Hey Student,<P> Sorry to interrupt,........<P> You say you LOVE BoyToys?<P> I got one I'll send to ya! <P><BR> ~~Murph

Murph, <BR>Ah, you mean THE BoyToy? Nah. I learned my lesson about THOSE. I'd much rather have a MANToy! Any suggestions? <P>Jamie-Lee,<BR>You know it's all about attitude! It's not what you wear, or what size you are, but how you wear it and how you feel when you wear it. I'm no spring chicken (well, compared to the other "chicks" at GaTech) but I still felt pretty hot that day. It was lots of fun. Not something I do everyday, but I was in the mood then. The next day, I was back to my sweatpants and no makeup.<P>It is hard to believe that three weeks have passed already. I have a few questions for you that I'll save for later....<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 09, 2000).]

honey.west said:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>woman who will say it is easy, or that it is preferrable to having a two parent home<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Certainly it is not easy to raise children alone, and it is of course preferable to raise them in a two parent home. Unfortunately, there is no guarantee that the two parent home will stay that way. And the only thing worse than being raised by a single parent from the start is having one parent abandon you emotionally, having one parent morph into something completely foreign, someone who puts you at the bottom of their priority list, who only wants you around if you are perfect.<P>By having children with my H, I in effect doomed them to being raised by a single parent, AND to the pain of having their father withdraw almost completely from them. It would have been far better for them never to have known a father.<P>I read a review today of the movie, "Little Vampires," in which the parents turn into vampires. The reviewer said that movie is bad for young children because it frightens them so much to think about parents undergoing a transformation. Children need to be able to depend upon their parents - and it is far better to have one parent on whom you can depend than have two, when there is at least a 50% chance that one will wake up one morning a "vampire."

Hey Stu....<P>Will I need my Echo weedeater and leaf blower...I did get a pretty fancy Honda mower two years ago...

OK Stu, I understand your "perspective". <P>For the record, my son had a little "kitchenette" & he loved playing with it. And, that never bothered me. We didn't know what sex he was going to be until he showed up and I would have been equally happy with a girl (untill she turned about 13 or 14 ..... ).<P>What makes a kid special doesn't have anything to do with their sex, or the toys they play with. (Although I'll take a remote control monster truck over a Barbie pink Beetle ANY day ) What makes them special is the opportunity you have to help shape them into a kind considerate caring individual who will make this planet a better place, just for being here.<P>When all is said and done and my life is over, all I want to be remembered for is having raised my son to be a good man.<P><P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain and makes the sun come out again

My STBX always said he wanted me to take his lead. I had a real problem with it in that he never made sound decisions regarding almost anything. I also attribute my reluctance in following his lead to a degree of lack of respect for him. He never followed thru with anything, left everything undone or languish. He made many bad decisions and long lasting mistakes without forethought of their consequences (i.e., fathering two OC during our marriage) Anyone who can't figure out that having unprotected sex can result in disease or OC surely isn't someone I can respect or follow their lead.<P>My belief is that in a marriage one or the other partner should take the lead at a given time, but no one should be controlled or manipulated. I'm a firm believer of POJA in a marriage.<P>Jo<p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited December 10, 2000).]

Cooker,<P>Bravo! And that is all I'd want for any child, male or female.<P>Back to the adoption issue:<BR>For the record, I honestly have no gender preference myself. After doing research on the requirements for overseas adoptions, it became clear that the majority of children up for adoption were girls and the websites said so. <P>Supposedly our own population is 52% female. I'm not sure if that is due to more females being born or due to their longetivity. So having more females up for adoption in some countries may have nothing to do with sexist practices. This is not the case in China. I also am interested in China because they don't have a widespread problem with AIDS or drug and alcohol addiction. The majority of the children up for adoption come from the poorer rural regions, which is also true of some of the South American countries. Being heavily Catholic, there are some South American countries who will not let a single woman adopt. Some of them won't even allow adoption to a couple in which one of them has previously been divorced!<P>Also, the process is very quick right now for people who want children from China. There are lots of people going to countries like Romania and Russia, so I've read that it can take quite awhile. My advisor had their little girl home with them in less than three months after the application. <P>Now to the original topic:<BR>The reason why I'm opposed to the head of the household idea is because I think it limits discussion and input from both spouses. If I actually believed that my H would have the final say on everything just because he was the H, I wouldn't have much incentive to talk about anything. What would be the point? He's just going to do what he wants in the end anyway? Not only that, it infantilizes (is that a word? ) the other person. By removing decision making ability from the other spouse, they do not learn and grow. <P>Living under a dictatorship can be quite efficient. As we've all seen with our current presidential election, a democracy (i.e. POJA) can be quite messy and time consuming. However, I still think it is the best way to assure that both spouses have a stake in the relationship. <P>Furthermore, placing leadership in the hands of any person simply because they happened to be born with a certain set of genitals doesn't make sense to me. <BR>

Ok Student...<P>I do see your point on the adoption...I have only one counter point...given your current single status...Who would be you adopted childs strong male role model?<P>Don.t get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for single moms, however I truly feel that children need to have that father figure. I am not saying I am opposed to your idea, because anytime a child can be loved and nurtured is a great thing. Bringing a child to this great country of ours and giving them the opportunity to experience "freedom" is even better.<P>It looks as if the majority of us tend to agree on the head of household idea, <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html" TARGET=_blank>POJA</A> seems to be the best method.<P>Where do we each stand on taking a future husbands sir name?<P>I am old fashioned. I saw it as a great honor for my ex to share my name.<P>She used her maiden initial as her middle name.<P>Bill

Bill,<P>I lost my maiden name when I got married the first time, and I'll lose my stbx's name if I ever get married again. I'm keeping my married name now because of my kids. They want me to have the same last name they do.<P>Mitzi

Bill,<P>I agree that it is best for children to have role models from either gender. This is something I'm still trying to figure out. I have four friends who were raised by single mothers. One had the father die and the mother did not remarry. Another one's father completely abandoned them, and she is still feeling the effects. The third had a father that threatened them with a gun, and cheated on her mother. Her mother eventually did remarry when she was about 10 yrs old. The fourth one is a male friend. His mother and father never did marry and always lived in separate houses. They had a very amicable relationship, and he went to his dad's place after school. She also had other male friends who had children, and my friend was part of a playgroup network. In his case, he never went through the divorce hell. His father was always a good male friend apparently. <P>Of the four of these friends, the most well adjusted of all of them was the one whose father had died. This friend apparently has a happy and stabile marriage, has a child, graduated from MIT, and by all accounts seems to be a very happy person. The other two, like me, have had their share of hardships and seem to be having a harder time coping with life in general (again, like me). It is yet to be seen what happens with my male friend. He is too young to have gotten into too much trouble He is only about 25.<P>After all I've been through in life, I don't know if I'm capable of having a healthy intimate relationship with a man. It is almost like I have to go back to square one, which is why I'm celibate now and focusing on building friendships with men. I'm hoping that any future son or daughter will learn how to develop relationships (friendships or otherwise) that are based on mutual respect. I hope I can show them this through my "extended" family. That is the plan so far.<P>As far as the name goes...I could never change my name again. Me and my ex had an argument before we got married. I wanted to keep my name and he wanted me to take his. His name sounded nicer, so I took it. That probably should have been another indicator that he was more traditional than me. I had my name changed back in the divorce papers.<P>I understand why it is important to alot of people. It does tend to solidify the image of a "family unit". Having my name swapped so many times, though, I've started to associate my maiden name with my own personal identity. To me, a woman changing her name is symbolic. She agrees to give up her personal identity in favor of his, which is not a feeling I enjoyed, especially because the man is not expected to do anything equally symbolic to show his allegience to the partnership. <P>It is not something I think I can explain. Just try and imagine, Bill, walking around with a different name after all of these years. People who haven't seen you in a long time don't know what to call you. You have to learn how to write another person's name. Identification with your own family unit is lost (i.e. people thought I was french because my ex's name was french). I could go on.

TS,<P>I can see you point about the name thing...<P>I wouldn't want to have to go through that...<P>I don't see it as losing an identity...<P>If my Next wife loses her identity, I don't think I'd want her around too long, make sence? I mean I gave my ex the total freedom to be who she wanted to be. I tried to support her in all she did. I like a woman that knows who she is and wants to grow that, while I continue down life's path...<P>Should I meet a woman that I can see myself old and gray sitting in a rocking chair with, and she wants her own name instead of mine I honestly do not believe this will deter me from proceeding...<P>I too know a couple of well adjusted people that were only raised by their mothers, but I know a lot more that are pretty screwed up...<P>I guess it all depends on how they were taught to deal with life's terms...<P>Do you rake your grass clippings or mulch them into fertilizer?? <P>Bill

Bill,<P>I'm guessing some of those with single mothers may not be well-adjusted because their moms are bitter and hate men. I don't want any son or daughter of mine to fear an intimate relationship or stay out of one for the wrong reasons. <P>I don't know. After this divorce I had to really consider whether I was the type of person who was cut out for marriage. Part of the reason our marriage failed was due to mistakes and problems on both of our sides, but I think it was also due to my resentment of what was expected of me as a "wife". Both from him and from those around us. <P>All of a sudden, I was expected to morph from an independant person with my own goals and thoughts into someone who could only exist through the goals and thoughts of my husband. This was not the "deal" I agreed to when I got married, and I thought I was very clear about it from the beginning. <P>I thought it was very clear that I saw marriage as a partnership, where we both support each other's dreams, and we negotiate the tough spots together. If my ex even ONCE tried to tell me that the man should "call the shots" before we got married, I never would have married him. To this day, I have no idea why he believed I was that kind of woman. Maybe he just "assumed" that because I agreed to marry him that I was going to fall into the traditional role. Just like I "assumed" that my first H was going to be faithful because he decided to marry me. From what I can tell, both of them had ideas about lifestyle that they didn't share with me prior to marriage. In my first marriage, I didn't ask the hard questions. In my second marriage, he told me he would move for me if that is what it came to, and told me he would support my educational goals. So, I did everything I could (IMO) not to "assume" he would support me. He lied to me, or maybe he lied to himself. Who knows?<P>I'm sure this is mostly my perception (and who knows what reality is!!), but I haven't met a man yet that doesn't (at some level) hold some variation of the traditional concept for marriage. I take that back. I have met men who don't, but they usually don't believe in monogamy either, so they are out. I don't think the "traditional" roles are necessarily a bad thing. It appears to work for a whole lot of people. <P>I tried the open marriage thing with my first H, and couldn't do it. I tried the traditional route with my second H. Neither of these arrangements were what I felt I had agreed upon before marrying them, but I tried my best because of the commitment I made. My ex was a whole lot more untraditional than alot of guys I met because he didn't have any hangups about men's chores or women's chores. Maybe that is what blows me away the most. Here's a guy (my ex) who treated me equally in so many other ways, yet still expected me to just follow along and support his goals and not expect the same in return.<P>Of course, I didn't find that out until long after we were married and I had supported him for quite some time. That is why I'm so jaded. I'm thinking, what's the use? I'll just get taken for granted again. My ex hid his true beliefs for such a long time. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 10, 2000).]

Hi TS,<P>I have been trying to stay out of this "debate". I did try to post earlier and my long message wouldn't post, so I gave up with too much to do.<P>You said something in your last post <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> My ex was a whole lot more untraditional than alot of guys I met because he didn't have any hangups about men's chores or women's chores. Maybe that is what blows me away the most.<BR>Here's a guy (my ex) who treated me equally in so many other ways, yet still expected me to just follow along and support his goals and not expect the same in return.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Has it occured to you that in your endeavor to seek out the non-traditional man and focus on what men "don't do" that you have completely missed the important stuff? I mean the really important stuff to you as well as your exH. For all of the "sharing" for his moving (albeit without the level of enthusiasm you wanted), you had the affair. Whats more your non-traditional H could not handle it and would not work on the marriage.<P>Yet, if you read on this board, most of the men working on their marriages, trying to overcome W's infidelity are "traditional men". I don't know what the answer is, but I suspect you need to find it. I think you are focusing on the symptoms and not the real "facts". I don't know what the "facts" are in your case, but you need to find out what they are.<P>Now, of course you don't really need to do this since you are not remarrying. But I suspect for your pease of mind it might help. It is true with the "Head of the Household" thing. <P>Have you ever really known a man who was the head of the household as you seem to define it? I haven't in my entire 55 years ever met a man like that. I have met a few who "thought" they were, but a bit of observation always revealed, it was an illusion. From everything you have said your Father wasn't a head of the household, neither were either of your exH's. I think you are defining this role in the negative, because you preceive that it detracts from you rather than simply adding to the other person.<P>If I can ever get my other post to work, I will repost it.<P>Keep learning TS.<P>JL

TS,<P>You are not sucking me into another of these long arguements. No, you are not going to do it. <P>Ah Nuts!<P><B> I AM THE HEAD OF OUR HOUSE </B> Yes, I am. After 25 years there is no doubt I am the head of my household, what I say goes. My W even agrees. It really is that simple.<P>Upon thinking about it, though, I can't recall the last time I had to make a decision. Indeed, I don't ever recall having to make a decision. My wife is so agreeable, that every time a big issue comes up, she agrees with me. Indeed, I am amazed at how persuasive I am. <P>Yup! I am good, real good. <P>In fact, I cannot remember a really big important decision that when it came down to it, there was really a decision at all. I have found if I collect the data, like any good head of household should do, from other people, financial, from my W, that the data tells you which way to do. I have found that things just seem to happen in my household and I don't even have to say anything. Now that is the way to run things isn't it? <P>Quite frankly TS, I am a scientist. I could easily spend 20 hours aday, 7 days a week doing my research and running the business associated with it. I married a woman that was compentent and has similar tastes as I do, has similar views of raising children, because I knew that quite frankly my work demanded enormous time.<P>I suppose I am the head of the household, but quite frankly I would be fool not to pay attention to my W if she had a strong objection or even a mild objection to anything I wanted to do. I cannot read her mind but I believe she is the same way. We talk to each other constantly, we tell each other what is going on, what our schedules will be. With three kids 13 and over all very active, it takes 3 calenders to keep track of everyones comings and goings.<P>She is a stay at home Mom, although she does work for me parttime. I could not be married to a woman where I had to be the "Head of the Household". Quite frankly it is a ceremonial job in our house. I suppose I could run everyones life, but that would be counter productive to me. And probably everyone else.<P>In case you haven't noticed I do have strong opinions, I can be loud if necessary, and I can intimidate people physically ( I am a large man), but be the real "head of a household"? I cannot see the fun in it.<P>Frankly, I have always felt that men being the head of the household had more to do with power sharing. You see women run the house, they call the shots in sex, they now call the shots in having children. So I have always felt that woman have bestowed this position on men, to make them feel like they are part of the household. Some men I suppose, actually think they run the house. <P>However, a women would be nuts to really take over the job in my opinion. She is not likely to be significantly better than her H at all things, maybe she is and she probably gets what she wants anyway. If she really does run everything with little input from her H, then the marriage is probably doomed. Further, if the H doesn't feel he has "any" say in things, he will completely bow out, as TS likes to point out "sharing" household duties is not something men live for either.<P>Makes no difference to me what women decide. But I wouldn't ever marry one that thought they should be the "head of the household". The power imbalance would be too hugh in my mind. On the other hand, I view my position as "Head of the Household" as very ceremonial because quite frankly a decision that both my W and I don't agree on is not going to be made anytime soon.<P>You see TS I don't view women as the enemy. I view my W as a hugh asset. I value her opinions, Oh! we disagree about little things, or even big things like sex or affection, but things that have to do with the house and the children, not a chance.<P>Finally, being a product of a military family and alot of military training myself, I will tell you something. A really good leader very rarely has to issue direct orders. He/She selects the staff for their competence, trains the troops to know what the mission is and how to accomplish it and very rarely has to order anyone around. Everyone knows their job and they do it.<P>So after all of this I don't know how to answer your question. In most families I know about the person closest in touch with the problem or with the most experience makes the final call if a decision must be made and there isn't agreement.<P>Heck, if I know my W knows more about something than me I won't venture an opinion unless asked. She knows what she is doing.<P>Did I confuse things sufficiently to get a real debate going? <P>In someways I cannot relate to this question, perhaps I don't see it from my W's point of view, but I think I see our situation clearly.<P>JL<p>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited December 10, 2000).]

TheStudent,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm guessing some of those with single mothers may not be well-adjusted because their moms are bitter and hate men.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't think you should jump to the conclusion that their lack of adjustment is their mother's fault. What about rejection by their father? Why does the custodial parent always get blamed? <P>A long time ago I read of a man whose children were having psychological problems who actually had the gall to say that it couldn't be his fault, because, after all, he spent hardly any time with them as they were growing up.

boy oh boy<P>I'm tired......<P>I try to not get involved with TS's debates, not because I do or do not agree, but because it wears me out....<P>I don't mean any disrespect to anyone at all here, and I enjoy reading everyone's different opinions, but here's my take on all this.<P>I have so much going on in my life right now that I am trying to sort through, that 'fighting' with you guys who are all so precious to me is just not on.<P>I don't always agree with TS, but she is entitled to her opinions. And her feelings, and what she wants. Whether we think she will find what she is looking for is immaterial - aren't we all here to support each other. <P>I love a good debate usually, but just lately, (like the last year and a half), I don't have the energy for it. Sorry.<P>I'm going to make the exception here. I feel that no-one and both should be the head of the household. POJA all the way for me. I thought we had that, and we did on the big stuff like buying furniture, holiday destinations etc, but it was the small stuff that killed us. <BR>I have no idea where or when my next partner will be, I'm not looking, but it will have to feel right. I'm not going to make any big sweeping statements about what he has to be like, what he will have to say or do in any given situation, or how he will have to be, but if it feels right, and we mesh together, and we have each other's best interests at heart, then it has to be right. Right?????<P>What's that old saying. One for all, and all for one....<BR>Something like that.<BR>That's my new marriage policy.<P>love and hugs to you ALL.<P><BR>Jo<P>

JL,<BR>There was a bunch of stuff I was going to say, but me and you have been through it all before. I keep coming back and editing <P>I wish I was you. I wish I could have a nice job and a nice person to stay at home and raise my kids. But because I was born with an inny instead of an outie, I can't have that. You just take it for granted that you have those things, and you chalk it up to your relationship skills. Ok, I give you lots of credit for that. I really do, but you have to admit that having 100 million years of evolution on your side isn't bad either. It is still true (for the most part) that if a woman wants a family, she has to quit her job or put her career on the sidelines. I understand that alot of men make some career sacrifices as well, but not like the women do. <P>Some of my women friends who have stayed home lament about their lack of ambition, or whatever. I always tell them that they have lots of ambition, it is just directed in a different way than me. It is directed towards being a good mother and taking care of her family. I love my SAHF (that means, stay-at-home-friends). I just wish I could have someone as devoted as them (but male) stay-at-home and raise my kids, but that is not to be. <P>Nellie,<BR>The single mom I had in mind were ones in which the father was never in the picture from the beginning. Ones in which the children may be consistently deprived of male attention due to a woman's hatred of all men. Even though people probably believe I fall into that category, I don't think I do. The examples I listed from my friend's experiences tend to show that a bad fatherly influence is worse than no influence. <P>for bill,<BR>As long as my father lives, I will want my children to spend lots of time with him. I hope to have plenty of good male friends and lots of little boys for my children to play with. So, I can't seem to keep an intimate relationship together for whatever reason. That doesn't mean I can't be a good parent. <P>The way I've rationalized it is this...by adopting, I'm giving a child a home who may not have one. I'm capable both emotionally and financially of providing a safe, nurturing, stabile, home. <P><BR>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 11, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 11, 2000).]

I was going to write something else, but changed my mind.<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 11, 2000).]

TS,<P>I think you missed my point. I am the head of my household in my mind. In my W's mind, I think you find a different answer. In reality I have less input than the kids, sometimes. As for having it very easy and stress free, well I don't know about that. <P>I did do one thing right in my mind anyway. I waited until I was 31 to get married. School was almost finished and military service was behind me. In short after a fair amount of fooling around I knew who I was. Well, sort of. <P>I also had an advantage over you. My family (Mother and Father) trained me well. And that I really cannot over emphasize. You weren't so fortunate.<P>Oh! and like K, I did learn to sew, by the time I was four. My Grandmothers were both seamstresses and they taught me at an early age how to sew. Also learned to cook at an early age. In fact, both my W and I are pretty self-sufficient. You can find her at Home Depot alot. <P>As I said I don't really know how to answer your Head of the Household question. You see my experience has been that successful marriages, somehow really don't address that issue, because it isn't an issue.<P>Hope this clears things up abit.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<P>PS: I think one of the things that may have thrown you off is that I had to remove all of the smiley faces to get the response to post. And then it wouldn't let me edit them back in. I am puzzled by that as well.<p>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited December 11, 2000).]

Just Learning,<P>I found it interesting that you mentioned that you had waited until you were 31 to marry. My H was 30 when we married - and he told our daughter that he had made a mistake marrying me, but he was young at the time...then again, perhaps he was getting our marriage confused with his first marriage, when he was 21.