For all who like a good debate... - Marriage Builders® Forums

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I decided I needed to move this topic to another thread...I have a question to both men and women...Who believes that the man should be the head of the household? I already know what the biblical take on this is. Besides religious reasons, I'd like to discuss exactly why you think it is a good/bad idea or perhaps why it is a non-issue.Me and another friend of mine (another female PhD candidate) believe that our inability to let the man feel like the "head of the household" or feel "in charge" is one of the main reasons we are single. She has never been married. My ex stated specifically a few months before the divorce that he felt like the man needed to "call the shots" because all of his friend's marriages were like that and they were working.Personally, I feel physically repulsed by the idea and both me and my friend will likely stay single if this is what is expected of us. She and I discussed the topic of POJA, but she felt like the "no" vote would always have more power in that respect. In her experience, her step-dad always held the no-vote.

TS,Don't have the energy or brain power right now for a debate but I'll be glad to join in later.Wanted to say "HI" and tell you my bachlorette pad a.k.a. home I have gutted and rebuilt inside from the ground up has really come together! My "behind dragging" is beginning to feel normal. Hanging kitchen cupboards Saturday, you got time to help? Also have newly discovered plumbing problems from the house to the street. The electrical wiring is coming along and the new blown in insulation has made a difference and on and on and on, LOL! Good luck on the debate, I'll scoot outa here!Ragamuffin

Well.....in my first marriage I was the head of the house hold 100%. I think my ex resented it somewhat and saw it as a control issue (my liking and wanting to be in control). How I saw it was different. I saw it as a position that had to be held by somebody and because he would not/could not step up to plate I was it. It frustrated and when I'd complained about it he'd offer. Funny though, when it came down to handing over some of the responsibility I'd choke and not do it. Why? I didn't trust him enough to think that he could handle it. Turns out much later he's in the same situation with his girlfriend. She wears the pants in their relationship and often complains that he can't and doesn't take care of himself or her. Anyhow, in my first marriage I totally resented him for making me be it all. I desided when he needed hair cuts, made his appointments etc....decided what homes to live in, how to decorate them, I paid all of the bills etc.. I felt like a mother of 3 with no spouse. In my second marriage I'd say he's more the head of the house hold. My gosh for the first time in 20 something years somebody else balanced the check book and I was perfectly happy to hand the job over. I realized that it wasn't that I wanted control but instead I wanted to share it. Decisions that are large are made by both of us discussing it first. We we both don't agree on a big issue it doesn't happen. I think the marriages that do the best are the marriages that are closer to 50/50. Sometimes I'm too emotional about a certain situation to make the decision. I'm comfortable with him making it. Sometimes he's torn between two issues and I'm the tie breaker. Marriage is NOT about who is head of the house hold, it's about team work.

Not me. I think the "head of the hh" is & should be "heads". Some things are more my area, and some his, but major decisions, etc are all joint. Frankly, I cannot see marrying anyone who held that belief...BTW...There is a lot of stuff in the bible which I do not believe to be divinely mandated, but influenced by the folks who recorded it.

Hi, me again [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

. This time, though, I wholeheartedly agree with TS. I don't need to be the head of the household to be a "man".In fact, in my marriage my W has always been in charge of most of our social activities and many other things. I did the bills, the taxes, the home and car maintenance and improvement, etc. We participated equally in raising the kids (well, until she got the high stress job and started the A, but I digress).In my mind that was perfectly fine. However, recently (after the speech), she started saying stuff about needing somebody to be the head of the household, to "run interference" for our family, etc. I couldn't understand that, since every time I tried to take charge, she called me "controlling".Later, I figured out that this was all due to her involvement with the OM, who apparently was a take-charge kind of guy (duh), so my W figured that's the way things should be.So now I'm in a quandry: if I take charge, I'm controlling. If not, I'm weak. Go figure!Anyway, to answer your question, I don't need (or want) to be the head of the household. I want to be equals, with differences of opinion handled via POJA rather than calling each other controlling" or "wimpy".AGG

I don't see a need for a "head" of the household. My STBX and I pretty much divided up duties and responsibilities between us and made virtually all our household decisions jointly. I think a healthy domestic relationship is a partnership. To be sure some tasks will end up being the primary responsibiltiy of one partner (mine tended to be yard work & mechanical stuff), but either if us were capable of running the household single handedly (which I have a true appreciation of now [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

).Of course, there are probably some successful relationships where one or the other partner is more dominating. I just wouldn't want to be a part of one of those.Take care...------------------ nickit's only time that heals the pain and makes the sun come out again

Well TS...another good question...Me personaly...I see it as 100%/100% job... Each partner bringing an ideal to the table for negotiation...I see woman as having an inate ability for nurtureing...men haveing the inate ability to work...For me most decisions can be made in 10 seconds flat...If my future W can make a reasonable decision, then I trust it...If I make a reasonable decision...then it too should be trusted...I whole heartedly agree with the POJA...On a sidenote...The standard wedding vow usualy has in it...submit and obey...I looked at this as being for both people to be influenced by...My Grandparents celebrated 53 years before my GF died...they followed a simple unstated rule...He ruled the roost...She ruled the roosterBill

Hi folks,Lots of interesting answers. The general consensus seems to be whatever both people agree upon. Me and my ex took turns doing just about everything. I'd balance the checkbook every other month. We went grocery shopping and every other kind of shopping together. He enjoyed mowing the lawn, while I enjoyed weeding (and in FL, there is LOTS of lawn mowing and weeding) so outdoor stuff was shared. I'm an M.E. so mechanical stuff is also my forte, but I can bake up a mean batch of chocolate chip cookies or even a souffle when I put my mind to it. I taught my ex how to sew. He made himself tank tops for our bike riding adventures. Darn it. He was my dream man in lots of ways. He hid that "gotta be in charge" stuff pretty well for a long time. I think he took a look at what his friend's had going on at home and decided he wanted a change. If he didn't like the way I did something, his first urge was to try and take it away from me, rather than discuss it. Or if he did discuss it, it came down to his way or no-way. We had that argument a couple of times about balancing the checkbook. A couple of times I made mistakes and he wanted to take it over and got pissed that I wouldn't let him take it over. I said "NO" because I wouldn't be able to learn any other way. About the school thing (which was the catalyst for our divorce, among other things)... He always told me he'd be happy emptying out ash-trays for a living. I honestly didn't care what he did for a living either (as long as it was legal [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

). So, I didn't think it would be any problem that I was the more ambitious of the two, career-wise. Yet another area where I don't think he knew himself well. He SAID his job wasn't all that important, but when it came down to moving, he realized just how important it was. Of course, that was well after he had already promised to move for my education someday, etc....For me it comes down to "Lead, Follow, or get out of the way"

I kind of like Bill's tagline:"He ruled the roost...She ruled the rooster"Just as in any partnership there are going to be skills and qualities that each individual excels at and brings to the table. Some of those follow gender lines, some don't.For most situations, I really don't believe there needs to be any one "boss". But with children, I do believe there needs to be a "Head". Usually the spouse that has final say with children issues is really more a figure head than an absolute dictator. I look to my parents on this one - so often when I wanted something "big" I always had to "go ask my father". What took a long time to figure out was that between the time he gave me his answer, there was much debating going on behind the scenes between he and my mother.What this did do was prevent me as a child, from "playing" one parent off the other. If I knew they both had equal power to decide, I could have manipulated it to my benefit.As for my wife and me, most decisions came down to who knew more about the topic at hand. Finances were often decided by me, house issues were often decided by her.Mike

Isn't one of the best reasons to be in a marriage, or even a partnership, is that two heads are better than one?Personally, I think we all tend to have strong and weak points. Knowing where they are and when our spouse is better equiped to handle something is a huge benefit. That doesn't mean that one or the other gets "stuck" with any particular job.Myself, I don't want an employee or a servant. I want someone that I can lean on when needed and have confidence they will do what's best for us in any decision they make.I don't worry about the results of the decision as long as it was made with our well being in mind.Want to hear something funny? In my first marriage, anytime I was in doubt of a decision I was faced with I asked myself one simple question. What would my W do if she were making the decision? Always seemed to help me make the right choice...

I beleive in traditional roles. I think the man should be the head of the household. My hubby and I made an agreement before we got married that he would be the head of the household and he made all of the final decisions. That is fine with me, that is the way I want it. I keep the house up and he does the veichles and yard. It has worked out well. It makes me feel protected.I look at it this way. He is the head and I am the neck. Try turning your head without the help of your neck.Hey, Country Guy. Good to see ya. Glad you are doing well.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>My hubby and I made an agreement before we got married that he would be the head of the household and he made all of the final decisions. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That would never, never work for me. It would be like abdicating control of my life, becoming a child again...absolutely beyond my scope of understanding, but I am glad it works for you.

I rather like how my H worded it, "I am the King, but the Queen must be kept happy at all times."Laura

Hi TS,I am trying to answer to this thread but somehow it isn't working. This is a test.JL

Ragamuffin,Wow. You really have made alot of progress on the house. Were you able to blow the insulation into the walls as well? In our old house, there was absolutely no insulation at all in the place for a good 50 yrs. The second owner had blown insulation into the attic (and blown, and blown, and blown) then realized that all that insulation was going into the walls as well. Accidental, but better than nothing. Still, it was so bad that you could feel cold air coming out of the electrical outlets!

Something I just noticed...One of the banner advertisers on the top says this...."Given Men's History? Shouldn't Women Rescue us?""DestroyingAngel Read the Wonderful Novel About Unleashing Women's Supressed Genius"HAHAHAHAHAThere is a link to <A HREF="http://www.destroyingangel.com" TARGET=_blank>www.destroyingangel.com</A> I haven't gone there. It sounds a little too femi-nazi to me [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

That's the trouble with these banners---they know too much about your past internet history. They pick "appropriate" sites for you.I've had "cooking.com" and "gardner's newtork" as my two links for this post, Stu. I'm just not a very exciting guy... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

PS: We tend not to do a "head" of the house anymore. My wife has been handling our finances for the last year or two, however, so she's "gained" in that area (which I hated---I just make money).

K,Hi, my platonic, best-of-intentions, don't-get-the-wrong-idea-cause-you're-married sweetie! Do you have a clone?! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

When ever I start feeling like I'm just too wierd, and I'll never find another guy (like my ex) who liked to cook, garden, and do some "girly" things with me, I think of guys like you and I don't get so depressed. I like doing lots of "guy" stuff too. Hope you and your family are doing well. I'm always glad to hear from you.Handling finances was never my favorite job either, but I don't like being in the dark in that respect.Actually, there are few guys on this board I'd like to clone! About the banner....OOps. I did do a search on "feminist" a couple of times just to find out what the definition is these days...and what I am. I think they would define me as a gender feminist. Basically, I believe that roles are not confined to gender, and are more likely shaped by societal influences.

Hi Stu!I'm not necessarily working on cloning, but I am doing some progeny work. My 10 year-old son came to me a couple nights ago a bit bummed: he was upset because he didn't know how to cook. We worked on making an apple pie last night. He's such a riot---he wants to sew too. Give me another 10 years or so, and you can "rob the cradle". He can climb trees like a monkey, so I'm thinking he'd make a great arborist...And I'll teach him to sail too... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

K,that would make me 46 and him 20. Hmmm. Well, I guess if it is ok for the guys to do hook up with the young'ins then it couldn't hurt for the ladies...Maybe we can set up a date with him and my daughter-to-be in 20 yrs. So far the plan is to adopt. I don't have a gender preference, but I probably will adopt from overseas which usually means girls. Sad they don't want their girls in some countries. I think they (those countries) will suffer in the long run, but I'm happy to take them off their hands in the meantime.About the sewing...if you need any tips, let me know. It is a very useful skill to have. I'm tickled that your son wants to learn that, and cook too. His wife-to-be will be very lucky.When I truly was a starving student, I used to sew most of my clothes. I still sew evening dresses for special occasions, halloween costumes, and stuff around the house. [This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 08, 2000).]

Sad to say, I have excellent skills on sewing machines and sergers... After all, I did win consecutive Home Economics awards in Jr. High. Imagine receiving THAT award at the end of the year assembly... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

K & TS... I've gotten all the banner ads that both of you have mentioned, and I cannot ever recall visiting a feminist site, or a (heaven forbid!!!) cooking site. I will plead guilty to gardening sites tho...kathi

K, SAD?! I think not!! Darnit...well, I suppose I'll have to wait for "little K" to grow up so my future daughter can take him off your hands. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I always wanted a serger. And one of those cool computerized machines that do embroidery too. Ah well. One of these days when I have a real job again...Kam, Another gardener, huh? Cool! What part of the country do you live in?

Student,I realize you write here of an overseas adoption, but you have mentioned before, about adopting the unwanted girls from China. I have friends who have adopted children from China, daughters - I discussed adopting a daughter from there with my ex-husband about a year before our problems. I feel very strongly about this issue, I can't stand by silently while the myth of unwanted Chinese girls is perpetuated. You have been caught up in typical American "we know it all" man-bashing hype, without researching the circumstances of the adoptions. There is a fundamental human rights issue there, not one of downtrodden women. You cannot judge their culture by the woman-as-victim standards of the United States. China is a country in personal crisis because of their one child per family law. There are forced abortions, and if you are lucky enough to be in a rural area where you aren't found out, or in a district with less stringent mandatory pregnancy tests, if nobody "tells" on you, you may be lucky enough to have more than one child. If you manage to give birth, you must find a family to pay to raise your extra children, so you are not taxed out of existence, put on mandatory birth control, and even more closely watched for pregnancy.China is a society where there is no social security, no pension plan, it is the son's obligation to take care of his parents in their old age. What a horrible choice to have to make, if you don't abort her (or a second child), you must hide your pregnancy, and give her up, or sacrifice yourself in your old age. The girls that are put up for adoption, are not unwanted. I can't imagine a more noble act these people made, than to allow their flesh and blood an opportunity to live. Here in America, an unwanted pregnancy is viewed as "fixable" and a child's life is destroyed, no matter what the sex. I don't think that kind of equality is desirable to wish on any country.

Honey.west,scuze me? I am not part of the "man-bashing" hype in America. I know exactly why there are more girls available for adoption in China than there are boys, and I don't exactly give a cr*p. I am quite aware of their one child policy. The fact that it is the girls they give up for adoption and not boys means this...They still live in a country where being a MAN is more important than being a WOMAN. So, yes, I'm damn happy to take their girls, and raise them in a country they MIGHT have a chance in being treated like a worthwhile human being. Down-trodden women ARE A HUMAN RIGHTS PROBLEM. GIVING AWAY YOUR DAUGHTERS IS A HUMAN RIGHTS PROBLEM. I guess you don't see that. I WILL judge their culture. I judge it backwards and ignorant if they can't find a way to encourage their boys AND girls to be self-sufficient. Until they figure that out, I hope many,many more Americans go over there and adopt the daughters they don't want.China is not the only country where girls are more available for adoption or are routinely aborted (like they are in India). Get a clue. Females are considered worthless by many cultures compared to males, especially in poverty stricken areas. One last time...It is NOT man-bashing to point out how females are oppressed in the world. Both mothers and fathers in these countries are raised to treat their daughters as less than sons. These women grow up to do the same to their own daughters, and so it goes. One more female brought over here, is one less woman over there to propagate their ignorance. The reason why they started the one child policy is due to periods of mass starvation. They simply had too many people. I happen to believe that our planet is not capable of supporting an infinite number of humans. Either we find ways to control our population, or it will be taken care of "for us" through disease and starvation. I had my tubes tied for a reason. I was perfectly capable of bearing my own child, but there are plenty of others that need homes more than *I* need to procreate. So, I don't really have a problem with their one child policy. As a matter of fact, I think it is a whole lot more responsible than people in this country who have a zillion kids they can't support. Are you aware that approximately one American child consumes about 6-8 times the natural resources that one African child does?Anyway, even if the Chinese were able to have more children it would not change a thing. Boys will still be considered more important than girls, no matter how many they are allowed to have. [This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 08, 2000).]

The Student,I am not sure why you call yourself this but, it could not be because you are a student since you already know everything. No one has a right to judge anyone else. NO ONE. Why do you ask others for comments on your post? It seems to me that unless the post agree with want you think, you cut them down.Unless we have walked in someone elses shoes how can we know what they think or feel? If you have lived in China and experienced what these families have, then you may understand them and their motives. I know why my H is not home right now. It is because I was the head of the household and I thought I was right about everything. I am very thankful to God for teaching me different. Having ones husband as head of household is not about being a servant,it is about peace, unconditional love, and having order.Men and women are created equal but different. All cannot accept this and that is alright.I didn't accept it and it cost me my marriage. It would seem by the post here it cost a lot of others their marriages also. I have peace now because I know that my marriage will be restored and have more love than before.We cannot blame the other spouse for everything. It is not about finding a "good woman or good man" out there.It is about looking at ourselves first.No one is beyond needing to work on their behavior.It doesn't matter if A was involved or not.Both spouses make mistakes. Who are we to decide what mistake was the worst? I hope you find some peace.You will never find anyone that is "good" enough. None of us are "good" enough.We all have some kind of hangups. gentle [This message has been edited by gentle (edited December 08, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Down-trodden women ARE A HUMAN RIGHTS PROBLEM. GIVING AWAY YOUR DAUGHTERS IS A HUMAN RIGHTS PROBLEM. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>AMEN!!! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I WILL judge their culture. I judge it backwards and ignorant if they can't find a way to encourage their boys AND girls to be self-sufficient. Until they figure that out, I hope many,many more Americans go over there and adopt the daughters they don't want.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I've occasionally thought it would be great if they adopted ALL their girls out...then we would see how valuable they would have to decide women are say, 30 years from now, with no one to have any new babies at all....KathiOh, and re: gardening...I live in Texas. Summers here are tough on the garden!!!

Student,Raising a daughter to believe a father is not important in her life is the ultimate manbashing. To see you agree that a totalitarian regime's answer to overpopulation is OK, is scary, you are so naively uninformed, and take basic liberties for granted, that you can be so blindly one-faceted to see this as an oppressed woman issue. You are grossly undereducated about China's history, its structure, and its people's struggles.You bash men in general, but personally attack any woman on this board whom you believe might be happy with her estrogen level, and who can compete as well as you, if not better, in this "man's world." You are as bad an offender, attacking and putting down women as any stereotypical chauvinist I have ever met.You see Student, I have a good career, I am good at what I do, so can pretty much do my own hours, I work in a male-dominated environment, I have a home, I do home repairs, I do my own lawn, I change the oil on my car, I enjoy Home Depot, as well as Victoria's Secret. I am attractive, well educated, well read, and well versed on national and international affairs, and oh yeah, I am raising two children on my own. It is hard Student. I am doing it, and there isn't one single parent on this board, man or woman who will say it is easy, or that it is preferrable to having a two parent home, even when the oppressed mother does most of the child rearing. But I guess you know better.So you want to convince yourself that men just aren't worth it, go ahead. I would hope that you aren't allowed to doom an innocent child to a life without a father just so you can prove to everybody, look how great I am, I can be a great mother too, I don't need no stinkin man.Maybe someday you will be comfortable with who you are, that you won't have to put others down to bolster your self image. I think I've finally learned my lesson to stay away from all of your posts, because you don't want differing opinions, you want validation from men.

Honey west,I believe I will join you in not going to read Student's post. I am sure it will not bother her since she needs no one unless they praise her. My decision is for me it is not to teach her anything because I don't believe it matters to her. I am not going to visit because I have been there and done all the man bashing and tried and proved that I could do what men do just as well if not better than them. All I got was being left alone and very broken. I don't want praise. I am proud to be a woman and work hard to stay a woman. I have proably done more "man's jobs" than most women. The difference is that I do not take pride in that any longer. I take pride in being what God created me to be. Since I know how to do so many things repairing cars and home repairs, I could fall back into Satan's trap of separating men and women.Satan is the only winner when this happens or there would be no need for this forum in the first place. I am now ashame of my war with men and trying to prove something to the world. If we were all to be the same(not to be confused with equal) then we would all be the same sex and able to reproduce by ourseleves.When I first read Students post I was quick to believe I saw wisdom. I find that when I act quickly I make mistakes. Some wisdom is only shallow knowledge. I would be afraid to put Amen on anything that judges others harshly. I will stay away from these type of threads because I could fall right back into all of this bad resentful attitude about men. Praise God I now have peace. I thought this thread was suppose to be about our opinions about who is to be head of household. I will pray for the lost here. gentle [This message has been edited by gentle (edited December 09, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by honey.west: Student,So you want to convince yourself that men just aren't worth it, go ahead. I would hope that you aren't allowed to doom an innocent child to a life without a father just so you can prove to everybody, look how great I am, I can be a great mother too, I don't need no stinkin man. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sad but true, We Americans think we should rescue everyone. Pride is killing this country and 30 years from now maybe we will realize our own distructive behavior. No this is not my wish or sentence it is the truth. gentle[This message has been edited by gentle (edited December 09, 2000).]

to gentle and honey.west,The name of the thread was "for all who like a good debate"... I did not slam a single person, male or female, for believing that a man should be "head of the household".What do I get? I get one woman (honey.west) who thinks she knows more than I do about China and makes a point of telling me so. That's fine. Again, the title of the thread is "for all who like a good debate". Then she gets pissed when I not only make it clear how much I do know about China, but that I've actually taken the time to form my own opinion about it, which is different than hers. The other woman (gentle) calls me "unwise" for not holding her belief about a man's or woman's position in the family. Fine. I too agree that my marriage ended because I did not let my H be the "head of the household" and said so in the beginning. However, unlike you, I would consider it selling my soul to do so and consider it physically repulsive. I would rather my marriage end than live under those conditions. As this thread attests to, there are other men out there who don't happen to believe that they have to be the "head of the household" in order to feel like a man. Even better. I see that gentle only thinks I'm "wise" when I agree with her. Hmmm. There is a psychological term called "projection". You two are just as judgemental and rigid in your thinking as you accuse me of being. You sit there and call me a man-basher, unwise, (anything else ladies?) because I'm not validating YOUR opinion. Go right ahead. Believe me, I've heard much, much worse. [This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 09, 2000).]

I'm just curious??? Isn't the whole point of a debate, point, counterpoint, with out finger shaking and name calling???????I don't understand how one could get offended knowing the ROE(rules of engagement) of a thread titled: For All Who Like A Good DebateThat being said...The give and take of this thread was going IMO pretty well, ie: point, counterpoint, then as usual my dear friend TheStudent gets taken to task and ultimately flamed for her beliefs. I can't agree with all of her beliefs, but I'm not going to get righteously indignant about it...after all they are HER beliefs. They are hers not mine!!! I'd like to think that I'm going to be allowed my own without anyone telling me I'm wrong in a viscious mannor....If you want to sway my opinion then show me with examples that do not try to insult my intelligence!!Once again we are in a quandry...no one will allow TS her values and belifes...I fear that she will get tired of everyones and stop comming here... s*** Well, goddammit she is a HUGE part of my recovery!! And I need her here!!...Her experience has on many times caused me to look at parts of me I didn't really want to and my toes hurt! But do I get all self-righteous...Not hardly!!...I am honest enough to look at my own shortcommings and maybe if I have the guts to try something different or at least think on it...Yes I am a bit pissed about the crap that has been thrown her way...And I know TS, you can handle yourself just fine [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

...but I had to say my peace on this...Hey, TS in case no one has told you they loved you today....I do.Bill (oh...if anyone is offended by my profanity TFB..I'm a bit pissed!)[This message has been edited by WilliamJ (edited December 09, 2000).][This message has been edited by WilliamJ (edited December 09, 2000).]

Awww man! Can't we all just hold hands and get along?I was going to come back and re-edit the post I just made to soften things up a bit. Look. I know I am very blunt. Some people can see through that part of me, others are put off. Not everyone is going to like me, and I'm ok with that. The biggest reason I'm not waiting for a father for my children is because I think that divorce is worse on children than having a single, stabile, loving mother or father who has the emotional and financial resources to care for that child. Above all else, I believe children need stability and love, and love can come from many sources. I take that 75% divorce statistic for multiple marriages very, very seriously. The ideal is to have two loving parents. This website attests to the fact that that doesn't happen all of the time. Being a man or a woman has nothing to do with who cooks dinner, who makes more money, who mows the lawn, or who does the laundry. For some reason, when I say that, then people think I'm saying "I don't need no stinkin man". I needed my ex. Maybe you, Honey.west, didn't read the part that said "he was my dream man in so many ways". He was my dream man because I actually believed he loved me for me, not because he apparently needed subservience in order to feel like a man. That is not my definition of a man. A real man doesn't need an employee or a servant, as Country Guy suggested. I'm kind of laughing a little bit right now. Yesterday I wore a leather skirt, a tight sweater, and some knee high boots to school and was feeling pretty proud of being a woman. I even joked around with one of my friends that I felt like grabbing the first cute guy I saw walking across campus, throwing him down on the grass, and having my way with him [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Actually, those are the "boots" talkin'. I was thinking that after I was done throwing him down on the grass and having MY way, he could pick me up, throw me over his shoulder, take me back to his "cave" and have his way with me...Ah well, nice thought anyway.

Well,As one who has been personally slammed by TS for a rather tame post (little boys get the best toys), I can understand a little of the sentiment in this thread of late. It does seem that it's usually her way or a face shot.I'm very sorry that her personal experience with the male population has been essentially negative (just my impression from her posts, & my asbestos underwear is on), but that doesen't mean that the rest of us (men) are worthless jerks (just how I usually feel after reading one of her posts). ------------------ nickit's only time that heals the pain and makes the sun come out again

Student,You don't want a debate...you want a war. In a debate one points out when a good point is made. One also admits when they were wrong. I admitted I was wrong about you having wisdom(wisdom has nothing to do with education). I also admitted I was wrong about the way I have treated men in the past. I have messed up when it comes to being a wife. I know from having lived it.Have you lived the situation in China?One thing wisdom has taught me is that unless I have walked that walk, I don't know what I am talking about. I don't know but, are you ever wrong?I take pride in all the times I have been wrong because I have learned from my wrongs. In a war both side argue that their way is the right way. In war no ones admits they are wrong. I hope you enjoy your war with the world.I for one will not fight with you. Since this is not a debate but a war, I will not be posting here again. I was trying to tell what my mistakes have taught me. So don't worry William I will leave The Student to you. I sold my soul when I fell for the big war of the sexes lie.A man being HH has nothing to do with being subservient to a man. gentle [This message has been edited by gentle (edited December 09, 2000).]

EGADS Student!! A leather skirt, tight sweater and Go-Go boots!!! What a word picture! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I just cleaned my cave today [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

gentle,have YOU lived in China? Over the years, I have worked with many people who were born and raised there. A sizable portion of the students I work with now come from China. One of my best friends lived there for many years. My advisor adopted a little girl from China. I just don't happen to agree with your point of view about China or about relationships. Big deal. I don't have to judge their culture. They are doing themselves in. All I'm doing is reaping the "benefits" of their governmental policies. Their best and brightest pursue education, and if they can manage it, a life outside of China. Their daughters are being shipped off. The remaining sons are called "little emperors". It is only a matter of time before they see the error of their ways. They will then either change their one-child policy or perhaps women will achieve a higher status as their numbers steadily decrease.As far as your relationships go, like I said before, whatever works for you. If making your H the head of the household works for you, then WONDERFUL. I never said any differently. I only said I couldn't do it myself. I even said that it appeared that most relationships who hold this view are "working". So, in my own way, I have validated your opinion. Problem is, I would rather be alone than live with that arrangement. What else do you want? OH. You want me to AGREE with you. Sorry, can't do that.I don't measure wisdom by how many people agree with me. I measure wisdom by how much I know myself. Cooker, I called you on your comment on another thread. You said "boys get the best toys". This was in response to Jamie-Lee, who already had a girl. Here's a list of other responses I've heard towards women who (finally) had a boy after having girls:1) Oh good. Now you'll have someone to carry on the family name.2) Isn't it a shame you didn't have him first?3) It's good you didn't have another girl. Boys are easier.Debates are not a mutual admiration society. Did you watch the presidential debates? They weren't exactly patting each other on the back going "good point Mr. Bush", "oh no, Mr. Vice President, I was wrong. You're point is better!" If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen! You said you are, but not without throwing in a few personal blows beforehand. I suppose that getting personal is the only remaining alternative when you have nothing else to say. Hi Bill, So, you cleaned your cave today,huh? I guess I'll have to give you directions to GaTech now [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

and arrange to have the grass mowed.[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 09, 2000).]

OK, Was there something argumentative or sexist in my comment about toys for little boys being fun?"If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen! You said you are, but not without throwing in a few personal blows beforehand. I suppose that getting personal is the only remaining alternative when you have nothing else to say."Could we have that one again, only in english this time?------------------ nickit's only time that heals the pain and makes the sun come out again

cooker,sweetheart! I have nothing against toys for little boys. I love boy toys myself. Those were MY favorite, and I'm a girl. What I'm objecting to, I suppose, is the notion of "boy toys" and "girl toys". To me, there is no such thing. Toys are whatever that girl or boy wants to play with. If I had a son, and he wanted to play with dolls and an EZ-Bake oven, I wouldn't discourage him. My nephew had a little kitchen set, so that he could "cook" along with Grandpa.At X-mas time, I was the one designated to put all of my nephew's toys together because I liked it so much. When you said the comment about "boy toys", I was thinking about all of the other things that I've heard people say in response to someone having a boy. All I could think about at the time people said those things was that they felt like having a boy was better than having a girl and it made me sick. Since the topic of discussion has drifted over to China (a country that apparently believes boys are better), it was relevent to discuss.

Okay, can we spell debate.... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Slowly...D-E-B-A-T-EAnd the subject was...Slowly...Should a man be the head of the household? --- Is it safe to talk without name calling? ---Makes me happy that I work with majority men. Now for my opinion, I happen to like the way Bill put it. Both people giving 100%/100%. I think that a man and woman should walk side by side.TS, sounded like a head turning outfit. I can't wait to lose this weight so I can get back into my clothes. Can you believe my little guy is three weeks old already?------------------ Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change...Courage to change the things I can...And the wisdom to know the difference.lady_divine77@yahoo.com

Hey Student, Sorry to interrupt,........ You say you LOVE BoyToys? I got one I'll send to ya! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

~~Murph [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Murph, Ah, you mean THE BoyToy? Nah. I learned my lesson about THOSE. I'd much rather have a MANToy! Any suggestions? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Jamie-Lee, You know it's all about attitude! It's not what you wear, or what size you are, but how you wear it and how you feel when you wear it. I'm no spring chicken (well, compared to the other "chicks" at GaTech) but I still felt pretty hot that day. It was lots of fun. Not something I do everyday, but I was in the mood then. The next day, I was back to my sweatpants and no makeup.It is hard to believe that three weeks have passed already. I have a few questions for you that I'll save for later.... [This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 09, 2000).]

honey.west said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>woman who will say it is easy, or that it is preferrable to having a two parent home<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Certainly it is not easy to raise children alone, and it is of course preferable to raise them in a two parent home. Unfortunately, there is no guarantee that the two parent home will stay that way. And the only thing worse than being raised by a single parent from the start is having one parent abandon you emotionally, having one parent morph into something completely foreign, someone who puts you at the bottom of their priority list, who only wants you around if you are perfect.By having children with my H, I in effect doomed them to being raised by a single parent, AND to the pain of having their father withdraw almost completely from them. It would have been far better for them never to have known a father.I read a review today of the movie, "Little Vampires," in which the parents turn into vampires. The reviewer said that movie is bad for young children because it frightens them so much to think about parents undergoing a transformation. Children need to be able to depend upon their parents - and it is far better to have one parent on whom you can depend than have two, when there is at least a 50% chance that one will wake up one morning a "vampire."

Hey Stu....Will I need my Echo weedeater and leaf blower...I did get a pretty fancy Honda mower two years ago... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

OK Stu, I understand your "perspective". For the record, my son had a little "kitchenette" & he loved playing with it. And, that never bothered me. We didn't know what sex he was going to be until he showed up and I would have been equally happy with a girl (untill she turned about 13 or 14 [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

..... ).What makes a kid special doesn't have anything to do with their sex, or the toys they play with. (Although I'll take a remote control monster truck over a Barbie pink Beetle ANY day [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

) What makes them special is the opportunity you have to help shape them into a kind considerate caring individual who will make this planet a better place, just for being here.When all is said and done and my life is over, all I want to be remembered for is having raised my son to be a good man.------------------ nickit's only time that heals the pain and makes the sun come out again

My STBX always said he wanted me to take his lead. I had a real problem with it in that he never made sound decisions regarding almost anything. I also attribute my reluctance in following his lead to a degree of lack of respect for him. He never followed thru with anything, left everything undone or languish. He made many bad decisions and long lasting mistakes without forethought of their consequences (i.e., fathering two OC during our marriage) Anyone who can't figure out that having unprotected sex can result in disease or OC surely isn't someone I can respect or follow their lead.My belief is that in a marriage one or the other partner should take the lead at a given time, but no one should be controlled or manipulated. I'm a firm believer of POJA in a marriage.Jo[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited December 10, 2000).]

Cooker,Bravo! And that is all I'd want for any child, male or female.Back to the adoption issue: For the record, I honestly have no gender preference myself. After doing research on the requirements for overseas adoptions, it became clear that the majority of children up for adoption were girls and the websites said so. Supposedly our own population is 52% female. I'm not sure if that is due to more females being born or due to their longetivity. So having more females up for adoption in some countries may have nothing to do with sexist practices. This is not the case in China. I also am interested in China because they don't have a widespread problem with AIDS or drug and alcohol addiction. The majority of the children up for adoption come from the poorer rural regions, which is also true of some of the South American countries. Being heavily Catholic, there are some South American countries who will not let a single woman adopt. Some of them won't even allow adoption to a couple in which one of them has previously been divorced!Also, the process is very quick right now for people who want children from China. There are lots of people going to countries like Romania and Russia, so I've read that it can take quite awhile. My advisor had their little girl home with them in less than three months after the application. Now to the original topic: The reason why I'm opposed to the head of the household idea is because I think it limits discussion and input from both spouses. If I actually believed that my H would have the final say on everything just because he was the H, I wouldn't have much incentive to talk about anything. What would be the point? He's just going to do what he wants in the end anyway? Not only that, it infantilizes (is that a word? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

) the other person. By removing decision making ability from the other spouse, they do not learn and grow. Living under a dictatorship can be quite efficient. As we've all seen with our current presidential election, a democracy (i.e. POJA) can be quite messy and time consuming. However, I still think it is the best way to assure that both spouses have a stake in the relationship. Furthermore, placing leadership in the hands of any person simply because they happened to be born with a certain set of genitals doesn't make sense to me.

Ok Student...I do see your point on the adoption...I have only one counter point...given your current single status...Who would be you adopted childs strong male role model?Don.t get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for single moms, however I truly feel that children need to have that father figure. I am not saying I am opposed to your idea, because anytime a child can be loved and nurtured is a great thing. Bringing a child to this great country of ours and giving them the opportunity to experience "freedom" is even better.It looks as if the majority of us tend to agree on the head of household idea, <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html" TARGET=_blank>POJA</A> seems to be the best method.Where do we each stand on taking a future husbands sir name?I am old fashioned. I saw it as a great honor for my ex to share my name.She used her maiden initial as her middle name.Bill

Bill,I lost my maiden name when I got married the first time, and I'll lose my stbx's name if I ever get married again. I'm keeping my married name now because of my kids. They want me to have the same last name they do.Mitzi [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Bill,I agree that it is best for children to have role models from either gender. This is something I'm still trying to figure out. I have four friends who were raised by single mothers. One had the father die and the mother did not remarry. Another one's father completely abandoned them, and she is still feeling the effects. The third had a father that threatened them with a gun, and cheated on her mother. Her mother eventually did remarry when she was about 10 yrs old. The fourth one is a male friend. His mother and father never did marry and always lived in separate houses. They had a very amicable relationship, and he went to his dad's place after school. She also had other male friends who had children, and my friend was part of a playgroup network. In his case, he never went through the divorce hell. His father was always a good male friend apparently. Of the four of these friends, the most well adjusted of all of them was the one whose father had died. This friend apparently has a happy and stabile marriage, has a child, graduated from MIT, and by all accounts seems to be a very happy person. The other two, like me, have had their share of hardships and seem to be having a harder time coping with life in general (again, like me). It is yet to be seen what happens with my male friend. He is too young to have gotten into too much trouble [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

He is only about 25.After all I've been through in life, I don't know if I'm capable of having a healthy intimate relationship with a man. It is almost like I have to go back to square one, which is why I'm celibate now and focusing on building friendships with men. I'm hoping that any future son or daughter will learn how to develop relationships (friendships or otherwise) that are based on mutual respect. I hope I can show them this through my "extended" family. That is the plan so far.As far as the name goes...I could never change my name again. Me and my ex had an argument before we got married. I wanted to keep my name and he wanted me to take his. His name sounded nicer, so I took it. That probably should have been another indicator that he was more traditional than me. I had my name changed back in the divorce papers.I understand why it is important to alot of people. It does tend to solidify the image of a "family unit". Having my name swapped so many times, though, I've started to associate my maiden name with my own personal identity. To me, a woman changing her name is symbolic. She agrees to give up her personal identity in favor of his, which is not a feeling I enjoyed, especially because the man is not expected to do anything equally symbolic to show his allegience to the partnership. It is not something I think I can explain. Just try and imagine, Bill, walking around with a different name after all of these years. People who haven't seen you in a long time don't know what to call you. You have to learn how to write another person's name. Identification with your own family unit is lost (i.e. people thought I was french because my ex's name was french). I could go on.

TS,I can see you point about the name thing...I wouldn't want to have to go through that...I don't see it as losing an identity...If my Next wife loses her identity, I don't think I'd want her around too long, make sence? I mean I gave my ex the total freedom to be who she wanted to be. I tried to support her in all she did. I like a woman that knows who she is and wants to grow that, while I continue down life's path...Should I meet a woman that I can see myself old and gray sitting in a rocking chair with, and she wants her own name instead of mine I honestly do not believe this will deter me from proceeding...I too know a couple of well adjusted people that were only raised by their mothers, but I know a lot more that are pretty screwed up...I guess it all depends on how they were taught to deal with life's terms...Do you rake your grass clippings or mulch them into fertilizer?? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Bill

Bill,I'm guessing some of those with single mothers may not be well-adjusted because their moms are bitter and hate men. I don't want any son or daughter of mine to fear an intimate relationship or stay out of one for the wrong reasons. I don't know. After this divorce I had to really consider whether I was the type of person who was cut out for marriage. Part of the reason our marriage failed was due to mistakes and problems on both of our sides, but I think it was also due to my resentment of what was expected of me as a "wife". Both from him and from those around us. All of a sudden, I was expected to morph from an independant person with my own goals and thoughts into someone who could only exist through the goals and thoughts of my husband. This was not the "deal" I agreed to when I got married, and I thought I was very clear about it from the beginning. I thought it was very clear that I saw marriage as a partnership, where we both support each other's dreams, and we negotiate the tough spots together. If my ex even ONCE tried to tell me that the man should "call the shots" before we got married, I never would have married him. To this day, I have no idea why he believed I was that kind of woman. Maybe he just "assumed" that because I agreed to marry him that I was going to fall into the traditional role. Just like I "assumed" that my first H was going to be faithful because he decided to marry me. From what I can tell, both of them had ideas about lifestyle that they didn't share with me prior to marriage. In my first marriage, I didn't ask the hard questions. In my second marriage, he told me he would move for me if that is what it came to, and told me he would support my educational goals. So, I did everything I could (IMO) not to "assume" he would support me. He lied to me, or maybe he lied to himself. Who knows?I'm sure this is mostly my perception (and who knows what reality is!!), but I haven't met a man yet that doesn't (at some level) hold some variation of the traditional concept for marriage. I take that back. I have met men who don't, but they usually don't believe in monogamy either, so they are out. I don't think the "traditional" roles are necessarily a bad thing. It appears to work for a whole lot of people. I tried the open marriage thing with my first H, and couldn't do it. I tried the traditional route with my second H. Neither of these arrangements were what I felt I had agreed upon before marrying them, but I tried my best because of the commitment I made. My ex was a whole lot more untraditional than alot of guys I met because he didn't have any hangups about men's chores or women's chores. Maybe that is what blows me away the most. Here's a guy (my ex) who treated me equally in so many other ways, yet still expected me to just follow along and support his goals and not expect the same in return.Of course, I didn't find that out until long after we were married and I had supported him for quite some time. That is why I'm so jaded. I'm thinking, what's the use? I'll just get taken for granted again. My ex hid his true beliefs for such a long time. [This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 10, 2000).]

Hi TS,I have been trying to stay out of this "debate". I did try to post earlier and my long message wouldn't post, so I gave up with too much to do.You said something in your last post <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> My ex was a whole lot more untraditional than alot of guys I met because he didn't have any hangups about men's chores or women's chores. Maybe that is what blows me away the most. Here's a guy (my ex) who treated me equally in so many other ways, yet still expected me to just follow along and support his goals and not expect the same in return.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Has it occured to you that in your endeavor to seek out the non-traditional man and focus on what men "don't do" that you have completely missed the important stuff? I mean the really important stuff to you as well as your exH. For all of the "sharing" for his moving (albeit without the level of enthusiasm you wanted), you had the affair. Whats more your non-traditional H could not handle it and would not work on the marriage.Yet, if you read on this board, most of the men working on their marriages, trying to overcome W's infidelity are "traditional men". I don't know what the answer is, but I suspect you need to find it. I think you are focusing on the symptoms and not the real "facts". I don't know what the "facts" are in your case, but you need to find out what they are.Now, of course you don't really need to do this since you are not remarrying. But I suspect for your pease of mind it might help. It is true with the "Head of the Household" thing. Have you ever really known a man who was the head of the household as you seem to define it? I haven't in my entire 55 years ever met a man like that. I have met a few who "thought" they were, but a bit of observation always revealed, it was an illusion. From everything you have said your Father wasn't a head of the household, neither were either of your exH's. I think you are defining this role in the negative, because you preceive that it detracts from you rather than simply adding to the other person.If I can ever get my other post to work, I will repost it.Keep learning TS.JL

TS,You are not sucking me into another of these long arguements. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

No, you are not going to do it. Ah Nuts! I AM THE HEAD OF OUR HOUSE Yes, I am. After 25 years there is no doubt I am the head of my household, what I say goes. My W even agrees. It really is that simple.Upon thinking about it, though, I can't recall the last time I had to make a decision. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Indeed, I don't ever recall having to make a decision. My wife is so agreeable, that every time a big issue comes up, she agrees with me. Indeed, I am amazed at how persuasive I am. Yup! I am good, real good. In fact, I cannot remember a really big important decision that when it came down to it, there was really a decision at all. I have found if I collect the data, like any good head of household should do, from other people, financial, from my W, that the data tells you which way to do. I have found that things just seem to happen in my household and I don't even have to say anything. Now that is the way to run things isn't it? Quite frankly TS, I am a scientist. I could easily spend 20 hours aday, 7 days a week doing my research and running the business associated with it. I married a woman that was compentent and has similar tastes as I do, has similar views of raising children, because I knew that quite frankly my work demanded enormous time.I suppose I am the head of the household, but quite frankly I would be fool not to pay attention to my W if she had a strong objection or even a mild objection to anything I wanted to do. I cannot read her mind but I believe she is the same way. We talk to each other constantly, we tell each other what is going on, what our schedules will be. With three kids 13 and over all very active, it takes 3 calenders to keep track of everyones comings and goings.She is a stay at home Mom, although she does work for me parttime. I could not be married to a woman where I had to be the "Head of the Household". Quite frankly it is a ceremonial job in our house. I suppose I could run everyones life, but that would be counter productive to me. And probably everyone else.In case you haven't noticed I do have strong opinions, I can be loud if necessary, and I can intimidate people physically ( I am a large man), but be the real "head of a household"? I cannot see the fun in it.Frankly, I have always felt that men being the head of the household had more to do with power sharing. You see women run the house, they call the shots in sex, they now call the shots in having children. So I have always felt that woman have bestowed this position on men, to make them feel like they are part of the household. Some men I suppose, actually think they run the house. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

However, a women would be nuts to really take over the job in my opinion. She is not likely to be significantly better than her H at all things, maybe she is and she probably gets what she wants anyway. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

If she really does run everything with little input from her H, then the marriage is probably doomed. Further, if the H doesn't feel he has "any" say in things, he will completely bow out, as TS likes to point out "sharing" household duties is not something men live for either.Makes no difference to me what women decide. But I wouldn't ever marry one that thought they should be the "head of the household". The power imbalance would be too hugh in my mind. On the other hand, I view my position as "Head of the Household" as very ceremonial because quite frankly a decision that both my W and I don't agree on is not going to be made anytime soon.You see TS I don't view women as the enemy. I view my W as a hugh asset. I value her opinions, Oh! we disagree about little things, or even big things like sex or affection, but things that have to do with the house and the children, not a chance.Finally, being a product of a military family and alot of military training myself, I will tell you something. A really good leader very rarely has to issue direct orders. He/She selects the staff for their competence, trains the troops to know what the mission is and how to accomplish it and very rarely has to order anyone around. Everyone knows their job and they do it.So after all of this I don't know how to answer your question. In most families I know about the person closest in touch with the problem or with the most experience makes the final call if a decision must be made and there isn't agreement.Heck, if I know my W knows more about something than me I won't venture an opinion unless asked. She knows what she is doing.Did I confuse things sufficiently to get a real debate going? In someways I cannot relate to this question, perhaps I don't see it from my W's point of view, but I think I see our situation clearly.JL[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited December 10, 2000).]

TheStudent, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I'm guessing some of those with single mothers may not be well-adjusted because their moms are bitter and hate men.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't think you should jump to the conclusion that their lack of adjustment is their mother's fault. What about rejection by their father? Why does the custodial parent always get blamed? A long time ago I read of a man whose children were having psychological problems who actually had the gall to say that it couldn't be his fault, because, after all, he spent hardly any time with them as they were growing up.

boy oh boyI'm tired......I try to not get involved with TS's debates, not because I do or do not agree, but because it wears me out....I don't mean any disrespect to anyone at all here, and I enjoy reading everyone's different opinions, but here's my take on all this.I have so much going on in my life right now that I am trying to sort through, that 'fighting' with you guys who are all so precious to me is just not on.I don't always agree with TS, but she is entitled to her opinions. And her feelings, and what she wants. Whether we think she will find what she is looking for is immaterial - aren't we all here to support each other. I love a good debate usually, but just lately, (like the last year and a half), I don't have the energy for it. Sorry.I'm going to make the exception here. I feel that no-one and both should be the head of the household. POJA all the way for me. I thought we had that, and we did on the big stuff like buying furniture, holiday destinations etc, but it was the small stuff that killed us. I have no idea where or when my next partner will be, I'm not looking, but it will have to feel right. I'm not going to make any big sweeping statements about what he has to be like, what he will have to say or do in any given situation, or how he will have to be, but if it feels right, and we mesh together, and we have each other's best interests at heart, then it has to be right. Right?????What's that old saying. One for all, and all for one.... Something like that. That's my new marriage policy.love and hugs to you ALL. Jo

JL, There was a bunch of stuff I was going to say, but me and you have been through it all before. I keep coming back and editing [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I wish I was you. I wish I could have a nice job and a nice person to stay at home and raise my kids. But because I was born with an inny instead of an outie, I can't have that. You just take it for granted that you have those things, and you chalk it up to your relationship skills. Ok, I give you lots of credit for that. I really do, but you have to admit that having 100 million years of evolution on your side isn't bad either. It is still true (for the most part) that if a woman wants a family, she has to quit her job or put her career on the sidelines. I understand that alot of men make some career sacrifices as well, but not like the women do. Some of my women friends who have stayed home lament about their lack of ambition, or whatever. I always tell them that they have lots of ambition, it is just directed in a different way than me. It is directed towards being a good mother and taking care of her family. I love my SAHF (that means, stay-at-home-friends). I just wish I could have someone as devoted as them (but male) stay-at-home and raise my kids, but that is not to be. Nellie, The single mom I had in mind were ones in which the father was never in the picture from the beginning. Ones in which the children may be consistently deprived of male attention due to a woman's hatred of all men. Even though people probably believe I fall into that category, I don't think I do. The examples I listed from my friend's experiences tend to show that a bad fatherly influence is worse than no influence. for bill, As long as my father lives, I will want my children to spend lots of time with him. I hope to have plenty of good male friends and lots of little boys for my children to play with. So, I can't seem to keep an intimate relationship together for whatever reason. That doesn't mean I can't be a good parent. The way I've rationalized it is this...by adopting, I'm giving a child a home who may not have one. I'm capable both emotionally and financially of providing a safe, nurturing, stabile, home. [This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 11, 2000).][This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 11, 2000).]

I was going to write something else, but changed my mind.[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 11, 2000).]

TS,I think you missed my point. I am the head of my household in my mind. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

In my W's mind, I think you find a different answer. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

In reality I have less input than the kids, sometimes. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

As for having it very easy and stress free, well I don't know about that. I did do one thing right in my mind anyway. I waited until I was 31 to get married. School was almost finished and military service was behind me. In short after a fair amount of fooling around I knew who I was. Well, sort of. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

I also had an advantage over you. My family (Mother and Father) trained me well. And that I really cannot over emphasize. You weren't so fortunate.Oh! and like K, I did learn to sew, by the time I was four. My Grandmothers were both seamstresses and they taught me at an early age how to sew. Also learned to cook at an early age. In fact, both my W and I are pretty self-sufficient. You can find her at Home Depot alot. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

As I said I don't really know how to answer your Head of the Household question. You see my experience has been that successful marriages, somehow really don't address that issue, because it isn't an issue.Hope this clears things up abit.God Bless,JLPS: I think one of the things that may have thrown you off is that I had to remove all of the smiley faces to get the response to post. And then it wouldn't let me edit them back in. I am puzzled by that as well.[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited December 11, 2000).]

Just Learning,I found it interesting that you mentioned that you had waited until you were 31 to marry. My H was 30 when we married - and he told our daughter that he had made a mistake marrying me, but he was young at the time...then again, perhaps he was getting our marriage confused with his first marriage, when he was 21.

JL, I've never felt it was a mistake to marry either of my husbands. I made the best choices I could at the time, and despite my personal failings, did not give up on either of them. If anything, I made a mistake getting married at all. It appears that marriage is a dying institution. "Till death do you part" means nothing. It is just a piece of paper to most people. I didn't get married expecting to be happy 24-7 or that they would be perfect, or that I would be "in love" forever. I expected they would keep trying. So, to me, there really is very little value in getting married because it is so easy to get a divorce. Because my exes did not "feel like it" anymore, I get to live with the stigma of two divorces. My parents were 20 and 21 when they got married, and they are still together. My dad certainly deserved to be divorced many times over. It took me a long time to forgive my mother for keeping us in that environment. There was a happy ending though. They are both great parents now, and will be wonderful grandparents. Alright. Here's one for ya. Is it important for you to FEEL like you are the head of the household? You mentioned that a good leader doesn't need to issue commands, because everyone knows what their job is. By who's definition is "their job". My ex thought MY job should be defined by him, and would get oh-so-peeved when I did not respond to his "training methods". He felt like any request he had should be honored (obeyed?) as long as he said it in a nice voice. Spot, sit. Spot, roll over. Spot, fetch. And of course, if it wasn't done in a manner that was exactly to his specifications, then it was a "mistake". There was no room for me as a human being in that marriage, much less a partner. I'll never forget this one thing that happened on our honeymoon... He was standing next to our tour guide and said "watch this". Hey, Stu, I've got a cookie! I came running of course, because we had just stopped at a bakery and those cookies looked good and I wanted some. He took a picture of me running towards him. Once I got there, he had a good laugh (at my expense). He shared his little "joke" with me after I got there. I remember feeling pretty humiliated at the time. That is what my ex was all about. He didn't love me. He just liked watching me jump through hoops for him, like a f*cking dog.

I didn't get married expecting to be happy 24-7 or that they would be perfect, or that I would be "in love" forever. I expected they would keep trying.Amen. Nothing in this world prepared me for the feeling I got when she told me it was over, and she didn't want to try anymore. I was absolutely amazed at how easy it is to get divorced [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Alright. Here's one for ya. Is it important for you to FEEL like you are the head of the household? Not at all. I want a partner, not a servant. Marriage should be that, a partnership. My vows were "Love, Honor and Cherish". While I may have failed to live fully up to those vows, I didn't give up. I seriously believed it was "til death us do part".If I ever find someone else to share my life with, there is going to be a very serious discussion about what each of us want, like, dislike, need, etc. I can't imagine going through this emotional hell again. ------------------ nickit's only time that heals the pain and makes the sun come out again

oops, I hate it when I do that... ------------------ nickit's only time that heals the pain and makes the sun come out again[This message has been edited by c00ker (edited December 12, 2000).]

TS,You ask some hard questions. "Is it important to me to be the head of the household?" I thought about that a long time and it really isn't a yes or no answer. But for sake of "debate" I will say: Yes, it is. It is very important that my children respect me and it is even more important that my W respect me.Now comes the complicated part. Does "respect" mean that they differ to me in all things? No! With my children, what I say goes. And I am not being funny this time. I am the parent and the father and I do control that aspect of the household. However, before "great edicts" are pronounced, my W has her say.We made a deal before we got married. We would never undermine the others authority. If she tells the kids to do something or lets them do something that I don't agree with, she and I talk about it. If I tell the kids something or do something, that she doesn't like she and I talk about it. We never give the kids diverging opinions on these matters.It is really that simple. Between my W and I the head of the household,is a very fluid thing. If the kids ask her something, she will often differ to me or insist that they get my opinion before a decision is made. It shows the children that she respects me and they should do the same. I guess that makes me the head of the household.However, when the kids come to me about something, I do the same. I differ to her if she has already made a judgement or I insist that the get her opinion, after all she is there "MOTHER". Does that make her the head of the household?I suppose in money issues I am the head of the household. I do the taxes. I manage the investments. I save for the college tuition. I have a large say in major finanicial spending. I have not seen my check book in a decade. I spend almost none of the money in the house. I help pick out funiture, colors, wall paper, carpets, etc. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

In short, TS, it is important to me that my W and my children respect me, my experience, and my knowledge. It is important to me that they respect their mother/my W. It is important to me that they know I respect her.Am I the head of the household? You tell me. I really don't know. I do have a major say in things, but so does my W. Interestingly, the kids are free to debate and discuss the pro's and con's of something they want to do. However, when decision time comes my W or I make it and that is it.So I don't know how to answer you question. In many ways we are very traditional. My W wanted to stay home and not work. Both of her parents worked and she was an only child. I have always suspected she never wanted her children to be lonely like she was.Are you seeing an interesting trend here? You should be. Our marriage is defined by the children. If we didn't have children we could be married or not, because we were and are good friends, but no we don't have the same hobbies.TS, what I am really trying to say is that marriage and how an H/W interact with each other, is so complex. Even in the most "Ozzie and Harriet" marriages, the dance between the two is very complex. In fact that is what made that show funny. Even in the stereotypical roles, the interaction is so complex, it is laughable.The issue of the Head of the Household, is really a red herring. It is do you respect your mate? Do you do it in ways that allow them to know that. As I have said, I have known a few men that were the "Head of the Household", but if you knew the couple, you'd realize that she permitted this because she felt respected. In reality she had at least as much power in the relationship as he did.They had reached an accomodation that suited them. She pretty much did what she wanted and he let her. He was the "Head of the Household" for ceremonial occasions. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Kind of like the Queen of England these days.So let me ask you a question, TS. Did you really respect your exH's? Or did you just love them? You might want to think about that.God Bless,JL

Hi JL,I know that I did not respect my first H, I certainly did not respect my father (although that has changed). I did respect my second H, but it became clear over time that he did not respect me and probably never did. I really don't know why he married me. In another thread I mentioned all of the criticism my ex did. Silly things like a coffee spoon on the counter, dental floss in the bathroom. Those are small examples (and there were many, many more), but as you mentioned earlier, you never felt the need or desire to "micromanage" your household. You respect your wife enough to make decisions about herself, your household, and your children. You two negotiate the "big stuff" and don't sweat the small stuff. That was the big problem with me and my second ex. I grew to resent his micromanaging and constant "corrections" and criticism for (what I consider) some pretty stupid stuff. Then, if I didn't step in line, it was like I was challenging him or something. The reality is (as you know) there are always little idiosyncracies you have to deal with when you live with another person, be it family, a wife/husband, or even a roommate. Trying to "train" them to be exactly like you is condescending and probably unproductive. I say unproductive because it makes it less likely that they will respond to the BIG stuff if you are constantly harping on little stuff. You know, the old story about crying "wolf". This is exactly what happened with me and my second ex. When he tried to warn me about the OM, I thought "yea, right". I mean, it wasn't anything I hadn't heard a zillion times before. Lord knows how many hoops I jumped through over the years trying to "prove" my fidelity and responding to his every whim and insecurity. For what? Cause I slept with the guy I went to prom with ten years before I ever met my second H?After awhile I was sick of defending myself, sick of the suspicion, sick of his anger, sick of feeling guilty for going to school. I felt like a caged animal and that there was nothing I could do to make him trust me. I get mad sometimes because I feel like he never should have married me if he couldn't trust me. For a long time I felt like it was my fault, like I was this bad person and had to prove myself to him for some reason. I don't feel like that anymore.

TS,Are you seeing why the "Head of Household" sets your teeth on edge so much? I hope so. Are also seeing that "respect" is the operative word here, not "Head of Household"? To me it seems you are throwing road blocks up with regard to your "theoretical" next man. I contend that for most men it is far easier to divide tasks, assume responsibility for those tasks, and respect the W that is doing hers. I also think it is easier for most women this way.How the division takes place is far more flexible. Look at the answers you have gotten from the men on this forum.I do think you are guilty of one crime TS. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

It is of taking two, perhaps three, data points and trying to predict a nonlinear trend. Shame on you. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

A trained engineer shouldn't do that. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Quite frankly, some of the things your say about your exH, I just cannot fathom. It is really not in my experience to do what he has done. So I do have a hard time, understanding where he is/was coming from and why you married him. When you post these events, my initial response is "What? She put up with that?" I just cannot see doing this to someone (at least consciously) or tolerating it from someone.But I do sense that your tolerance of it has to do with your feelings and your past. These are changing. Interestingly you past is changing as well; in a peculiar way. You father as become the Dad you needed when you grew up. He can never give you back your childhood, but he is trying to give you something you needed from him, love and respect. Maybe it will help you as time goes on. I sure hope so.Really, it is apparent that you have many things to work through. Yet, I do expect that you will do that and find the happiness you seek. I really wasn't kidding in my many earlier posts. I do expect that you will find the happiness you seek once you are out of school and heading down lives highway.I would love to be there to say: "I told you so." [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Honestly, I wouldn't do that. But perhaps I just might stand there with a hugh smile on my face. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

It will work out well for you TS. Have faith in yourself and people in general. Given a choice most people would rather do good than bad.God Bless,JL

JL, My father's (and mother's) transformation has done wonders for me in many ways. First, I experienced how someone can honestly turn their life around, given enough time and effort. Second, his efforts and acknowledgement of our pain has helped all of us forgive and heal our hurts from that period in our lives. Everytime I get on the phone with them I tell them how much I love them. It is a wonderful thing. Although you might find this hard to believe, my second ex treated me better than any man I had ever been with before. He took me places, we did fun things together. Heck, he was the first man who ever bought me flowers. I was 26 when I met him. The times he would cut me down (before we got married) seemed insignificant compared to all of these other wonderful things. I figured that every relationship had problems, and that I could prove myself to him over time. However, his suspicions only grew over time. I kept trying harder and harder to prove myself, all the while thinking that I really must be a bad person, and that maybe I was doing something to deserve this treatment. It truly is the classic evolvement of abuse. Over time your self-esteem becomes completely eroded to the point where you believe you deserve it. To make things worse, I never had an example of a healthy relationship, so I figured that this is what "love" was about. That this was how life was supposed to be for women, more-or-less. I went to counseling for a year by myself before I decided I wanted to go back to school. It was completely useless, IMO. This same counselor is the one who later told me I never should have confessed to my second ex.Anyway, can you see why I'm not interested in dating? I've said before that I feel like I have to completely go back to square one when it comes to men. If there were a theoretical age when it comes to my relationships, I'd say I'm still an "infant". Right now, I'm very careful to only associate with men who respect women. That's the best I can do right now.When you say things will change for me after graduation, for the most part I agree with you. However, there are many things that will not change for a long, long time. Yes, I will be in a more secure position financially, but that never was my reason for being with a man. What won't change for a very long time is the way I relate, and so I'm forced to do the baby steps. When I got married, I had figuratively entered a class in Calculus without even learning how to multiply and divide. I'm going back to "math for daily living now"...You know, JL, I don't think either of my exes were "bad" people. Like me, I suppose they were doing the best they could given the inadequate parenting they had too. My second ex learned from his dad that, if you couldn't get respect the legitimate way, then fear worked just as well. I learned from my dad that living in fear was tolerable, even the norm. I DID know that physical abuse was unacceptable, but was not aware of verbal/emotional abuse. Not only that, verbal/emotional abuse always preceeds physical abuse. My second ex was physically abusive to me twice during a two week period following my confession. That was when he decided to move out.When you talk about the "head of the household", there is no doubt that both my father and his father were the "head of the household", but in a very sick way. Fear is a very good motivator. [This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 15, 2000).]