<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gsd:<BR><B>Gnome: <BR>Will you ever marry again? If so, what would you do ten years from now if your ex came back?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That is my worst nightmare. Fortunately, I am in a position to make sure that doesn't happen. <P>I am not the type that likes to say "never". I have changed a lot during my lifetime, and no doubt I will continue to change. But for who I am today I simply can't imagine remarrying, and the amount and type of change necessary for me to become the sort of person who <I>could</I> remarry seems pretty extreme.<P>About the only way I could see it happening is if my wife were to marry someone else and it looked to me like a successful match. But I can't imagine <I>that</I> happening unless my wife were first to conquer her inner demons. And in that case I think it's more likely that she'd come back to me. I was about as good a husband to her as anyone could have been, and even when she left me she knew how hard I tried. (Now she's essentially accusing me of abuse, but that's fog for you...)<BR>

Jayhawk,<P>My friend. From your posts a few weeks ago I thought that finally our roads were to go different ways, but here you are back to where I am. Your post are my sentiments to the letter. I don't even have to refer to any specific line in your post because they ALL apply to me as well.<P>Unfortunately I don't think the anger will ever come to me. Because I don't have it in me. I hate her actions, but I am far from hating the woman. She still is so special to me. Am I having problems "moving on"? Some may say "yes". I say "no". I read a great book so many months ago about a couple named the Carpenters. It is a story about a woman who was in a car accident and lost her short term memory going back about a year. Unfortunately, within that year she had met and married her husband. The bottom line is that she totally forgot who he was. Throughout her rehab, he was there day in and day out. There were often times where she would get so fed up she would tell him "I don't love you - I don't even know you - Why don't you leave". This went on for about a year then it happened. While she still to this day does not remember meeting him the first time, she slowly fell in love with him all over again!<P>Before the book was published, the couple had been interviewed on shows like 20/20, the Today Show, even Opera. At the end of the book in the last chapter, the husband talks about the interviews he and his wife have encountered. One question that is always asked is "why" - "why did he stick it out and stay with his wife when she acted and said things that would make even a strong man leave". His answer is always four words "I MADE A VOW". He goes on to say that leaving was NEVER an option. Even if his wife chose to walk away, he felt deep in his heart that he would always love her. When I read those words it hit me like a ton of bricks. That is exactly how I feel about my wife.<P>I made a vow. I can't change her mind. I can't make her come back. But I can honor my vow. For how long? I don't know. But it has already been 11 months and still I feel the same. Sometimes I can't understand why people label someone like me as sad and unable to accept reality. Because I believe in something so much does not make me a lesser person. No where in our vows did I say "for better or for worse, or until my wife decides to leave". She can do what she wants with her vows, but my vows are sacred.<P>On a side note she called me this AM to talk about the divorce and such. I want her to ammend her filing to a no-fault divorce and she is having trouble understanding why. I have not had any opportunity to talk about "us" in several months. Then near the end of the call, God gave me a break. She said "you know my pastor's daughter just filed for a divorce 2 months ago in California and it is over already, I don't know why our state is so difficult". I unloaded with both barrels. I said: <P>"I believe it is because our state and the people of our state have a high regard for the institution of marriage! They put in the 18 month waiting period because they know that often people will change their minds - not that that applies to you. They realize that divorce is not always the answer. They know that divorce often has long lasting and deep consequences and repercussions. They want to be sure that the parties to a divorce know exactly what they are doing".<P>Needless to say there was silence on the other end of the phone. Your wife and mine sound so much alike. Kind of like they can simply put "however many years" of a relationship behind them - no problem. And if they can, I guess that is great for them. But what a bad lesson they are taking from our marriages. How many times in the future will they be married and decide to "run" again?<P>Like you said in your posts, there were no "serious" problems or issues. Basically my marriage had problems that I am finding most marriages have - even the good ones. That in and of itself helps me to realize that while I did mess up over the past years, it was nothing on the scale to warrant a divorce.<P>Finally, I would never "ask" for an apology from her. I wouldn't need one. In some ways I am actually thankful she did what she did. I see how much I have grown, learned and bettered myself over the past year and a half. And if she ever did want to talk about another try with us, I firmly believe that unless I have already given my heart to a new woman, I owe it to her, myself and to God to at least try again. I am not sure exactly what "try" would entail - That could only be determined if and when it does.<P>Keep your chin up. Don't feel like you are alone in this, for we both are thinking the same (or very similar).<P>God Bless,<BR>Mike<P>BTW: The name of the book I read is: The Vow; The Carpenter's Story. A great read! Highly recommended for everyone here. If for nothing else than to prove that there are "good" guys out there and sometimes tradgedies do have happy endings!<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> WIFFT:<BR>What is your deal with teachers? I sense a hidden animosity there? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Seriously, and this is not to be taken personally by anyone, but i dislike the characteristics of two careers in particular,<BR>the legal profession and the teaching profession.<P>The legal profession controls the system, and often times throws the responsibility of the final decision to someone else, the judge. so he can have a hair across his a$$ on a your particular day, and you are screwed, as well as a host of other influences. Fair? hardly. the potential for abuse is huge, I have seen it, and they can argue away a person's savings, then settle. Sorry, they are a collection of debate egos who love to win an argument. And have an excuse for not winning, its was the judges decision, sorry!<P>The teaching profession is similar in that is it the F the teacher's fault or the student's fault. If its the student's fault, the teacher has a job with little outcome responsibility. And since the age difference and intelligence difference in inherent in the job, its very easy to say anyone can teach, just due to the inherent intelligence difference between the kid and the adult.<P>There is implied authority, not earned authority, there is total control, not monitored and negotiated control in the classroom. etc.<P>I could go on and on, but this will suffice.<P>I have seen a ton of great teachers, and a ton of piss poor teachers. and alot of the piss poor teachers are difficult to get rid of.<P>tom<BR>

Jayhawk - your story is my story also. My exH did not want to try to work on our problems. In his expert opinion, counseling would not help our problems. He "fell in love" with a younger co-worker, told her he was unhappy in his marriage (something he never told me), and decided he would leave me clues so that I would confront him about his affair (which I did). He told me later that he thought once I confronted him that I would tell him that I wanted a divorce and therefore he would not be the bad guy. <P>I messed up his plans because I told him that I did want to try and reconcile, work on our problems and that I would do anything to save the marriage. He had already made up his mind, made all the decisions for us and did not once involve me in these decisions. He made all these decisions for us via the e-mail - he told me three weeks after d-day that he thought we would be happier not being married - that our 11yo D did not deserve an unhappy father who lives out-of-state from us. He said he had to do this via e-mail because it would be too teary of a phone call for him - What a BABY - he even told me at one point not to call him at his apartment - it was too hard for him to talk to me there - that I was to call him only at work. <P>Anyway it sure feels weird to live with someone for 12 years and come away with the conclusion that you never really knew them.<P>Good luck to his new wife - she will have her hands full with this one.

"Sometimes I can't understand why people label someone like me as sad and unable to accept reality. Because I believe in something so much does not make me a lesser person. No where in our vows did I say "for better or for worse, or until my wife decides to leave". She can do what she wants with her vows, but my vows are sacred."<P>I understand.<P>What I didn't say in my earlier post is that I cried when he apologized. He didn't ask to see me when he talked to me that night. <P>About two weeks after talking to him on the phone, I e-mailed him and told him I still loved him. No response. He called me a few months after that, which is when I found out that he actually did get that e-mail. He had moved out of the state by then. I told him again that I loved him (that was about a year ago). Told him again this summer in an e-mail. I don't even know if he has gotten my e-mail. You'd think he'd at least have the courtesy to e-mail me back and say "please stop e-mailing me", but he won't even do that. Maybe he thinks he's doing me a favor. Who knows? I called his sister's house last week. I really was curious to see how he was doing. Not to tell him AGAIN, but just to talk. I found out he moved back to the area I'm looking at moving to after I graduate. I left her my phone number. Of course, he didn't call me. It didn't really surprise me, and I can't say it really bummed me out that much. If anything, I'm disappointed that he doesn't have the courage to tell me not to call him or write him. Both times I talked to him he said he wanted me to keep in touch and didn't want me to "fall off the face of the earth". Those were his exact words. <P>I think it is mean to leave someone hanging. It is even more mean when they give you some indication that contact is warranted. I won't do it to anyone. In this past year, I've had to say goodbye to two "friends". I told them exactly why I had to say goodbye and wished them well. <P>And you know, my feelings for my ex is not a desperate kind of feeling either. It is just a simple fact. Like the sun rises everyday. <P>Every once in awhile I toy with the idea of getting married again and I just don't see it. On my way to school tonight I was thinking about all of the things I wanted to do with my life now. Not once did I think about marriage (to someone else) or even dating. <P>I do get mad though. Really mad. Mad at myself for throwing a big wrench in things. Mad at him for so many awful things he did and said that last year. I just don't understand that part. <P>There are times I wish I could just shut the door on my marriage, but it is just not me. I'm not waiting for any magical event to happen. I'm not waiting for him to come back anymore. Not really. I do believe strongly in cause and effect, though. His lack of courage in this area will not serve him well in the future.

WFIIT:<P>It sounds to me like you have issues. Your W is a teacher so therefore you have a problem with the teaching profession. Any chance your W's lawyer has got you where it hurts too? Well, I do take offense to your comment. I have taught highschool, college, and adults. I take my job very seriously and it is part of who I am. Don't make sweeping statements until you have worn those shoes. You don't have a clue the work and dedication that is involved in being a good teacher. <P>Of course there are bad teachers...there are bad accountants, finance people, brokers, and counselors...not to mention lawyers and judges. <P>As far as the legal profession goes...there are some very good legal people out there...even in family law. I know of serveral divorce attorneys who donate, that's right donate their time and give free legal workshops on divorce. There are some men and women who can't afford the consultation fee. They aren't promoting divorce...sometimes it is just necessary.<P>Sorry you are so bitter...and you are...it comes through loud and clear. Maybe you should look up a counselor or do you have a problem with that profession too?<BR>

WIFFT-<BR>Considering your background with the personality types, I can see how you get your prejudices. However, sweeping generalizations about certain professions is a bit harsh. Certain professions do require certain qualities, which is what I think you find offensive. However, not all teachers go into the profession because they are naturally controlling or that they have some strange superiority complex. The best teachers are generally ESTJ types, according to my research. That contrasts with your type, I know. (INTP, right?)<P>I do agree, however, that it difficult to get rid of a bad teacher, but that is one of the great pitfalls of the profession. But the problem is the belief that "anyone can teach." I suppose some do think that and that is why they get into the profession. But having knowledge and age does not make someone a good teacher. <P>As far as the responsiblity goes, that is the catch 22. I think you have said once before that if the student gets an A, the teacher takes credit for it; if the student fails, however, she blames the student. I do think this is a bit extreme. <P>My problem with the teaching profession? (Yes, I have one.) I think it destroys the creative process. I teach everything from creative writing to journalism to layout and design trends in my English and yearbook classes. Unfortunately, the mentality of most teachers is an overwhelming focus on rote material, knowledge, and structure. I am all for structure, but the students are so concerned with the margins they forget to write something GOOD in between them. <P>Sorry to digress.

gsd<P>If someone is understands pesonality type then they usually don't have prejudices. One of the first things you learn about MBTI is that no type is better than another. Reading a book on type doesn't make you an expert to spout off about Extroverts being inferior to introverts. That is crap. Sorry. I do agree that ESTJ's statistically make the best elementary teachers. <P>I agree that not everyone can teach. Anyone who has sat in a classroom knows this. Yet, there are some teachers who inspire, who motivate, who virtually can change the course of a life. I doubt those people went into the profession of teaching because they are controlling and want to feel superior. <P>I know in my classes I try hard to show my students how to expand their minds, not to judge or sensor but look at things from everyside, try new things and explore the gift of life we are all given.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoTired2000:<BR><B>I made a vow. I can't change her mind. I can't make her come back. But I can honor my vow. For how long? I don't know. But it has already been 11 months and still I feel the same. Sometimes I can't understand why people label someone like me as sad and unable to accept reality. Because I believe in something so much does not make me a lesser person. No where in our vows did I say "for better or for worse, or until my wife decides to leave". She can do what she wants with her vows, but my vows are sacred.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is exactly how I feel, and what I believe. A lot of people have looked at me funny when I try to explain that a marriage is not a contract; it's a pair of unilateral covenants. My wife apparently feels that by breaking her vows, she somehow releases me from mine. But I don't see it that way at all.<P>I do have an answer for the question of how long I can honor my vows: for as long as I am recognizably myself.<P>Unconditional love can be rejected, but it can never be taken back.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:<BR><B>My wife apparently feels that by breaking her vows, she somehow releases me from mine. But I don't see it that way at all.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm sure my wife thought the same thing. In my hurt and anger, I thought I agreed. Now I feel more like you do, but I'm already involved. I <B><I>must</I></B> find a way to work out how torn I now am between a great new relationship, and a past one I can't even get the time of day from anymore (see my post from earlier today: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002027.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002027.html</A> ).<P>

Guys, it is a generalization, I know that, it is ALSO MY OPINION, IT IS MY EXPERIENCES that i have seen FROM THE INSIDE. in a boarding school, it is 24x7, having lived in high school boys and girls dormitories for almost 10 years.<P>I was primarily challenging the outcome resonsibility aspect, and which should say to everyone that I put outcome responsibility as a very high value, regardless of the work, the pay, the time, or the location.<P>I am not singling out any teachers in particular, neither am i singling out any lawyers. I don't even know who my X's lawyer is, i have never heard from her. Yes, I have made some frustrating generalizations using the MBTI personality types, and i know that it doesn't hold water.<P>These are my general frustrations and opinions about the professions. It is NOT directed at anyone, as I said in the post!<BR>I think there are some great teachers, I have met some, and they are exceptional at the graduate school level. It takes alot of hard work to be good at any profession, i don't discount that. I was challenging the outcome responsibility of the professions.<P>If you take your job as your number 1 identity, then I can see where you would be offended. However, I may offend someone with my opinion, but i responded to a question, with my opinion.<P>Remember, freedom of speech is not about political correctness, it is about honesty! And if the world needs to go around not saying anything in order not to offend anyone possibly, then we don't get very far down in the issues. Right TS?<P>Both are needed to make this society go. It just means I don't happen to look fondly upon the professions as one I like to hang out with at the end of the day.<P>Yes, I have issues, if issues are opinions. It does not mean that I won't go to teachers, doesn't mean I don't like teachers, it means that in my world, i don't hold that profession in high regard. You can add insurance companies to the list if you wish, but that is just me.<P>It is MY OPINION, I WAS ANSWERING a question, which I know would be a controversial answer, however, I also make no bones about not liking the professions.<P>So do I have to like all professions?<BR>I have friends that are in those professions.<BR>I don't share with them the teaching experience or the legal experience, but other experiences which make them friends. I am a teacher in my careers, on my kids soccer team, not in a school setting, but in a development position for my subordinates.<P>So if you want to discuss teaching issues with me, i am more than willing, but that is not what we have in common, and therefore, not why we are "friends."<P>lonely soul, there is not better personality than another, there are more compatible combinations than others, that would be my point, or rather my frustration. Your teaching style sounds like the kind I use when I teach my subordinates.<P>gsd, i think you understand my point, and I certainly enjoy your posts, especially fairytales than turn Grimm.<P>sorry to be long winded,<BR>off my soap box, but realize what my what is my hot button.<P>tom

I don't dispute with anyone's opinions. I don't identify my whole self with my profession. Everyone is very much entitled to their opinion, but sometimes WIFTT you seem to find fault with everyone whose opinion differs from yours. Just my opinion.<P>As far as the MBTI stuff goes...there is none...zero...absoulutely no documented proof that one type is more combatible to another. NO PROOF. I believe you said your ex was an ESTJ. You could meet 10 different people of that type and they would all be different. My ex is an ESTP and the man I was seeing is the same. The two are completely different. Those four letters have to do with where you get your energy, how you take in information, how you make your decisions, and how you set your life up. Type is also only for those individuals who are, for the most part, mentally healthy. Someone who is bi-polar, manic, etc would not benefit from MBTI. J<P>Just my two cents.

Personally speaking here, I <B>like</B> teachers. If you do it wrong, they make you keep doing it over and over until you get it right <p>[This message has been edited by Jayhawk 93 (edited January 24, 2001).]

Good for you Jayhawk. Just to clarify things...I teach...writing...I also am a career counselor. That is what I do for a living. I am also a friend, a daughter, a mom. I donate my time to adolecent boys...I go camping, I go white water rafting and I also take time for Seniors. I am a published writer and am never too busy for anyone if they need me, adult or child. I am good at what I do because I can relate to people.; all kinds of people. After all, I don't have all the answers.

Lonely Soul,<P>you are correct, you could line them up and they would all look differently, but they may have some similar tendencies and hot buttons, etc. The groups wouldn't be groups or different if they didn't have different tendencies based up on their makeup. They are different, whether or not I could get along with one designation than another, i would tend to disagree, proof, probably none, anecdotal evidence, i bet there is plenty. over on the EN board, they would agree with me.<P>However, after reading two different authors on the subject, and reading the references to interpersonal relationships between me, INTP, and X, ESFJ, I would say the material is dead on accurate. It did say that we could form a very strong bond IF we shared the same values. Well, we did in the beginning, but not at the end. So the book did describe ways to succeed, but the hot buttons, etc were correct.<P>I wouldn't say fault, I would say different opinion, which disagrees, meaning i have a very strict outlook which is designed to rely on independence, bottoms up, hard work to achieve your goals, independent thought and learning styles, if you don't have an answer, you exhaust all resources AVAILABLE to find the answer yourself, person or no person, teacher or no teacher.<P>the ultimate job is day trading, if you don't make it, there is no one else to blame, and its is one of the hardest careers around. Your output is measured, and responsibility is sole.<P>so i could agree that I find fault with some people's viewpoint, if it is trying to persuade mine to be less of the above. If it is the liberal touchy feely, lack of responsibility viewpoint, i don't buy into it very easily, although I will give it some thought, and may agree that it works in certain conditions.<P>tom

WIFTT<P>We could debate this forever, but I won't. You say you find fault with some people's views...okay, so it is okay that they may mind fault with yours. Everyone has their own perspective on things. Values haven't a thing to do with personality. Values are something we learn.<P>I bet you think I'm one of those soft, liberal touchy feely kind of people. NOT. One of the things my type likes to do is debate...just for the sheer fun of it. <P>I agree with your views on work...but not your selection of work. I don't believe Day Trading is any more rewarding than doing Divorce Counseling. Not to me. To you, I'm sure the counseling would be viewed as touchy feely. Did you know that N's often are better counselors than F's...because they can separate themselves easier, so burn out isn't a problem? <P>I still find fault with your views on MBTI...if you are that interested you should go to a class and learn more. I have read more than a dozen books, been through the training at Columbia U and passed the certification. MBTI is used a lot in career counseling and couples counseling, and of couse, team building. Did you know that over 65% of women are F's and that over 70% of the population are S's? There are no hot bottons you speak of. Yes, the types are different, but it is important to remember the MBTI was designed to help people understand themselves, so they could understand others better. It is completely unethical to use this tool as a prereq for hiring someone, dating someone, etc.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lonelysoul:<BR><B><BR>It is completely unethical to use this tool as a prereq for hiring someone, dating someone, etc.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>With this I agree--and BTW, I am not offended, WIFTT (can I just call you Wift for short? ) I think the tool (of types) should be used more for understanding yourself instead of labeling another. Mainly for the reason Lonely mentioned: when you deal with bipolars, manics, and other things the types are skewed. I am sure the test (and that book you refer to) was created for the purpose of labeling and understanding OTHERS. But I think when it comes to intimate relationships (and labeling people you do not know and have never met--ie an entire profession), I think you may be overstepping your bounds. <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lonelysoul:<BR><B>It is completely unethical to use this tool as a prereq for hiring someone, dating someone, etc.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I have a problem with this statement. MLK wanted people to be judged by the contents of their characters. MBTI doesn't do precisely that, but it's really fairly close. If someone is not really suited to be a cop, I don't want them on the street with a gun they either won't ever use, or are trigger-happy with. Same for any other occupation. Nor do I want people who are entirely incompatible saying "I do". It's messy for society.<P>I'd perhaps say it's an imperfect tool to use as a prerequisite, but people and organizations are entitled to make choices based on imperfect and incomplete knowledge. Nobody has the luxury of doing otherwise.<P>Would I put someone through one of these before I started dating them? Of course not. And I might call someone silly if they did it. But certainly not <I>unethical</I>.

Not only is it unethical to use the MBTI as a hiring tool; it is illegal as well. MBTI will not indicate whether or not you are trigger happy or if you are complusive or anal or anything else. Where are you folks getting your information? First of all the MBTI isn't a test...it is an assessment. It indicates a person's prefrences; not whether or not they are a danger to society. Why would a police officer take the MBTI unless he had already been hired and the police department was interested in team building. Using the MBTI as a hiring prerequisite is illegal. It is discrimination. <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lonelysoul:<BR><B>Using the MBTI as a hiring prerequisite is illegal. It is discrimination. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Which protected characteristic does it impermissibly discriminate upon?<P>