Sad to say, I have excellent skills on sewing machines and sergers... After all, I did win consecutive Home Economics awards in Jr. High. Imagine receiving THAT award at the end of the year assembly...

K & TS...<BR>I've gotten all the banner ads that both of you have mentioned, and I cannot ever recall visiting a feminist site, or a (heaven forbid!!!) cooking site. I will plead guilty to gardening sites tho...<P>kathi<P>

K,<BR>SAD?! I think not!! Darnit...well, I suppose I'll have to wait for "little K" to grow up so my future daughter can take him off your hands. <P>I always wanted a serger. And one of those cool computerized machines that do embroidery too. Ah well. One of these days when I have a real job again...<P>Kam,<BR>Another gardener, huh? Cool! What part of the country do you live in?

Student,<P>I realize you write here of an overseas adoption, but you have mentioned before, about adopting the unwanted girls from China. I have friends who have adopted children from China, daughters - I discussed adopting a daughter from there with my ex-husband about a year before our problems. I feel very strongly about this issue, I can't stand by silently while the myth of unwanted Chinese girls is perpetuated. You have been caught up in typical American "we know it all" man-bashing hype, without researching the circumstances of the adoptions. There is a fundamental human rights issue there, not one of downtrodden women. You cannot judge their culture by the woman-as-victim standards of the United States. <P>China is a country in personal crisis because of their one child per family law. There are forced abortions, and if you are lucky enough to be in a rural area where you aren't found out, or in a district with less stringent mandatory pregnancy tests, if nobody "tells" on you, you may be lucky enough to have more than one child. If you manage to give birth, you must find a family to pay to raise your extra children, so you are not taxed out of existence, put on mandatory birth control, and even more closely watched for pregnancy.<P>China is a society where there is no social security, no pension plan, it is the son's obligation to take care of his parents in their old age. What a horrible choice to have to make, if you don't abort her (or a second child), you must hide your pregnancy, and give her up, or sacrifice yourself in your old age. <P>The girls that are put up for adoption, are not unwanted. I can't imagine a more noble act these people made, than to allow their flesh and blood an opportunity to live. Here in America, an unwanted pregnancy is viewed as "fixable" and a child's life is destroyed, no matter what the sex. I don't think that kind of equality is desirable to wish on any country.<P><BR>

Honey.west,<P>scuze me? I am not part of the "man-bashing" hype in America. I know exactly why there are more girls available for adoption in China than there are boys, and I don't exactly give a cr*p. I am quite aware of their one child policy. The fact that it is the girls they give up for adoption and not boys means this...They still live in a country where being a MAN is more important than being a WOMAN. So, yes, I'm damn happy to take their girls, and raise them in a country they MIGHT have a chance in being treated like a worthwhile human being. <P>Down-trodden women ARE A HUMAN RIGHTS PROBLEM. GIVING AWAY YOUR DAUGHTERS IS A HUMAN RIGHTS PROBLEM. I guess you don't see that. <P>I WILL judge their culture. I judge it backwards and ignorant if they can't find a way to encourage their boys AND girls to be self-sufficient. Until they figure that out, I hope many,many more Americans go over there and adopt the daughters they don't want.<P>China is not the only country where girls are more available for adoption or are routinely aborted (like they are in India). Get a clue. Females are considered worthless by many cultures compared to males, especially in poverty stricken areas. <P>One last time...It is NOT man-bashing to point out how females are oppressed in the world. Both mothers and fathers in these countries are raised to treat their daughters as less than sons. These women grow up to do the same to their own daughters, and so it goes. One more female brought over here, is one less woman over there to propagate their ignorance. <P>The reason why they started the one child policy is due to periods of mass starvation. They simply had too many people. I happen to believe that our planet is not capable of supporting an infinite number of humans. Either we find ways to control our population, or it will be taken care of "for us" through disease and starvation. I had my tubes tied for a reason. I was perfectly capable of bearing my own child, but there are plenty of others that need homes more than *I* need to procreate. So, I don't really have a problem with their one child policy. As a matter of fact, I think it is a whole lot more responsible than people in this country who have a zillion kids they can't support. Are you aware that approximately one American child consumes about 6-8 times the natural resources that one African child does?<P>Anyway, even if the Chinese were able to have more children it would not change a thing. Boys will still be considered more important than girls, no matter how many they are allowed to have. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 08, 2000).]

The Student,<P>I am not sure why you call yourself this but, it could not be because you are a student since you already know everything. No one has a right to judge anyone else. NO ONE.<BR>Why do you ask others for comments on your post? It seems to me that unless the post agree with want you think, you cut them down.<P>Unless we have walked in someone elses shoes<BR>how can we know what they think or feel? If you have lived in China and experienced what these families have, then you may understand<BR>them and their motives. <P>I know why my H is not home right now. It is because I was the head of the household and I thought I was right about everything. I am very thankful to God for teaching me different. Having ones husband as head of household is not about being a servant,it is about peace, unconditional love, and having order.Men and women are created equal but different. All cannot accept this and that is alright.I didn't accept it and it cost me my marriage. It would seem by the post here it cost a lot of others their marriages also. I have peace now because I know that my marriage will be restored and have more love than before.We cannot blame the other spouse for everything. It is not about finding a "good woman or good man" out there.It is about looking at ourselves first.No one is beyond needing to work on their behavior.It doesn't matter if A was involved or not.Both spouses make mistakes. Who are we to decide what mistake was the worst? I hope you find some peace.You will never find anyone that is "good" enough. None of us are "good" enough.We all have some kind of hangups.<BR>gentle <p>[This message has been edited by gentle (edited December 08, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Down-trodden women ARE A HUMAN RIGHTS PROBLEM. GIVING AWAY YOUR DAUGHTERS IS A HUMAN RIGHTS PROBLEM. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>AMEN!!!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I WILL judge their culture. I judge it backwards and ignorant if they can't find a way to encourage their boys AND girls to be self-sufficient. Until they figure that out, I hope many,many more Americans go over there and adopt the daughters they don't want.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I've occasionally thought it would be great if they adopted ALL their girls out...then we would see how valuable they would have to decide women are say, 30 years from now, with no one to have any new babies at all....<P>Kathi<P>Oh, and re: gardening...I live in Texas. Summers here are tough on the garden!!!<P>

Student,<P>Raising a daughter to believe a father is not important in her life is the ultimate manbashing. <P>To see you agree that a totalitarian regime's answer to overpopulation is OK, is scary, you are so naively uninformed, and take basic liberties for granted, that you can be so blindly one-faceted to see this as an oppressed woman issue. You are grossly undereducated about China's history, its structure, and its people's struggles.<P>You bash men in general, but personally attack any woman on this board whom you believe might be happy with her estrogen level, and who can compete as well as you, if not better, in this "man's world." You are as bad an offender, attacking and putting down women as any stereotypical chauvinist I have ever met.<P>You see Student, I have a good career, I am good at what I do, so can pretty much do my own hours, I work in a male-dominated environment, I have a home, I do home repairs, I do my own lawn, I change the oil on my car, I enjoy Home Depot, as well as Victoria's Secret. I am attractive, well educated, well read, and well versed on national and international affairs, and oh yeah, I am raising two children on my own. <P>It is hard Student. I am doing it, and there isn't one single parent on this board, man or woman who will say it is easy, or that it is preferrable to having a two parent home, even when the oppressed mother does most of the child rearing. But I guess you know better.<P>So you want to convince yourself that men just aren't worth it, go ahead. I would hope that you aren't allowed to doom an innocent child to a life without a father just so you can prove to everybody, look how great I am, I can be a great mother too, I don't need no stinkin man.<P>Maybe someday you will be comfortable with who you are, that you won't have to put others down to bolster your self image. I think I've finally learned my lesson to stay away from all of your posts, because you don't want differing opinions, you want validation from men.<P>

Honey west,<P>I believe I will join you in not going to read Student's post. I am sure it will not bother her since she needs no one unless they praise her. My decision is for me it is not to teach her anything because I don't believe it matters to her. I am not going to visit because I have been there and done all the man bashing and tried and proved that I could do what men do just as well if not better than them. All I got was being left alone and very broken. I don't want praise. <BR>I am proud to be a woman and work hard to stay a woman. I have proably done more "man's jobs" than most women. The difference is that I do not take pride in that any longer. I take pride in being what God created me to be. Since I know how to do so many things repairing cars and home repairs, I could fall back into Satan's trap <BR>of separating men and women.Satan is the only winner when this happens or there would be no need for this forum in the first place.<BR>I am now ashame of my war with men and trying to prove something to the world. If we were all to be the same(not to be confused with equal) then we would all be the same sex and able to reproduce by ourseleves.<P>When I first read Students post I was quick to believe I saw wisdom. I find that when I act quickly I make mistakes. Some wisdom is only shallow knowledge. <P>I would be afraid to put Amen on anything that judges others harshly. I will stay away from these type of threads because I could fall right back into all of this bad resentful attitude about men. Praise God I now have peace. I thought this thread was suppose to be about our opinions about who is to be head of household. <P>I will pray for the lost here. <BR>gentle <p>[This message has been edited by gentle (edited December 09, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by honey.west:<BR><B>Student,<P>So you want to convince yourself that men just aren't worth it, go ahead. I would hope that you aren't allowed to doom an innocent child to a life without a father just so you can prove to everybody, look how great I am, I can be a great mother too, I don't need no stinkin man.<P><BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Sad but true, We Americans think we should rescue everyone. Pride is killing this country and 30 years from now maybe we will realize our own distructive behavior. No this is not my wish or sentence it is the truth. <BR>gentle<p>[This message has been edited by gentle (edited December 09, 2000).]

to gentle and honey.west,<P>The name of the thread was "for all who like a good debate"... I did not slam a single person, male or female, for believing that a man should be "head of the household".<P>What do I get? I get one woman (honey.west) who thinks she knows more than I do about China and makes a point of telling me so. That's fine. Again, the title of the thread is "for all who like a good debate". Then she gets pissed when I not only make it clear how much I do know about China, but that I've actually taken the time to form my own opinion about it, which is different than hers. <P>The other woman (gentle) calls me "unwise" for not holding her belief about a man's or woman's position in the family. Fine. I too agree that my marriage ended because I did not let my H be the "head of the household" and said so in the beginning. However, unlike you, I would consider it selling my soul to do so and consider it physically repulsive. I would rather my marriage end than live under those conditions. As this thread attests to, there are other men out there who don't happen to believe that they have to be the "head of the household" in order to feel like a man. Even better. <P>I see that gentle only thinks I'm "wise" when I agree with her. Hmmm. <P>There is a psychological term called "projection". You two are just as judgemental and rigid in your thinking as you accuse me of being. You sit there and call me a man-basher, unwise, (anything else ladies?) because I'm not validating YOUR opinion. Go right ahead. Believe me, I've heard much, much worse. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 09, 2000).]

I'm just curious???<BR>Isn't the whole point of a debate, point, counterpoint, with out finger shaking and name calling???????<P>I don't understand how one could get offended knowing the ROE(rules of engagement) of a thread titled: <B>For All Who Like A Good Debate</B><P>That being said...The give and take of this thread was going IMO pretty well, ie: point, counterpoint, then as usual my dear friend TheStudent gets taken to task and ultimately flamed for her beliefs. I can't agree with all of her beliefs, but I'm not going to get righteously indignant about it...after all they are <B>HER</B> beliefs. They are hers not mine!!! I'd like to think that I'm going to be allowed my own without anyone telling me I'm wrong in a viscious mannor....If you want to sway my opinion then show me with examples that do not try to insult my intelligence!!<P>Once again we are in a quandry...no one will allow TS her values and belifes...<P>I fear that she will get tired of everyones and stop comming here...<BR>s*** <P>Well, goddammit she is a <B>HUGE</B> part of my recovery!! And I need her here!!...Her experience has on many times caused me to look at parts of me I didn't really want to and my toes hurt! But do I get all self-righteous...Not hardly!!...I am honest enough to look at my own shortcommings and maybe if I have the guts to try something different or at least think on it...<P>Yes I am a bit pissed about the crap that has been thrown her way...And I know TS, you can handle yourself just fine ...but I had to say my peace on this...<P>Hey, TS in case no one has told you they loved you today....I do.<P>Bill<BR>(oh...if anyone is offended by my profanity TFB..I'm a bit pissed!)<P>[This message has been edited by WilliamJ (edited December 09, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by WilliamJ (edited December 09, 2000).]

Awww man! Can't we all just hold hands and get along?<P>I was going to come back and re-edit the post I just made to soften things up a bit. Look. I know I am very blunt. Some people can see through that part of me, others are put off. Not everyone is going to like me, and I'm ok with that. <P>The biggest reason I'm not waiting for a father for my children is because I think that divorce is worse on children than having a single, stabile, loving mother or father who has the emotional and financial resources to care for that child. Above all else, I believe children need stability and love, and love can come from many sources. I take that 75% divorce statistic for multiple marriages very, very seriously. <P>The ideal is to have two loving parents. This website attests to the fact that that doesn't happen all of the time. Being a man or a woman has nothing to do with who cooks dinner, who makes more money, who mows the lawn, or who does the laundry. For some reason, when I say that, then people think I'm saying "I don't need no stinkin man". I needed my ex. Maybe you, Honey.west, didn't read the part that said "he was my dream man in so many ways". He was my dream man because I actually believed he loved me for me, not because he apparently needed subservience in order to feel like a man. That is not my definition of a man. A real man doesn't need an employee or a servant, as Country Guy suggested. <P>I'm kind of laughing a little bit right now. Yesterday I wore a leather skirt, a tight sweater, and some knee high boots to school and was feeling pretty proud of being a woman. I even joked around with one of my friends that I felt like grabbing the first cute guy I saw walking across campus, throwing him down on the grass, and having my way with him Actually, those are the "boots" talkin'. I was thinking that after I was done throwing him down on the grass and having MY way, he could pick me up, throw me over his shoulder, take me back to his "cave" and have his way with me...Ah well, nice thought anyway.

Well,<P>As one who has been personally slammed by TS for a rather tame post (little boys get the best toys), I can understand a little of the sentiment in this thread of late. It does seem that it's usually her way or a face shot.<P>I'm very sorry that her personal experience with the male population has been essentially negative (just my impression from her posts, & my asbestos underwear is on), but that doesen't mean that the rest of us (men) are worthless jerks (just how I usually feel after reading one of her posts). <P><P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain and makes the sun come out again

Student,<P>You don't want a debate...you want a war.<BR>In a debate one points out when a good point<BR>is made. One also admits when they were wrong. I admitted I was wrong about you having wisdom(wisdom has nothing to do with education). I also admitted I was wrong about the way I have treated men in the past.<BR>I have messed up when it comes to being a wife. I know from having lived it.Have you lived the situation in China?One thing wisdom has taught me is that unless I have walked that walk, I don't know what I am talking about. I don't know but, are you ever wrong?I take pride in all the times I have been wrong because I have learned from my wrongs. <BR>In a war both side argue that their way is the right way. In war no ones admits they are wrong. I hope you enjoy your war with the world.I for one will not fight with you. <BR>Since this is not a debate but a war, I will <BR>not be posting here again. I was trying to tell what my mistakes have taught me. So don't worry William I will leave The Student to you.<BR>I sold my soul when I fell for the big war of the sexes lie.A man being HH has nothing to do with being subservient to a man.<BR>gentle <p>[This message has been edited by gentle (edited December 09, 2000).]

EGADS Student!! A leather skirt, tight sweater and Go-Go boots!!! What a word picture! <P>I just cleaned my cave today

gentle,<P>have YOU lived in China? Over the years, I have worked with many people who were born and raised there. A sizable portion of the students I work with now come from China. One of my best friends lived there for many years. My advisor adopted a little girl from China. I just don't happen to agree with your point of view about China or about relationships. Big deal. <P>I don't have to judge their culture. They are doing themselves in. All I'm doing is reaping the "benefits" of their governmental policies. Their best and brightest pursue education, and if they can manage it, a life outside of China. Their daughters are being shipped off. The remaining sons are called "little emperors". It is only a matter of time before they see the error of their ways. They will then either change their one-child policy or perhaps women will achieve a higher status as their numbers steadily decrease.<P>As far as your relationships go, like I said before, whatever works for you. If making your H the head of the household works for you, then WONDERFUL. I never said any differently. I only said I couldn't do it myself. I even said that it appeared that most relationships who hold this view are "working". So, in my own way, I have validated your opinion. Problem is, I would rather be alone than live with that arrangement. What else do you want? OH. You want me to AGREE with you. Sorry, can't do that.<P>I don't measure wisdom by how many people agree with me. I measure wisdom by how much I know myself. <P>Cooker, <BR>I called you on your comment on another thread. You said "boys get the best toys". This was in response to Jamie-Lee, who already had a girl. <P>Here's a list of other responses I've heard towards women who (finally) had a boy after having girls:<P>1) Oh good. Now you'll have someone to carry on the family name.<P>2) Isn't it a shame you didn't have him first?<P>3) It's good you didn't have another girl. Boys are easier.<P>Debates are not a mutual admiration society. Did you watch the presidential debates? They weren't exactly patting each other on the back going "good point Mr. Bush", "oh no, Mr. Vice President, I was wrong. You're point is better!" <P>If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen! You said you are, but not without throwing in a few personal blows beforehand. I suppose that getting personal is the only remaining alternative when you have nothing else to say. <P>Hi Bill,<BR>So, you cleaned your cave today,huh? I guess I'll have to give you directions to GaTech now and arrange to have the grass mowed.<P><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 09, 2000).]

OK, <P>Was there something argumentative or sexist in my comment about toys for little boys being fun?<P><B>"If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen! You said you are, but not without throwing in a few personal blows beforehand. I suppose that getting personal is the only remaining alternative when you have nothing else to say."</B><P>Could we have that one again, only in english this time?<P><P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain and makes the sun come out again

cooker,<P>sweetheart! I have nothing against toys for little boys. I love boy toys myself. Those were MY favorite, and I'm a girl. What I'm objecting to, I suppose, is the notion of "boy toys" and "girl toys". To me, there is no such thing. Toys are whatever that girl or boy wants to play with. If I had a son, and he wanted to play with dolls and an EZ-Bake oven, I wouldn't discourage him. My nephew had a little kitchen set, so that he could "cook" along with Grandpa.<P>At X-mas time, I was the one designated to put all of my nephew's toys together because I liked it so much. <P>When you said the comment about "boy toys", I was thinking about all of the other things that I've heard people say in response to someone having a boy. All I could think about at the time people said those things was that they felt like having a boy was better than having a girl and it made me sick. Since the topic of discussion has drifted over to China (a country that apparently believes boys are better), it was relevent to discuss. <P>

Okay, can we spell debate.... <P>Slowly...<P>D-E-B-A-T-E<P>And the subject was...<P>Slowly...<P>Should a man be the head of the household?<P><BR>--- Is it safe to talk without name calling? ---<P>Makes me happy that I work with majority men. <P>Now for my opinion, I happen to like the way Bill put it. Both people giving 100%/100%. <BR>I think that a man and woman should walk side by side.<P>TS, sounded like a head turning outfit. I can't wait to lose this weight so I can get back into my clothes. Can you believe my little guy is three weeks old already?<P>------------------<BR><B>Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change...Courage to change the things I can...And the wisdom to know the difference.</B><P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com