Ok, I really need advice on this one. I was at home with W and kids when OM calls. Then she talks to him with me standing right there in front of her cooking dinner!!!! Then she gets upset with me for being upset!!! Granted it wasn't a pleasent converstaion (she was mad at him for breaking a date), but c'mon already!! I was just beginning to think we were making some progress, then this! I am thinking of going into Plan B now, but I've only been doing Plan A for a short while (D-day was 8/2/02). This one really hurt. We had a decent conversation afterwards, and she cried about how sorry she was (for hurting me, not for A), and I was I believe, very calm about it. But I just don't think I can take any more of thisl. I know I've seen many BS's work Plan A for a year or more, but I don't think my heart can take that long. That was a huge LB for me. She still insists she needs to date both of us to see what she wants, and admits that she is using both of us but seems ok with it. The only positive I can see is that she seems truly remousefull for hurting me. Any BS's or WS's with any wise words? I am planning my Plan B letter even now.

MTD,
It's hard to give you advice. Your W and mine sound a lot alike. Lots of remorse, etc., but no real change in action--and not enough empathy to do what is right and treat you like a human being. I just went to Plan B because I got fed up with all talk no action, and I'm kind of sorry I didn't do it sooner. I have become really ambivalent about the possibility of reconciling. So I would say, ask yourself a few questions: what is best for your own well-being? are you sure you want to reconcile? if so, how much of Plan A can you take before your "bank account" dwindles.

Two things, mtd...

One, get call block on your home phone and block the OM's number. I did that, but I don't think the OM has the cojones to call here anyway.

Two, this is all pretty fresh to you, so please consider going to your doctor and getting on some mild anti-depressants. They will help you deal with these difficult feelings in a rational manner.

Read read read!

ST

First of all....I don't know your whole story as I don't come over to this part of the message boards that often......but......

One of the things that gets me is the fact that a WS says that they need to date BOTH the OP and the S (spouse) to see what they want.

HELLO!!!!!

By doing this you are enabeling her relationship with the OM.

Of course she is ok with it....she's getting her cake and eating it too....and will continue to do so until either YOU or the OM take yourselves out of the picture.

Mind you it's not a fix for the M.....but it eases up the BS's pain. I myself did not go into a full blown Plan B.....but applied it in my own way.

Your W was being very disrespectful of your feelings to take that call from the OM. She should have told him to call back at a better time....preferably when you were not there.

Sometimes as a BS we have to finally make that decision to stand up for ourselves and say....I'm not going to let you do this to me anymore. It is our decision afterall.....it's proven that our WS's will do whatever WE allow them to do to us.

Thanks for the advice. I wrote my Plan B letter but I'm not sure if I'm quite ready to give it to her. I like your idea MissPriss, I think I will continue with my seperation for now and detatch myself from the situation a little. Try and force the OM to fulfill more of her needs while he's still in his M. If possible MP, could you tell me a little about how you applied Plan B? Maybe I could apply my own version.

m_t_d,

Having 3 daughters, I couldn't go to Plan B as there was ALWAYS something my H and I needed to talk about......so I couldn't completely avoid him. (though at the time I wanted to)

My H and I seperated 3 times.....not by MY choice though. The last time he left I decided that I wouldn't call him about anything.....unless I absolutely had to.
For the first 6 weeks I only called to ask him ?'s about the bills...and kept the conversation to a minimum.....no relationship talk at all.

If one of our daughters wanted to talk to him....I dialed the phone # but handed the phone to them before he answered and let them talk or leave a message.

I let him see the girls whenever he wanted....at our house....but left him alone with the girls. Always made sure that I was busy with something else. He is their father afterall and I didn't want to deny him the time with his daughters no matter what he had done to me......but avoided him at all costs.

All this was very hard to do at first.....as the first 2 times that he had left I had begged and pleaded constantly for him to come home and this and that.....I'm sure that was very attractive. NOT!

I guess you could say that I used the Tough Love approach rather than a modified Plan B.....I think that Plan B is almost impossible when you have children.

After 6 weeks of being seperated and avoiding my H....who was still involved with the OW....he started calling me more....talking about nothing really....just calling alot.

I was ready to move on with or without him. I was accepting it.....wish I had done it sooner.

It was so much easier to work on myself when I wasn't concentrating on him and what he was doing or how he was feeling....or even what choice he was going to make.

Anyway.....I got so over that I actually met someone and went out on a date......I think that was a turning point. (I'm in no way saying you should do this)

The day of the date my H called me 17 times from 4:30 a.m. to 5:00 p.m........on my cell phone. He was jelous. He couldn't sit down and couldn't work.....and all of this in front of the OW.

He had been telling me for 6 weeks to go find someone.....and when I did....he couldn't handle it.

After this.....before this actually...his relationship with the OW was already bad....petty arguments....the OW acting like a spoiled child and ranting about stupid things.

My H starting inviting me to do things with him and the girls on his time with them....before he wouldn't as to not raise their hopes. He started inviting to his place for the whole weekend.

While there one weekend the OW called and got mad because he wouldn't bring the girls to her small sons B-day party....even told him that if he didn't want them around her to drop them off somewhere so he could come alone......some nerve.

My H was fed up with her and they ended their relationship mutually 1 week later.

He had been telling me that he was going to end it with her.....and I had told him that I would believe it when I saw it.........I was not pressuring him to be with me at all at this time....I was actually turning him down on some of his invitiations.

Anyway.....to make my very long story short.....the A ended mutually....and within 2 weeks my H was talking about us getting back together and how happy we could be and all that.......and we are.

It took alot of hard work on his part to convince me that it wouldn't happen again and that the OW was completely out of the picture.

Sorry this is so long......but my story is so long with ALOT of twists and turns. Hope that helps.

Sorry Miss Priss, I just read your post. NO it was not too long, it was actually very insightful. I have been doing just that, though almost at the same time my WW began calling me more often. I know it is still too early to believe she is coming out of the fog completely, but it is nice to see her head pop out every now and then. And I have actually turned her down once (though it was because I had prior engagement), but it was nice to hear her disapointment. Not to hurt her, but to know she really wanted to spend time with me. I am glad to know that things are going well for you and I hope my story has a similar ending. Thanks again MP!!!

^

MTD,

Hi, this is C from P's thread at JFO. (The really long one) Generally, I don't intrude into other's threads, but since I saw you posted over there I thought I would read this.

There is no such thing as a modified Plan B. It's like being pregnant or honest, it either is or it's not.

Plan A is a strategy to separate the spouse from the lover. To show that you acknowledge your part in the breakdown of the marriage, and to demonstrate your willingness to be the husband your wife has always wanted. That you can and will avoid LBers and learn to meet her needs.

Nothing else. Plan A cannot and will not restore your marriage while your wife is involved with another man.

You should do Plan A for as long as you can remain pleasant and avoid LBers. But you also need to be radically honest about how badly her affair is affecting you. EVERY time she sees or speaks with OM, you should tell her that it is the worst pain you have ever experienced, that she is tearing your heart apart.

When you find that you are becoming disrespectful.... unable to tell her how you feel without throwing in a few..."your so selfish," or when you find that your feelings for her are lessening, or when you begin to exhibit symptoms of stress (change in apetite, sleep patterns, difficulty concentrating) then it is time to go to Plan B.

Plan B is risky. At first it will push the WS into the arms of the lover. And it's difficult. You will definitely struggle with the overwhelming desire for just a little contact.

Plan B is not about teaching the WS a lesson or forcing her to "wake up." It's sole purpose is to protect you from further pain, from real health risks due to the stress, and of course from further trashing of your LBnk.

The hoped for side effect is that when the A ends, and nearly all do, she will recognize the good work you did in your Plan A, and want to reconcile. That doesn't mean Plan A needs to go on forever. Frankly, it can be done in a letter if the pain is so great that you can't take it. Men generally can hang on in Plan A longer than women. Most women can't do a good Plan A for more than a couple or weeks.

As I said, nearly all affairs end. If you haven't started telling family and friends, you might want to. Opinion is divided on this, but Willard Harley is a STRONG advocate of telling, and I agree. Tell your parents, her parents, your church leader, anyone who would be an advocate for you and your marriage. Affairs don't handle the light of day very well. They exist in a fantasy land of secrecy.

In Plan B, which is absolutely brilliant BTW, the idea is that now she must get all her needs met by OM. Right now, it's a great deal for her. You meet some needs, he meets some needs. Quite the racket. When you cease to meet the needs you are, it will all fall on his shoulders. He cannot possibly measure up.

You mention how she "needs to date you both," (sorry but the time for that was before she said "I do" ) and I think she probably tells you how she would miss him. Well, imagine how she will miss YOU, when you are not there. This OM can NEVER be the parent of her children. He is living in a fantasy land with HER. Introduce children to that mix and he isn't going to look so wonderful.

As she has doubts, and expresses them to OM, you can bet the arguments will ensue. Withdrawals from the LBnk will be in order. The stress of being full time in the real world is a big wake up call to an affair.

Affairs continue often times for as long as the BS allows. Which is not to say that you are at fault. But the two biggest mistakes that are made are:

1. Not being honest about how much her affair is hurting you. Yes, she will be upset and possibly even angry to hear that. But Honesty is NOT a LBer. No matter how she reacts. To be dishonest is however a LBer.

2. Delaying Plan B too long, I see over and over again how BS's wait until they virtually hate the WS before going to Plan B. By then they've fallen into some strong lovebusting patterns of anger and especially disrespect. And since they have not only lost their love for the WS but their LBnk is far in the red, they only want to end the M rather than do the work of recovery when the A ends.

TMD, I don't know your whole story, but the pattern is very familiar. I hope this helps. If you have other things I can help you with, I'm always found at JFO, just ring.

Blessings,

Cerri

---------
5 years intensive study MB principals
Currently enrolled in MB coaching program
I can name chaper and verse for any MB question you have <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ September 02, 2002, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: cerri ]</small>

cerri,

While I respect your opinion.....I do not agree with it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> There is no such thing as a modified Plan B. It's like being pregnant or honest, it either is or it's not.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If EVERYONE here were to do Plan B exactly the same way..or by the book..then we would have to assume that every situation is exactly the same....and we know that is not the case.

Every situation is unique....as is every person.

I've been here for well over a year now and have seen modified versions of all of the MB Principles. I've modified some of the Principles myself....so that they worked for me.

I disagree with this also.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Plan A is a strategy to separate the spouse from the lover. To show that you acknowledge your part in the breakdown of the marriage, and to demonstrate your willingness to be the husband your wife has always wanted. That you can and will avoid LBers and learn to meet her needs.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I never once thought of Plan A as a strategy to seperate my H from the OW. As most all of us know.....the BS has no control over seperating the 2....since we have no control over anyone other than ourselves. I don't think the word strategy has any place in Plan A. It almost makes it sound as if one is planning the way they will get their WS back.....like a game.

I saw Plan A as a way for me to work on myself....once I realized my part in the destruction of my marriage.

Plan A was me working on me.....since I can change no one but me.

To say that one needs to show willingness to the WS that they can be the W or H that the WS always wanted really gets me too.

How about the fact that the WS rarely ever tells the H or W exactly what they want in a spouse. We do not know these things unless we are told about them.

What about the W or H that the BS wants?
I don't agree with the concept of the BS becoming a doormat while waiting for the WS to "make up their mind".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As I said, nearly all affairs end. If you haven't started telling family and friends, you might want to. Opinion is divided on this, but Willard Harley is a STRONG advocate of telling, and I agree. Tell your parents, her parents, your church leader, anyone who would be an advocate for you and your marriage. Affairs don't handle the light of day very well. They exist in a fantasy land of secrecy.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Telling is often the biggest LB.
And to say tell those that would be an advocate for your marriage.....seems like more strategy to me. Like trying to get all these people on your side before the game ends.

This is not a game....and only the H and the W can decide on reconsiliation...and only they can make it work. Telling other will help with being able to talk about it.....but it won't get the marriage back on track.....and often times will backfire and be a HUGE LB.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Affairs continue often times for as long as the BS allows. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The BS is not allowing the affair to continue.....just as we had no control over the beginning of the affair....we have no control over the ending.

The only thing that the BS does is to choose to stay through the duration of the affair.....or end the marriage.

The Harley's say that the affair has to die a natural death.....that means that the BS cannot push it to end....that would be a selfish demand.

The affair has to die on it's own...without any input from the BS. IF the BS pushes the WS to end the affair.....the most likely thing that will happen is that contact will eventually ensue again....and it will go on until it dies a natural death.....by one or both parties deciding not to persue the relationship.

Throughout this whole site things are modified....because the situations and the people are different.

It seems to me that you are saying that t_m_d should not modify anything he sees on this sight to possibly work better for him.....that he should stick to the basics.

Plan B is hard for people with children.......there is no way to take yourself out of the picture completely when children are involved....hence....a modified Plan B.

Quite fankly...some people are often too scared to go into Plan B......so they modify it....and sometimes it works.

Just as sometimes Plan A and B work....and sometimes they don't....depends on the situation and the people involved.

JMHO <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

MP,

While I respect your opinion.....I do not agree with it.[b]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> There is no such thing as a modified Plan B. It's like being pregnant or honest, it either is or it's not.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If EVERYONE here were to do Plan B exactly the same way..or by the book..then we would have to assume that every situation is exactly the same....and we know that is not the case.

[b]Every situation is unique....as is every person.

This is a direct quote from Dr. Harley, " There is no such thing as a modified Plan B." Heard it many times, almost weekly on his radio show. You can get it Mondays and Thursdays 1pm CT, click on the link above.

I've been here for well over a year now and have seen modified versions of all of the MB Principles. I've modified some of the Principles myself....so that they worked for me.

Five years intensive study MB program. One weekend, One coaching seminar, work with Dr. Harley with my own cases/clients. While I agree that some things must be fitted to the individual and to the case, the principles are not really modifiable, if you still want to call them MB.

I disagree with this also.[b]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Plan A is a strategy to separate the spouse from the lover. To show that you acknowledge your part in the breakdown of the marriage, and to demonstrate your willingness to be the husband your wife has always wanted. That you can and will avoid LBers and learn to meet her needs.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">[b]I never once thought of Plan A as a strategy to seperate my H from the OW. As most all of us know.....the BS has no control over seperating the 2....since we have no control over anyone other than ourselves. I don't think the word strategy has any place in Plan A. It almost makes it sound as if one is planning the way they will get their WS back.....like a game.

Also a direct quote from Harley. He says it every week on his show, with those words, and in person at his seminars.

I saw Plan A as a way for me to work on myself....once I realized my part in the destruction of my marriage.

Yes, of course it is, which is what I said.

To say that one needs to show willingness to the WS that they can be the W or H that the WS always wanted really gets me too.

Here's the Plan A/ Plan B link. Plan A / Plan B

I don't agree with the concept of the BS becoming a doormat while waiting for the WS to "make up their mind".

I never suggested becoming a doormat. But Plan A is nothing more than a willingness to end LBers and to meet needs in the hope that it will give the WS reason to rethink the A. To negotiate the end to the affair by showing that you are willing and able to do what needs to be done to address your part in the unhappiness of the marriage.

Telling is often the biggest LB.

And to say tell those that would be an advocate for your marriage.....seems like more strategy to me. Like trying to get all these people on your side before the game ends.

Telling is not a LBer. It's seeking help from friends and family who might be able to influence the WS to end the A. Is it a game? I don't know. But the BS is only doing what is necessary to piece back together what the BS has shattered by his/her cruel and thoughtless behavior.

Harely always advocates telling. Always.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Affairs continue often times for as long as the BS allows. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The BS is not allowing the affair to continue.....just as we had no control over the beginning of the affair....we have no control over the ending.

Also a direct quote from Harley. Sorry.

The Harley's say that the affair has to die a natural death.....that means that the BS cannot push it to end....that would be a selfish demand.

Have you had a chance tob listen to the show? Read SAA? Read this site entirely? Read HN/HN, G&T, FIL/SIL, LBers, been to a seminar or a weekend? Of course he says the BS should push it to end! A demand would be insisting. But implementing a strategy which makes the BS more attractive, by being honest about how the A hurts, and by eventually going to Plan B if needed are ways to either encourage the WS to end the A, or to preserve the LBnk of the BS in Plan B.

The affair has to die on it's own...without any input from the BS. IF the BS pushes the WS to end the affair.....the most likely thing that will happen is that contact will eventually ensue again....and it will go on until it dies a natural death.....by one or both parties deciding not to persue the relationship.

No, not at all. Yes most affairs die a natural death, but input from the BS is essential. The BS should be doing a real Plan A, which is to meet needs and to eliminate LBers. He or she should be honest about how much the A hurts EVERY TIME the WS sees the OP, he/she should tell others in their life, and even take other measures.

I once heard Harley advise a woman whose H was having an A with an illegal immigrant to call INS. She did. Affair over. The BS is not a passive observer at all.

Throughout this whole site things are modified....because the situations and the people are different.

You may be talking forum, but I assure you that if you talk to Willard Harely it is NOT modified. I wouldn't cite the info here at the forum as good MB advice most of the time.

It seems to me that you are saying that t_m_d should not modify anything he sees on this sight to possibly work better for him.....that he should stick to the basics.

Yep, that would be right.

Plan B is hard for people with children.......there is no way to take yourself out of the picture completely when children are involved....hence....a modified Plan B.

It's very difficult with children. I agree. But there are ways to have an intermediary, or in the worst case scenario to communicate about the children only with email. I still go for the intermediary if at all possible.

Quite fankly...some people are often too scared to go into Plan B......so they modify it....and sometimes it works.

Plan B is scary and it's risky. It should be done only when the energy reserves for Plan A are exhausted, or when it becomes apparent that the A is going to continue in spite of good Plan A work.

C

<small>[ September 03, 2002, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: cerri ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> There is no such thing as a modified Plan B. It's like being pregnant or honest, it either is or it's not.
------------------------------------------------

This is a direct quote from Dr. Harley, " There is no such thing as a modified Plan B." Heard it many times, almost weekly on his radio show. You can get it Mondays and Thursdays 1pm CT, click on the link above.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry to disagree......but look around this board for a while and you will see many modified Plan B's.....and it's working.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Five years intensive study MB program. One weekend, One coaching seminar, work with Dr. Harley with my own cases/clients. While I agree that some things must be fitted to the individual and to the case, the principles are not really modifiable, if you still want to call them MB. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've read what you've wrote about your intensive studies and all that.......several times.

Saying that things must be fitted to the individual and to the case is not modifying it?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I saw Plan A as a way for me to work on myself....once I realized my part in the destruction of my marriage.
-----------------------------------------------
Yes, of course it is, which is what I said. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you misunderstood what I meant in that statemenet.

I worked on myself for me.
Not to show my then WH that I was willing to be the W that HE wanted.......but to be the person I (stressing the word I) wanted to be.
Had I changed only to become the W that my then WH wanted then I would no longer be myself. One cannot live for someone else or to make someone else happy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I never suggested becoming a doormat. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No...you did not. But it is stated by Dr. Harley that the BS becomes somewhat of a doormat...and encourages it...during Plan A.

I have read this site...many times over..and HN/HN. I have not attended the seminars....have not had a counseling session with Steve or Jennifer.....nor have I heard the radio show.

I don't agree with someone becoming a doormat on purpose in the hopes of it working to get their spouse back.

I don't agree with someone putting up with emotional and verbal abuse in hopes of getting their spouse back.......but that is what some of the principals tell you to do. To ride it out in hopes that the WH will decide to end the affair and resume the marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes most affairs die a natural death, but input from the BS is essential. The BS should be doing a real Plan A, which is to meet needs and to eliminate LBers. He or she should be honest about how much the A hurts EVERY TIME the WS sees the OP, he/she should tell others in their life, and even take other measures.

I once heard Harley advise a woman whose H was having an A with an illegal immigrant to call INS. She did. Affair over. The BS is not a passive observer at all. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is it also possible that because of the BS's input that the WS will eventually come to resent the BS for their initial input. Just as the BS builds resentment for the affair itself?

I've seen it over and over....and not just on the MB site. The BS pushes for the affair to end....and the WS either ends up resenting the BS for it.....or contact never really ends.....because it's being forced to end.

All of the cases that I have seen where the affair ends a natural death....by the BS staying out of the ending of the affair have ended up with the 2 parties having the affair never contacting each other again. Whereas when it's pushed contact between the 2 lays low for a while....but ensues once they feel it's safe.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Telling is not a LBer. It's seeking help from friends and family who might be able to influence the WS to end the A. Is it a game? I don't know. But the BS is only doing what is necessary to piece back together what the BS has shattered by his/her cruel and thoughtless behavior. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To my understanding.....according to MB Principles....only the WS can determine what is an LB to him or her.

Again.....from cases that I have seen.....the BS that tells everyone that might "be on their side" usually backfires.
The WS accuses the BS of playing games....which is exactly what it looks like.

The purpose of telling should be only for support of yourself......not in trying to get them to convince the WS to end the affair. Only the WS or the OP can end the affair with long term results.

As for the lady that called INS.....of course the affair is over.....she's had to leave the country. Such is not the case in MOST affairs. Most BS's cannot get the 2 that far away from each other.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Throughout this whole site things are modified....because the situations and the people are different.
-------------------------------------------------
You may be talking forum, but I assure you that if you talk to Willard Harely it is NOT modified. I wouldn't cite the info here at the forum as good MB advice most of the time.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sure most of the posters here would really enjoy that comment.

Yes....I am talking abou the forum. Some of us cannot afford a session with Steve or Jennifer....cannot afford to go to the seminars....some of us cannot even afford to buy one of the books. So we come here to ask questions from those that are going through the same thing and those that have worked it out. Sometimes that is all that one can do.

But the advice from those that come here works.....even though it may not live up to your standards.

It worked for me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It seems to me that you are saying that t_m_d should not modify anything he sees on this sight to possibly work better for him.....that he should stick to the basics.

Yep, that would be right. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So he should follow everything by the book.....even if it isn't working for him?

Odd

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Plan B is hard for people with children.......there is no way to take yourself out of the picture completely when children are involved....hence....a modified Plan B.
-------------------------------------------------
It's very difficult with children. I agree. But there are ways to have an intermediary, or in the worst case scenario to communicate about the children only with email. I still go for the intermediary if at all possible.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry to say....but I've not seen one case where the parents NEVER have to actually talk to each other or see each other when there are children involved.

When my children are involved....I'd rather go to the source than wait for an email that may not be read for a while.

Some of us aren't lucky enough to have someone that is willing to be an intermediary...or are in a situation where both parties have access to an email account...hence having to modify Plan B to fit your situation.

There are cases where I think that absolute NO CONTACT at all is essential, such as physical and verbal abuse.

JMHO <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Cerri,

Well, I think you did MTD a great disservice by blasting a poster who, in my book, is probably one of the top five people on this site regarding MB program, coaching, etc. And worse yet, you blasted her because her very MB-aligned advice was not consistent with the majority population of posters on this website!

I know it&#8217;s not going to impress you, but I counseled with Jennifer Harley Chalmers from September 2000 through April 2002, and I can tell you that the Harleys are not proponents of modifying their Plans. They&#8217;ve developed these Plans to the point of knowing what is proven, and that&#8217;s what they recommend. To the letter. Even the no-contact letter taken verbatim out of SAA.

As far as telling the world about the affair, yep, that&#8217;s standard Harley method also. If wife hadn&#8217;t proceeded immediately to no-contact after D-day, Jennifer&#8217;s firm recommendation was to get OM&#8217;s wife, our friends, everyone involved by knowing exactly what was going on. Besides, the OM&#8217;s wife has a right to know too, doesn&#8217;t she? You&#8217;d be a proponent of &#8220;tell all&#8221; too if you were in her shoes now. &#8220;Tell all&#8221; is still the standing order to this day, but thankfully we&#8217;re in month nine of no contact, and on the way to recovery.

But it is stated by Dr. Harley that the BS becomes somewhat of a doormat...and encourages it...during Plan A.

Want to tell me what page of what book you read Harley state Plan A means being a doormat? I was in a Harley-coached Plan A for over a year, and never once was the &#8220;doormat&#8221; word used, or even implied.

I have read this site...many times over..and HN/HN. I have not attended the seminars....have not had a counseling session with Steve or Jennifer.....nor have I heard the radio show.

Yes, and I am sure you have good intentions. But slamming someone for having differing views than your own, and in this case, more informed knowledge because of extensive counseling with the Harleys and pursuing coach certification in their program&#8230; Well, I think you get the picture.

I won&#8217;t even comment on the rest of your justification responses of how right you are, the cases you have seen, etc. Cerri could quote you chapter and verse where you&#8217;re wrong, but it wouldn&#8217;t matter to you. Given your responses, I don&#8217;t think you&#8217;d recognize it if even Willard Harley himself posted on this site, and would likely blast his staunch, hard-line, no modification counsel. THAT is what is scary about this site &#8211; the fact that MB-consistent advice can be so staunchly contradicted by someone who doesn&#8217;t even own the library (I think Surviving an Affair is a mandatory read for anyone touched by an affair), much less spent any time being &#8220;coached&#8221; by a Harley.

In this case, your good intention of adamantly defending your own &#8220;JMHO&#8221; opinions drove away a poster who was trying to provide MTD with some truly valuable, MB-consistent advice.

P

First of all.....I highly doubt that I drove anyone away with just my opinion.

Second....I was not slamming anyone. Would you kindly show me where?

Third, I have SAA in my posession and have read it. Not that an explanation is needed but I was trying to edit my post to add it when our power went out......and forgot to come back and add it.

If anyone slammed anyone it was cerri for saying that the majority of the posts that people make on this site are not constructive.

I don't need anyone to tell me how right I am.....I don't believe I said that I was right....I was simply stating my opinion....which I am allowed to do. I did not break any rules within my post. I also don't think I was disagreeing with cerri personally....I was disagreeing with a principle...not a person.

The Harley's may not be proponents on modifying their Plans......but it does happen.

I don't need anyone to tell me chapters and verses either.......what makes her so right and me so wrong?

I never said she was wrong and I was right.

I'm talking about different things working for different people. Even the Harley's will admit that their Principles aren't going to work for everyone.

My whole point was that telling t_m_d that he should do nothing other than what is said on this site and in the books isn't really reasonable.

He should take whatever he can and use it to HIS advantage. Use what works for HIM. If that be using the MB Prinicples along with other Principles then so be it. But to tell him that by not doing it by the book is wrong.....is well.....wrong.

Anyone that knows me knows that I do not live in a box. Why am I not allowed to post what I have seen without being bashed?

I have just as much right as cerri to have an opinion.....whether I agree with hers or not. This is not mud slinging. This is 2 adults having a conversation about their opinions. I do not join in or condone bashing of any sort.....but I do offer my opinion...sometimes I come off the wrong way.....but I am allowed to have it...and I am allowed to disagree as long as I do it in a respectful manner.....which I do believe I have.

I was not slamming cerri because of her opinion.......yet a 3rd party comes in and starts slamming me because I have a different opinion........isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?

I will go back on the fact that I said that Dr. Harley says that in Plan A you become somewhat of a doormat and encourages it. I was wrong about that ( I can admit when I'm wrong). I read that statement wrong......it states that the BS can feel like somewhat of a doormat.

My whole point here.....is that cerri came into this post telling t_m_d that there is no modified Plan B......when I am proof that there is. I will admit it because I am proud of the way I handled myself throughout my ordeal and my xWH are now happily together.

I modified it because not ALL of the MB Principles worked for me. So I took things from here....and there.....and it worked for me.

To sit here and say that you can only do it this way or that way for it to work.....isn't realistic.

My opinion may be different.....but at least I can look outside of the box.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> THAT is what is scary about this site – the fact that MB-consistent advice can be so staunchly contradicted by someone who doesn’t even own the library (I think Surviving an Affair is a mandatory read for anyone touched by an affair), much less spent any time being “coached” by a Harley. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Kindly tell that to the hundreds of people on this site that do not have the money for the books and "coaching". Not everyone can afford it so they have to make do with what they can afford.

Just because I don't have the $ for the "coaching", I'm not allowed to have an opinion.

<small>[ September 03, 2002, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: Miss Priss ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Miss Priss:

I'm talking about different things working for different people. Even the Harley's will admit that their Principles aren't going to work for everyone.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you EVER heard one of the Harleys admit that their principles won't work for everyone?

The only thing I've ever heard along those lines are people who are "born liars" due memory loss from a brain injury caused by trauma or disease. This he says he cannot help.

Severe abusers with a history of exteme physical violence would be the only other write off. And even in those cases, WH reccommends that the couple separate in a Plan B scenario until the abuser agrees to get help, and then that they date with limited contact for an extended period of time. Only after that does he suggest ending the M. And I think that's considered more a failure of the one spouse to do the work, than of his methods.

Other than that? Boy, I don't know. A lot of things were brought up by many in the professional field at the conference I attended in DC, and Harley never once says that his stuff isn't for everyone. In fact, he says quite the opposite. Frequently, loudly.

I don't have a problem with modifying things. I have a problem with calling in MB. It's not. MB exists within rigid guidelines. You can take what you want and use it where it fits. But then call it something else. There is no such thing in MB as a "Modified Plan B."

C

MTD,

While everyone is trying to figure out who is right lets get back to you. My opinion is that you need to cut ties with her. She has been disrespectful to you in your house. There is no reason that she should feel the need to date the OM and have you waiting for her at home. Plus I would have a "come to Jesus" meeting with the OM about calling YOUR home. If she feels the need to contact him then she can find other ways to do it. She should not bring that in to your house. I had these situations arise in my M and recovery.

Actually the night I found out about her A's I called the OM and told him under no uncertian terms was he co call the house and IF he did not heed my warning there would be repecussions. Now I know that was a LB, but you know what? WHO CARES? I needed to stand my ground and lay down the rules of our house. Several times while she was in her fog we argued. Even though we fought I still did everything to show her I was an honest and caring and loving person.

The final straw was one night she was talking to him on her cell phone on our patio. She had been telling me she wanted to work on our M all this time, but was not fully willing to do it. I go fed up and said "hope he can make you happier than I could". I walked out the door before she could even hang up the phone. I was not mean, but I showed her that I was not going to tolerate her antics. I have too much respect for myself to do that. It did not even take a couple of days before she got real serious about us.

Now we are on our way to a great recovery. She communicates with me unlike she ever has and allows me to check up on her at anytime with out question. She checks in with me all the time to let me know where she is. She is doing all this for me to show me that she is trying and that she wants our marriage. It time she will not need to go to those extremes.

My opinion (not that it means much) is that you need to take a firm line with your W. Show her you are not going to be used, be confidant in yourself. If she thinks that you cant live without her then she will keep doing what she is doing. If you show her that you dont need her, but you want her. Then she just might make a turn around.

There really is no right and wrong way. Every one is different. The Harley books are excellent blueprints to recovering your marriage. But like all blue prints, there are revisions to be made to make it work better for you. I found SAA to help me deal with my feelings and what to expect in the recovery process, but it was up to me to plan out my plan A and how to approach it.

Be firm with your needs and your feelings. Dont let her disrespect your home with her selfish actions. Tell her if she needs to do this... then there is the door. But dont lock it behind her. Give her the option to comeback after she has proven herself.

goodluck to you and if you need someone to talk to .. e-mail me.

Madnav

Wow, uhm, thanks everyone. I think. I really opened up a can of worms here didn't I? I hope I am not the cause of any trouble, I just wanted a little advice:/. Really, thank you EVERYONE. That means everyone who offered their .02$ worth. I do appreceiate everyone taking time from their lives to try and help with my problems. Determination, Sad Tiger, Miss Priss, Cerri, Persistand, Madnav, thank you ALL very much. Hehe, I guess I should be more careful as to the questions I ask from now on. I have already taken everone's advice into consideration and will mover forward accordingly. Madnav, you may be happy to know that I have moved in with my mother for the time being, and have no intention of being her "little lost puppy". I do want her, but I have enough self respect to know that I can go on without her. Again thanks everyone, and uh, watch out for those hornet's nests ok? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

MTD,

I am not sure if this is the right thing to say, but congratualtions. You have made a HUGE step. Now the ball is in her court. This will allow her to figure it out on her own. When she realises that her OM can not fulfill everything that she needs. Then things will be different. It will be a trying time for you and she probably do everthing she can to pull you back home. Draw your line in the sand and let her know that "this is what it is going to take" for you to CONSIDER coming home. Stand your ground. She has made the mistake and she should be the one to walk through fire to get you back. Then when she has "figured out what she wants" (which is a cop out phrase in my opinion).Then start on the road to recovery with her.

This approach worked for me and I feel it showed her that I was not going to put up with her shenanigans and that I did not need her but I wanted her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Once I felt that she was sincere in her feelings, I met her half way and started finding out what was the root of our problems. Things are starting to get better than when we first got together.

Good luck

Mad

MTD,

Well, now that you’ve taken your first step toward Plan B, I think you ought to follow through and do it by the book. This includes a Plan B letter to your wife. (Otherwise, she’s just gonna think you’ve moved out as punishment, instead of Protection of your Love Bank.)

I pulled some Plan B guidelines that Cerri posted to Broken Hearted in my JFO post (After Long Plan A, Just Found Out). BH is being coached along the way in her Plan B. If you’re interested, you might go to page 220 and start reading her posts and responses. Here are Cerri’s notes on Plan B letter that she posted to BH:

Plan B:
1. I love you
2. I married you for life
3. I want to stay married to you
4. This thing that you are doing is too painful for me to bear
5. Until you end the affair and agree to never see or speak to her again, I do not want to see or speak to you
6. (In the case of children) I have asked _____ to act as intermediary with the children.

If you haven’t done it, you need to get a Plan B letter out ASAP. If you don’t have Surviving an Affair – buy it immediately and read it. It’s a great read for someone who’s life has been touched by an affair.

P

Thanks Persistant. Despite all the "conflicting orders" (joke) everone's advice has been big help. Please don't stop if there's anything more you could add!

Ok, I was all set to go to Plan B. Had my Plan B letter typed out and everything. Then she comes home and tells me that her feelings for OM have dwindled(sp?) to almost nothing. UGH!!! How dare she? So now what? I have not gone to Plan B yet. The talk we had that night (this was 2 nights ago, when I was going to give her my Plan B letter) was very, very, long; and actually very constructive. I doubt she has completely cut off contact with OM because I don't want to pressure her right now. BTW, this brings another reason for the delay. She has told me that the OM just isn't making any love band deposits (not her words, but the general idea) and she is slowly letting him slip away. My question is, should I continue on to Plan B anyway? I have read that I should not go to Plan B until my love bank balance is very low, and right now I don't feel myself having any hateful feelings for her. Should I take advantage of the OM's lack of attention to her and make as many deposits as I can as quickly as I can? I do feel I could Plan A for a while longer before losing my love for her. Also, since I have moved out (per mutual decision) she has fallen behind in her bills (rent). I have been supporting her and the boys financially, but I cannot pay her rent and mine as well. I am just not THAT well off. Not much I could do about it either way, but I do feel I should be there for her. I can find her a place to stay that I could afford. So many questions, so few brain cells. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Her own sister thinks I should just give up on her, but I don't think I'm ready to do that just yet. Besides, she's 17, so doesn't she know everything? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I am thinking of keeping Plan A going for a short while longer. What do you guys think? What do the wise ones say? Other opinions would be VERY appreciated? To B, or not to B. That is my question.

<small>[ September 15, 2002, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: madly_truly_deeply ]</small>

There sure is a lot of advice...If I was in your situation and I wanted to continue working on the relationship, I would be buying table dances at the local strip club using her credit card...It may not save the relationship, but at least I would have some fun and have some great locker room conversation topics...

UHM....thanks for the uh,...advice deeds. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

^

Sounds more like she is throwing you a bone to keep you interested in her rather than a willingness on her part to change her ways and rebuild the marriage. Your posts doesn't even say that she wants to end contact with OM and rebuild the marriage. The story about her father's illness may or may not be true, but it should not be a factor in your decision of whether you should go into plan B or not. Your eagerness to return to her may be setting you up for a steep downhill turn on the emotional rollercoaster if she is lying to you about her feelings for OM and if that is the case, your love bank will be seriously depleted.

One reason for going into plan B is to preserve the remaining love you have for her in the eventuality that she demonstrates a genuine willingness to rebuild the M. If your love bank at that moment in time is too low, then you may not have enough emotional energy to want to rebuild the M. You will be so emotionally drained that the tendency to divorce her will be greater than the desire to work on rebuilding M. Don't kid yourself that recovery will be a piece of cake, it will probably be more difficult than dealing with your WW's fog and continued contact with OM. If you don't beleive me, just ask any of the folks on the recovery board whether it was easy for them to work on their marital recovery.

So think about what I said before you decide to go back to her.

Hey MTD....
Ok, somewhat anxiously I'll tell you what I think. I would also highly encourage you to call the radio show tomorrow (monday) and talk to Dr. H. I think he'll suggest the same sorts of things I will, but hey, if not.... I'd go with him. Unless you really feel like he didn't get the picture, but I doubt it. The number is just a click away on the radio link above. 1pm CT, call at the top of the hour, so you're sure to get in.

Then she comes home and tells me that her feelings for OM have dwindled(sp?) to almost nothing. UGH!!! How dare she?

Really, what is with this woman, ya go to all the work to do a Plan B and now she thinks the A might end. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I doubt she has completely cut off contact with OM because I don't want to pressure her right now.

I don't know that I would "pressure" her either. That could be seen as demand. What you can and should do, it tell her how much it hurts you when she has contact with him. Factual, not judgemental. So it's, "I feel ______when you see OM."

NOT, "You're so selfish and don't care how much it hurts me..." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

She just found out her fater in Alabama has some very seriouse health problems and I'm afraid going to Plan B right now may seem like I am abandoning her.

Yes, it would. And this is a great opportunity to rack up points.

She has told me that the OM just isn't making any love band deposits (not her words, but the general idea) and she is slowly letting him slip away. My question is, should I continue on to Plan B anyway?

I would stay with Plan A, but really add the honesty level. How well do you know her needs? Has she indicated what it is that OM does for her that you were not?

I have read that I should not go to Plan B until my love bank balance is very low, and right now I don't feel myself having any hateful feelings for her.

I think that answers your question. She's rethinking the A, and you have the energy. Do you have a good Plan A plan? Would you like help with one?

Should I take advantage of the OM's lack of attention to her and make as many deposits as I can as quickly as I can? I do feel I could Plan A for a while longer before losing my love for her.

YES!!!!!

I can find her a place to stay that I could afford. So many questions, so few brain cells.

Did you ever read Agatha Christie? Detective Poirot always talked about the "grey matter." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Anyway, this is what I would ask Harley. My first instinct is to say move back home. But I need to think on that a bit. There' pros for ending the affair and cons in terms of recovery. Ask me again, after it ferments in my grey matter.

Her own sister thinks I should just give up on her, but I don't think I'm ready to do that just yet. Besides, she's 17, so doesn't she know everything?

Yeah, taking advice from a 17yo girl probably isn't your best bet!! LOL

I am thinking of keeping Plan A going for a short while longer.

If you have the energy and the will to do it, given where the A is, I think it's an excellent idea. But I also think you need to have a really well put together Plan A, not a shotgun approach but focused and detailed.

To B, or not to B. That is my question.

Very cute!

Hope that helps. I'll check here over the next couple days if you like. Just let me know what questions you have.

C

Thank you Cerri:). You're great. You're H is lucky to have such a wise woman at his side(can you tell I'm kissing up <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). First, I would love some more thoughts on how to work a good plan A. I'm doing my best, but I feel like I keep mucking it up. As for the EN's that OM is meeting, we have talked about it but she can't seem to identify what he does (or just won't tell me about it). She says "he just has a way of talking to me that makes me feel really good about myself." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I suppose "Ilove you now more than ever" and "I really want you to be part of my/our life forever" were'nt enough for her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Anyway, thanks Cerri, you've been a great help. Hope to hear again on your Plan A ideas. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> By the way, just reread my post and my spelling <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> , I am quite ashamed. Sorry. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Hi MTD...

Did I ever tell you I really like the name? Is it after the song by KC and Jojo? That was our first "our song."

[bThank you Cerri:). You're great. You're H is lucky to have such a wise woman at his side(can you tell I'm kissing up <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). [/b]

As I tell my children all the time.... flattery will get you everywhere!! LOL

First, I would love some more thoughts on how to work a good plan A. I'm doing my best, but I feel like I keep mucking it up.

Can you give me a list of what you have been doing? As detailed as possible?

Also, talk to me about any LBers that she has identified as being a problem. It doesn't do a whole lot of good to be meeting needs and making deposits if you're spending them away at the same time..... A description that sounds sadly like my checkbook!!

As for the EN's that OM is meeting, we have talked about it but she can't seem to identify what he does (or just won't tell me about it). She says "he just has a way of talking to me that makes me feel really good about myself."

Oh yeah.... this I get. Ok, so we're definitely going to put conversation close to the top of the list. AND we're going to note that it is full of friends of good conversation, and lacking enemies of conversation.

Are you ready for homework???

I suppose "Ilove you now more than ever" and "I really want you to be part of my/our life forever" were'nt enough for her.

Nope. That actually goes under the heading of affection. Which I suspect she has a need for as well, most women do. So it goes on the default list until proven otherwise.

But here's the touchy thing about women and affection. As much as they may need it, it's a very intimate need. So if she's not feeling connected to you, then you have to do it gradually and in a way that does not feel intrusive to her. Pouring it on too strongly can feel like someone standing too close. It's uncomfortable. So, we'll start with little non-threatening gestures.

Am I right in thinking you don't have children? How are you handling finances? It seems you are still supporting her in some way? Does she respond to admiration?

Take a look at the ENq... or at the very least the list of EN's and give me your best guess as to what her top 6 would be.

Ok, so list of EN's, list of LBers (yours), list of what you've been doing, and then we have a place to start.

By the way, just reread my post and my spelling <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> , I am quite ashamed. Sorry.

My kids call me the spelling and grammar police. But with long nails and a notebook keyboard, the typos just seem to have take on a life of their own. I just blame it on the blonde thing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

C

Hi, Cerri <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . Sorry I've been away. Here is the info you wanted. As for my name, yes it is. Very good, you're the first person to notice. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> As for Plan A, I've just gone back to the basics, the things I did when we first got married; buying cards and flowers ets., taking walks in the park, going to see a movie, and waiting on her pretty much hand and foot. The only LB's I can see are that I have a tendancy to dwell on the R's with the OM, especially OM#1 who was a good "friend" of mine. And yes, I believe my LB deposit/withdraw ratio is much better than my checkbook also. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Yes, I know conversation is a big one for her, but the content of the conversation is a tough one to crack. She won't go into what they talk about. I know he says things to her that make her feel absolutely wonderful, but I have no idea WHAT. Also, as it turns out, while conversation is very high on her EN's list, it is very low on mine so I am having a difficult time adapting to this. Going to back and check out the compatability section after I post this. Yes, I am SO ready for some homework <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Her EN's as best I can see (she won't do the quest., she thinkst they are silly) are (no particular order) conversation, affection, admiration would be the biggest ones (her self-esteem is VERY low). The biggest LB's would be my talking about OM's, I have a tendancy to interrupt her when talking, and a few bad habits that have greatly improved in the last few weeks. This is all I can think of so far (like I said, so few brain cells), but I will let you know if anything important pops in <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . Thanks again Cerri, you are terrific. (sucking up again) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

]Hi, Cerri <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi!!
As for my name, yes it is. Very good, you're the first person to notice.

I have one of those weird memories. Like an encyclopedia, but don't ask me where my shoes or car keys are, cuz I have no idea!!

As for Plan A, I've just gone back to the basics, the things I did when we first got married; buying cards and flowers ets., taking walks in the park, going to see a movie, and waiting on her pretty much hand and foot.

Ok, so we need some definite actions that you will do on a regular basis, and a ckecklist to keep you on track.

The only LB's I can see are that I have a tendancy to dwell on the R's with the OM, especially OM#1 who was a good "friend" of mine.

Bringing up anything that's in the past, like OM1 is off limits. Well, unless there is still contact. Is there?

Dwelling on mistakes of the past is a big LBer. It could be considered and AO, in terms of it being punishing. If the action is truly in the past, (unlike an ongoing A) then the only way you can bring it up in the present is to negotiate for change. When we talk specifics, we'll talk about how that works.

Yes, I know conversation is a big one for her, but the content of the conversation is a tough one to crack. She won't go into what they talk about. I know he says things to her that make her feel absolutely wonderful, but I have no idea WHAT.

It's not just the "what" it's the "how" as well. And we can work on that. I would suggest that if you have some time today that you tune into Oprah... is she still on?.... and take notes on how she talks to her guests. Note the eye contact, the engagement, the participation and the being present entirely with the other person. This is your first assignment. Report back to me what you see.

Going to back and check out the compatability section after I post this.

There's a compatibilty section??

Her EN's as best I can see (she won't do the quest., she thinkst they are silly) are (no particular order) conversation, affection, admiration would be the biggest ones (her self-esteem is VERY low).

Those are common for women. How do you know her SE is low?

The biggest LB's would be my talking about OM's, I have a tendancy to interrupt her when talking, and a few bad habits that have greatly improved in the last few weeks.

Do the conversation assignment, and let me think about putting some other ideas together. How much time are you spending with each other having fun? That's going to be next on the list.

Later..... I'll post back with some more detailed thoughts tonight or tomorrow.

C

I have one of those weird memories. Like an encyclopedia, but don't ask me where my shoes or car keys are, cuz I have no idea!!

Are you kidding, it took me 40 mins to find my toothbrush this morniing!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Ok, so we need some definite actions that you will do on a regular basis, and a ckecklist to keep you on track.

You mean other something other than what I'm doing? A checlist...I can do that.

Yes, I know talking about OM's is a big LB. I am actually getting quite better about that one, mostly because she is more open with me about them. I never ask for the "gory details". When we do talk about them, I ask only about her feelings; before and after and what she was thinking about...that kind of thing. Like I said she is very open and I never get angry during these any more. As for OM#1, there was accidental contact when he came by me house. You see, he wasn't aware that I knew about the A's. Needless to say, he left VERY quickly. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Yes, I did my "homework" Mrs. Cerri, I watched Ophra. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I did learn something. I am a horrible conversationalist. I never realized it before. As I said, conversation is at the bottom of my list of EN's, so I never really thought it important to build my skills in this area. I'm a good talker, but I don't listen for kaka. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

By the way, she's always had a low self-esteem. She's built up a tough exterior over the years, but in her heart she is very insecure about herself. Fall into her admiration EN maybe?

Anxiously awaiting your wisdom oh great one (there I go again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).

Ya'll have this sad but true picture of me never moving from computer and not sleeping doncha??? LOL

Are you kidding, it took me 40 mins to find my toothbrush this morniing!!

Well, I was going to say that I never lose my toothbrush, but then I remembered that one time, and that other time and then the time that........................


You mean other something other than what I'm doing? A checlist...I can do that.

Yep, and tomorrow, I'll have some concrete things to put on it. Tonight my brain is mush from finally finishing my web site, meeting with the program director for a family continuing ed organization about teaching some relationship classes, and most of all from watching two kids' football games..... ewwwwwww.

Yes, I know talking about OM's is a big LB. I am actually getting quite better about that one, mostly because she is more open with me about them. I never ask for the "gory details". When we do talk about them, I ask only about her feelings; before and after and what she was thinking about...that kind of thing. Like I said she is very open and I never get angry during these any more.

But she is still seeing him.... them..... right? And you are not living together but she spends time at your house? No kids?

As for OM#1, there was accidental contact when he came by me house. You see, he wasn't aware that I knew about the A's. Needless to say, he left VERY quickly.

Is she still seeing him too?

Yes, I did my "homework" Mrs. Cerri, I watched Ophra.

Good job!!!!! Oh and that would be Ms. Cerri <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I haven't entirely abandoned by xtreme feminsit ways... LOL

Write this down, it will go on your plan that we'll talk about tomorrow, but you can think about it now. Watch again, maybe a couple days over the next week. Write down phrases that she uses that show interest, engagement, attention, and that keep the conversation moving. Also, any other conversational techniques that you observe as showing the other person that they are interesting and heard. Be as specific as possible. See how many you can come up with... post the list here.

I did learn something. I am a horrible conversationalist. I never realized it before.

Excellent!!! Having awareness is the essential first step in making changes. While we're at it, read the link here about conversation re: WH. I think there's also a link to learning how to meet that need. Read that also. Add to your Oprah list things that you find are particularly fitting for you.

Conversation

As I said, conversation is at the bottom of my list of EN's, so I never really thought it important to build my skills in this area.

Well then my young Jedi, it is time we turned our attention to that matter...... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

By the way, she's always had a low self-esteem. She's built up a tough exterior over the years, but in her heart she is very insecure about herself.

You didn't answer my question of how you know this?

Fall into her admiration EN maybe?

Quite possibly, but even those with healthy SE can have a need for Adm.

b]Anxiously awaiting your wisdom oh great one (there I go again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).[/b]

It would be more likely to go to my head if I didn't have teenagers who delight in letting me know that I'm an idiot and know nothing about anything!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Well, that and the fact that I can't find my new house keys.... sigh.......

Back in the morning to talk about honesty, infidelity, and affection. There's a combination!

C

No, I guess the other link is just to an ad for HN/HN. BTW, which if any of the Harley books do you have?

Let me know before I post a bunch of stuff I could just as easily have you read by referencing the page numbers!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Night.....

C

Ok, I'm awake now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Here's what I suggest you do, and report back to me on Tuesday.

1. Watch at least 2 more interviewing type shows. Write down phrases that keep the conversation going, show engagement and participation.
Write down other things the interviewer does to let the other person know that what she/he is saying is important and heard... body language, eye contact, etc.
I would not reccomend late night shows like Letterman or what's his name... oh yeah Leno... they are very bad conversationalists, tend to interrupt and blow off their guests.

2. If you do not have any Harley books, order one. My number one suggestion is SAA. If you call the radio show, they'll send you one for free.

3. Read anything you can find on affection, honesty and infidelity here on this site. Use the search feature.

4. List some things you can do every day that you think will meet her need for affection. Detailed: what, how often, when

5. Think about what your deadline for Plan A is going to be

6. Fill me in on the status with OM... she was backing off a bit?

7. Maintain the status quo for the weekend if you can. No RT's, no LBers, be as pleasant as possible. We need to talk about honesty in terms of when your spouse in having an affair. We'll do that next week.

I see that you have 3 boys. I guess that's the very best reason to do everything we can. I'm leaning towards a short Plan A unless there are radical changes soon.

Remember, Plan A will not repair or restore your marriage as long as there is contact with the OM. It will only show that you can and will do what needs to be done. When the A ends, the most vulnerable part of the process begins and that is getting a commitment to recovery.

Go back and read my first post to you on this thread. It has some valuable MB info.

C <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hi Cerri. Sorry it took so long to get back. Been busy. Here is my update for the weekend.

1. Watch at least 2 more interviewing type shows. Write down phrases that keep the conversation going, show engagement and participation.
Write down other things the interviewer does to let the other person know that what she/he is saying is important and heard... body language, eye contact, etc.
I would not reccomend late night shows like Letterman or what's his name... oh yeah Leno... they are very bad conversationalists, tend to interrupt and blow off their guests. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Watching 'till my eyeballs bleed. Watching everything from Oprah, Montell, to Goodmorning America (the interviews), 60 minutes and even Larry King:eek:

2. If you do not have any Harley books, order one. My number one suggestion is SAA. If you call the radio show, they'll send you one for free. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not have any of the Harley's books, but I will go buy SAA tomorrow.

3. Read anything you can find on affection, honesty and infidelity here on this site. Use the search feature.

Reading, reading, and rereading oh wise one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

4. List some things you can do every day that you think will meet her need for affection. Detailed: what, how often, when

Ok, things I can do, or did/will do? I'm not very creative, so the list may be short. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

5. Think about what your deadline for Plan A is going to be

Deadline??? I've never considered it. I thought I should just go until my lovebank was getting to low and I was making lots of LB's.

6. Fill me in on the status with OM... she was backing off a bit?

OM #1 is out of picture. OM#2 is occasional contact because he hangs out where she works <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> A is over though. OM#3 is a different story. It is no longer a PA, but she still talks/sees him frequently. He also hangs out where she works. She will not quit her job or commit to NC with OM#3 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

7. Maintain the status quo for the weekend if you can. No RT's, no LBers, be as pleasant as possible. We need to talk about honesty in terms of when your spouse in having an affair. We'll do that next week.

Ok, no LB's that I know of. What's an RT? Last night was wild. While we were out on "date", we were leaving a resteraunt and actually saw a man hit by a car (he'll be ok). We were first to him and she helped him a great deal (she is a licensed CNA, why she doesn't do this instead of waitressing is beyond me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> )

I see that you have 3 boys. I guess that's the very best reason to do everything we can. I'm leaning towards a short Plan A unless there are radical changes soon.

Yes, 3 beautiful boys. They are my life now. Keeping focused on them has really helped me keep my sanity through this. What do you mean "radical changes"?? How short of a Plan A?? As always, thanks again Cerri, this means a great deal to me.

BTW, I am still trying to figure out all these dkdksl buttons, so if any of my posting is mucked up, I'm sorry <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . And my grammer and spelling skills are really not this horrible in RL, my typing skills are just THAT bad <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Ok, now I am REALLY P'ed!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> She just called as I was posting a moment ago to see if she could go out Friday night, if I would watch the kids when I get off, or ask my mother to watch them so she could go out with "friends". These are the same "friends" that encouraged her to go ahead with A's, cuz "it makes you happy, doesn't it?". AAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!! She told me, "if you let me go out Friday night, then on Sat. night, I will try and get off early so WE can go out". I'm sorry, when did "Let's Make a Deal" come back on the air?? Do I look like Monty Hall?? Please, not even Monty Python would touch that one!!!!

Another question Cerri regarding OM's#1+3, and opening door on A's. Right now, both of our family's know about A's. Her parents are REALLY P'd at her right now. The OMs' familys' don't know right now. OM#3 is married, and as I said, OM#1 was a good friend of mine whose good, CHRISTIAN, mother had me over to dinner a couple times. Should I tell their families? Should I tell OM#3's wife? Should I tell my former friends mother? She would probably through him out of her house <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Can you hear that? That's the sound of me NOT CARING!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Also, she said OM#3 is in a M that is all but over. But these are his words to her and the story has changed several times. From "they never speak to eachother, EVER!" to "they are still civil because of the situation" to "they do go out once in a while as friends" and finally to "well they still have sex every now and then". Hmm, sounds like a buch of kaka to me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> According to what he tells her the only reason they are not D'd yet is he owns a house in Virgin Islands he wants to sell before D. He doesn't want her to "get the house". Florida is a no fault state, doesn't that mean that a judge would order the house sold and then split the earnings when it is done. They have no kids together. Also, I believe he owned the house before they were married, so why is he worried? Hmm, more kaka me thinks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Sorry for the rant, that phone call just P'd me off. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

<small>[ September 15, 2002, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: madly_truly_deeply ]</small>

Morning!!!! (Did I mention I'm one of those really odd people who like Mondays? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Watching 'till my eyeballs bleed. Watching everything from Oprah, Montell, to Goodmorning America (the interviews), 60 minutes and even Larry King

Excellent! Then you should have a good list of phrases and techniques for me!

I do not have any of the Harley's books, but I will go buy SAA tomorrow.

Tell me when you have it.

Reading, reading, and rereading oh wise one

Good, talk to me about the things you are learning. What especially pops out at you?

C: 4. List some things you can do every day that you think will meet her need for affection. Detailed: what, how often, when

MTD: Ok, things I can do, or did/will do? I'm not very creative, so the list may be short.

Post list here: _______ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Deadline??? I've never considered it. I thought I should just go until my lovebank was getting to low and I was making lots of LB's.

Nope, all the best plans have a goal and a deadline. If you go til your LBnk is totally trashed then when the A ends, YOU will be the one not wanting to reconcile. And that would be a tragedy. We'll set a deadline, and when that time comes we can reevaluate how you are feeling and what your energy level is, and decide how to proceed at that point..... more Plan A or go to Plan B.

OM #1 is out of picture. OM#2 is occasional contact because he hangs out where she works <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> A is over though. OM#3 is a different story. It is no longer a PA, but she still talks/sees him frequently. He also hangs out where she works. She will not quit her job or commit to NC with OM#3

Ok, here's my opinion on this whole affair thing. As the BS we tend to get caught up in ending the A, and then think that things will heal themselves. But as you will see as you read through SAA, that's just not the case. IMO, the MOST vulnerable time is when the A ends.

At that point, you, as the BS, really need to insist on the conditionns for recovery before resuming the relationship. Otherwise, the risk of another A is very great.... as you know by the fact that she is now on #3.

One of the conditions of recovery is that the circumstances that led to the affair(s) be eliminated. That includes LBers, neglect of needs, AND things like her job where she meets and gets to know these men. That condition must be removed, or there is no chance of real recovery.

For my H, part of it was having a job that required travel. He is a senior level engineere in the manufacturing field. When he travelled he paid for sex, lots of it. Strippers, hookers, did the porn thing online at work. One of the things he needed to do was to find a job with NO travel. None. It was non-negotiable. That's pretty tough given what he does, but it was possible.

Ok, no LB's that I know of. What's an RT?

Relationship Talk <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I made it up! LOL

Last night was wild. While we were out on "date", we were leaving a resteraunt and actually saw a man hit by a car (he'll be ok). We were first to him and she helped him a great deal (she is a licensed CNA, why she doesn't do this instead of waitressing is beyond me

When we get to that point, she will need to change jobs. Right now, it's part of her addiction to finding men to have affairs with. She is "protecting her source" by remaining in that job, and your marriage cannot recover while that continues.

Yes, 3 beautiful boys. They are my life now.

Are there children who are not beatiful?? LOL... Yes I know what you mean. Mine have literally kept me alive when things were really bad.

What do you mean "radical changes"?? How short of a Plan A??

She will need to show some indication that what you are doing is making a difference. That she is willing to end contact and to make adjustments to put your marriage first. I'm thinking 6 months at the very longest, possibly less depending on what happens.

And my grammer and spelling skills are really not this horrible in RL, my typing skills are just THAT bad

That's what we ALL say!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C

<small>[ September 16, 2002, 09:14 AM: Message edited by: cerri ]</small>

Ok, now I am REALLY P'ed!!!!

Good job, coming here to vent.

She just called as I was posting a moment ago to see if she could go out Friday night, if I would watch the kids when I get off, or ask my mother to watch them so she could go out with "friends". These are the same "friends" that encouraged her to go ahead with A's, cuz "it makes you happy, doesn't it?".

What did you say?

AAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!! She told me, "if you let me go out Friday night, then on Sat. night, I will try and get off early so WE can go out". I'm sorry, when did "Let's Make a Deal" come back on the air?? Do I look like Monty Hall?? Please, not even Monty Python would touch that one!!!!

Well, I understand why you are upset. But, she does have the right ideal in negotiating for what she wants. That's really what MB is all about. However the primary rule is that you both must be happy with all aspects of the trade at the same time.

So, trading something that would make her happy but you unhappy just doesn't cut it. That's called sacrifice, and it's not the way to marital bliss.

So, the appropriate thing to do in this case is:

1. Thank her for asking you how you felt about it.... I know, she didn't really, but let's plant the seed anyway.

2. Tell her honestly how you feel. No.... that doesn't mean saying, "How could you ASK such a thing... you know I hate those people.... they did things to destroy our family!!"
THAT is an AO and disrespectful.

How you feel is... "I'm really uncomfortable with that idea. I don't like that they encouraged your relationships with other men, and that makes me afraid for the future."

3. Ask if she would be willing to think of solutions that would work for both of you. Some that come to mind is that you both go out with her friends, she goes for only an hour and checks in with you when she gets home, you invite her friends over to your house for drinks and snacks....... There are an infinite number of ways to handle this if you are both willing to work towards the same outcome... which is that you are both happy at the same time with the solution.

Should I tell their families?

If there is still contact, maybe. Have you talked to any of the men themselves? I think a good place to start is to tell them that you love your wife, that you have children toether, that you will do whatever it takes to make the marriage work, and that they are hindering that. Appeal to whatever ethics they might have. It doesn't always work, but sometimes it does. No man wants to get caught with his pants down and the husband in his face!!

Should I tell OM#3's wife?

Absolutley. She is an ally.

[b[]Should I tell my former friends mother? She would probably through him out of her house[/b]

Yes, especially if you think she will read him the riot act on the ethics of intruding on your marriage.

Also, she said OM#3 is in a M that is all but over. But these are his words to her and the story has changed several times.

That's the normal course of events in the stories that get told. I still would tell his wife. I doubt she knows the marriage is all but over! She may have a whole different view of things!

Sorry for the rant, that phone call just P'd me off.

Better here than at her!! That's what this place is for.

Now, back to homework for you grasshopper. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

C

Hiya, Cerri:) Just more updates I forgot to post. My WW moved back in with me this past week. Not because of reconciliation, but because she just had nowhere else to go. I'm not complaining. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Also, we talked to her parents about helping her out, so they now know the whole story also. And boy did they hit the roof. They laid into her really hard, much harder than I ever did even. Her parents think very highly of me, but I thought it strange they were very forgiving of my mistakes, but really hit W hard for hers. Not the way I would've done it, but I'm not her parents. Anyway, they refused to help her until she quits her current job and cuts it off with OM(#3). Don't know if I agree or not. On one hand, I would love nothing better for her to quit her job and end her relationship, on the other hand they were really brutal on her and may have only made things worse in my opinion. But again, I'm not her parents. Anyhow, not sure if any of this is important, but I wanted to keep you as informed as possible <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> By the way, I forgot to mention how proud I was of her of the way she handled the accident I mentioned in my previouse post. She really took charge and kept things under control until authorities got there. And yes, I told her how proud I was also. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hi MTD

And where are those assignments that you are supposed to have today????????

My WW moved back in with me this past week. Not because of reconciliation, but because she just had nowhere else to go. I'm not complaining.

No!!! Me either, this gives you a good chance to work hard on your Plan A. But it also makes it all that much more important that you monitor how you are feeling, and that you eliminate LBers.

Anyway, they refused to help her until she quits her current job and cuts it off with OM(#3). Don't know if I agree or not.

HUH???? What's not to agree with??? That is the very best thing they could do for you, and what I wish all parents of WS's would do. It's the only ethical response. I'm impressed. Don't undermine that gift!!

On one hand, I would love nothing better for her to quit her job and end her relationship, on the other hand they were really brutal on her and may have only made things worse in my opinion.

Well, she may have felt badly about being beaten up, but soooo???? She should feel badly, and she should hear that what she is doing is absolutely non-negotiably unacceptable! And not just from you. Friends and family should take a stand that says we love you, but we will not tolerate nor enable this thing that you are doing.

Heck, if my family and friends had done that when I had the A, I might still be married to the father of my kids. Yeah, I might have been angry, and I might have ended some relationships, but their refusal to enable what I was doing might have caused me to stay in my marriage. And that would have been a greater gift of love than looking away.

Anyhow, not sure if any of this is important, but I wanted to keep you as informed as possible

Very important. I think that your position should be that you are grateful for their support of your marriage and your family. And that you will continue to do everything you can to be the husband she's always wanted.

Now, if she does indeed quit her job and end contact, you need to be prepared for the withdrawal... No doubt you've been reading about that in the assignments I've been giving you??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

She really took charge and kept things under control until authorities got there. And yes, I told her how proud I was also.

Very, very excellent. Good job. Feel free to tell her again when it crosses your mind and she's around.

Now about those lists you should have for me?????

C

Hiya, Cerri. Sorry I'm late. The dog ate my homework. Actually, I've just been busy. Lot's of LB's the last couple of days. Mostly today.

On to my homework first. Watched lots and lots of interview type shows. Oprah was the biggest help (can't believe I'm saying this <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ). Larry King wasn't much help as his interviews were more like interrogations <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . But here's what I've gotten so far. I don't think it's so much what you say, but how I direct the conversation. There were phrases; "What did/would you do?", "How do you feel about that?", "What do you think should have happened?", "Do you think that A had anything to do with B?". It would appear to be a matter of directing the conversation around the person and their thoughts/feelings. Like I said, Oprah was the best, Montel was pretty helpful too though. Not sure if this was what you were looking for, but the best get so far. I'll keep watching, I've got a long way to go. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Her needs for affection are just the simple things. I've gotten back into telling her not just how much I love her, but also how proud I am of her. How much I really want her in my life. I try to be careful to remain somewhat detatched, so she doesn't get the idea I can't live without her. I do have some self respect left. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I also try to remind her what a great mother she is. One item I try to harp on so to speak is what a great W she was and COULD be again, even better so than before. Sometimes I get the idea that with me trying to build her SE, she starts to get it into her head that I must try to "win" her back. I don't believe that is the case, is it?? You asked me before about her SE and how I knew it is low. It always has always been low. She is constantly worried about how she looks, her weight etc..., she won't even think about leaving the house unless she has her makeup on. She is forever looking in the mirror worried about what other people will say when they look at her. I am pretty confident that the OM's played on this EN to get what they needed. I'm by no means excusing her actions, but it may provide some insight to the root of the problems. She has been a victim of abuse for much of her life, emotional, physical, and sexual. Mostly by family members. This is probably where the SE problems are mostly derived from.

Now, as for my LB's. Had a huge one today. OM#3 is striving to be a singer, and he gave my W a demo disk with some sample songs on it. She thinks it sounds great, to me it's crap. But the really bad part is that the third track on the CD was OUR WEDDING SONG!!!!!!!! Naturally, my male ego took over and I turned it into a huge argument about respect, and how our marriage was a complete sham at this point, and why do we even bother saving it...etc..etc... Then I told her (hang on to your hats <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ) that if he was so great, and such a wonderful singer, and made her feel so da**** good, she should just go get her freak on with him and forget about me and the kids. She should just move to Georgia with him like he wanted her to. I wonder if he told this one to his W? Maybe I'll save him the trouble <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Anyway, I know this was a huge LB, but she was actually the one to apologize and smooth it over this time. And we actually had a good talk once the yelling was done and over with, so maybe it wasn't a complete loss. I still feel pretty bad about picking a fight though. I've been really good about it so far, pretty disappointed in myself to tell you the truth. Ok, I've done my homework, as well as I could, and it may not seem like much, but I did get a lot out of it.

As always, thanks Cer, you're great <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (what, me suck up???)

^^^^^

Sorry I'm late. The dog ate my homework.

You forget, I have children... teenagers at that.... you can't use that excuse with me!!

But here's what I've gotten so far. I don't think it's so much what you say, but how I direct the conversation. There were phrases; "What did/would you do?", "How do you feel about that?", "What do you think should have happened?", "Do you think that A had anything to do with B?". It would appear to be a matter of directing the conversation around the person and their thoughts/feelings.

Yes, Oprah is excellent. So, I'd like you to get some notecards and write those phrases on them. Carry them with you.... cut the cards in half to make them smaller and more portable if you like. Number the cards. Look at them frequently.

Also, take a sheet of notebook paper and number it down the side with the same number of cards that you have. Make 7 columns, one for each day of the week.

Now, twice a day, look at your cards and your accounting sheet, and make a note of how many times you are using each phrase in conversation with your wife.

It sounds like a lot of work, but without a quantifiable plan that shows measurements, you cannot hope to know that you are staying on track. Good intentions are great, but the proverbial road to hell is paved with them.... or so I hear.... I personally don't believe in hell, but that's another story. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I'll keep watching, I've got a long way to go.

Practice time.... grasshopper....

Her needs for affection are just the simple things. I've gotten back into telling her not just how much I love her, but also how proud I am of her.

Well the one is affection and the other is admiration. But both are cool so go with it. You seem to have an intuitive grasp of the fact that she needs to hear that SHE is special to you. Not just that you want her there to meet your needs, or to be a parent, or because she is female.... but because she is herself. This is a really important ingredient for women, especially when it comes to affection

How much I really want her in my life. I try to be careful to remain somewhat detatched, so she doesn't get the idea I can't live without her. I do have some self respect left.

And that is gaining you what?????? You can have all the self respect in the world, but is it going to snuggle up with you at night???? Let her know that you do need her, and that you want her. Sure you can live without her, you did. But she needs to know that you want her there with you.

I also try to remind her what a great mother she is.

Good!!!

One item I try to harp on so to speak is what a great W she was and COULD be again, even better so than before.

This might border on disrespect. I would be careful with this concept. I think the idea that you want to get across is that YOU will be the husband she's always wanted, and together you will create a lifestyle that you both find wonderful... at the same time.

Sometimes I get the idea that with me trying to build her SE, she starts to get it into her head that I must try to "win" her back. I don't believe that is the case, is it??

Well, to a certain extent, it is. I would guess that if I could talk to her, I would find out that you were not meeting her most important EN's and that in addition you were doing things that were offensive or painful to her.

Now, having an A... much less more than one.... is NOT the ethical way to address those things. And the fact that she was unhappy with the state of the M is no excuse. Ever.

But Plan A is about showing that you are willing and able to make the changes necessary for her to be happy in the M.

I think I said this to you in my first post. Plan A will not restore love to your marriage, nor will it heal it. The A needs to end, there needs to be n/c, and conditions of recovery need to be laid out. Only then will you have love rebuilt. It takes about 2 years from the time the A ends.

You asked me before about her SE and how I knew it is low. It always has always been low. She is constantly worried about how she looks, her weight etc..., she won't even think about leaving the house unless she has her makeup on. She is forever looking in the mirror worried about what other people will say when they look at her.

Well, when I was in my 20's I was very much that way too. I would be careful to believe that you know the inner workings of her mind though. (I'm very guilty of this.... I'm always certain I know what H is thinking/feeling and why... now I've learned to just not SAY it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) But, as I was saying, what you may take for SE issues, could be something totally different such as anxiety.

Try this for a couple of weeks. No labels. View her in the moment only. So, for instance, in one moment in time she may be very self-confident... like at the accident scene. And in another she may be less so. Each of those ways of presenting herself is true. She is both confident and timid. She is a multi-faceted person who changes in conjunction with the events around her. Allow that. Remove the labels.

I am pretty confident that the OM's played on this EN to get what they needed. I'm by no means excusing her actions, but it may provide some insight to the root of the problems. She has been a victim of abuse for much of her life, emotional, physical, and sexual. Mostly by family members. This is probably where the SE problems are mostly derived from.

How awful for her!!! Been there, BTW. So I understand perhaps some of what she carries around. Yes, he probably listened to her stories, told her that he would love her no matter how damaged she felt, and convinced her that he saw only the beautiful parts. That's his Giver kicking in big time. If the fantasy relationship came to an end and he had to deal with her in real life, then he would have a much different outlook.

Naturally, my male ego took over and I turned it into a huge argument about respect, and how our marriage was a complete sham at this point, and why do we even bother saving it...etc..etc... Then I told her (hang on to your hats <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ) that if he was so great, and such a wonderful singer, and made her feel so da**** good, she should just go get her freak on with him and forget about me and the kids. She should just move to Georgia with him like he wanted her to. I wonder if he told this one to his W? Maybe I'll save him the trouble.

Ok, if you are going to do Plan A, then you need to be able to express how you feel, without going to this place. (Oh, and I've been there too..... the yelling the screaming the disrespect.... I think I have the gold medal!!!!)

So, what could you have done differently? First I think you need to learn to walk away. Find a way to relax and cool off when you start to get impatient. DO NOT wait until you are at the point of blowing up. By then it's too late. Think..... frustration.... walk away. Do you know that when you become really angry, the part of your brain that takes over has not developed past the age of 2???? So you are literally a 2yo having a temper tantrum.

Once you have calmed down, and I would give this AT LEAST half an hour, then you can come back and talk about how you feel. Which is what??? Offended that the cd is even in your home?? Hurt? Sick to your stomach? Afraid? All of those things are about you. You don't have the right to insist that she do anything, including get rid of the evil thing, but you have the right and the obligation to talk about how you feel.

I'm wondering why on earth you even listened to it???? Why would you put yourself in that kind of a position? It only hurts you, and as you found out, led to something that did damage to your M.

Anyway, I know this was a huge LB,

Ya think????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

And we actually had a good talk once the yelling was done and over with, so maybe it wasn't a complete loss.

Ok, lecture number 1, paragraph 1: There is no place for anger in marriage. It is abuse. It stems from a belief that we have the right to tell someone else what to do. so fights are a no no. The biggest taboo. Learn these simple steps: 1. Close mouth. 2. Walk away.

Losing your temper is always damaging. And you can't afford that. Your Taker is looking out for your best interests, but the strategies it uses... demands, disrespect, and anger are not in your best interests.

Ok, I've done my homework, as well as I could, and it may not seem like much, but I did get a lot out of it.

Good, that's what we're after. Did you get SAA? Let me know when you do.

As always, thanks Cer, you're great

And did you know I'm always right too???? LOL LOL LOL LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

C

Hello Cerri <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Just wanted to keep you updated on what's going on.

And did you know I'm always right too???? LOL LOL LOL LOL [Big Grin]

Can't argue with you there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> (sucking up again)

Ordered SAA online today. Should have it in a couple of days (I priority mailed it).

Doing what you said with the cards and stuff. I have a lot to learn, but it's working. Not only are we talking more, but we have more meaningful conversations as well. I can tell it means a lot to her that I am listening.

One item I try to harp on so to speak is what a great W she was and COULD be again, even better so than before.

I can see how this would be disrespectful. I have steered away from things like this. Instead I try to focus on what a great mother she is (she really is ya know). I have also made sure to tell her repeatedly not just how much I love her, but WHY I love her. I think these are some things she was missing. I simply took it for granted she would always know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> .

She is a great mother, and a great W (except for the obvious) and I really do want her with me for life.

Haven't LB's since the incident in the car. Wow, looking back, I really was acting like a two year old <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . I have apologized to her and explained to her that I know how I responded was childish and wrong. She seemed to appreciate that also. She really is a wonderful woman with so much to offer, I wish she would see it in herself. She has this view of herself as this big ugly monster who doesn't deserve to be happy.

I would also like to add that things are really starting to look up this last week or so. Despite the fight in the car, we have really been connecting again. I even catch her looking at me sometimes like she hasn't in a long time. It gives me hope for our future together. I know it doesn't mean we will make it, but it gives me hope none-the-less. Also, she hasn't seen OM in over a week, and hasn't had a meaningful conversation in much longer. I am not pushing for NC yet, but it may happen on it's own. Like I said the relationship was not very good by the time I found out anyway. She still goes through some withdraw though. She doesn't say it, but I can see it. Things like the CD and others. She still talks about him a little, but not nearly as fondly as she was 8 weeks ago. I know it doesn't actually mean it's over, and the only thing I have to go on is her word <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> (and my snooping). But she has been completely honost these last few weeks and it means alot to her that I am believe her. She knows I still snoop, but she understands why. She stil apreciates that when I can't find something out on my own, I am happy to take her word on it. We both still have a lot of work to do, but I can't help but be optomistic. She really likes the changes she sees in me, and so do I. Her changes are coming, though much more slowly. I understand that though. I have put up with this much, I can be a little more patient. She has begun searching for another job also. One more suited to her abilities. I know this is hard for her, I will be as patient and supportive as I can. The LB'ing has been cut down considerably on my part. She knows that I honostly credit her for helping me become the person I am now, and I keep telling her we can help eachother become better yet.

Ok, I'm rambling now, so I'm going to give it a rest tonight. I will be back when my thoughts are more in order <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> and I can post something more important.

Anything you would like to kow that may help? I'll be here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

BTW-I ordered SAA online today, and priority mailed it. Will let you know as soon as it comes in (should be a couple of days).

BAH!! You'd think by now I would know how to use all these stupid little buttons.
T.T.F.N.

Good morning!!!

Ordered SAA online today. Should have it in a couple of days (I priority mailed it).

Good job!!! Let me know when you get it.

Doing what you said with the cards and stuff. I have a lot to learn, but it's working. Not only are we talking more, but we have more meaningful conversations as well. I can tell it means a lot to her that I am listening.

Woooo hoooooo!!!!! That is sooooo excellent!!!!! As you find things that are working particularly well, mark those cards somehow or add a new one if it's something you stumble on that you don't already have. I am soooooo pleased to hear that.

[/b]I can see how this would be disrespectful. I have steered away from things like this. Instead I try to focus on what a great mother she is (she really is ya know). I have also made sure to tell her repeatedly not just how much I love her, but WHY I love her. I think these are some things she was missing. I simply took it for granted she would always know[/b]

Good. Women really need to know that they are loved because they're special. That SHE is the one you want, not just any warm body to feed the kids and take up half the bed. I told Persistant to get a couple of disgusting romance novels and read those for inspiration.

Single men with lots of girlfriends know this instinctively. No woman wants to hear that there needs to be a Plan for falling in love. She wants to be swept off her feet and to believe that you find her so irresistable that you can't be away from her. Think along those lines.

She is a great mother, and a great W (except for the obvious) and I really do want her with me for life.

Sounds like you are feeling better about everything too!

I would also like to add that things are really starting to look up this last week or so. Despite the fight in the car, we have really been connecting again. I even catch her looking at me sometimes like she hasn't in a long time.

THAT is what I want to hear. The look never lies. Now, you should know that as you recover and begin to restore those feelings of love, that they will come and go. There will be days that she feels in love with you, and days when she doesn't. Might even swing back and forth during the course of one day. That's normal and to be expected. Continue with meeting needs and avoiding LBers.

It gives me hope for our future together. I know it doesn't mean we will make it, but it gives me hope none-the-less. Also, she hasn't seen OM in over a week, and hasn't had a meaningful conversation in much longer. I am not pushing for NC yet, but it may happen on it's own.

A n/c agreement really should be in place. Let's see what happens with the job thing.

Like I said the relationship was not very good by the time I found out anyway. She still goes through some withdraw though. She doesn't say it, but I can see it. Things like the CD and others. She still talks about him a little, but not nearly as fondly as she was 8 weeks ago.

It takes anywhere from 3 weeks to 6 months to get though w/d. she's doing well.

She knows I still snoop, but she understands why. She stil apreciates that when I can't find something out on my own, I am happy to take her word on it. We both still have a lot of work to do, but I can't help but be optomistic.

One thing I think you could talk about a long these lines is accountability. That you each know where the other is 24/7. You exchange schedules and update them as needed. There should also be full accountability for money. And it needs to work both ways. This is to protect BOTH of you. When there are no secrets it's pretty hard to fall into habits that hurt your spouse.

She really likes the changes she sees in me, and so do I. Her changes are coming, though much more slowly. I understand that though. I have put up with this much, I can be a little more patient.

This is a really good place for you to be. There's lot to be done, but you are certainly on the right track.

She has begun searching for another job also. One more suited to her abilities. I know this is hard for her, I will be as patient and supportive as I can.

Wow!!! Way cool. I wonder if her parents kick in the butt did some good too?

BTW-I ordered SAA online today, and priority mailed it. Will let you know as soon as it comes in (should be a couple of days).

If you ordered it from MB it should come pretty quickly. The Harleys are excellent about getting that stuff out. I'll have some suggestions for how to read it, so let me know when it come. And if you don't have a highlighter..... go buy one.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

C

BAH!! Cerri, I did it again. I'm not sure if what I did was so wrong though. You tell me what you think. I was at the grocery store after work (I was going to by my W a card) when I ran into OM#3. He didn't see me. I was going to confront him as I have been trying to get him for a couple weeks now. He doesn't have a phone, so I just went by his house every now and then but he nor his W was ever home. However, he was with his W, and I was afraid of losing my temper. So since I knew where he lived, instead of confronting him I went his apt and left a note on his door. I told him that I know everything, I don't appreciate what he has done to my family, and I asked him to leave us alone (maybe a little presumptuous. I NEVER wrote anything derogatory or threatening in the letter. I appealed to whatever sense of decency he had left (he's already proven to be a liar and a cheater) and leave my W and my family alone so we could work on our marriage. I even said "please". I said please to a man who was doing the hootchie-cootchie with my W!!! And now she's P'ed at me!! Maybe she has a right to be, but I don't care. She's spent the last 2 years being selfish and doing what felt good to her to make her happy. This was my turn. This was my slamming the door in his face. I told you she hasn't seen him in a week. She told me today she doesn't want to see him anymore. Why did she get mad them?? She is afraid his W will find it first. I hope she does. She has a right to know. I asked her if his W doesn't care like she says, then what does it matter. She says she is worried he will come to her job and create a scene and get her fired. I think she is trying to protect him and still cares what he thinks of her. I maybe wrong. I think she believes everything is going to quietly slip away and nobody will have to deal with the consequences of their actions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> . He has to know he cannot arbitrarily do this and not expect repurcussions.

So PLEASE tell me, Cerri. Am I wrong? Am I just being hateful and selfish? *sigh*

What were you saying about good intentions???

Need input PLEASE!! Have I really screwed up?? I don't think so, but hey, I've been wrong a few (million) times before.

<small>[ September 25, 2002, 12:26 AM: Message edited by: madly_truly_deeply ]</small>

An update on my above LB. After OM read letter he went up to WW's job and they had a very heated argument. Details are sketchy but my understanding is that he left and told her he hates her and never wants to see her again. He said he is going to file charges against me for harrasment, for leaving a letter on his door??? Can he do that?? I seriously doubt it, especially when it will mean providing the note as evidence <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . Now my WW thinks that she just doesn't want a R because of all the problems. She is mad at me becuase he has every right to be upset. I guess sticking one's genitals into my W isn't enough to validate my getting upset. I am just about at the point where if it upsets her so bad she can forget about us and go comfort him.

I guess I should be happy about the end of the R, but I am not happy about her taking his side. I kind of wish his W had found the letter first <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

O.K. Cerri, I know I've got it coming so let me have it. I'm a big boy, I can take my medicine. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

By the way, I did not vent at her as I did in my post. Just had to get it out. Thanks Cer!!

Hate to but in, but...

I confronted the OM here too. My W asked me not to and I complied for a long time. I know it's not for everyone, but I think for some (me!) the confrontation is a necessary step--standing up for yourself, your family. A caveman-ish marking of your territory, too I suppose <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . I would like to think someday my WW would appreciate that I was willing to stand up for our family, even in a caveman-ish way.

I think the WS is caught between wanting to protect the OP and realizing that they can't. It also brings things that have been secret out into the open. That leaves them (WS) feeling powerless, fearful and that comes out as anger.

It will pass. It's part of what they call "withdrawal" around here.

My W's anger lasted about 1.5 weeks...if that helps.

<small>[ September 24, 2002, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: Riff ]</small>

UGH!! Cant sleep, I am so P'd off right now. Thanks for the input Riff, it does help a bit. Where do either one of them get off being P'd at me. He can screw my W and I'm just supposed to get over it, but I leave a stupid letter and all he** breaks loose?? What kind of BS (not betrayed spouse this time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> ) is that??? She says she didn't even want to look at me today. She barely said 2 words to me when she got home from work. Then she cried on the way home because of what he said. Maybe I should just let them have eachother. If this is how he acts when I do something, imagine how he can get when SHE p's him off. I hope he does call the police. Think about it. First off, he can't prove it was me because I didnt' use any names in the letter, and since he's already proven HIMSELF a liar and a cheater, how likely are the authorites to believe him? Second, he will have to provide the letter as evidence. I bet he can't wait to do that. Third, and most importantly, I checked with the local authorities and I DIDN'T DO ANYTHING ILLEGAL!!!!!!!!!!! So to he** with both of them. They deserve eachother. Let them go baste in their own stupid juices for a while and get a dose of reality. You're right Riff. Maybe this was a huge LB, but at this point I don't give a kaka. It is time I stood up for myself. I am tired of being a doormat. I know this isn't good for my M, but right now I really don't care. I will probably feel differently when I've had a chance to sleep on it but right now I don't CARE!!!@ She says she didn't even want to look at me after that, now she knows how I felt after I found out about the A's!! What right do they have to be mad?? He screwed my W for crying out loud. He can't actually expect not to suffer any repurcussions can he?? Is he really that stupid? He claims I threatened him, the closest I came to that was when I said that IN THE BEGINNING WHEN I FIRST FOUND OUT that the only thing protecting him from me was WW. Since almost day 1 I have known where he lives and works, what he drives, what his W drives. And I got it all with almost no effort. He gave me most of it unknowingly. He called my house from work, DUH!! I have caller ID. And it only took few questions around the bar where WW works to find the rest out about him. I love my W, but enough is enough. I want her with me more than anything, but I've had enough of this fog crap. It's time to wake up and smell what they're shoveling. I thought we were ready to try and start a good recovery, but I think maybe it's time for Plan B, or even Plan D. I really don't know if as much as I love/want her, if I can put up with this anymore. I am venting here instead of at her in the hopes I will clear my head by morning and be able to talk to her rationally in the a.m.. Wish me luck. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

BTW, you're not butting in Riff. I always welcome advice or criticism from anyone. I usually get the latter more often than not but what the heck. It all helps. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Dude, seriously, you're spinning out of control. Chill.

Your W's reaction is normal, predictable even. I know it's crazy-making, but get a grip. In a week or two, she'll settle down.

Try to keep the lines of communication open. Ask how she's feeling about it. Try to find out why she is angry. She too needs to vent, so try and let her. Make it safe for her to share her feelings with you.

Give yourself a day or however long it takes to cool down first.

Think of it this way, this is a perfect opportunity to prove what a keeper you are and what a LOSER the OM is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

And if that doesn't work (if you can't get there from here), just back off. Don't let your W's being angry get you all upset. Detach a little...till things improve.

<small>[ September 25, 2002, 04:56 AM: Message edited by: Riff ]</small>

OK. Got up, took older boys to school. Did my daily workout. Still feel outraged. Have to admit, I think my taker is in complete control right now. And I'm not really caring about it right now. Up all night fuming about this, trying not to LB so I vented here. Got up with kids and took them to school. They usually hava a calming effect when I'm upset like this. I just can't remember being this upset except when I found out about A's. The rage is just overwhelming. WW is still sleeping with baby. Think I will catch a shower and go for a ride. Maybe go and get a milk shake. A real milk shake. Yes, for breakfast even. I think that would be nice. Then I'll come home and take a nap before I go pick the boys up from school. Maybe this will help me relax. I just don't know anymore. Really. Who are they to be P'ed off at me??? When do I get to be P'd off at somebody without it blowing up in my face??

Yup, taker in absolute control right now. Gotta make him step aside for a while. Gonna go now. I will post more later.

Since my taker is in charge now, it has just occured to me that I have spent the last two months apologizing for my mistakes and flaws. She has yet to offer an apology or even ask for forgiveness from me yet. She continually says she feels like a bad person, but no "I'm sorry for what I've done", or "will you ever forgive me?". The closest I have heard yet is "I'm sorry you're hurting". BAH!! HUMBUG!! bunch of kaka to me. poop on it all.

LOL LOL LOL......

Whoa guys..... I take a day off and all heck breaks loose around here!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Hi, Riff.... pleeztameecha.... I'm Cerri.... infamous witch of the really long thread at JFO. No, really a witch......... never mind......

So then, ya did the confront and ask to butt out thing, did ya??? GOOD FOR YOU!!!! (Didn't expect that, did you??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> )

Telling is great. And his violent reaction is one of the reasons why that is so. Do you think he deposited love units by having a raging public argument with your wife, embarrassing her, and threatening legal action? I think not! I think he showed her an ugly side she didn't know existed.

What about POJA you say??? Well, when a spouse is having an A, or refusing to end contact, then the things you need to do to save your marriage, end the A, preserve your family, are NOT subject to POJA.

Let me state that again: You do not need your spouse to be enthusiastic about the things you do to end the affair.... telling, snooping, confronting, making it public.

Why not? Because the integrity of the marriage has already been breached. The things you do to salvage the remains, with the hope of getting to recovery, are picking up the pieces. They are necessary actions driven by the betrayal of the WS.

You should have confronted him the moment you knew about the A. I would say that you should have told his wife as well. Along with your family, her family, your friends, and your religious leader. Affairs do not do well in the light of day. They are able to function well only in the fanatsy world of secrecy.

So she's mad at you. Bummer for her. She'll get over it. You don't need to apologize for what you did. I would suggest however that you empathize with her about how terribly horrid he was when he came to her workplace.

Express shock and dismay that he could treat her so badly. And whatever you do.. NOT ONE TINY BIT of the anger you are feeling gets directed at her. Dump it here.

Tell her you understand that she is hurting. And let her know that you will be there for her. I suspect that she is feeling a little more of the w/d things, having all this blow up in her face. Wait it out, it will pass. Be supportive, show care, and protection is essential.

Now about the apologizing stuff. Yeah, it's pretty typical that the WS doesn't offer an apology for the pain the BS feels. I'm sorry, I wish it were different, but it seems pretty common. It's part of the fog and the denial about what a terrible thing infidelity is. Try to let it go. I know it's not fair... but nobody said life was going to be fair.

And one more thing. I don't like labels. She's simply your wife. The WW thing will cause your resentment to linger longer than if you drop the label.

Sounds like you thought of some ways to relax and destress. I hope it helps. Let me know if you need anything else. I'll be around here til about 2 my time... CT. Back pretty late tonight though...

You did the right thing, it's not always easy, and sometimes you have to get through the consequences of it, but it was the right thing to do.

C

Get the book yet???

Oh and..... my standard lecture on the Taker:

The Taker is NOT a bad guy. The Taker is the part of you that watches out for your best interests.

The Giver doesn't give a rat's patooti about what happens to you or how you feel. The Giver would spend you into the poorhouse and put you in the grave just so it can help other people.

Your Taker keeps that from happening. BUT it's the Taker's STRATEGIES that get you into trouble. See the Taker doesn't give a hoot about anyone else. Just wants to make sure that you are fat and happy. So the Taker's instincts are to use demands, disrespect and anger to get what it wants. THAT's where you need to be careful.

So you have these warring polarities going on all the time. And it gets us into trouble when we allow EITHER of them to rule unchecked. When the Giver gets its way at our expense, the Taker will rear its ungly head and start charging about like the proverbial bull in the china shop.

What we need to learn to do is to sit back and see where each wants us to go, and then to use our intelligence to figure out how to keep both sides happy at the same time. And that is a whole new level of fun that you'll be headed for soon!

C

OMG, where do I begin?? I don't think I got everything I wanted. But I did get what I needed. And here I thought I had gone and flushed it down the crapper. Anyways, here it goes. My W (notice not WW) came in to see me at work today. I dont' know if I've mentioned it before but I had previously left my full time career and kept only a part time job since then. I left my career only partially to work on my M (I left career just before D-day) but I have stayed part time ONLY to work on my M. Anyhow, my W came into my place of employment today to drop off the kids with me before going to work herself. She tells me she needs to talk to me. I (naturally) assume the worst. So I prepare myself to have my heart ripped out of my chest just to watch her dot he Mexican hat dance on it. Instead, she says (she will be moving into new apt. first of month) when she moves in, she would like me to move back in with her!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> She asks if I can leave past behind me. I say I can forgive, but I don't want to forget. Otherwise the lessons we learned and the pain we endured were for nothing. BTW, at this time I am actually restraining myself from doing cartwheels etc... So we talk about it a bit, go to store and pick up a few items. We go back to my POE, swap the kids out, and for the first time in 2 1/2 mos. she tells me she loves me, and what's more, I could see she meant it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . I didn't get the "I'm so sorry", or "I've been such a fool", or anything like that. But I realized that that's not what I'm after. All I was after, and what I got, was for her to look at me the way she did when we got married seven years ago, and an honost-to-God commitment to work on our M. I did indeed get exactly what I needed. I realize we both have a lot of work to do. And some ground work to lay. And I don't think I'm ready to move over to the Recovery board just yet. I'm still working on myself. I like the person I've become/becoming. And more importantly, so does she. We talked a small bit about POJA, and Radical Honosty. But mostly we just basked in the moment. I honostly expected to have to wait much longer before hearing her say these things, and even a part of me expected to have to go to Plan B or even D before I got anywhere near this close. I know that it is entirely possible I am getting my hopes up to high. But just thinking back on the way she looked at me when she said "I love you", I can't help but believe that this is for real. She has agreed to no contact, though she hasn't found a new job yet, so he may show up there again. Hopefully it won't be to start trouble if he does. And don't think for a moment you guys are rid of me yet. You can't be that lucky <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Especially not you Cerri. I'm nowhere near done with you yet. I will have so many questions and problems that will require your omnipotence you may as well just camp out in my front yard <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . But for now, I'll just enjoy the moment. The moment I realized that my efforts were not in vain. It won't be easy, it won't be quick. But if it were, would it realy be worth it anyway? Thanks to all who have helped me already, and to those poor souls who venture into my world to help me in the future (You do realize you're stuck in my world forever right Cerri?) LOL. I have much more to say, but don't know how to say it or even ask the questions I have to ask yet. So I'm going to enjoy my family for a bit, and I'll be back later.
T.T.F.N.

Hi MTD...

Oh dear, dear, dear, dear..... Why do I have to be the bad guy. Oh my.... Oh ooohhhh...

Ok, well here's the thing. The most vulnerable time of repair and recovery for a marriage when there has been an A, is right where you are now.

When the A has ended and the WS wants to reconcile.

You the BS, are so relieved and so happy that at last the hellishness seems to be over and that your spouse actually wants to be part of your life again, that you do things that are not in the best interest of long term recovery.

Living together again without getting a firm commitment to the recovery process is going to backfire on you big time. I wish there was an easier way to say this, or that I didn't have to say it at all, but it's not the thing to do...... yet.

This is the make or break point. This is where you set the stage for real recovery and marriage that can be all you want, or one that is mediocre at best or destroyed by another affair at the worst.

Most marriages that are hit by infidelity do not end in divorce due to the affair. They end in divorce because there is no plan for recovery.

Please, let's talk about this before you jump in. I can help you through this minefield and you can get what you want. But the recovery road is very narrow. You can email me if you want at info@lifeworks-coaching.net ..... and be sure to sign up for my newsletter at www.saveyourmarriagecentral.com

BTW... Joan of Arc is me. It's my story. Or part of it, anyway.

Blessings,

C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BTW... Joan of Arc is me. It's my story. Or part of it, anyway.

Blessings,

C
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No wonder that statement of 'most women can't do a long plan A' sounded strangely familiar.

I won't ask why you did the name change (none of my business anyway), I'm just glad that you finally got out of Persistant's never ending thread and joined the rest of us. Your wealth of experience will benefit us tremendously and may also send business your way (hey we all got to make a living, right?).

Thanks again Lone MB Ranger (who was the masked woman riding that white horse?) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

MTD:

I want to back up what Cerri is telling you: don't jump in too fast, if she isn't ready for a recovery plan, then at least put a time-line on the whole thing: don't just leave it hanging in the air, and assume that it will all just "work out", since you both love one another.

My ex, after 6 months of dilly-dallying about after her A, still couldn't decide what she wanted, and still refused conselling. She even refused to read the material I had downloaded off the MB site for her to read. She just wasn't interested, refused to read anything, and believed in her heart that ANY form of counselling or advice would be aimed at HER, and the "wrong" she did in the marriage. Please emphasise with your wife that this is NOT so. Try as far as you can to encourage her, and promise to make effort on YOUR part, to repair the damage YOU caused in the marriage. This might help.

This is really good news. Proceed with cautious optimism.

Well done with the work for far. Good Luck!

muzohead

Hi TMCM...

No wonder that statement of 'most women can't do a long plan A' sounded strangely familiar.

And if you spent as much time as I do reading and listening to Bill Harley, it would sound even more so!!

I'm just glad that you finally got out of Persistant's never ending thread and joined the rest of us. Your wealth of experience will benefit us tremendously and may also send business your way (hey we all got to make a living, right?).

Out of P's thread???? Heavens no!!! That's my home. You didn't think I was like a real person with a house and all did you??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> LOL

Business would be an amazingly wonderful thing. I often wonder how I'll fit it all in as things heat up here. I've been positioning myself for better exposure, changing my ads, networking, joining organizations that will give me even more visibility. The subscriptions for my newsletter have been pouring in. It's just about ready to send. Gotta make sure it emails ok. Have you signed up yet????

C

Thanks again Lone MB Ranger (who was the masked woman riding that white horse?) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> [/QB][/QUOTE]

I'm baaaack. Sorry I've been gone so long Cerri. Taking care of stuff that I've put off toooooooooo long. Not that I procrastinate or anything. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . Now that I've got my head out of the clouds, here's how it stands now. All contact with OM('s) is ended. She has made a committment to me, to work on our M. My question is this, what type of plan do we need to begin working on our recovery? I have no idea how to proceed from here. We know what we (both) did wrong, and we both want to spend our lives together. But we're not sure what to do keep the past from repeating itself. We can make promises all day long, but that alone doesn't mean we'll have a happy marriage. I am ecstatic, but not dillusional. Well, not completely dillusional anyway. So, now what?

Why do I have to be the bad guy.

Who? You? Hehe, you've helped to keep me from stripping down butt naked and running down the street screaming "WEEE-OOOHH, WEEE-OOHH". Seriously, I don't think I've mentioned it yet, but thank you. From both of us. My W would like to thank you also. She is here beside me as I type this out (pointing out all my grammatical mistakes as well), and she knows what great support you have been for me, as has everyone here. Even the ones who've never read my thread, just for having the courage to post their own stories. Now, I'm not a very patient person these days so GIMME STUFF. I WANT ANSWERS AND I WANT THEM NOW, NOW, NOW!!!! Please <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cerri:
Hi TMCM...
Business would be an amazingly wonderful thing. I often wonder how I'll fit it all in as things heat up here. I've been positioning myself for better exposure, changing my ads, networking, joining organizations that will give me even more visibility. The subscriptions for my newsletter have been pouring in. It's just about ready to send. Gotta make sure it emails ok. Have you signed up yet????
C</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just be careful with the business not consuming you like it did your ex.

No I haven't signed on yet but as soon as I end this post, I will.

TMCM,

Just be careful with the business not consuming you like it did your ex.

No I haven't signed on yet but as soon as I end this post, I will.

What me??? Get obsessive??? Surely you jest!!!

If you did indeed sign up through my site then I'm having technical troubles.... what a surprise with the way this week and a half have gone..... I have no new signups, and I can't seem to email out of that address either.

Maybe I'll just take the day off???? LOL

C

Cerri.

Help, I can't find your website. I thought I could find it on my own without asking for directions (typical male behavior eh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) but I can't. Please point me in the right direction. Thank You.

I'm just glad that you finally got out of Persistant's never ending thread and joined the rest of us.

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Cerri leave the Persistent thread!! ha ha ha ha ha ha

Good luck MTD, glad your M is moving in the right direction. I'm interested in hearing the recovery path as well...

PasDeDeux

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TooMuchCoffeeMan:
<strong>Cerri.

Help, I can't find your website. I thought I could find it on my own without asking for directions (typical male behavior eh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) but I can't. Please point me in the right direction. Thank You.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL LOL LOL LOL Remind me never to take a road trip with you at the wheel <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

www.saveyourmarriagecentral.com

newsletter went this morning, but I'll send you a copy if you get me your email address...

Thanks JoA (see I can keep your secret identity a secret, Cerri, DOH! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ).

I bookmarked it and put my e-mail addy but after I pressed send, I waited, and waited, and waited for confirmation that never came. Tried it a couple of times but again the same thing.

<small>[ October 01, 2002, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Sorry MTD for hijacking your thread. I feel so Al Quaeda. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TooMuchCoffeeMan:
<strong>Thanks JoA (see I can keep your secret identity a secret, Cerri, DOH! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ).

I bookmarked it and put my e-mail addy but after I pressed send, I waited, and waited, and waited for confirmation that never came. Tried it a couple of times but again the same thing.

Here's my e-mail addy: stressedoutjoe@cox.net</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There seems to be some delay with the confirmation. I get 2 or 3 feedback forms for every one addy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

HA!! I really did have a dissociative disorder years ago... so I never really do know who I am!! LOL

JoA.

I got a confirmation e-mail from you, thanks, and the first copy of the newsletter.

When you said it was a labor of love, you weren't kidding, it's awesome.

The theme of honesty is so right on the money.

Helloooooo!!!!

MTD where are you???? How are you doing? I'll be gone Wed thru Sunday... so don't panic if I'm not around.

C

Hello Cerri...I'm here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . I'm sorry, during the move I didnt' have access to a computer. My dsl service hasn't transferred yet so I'm still using my mommy's PC <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . Not much time now, but I'll hop back shortly and update you. Many, many, many, many, etc... (get the idea??) questions for you. Things aren't going badly, but I'm still worried <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . I am afraid we are already beginning to fall into the same trap. Gotta run, bug ya later. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by madly_truly_deeply:
<strong>Hello Cerri...I'm here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . I'm sorry, during the move I didnt' have access to a computer. My dsl service hasn't transferred yet so I'm still using my mommy's PC <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . Not much time now, but I'll hop back shortly and update you. Many, many, many, many, etc... (get the idea??) questions for you. Things aren't going badly, but I'm still worried <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . I am afraid we are already beginning to fall into the same trap. Gotta run, bug ya later. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now tell me you didn't ignore my pleas and move back in together without a recovery agreement???? sigh..........

I told you I'm gone for the rest of the week, right? Ok, good. Back on Monday.

C

Hi Cer, *sigh*. Not entirely. It's just not a very complete agreement. Honostly, we just weren't sure where to proceed. BTW, my SAA never made it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> . We have some plans for keeping communication open, and we have set aside time every week to spend together and as a family. We are happy with the way things are going, but we're still left with the question "What next?". So, I guess my question to everyone is, What next?...

BTW TMCM, don't worry about hijacking my thread. I like the attention. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by madly_truly_deeply:
<strong>Hi Cer, *sigh*. Not entirely. It's just not a very complete agreement. Honostly, we just weren't sure where to proceed. BTW, my SAA never made it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> . We have some plans for keeping communication open, and we have set aside time every week to spend together and as a family. We are happy with the way things are going, but we're still left with the question "What next?". So, I guess my question to everyone is, What next?...

BTW TMCM, don't worry about hijacking my thread. I like the attention. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uhhhhh.... so ya coulda asked me!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I can help you guys with a recovery plan. Is wife on board with the idea? Is she reading posts with you? (Hi Mrs MTD!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

I hope Monday is ok?

C-ya then...

C

Who did you order SAA from? This site? If so call 888.639.1639 and let them know you didn't get it.

Here's your update for the week Cerri. Things are going pretty well. My W is doing a great job of meeting my EN's now. I am trying my best to do the same. I have a questoin however. I have heard that a BS can become ambivelant about reconciliation it they wait too long to move from A to B. What about after reconciliation? In all honosty, I have had a kind of "whatever" attitude towards life the last couple of weeks. Is this common? My W is doing a great job, don't get me wrong, it's just that sometims it seems like I could care less if she tried. I haven't told her how I feel yet becuase I'm not really sure how to explain it. I do love her. I haven't changed my mind or anything. I just feel like it doesn't matter one way or the other. By the way, I found out just after we reconciled about OP#4 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . But it's not an OM, it's an OW <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . WTF!!!! I don't think that has anything to do with the way I feel right now though. It just seems like she wants things back the way they were. I feel like I have put all this effort into making myself a better husban, but she feels like she does not have to change herself. Actually, I can't say that completely. Maybe the changes are just more subtle and gradual than mine were. After D-day, I changed myself fairly quickly. I already knew what was wrong with myself for the mostpart (at least what I thought was wrong) and what I wanted to make better. I just needed a catalyst. Maybe it's different with her. Any thoughts? I could really use your insight, I know I need to tell her how I feel but I want to be careful how I handle the situation. Look forward ot reading you soon. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Sooooo.... did you ever get your book? And how's the computer situation? Have yours hooked up yet?

My W is doing a great job of meeting my EN's now.

That's great. But what about the other conditions of recovery? N/C? Honesty, Time, Care, and Protection? Are those ironed out? Are you both being accountable for time/whereabouts/money 24/7?

What about after reconciliation? In all honosty, I have had a kind of "whatever" attitude towards life the last couple of weeks. Is this common?

I really don't know if this is common. That's a good question. I wonder if it's the letdown after working so hard and hurting so much? An energy drain so to speak?

Also, how much of that is due to resentment and your Taker popping up?

I could see that you might feel that you worked so hard to get to where you are, and she gets to just waltz back in as if nothing happened. And then your Taker could be suggesting that she needs to meet your needs for a while to even the score?

The thing is, in marriage, you don't get to even the score. Well, ok, you can... but then you won't have a marriage to write home about!

My W is doing a great job, don't get me wrong, it's just that sometims it seems like I could care less if she tried.

That's a symptom of w/d. A way to protect yourself from more pain. Are you feeling some fear of being vulnerable and in love because of the things she did that were so painful?

I haven't told her how I feel yet becuase I'm not really sure how to explain it.

Well, dishonesty in your marriage was part of what got you to where you were. So you can't go down that road again. I think you need to take a good look at how you are FEELING and discuss that with her. I really think there's some fear and resentment issues going on there.

The fear in particular is what you need to talk about. We can discuss how you would do that if you like.

But it's not an OM, it's an OW <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . WTF!!!!

Well, even I was shocked at that, and I don't shock easily. There needs to be n/c with that person too, ya know.

It just seems like she wants things back the way they were. I feel like I have put all this effort into making myself a better husban, but she feels like she does not have to change herself.

Exactly. And because you did not define the conditions for recovery before you got back together, you are left feeling taken advantage of. Which, you are.

Any thoughts? I could really use your insight, I know I need to tell her how I feel but I want to be careful how I handle the situation. Look forward ot reading you soon.

I think you should tell her that you are uncomfortable with the way things are, and that you want to negotiate for change in some areas.

Why don't you let me know what it is you need from her that you're not getting and we can put together a plan for negotiating?

C

Hi Cerri. Sorry I've been away so long. Things are interesting to say the least around here. W and I are actually doing really well.

Why don't you let me know what it is you need from her that you're not getting and we can put together a plan for negotiating?

I'm not really sure what I'm not getting. Like I said, she's doing great at meeting my EN's, I just felt kinda "blah" about everything. As far as that goes, I am feeling much better about everything now. You were right (gee, imagine that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) about the plan for recovery. I thought we had it all worked out, but we didn't have a REAL plan, just a sort of "handshake agreement" instead of a contract. Yes, by the way, there is NC with any of OP's. Kind of.

Interesting story here. Let me fill you in. We (W and I) went out last week, whole dinner and a movie thing. Afterwards we stopped to get a drink at a little hang out in town. Guess who walks in. OM#3. As you can imagine it was really awkward, for them. I have a confession. I got a morbid satisfaction watching them both squirm as we passed eachother (we left immediately and passed him on the way out). We passed within two feet of eachother. Him looking one way, her another, and me looking at both of them smiling. Yes I know it's sick, but I couldn't help it. She was very upset about this and I won some love points for comforting her.

Here's the better story. This one has happened twice now by the way. I was at work today when OM#1 came in (he was my friend at one point during the A). He comes in to purposely try to "get at me". Like I said he has come in twice. And as it is, there is nothing I can do becuase where I work he is a customer. Anyway, I was just going to ignore him when he said quite possibly the lowest thing I have ever heard anyone say in my life. He said "So, when you kiss her, can you still taste my d*** on her breath?". Kinda rude eh? Anyway, I kept my composure (barely) and came home in a wonderful <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> mood. Told W what happened. Then I went out in the back yard and threw a temper tantrum. Mature eh? Put a couple of holes in the fence. Think I broke my hand, not sure yet. W was very good during this. She left me alone during my tantrum, then iced it up for me, comforted me. She was very kind and apologetic. Didn't help much at the time, but I see she did the best she could. Just for the record, I am not a violent person and have never in my life raised my hands at someone in anger so don't get the idea that I like to go around beating people up. Although in this case I think I would like it very much. It was what he said that set me off. Enough of that though.

I've realized that I've ignored a few of your questions as of late. Can I start the lessons again professor? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> We have agreed to work out a new plan for the future. I have told her how I felt before. Actually we are working out a plan slowly but more slowly. We spend a couple hours each week talking about things we feel need to improved and the things we think are working out great. We try not to focus on too much at one time so as not to get off track. As I said, we are doing quite well under the circumstances, I just think we could use a little more help. She disagrees but that's one of the things we're going to talk about tonight when she gets home.

You asked me one time if she would be interested in posting here. She's not having it. At least not right now. She thinks we are the only help we need. That "love will conquer all". Yeah, that's worked out great so far hasn't it?

Anyway, that's the long and short of it. Eagerly waiting your response oh wise one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

^^

You were right (gee, imagine that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) about the plan for recovery.

Ahhhhhh young grasshopper... now you learn what all who know me have found. I'm ALWAYS right! LOL LOL LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> We have a little joke at our house. After agreeing to respectfully disagree about something, it will turn out that whatever it was, was exactly as I said. So, then H will just stare at me until I say..."Just say it." To which the obligatory response is, "I hate it when you're right!"

So I'm not quite arrogant enough to think that I know everything, but in this case, I do know about what needs to be done for a good recovery. Mostly cuz I didn't do the best job of it when I was in that position. Am now.

I thought we had it all worked out, but we didn't have a REAL plan, just a sort of "handshake agreement" instead of a contract. Yes, by the way, there is NC with any of OP's. Kind of.

Well, that's much better than not having discussed it at all. And it certainly is a good place to begin negotiating for what it is that you need for full recovery. Here's the drawbaxk though. See, when the WS has left the home, or in some way severed that living together arrangement, then when the A ends and he/she wants to reconcile, you hold the cards. You have the opportunity to set the conditions under which the relationship moves forward..... before it moves anywhere.

Now, once she and you are living together, you've entered into a partnership arrangement again. One in which you are bound to follow the rules for living together. So, you can't really lay out the conditions and say..... here it is, take it or leave it..... because once you have re-entered the R such a statement then becomes a demand. So, you'll have to start flexing those negotiating muscles!

Here's the basic rules for getting what you want and need. It starts with Honesty. Without that as the groundwork, you're going nowhere fast. You need to be Honest (and unfortunately, in today's world I need to state that you must be radically honest.... ) about the way you feel about your spouse's actions, choices, decisions, suggestions. You need to be Honest about the things you want, and the things you don't want.

Your Honesty must be delivered as factual information about you. Not as judgements about what the other person is or is not doing. Simply statements about you, how you feel and what you want.

Then you can request what you would like to have happen. "Honey, I'm unhappy that your job puts you in contact with______. I'd really like it if we could discuss ways that you would have no contact, ever." From that point the two of you can brainstorm solutions for how that might happen. Transfer, different hours, new job, new duties....etc.

But here's the thing. You cannot insist that your spouse enter into those negotiations with you. So the burden of making it pleasant and safe falls on you. You must entice her into negotiating with you by letting her know that it will be pleasant, and maybe even fun. If the smile ever slips from your face, then it's time to change the subject.

Ok.... well I've rambled enough on that topic, I'm sure we'll come back to it later....

We passed within two feet of eachother. Him looking one way, her another, and me looking at both of them smiling. Yes I know it's sick, but I couldn't help it. She was very upset about this and I won some love points for comforting her.

Very funny. Good job on staying cool and pleasant. I think it might be in your best interests to find new places to go out so that there is no chance of seeing him. It brings the A back into the present, reminding both of you. It will only make one or both of you feel bad in the long run. (Sorry to be a party pooper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

Anyway, I was just going to ignore him when he said quite possibly the lowest thing I have ever heard anyone say in my life. He said "So, when you kiss her, can you still taste my d*** on her breath?". Kinda rude eh?

Kinda?????????? That's exactly what I mean about needing to get away from situations where you need to come into contact with the OP. It brings up bad feelings... for both of you. Which is what causes LBnk withdrawals, and the loss of the feelings of love.

Then I went out in the back yard and threw a temper tantrum. Mature eh? Put a couple of holes in the fence. Think I broke my hand, not sure yet. W was very good during this. She left me alone during my tantrum, then iced it up for me, comforted me. She was very kind and apologetic.

Ok, but do you see what you're doing here? It's an Angry Outburst. And it could be construed as punishing her! Now, I'm not saying that any one of us wouldn't have felt like doing exactly the same thing, but the net result will be harm to the marriage. You need to have NO CONTACT with these people.

I've realized that I've ignored a few of your questions as of late. Can I start the lessons again professor? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> We have agreed to work out a new plan for the future. I have told her how I felt before. Actually we are working out a plan slowly but more slowly. We spend a couple hours each week talking about things we feel need to improved and the things we think are working out great. We try not to focus on too much at one time so as not to get off track. As I said, we are doing quite well under the circumstances, I just think we could use a little more help. She disagrees but that's one of the things we're going to talk about tonight when she gets home.

So, how is that going? What I would suggest you do is to get the book HN/HN... Read one chapter each week, separately, and then get together to discuss the questions at the end of each chapter. This would help you pinpoint what it is that each of you needs, and to get the other person's perspecive on how you would feel about doing those things. It would keep you on track, it's a positive forward way of doing things.

You asked me one time if she would be interested in posting here. She's not having it. At least not right now. She thinks we are the only help we need. That "love will conquer all". Yeah, that's worked out great so far hasn't it?

You could give her my email and let her know that I would be happy to anwer any questions that she has about how things are going, or what to expect, or whatever. You do have my email, right???

Anyway, that's the long and short of it. Eagerly waiting your response oh wise one.

Sorry so long, it's really been the month from he**.... which I don't even believe in!

C

Oh, and to answer the topic line of your new post.... Yes, Plan A ends when the A ends and you enter the recovery stage. Plan A is NOT a lifestyle choice. You should be negotiating for the things you want and need in your marriage. Plan A has the element of one sided giving. You cannot and should not do that long term.

Email me if I don't get back here and you're wondering where the heck I got to.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Me again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

Here's the basic rules for getting what you want and need. It starts with Honesty.

Actually, we've been practicing just that. I had a huge page written out here then my PC went straight to the blue screen of death before I had a chance to post my reply <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> . Here's a small example. I have a huge problem with her flirting. She is a huge flirt. She does it with everybody everywhere we go. She constantly needs to feel aproval from everyone (remember the low SE?). I know she doesn't really mean anything by it, and it's just a part of her personality, but it really bothers me. So we had good talk, I was honost but pleasant. I never accused her or attacked her in any way. She responded very well, she said she didn't realize I was uncomfortable with it, but under the circumstances she understands. She promised to, and has, kept the "flirtatious" part of her personality out of her gregariousness. I know it's a small thing, but I thought it was a step in the right direction. She actually even brought up a concern with me. Appearently, I tell her "I love you" too often. She said she feels smothered. I didn't get defensive or anything. I explained why I say it as often, which is because before, I didn't say it enough. But I do understand my saying too often can sort of nullify the effect those words have, especially if there's no action behind the words.

I think it might be in your best interests to find new places to go out so that there is no chance of seeing him.

Yeah, we're working on that. Right now, moving or changing jobs just isn't an option. Instead we're looking for alternative things to do together. Trying new things.

Ok, but do you see what you're doing here? It's an Angry Outburst. And it could be construed as punishing her!

Yeah, I realized that after a while also. Actually she pointed it out. I threw in a few choice phrases when I spoke with her. I didn't mean them as an attack, but that's how they sounded. So we talked about what happened, what I should have done, what we will do in the future if anything like this happens again. Like I said, she was a huge comfort in this thing.

Our talks are going great. She has agreed to do the EN and LB questions with me. And has even talked about reading a few of the books with me. Though she's more interested in reading Dr. Phil. Oy. Oh well, it's a start <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . I will give her your e-mail, if you don't mind though.

Sorry so long, it's really been the month from he**.... which I don't even believe in!

LOl, you don't need to explain to me Cer, you're helping me, remember? BTW, if you don't believe in hell, how do you explain Mr. Rogers and his nieghborhood????

Thanks for clearing up the Plan A by the way. I guess the point I was making would actually fall under negotiating maybe?

HellOOooooOOooooo from the land of children, pets and basketball practice <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Actually, we've been practicing just that. I had a huge page written out here then my PC went straight to the blue screen of death before I had a chance to post my reply

Sorry, been there many times myself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Here's a small example. I have a huge problem with her flirting. She is a huge flirt. She does it with everybody everywhere we go. She constantly needs to feel aproval from everyone (remember the low SE?).

Ok, so in my self appointed role of being nit picky...let's look at that statement. It is prefectly ok, and actually obligatory in terms of honesty to say that you are offended or uncomfortable with her flirting. But to say WHY she does it (at least to her... to me is ok...) is disrespectful. You are in essence telling her that you know what she thinks and how she feels. You don't, unless she tells you, and even then it is subject to change at any time.

I know she doesn't really mean anything by it, and it's just a part of her personality, but it really bothers me. So we had good talk, I was honost but pleasant. I never accused her or attacked her in any way.

Very good. Honest, pleasant, factual... not demanding.... all right in line with the way to get what you want, or at least start a dialogue.

She responded very well, she said she didn't realize I was uncomfortable with it, but under the circumstances she understands. She promised to, and has, kept the "flirtatious" part of her personality out of her gregariousness. I know it's a small thing, but I thought it was a step in the right direction.

Well, it depends on how you look at it. Taken alone, stopping the flirting may be a small thing. But in the global concept of taking your feelings into account when she makes her decisions, and being able to follow through with a change in habits..... in my book that HUGE. It says a lot about her willingness to do what it takes to recover. I'm impressed.

She actually even brought up a concern with me. Appearently, I tell her "I love you" too often. She said she feels smothered. I didn't get defensive or anything. I explained why I say it as often, which is because before, I didn't say it enough. But I do understand my saying too often can sort of nullify the effect those words have, especially if there's no action behind the words.

This is even better. It's far more difficult to be honest about the things that bother us than most people think. If I were you, I would go one step further, and ask her what kinds of things you could do for her to show that you love her. If saying the words feels smothering, is there something she would like. Flowers? Candy? Clothes? (my favorite <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) Jewelry? Hand holding? Back rubs? Email notes? Little cute gifts? Brushing her hair? Running a bath with candles, music and no expectation of sex..... I'm sure you can think of more.

Yeah, we're working on that. Right now, moving or changing jobs just isn't an option. Instead we're looking for alternative things to do together. Trying new things.

Very good. I think if you go to the questionaires section of this site, there's an inventory you can fill out together that lists recreational activities. It's fun to do and to talk about.

How about this, why don't you print out 2 copies, fill it out, and then take her out for dinner or just coffee and talk about your answers. Plan to spend at least an hour and a half away from home, just the two of you, doing this exercise.


Yeah, I realized that after a while also. Actually she pointed it out. I threw in a few choice phrases when I spoke with her. I didn't mean them as an attack, but that's how they sounded. So we talked about what happened, what I should have done, what we will do in the future if anything like this happens again. Like I said, she was a huge comfort in this thing.

Yes, discussing what to do in the future is a good idea. You personally need to have a plan so that never again do you lose your temper in the presence of your wife. Zero tolerance. And in actuality, there should be zero tolerance for losing your temper at all. If you do it in some situations it can easily become a habit that gets out of hand. I don't want to have to be sending you to anger mgt!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Our talks are going great. She has agreed to do the EN and LB questions with me. And has even talked about reading a few of the books with me. Though she's more interested in reading Dr. Phil. Oy. Oh well, it's a start <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . I will give her your e-mail, if you don't mind though.

Reading the books and discussing will do way more for you than doing the questionaires. I personally don't like Dr, Phil. I object to his methodlogy of being rude and confrontational. Since I think that kind of behavior has no place in relationships, I guess I find it offensive as a teaching tool. For me, it obliterates the message.

Yes, certainly give her my email. I'd be happy to answer questions or to help out with whatever. Maybe when I finish my book, she'll find that helpful... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

BTW, if you don't believe in hell, how do you explain Mr. Rogers and his nieghborhood????

Excellent point! And then there's the lower levels of he** comprised of Barney and the Teleetubbies!!!! LOL LOL LOL

Thanks for clearing up the Plan A by the way. I guess the point I was making would actually fall under negotiating maybe?

Yes! Thank you!!!! It's my personal crusade to remove that terminology for anything other than what it was devised to do. See, there goes that obsessive streak again!

Later,

C

Hi Cerri. Not much time. Just wanted to let you know I read your post and will think about what you said. Get back to lyou later <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Just to let you know that several things are getting very busy here. (See my thread at JFO) If you post something to me, and I don't show up.... PLEASE send me an email and let me know that you're waaaAAAAaaiting. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I'm just as happy to answer questions, but I might not see them as soon as I did in the past. Don't be afraid to bug me by email.

C