cutting words and make them bounce back on her.

ex:

W: I need counseling only for me.
BS: You certainly do. Go get it.

W: Your changes are good but fake.
BS: No as fake as yours.

W: You are turning everyone against me.
BS: Yes you are.

W: OM reminds me of you .
BS: No, I am much better than he. But you can have him.

What do these statements show? They do NOT show the real pain you feel but they do deflect it back to the WS. These statements may confuse the WS. That is ok, that is the intent. You see the WS in their A babble confusion, says they don't mean to hurt and then stab with the sharpest instrument at their disposal. We need to let them know that we see their tactics. I have even told my WS to stop babbling because 1. he isn't making sense and I refuse to have a conversation with a babbler. 2. He can come back when he is speaking clear english. LOL!!!

take care,
L.

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Hi Aanast2:

Sorry I missed your post for a long time ... I figure since you have a lot of reply you got a lot of help already. I try to find my niche to help out BS w/ 0 reply on their post. You did have a lot of help actually, I probably only confirming what everybody already told you.

I guess you read my post to Alan. Your situation is different than him. In his case the OM is fading out of the picture and WW issues is only him. He can not stop plan A'ng now and even he has to show it more to her. Shower her w/ attentions and fillin all ENs that she allows him to fill in. In your case, you had been doing plan A for about 5 months now and has no impact ... i.e she even filed and there is more disrespect to M and you. You have a cake eater on your hand and like Orchid says, this kind of WW is a very dangerous kind. You have the chance last time when she was moving back and you took her back w/o ammends. In MB you should go to plan B when she is continuing her A after she made up her mind to go home. Otherwise she knows that she could go back anytime she wants it and you providing her a safety net while she is planning her way w/ OM. You are enabeling her A.

You should console w/ Harley right away, to help you out the next step.

IMVHO, I agree with Orchid ... she was training her H to be a cake eater w/ multiple false start until she cut it off. In her situation it works since OW is not ready to take H and pressure start comming on their relationship. OW didn't come through w/ her words and the A crumbled. Your situation is similiar to hers that is OM is not ready yet to take your WW. Your WW's tries to figure out how to prolong the A and live out from you ... watch out !!!. She will take you to the cleaner for OM. My WW's is similiar and I have to protect my self. Our WW are addicted to their OM. You have to stop enabling her A. How ?. It look like you could control yourself well and you posted that you was a neglectfull H. Plan B is no good, specially with Dv is comming. You have to stop enabling her A and read enablement on my sig. You have to do tough love and talk to the fog. Orchid could guide you w/ specific Q&A. Seek a lawyer right now and see how much is SS if you have to pay her and financial & legal advice. Don't get desparate, my WW talked to her lawyer around September'01 and my WW not filed it until March'02. It is actually good that she talked to her lawyer, now she is facing a bit reality. Do you know how much $ she is getting for SS ?, is it more than what you gave her ?, Could it be that she is thinking that your asset is the best way to prolong her A w/ OM ?. My WW does and I have to "gave up" my career to protect myself financially.

Use tough love but still ... NO LB'ed.

-rh-

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Orchid- thanks for your reply.
"I read the beginning and end of your story. I do recall your situation and apologize for not keeping up with it in detail. I am sorry where you are but I see some red flags out there regarding your W. "
Thanks for popping in, I love all the comments I can get.

"1. She is still very selfish -
2. She is insulting to your character
3. You need to watch out that there isn't a plan to take you to the cleaners. Keep your eyes open, this is very likely. I am not sure what state you live in but in CA, it would be easy for her to do so. Do you have a lawyer? "

You're right about all three. I have been expecting the worst. I can almost see her faking coming back or going to counselling if it meant more money for her. I live in Chicago. I don't have a lawyer but could very easily. I'm just waiting for her to follow through with what she has been saying.

"Based on the above, plan A is NOT good for you. IMHO anyways. You need to identify your boundaries and stick to plan B. "

I appreciate your humble opinion. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I'm not in Plan B. I'm currently sticking with Plan A because Steve Harley advises that I should. I think his reasoning is as follows:
1. Plan B is too risky
2. it is even more risky with no kids
3. I can continue with Plan A. I'm not in extreme pain or on the verge of LBing. I think this is one of the main reasons he has (probably because he senses that it is not going to work out either and wants me to look back without regret knowing I did all I could.)

"Get a lawyer, put everything in writing. Never give her the benefit of any doubt. Assume that she is plotting against you - so that you are prepared. Be strategtic in your dealings with her. "
Absolutely, if/when that time comes I will definately do that.

"My next suggestion is to learn how to reverse babble. Can't say that is a MB principle but tough love may be what you need to implement. Please read Love must be tough by Dr James Dobson. Good book. "
I haven't read it but heard a lot about it. At this stage do you think it could save my M?
My WW is looking for anything I do to be an justification/excuse for her divorcing me (leaving me for OM.) Won't she just interpret anything besides my Plan A (such as Plan B or tough love) as a LB?

"ex:
W: I need counseling only for me.
BS: You certainly do. Go get it.
W: Your changes are good but fake.
BS: No as fake as yours.
W: You are turning everyone against me.
BS: Yes you are.
W: OM reminds me of you .
BS: No, I am much better than he. But you can have him. "
interesting.
I've never tried anything like that with her. However, I would think that she'll just get insulted and it'll be an LB. Plus the last one is almost like I'm giving her permission or my blessing.


redhat, thanks for your reply.

"In your case, you had been doing plan A for about 5 months now and has no impact ... i.e she even filed and there is more disrespect to M and you."
well, she was only living with me the first month of those, since then it is harder to Plan A because I barely ever see her. As for no impact, you're right. She rejects the changes, thinks of our M as being over a long time ago, and is still with OM.

However, I think the times we have spoken it has been very pleasant/friendly. So she is not disrespecting the M even more. She is doing equally to way back when.

"You have the chance last time when she was moving back and you took her back w/o ammends. In MB you should go to plan B when she is continuing her A after she made up her mind to go home. Otherwise she knows that she could go back anytime she wants it and you providing her a safety net while she is planning her way w/ OM. You are enabeling her A."

I understand. When I first took her back, it was only after a month of hell and her going back and forth. Plus, as far as I knew at the time, she hadn't acted on or told OM her feelings. So, I was trying to be the best husband I could be when I happen to see her.

and I didn't know what MB was etc. I know it seems like enabling, but I was preparing myself to show her 6 months of Plan A while she was living with me.

"You should console w/ Harley right away, to help you out the next step."

I have. He said Plan A (see above and other posts)
Use tough love but still ... NO LB'ed.

interesting comments on the reverse babble thing. I'm going to have to think about it and discuss it moe with you guys here (make sure I understand it.)

brief update-
WW called and left a message on the machine. She had stopped by to pick up winter coat and shoes. She was just letting me know and mentioned how cold it is lately. She also said she wants to meet with me sometime this week so we can "figure out/take care of some things."

Then, as she was hanging up, she asked how my weekend was, specifically my sister (since she just remembered to aske me about it.) It seemed sorta an afterthought.

I'm going to continue with Plan A. Steve Harley said delaying the divorce will just make her think I'm controlling her.

I will draw the line and will also make sure a lawyer sees everything before I do anything.

for now I gotta crazh. I'm exhausted and actually falling asleep at the monitor reading this.

l8r

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You have to be honest with SH. His job is saving M ... as long as you have a bit of energy left in you, he will push you to stay in plan A. For MB, plan B is a last resort.

I understand very well what you mean by "regret". I gave my best and it is not enough but now I have no guilt and ready to move on. However, please protect yourself !. Consult w/ lawyer not for Dv but understanding what is your right.

Ask SH about "reverse babbled" next time you talk to him. I am interested to know his answer. Rememeber you still have to stay clear from LB'ed ... Basically, we try to say "I love you but I hate your actions". Talk back to the fog back w/ love and care. Based on your posts I think you could do it and control your emotion.

-RH-

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"You have to be honest with SH. His job is saving M ... as long as you have a bit of energy left in you, he will push you to stay in plan A. For MB, plan B is a last resort."

true, true. And that is what I want. I want to save the M and know that is his thing. Ultimately, if the M dies, I'll be better off as an individual knowing that I didn't give up and tried my best. For me, I'd feel better with this in the long term (despite any anguish I'm in now - granted if she doesn't divorce me I wouldn't stay in Plan A forever...I'd eventually go to Plan B when I couldn't take it and then eventually divorce her.)

"I understand very well what you mean by "regret". I gave my best and it is not enough but now I have no guilt and ready to move on. However, please protect yourself !. Consult w/ lawyer not for Dv but understanding what is your right."

I hear you loud and clear. When the time comes, I will most definately consult with a lawyer for information at the very least. I definately don't want to be screwed over financially by my WW and will make sure that it doesn't happen.

"Ask SH about "reverse babbled" next time you talk to him. I am interested to know his answer."
I will if I ever do. I highly doubt I ever will speak to him again. Only because I highly doubt things are going to get better in my M (i.e. my WW coming around, out of fog, cosidering counselling, ending A, etc...) But if they do get slightly better (baby steps) I'll call him and I will ask.

"Rememeber you still have to stay clear from LB'ed ... Basically, we try to say "I love you but I hate your actions". Talk back to the fog back w/ love and care. Based on your posts I think you could do it and control your emotion."

gotcha. That makes it more clear. I think I can do it and will try it.

brief update again-

I happened to stumble across some more info. (sorta "accidental" snooping) Anyway, it turns out my WW has charged some plane tickets for her and OM for Mexico (where he grew up) and paid $165 to the attorneys on Oct 14th (I know the name and # of the firm too.)

This information doesn't make me feel better, nor does it help my M. It does tell me that the A is going strong and that my wife did see/speak with an attorney and probably did file for divorce (or whatever the initial consultation is.)

A memory I keep having is when I asked my WW 2 weeks ago whether she had hope. And she responded by saying that her attorney asked her the same thing and she confidently said "NO."

Sometimes I wonder if I'm (and all BS who want to save their M) are complete idiots. That we need to wake up and realize that it is over and we should move on. I guess since we don't, this Plan A is a process by which we eventually learn.

My concern about not getting screwed over financially by WW in a divorce lately has been coupled with an occasional greedy/vindicitive side that wants to screw over my WW financially. Just emotions followed guilt and a swirly mix of madness. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I also wonder if filing for divorce has advantages for not get screwed over by WW.

ramble...ramble...

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by aanast2:
<strong>I happened to stumble across some more info. (sorta "accidental" snooping) Anyway, it turns out my WW has charged some plane tickets for her and OM for Mexico (where he grew up) and paid $165 to the attorneys on Oct 14th (I know the name and # of the firm too.)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is way more than $165 to file ... most likely she paid for consultation ... when retainer is paid then you know you are going to get served very soon.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Sometimes I wonder if I'm (and all BS who want to save their M) are complete idiots. That we need to wake up and realize that it is over and we should move on. I guess since we don't, this Plan A is a process by which we eventually learn.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Which pill do you choose, blue pill to live in denial or red pill to wake up and live, love & learn ? (the matrix). When WS rejects BS's plan A and continue w/ their A, we do it for us. To make sure that no stone unturn and live guilt free when Dv is unavoidable.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> ...I also wonder if filing for divorce has advantages for not get screwed over by WW.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Depend on which states you live. One more reason to seek consultation w/ lawyer ASAP.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My concern about not getting screwed over financially by WW in a divorce lately has been coupled with an occasional greedy/vindicitive side that wants to screw over my WW financially. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are now revealing a chilling side of you why she does not want to be with you, to put it in a language at a very low and stupid level of abstraction.

Start something like Chess, Bhudhism, ... Start the University System degree in Mathematics. Show your superior intellect; the OM is a mere idiotic and dim copycat.

<small>[ October 31, 2002, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: relate ]</small>

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aanast -- Sorry I've been away. I had a work conference and then found out this week that my father is having a fifth surgery related to his arteries, heart, etc. I'm pretty drained.

My thoughts about your current situation. First (and unfortunately) you do need to protect yourself by getting your own consultation with an attorney to find out what your rights are, etc so that you are mentally prepared for what may come from your WW. Second, I know SH says going to plan B is risky and I'm in that right now and can't say it's any picnic, BUT I can say that it has removed SOME of the pain in that I don't have to hear from WH all the time about what is and isn't right. Since your WW isn't contacting you much anyway, I'm not sure what plan B does for you. If you still have patience, then I suppose you can stay in plan A, but think hard about whether you feel that is enabling the continuation of the A.

How are YOU? What are you feeling right now? Do you feel prepared for what you will do if WW serves you?

The $165 dollars is definitely for a consultation -- that's about the cost of one hour of a good attorney's time (and probably not a really good attorney because that would cost $250 plus per hour in a big metro area like Chicago).

I have a meeting for a consultation tomorrow just to understand the process and my rights. I have no intention of filing (and seriously doubt my WH has taken that step), but I want to be prepared.

After everything you have been through, I would hate for your WW's selfishness to be the vehicle for hurting you financially, but the depths of depraved behavior on the part of WS has continually surprised me.

Hang in there.

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redhat- thanks again for your reply.

"It is way more than $165 to file ... most likely she paid for consultation ... when retainer is paid then you know you are going to get served very soon."

Ok, that is good to know. So I'm guessing my WW wants to talk to me to go over some paperwork/agreements of some kind (that she got from the $165 meeting) before she files.

"Which pill do you choose, blue pill to live in denial or red pill to wake up and live, love & learn ? (the matrix). When WS rejects BS's plan A and continue w/ their A, we do it for us. To make sure that no stone unturn and live guilt free when Dv is unavoidable."

I'm a Matrix fan. I hear what you are saying. I definately prefer reality, in the long run, as painful as it is. I guess living guilt free with a divorce is the lesser of two evils (i.e. better than a divorce with guilt!)

relate - thanks again for your reply.

"You are now revealing a chilling side of you why she does not want to be with you, to put it in a language at a very low and stupid level of abstraction."

I never thought of it that way (having a "chillling side.") I'm not going to let my anger, frustration, or thoughts of revenge or retribution control me, but honestly I was venting here with that post and do feel that way. I'm not going to let my actions be based on those feelings but honestly, I have felt them from time to time.

"Start something like Chess, Bhudhism, ... Start the University System degree in Mathematics. Show your superior intellect; the OM is a mere idiotic and dim copycat."

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I do play chess here and there but prefer other intellectual, nerdy games. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Maybe someday I'll study Bhudhism but I'll just pass on Mathematics (I had enough with AP Calculus in high school). I'm an English Teacher. Thanks though for the ideas. I think I'd rather show some physical superiority but I have to work on gaining some muscle mass. Currently, I'm 6'1 @ 180 lbs.

unsureheart - thanks, as always, for your reply and continued support.

"Sorry I've been away. I had a work conference and then found out this week that my father is having a fifth surgery related to his arteries, heart, etc. I'm pretty drained."

Is he going ok? I'm sorry to hear this. You must be drained. However, I'm glad to see you're still posting and still going strong.

"My thoughts about your current situation. First (and unfortunately) you do need to protect yourself by getting your own consultation with an attorney to find out what your rights are, etc so that you are mentally prepared for what may come from your WW."

I definately plan on going to an attorney if/when my WW gives me papers, files, serves or whatever. I'm not sure how it will help me if I go before then.

You mentioned "mentally prepared" but I'm not sure what you mean. I'm the type of guy who likes to hypothesize all kinds of possibilities (about all kinds of things.)

So I can imagine my WW wanting everything and accusing me of everything in the book. If that is the case (or whatever the case) I plan on taking that paper and bringing it straight to a lawyer to disect.

Somehow going now seems like I'm giving up (even if it is just to get information for my protection.) I know that is stupid.

I spoke with a lawyer once a few months back and he said I should file first. ( Steve Harley agreed with me that most lawyers advise people to file.)

I told the lawyer that I didn't want a divorce and he said I should still file first and I could drag it out for years and then drop the whole thing and let her then file if I wanted to. Talk about ridiculous.

Anyway, besides telling me to file first, I don't know what a lawyer could tell me that would help me prior to my WW filing. I guess I should talk to one to find out just in case. You're right, it wouldn't hurt just to find out info.

"Second, I know SH says going to plan B is risky and I'm in that right now and can't say it's any picnic, BUT I can say that it has removed SOME of the pain in that I don't have to hear from WH all the time about what is and isn't right. Since your WW isn't contacting you much anyway, I'm not sure what plan B does for you. If you still have patience, then I suppose you can stay in plan A, but think hard about whether you feel that is enabling the continuation of the A."

I'm glad you are doing better. Plan B is working for you.

You're right though, I don't think Plan B would do anything for me. I'm rarely in contact with my WW so... I have thought about Plan A enabling her A, but I don't think it is. But then again, who knows. I think a Plan B would make her say/think "oh, see, his true colors are finally showing, his changes were fake, he wants nothing to do with me, in fact he is just trying to make the divorce harder on both of us."

Eventually though, if she does not file, I will go to Plan B.

"How are YOU? What are you feeling right now? Do you feel prepared for what you will do if WW serves you?"

I'm ok. I sigh from time to time when I think of my WW or this whole mess. My brain still races every now and then thinking of other things I could try.

Some specific things I haven't tried are:

-telling OM that he is ruining my M and/or asking him to stop seeing my WW, ha! like that would do anything, I'm sure he'd just laugh at me or tell me he loves my WW. Then I'd resort to violence which is a no-no.

-talking to their boss, the principal at the school where my WW teaches, and asking him to help me or my M or something. I guess it would shed more light on their A but her coworkers all probably already know (since my WW told me back in Mar/April that she told her principal that she was getting a divorce.) If I do speak with the principal, she'll probably just get angry and file (if she hasn't already.)

Anyway, back to your question, I'm feeling like I'm getting used to be all alone in my house. Sometimes I think it would be very strange to have my WW here actually. It is weird to imagine someone else in the "building" in a way.

I'm kinda forgetting what it was like (since most of her things are gone - although I still stumble across little decorative house things here and there that I never noticed before which makes me think about WW as well as wonder why the hell I never noticed those things before.)

At this point, I would still take my WW back if she wanted to work on M. I would hope that feelings of love and trust would return for me and for her through a process over time. But, honestly, I'm also thinking about what the single life will be like for me. I'm sad & lonely somtimes, scared, but also very excited at a new chapter in my life.

I think what has got me through this far is my belief in M and commitment more so than feelings of love for my WW. I hope things do work out for us. I still have hope.

Howabout you?

As for your other question, if my WW serves me, I not LB. I will go straight to an attorney with the paperwork. I'm not going to fight it but I may (depending on the terms) have to look out for my own interests. I will be fair.

"I have a meeting for a consultation tomorrow just to understand the process and my rights. I have no intention of filing (and seriously doubt my WH has taken that step), but I want to be prepared."

Please tell me what you have learned. As I said, I may do the same thing, but I would love to know what you've found out (granted our states are different.)

"After everything you have been through, I would hate for your WW's selfishness to be the vehicle for hurting you financially, but the depths of depraved behavior on the part of WS has continually surprised me. Hang in there."

Thank you for your kind words and support.

Whatever happens, I'll be ok financially. If I lose it all, I'll still be ok. I don't want to lose it all <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , but there was a time when I didn't have any of it. I can always rebuild. I have a career going, I can always make more money and start anew.

One other thought I've had recently is about love. I understand the beliefs of MB and SH and it being conditional and all, but I was just thinking about true love (if there is such a thing.) Anyway, I was looking back at my M, and dating my W, and our love. I started to think that perhaps I didn't really REALLY love her (have true love?) because if I did that I would have met her ENs and not neglected her (and I've been in denial about my not really REALLY loving her.) And if she truly loved me, the A would not have happened. Maybe things aren't meant to be etc. Just a random thought that I feel like venting here.

<small>[ November 04, 2002, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: aanast2 ]</small>

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brief update:

I "stumbled across" some more info regarding my WW and the lawyer.

They spoke about a "petition" and "verification by certification" that my WW is mailing the attorney.

She also will be filing out an "Asset Disclosure Statement" now "in case it is needed."

The attorney has also asked her if she has met with me yet about a possible settlement and made a list of my assets to start a discussion with me.

My WW has not contacted me.

I think I'll be chatting with a lawyer soon regardless since I don't know what any of those terms mean.

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aanast2,

Dont' want to say I told you so but BS has to seek lawyer to consult !. "Petition" meaning she is the one filing and you will be called respondent. Dunno about "verification by certification". "Asset Disclosure Statement" is basically list of all your asset & debt, in CA we call it SAD (schedule Asset & Debt). Your W's laywer basically doing prep-work for filing, this is normal, they always ask for it. Your WW will call you once you are served. I would not talk to her w/o a representation. Just listen to her proposal and compare it w/ what your lawyer told you what you have to cough out by the law. Never agree to anything w/ consult w/ your lawyer ... specially signing anything.

I would get organized now. Go to local court house and get the form for asset & debt list and expense & income. Fill it out and plus has all the document to back it up. When you meet with your layer have it ready. I don't know which states you are living, in CA, the asset division is pretty dry, pulg in the number to a program (3 diff ones but all almost have the same $, diff cour house use a diff one), it will tell you spousal support & child support.

I would also call SH get his advice on if you need to prolong this Dv if it comes to it. Some states you could drag it very long.

-rh-

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This divorce case, if she files, will be all about getting as much money out of you for the two of them. I won't blame you if you tighten the purse strings as much as you can. I can understand your personally tightening your finances immediately without letting her know. Prolonging the divorce will do you no good whether you wish to reconcile or part: it will be a huge LB if you wish to reconcile - she would see you as a control freak; a huge waste of time and money if you part.

<small>[ November 07, 2002, 05:05 AM: Message edited by: relate ]</small>

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aanast -- I just wanted to check in. I am so sorry you came across this information, but do think you need to find out what you can about your options and your rights. I did. It doesn't make me feel better about a D, but at least I know what the process is and the terms.

Oh, I was so sad when I read your post about maybe you didn't love your WW or the A wouldn't have happened/you would have done a better job of meeting her needs. Listen, we all could have done a better job. For that matter, our WS's could have done a better job, but that does not mean you didn't love her or that you are not capable of it. I refuse to believe that. That is the kind of stuff the WS says "gee, I think maybe we never really loved eachother or we didn't really fit". You have a strong love or you would not have endured what you have in your plan A. Is it perfect? No, but none of us is perfect.

I hope you are feeling ok otherwise. I went running this morning and it really did help me not feel so sad. I may be headed for a D, but I'm trying hard not to obsess about it.

You said you are a teacher. What grade do you teach? What do you like about teaching? My mom was a teacher and I've always wondered whether that was something I would enjoy. I imagine that teachers need to have incredible patience. Something you've exhibited throughout this experience.

Take care of yourself. I will be thinking of you. Have you read H's post on GQII (it's an oldie but a goodie). I think it's really helpful to read that when you are feeling the way you appear to be right now.

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