My girlfriend of three years recently left me for another guy. I ignored her for a long time in our relationship and never fully appreciated her. She kept pushing to get married , but I never wanted to talk about it. I suppose I was not ready for the next chapter in my life. I really did love her, but I did not work on the realtionship, and things got stale. Her problem has always been a lack of communication. Apparently she has had numerous issues with our realtionship she would not discuss with me. These things built up over time, until she could not take it. Yet, I was not aware of most of her issues. I felt she must be happy if she wanted to get married.<BR>She told me 4 months ago that she wanted to see other people. I was convinced that this was basically an ultimatum, and told her to go ahead if that would make her happy. What a jerk!<P>We did not see each other for several weeks, and I thought about what I really wanted. I decided I wanted her in my life and that we should get married. We got back together but did not discuss our issues. Five weeks later she told me she was seeing someone else for the past month or so.<P>I was blind sided, and very angry. She asked the next day if I would consisder counseling, and said she was very sorry for cheating on me. I agreed to talk about things and go see a counsler. At the end of that week she said she was not sure if she wanted to work on things and just could not decide.<P>For the next 5 weeks we saw each other, and she continued talking to this other guy. I did everthing I didn't do before, and I tried to address her two biggest issues,communication and being more affecionate. I also told her that I did want to be married. While we still spent a lot of time together, she was never really "all there". After five weeks of this I told her that I could not take this indecision any longer (it was killing me) and that I needed to get on with my life. I told her to call me when she finalled resolved her issues (she is seeing a counselor about her lack of communiction), and if she wanted to seriously worked on things, and say goodbye to this other guy, I she should call me. She called in two days and she said she was ready to work on things.<P>We spend the holidays and a vacation together over New Years. I was trying everything I could do to be affecionate, understanding, etc. Every time I asked her how things were, she said fine. We were a lot closer then the previous five weeks, but not back to normal. <P>The day we returned from our vacation, she called the other guy, went out with him the next day, and broke up with me the day after that. She said things just were not working out. When I asked for details, she said that she could not put her finger on it. We had not really even discussed anything, or seen a counselor yet. (Her idea, she didin't want to discuss anything right away because we were both so emotionally drained)<P>I have not seen or heard from her since, and it has been a week. I truly love this girl and would do anything to work on things, but how do I convince her of that? She thinks just being together for the two weeks over the holidays was trying. She also says this other guy has nothing to do with our break-up, which I just don't believe. (I found out later she tried to call him while we were on vacation)<P>I can't convince her that things could be different. I think she just wants to be with this guy.<P>I'd really like to talk to her, but at this point I think any attempt at working on things has to come from her. Which I just don't think will ever happen.<P>I feel horrible because I feel that most of the problems in our realtionship were my fault, and I pushed her towards someone else. <P>What can I do?<P>

I seriously doubt she is seeing someone else because you "ignored her and pushed her away." You may have done that, but relationships are a two way street. I do not believe you can look within yourself to find reasons why other people do things. Let's face it, you just don't have that much influence.<P>If she has left you, it has something to do with her and where she is at. Maybe she doesn't know what she wants. Maybe she does and you are not it. It could be anything.<P>Here is something I have seen a few times. It seems to me that a certain amount of maturity is required before people realize that they have personal control over how they feel in a relationship. Many people believe quite the opposite. They think how they feel is somehow under the control of the other person or the situation. I'm sure you have heard the talk, there is almost a distinct lingo for it. They use phrases like "soulmates", "meant to be together", "perfect fit", etc. They say things like "We just weren't well suited to each other." "I need someone who can meet my needs." "I have a right to be happy." (Which is true but not in the context used here. The speaker means to obtain happiness by altering his external situation, which never works.)<P>So what I am trying to say is that each person is responsible for whether or not they are happy. We do have control over our emotions to that extend if we want to have it. They do not have to control us. The world is the way we want to see it.<P>But not everyone has that figured out. If your girlfriend believes that somehow it was your fault that she wasn't happy, she probably doesn't. Maybe the relationship wasn't working, I will give her that, but chances are she needed to do something to fix it too, and not just you. That's kind of the way these things work.<P>Fact is, if she is leaving, it is being motivated from within her. You can't make her come back and be happy. She has to find it within herself. Right now she may be believing that she can find happiness by "finding the right guy". If that is so, it is probably best to watch that process from a distance.<P>On the other hand, maybe you really did screw up and she is leaving for good reason, I don't know.<P>Anyway, I believe you can't make anybody see anything until they are ready to see it on their own. So if she wants to go, no matter what the reason, your best bet is to let her go. Make sure she knows you love her, that you are sorry, and wish her well. Also maybe mention you would like her to call if she just wants to talk, and you don't want her to be afraid or embarrassed to do so. Then let her go. Then get on with your life, she will be a while.<P>If she comes back, you win. If not, well, it looks like that is the way it is going anyway.<P>That's my advice, for what it's worth. Make sure in the end whatever you do, you are comfortable with it.

nonplused,<P>Thanks for the reply, good advice.<P>I wrote my original post about a week ago, and just managed to get it on the forum today.<P>Since then, I am really doing a lot better.<P>Like I said before, I know there are a lot of things that I did wrong, and I am seeing someone in regards to the way I sometimes was just not very nice to my ex. (Teasing, sargastic remarks, etc.) <P>Sometimes I think I was trying to get her to stick up for herself, I really don't know. I accept what I did, I feel horrible about it, and I which it didn't happen. But it did, and there is nothing I can do about that now, except learn from my mistakes, and try to understand why I did what I did.<P>But I can not, and will not, accept responsibility for her not talking to me about issues that bothered her throughout our three year relationship. Even when she broke up with me she did not tell me any of her issues. You can't have a relationship with someone who refuses to tell you how they feel. <P>We both have personnel issues, and I only wish we would have went for counseling a long time ago. Both separately and together. I think if we had supported each other through each others problems, we could have become very close.<P>I did everything I could possibly do to change things after the ex finally told me, and I realized what some of her issues were, and it was not easy under the circumstances. I do feel at peace with myself however, because I did all I could do, and I am glad I was able to do it.<P>I have not heard from the ex and I doubt I will. I will not be calling her. Right now I am going to work on myself. I realize now that I can't change how she feels. Only she can do that.<P>Thanks again.<P>

Hi JJ,<P>I'm a bit north of you ... in Central Jersey... <P>You sound like you did try... a lot!<BR>Since there was no marital commitment... you were spared a lot more grief than there could have been...<P>Life is hard...<BR>You sound like you're moving on...<BR>It is for the best...<P>You now know what is required in a good relationship... make sure the next girl you find is on the same wave length.<P>Make sure you have already read <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6020_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>"His Needs, Her Needs"</A> and she has too... <B>before</B> the marital commitment!<P>Good Luck...<P>Jim

Jim,<P>Thanks a lot. This weekend was really hard, as I miss her very much.<P>I am struggling to accept the fact that she is not coming back. I would like to try the 180 technique that DB talks about, becasue I know that has worked with her in the past. But since we are not married, and do not have any contact with each other, I don't know how to do so. I also do not want to give myself any false hope.<P>I have not contacted her, which I know is the right thing to do.<P>I backslid a lot this weekendand, and was really quite angry at her. I really miss her, and that is setting in. I keep thinking that she does not have to go through the pain of lonlieness since she orchestrated her plans to avoid all this. She has someone else, and it must be a lot easier on her.<P>Well, at least I can live with myself.<P>Thanks again,<P>Feeling down,<P>JJ<BR>

JJ,<P>Don't feel down...<P>Stay here and read... and "lurk"...<P>There is a lot of growing you can do here... and when the "right" one comes along... she will really cherish you.<P>The ladies on this forum are all so impressed when the hear the men come to such "realizations"... and they are in awe of our understanding of what it takes to first build a relationship... and then more so... to <B>build on</B> that relationship.<P>If your friend comes back... that's great...<BR>If she doesn't... make <B>yourself</B> better...<P>Hey... did you get the book yet?...<BR>It's a good one.<P>Jim<p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited January 17, 2000).]

Jim,<P>Thanks,<P>I was doing better, but the amount of free time has really bummed me out. I just wish we both would have worked on our seperate issues a long time ago.<P>I read your bio. Man, you desreve a lot of credit for not throwing in the towel. I imagine when kids are involved it really gives you a lot more motivation.<P>Are you making any progress?<P>Where is your first thread?<P>I picked up DB over the weekend and another by Gary Smalley wich I can not remeber the title.<P>Thanks again.<P>

JJ,<P>Wow... I had to check... but my first post was back in September 1999... at <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/007797.html" TARGET=_blank>Do I continue with divorce proceedings?</A><P>And unfortunately... no things are not any better... <P>I lost a restraining order (1/7/2000) that I had keeping the OM from spending overnights with my kids... <P>And... my wife wants to speed up the divorce by declining postponements on the Early Settlement Panel(ESP) process we have here in New Jersey... For this, I go to court January 25th... <P>Yesterday... she drops the kids off... and gives me more F... ..U's. My fault... I tried to give her another rose (dummy me.)<P>So, <B>no</B>... it's not going well... but I stay the course... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A> all the way... well until I'm boxed into a <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A>!<P>BTW: I have a post out there that lists a lot of other books... if you haven't gotten your fill yet...<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/010158.html" TARGET=_blank>Books... books... books... (again)</A>.<P>Thanks for your kind words too. <P>Jim

Jim,<P>I'm really sorry.<P>It sounds like your wife is just like my ex. As I have said before, I know I did a lot of things wrong, but x never brought most of her issues to my attention, she just let the unhappiness bulid until she could not take it anymore. <P>What I don't understand is that after the issues have been at least partially identified, why will do they not want to try and work on things?<P>In my case, my x and I were togteher for only three years and my plea was to try and work things out for three months, if no progress, we move on with our lives.<P>But you and your wife had been together for so long, and you have three kids, I do not understand why she would not want to go to counseling, or try anything else that might help.<P>What I think bothers me more so then the OM is that instead of trying to work on things, she lined this other guy up so that she would not be alone. I find that very weak. If two people can't work things, I really think they should spend time alone and take a break betwen realtionships. Other people complicate the issue.<P>Jim, far be it from me to give advice, but maybe, just maybe,it's time to look at Plan B. If you are not ready for it, perhaps try to adjust your game plan so that you have a definite date to start Plan B. It seems that your wife does not even want to discuss any plans to work on things. <P>Maybe it is time that she knows that you are getting on with your life. (even if that is not 100% true.) I think in a way it is easier on you as well.<P>But, you know yourself best, and if you continue to endure,,...<P>Again, you deserve a lot of credit. <P>Good Luck and thanks for being there for me. I am sure we will chat soon. <P> <BR>

JJ,<P>Yeah... I did think of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A>. Before I was going to go for it I called Steve Harley at MB and after 2 sessions he suggested that I stick with <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A>... once the divorce trial date is set... I'll contact him again...<P>Yeah... my W ruled out reconciliation... as best as I can judge... the day of "discovery'(D-day). No marriage counseling... no anti-deps(for her)... no nothing!<P>It is inevitable that I go to <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A>... but while I can... I just try and deposit the love units... (even if I hear them bouncing off of the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3200_love.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Bank</A>) with as "pure" a <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan A</A> as I can muster.<P>It's not that hard... (the no <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busters</A> that is)<BR>I have a thick skin I guess...<BR>and let the insults (most) roll off my back.<P>I'll let people know my situation...<BR>The 25th of January is coming up next week...<BR>I'll, again, be asking for prayers from everyone here... <P>Thanks again JJ, <P>Jim

Well, reading through this, for some reason the thought that popped in to my mind was the old adage: "Anything can happen, and usually does."<P>Unfortunately it usually happens at 2:30 AM Wednesday morning 2 years after you gave up waiting for it and found something else to do, and have a headache besides.<P>That doesn't help does it? Oh well.

Nonplused,<P>Unfortunatly,<P>That is exactly what I am afraid of. I know I should move on with my life, but I have been backsliding a lot.<P>The fact that we never got a chancee to work on things is what is really killing me.<P>I hope things work out for the best for you and your friend.

Jim,<P>I have really been having a hard time these last couple of days.<P>The more time passes the less I feel we will have a chance to talk, and the more she will fall in love with the OM.<P>But I just don't think me calling her will work at this point.<P>How have you been able to hold on for so long? I am really depressed. Have you tried Prosac or an equivalant? I might ask my counselor to right me a script.<P>One positive note, (I think). After she said it was over, I told her I would be returning all the Christmas presents she gave me. She said she would do the same. I FedEx'd mine the next day. I have not received anything from her. A friend talked to her and it seems that me sending the things back so quickly bothererd her. (He didn't waste any time doing that). I am thinking she is waiting for me to call and find out what the deal is. I do not plan on doing so. I will wait for her to make the first contact.<P>I just keeping thinking it is not healthy to look at something like that with promise.<P>What do you think?

JJ,<P>I'm not on any medication... but do occaisionally take St John's Wart. To get a prescription drug... you'll have to go to your MD.<P>Many here do "live" on these kinds of medication... and without them... we'd be missing them altogether... Yes... get something, but realize it will take 4-6 weeks to really kick-in!<P>About how you're interacting with you x-GF...<P><B>If you think you can "really" get (and want) her back... you're doing it the wrong (non-Harley) way.</B><P>You should be persuing her...<BR>calling her...<BR>letting her know you are interested...<P>You really shouldn't have sent the Christmas presents back...<BR>So call her... today... and tell her to keep the gifts you gave her...<BR>They a great reminders to the "good times".<P><B>If you want to move on</B>...<BR>Just shut down <B>all</B> commuications...<BR>No calls...<BR>No gift returns...<BR>No anything...<P>Look... you're a young guy...<BR>You didn't have a "marital" commitment...<BR>You make the decisions... <BR>1. Are you mature enough for relationship?...<BR>2. Is <B>she</B> mature enough...<P>I think... from what you are doing (here and with the reading materials)... <B>you</B> are... but the question of whether <B>she is</B>... may be harder to answer...<P>Hey... every now and then... you can start a new post...<BR>(people may wonder why my <B>first</B> post of 4+ months came up... it's OK though)<P>Good Luck... <P>Jim

<P>Jim,<P>I don't know.<P>The more I persued her, the more confused she got, and I think the more she lost respect for me. This went on for about five weeks with the OM in the wings. It drove me insane and really made me feel bad about myself. The only time she made a decision was when I told her I needed to get on with my life. She agreed to work on things, but we never got started since she was back with OM in two weeks. <P>If I do nothing, I am hoping that in time she will see that this new relationship is not the answer to her problems either.<P>Then again, out of sight, out of mind. If I have no contact, we eventually will get over each other right? <P>It's a tough choice.<P>The reason I grabbed your old post was because I was not sure how to get back in touch with you, since there were posts between us. Must be a better way?<P>

JJ,<P>By just replying to your last post... it floats to the top...<P>Persuing the one you love... doesn't mean to be "clingy" or "needy"... (these are unattractive weak qualities)<BR>You just have to present yourself as strong and confident... <BR>Let her know... you've made mistakes...<BR>Let her know... you've improved on yourself (in terms of relationship handling)... although this is tough when not being give the oppprtunity to interact with her....<P>But whenever possible...<BR>Show her all of the above...<P>If she still shuts you down....<BR>If you've lost too much lover for her...<BR>It is time to move on...<BR>Have that "no contact" in what we call <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A>.<P> <P>Jim

Jim,<P>In re-reading Plans A and B, I think the only thing that I messed up on was that our last contact was quite unpleasant. My fault, I was blind-sided, and felt very betrayed when she went back to him. I should have sat down and got my thoughts together before I spoke.<P>Maybe we need a sit down where I reinforce everything that I am doing and how I feel, then move to plan B. This way, her last contact with me is one that is pleasant and loving.<P>I just don't think I can go back to a point where I am reaching out to her, but she is indecisive. Actually, I think she is past that point and has decided to stay with OM.<P>Again, the fact that you have been able to hang on for so long with Plan A is a testiment to your love and patience.<P>Your wife is crazy, where else does she think she will find someone who is so devoted and commited to making things work?<P>Thanks again. <P>

JJ,<P>The concept of a "sit-down" session... while it sounds nice... rarely ever works out.<P>Emotions take over...<BR>Ultimatums tend to come out...<BR>The tensness of a "final" lay-it-out meeting...<BR>all overwhelm your original intent.<P>If you want to meet her again...<BR>(maybe for one last time...)<BR>make it a "<B>fun</B>" date... nothing about the OM... nothing about splitting up... something she can look back on... (maybe even build on)...<BR>but if there is no response back from her... don't show signs of dissapointment...<P>A few days later write her the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B</A> letter... see my <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20000110-1-011046.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B - 101</A> post for cross-links to some decent samples of this letter.<P>Giving her this letter is a big step...<BR>It usually means... <BR>1. She'll come back (and then you have to prove yourself... work here!)<BR>OR<BR>2. She won't come back... and then you must(for your sanity) move on. And of course your work doesn't stop... you prepare yourself for new relationship(s)!<P>Check out the posts... and links...<P>Hey... I play it by ear with my W... Who knows?<P>Good Luck my friend... <P>Jim

Jim,<P>After my five weeks of hell trying to convince her I knew what I wanted, that things could be different, and that I still loved her, I told her I was going on with my life, and that if she wantd to be together, to let me know. Otherwise, she would not hear from me again. Kind of a verbal Plan B letter.<P>I then wrote my version of a a plan B letter expressing my love, how I wished I could change things, etc. All very positive and loving. I told her I would give anything to have tried to work on things, but it seemed like that was not meant to be.<P>I wrote this letter before she told me she wanted to make things work, because truly believed that things were over; I was to mail it when she told me of her descision. If she had not be able to decide in 5 weeks, what would change?<P>After she said she wanted to get back, (two days later) I still gave her the letter and we both cried as she read it. <P>That was two weeks before she went back to OM saying things were not working. (but we never really got a chance to change anything)<P>I don't know Jim, maybe I should throw in the towel.<P>For right now I will do nothing, since it seems I change my mind on these issues almost daily.<P>I will continue to work on myself, and read everything I can get my hands on.<P>Thanks for all the support! <P>