Hi all,<P>Not sure how many of us are Catholic out there, but if you are, one additional issue we have to deal with is annulments - that is if we ever want to marry "within" the church again.<P>Over the past few months I have gotten all kinds of advice - usually conflicting advice. It really started to bother me - even from one priest to another there were differences of opinions.<P>So I did what I always do - I bought a book (I love to read ). It is called "100 Answers to Your Questions on Annulments" - Edward N. Peters. It is so worth the investment (only about $20). <P>It is based and contains references to Canon law (Catholic law). Very easy to read and answers all the questions that people seem to love to debate :<P>- Do both parties have to agree to an annulment? NO.<P>- How long does the process usually take? ~ 1 year.<P>- How much does it usually cost to file? Varies from Free to about $1,000 (depends on what diocese you live in)<P>A very good read for those of us who need answers to these questions.<P>Sure I am a little ahead of myself since our divorce really has just gotten started. But I felt like my wife has been "quietly" holding it over my head as leverage for the divorce (she is under the impression that BOTH parties have to agree and participate to get an annulment). Learning that is a misconception to me was well worth the $20. With this knowledge I feel even a little stronger.<P>For if we do get divorced (I still pray we don't), but if we do, an annulment is something that is very, very important to me, and she knows that. A year and a half ago she converted to Catholicism, but since she left she has "left the Church" - why? Not positive, but I do believe it has a lot to do with guilt about wanting a divorce...<P>Check the book out at <A HREF="http://www.Amazon.com" TARGET=_blank>www.Amazon.com</A> <P>Mike<p>[This message has been edited by SoTired2000 (edited December 08, 2000).]

Hi Mike...<P>I'm not too surprised that you're not getting much in the way of any response...<P>...the number of Catholics here is quite small... and yes I am one too.<P>Down the road, as my divorce becomes final...<BR>...should be around December 20th...<BR>...that will be my time for me to move to Plan B...<BR><B>and</B>... the beginning for me to file for an Annulment.<P>The question of annulment comes up rarely on these boards...<BR>...but once...<BR>...in a request of some other MB-er<BR>...I mentioned a web page I built...<BR>...you may find it interesting... <A HREF="http://users.erols.com/herczeg/Annulment.html" TARGET=_blank>http://users.erols.com/herczeg/Annulment.html</A> <P>It references two other useful books I also have in my <A HREF="http://pages.ivillage.com/mb_nsr/MB_BKS.html" TARGET=_blank>Books</A> post.<P>I really believe that...<BR>...as Catholics, we have an extraordinary mechanism to complete Plan B...<BR>...that non-Catholics don't.<P>We can complete the "loss of love"...<BR>...as we go through (one final time)...<BR>...those aspects of our (non-sacramental) marriages... that makes it clear to us... (and others too!)...<BR>...that love does not exist...<BR>...and more importantly...<BR>...our spouses... lacked the understanding of what it means/meant to be sacramentally married.<P>One side note...<BR>I actually helped my W through the annulment she got before she and I got married.<BR>Now that I have been in contact with her first X... my stepson's father...<BR>...and have access to what she filed with the local Tribunal...<BR>...it has been made evidently clear to me...<BR>...my W has never understood what a sacramental marriage was really all about...<BR>......and the lies on her paperwork(annulment) were just one more grotesque aspect of how she used people (husbands)...<P>She does plan to marry the OM (outside the church)<P>I hope to hear more from you...<BR>...and I'll be looking for your posts.<P> <P>Jim

Well, I'm Catholic too, but since I got married in a Baptist church, and she never converted, and annullment doesn't seem like the route to go for me. I'm also not sure I want to declare that about my marriage yet. <P>Almost all of my marriage was very good (I thought), right up until the moment she told me she didn't love me anymore & left.<P>Take care...<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain and makes the sun come out again<p>[This message has been edited by c00ker (edited December 09, 2000).]

{c00ker/nick},<P>The fact that your W was a Baptist, I assume she was baptized...<P>With that, you may want to check with your priest... (or better yet... your Tribunal)...<BR>...the Chruch in general will look upon most consummated marriages by baptized (Catholic or non-Catholic Christians) as valid.<P>If remarriage in the Church is important to you...<BR>...check it out.<P>Some additional concepts that one should consider are: <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Annulment/Decree of Nullity</B><P>-----------------------------------<P>Marriage Is Indissoluble. The Church teaches, as does Jesus in Mt 19:9, that every Christian marriage is indissoluble except by the death of one of the spouses. No power on earth can dissolve a ratified and consummated union of two baptized Christians (one in which vows have been validly exchanged and which has been later consummated by intercourse).<P>A valid marriage requires the proper intention at the time that the vows are exchanged. The parties must intend to make a marriage, which by definition is a life-long communion open to new human life. These are called the unitive and procreative meanings of marriage. If either of the two meanings of marriage (an indissoluble union and procreation) are excluded by the will of either the man or the woman no marriage is made on the wedding day (canon 1096).<P>For example, someone who has no intention of being faithful cannot make a marriage since at the very time of exchanging vows he or she precludes the life-long fidelity that is intrinsic to marriage. This is often demonstrated right at the beginning, or shortly thereafter, by infidelity. Or, someone who intends to exclude the possibility of children does not validly marry. (Those who cannot have children due to age or infertility are NOT meant here, but only those who could bear children but intend to avoid this marital responsibility completely.)<P>It should be noted that if a valid marriage is made on the wedding day later infidelity or a contraceptive will would not invalidate it. It is only when the will of either party in making the marriage contradicts the Plan of God from the beginning of marriage that it is invalid. The Church accepts every marriage as valid until proven otherwise, however (canon 1060).<P>What a decree of Nullity Is. An annulment, properly called a Decree of Nullity, is a finding by a Church tribunal that ON THE DAY VOWS WERE EXCHANGED at least some essential element for a valid marriage was lacking, such as, one of the parties did not intend lifelong fidelity to the other person or excluded children entirely. Another example would be that one of the parties was incapable of marriage (due to some constitutional weakness, such as mental illness or some psychological condition that prevented making the marital commitment - gross immaturity, homosexuality, etc.). <P>None of these conditions are assumed they must be proven. A Decree of Nullity does NOT dissolve the marriage, it cannot. It is a reasoned judgement that one never existed, and as such is capable of human error. If the tribunal is fastidious to Church law and theology and the couple and their witnesses are honest, the decision can be followed in good-faith, including a new marriage. If someone is ABUSING the process through deceit, however, it would be a very grave sin for that person. A person who innocently enters a second marriage would not be guilty of sin, but the person who abused the process to fraudulently obtain a decree in order to remarry would commit adultery by remarrying.<P>An "annulment" does NOT concern whether the marriage was a happy one, whether one of the spouses LATER became unfaithful, or LATER decided not to have children, but only their INTENTION on the wedding day. If a marriage was made THAT day it is a life-long bond, irrespective of what happened later in the marriage. To "annul" a marriage based on "failure to achieve communion" or some other factor not recognized by the Holy See (as has been done) is not a decree of nullity at all but a divorce. Such decisions are a source of grave scandal in the Church and are both canonically and morally invalid.<P>The Tribunal Process. The process of obtaining a Decree of Nullity entails submitting the facts of the marriage, with supporting witnesses, to the diocesan marriage tribunal. Either party can do this. Then after a evaluation of these facts a judgment on the validity of the marriage is made. A second court, usually a neighboring diocese, must verify the judgment and it must be approved by one's bishop. Whatever decision is made, it may be appealed to the Roman Rota (the Holy See's court for matrimonial cases). <P>Since this is a voluntary process most dioceses have a fee to cover administrative costs. If this fee is a hardship an individual should ask that it be waived.<P>Marriage After a Decree. If a Decree of Nullity is given the couple are free to marry, unless the condition that led to the invalidity (e.g. lack of intention, mental illness, incapacitating immaturity) still exists. Then the person who has that condition is still incapable of marriage, but the other person may marry.<P>Internal Forum. Sometimes it is suggested to individuals or couples that they can resolve marital issues concerning a first marriage in the "internal forum." This means essentially in the confessional or in the privacy of their conscience. Someone who is divorced and remarried will be told that they do not have to seek a Decree of Nullity to validate the present marriage, rather being convinced in their own conscience that their first marriage was invalid they can return to the sacraments. This is not, however, the case. Marriage is not a private affair but a social institution, one safeguarded by the Church according to the will of Christ. The Holy See has ruled out the internal forum solution as a valid way of resolving marital validity questions. Such issues must be submitted to the Church's canonical processes (a marriage tribunal).<P>Questions? Anyone who is uncertain about his or her marital status, wants to return to the sacraments after divorce and re-marriage (not having first obtained an annulment) or desires greater clarity concerning such issues should seek the advice of their diocese's Tribunal. The complexity of these issues requires individual attention, such as cannot be provided by a Forum such as this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>(found at <A HREF="http://www.ewtn.com/expert/expertfaqframe.asp?source=/ewtn/experts/conference.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.ewtn.com/expert/expertfaqframe.asp?source=/ewtn/experts/conference.htm</A> )<P> <P>Jim

I don't know much about the Catholic beliefs<BR>but I know that in the Bible the only reason<BR>given to allow for divorce is adultry..it says nothing about anyone's intent when they <BR>married..just that it happened.

{ThornedRose}...<P>There was a decent discussion on this point too...<BR>Check out... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/004131.html" TARGET=_blank>FA: I found my bible...</A><P>It was interesting.<P> <P>Jim