JL,<BR>I've never felt it was a mistake to marry either of my husbands. I made the best choices I could at the time, and despite my personal failings, did not give up on either of them. If anything, I made a mistake getting married at all. It appears that marriage is a dying institution. "Till death do you part" means nothing. It is just a piece of paper to most people. I didn't get married expecting to be happy 24-7 or that they would be perfect, or that I would be "in love" forever. I expected they would keep trying. So, to me, there really is very little value in getting married because it is so easy to get a divorce. Because my exes did not "feel like it" anymore, I get to live with the stigma of two divorces. <P>My parents were 20 and 21 when they got married, and they are still together. My dad certainly deserved to be divorced many times over. It took me a long time to forgive my mother for keeping us in that environment. There was a happy ending though. They are both great parents now, and will be wonderful grandparents. <P>Alright. Here's one for ya. Is it important for you to FEEL like you are the head of the household? You mentioned that a good leader doesn't need to issue commands, because everyone knows what their job is. By who's definition is "their job". My ex thought MY job should be defined by him, and would get oh-so-peeved when I did not respond to his "training methods". He felt like any request he had should be honored (obeyed?) as long as he said it in a nice voice. Spot, sit. Spot, roll over. Spot, fetch. And of course, if it wasn't done in a manner that was exactly to his specifications, then it was a "mistake". There was no room for me as a human being in that marriage, much less a partner. <P>I'll never forget this one thing that happened on our honeymoon... He was standing next to our tour guide and said "watch this". Hey, Stu, I've got a cookie! I came running of course, because we had just stopped at a bakery and those cookies looked good and I wanted some. He took a picture of me running towards him. Once I got there, he had a good laugh (at my expense). He shared his little "joke" with me after I got there. I remember feeling pretty humiliated at the time. <P>That is what my ex was all about. He didn't love me. He just liked watching me jump through hoops for him, like a f*cking dog.

<BR><B> I didn't get married expecting to be happy 24-7 or that they would be perfect, or that I would be "in love" forever. I expected they would keep trying.</B><P>Amen. Nothing in this world prepared me for the feeling I got when she told me it was over, and she didn't want to try anymore. I was absolutely amazed at how easy it is to get divorced <P><B>Alright. Here's one for ya. Is it important for you to FEEL like you are the head of the household? </B><P>Not at all. I want a partner, not a servant. Marriage should be that, a partnership. My vows were "Love, Honor and Cherish". While I may have failed to live fully up to those vows, I didn't give up. I seriously believed it was "til death us do part".<P>If I ever find someone else to share my life with, there is going to be a very serious discussion about what each of us want, like, dislike, need, etc. I can't imagine going through this emotional hell again.<BR><P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain and makes the sun come out again

oops, I hate it when I do that...<P><BR>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain and makes the sun come out again<p>[This message has been edited by c00ker (edited December 12, 2000).]

TS,<P>You ask some hard questions. "Is it important to me to be the head of the household?" I thought about that a long time and it really isn't a yes or no answer. <P>But for sake of "debate" I will say: Yes, it is. It is very important that my children respect me and it is even more important that my W respect me.<P>Now comes the complicated part. Does "respect" mean that they differ to me in all things? No! With my children, what I say goes. And I am not being funny this time. I am the parent and the father and I do control that aspect of the household. However, before "great edicts" are pronounced, my W has her say.<P>We made a deal before we got married. We would never undermine the others authority. If she tells the kids to do something or lets them do something that I don't agree with, she and I talk about it. If I tell the kids something or do something, that she doesn't like she and I talk about it. We never give the kids diverging opinions on these matters.<P>It is really that simple. Between my W and I the head of the household,is a very fluid thing. If the kids ask her something, she will often differ to me or insist that they get my opinion before a decision is made. It shows the children that she respects me and they should do the same. I guess that makes me the head of the household.<P>However, when the kids come to me about something, I do the same. I differ to her if she has already made a judgement or I insist that the get her opinion, after all she is there "MOTHER". Does that make her the head of the household?<P>I suppose in money issues I am the head of the household. I do the taxes. I manage the investments. I save for the college tuition. I have a large say in major finanicial spending. <P>I have not seen my check book in a decade. I spend almost none of the money in the house. I help pick out funiture, colors, wall paper, carpets, etc. <P>In short, TS, it is important to me that my W and my children respect me, my experience, and my knowledge. It is important to me that they respect their mother/my W. It is important to me that they know I respect her.<P>Am I the head of the household? You tell me.<BR>I really don't know. I do have a major say in things, but so does my W. Interestingly, the kids are free to debate and discuss the pro's and con's of something they want to do. However, when decision time comes my W or I make it and that is it.<P>So I don't know how to answer you question. In many ways we are very traditional. My W wanted to stay home and not work. Both of her parents worked and she was an only child. I have always suspected she never wanted her children to be lonely like she was.<P>Are you seeing an interesting trend here? You should be. Our marriage is defined by the children. If we didn't have children we could be married or not, because we were and are good friends, but no we don't have the same hobbies.<P>TS, what I am really trying to say is that marriage and how an H/W interact with each other, is so complex. Even in the most "Ozzie and Harriet" marriages, the dance between the two is very complex. In fact that is what made that show funny. Even in the stereotypical roles, the interaction is so complex, it is laughable.<P>The issue of the Head of the Household, is really a red herring. It is do you respect your mate? Do you do it in ways that allow them to know that. As I have said, I have known a few men that were the "Head of the Household", but if you knew the couple, you'd realize that she permitted this because she felt respected. In reality she had at least as much power in the relationship as he did.<P>They had reached an accomodation that suited them. She pretty much did what she wanted and he let her. He was the "Head of the Household" for ceremonial occasions. <P>Kind of like the Queen of England these days.<P>So let me ask you a question, TS. Did you really respect your exH's? Or did you just love them? You might want to think about that.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<BR>

Hi JL,<P>I know that I did not respect my first H, I certainly did not respect my father (although that has changed). I did respect my second H, but it became clear over time that he did not respect me and probably never did. I really don't know why he married me. <P>In another thread I mentioned all of the criticism my ex did. Silly things like a coffee spoon on the counter, dental floss in the bathroom. Those are small examples (and there were many, many more), but as you mentioned earlier, you never felt the need or desire to "micromanage" your household. You respect your wife enough to make decisions about herself, your household, and your children. You two negotiate the "big stuff" and don't sweat the small stuff. <P>That was the big problem with me and my second ex. I grew to resent his micromanaging and constant "corrections" and criticism for (what I consider) some pretty stupid stuff. Then, if I didn't step in line, it was like I was challenging him or something. The reality is (as you know) there are always little idiosyncracies you have to deal with when you live with another person, be it family, a wife/husband, or even a roommate. Trying to "train" them to be exactly like you is condescending and probably unproductive. I say unproductive because it makes it less likely that they will respond to the BIG stuff if you are constantly harping on little stuff. You know, the old story about crying "wolf". This is exactly what happened with me and my second ex. When he tried to warn me about the OM, I thought "yea, right". I mean, it wasn't anything I hadn't heard a zillion times before. Lord knows how many hoops I jumped through over the years trying to "prove" my fidelity and responding to his every whim and insecurity. For what? Cause I slept with the guy I went to prom with ten years before I ever met my second H?<P>After awhile I was sick of defending myself, sick of the suspicion, sick of his anger, sick of feeling guilty for going to school. I felt like a caged animal and that there was nothing I could do to make him trust me. <P>I get mad sometimes because I feel like he never should have married me if he couldn't trust me. For a long time I felt like it was my fault, like I was this bad person and had to prove myself to him for some reason. I don't feel like that anymore.

TS,<P>Are you seeing why the "Head of Household" sets your teeth on edge so much? I hope so. Are also seeing that "respect" is the operative word here, not "Head of Household"?<BR>To me it seems you are throwing road blocks up with regard to your "theoretical" next man. I contend that for most men it is far easier to divide tasks, assume responsibility for those tasks, and respect the W that is doing hers. I also think it is easier for most women this way.<P>How the division takes place is far more flexible. Look at the answers you have gotten from the men on this forum.<P>I do think you are guilty of one crime TS. It is of taking two, perhaps three, data points and trying to predict a nonlinear trend. Shame on you. A trained engineer shouldn't do that. <P>Quite frankly, some of the things your say about your exH, I just cannot fathom. It is really not in my experience to do what he has done. So I do have a hard time, understanding where he is/was coming from and why you married him. When you post these events, my initial response is "What? She put up with that?" I just cannot see doing this to someone (at least consciously) or tolerating it from someone.<P>But I do sense that your tolerance of it has to do with your feelings and your past. These are changing. Interestingly you past is changing as well; in a peculiar way. You father as become the Dad you needed when you grew up. He can never give you back your childhood, but he is trying to give you something you needed from him, love and respect. Maybe it will help you as time goes on. I sure hope so.<P>Really, it is apparent that you have many things to work through. Yet, I do expect that you will do that and find the happiness you seek. I really wasn't kidding in my many earlier posts. I do expect that you will find the happiness you seek once you are out of school and heading down lives highway.<P>I would love to be there to say: "I told you so." Honestly, I wouldn't do that. But perhaps I just might stand there with a hugh smile on my face. <P>It will work out well for you TS. Have faith in yourself and people in general. Given a choice most people would rather do good than bad.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<P>

JL,<BR>My father's (and mother's) transformation has done wonders for me in many ways. First, I experienced how someone can honestly turn their life around, given enough time and effort. Second, his efforts and acknowledgement of our pain has helped all of us forgive and heal our hurts from that period in our lives. Everytime I get on the phone with them I tell them how much I love them. It is a wonderful thing. <P>Although you might find this hard to believe, my second ex treated me better than any man I had ever been with before. He took me places, we did fun things together. Heck, he was the first man who ever bought me flowers. I was 26 when I met him. The times he would cut me down (before we got married) seemed insignificant compared to all of these other wonderful things. I figured that every relationship had problems, and that I could prove myself to him over time. <P>However, his suspicions only grew over time. I kept trying harder and harder to prove myself, all the while thinking that I really must be a bad person, and that maybe I was doing something to deserve this treatment. It truly is the classic evolvement of abuse. Over time your self-esteem becomes completely eroded to the point where you believe you deserve it. To make things worse, I never had an example of a healthy relationship, so I figured that this is what "love" was about. That this was how life was supposed to be for women, more-or-less. <P>I went to counseling for a year by myself before I decided I wanted to go back to school. It was completely useless, IMO. This same counselor is the one who later told me I never should have confessed to my second ex.<P>Anyway, can you see why I'm not interested in dating? I've said before that I feel like I have to completely go back to square one when it comes to men. If there were a theoretical age when it comes to my relationships, I'd say I'm still an "infant". <P>Right now, I'm very careful to only associate with men who respect women. That's the best I can do right now.<P>When you say things will change for me after graduation, for the most part I agree with you. However, there are many things that will not change for a long, long time. Yes, I will be in a more secure position financially, but that never was my reason for being with a man. What won't change for a very long time is the way I relate, and so I'm forced to do the baby steps. When I got married, I had figuratively entered a class in Calculus without even learning how to multiply and divide. I'm going back to "math for daily living now"...<P>You know, JL, I don't think either of my exes were "bad" people. Like me, I suppose they were doing the best they could given the inadequate parenting they had too. My second ex learned from his dad that, if you couldn't get respect the legitimate way, then fear worked just as well. I learned from my dad that living in fear was tolerable, even the norm. I DID know that physical abuse was unacceptable, but was not aware of verbal/emotional abuse. Not only that, verbal/emotional abuse always preceeds physical abuse. My second ex was physically abusive to me twice during a two week period following my confession. That was when he decided to move out.<P>When you talk about the "head of the household", there is no doubt that both my father and his father were the "head of the household", but in a very sick way. Fear is a very good motivator. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 15, 2000).]