Delphi,<P>Perhaps you recall my story from the past year. I remember you once posting to me about my situation, and I didn't take kindly to your responses. Now that we are divorcing, and my stbxh has resumed his relationship with the OW, Mia, I was wondering if from your personal experience if you foresee this relationship long term or doomed?<P>Your story is similar to how my stbx and Mia ended their relationship while he "worked" on our marriage. She didn't contact him, avoided him at all costs unless a specific project required her participation, and from what stbx says, even dated other men. He still went back to her, and she took him back. <P>I'm still trying to figure out what else I could have done to make him forget her, or the relationship they shared, but it must have been something special for her to have waited all this time for him to leave me.<P>Just looking for your opinion on this.

Just wanted to let you know that I am thinking about you.<P>IMHO I think some times they have to really be together to realize that the affair is fantasy. Then when they are together a lot over a period of time, that is when they seen that what they saw in the other person was really hog wash. They are so comsumed that they found their one true love that they will not believe anything else until they live through it.<P>My H moved out shortly after Discovery and he and his O/W have been on and off the last 6 months. She is finally moveing back to her family, several states away, but my H is still pineing for her and wants to go through our D.<P>Until he is over her, which I doubt will happen before our D is over I don't have a chance. I just keep plan Aing, and making sure in a settlement the kids and I are going to be financially ok.<P>I don't know if this helps with your situation or not.

TL,<P>I think one of the risks in affairs is that sometimes you do find someone who is better suited to you than your spouse. I think it would be pretty rare that we would all marry the person out of all the people out there that was absolutly the best suited to us. But we marry who we marry and we need to stay faithful to them. We can all look around us and see all the pain and destruction affairs cause. I didn't wait for him and maybe Mia didn't wait for your H. Maybe she just didn't find someone else. As to what you could have done, sometimes nothing can be done. But I think the best thing and what I would advise everyone is to confront as soon as you even suspect and if they lie, find out for sure. Because the longer it goes on the greater I think chances are that it will not go away. One problem I can see in your case is that he continued to see Mia even if they didn't communicate and so she was always a temptation. One other thing I feel very strongly about is no contact including even laying eyes on the OW. I would advise someone else who has just discovered an affair to insist on no contact even if it means changing jobs. As to the fantasy part, I think that all relationships start out with fantasy and love hormones and all that and that is when they need to be nipped in the bud. The real danger is when the relationship becomes real and no longer a fantasy and the lovers still continue to see each other. I think the fantasy buzz comes from the sneaking around which makes the feelings seem to be more intense. By this time Mia and your H are probably long past that stage of their relationship. TL, I hope you will not let your life be taken over by regrets. All we really have in our life is today and you need to make the most of that. You also need to accept that really it comes down to what your H decided to do. There is nothing you could or could not do about his own choices. Please don't blame yourself for them.<P>Del

Delphi is right on this one. Sometimes there isn't anything you can do. It is true that the longer it goes on the more likely it won't end. I ended up getting married to the other man and there was nothing anybody could have done to change my feelings towards him. I also agree that all relationships start out in a fantasy state as your courting each other but after awhile that state does go away and your very clear headed. Delphi is also right that sometimes the person you are married too is not the one for you. I think most people don't go out there looking for an affair and I also think that most really do regret the impact of it. Regardless, it's nothing that you did or didn't do.

If you never go out looking for an affair or if you are strong enough to resist one no matter how difficult things are, then you never run the risk of finding someone who is better suited to you. But once people do find someone who the absolutely know for sure is a better partner for them, it is very hard for them to give that person up. That is what withdrawl is all about in some cases. I think affairs that surive discovery aren't likely to end because discovery ends the fantasy. I think there is a difference between fantasy and just ignoring responsibilities. A life where you have chucked your responsibilites like some spouses seem to have done here isn't a fantasy, it's a new life where you've dumped your responsibilities on your spouse. And there's not much anyone can do about that if your spouse is the type of person to do that. You just have to do the best with your own life. But I do believe in total separation of the lovers no matter the cost. Every spouse who wants to save their marriage should insist on this.<P>Del

Delphi & BonnieSept.,<P>I appreciate your candidness with your replies as you were both the OW in your current relationships at one time, just like Mia. Although I can't continue to call her the OW now, can I? After all, we are almost at the end of our divorce, and he is very much still with her.<P>I am surprised given all the grief and stalking and hounding that I did to her that she still waited around to be with him. I thought I would have scared her away. At least that was my hopes and desires back then. But perhaps this is really "true love" and nothing I could have done would to her or to "punish" my stbx for his adultery would have prevented him from continuing to pursue this relationship.<P>I somehow doubt that during the time they were separated that he actually "worked" our marriage. He told me over and over that "the feelings just aren't there". I kept telling him they would come back. But they didn't. My heart continued to pray, but my mind just laughed. Guess in the end, I was the fool, blinded by a 17 year history with this man.

TL,<P>You were always honest in your previous posts. Delphi, at one time, warned you that you were pushing your STBX into Mia's arms by your actions. I know exactly where you were coming from, because I think most of the betrayed people here understand and have experienced the fury (unless they are saints). You've been here a long time. You know that this site and Harley's books guide people in dealing with the aftermath of an affair. <BR>You ask in this post what you could have done to make your STBX forget his relationship with Mia. Be honest again, TL, I think you know that some of the things that you did badly damaged any chance of him even having a desire to forget her. Instead of scaring Mia away, you scared him away from you.<BR>My husbands "fling" opened my eyes to a lot of things. I realized that many of us women, after we've been married for a while, tend to somehow forget that the men we married are actually people. We go about our merry way, doing exactly what we want to do, treating our husbands pretty much like our kids---"do what I say, or you won't like the consequences". We forget that maybe these men have desires and needs that are not the same as ours. And somehow, we don't realize that if we don't fulfill their needs, that they will turn away from us. Until it's too late. Until someone else treats them the way we should have been treating them all along over the years. <BR>Your STBX's relationship with Mia will last as long as she fulfills his needs, and he does the same for her. As Delphi said, they should be well beyond the point of fantasy. You speak of "punishing" him. You have to let go of the hurt, because it will not change the past. The only one being punished is yourself.<BR>I know that you have learned a lot of things over the past year, TL. Everyone makes mistakes, what makes a difference is learning from them, and not making the same ones again. You deserve to be happy. <BR>My wish for you is a peaceful heart.<BR>Merlyn

Merlyn, what a beautiful post. TL, please listen to what she has to say. Yes I am now with the man I love. But I have paid and will always pay a heavy price for that happiness. Yes I do think that some of the things you did pushed your H towards Mia. But TL, please remember! No one can push someone off a cliff without a fight! No matter how hard you pushed, your H had to have the willingness to do what he did! And I consider this a weakness. Yes a weakness, even in me. I hope it is a weakness I have corrected. TL, no matter what you did or didn't do, it is your H who made the choice to have an affair. And that was wrong. It doesn't matter how much he loves Mia or she loves him. It was still wrong. It doesn't matter how much my man and I love each other. What we did was wrong. Just like premarital sex or any other sin. It was wrong. TL, you did not make him do it. Please please do not blame yourself for his actions. You are not at fault. Yes you are responsible for whatever marriage problems you had, in part. But you are not to blame for his affair. <P>Del

Ditto...great post, Merlyn.<P>You're right on the money. We meet someone, date, put our best foot forward, and then after we marry, we treat that person like a piece of furniture. Everything else seems to come first -- kids, hobbies, house, work.<P>And then we get a wake-up call.<P>Some of us are lucky...we get that wake-up call in time. Some are not so lucky.<P>TL, I think you wanted instant results from your H when he was home. And you couldn't wait. Nothing wrong with that; we each have different levels of patience.<P>It's time to let your H go, stop obsessing about him and Mia, and use what you've learned to live the rest of your life.

Ladies,<P>Great insight in the post's above. I know I was guilty of treating my h like my kid. I also know that we were at a "mexican standoff" as far as meeting each others needs. I was waiting for him to meet my needs and then I would meet his needs. He was doing the same. The healthy thing to do would be to compromise. <P>Oh there is so much to learn in the breakdown of an 18 year marriage. I tried to salvage it but his refusal to give up the OW made it impossible. I have moved on and am happy. Will I ever trust enough to ever remarry? Hard to say. He is still seeing her and it has been two years. I don't even imagine us together anymore. I have been dating one person for awhile now. He is very supportive and understanding. Moving on and filing for divorce was the best move I made. I gained my self respect when I took control. Thanks for the great insight! I figure anything I learn about relationships can only help me in the future. <P>GP

My Mom used to say that you can't look at a stove and say give me some heat and I'll give you some wood. You've got to give the stove some wood first. But alot of people spend their lives waiting for heat before they'll invest their wood. Not only with their marriages but with all parts of their lives. But it is very risky with marriages, I think. With my XH, I gave alot of wood for a long time and never got any heat back. So it was time to leave. There was cheating too. Funny that I should then have become an OW. I think my self esteem was so destroyed that I just was craving any attention at all. I think it is a total freak accident that the man I had the affair with and myself ended up being very well suited for each other. But I am taking no chances. We both went through alot of counseling and we are now doing premarriage counseling. I guess that's as close to insurance as I can get and I am willing to risk again.<P>Del

Merlyn-<P>I must comment on your post. Like others, you have commented on a situation that rocks like an earthquake, at the very heart of what we all had hoped would be a stable and happy relationship.<P>You are so correct when you talk about meeting needs and yes, one must never feel or believe that unmet needs justify an affair...the betrayer has to accept total responsibliity for their actions. They chose the behavior...their spouse did not cause them to behave in that way...<P>You husband is a lucky man. You have a perspective that is unusual for being the betrayed. The point you made about literally pushing or driving a spouse to the OM or OW if you create a certain kind of enviromment in your relision is a powerful realization even though you are the one that has been hurt.<P>I'm not sure my ex-w ever really saw the impact of what you have mentioned and the possbility of "Driving" a spouse to the other person. You are fortunate to have such great wisdome. I can see your point much more clearly now when I relect back on the the obvious lack of any kind of attempt at any try or attempt to adopt a Plan A ...and combined with her immediate decision to move to immediately to file for divorce after discovery made it a lose-lose situation that never provided the kind of reflection, soul searching and working your way back thinking or studying.<P>Again, your husband is a very very lucky man.<P>mrrlk<P>

Limerick, <P>I too was married for 17 years (spent anniversary #18 going through a divorce) It is true that we all (both men & women) become complacent within our relationships and then stop nurturing them. I KNOW I did this. And I obviously carried it to such an extreme that my stbx found what I didn't give him in Mia.<P>Hindsight is truely wonderful, isn't it?

Tired Lady,<P>I have read much of your story and it is very similiar to mine. I almost think the OW that our h hooked up with could be the same person. The one thing that I had and I don't think this effected your relationship was I lost both my parents within the last 9 years and I think that my h's inability to support me led him searching for something else. I was truly depressed. It is a chemical imbalance. I have been on meds since discovery and I feel like a new person. I have worked hard at improving my mind and body. I have been in counseling for 2 years both individual and group. I have been working with a trainer and working out for 3 months now. I just changed my hair color last week and boy what a boost to my ego that was. I ordered the car of my dreams this week and I leave for Europe June 28. I feel so liberated and happy. My h held me back in so many ways. Now it is my life and my choices and I feel unbelievably healthy. I have never had so much energy or get up and go. Yes my marriage feel apart but maybe just maybe it is all for the best. I now thank my h's OW (Hanya) thats why it reminds me of Mia it rhymes. She gets all the lemons now. <P>GP

Good for you Limerick!<P>I wish I could say that I've got the "get up and go" that you describe. I'm still at the "pity me" stage. Plus and added stress to me is that the kids LOVE being with their dad and Mia and that irks me more than him having the affair!<P>I've been to counseling too. I'm now on meds but I don't see a benefit. This is my 3rd different one. I see the counselor once a week, sometimes twice when I think I need extra moral support. I hope I get to where you seem to be. You sound wonderful and happy. <P>It is truely awful knowing that my behavior killed any hopes of my marriage working. I still believe that by the time discovery was made that it was too late to change or fix anything. Just my opinion.

Tired Lady, you may be right that by the time of your discovery it was already too late. I think the longer the affair goes on the harder it is to recover. In regards to your kids. I will try and give you some insight on that because I have kids that visit with their father and his girlfriend and I also have 2 step kids. My step kids love to stay at our home with their father and myself. I care deeply for my step kids but that is the extent of it. They have a mother and they love their mother very much. I couldn't and would not want to try and take her place. As much as they like me, they LOVE their mother and they spend a lot of time talking about her when they are at our house. No woman can take the place of a loving and caring mother, which you are. My children have very little contact with their father. Not their choice, his and his girlfriends. Although they live a couple of miles away my ex got together with a woman that doesn't want him to have contact with his kids. As a result, he is a terrible, dead-beat father. But, my kids are lucky that they have a step dad that cares deeply for them and they are very involved with my ex's family. Although they have excepted their father for being a weak man and deciding not to be involved in their life, they still love him deeply. So you see, even a parent that isn't much of one is still number one in their children's hearts. Mia can't change the love that your children have for you even if it feels like it somedays. You get the brunt of their frustrations because they know you love them enough to except them regardless of their short-comings.

No matter how loving she is, a step mother will never take the place of a mother in childrens hearts. TL, you will always be their mother, you and nobody else.<P>Del

mrrlk:<BR>I never tried a Plan A. Just tried to treat my husband more like I did when we first met. D-day was June 99. Still have some very bad days, but I make the attempt not to take it out on him, for the simple reason that I love him and don't want him to be unhappy. I can totally relate to TL---there were many times that I just wanted to retaliate, for the hurt, for the betrayal. Had some serious thoughts of revenge, and boy, was it HARD to resist. But the ultimate goal here is supposed to be making things better, not worse. And, as we all know so well, there are always consequences to what we do. My husband also thinks he's lucky. He is. I don't aim well, but I do know how to shoot a shotgun. (semi-kidding)<P>Delphi:<BR>You are correct. TL cannot be blamed for her STBX actually going ahead and having an affair. That was the direct result of a weakness in his character, the selfishness that everyone has within themselves. His error was in acting upon that selfishness, at TL's expense. <P>TL:<BR>Hindsight s*cks.<BR>I really don't belong on this divorce board. However, the thought occurs that if I had followed my first and furious instinct, I could be in your shoes right now. And my heart hurts for you.<P>Take care, people.<P>Merlyn