IF THERE IS ANYONE OUT THERE THAT HAS FOLLOWED MY STORY (OR HAS THE TIME TO READ IT NOW), I COULD REALLY USE YOUR ADVICE ON THIS ONE...

Even though I just recently read about "Plan A", I have actually been practicing it for the last 6 months. Unfortunately, my H is only just beginning to understand that Plan A can only go so far, and that it takes TWO for it to be successful.

Last Sunday, I caught my H in another lie about who he was with the night before. Since then, he made a bunch of promises to me, admitted some of his lies to the OW, and didn’t call her again. …..Until last night.

I went out for about 45 minutes to run an errand and when I came home, I came right out and asked him if he had called the OW while I was gone. He said that he hadn’t, but he knew that I could tell he was lying again, so he shamefully admitted it. I went to bed, he read some more of the material that I had printed from this website (because he knew that it was important to me), and he spent the rest of the night in the other room, feeling lousy about himself.

I know that he was totally sincere, this morning, when I was crying and he held me and told me how much he hated what he has been putting me through. After reading that post from Trueheart, he finally got a CLUE about MY ENs. But, as soon as I stopped crying, he took some money, went down to his favorite hang-out for breakfast and, several hours later, I broke down again and called him. He was still there, hanging out with his friends but he said that he was coming home soon. He could tell that I was still upset, but I tried to let it go – there were no LBs. When it stopped raining and the sun came out, he finally came home - but only to get on his motorcycle and leave again. He knew that I was unhappy about that, but he left anyway and was gone for the rest of the day without even calling me. So, even though he has finally realized that he should start paying more attention to MY needs, he turned right around and continued to be selfish.

After a few more hours, I called him again and committed a few LBs, which only made him more reluctant to come home. He ignored the rest of my calls, forcing me to talk to his voicemail over and over again, so I ended up committing the biggest LB of them all…. I said that I was going to get online and start filing for a divorce. THAT’S when he finally called me back. But he still didn’t have anything nice to say - he was just defensive, (claiming that he’d just been spending time trying to get his head together and figure out what to do about the mess that he’s gotten himself into), and he STILL wasn’t on his way home, so I just committed more LBs and hung up on him. He kept calling, still unkind, so I kept hanging up. Consequently, he still hasn’t come home, probably just to spite me. (It is now 2am). He knows when I’ve gotten to the point where everything I say and do is just a manipulative attempt to get him to come home and give me the attention that I want. But I don’t just want it anymore, I NEED IT! And I think I deserve it. If he cares at all about my ENs, he shouldn’t have even let me get to this point.

He should have stayed with me when he saw me crying and knew that I needed him, he should have answered my phone calls and he should have come home when he knew that I had gotten desperate enough to leave manipulative messages on his voicemail. Instead, he chose to ignore me and upset me to the point of no return. It wouldn’t have gotten to this point if he had just, for once, put his own needs aside for mine. But he is only concerned with his own ENs and isn’t even thinking thinking about what he should or could do for me and my ENs.

I know that it may seem hasty for me to expect so much when it appears that he’s just beginning to come out of the fog, but I have been going through this for over 6 months, and when he finally did realize that I had needs, too, he chose to ignore them, anyway.

I want to move on to Plan B but neither one of us has a place to go to for more than a day or two, nor can either one of us afford to pay for a place to stay. If I divorce him, I will basically be forcing him out onto the street. So my question is…..

Am I still wrong for the LBs? Should I try to continue with Plan A? Or Should I do what I said I would and file for the divorce?

Hi Keepin' the faith,
++This is very long so watch out.++ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> but I had a lot I wanted to share. These are all suggestions so feel free to ignore me or use what you feel pertinent.

I feel for you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> that H is doing all of this business of ignoring you and doing as he pleases. It sounds like you are trying to make it work but you have an unwilling partner right now, plus you have other things that need some work.

It isn't wrong for you to expect him to comfort you and love you and do all the things that your marital vows promised. Thing is, is he willing to give that to you right now? Maybe not but that doesn't mean you have to sit by and do nothing.

You've been in Plan A for a while so it seems that unproductive habits have formed. Your H has gone over boundaries many times from what I've read in previous post. I saw that RH recommended that you draft Plan B. You mentioned the D word. Where are you at in this? Have you talked to him about next consequence if he crosses the line again?
If you aren't ready for Plan B or the D word then maybe Plan A needs to be tweaked.

Dr Harley says Plan A is a 3-6 month time frame intervention. Remember it is not intended to save the M. It is intended to end the A. So it really isn't something that 2 of you have to do. It is something that you move on to hopefully break up the A. Recovery/reconciliation is something that the 2 of you do.

I haven't followed your whole story so I may not have some of the answers. But have you contacted family about what he is doing? Have
sought to C OW H if there is one? Church leader if you have one, or someone H respects and respects H? There is a link below for more detail.

I know that what your H is doing is painful and especially with you being there trying to save what you have. But now you are past 6 months and the next steps that you take are important. If you aren't ready for Plan B what are you willing to change?

About unproductive habits: Cycle-> He feels guilty-> consoles you-> goes on to do what he wants-> you LB-> then you seeking to make him answer you by desperately calling and trying to manipulate him to calling.

So what do you want? Do yu want to continue in this cycle? With the LBing and arguing, have you laid down a good foundation in Plan A to go to Plan B? Or do you feel it is just too hard now and want to move to Plan B? If so, are you preparing yourself for handling no contact with WS? Are you ready financially?

If your answer is no, then it is time to change focus <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> :

You noted that H is in love w/ OW. It may seem that this is a very difficult obstacle to get past. But it doesn't mean that your H doesn't want your M. However regardless of what he is doing you will have to decide what your mission is and work on it in light of his behavior. Try not to focus on her (OW). Try to detach from what H is doing and saying. Instead focus on keeping a steady handle on what you are doing.

There seems to be times when he is there for you. Thanksgiving dinner, consoling you (though he is the cause for concolsing). Try to capitalize on these times to share and have communication w/out blaming, arguing, focusing on her. Cause remember at that time you are in his arms, not her.

TWEAK IT (Plan A)-Some Suggestions:
>From previous post a lot of arguing and LBing has gotten in the way. Now you have to do a 180. Time to change methods of communicating. If it is too diffcult talking about something between you, hold off. If you have a computer consider emailing each other, yes even though you live in the same house. Try doing more on the phone. If tension, finger pointing, arguing builds up, you be the one willing to step aside.
Afteall, you want answers, right? Not fueding. Yes, much easier said than done. We're rooting for you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

> Negotiations: Want H to stop A. Ask for no contact (NC). Ask him after carefully deciding what to tell him about how you love him and want to save M, to send NC letter. Discuss consequence if he crosses the line again. Let him know the hurt it is causing. Let OW know, try not to call names or argue or be defensive with her. Let her know your intent (*A thing about the OW, be ready to expect whatever may come out of her mouth <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> so make it short and sweet).
This is the time when we (women) usually want to lay on the tears (to H not OW). However partners sometimes become insensitive. If he is sensitive let him see what you feel. If he is insensitive state hurt omit feelings. Let him know though w/out LBing. Tell him how you feel about what the 2 of you have together and how you want to save it.

>You want to know what he is doing when he isn't home, right? You want to know if he is with her right? Flip side of this: What if you don't know, will worrying about it make you happy? If he is with her when he isn't home though you don't want him to be, will it change because you are concerned about it? Instead of pressing for these answers, maybe there is there a way for you to interrupt him going to see her. I mean, in a gentle, appealing, creative way. Try to be there for him and with him when you can. Try not to let concern for whereabouts prevent you from being productive.

> Are you still wrong to LB. Let me put it to you this way, does LBing help your efforts?
When you do it, do you find that he becomes more distant? Do you find that you miss important bits of information and oppurtunities? Do you find that he may go right to her (OW) and tell her what you did?

Identify which LB you are doing. Try to get to the heart of why you do it. I've found that irrational thoughts contributed a lot to mine and acting on instinct. So I recommend going over LB article again. Also here is a site that has helped me immensely, www.rational.org.nz

>Ask about what is going on but try not to demand or push. Look at his actions. Remember believe nothing they say and 50% of what you see. Watch the things around you, cell phone bills, wanting to keep things private, signs of cheating. Look at how he treats you.
No LBing (much easier said than done, but try). What can you possibly learn about his actions? Also try not to discuss the discoveries that you make.

>Realize that you can't control your WS. You can only control yourself. So you are going into this independent of him. He may slip up and stumble or stubbornly not comply at all.
Either way this is your mission. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

>Find his needs, what started the A. What s happeneing with him or you that encourages A?
Do EN questionnaire if you haven't already.

> If your H is running away from you, it is best not to run after him. Meaning making the manipulating phone calls repeatedly. As you noted earlier he doesn't respond when you do anyway. Also, this may say you are desperate for him. If you are desperate then you won't leave, you'll keep putting up with what he's doing. Well if it comes to leaving (Plan B) he'll understand that you did your best, put up with some stuff, made your plea, now you are outta there.

>Right now he is allowing the A to take him over. So though you expect him to he may not do the right thing. You will have to show him by not LBing, by filling the EN that he will allow you to. But understand that you are doormate so your needs may not be met. By the same token as you meet his you may be able to show him how to meet yours.

Though the next 2 items are mentioned last, it doesn't say that they aren't important. They are very important.

>What is going on in your life right now? Move on, do your thing. Let him know you have a life.
Try not to let this consume you.

>Take care of yourself and your family (if you have kids). Don't forget to nurture yourself too.

Let him see a different you. You are fighting for the M but in a different way. WIshing you the best. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

If not, Plan B maybe next in order. If so, could you do Plan A until one of you could save money to go to Plan B? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Wishing you the best.

Well even though you think your H is totally sincere in not wanting to hurt you, he is continuing to do it. Follow the MB program which is Plan A, then Plan B. It is not your problem where he goes. When I put my H out of the house he asked where he was supposed to go, and I told him go wherever you planned to go when you kept seeing the OW. I know - big LB, but I'd had it. Now he is living with OW. He did want to come back several times, but she was still in the picture and I realized he wanted back more to have a place to live and be able to make his Harley payments. After this much time in Plan A, your H should be spending time with you and absolutely not having contact with OW. If you stay in Plan A, you may continue to LB because his cake-eating is very painful. Remember there is nothing between doing and not doing. He says he is sorry and will have NC, but his actions prove otherwise. I vote for Plan B. Otherwise you could get so hurt that you will end up with a divorce. Hang in there and let us know what is going on. Also get your ducks lined up - get a job and watch finances - let him pay for motorcycle.

Keepin' the Faith,

You have great help for you to make decisions. I am already suggesting to you start drafting & thinking the logistic and re-evaluate to go plan A or B.

You know your H better than anyone here and you know your situation better than anyone. We could only give our bias oppinion based on our experience. Think about it hard ... Plan B is withdrawing your love from him and push him to seek it somewhere else. Is OW ready to take him ?, is he ready to go ?, are you ready to face the final outcome 50-50 of Dv ?. You decide.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Am I still wrong for the LBs? Should I try to continue with Plan A? Or Should I do what I said I would and file for the divorce? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, LB is wrong regardless. This is my 2¢. You are at the end of your rope. However don't file for Dv, you would regret it, not now and not yet. Plan A has to be combine with no LB adn fillin ENs to deposit love. (1)Review your "plan A" ... you clean you house 8 hours a day and leave no dust at all but if DS is not his top ENs and he just make a remask since he saw something dirty ... you miss the target by a mile. Talk to him about the ammends for you if he break the NC or lie again. (2)Get your plan B letter/plan B ready. Remember H choose to be WH ... living out on the street probably what he need ... (a) you are enabeling (b) you are not responsible for his behavior. Make sure you tell him that until he want to be H and not WH, don't let the door hit you on the way out. (3) Please, if contact Harley for conseling. If you read all the material and know MB, you save a lot of sessions ... I got advice from him on my first session !. Tweeking & changing my plan A. (4) Read also Boundry in M, you might need to read that before you start plan B

Contact Orchid, she has experience on this !. You could save yourself 2 years of heartache !.

Good Luck and God Bless you -rh-

Freetobe, Believer and Redhat:

OK, I have gone back to Plan A, but he still hasn't come home because he still mad and being stubborn. He has called, but only with angry things to say. So I guess we are sort of in Plan B and I have stopped calling him, but he has to come home at some point because he's still on his bike (in the rain), and he doesn't have any extra clothes or any money.
I know that he was not with her last night, he stayed at a friend's house a few blocks away. But I do know that she called him a couple of times since he's been gone.
No, the OW does not have a H. She is divorced. I really want to send her an email but I don't know what to say to her that would help me get her out of our lives, for GOOD. Any suggestions?

Thanks for all of your supportive responses. They are really helping. Please reply again.

ORCHID:
I would love to hear from you, too!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Keepin' the Faith:
<strong>ORCHID:
I would love to hear from you, too! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Send email mborchid2@yahoo.com. She usually hang around at GGQII.

-rh-

Ok, Keeping the Faith,
Glad to hear from you. H is coming home. WHat is your plan? You are stilll in Plan A so what will you say when he comes home? Tryig not to LB. So what is your next move?

Freetobe

He's still being stubborn and hasn't come home because he THINKS I will LB, but I have told him that I won't LB. I won't. It will be very difficult if he comes home and he is still LBing, but I promise not to. I'm just going to wait and see if he grabs his things and leaves or if he stays. If he stays, I think I'll just be quiet and leave him alone until he's ready to talk. I have already admitted my LB mistakes, so he knows that I will be nice as long as he is. Most likely, he won't be nice at first, but I will just try to be patient. I'll let you know what happens. Please keep an eye out for me. I enjoy hearing from you.

I would love to hear from others, too!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Keepin' the Faith:
"I have already admitted my LB mistakes, so he knows that I will be nice as long as he is."

"If he stays, I think I'll just be quiet and leave him alone until he's ready to talk."


Keeping the Faith
From your post I see you are working in Plan A, acknowledging your error in LBing and anticipating that he may be stubborn but you don't want to act defensive. So you're making progress.

If he isn't nice, how will you respond? If he is open to talking, what will you say? What if he doesn't talk at all, will you LB? Do you have a focus in mind of what you'd like to talk to him about? Though things might have been diffcult before he went out, when he returns then you'l have a chance to make an impression. I'm rooting for you. Also, I'm with you on no LBing and I will agree with you and work on it not to do it in my R either. Hope everything works out for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

SUCCESS!!!!!!!

At first, there was a bit of an argument because he was still defensive when he walked in the door, but we eventually talked about all of the feelings and emotions that we each have beem deaLing with while apart, and we ended up hugging and kissing!!!

Our problems are not not completely solved yet, but I think we both finally understand each other's needs and we've both agreed to work on what we've learned in order to make things better in the future and ..... SAVE OUR MARRIAGE!!!

THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!

Glad to hear the good news.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Keepin' the Faith:
<strong>Our problems are not not completely solved yet, but I think we both finally understand each other's needs and we've both agreed to work on what we've learned in order to make things better in the future and ..... SAVE OUR MARRIAGE!!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Watch out. You are in the top of coaster and you are not off yet. Did he agree for conseling ? Did her agree to ammends you if he break his promise ? ... WH is home doesn't mean he is H again, he is just a WH has nowhere to go. He does nothing to earn his place but come back home.

Again this is your M and your life and you know better what happens in your household. You are a long way from saving your M ... you are a long way even from recovery of M.

Good luck -rh-

Hi Keepingthe faith,

How are things going now? Just wanted an update.
Also I found this post that I thoguht was hilairous ane wanted to share it with you.
It is by a poster named Takola. Her explanation follows on post #6.

The link for it is below:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=29;t=003843

Redhat

Thanks. I'll be careful. Yes, he did agree to the consequences if he breaks his promise and, yes, he has agreed to counselling.

freetobe

That post from Takola was HILARIOUS! Thanks!

I know it's not going to be smooth sailing, and it's very possible that he'll (at least) talk to her again (hopefully only one more time), and he hasn't written the N/C letter, yet, because we just got back from the Emergency Room - he has kidney stones! Great timing, huh? Nevertheless, I won't forget what you all have taught me and I'll keep you informed. Meanwhile, I'm......
Keepin' the Faith

Freetobe ...great advice! Keep up the good work...

Keepin' the Faith ...good to hear the latest positive news! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But sorry to hear about the kidney stones...your H has my sympathy, I know how it feels ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I hope you experience smooth sailing for a while but I thought -- you remember that you're on a roller-coaster! -- that an exercise in emotional detachment might prove helpful. If you are so inclined, I posted the info on lbc's thread...

Keep up a good Plan A...share the info re: the N/C letter (let me know if you need the link) with your H...mine found it enlightening to read what others had written...particularly the one by the WW because she shares her emotions freely about how damaging the A has been...hard stuff for a guilty WS to read...

But most of them are very impartial...your H can probably pick and choose the phrases to use to suit himself...

Good luck...awed

awed18

I would love to have the link. Please post it. Thanks!

Here it is...

sample N/C letters

O'kay, my H promised to end the A. I told him what Harley said about the withdrawal period, and he wants to find a councellor to talk to. Does anyone know of a good counsellor in the SF East Bay Area, that can relate to Harley's strategies regarding infidelity?
I would really appreciate some referrals. Thanks!

<small>[ December 15, 2003, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: Keepin' the Faith ]</small>