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Joined: Jul 2002
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Dear aanast2,
I have been following your threads. I also think a no contact letter may help and also another great one that I found on MB that trueheart wrote. It mad me bawl. I am a BS and just sent WS a no contact letter and Truehearts. If you copy and paste it you can take out the parts about kids or add anything. Sometimes the space apart makes the heart grow fonder. W sounds like she is enjoying breaking your heart! My H does not know what a W he has I guess! Well here is Truehearts Letter now do not cry as it is a very serious one and he is such a couragous man for writing such a great piece. Please let me know how you feel - I know it should be good for you!

Thank you for taking the time and effort to read this letter. I am writing this in hopes that your BS has brought you here in order that you might understand you are not alone in your thoughts and feelings. It is intended to give you a measure of comfort and hope that you can feel safe as you come out the fog that has enveloped you so tightly over the past weeks, months, or years. I do not know m any of you by name, nor do I know of all the details or circumstances surrounding your life, or your affair(s). What I do know is that we share two very important things in our lives and makes us somewhat connected as a WS. I am hoping that I can help you come back to the light, so that you can come back to the light that has, for so long, shielded you with that dense fog you may still be in. The first thing that we share is the love of a person that totally, completely, and unconditionally stand by our side. Through thick and thin, for better or worse, in our darkest hours, we have someone that has always believed in us, and still does. They have put up with our lies, our anger, our accusations, and maybe in some cases verbal and/or physical abusiveness. They have watched us trash us the things they believed in more than anything in the world...our marriage, our vows, our trust and our love. In spite of it all, they see in us their hopes, their dreams, and their futures. They can't, nor do they want to, see themselves without us for the rest of their lives. They accept our imperfections and our infidelity as we have strayed from that which we know is wrong. They have continued to believe in us and want to help us right the ship and stay the course. They are willing to forgive us, grant us our mistakes, and come home to rebuild that life and make it better. They know they are not perfect, as well. They know they have made mistakes. They need us to open up, talk to them and give them answers so that they can learn, heal, and help repair the damage. They will accept their responsibility in these things. Can you? We, most of us, alsoe have children that look at us, and see only the love of a Mom or a Dad. They don't see us as imperfect, scared, or angry. They see us as a shelter, a safe haven where they can laugh, cry, hurt, be silly or serious, and tell us their fears or fantasies. We are their safety net when they fall. They look to us for answers in life, no matter how big or small the answers are. Our life changed, no matter much we didn't want it to when we helped create that life. We owe our children the best chance to learn from us. We owe them our unconditional, total, and complete love, so that they can start on the journey with as few bumps and bruises as possible. They look to you for truth in their lives. To deny them that chance, is a travesty. You took an oath, in your heart and mind, to protect and defend and teach YOUR child, as soon as they were created. So, you see, you have people in your life that believe in you, love you, accept you, want you, need you, cherish you, and the list goes on and on. I know for a fact, that many of you, when with the OP, badmouth your spouse. You tell the OP how they do all the right things, fill you up, make you feel alive, do all the things your spouse does not, or used to do. You tell this person they are everything you ever wanted. They arouse you, they make you happy...interesting how you told your spouse that at one time too. And, the truth is, if you were to search your heart, you are not letting them do that now. They want to, they beg you to let them try...you justify your A, by telling them "I just don't feel that for you anymore", "I don't know if I want to be married anymore", "I dont know what I want", and a myriad of other flimsy reasons and excuses to buy time to spend with the OP. You give justifications that are so superficial they can't hold water. We even search our minds to think of everything that our spouse ever did, no matter how insignificant, how long ago it was, in order to make us feel better about cheating. We can find any reason to blame our spouse for US deciding and making a conscious choice to cheat and find a reason to say it is ok. What we should be doing is finding every reason for our BS to forgive us. We should be finding every reason to stay together, to come home, to make it right, to be a family...loving and supportive, forgiving and trusting. And you know what? Those reasons are there...everyday...the smile, the laugh, the tears, the love....they are there each and everyday!! Just look!!!The second thing we share is the fact that we are all weak!! I know full well the pain, anger, frustration, fear, embarrassment, passion, fun, laughter, love, fear, and all the rest of the wide range of emotions of having an A. I know what is like to have that OP fill up your senses...so full and so fast you wonder how you ever made it without them. The sex is great, the passion is overwhelming, you can't wait to see them, touch them, hear them...all the while drifting further and further from your marriage...lost in the fog. NO matter how we justify it, that other person...is a cheater, as well. They know we are married and they choose to cheat with us. And in many cases, probably have before, and have told the other person they are with, all the same, exact things they tell us. "You are my soulmate" "you are the only one for me" etc etc. We have heard em all and said em all. We have been told they can make us happy "for the rest of our lives". WE have been so blinded by it all, that we give up family and friends we have had for years, in order for this OP to feel safe with us and convince them how we feel. We take all the energies that we don't use at home, and give them to someone "new". We spend money, time, and energy to build something with someone exciting, instead of spending that with someone that knows us and truly loves us. You see, the truth is, that we, both members of the affair, are very good at one thing....telling each other exactly what we want to hear. We put together elaborate speeches, write poetry, find mushy cards, send the "perfect" gifts, say the right things...all for this other person. Both of us continue to hone our "cheating" skills to the point of perfection. What ever happened to doing that to your spouse, instead of leaving them at the side of the road with a flat tire? We have derailed their entire life and emotionally checked out...in order to make us feel better about the affair. That simply isn't right. We took years to build something. We may have taken several years to weaken the foundation of it. But in one simple night of lust, and that is what it is, lust, we tried to destroy it. If we truly "loved" this person, if we truly believed what we were doing is right, true, and good, there would be no indecision on our part. There would be no hesitancy at all. The bottom line is that, you can trust the person you are cheating with less than you can trust yourself. It is a proven fact that only 25% of all affairs ever make it. Deep down in your heart, you still love your spouse, and you know it. You don't want to give up the excitement and passion you have found. The truth is that your marriage will never again go back to what it was. The blind faith in each other is gone....it is replaced with doubt and fear. The wonderful thing is that you now have a chance to "rediscover" your spouse, your marriage, and your family. It is not as hard as you may think, but will take some dedication on your part. But the beauty of the whole thing is you will be stronger and more in love than you ever thought you could be. You create new memories, new routines, a new life. You re-commit, reinvest your time and energies in that which truly loves you. The truth is most affairs end when the OP either gets what they thought they needed from you, and even more of them end when the OP finds another WS. Oddly enough, you weren't enough for them either. In the end you are left with no loving spouse, no children, no family, no friends.....and your OP that was so steadfastly dedicated to you is off romping with "the love of their life". I know from whence I speak, my friends. I know of the pain, the sorrow, the hurt, the look in my childrens eyes when I left the house. I hear the sounds of my W crying, begging, pleading, and hurting. I now see what a fool I was. I now spend everyday, more happy than I ever thought I could be. If the world were to end tomorrow, she would know I loved her as no other. No, she won't ever forget about the A, and along the way, there will be things that will trigger her mind, but, she has forgiven. You need to talk to your spouse to help them. YOU are the only one that can help them. They need you, much more now than ever before. You have to swallow that pride of yours, for them to heal. You have to open your life up to them, and hide nothing. You have to make it about them. The affair was making it about you, so now you owe it to them, no matter how embarrassed you are, no matter how much you don't wnat to talk about it, to make it about them. Their piece of mind, their feelings are all that matter. They know, from being here, what they need to do in order to help meet your needs. It is now up to you, to learn what you need to do in order to meet theirs. And make no mistake about it, it will be hard work, but it is oh so worth it!! This person you married, is willing to work with you in order to show you the love you deserve!! Are you willing to work to show them how much you truly love them?? By being here, at Marriage Builders, they have shown that they are willing to adopt the principles that it takes to put their marriage back together. They have pledged their love, and even their support, to your recovery, as well as theirs. They have accepted the crumbs you have offered them, while knowing full well you were at the buffet with the other person in your life. You have one of the strongest, most committed, most wonderful, loving, and caring people in the world on your side. Don't expect them not be angry from time to time. Don't expect them to be perfect, let you off the hook, and not talk about it with you. They need and want to understand you and all the things surrounding what happened. It is part of the healing process. What you can expect is love, honesty, and the rebuilding of your marriage. They know what it takes to make things work now. They also know that they, as well as you, have to be stronger than ever before in their life, if this is going to work. That is why they are still here...they understand. They even know, that you may backslide in the beginning, but are willing to deal with that, in order to preserve and protect that which they believe in ......YOU. I implore you, WS, burn off the fog. See the sand that is your foundation for the affair. There is no solid basis for this relationship..it is all smoke and mirrors that reflects this "love" you have found. Run, do not walk, back home and give your marriage all the energy, gifts, poems, cards, and love that you have given to the affair. The results are remarkable. But you have to be willing to be honest with yourself, first of all. You have to admit there is a problem, and you have to be willing to fix it, with your spouse, a counselor, whatever or whoever it takes to fix it. You have to be willing to want to be there in mind, body, and spirit. You will find a love more wonderful than anything you knew before. I hope this helps, in some way, to show you what life can be after an affair. I know that I am blessed with the most wonderful person. I was given the opportunity to feel what life was like without her, and it was not what I wanted. I found the answers I sought...I found them both here, and in her arms. I can only hope, that in some small way, you find the same thing, and that I helped the fog to lift. If you ever wish to talk to someone who understands what we WS go through, then feel free to write me...trueheart42@hotmail.com. There is a path back home. You need only choose it! Keep the faith!*Out of our greatest fears, come our bravest deeds!*Trueheart

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Wow, Thanks LoveNcare.

Trueheart's letter gives me hope that perhaps one day my wife will come out of the fog and we can start on the road to recovery.

I would love to show her the letter in hopes of it changing her or making something dawn on her. However, I will not because of her mindset right now. I have already tried "educating" her and probably shouldn't have. If someday she does come back to work on the marriage (her fog lifts), I will show it too her then to give her support.

In the meantime I continue to work on myself. I know Plan A is a narrow path (it is also quite a long one!) I have to becareful that I don't let my wife's actions/words knock me off the path.

When I saw her briefly on Tuesday, she asked me why I told her sister's husband that OM was laughing when I saw them together at the beach all those months ago. She said he wasn't laughing, and if anything they were both in shock. I told her I just wanted to truth to be known and I saw what I saw or thought I saw. She said "thought you saw" or "saw" are two different things. I told her that is what I saw, and that is the truth. She accused me of trying to get her family to hate OM. I said I don't want to get involved, I told him months ago, and that I'm trying to work on changing myself now.

She also said that her sister and her husband "saw" her Saturday night at a dance club (I assume with OM but my wife purposely didn't say - she was hesistant to say anthing). Interestingly enough, I was supposed to meet my sister-in-law and her husband at the club that that night but they never called me back. Later they told me their phone didn't work and I didn't miss anything. (Perhaps the real reason is that because my wife showed up with OM, they wanted to protect me from seeing her/them.) My wife asked me not to talk to them about it. hmmm...

I am curious but I think I should just focus on myself and not get distracted or thrown from the path by WW's actions/words. As Steve Harley said to me, my wife and I are not in recovery.

On another note, our wedding anniversary is on Aug. 8th. Steve H. recommends I don't go overboard but also not to skip it either. I'm planning on giving her a card and a little something. I will ask her to dinner and if/when she turns me down I will scale it back to lunch. I am not going to expect anything.

My wife did made a point of telling me the other day that "coincidentally" her date of moving to her new apartment is the 8th. I have a feeling my wife will try to avoid me completely that day. Who ever heard of a moving day on a Thursday? Usually it is the end of the month or first or the 15th.

In many ways, right now, my wife thinks/feels she is very sure about her new life and the direction it is going. She does feel guilty sometimes that I'm hurt/hurting and just wants to let me down easy in some ways. She hopes that I will get over her/stop loving her already so things will be easier for her (as well as she hopes her family will accept OM with open arms.) I don't see either of those things happening any time soon.

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Hello aanast -- Steve Harley is giving you sound advice and if you go back and read through your posts from the beginning you will see how much better you are doing.

Plan A is a narrow path and it is damn hard. I have no idea whether my WH's A has completely ended, but I can tell you that things are getting better. He is no longer angry and seems truly confused. Time is what you need. Time to do a good plan A where you work on making yourself happy and time to give your WW to work through her confusion.

I am almost out of steam but am seeing some improvement in terms of my WH's ability to talk and for us to spend more time together. He has been out of the house since January and plan A has been absolutely the hardest thing I have ever done. It is only within the last 4 and half months that it has been consistent with no LBs and focus on me.

I know that within a few weeks there will either be dramatic improvement or I will go to plan B. I know I will be ready because I have put my heart and soul into this and have found a new level of patience and completely set aside my pride to try and keep this relationship alive.

Keep focused on planA and look for small changes. I kept thinking that I would see bigger changes sooner despite what I read on this forum/this website. Have faith in those that have walked this path before you and Steve Harley. The whole thing (Affairs) are so irrational that you have to chuck out the window all of the things that you think make sense and have faith that patience and love and demonstrating those changes will eventually slice through the fog into your WW's heart.

My thoughts are with you.

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unsureheart,

Thanks as always for your reply. You're right about Plan A. As much as I've read it here, I so much want it to be about changing my wife or thinking it will automatically end her A and get her back. I get impatient and wish and wish and wish. I have to focus on Plan A being about me. Somehow that makes me feel like I can continue longer (despite the rollercoaster of emotions my WW sends my way.) I will not try but *do* my best for as long as I can in Plan A.

I sincerely wish you the best with you and your husband. You mentioned you may only continue this for a few more weeks?
Why a few weeks?
Do you feel you are near the end of your patience/love/ability to not LB?
What then, Plan B?
Have you counselled with the Harley's?

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aanast -- To answer your questions. Yes, I have been counseling with Jennifer Harley Chalmers and she thinks it is almost time to go to plan B for the following reasons: a) my love bank is draining as he probably continues the EA (at least it's not PA I guess although it's not particularly comforting), b) he has stopped individual counseling for his other issues; mainly depression, c) he will not agree to MC, and d) he is in a "having his cake and eating it" mode whereby he gets a great deal of emotional support from me but cannot make a decision.

My rollercoaster (as you can see by my profile below) has been going on a LONG time before I really knew what was specifically wrong (the A) and my love bank was draining pre knowledge of the A.

I still don't know if I'm ready for plan B, but I'm getting really worn out and my WH just seems too comfortable sitting in limbo.

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WOW!! Just lurking and haven't read this whole thread, but Truehearts letter was amazing. It gives me hope for all of us. I wish all out WS's would read it.

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unsureheart-

Well, from what I've read, it *seems* like your reasons a) and d) are two very important reasons to go to Plan B.

As for reason a) (probably the most important reason to go to Plan B), once your love is all gone and you go into the withdraw stage and/or LB, your M will have little of a chance of success (according the MB principles.)

As for reason d), if your WH is still getting some needs met by you (even though you are separated), Plan B will stop that. A WS may try to get all needs met by OP. But as SAA says "most lovers fail when put to the test."

Going to Plan B (for me at least), seems like the hardest thing to do. It seems very scary because sometimes an O.R. does work out and, as it says on this website, "With Plan A/B, there is no guarantee. Once separated, couples often never do reconcile."

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I still don't know if I'm ready for plan B, but I'm getting really worn out and my WH just seems too comfortable sitting in limbo.
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Can you take a mini break from the whole thing and do something for yourself? Go on a trip for the weekend or something away from WH? Just a thought.

As for Plan B, one thing I've noticed from this forum is that a BS often does many drafts of the Plan B letter before actually giving it to the WS. If/when you're more sure about Plan B and you do a letter, you may want to do a bunch of drafts many days in advance to read, reread, ponder, and fine-tune as your prepare for Plan B.

My thoughts are with you, whatever happens.

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HI Aanast2 and AJR,
I am sorry I did not get right back and write to you. I just have been busying myself while my WH is confused and denying an A which I have cell phone proof, did a reverse on the phone numbers and got a name and address! He is telling me really weird things and Thank God he moved out in May as I do not know if I could handle this any better with him here. Trueheart told me to send it to him as I have done a no contact letter. He was here on Sun a week after! Does not understand no contact! He did not read all of it yet. He immediatly started demanding - like wanting to come home and a contract - his terms if he does! H has alot of material things here! Maybe worried or going to try to get them out while he is here? Oh boy got my goat as he is not coming home without counseling - lots of it and a better attitude. He is not showing any remorse or love and is cold when he speaks, but asks for a kiss when he left. I just cry. This is so very hard on me as I do love him with all my heart. I know what he is going through and just do not know how to help him and at the same time I am hurt, angry.
I am also in hopes of the WS letter knocking some sense into him as an A is not the answer when your whole life is at stake! I am a good wife work, eat and sleep and bought him all he ever wanted in tools and other things. I did have withdrawl from him as he changed a year ago with no apparent reason that I could find. I did think though it was pain as he has a few problems. Boy what a shock when you don't see it coming! I forgot to duck! I did not know of this site and boy I could have used it and maybe this would not have gotten out of control! Well just hang in there and do send that letter aanast2, send it for her Birthday and add it was from the bottom of your heart with all the love you have for her! I cried like a baby when I read it as they just do not know what they are doing to us or themselves. Where does trading partners get them? I have never looked at another man as I am another trueheart! Good luck as I wanted to share that one! Let me know if it works Please!

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aanst -- Thanks for your thoughts. I am still as confused as my WH appears to be about what I should do. I thankfully have an appointment with a therapist tomorrow that knows the situation pretty well. I really need some encouragement to keep going. It seems worse when the WW/WH give you any shred of hope. Here's my latest. update

Any news on your situation?

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dear aanast,
Keep on doing what you are doing, I know things will continue to get harder but it shows that as long as you are true to yourself and know you are doing all you can and what is right then it wont seem so hopeless and wont hurt as much. I just came back from jordan... I will be in chicago on the 3rd... maybe who knows- we can get in touch... please keep this to yourself. My hopes and prayers are with you and you know Im here if you need me.
your sister,
Lena

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LoveNCare,

Thanks for your reply. I have to agree with you. If my WW lived with me still, I don't know if I could keep doing this as long as I have. While I didn't want her to leave and I want her back, it is tough to resist LBing sometimes. Good luck with your situation. I found it best to just be a good listener when one's spouse is ranting and raving and angry. I don't make any statements to agree or disagree. I just listen and summarize back what has been said to me and as for clarification/if I'm understanding correctly.

Unsureheart, I know what you mean about encouragement. When I'm feeling those low points and doubts, I really need it too. You and I both don't want to throw away/ruin all the hard work/time/patience we've been doing by quitting early or LBing. I wish I could magically send you more encouragement to hang in there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

One thing that helps me keep going is understanding myself. I think of myself as having my emotional side (similar to Taker) and rational/intellectual side (similar to Giver). My brain tells me, matter of factly, that I should keep up what I've been doing and not give up or LB because the best chance for my marriage is Plan A.

Easier said then done when my emotions kick in. When that happens it is hard to want to keep going because of pain and sadness. I start doubting if her A will ever end, if she'll ever choose me, if I'm better off without her, etc. It is hard to focus on the intellectual side of me when I'm feeling emotional.

However, what helps is noticing patterns. When I'm busy through the day, I don't think too much about my WW and situation, hence I don't get emotional, I don't feel miserable, and I feel like I can keep this up for a while.

When I first wake up or go to bed I think about how my marriage might not survive, about missing my wife, and whether or not she is going to file for divorce soon, etc. I also get sad and frustrated after I've seen or talked to my WW. I try to talk about it with someone soon afterwards. Getting it off my chest seems to help. Also, since I don't see her often I also seem to not feel that way as often.

So basically knowing when the "hard" times occur for me helps. I tell myself not to make any life-altering decisions during that time. I let it pass and overall I just try to focus and spend more time on being with friends, keeping myself busy, doing things to keep me sane through all this! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I know it might sound like I'm trying to avoid/escape the pain but to a certain extent I think that is necessary in order to keep in Plan A for as long as possible. Plus I'm not totally ignoring my problems nor drinking or getting someone new or anything. I'm trying to be strong and consistent through all this. I'm not very religious but my father-in-law told me the story of Job which was inspiring.

One who cares- thanks for your support as always. I would love to see you. Please email me.

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Here's an update to my situation-

Last Saturday, July 27th, I spent the day helping my father-in-law and uncle setup for for a huge annual fundraising pinic they organize. They needed the help and I was more than happy to help them. I also thought of it as a way of becoming a more thoughtful person and changing for the better (part of my Plan A). Later that day my WW showed up at the picnic saw me, said it was too hot, mentioned that my helping out was a first, and left.

I've also been helping my in-laws with their computer at work. Playing volleyball with them. They are happy to see me and I them.

A day later or so after the picnic my WW got angry with me saying that I never wanted to help her family before and I should stay away from them and her family's friends so they can all get used to the idea of us not being together. I just listened.

Friday, Aug 2., she came over to the house again (perhaps under the pretense?) to get her mail. We chatted for awhile about the good news in the family. Her sister is pregnant. I'm so happy for them, it is nice to finally hear some good news.

My WW said I'm probably kicking myself now knowing that in recent months before she left me I wanted kids, when for years and years she did (and I wanted to wait). I told her she is right I *am* kicking myself and told her my regrets and apologized (again) for my part in this situation, not meeting her needs of attention, taking her for granted.

She got a bit angry with me because everyone thinks of her as the bad guy; everyone is taking my side. She said I want everyone to take my side and am manipulating them to take my side because I told them about OM. I told her I was just telling the truth. I also told her that the few family members I've talked to about this know my part in all this. I have told them my regrets and how I neglected her. She thanked me for that. (I guess she thinks if people think she has a reason for leaving/divorcing me, then it is ok in her mind.)

I suggested lunch to her and she said ok (a first in a long time). We ordered in - a pizza with her favorite toppings of course. She told me that she would be coming over next week to get some things from the house (decorative stuff mostly that she said I wouldn't care about.) I told her that I don't agree with her moving out but I'll help her with the stuff. She said she doesn't want me helping her move into her own apartment. I said I'd help her at least pack her car.

She thanked me for "doing her the favor with the house." She said by making mortgage payments (since she is not contributing financially anymore) I'm helping her with her investment. She said she has been buying/spending/charging a lot for new new place etc. She is going on vacation for a week this month. She is thinking about leasing a new car in January. (She is going money crazy it seems.) She said she is counting on getting her equity out of the house next year to pay off her debt and help her start her new dream business. She said she does not know how a divorce factors into the house situation but doesn't want to kick me out of the house since I want to be there.

She again mentioned that she will be talking to lawyers soon about divorcing me. While she has been saying this all summer, now that she isn't so busy looking for an apartment, perhaps she will. Plus, she will be returning to her work at the end of August and will have her other coworkers' support/encouragement (the one who is unhappily married and friends with OM, plus another one who is divorced) to get a divorce.

After lunch, she proceeded to lie on our bed, and I proceeded to massage her. (Lately when she comes over that is our "routine".) This time she did not say anything or resist the massage. She did say something like "I should not be laying on my own bed."

We talked more. I mostly listened to her. She seemed to be someone with a lot of problems. She was especially distraught over how her mother swears at her, insults her, verbally abuses her over the OM. Her mom says that my WW is causing marital problems between her parents now and if they get divorced it is her fault. She wishes her mom would be like her dad. He says he loves her but is sad and thinks she better be sure before trading in one set of problems for another.

My WW added that no one else should be hurt by this. She said there is only one victim in all of this and that is me.

She also added that she doesn't think what she is doing is wrong at all.

She asked me what I'm going to say if I bring a date over and she sees pictures of us. (I thought to myself, what a ridiculous question.) I told her that we are married and I not dating someone nor do I plan to.

She asked me if I would still be her friend after she divorces me. She said she wouldn't be able to be mine if I did this to her. I told her I love her now and am married to her now and that I don't know what will happen in the future. She didn't seem to like that answer.

I reminded her of my desire for us, our marriage. She said she knows this already. (I hope I didn't get too educational.) I wanted her to know that there was still hope for our marriage and that there are couples out there in our situation that still work things out.

I mentioned counseling again. I said if she spoke to Steve Harley it would not mean she is making a commitment to our marriage but just so we can both learn from this, from our mistakes, whatever happens. She said she doesn't need counseling. She knows what happened between us.

She said we started living two separate lives. I lost the emotional connection with her. She added that I am *not capable* of meeting her emotional needs. So she went elsewhere for them. And she said she is not capable of commitment. So, she said we are not meant to be.

I didn't say anything in response to that. I wished I said (or she believed) that people can change. I believe that I am capable and so is she because we once were *and* now we know better (or at least I do.)

She asked me what is she is right and very happy in the future, etc. I responded with what if you are wrong? She replied with "well I'll just win you back."

She left soon after that. I told her I love her.

I saw her again briefly that evening at her sister's place. She was distant. I notice that around people she is most distant from me but when we are alone she is not. I also notice that she contacts me (after I haven't seen or talked to her for a few days) and when she does she is less angry/distant with me than whenever I see her at a family function or contact her.

Only time will tell what happens from here. I will continue my plan A. I know I can outlast OM if that is what it comes down too. However, it is likely she will divorce me first (before A dies.)

Thanks for listening. As always I appreciate any comments.

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aanast -- Your last post about how she tends to withdraw more when she is around her family or others that she thinks are unapproving of A I think is pretty common. The wayward spouse is so consumed with guilt when they are with those (most people on the planet) that don't approve of an A that they become more negative and withdrawn.

I was thinking of you with your anniversary coming up -- are you still going to get her a card and invite her to dinner? Maybe just inviting her to lunch is a better idea for two reasons 1) you will look like you care but it won't look like too much and 2) you won't be setting yourself up for disappointment. Have you talked to Steve H. about this?

Also -- what does aanast stand for? I don't expect you to reveal your name as this is an anonmymous board for the most part -- I'm just curious because my last name starts with two aa, which is fairly unusual.

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Unsureheart,

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The wayward spouse is so consumed with guilt when they are with those (most people on the planet) that don't approve of an A that they become more negative and withdrawn.
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That makes sense. She did say that anyone who doesn't know me agrees with what she is doing. She says that those who do know me think of me as Mr. Nice guy but don't really know what it is like to live with me. She said the other day that she can't believe how long she stayed with me.

Her family has told me that she doesn't talk about OM but does talk about her apartment etc. Her brother is helping her move out on Saturday.

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I was thinking of you with your anniversary coming up -- are you still going to get her a card and invite her to dinner? Maybe just inviting her to lunch is a better idea for two reasons 1) you will look like you care but it won't look like too much and 2) you won't be setting yourself up for disappointment. Have you talked to Steve H. about this?
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I've got the card and I'm going to give her a box of chocolate. Yes I talked to SH about this. He said start with dinner but be prepared for rejection and scale it back to lunch. At this point in the day (today is our 4th year anniversary), she is working so I guess lunch is out of the question. I'm hoping I get to see her today. I'm going to swing by her parents this afternoon (when she should be back from work) and I'll ask her out to dinner (I'm expecting her to say no) and then scale it back to grabbing a bite really quick/ordering in something. We'll see what happens.

I dreamt last night that we had a great day together and I literally picked her up off her feet and brought her home. It was nice and then I woke up.

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Also -- what does aanast stand for? I don't expect you to reveal your name as this is an anonmymous board for the most part -- I'm just curious because my last name starts with two aa, which is fairly unusual.
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It is the first letter of my first name and then the first 5 letters of my last name (which is much longer.) It was an old email address I had in college which just stuck. So actually my last name does not start with two aa like yours.

How are things with you going? I tried that link you posted above but could not get it to work.

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aanast -- Good luck tonight. Did Steve say it was a bad idea to call her in advance about dinner? Just curious about why it might be a better idea to just show up and ask. I'm always wrestling with when do I invite my WH to join me in various things. He seems to think it's ok to ask me to do things last minute/make no plans. Very frustrating (but at least he's asking).

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Unsureheart -

Steve and I did not talk about the particulars of how to ask (e.g. over the phone or in person.)

I personally decided to just show up because I believe that over the phone would have been a no on all accounts.

Here's what did happen:

Before I saw her on our anniversary I happened to find a card from OM to her.

The card said something like "I Believe." "I believe in your love for me and hope you believe in my love for you. I love you, mi amor. -tu gordo"
(which is an affectionate way of saying in spanish "your fat one". OM is fat, I'm not. This may explain why lately when my wife hugs me she says I'm so skinny. While I have lost some weight, I'm not that much slimmer than I have been while we were together.)

Anyway, the snooping just hurts me (I'm not going to tell her I found it as she will be very angry with me not giving her privacy) but I guess the card shows me that she is deep in an affair right now (no end in sight?) and they feel love for each other (which I knew already but seeing it in writing/reality hurts nonetheless.)

I showed up at her parents in the late afternoon when I knew she'd be back from work and be alone. I brought her mail (i.e. the usual "official" reason we communicate) and had a box of chocolates snuck in between the mail.

Initially she was a bit upset. She said "I knew it. I knew you'd show up because of what today is."

I told her that yes we both know what today is - our anniversary of four years of marriage.

She saw the chocolate too and said she wouldn't eat it and would just give it to her mom. Then she said ok maybe she'd eat some of it.

We chatted briefly while she looked through her mail and victoria secret catalogs, etc. (again this is typical of when we first see each other - kinda breaking the ice.)

I asked her if she'd like to go out to dinner (expecting the no.) She said no because I would be celebrating or something. I immediately scaled it back to lunch. I said well I'm hungry and I'm going to grab a bite to eat. I'm going to order... do you want anything. When I put it that way she said ok and we shared a meal together a little while later.

Shortly afterward I left and gave her a card which basically reiterated that I can't change the past and my failures in the past but that I'm willing, able, and actively changing and becoming a better person now. I added that we can have a great marriage and reconnection, that people can change if they want to, and that I care, miss, and love her.

I also had a good cry on the drive back home.

I spoke with her parents later that night. While they knew she was getting her own apartment, they did not know she was moving out of their house the next day. They are having some marital problems because of what is going on with my wife and I. My Mother-in law feels that they should be tough with their daughter, maybe even disown her completely. My Father-in law disagrees. He loves his daughter (she is daddy's little girl) and while he disagrees with what she is doing and has told her so, he says he will have to accept OM and any possible children etc if my wife divorces me. He would like to do more to help me and my marriage with his daughter but he does not know what else to say or do. (We all agreed that he has the biggest influence over her.)

Other than what he has already said to my WW, I'm not sure what he could say or do. Any suggestions?

The following day my WW came over to get some of her stuff (it was moving day for her.) She was not very organized. I helped her load her car with stuff and remained pleasant throughout, though I felt very sad during the course of her taking things. It was not because of losing the material items, but just the physical act of her leaving. Just reality hitting me again.

She took dishes and china cabinet things and made a big mess of items in the center of our living room floor. In the nicest way possible I tried to encourage her to only take what she could fit in her car and leave the rest for another time.

She decided against my advice and I still (3 days later and counting) have a pile of dishes, vases, and other items scattered around my living room floor.

Oh well, the mess doesn't really bother me. It was just interesting (I guess that is the word) to see my wife running around like a chicked without its head on.

So Saturday the furntiure store delivered her thousands of dollars worth of new stuff (which she bought on credit) to her apartment. She has been sleeping there since Friday. The apartment is also not in a very good area of the city. I'm worried about her safety there. I told her that but she brushed it off saying her parking spot is only a few feet away from the back door.

Sunday I saw her again at a family celebration of her sister's pregnancy. We barely spoke as she avoided me but when we did it was casual. At the end of the night I hugged her goodbye. She didn't want to (lately she has been very resistant to me hugging her goodbye. I guess I should stop doing that because perhaps I look pathetic and needy??) and told me that I'm just hurting myself. I asked why. She said I know why.

I'm sure she'll be back one of these days for the pile of stuff and more.

She'll be changing her mailing address soon. She won't have an "official" reason to contact me, if I don't have her mail.

I'm hesistant to try to contact/pursue her because my experience with her is when I contact her she gets upset and thinks of me as pathetic (e.g. I should accept that "we are over.")

However, when she contacts/sees me, she is usually in a better mood and more likely to let me meet her needs.

I wonder what the future holds.

Perhaps now that she has her own apartment, she will divorce me soon? Or perhaps now that she has her own apartment, reality will burst her fantasy bubble, the A will die, and she want to work on the M?

Either way I'll be ok.

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aanast -- obviously I hope that being in her own apartment will be a dose of reality and the A will die. The thing that I think is good about this is that she will not be at her parents and feeling as if she is "being controlled". Now I know that's a lot of fog baloney, but it appears that is how she feels.

I would box up the stuff she left in the middle of your living room floor. Leaving it there will just make you sad. It was very sad helping my WH move out six months ago.

Yes I do think based on the card you saw that the A is going full on -- but it's really hard to say that definitively because it's OM's interpetation of where things are not your WW.

She does seem less angry with you and more able to spend "normal" time with you and YOU sound better -- plan A is working for you.

Keep us posted.

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unsureheart, as always, thanks for your reply.

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obviously I hope that being in her own apartment will be a dose of reality and the A will die.
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Thanks, obviously I'm hoping the same.

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The thing that I think is good about this is that she will not be at her parents and feeling as if she is "being controlled". Now I know that's a lot of fog baloney, but it appears that is how she feels.
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I hope so, as are her parents. Everyone seems to be hoping that she'll get a taste of independence, realize things, miss me, and come back.

She does still visit her parents everyday, goes over for dinner etc.

It's obvious to me she moved out from our home because of OM and she moved out from her parents' because of OM. As she has told me many times "she wants to be able to see and be with whomever she wants and can only do that in her own place." Now that there is no more "control" over who she sees/what she does, maybe the secret/fantasy relationship will end.

(on a side note, I'm concerned that because OM works two jobs and if I'm to believe my WW that she "rarely sees him", the A will be prolonged)

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I would box up the stuff she left in the middle of your living room floor. Leaving it there will just make you sad.
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Good idea but she came over yesterday and took the stuff. I helped her load the car. She said she will come again to get more clothes and other stuff here and there.

While she was over we chatted about things, laughed together, and ate lunch. I tried to smile and be positive.

She told me about her neighbors in the apartment above her playing loud music and taking her parking space. I listened and gave her advice when she asked.

Overall, our interaction was pleasant. We had no physical contact. When I snuck in the "I love you" as she was leaving, she responded with "don't tell me that" and drove away.

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Yes I do think based on the card you saw that the A is going full on -- but it's really hard to say that definitively because it's OM's interpetation of where things are not your WW.
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I'm guessing that the A is definately full on because I've also seen my WW's cellphone bill (which is in the hundreds of dollars) and is pretty much all calls to OM's number multiple times a day.

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She does seem less angry with you and more able to spend "normal" time with you and YOU sound better -- plan A is working for you.
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She is definately less angry with me (less withdrawal's from my love bank.) This jives with her wanting to just be friends with me. Perhaps she is doing this so if/when she divorces me things will go smoothly for her?

I agree I'm feeling much better than months ago. What helps a lot is filling my time/days with friends and hobbies and this site. Plan A is working for me. Being separated has its advantages in that I don't know if I could continue Plan A without LBing if she was living here and still continuing A.

However, I also can't help but wish that my waiting will be worth it (i.e. my WW ends A and comes back to work on M.)

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aanast -- I know how you feel about it being somewhat ok you're separated because it keeps you from love-busting. Some days I am really glad I did not see him every day; especially while the A was ongoing. It was so awful before d-day I don't know how I would have had the patience to not lovebust.

Since the A has ended (although he still misses OW), I have wished more and more he was home so that we could try and regret the separation.

Your WW will get that dose of reality; especially if she's never really been alone in life. It can be a very hard adjustment and isn't the non-stop fun she imagines it to be.

Have a good weekend aanast. I'll look for you next week.

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Part1 -
Hello. I am a forum-neophyte, new at MB and its my first time to post. I have read the thread on this and its just painful for me to see so many people getting hurt w/ this whole A (yes, my acnonyming remains a work in progress) business.

to aanast2. wow. what amazing energy and patience you have. u started posting april, its already august and despite the fact that there is no clear solution in sight - you are still persevering to make things work out.

to the others who came before me and had advised you to go on and not give up and remain faithful to your Plan A until kingdom come - please forgive me if I offer a dissenting opinion here.

i think as per my experience, i could give evryone following this saga a fresh perspective on what is going on.

Mrs. WS here is experiencing a well-nurtured OM addiction. Nobody is between them, not even the people who love them and care for them and so those who hope of seeing this end are in for a longgggggggggg wait - until reality bites these
two, if reality comes at all. do not be deceived by the mortality statistics of affairs - some of them do wreck the curve and become full-blown relationships. the truth hurts but knowing it will cushion you from the pain of unrealized hopes and expectations.

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