I had a counseling appt a couple weeks ago<BR>and the kids said they wanted to go in the next time I went..so tonite I let them go in<BR>and talk with the counselor as well..<P>she was asking them what they wanted to talk about and they said mom and dad's divorce..<BR>but they really didn't talk about that..<BR>my 8 yr old said she gets stomach aches whenever she goes to her dad's..(something I didn't know) but she said she's afraid to go over to her dad's even though she wants to go see him..but she's afraid of him because he drinks so much and he gets angry when he's drinking..the counselor asked her if she's been able to talk to him and tell him how she feels, she said, No, I'm afraid too, I'm afraid he'll get mad..(I hurt so much that they are afraid of him, I have tried to tell him this before but he would change the subject to me, and everything they don't like about me) then she asked the 6 year old how he feels and he said about the same thing..<BR>and how dad gets mad at him for not finishing his dinner, and how he yells at him to eat..<BR>when he doesn't want to, and she asked if there were any other reasons they were afraid of him.they said he gets mad and puts holes in the wall, she asked them if they knew why he was mad one said he was mad at them, and the other two said no, he was mad at mom, said she was somewhere she wasn't supposed to be, and doing something she wasn't supposed to be doing (I had gone to a girl friends wedding)but, she asked them if they would like it if someone else would talk to their dad for them..and they were kinda hesitant at first then said yes, they would like that..she says it's cause they are afraid of how he will react to them because they told someone else how they feel..well..long story short..my 8 yr old called her dad tonite and the counselor had apparently already called him tonite..and all he could say was.."I'm sorry your afraid of me" <P>I don't know yet if it's registered w/ him..but, I hope that it did..and that he will take it to heart..because to be honest..<BR>he scares me when he's drinking too..if he can put a hole in the wall because he's angry at me..how much more would it take till<BR>he hit me instead???? I just hate they are so afraid..they also said they worry that something will happen to me while they are with him and they would have to live w/ him all the time..and they wouldn't like that because I wouldn't be there to help them if he was drinking and got mad..<P>I wonder if he even realizes that by his telling them he's mad at me and puts a hole in the wall..how that must make them feel..about what if he gets mad at me like that..what would he do to me???? just makes me sad...

Hi ThornedRose,<P>gosh I'm sorry.<P>Reading your post nearly brought tears to my eyes. How awful - for you and your kids. No child deserves to live in fear like that. From a parent.<P>I too hope he has taken in to heart, and does something about his behaviour and his drinking. Maybe this will be the catalyst he needs. I hope so. Your counsellor sounds like she is lovely. And concerned about you all. Did you 'clicl' with her? That is so important. Obviously the children did, to be able to tell her the things they did. That is one great thing. Are they going to see her again also?<P>It broke my heart to read about them being so worried about you. They're not having a childhood are they? They are having to deal with things that no child should ever have to deal with.<P>Can you stop visitation? Or at least modify it? I know someone here whose ex-h was completely irresponsible (as well as abusive) and any visitation he had with his children had to have a third party present. Could you have the courts order the same thing.<P>The safety and the welfare of your babies must always come first. I know I don't have to tell you that. But it must be so hard for you, you must have loved/love this man once.<P>I will think of you and pray for you.<P>I hope today is better for you than yesterday. Take care.<P>hugs to you<P>Jo.<P>ps if you respond, don't think I'm not here. The time difference is a killer, and I need to go to bed now......<BR>I'll be thinking of you tho...

I second bonnet's position. Check with your lawyer and see if there is grounds for future visitation to be on a supervised basis only. <P>I don't think there's any reason small children should be exposed to a raging alcoholic. Or even one who's nodding off and can't properly supervise them. <P>What happens to his health is his business. What happens to your children is theirs, yours, and the court's. It may be time to do far more than counseling. And you may be doing him a favor. He needs a wake-up-call.

thanks for your replys and thoughts..<P>We're not yet divorced..and so the visitation<BR>right now isn't set in stone..(or black and white) were separated..(his drinking being a part of why) and I hate to tell them they can't go visit their dad right now..there's just something about telling them NO, you can't see him..or telling Him, No you can't see them..that really bothers me..at least for right now..and I don't want him to be able to use that in court against me saying I <BR>kept the kids from him...(even if it is in their best interest with him drinking)and they feel so torn inside..wanting to see him<BR>because they love him...but not wanting to be around him when he's drinking..<P>So what do you do? I can't control his drinking..and I am not there to see if he is drinking or not..and asking the kids was your dad drinking?? and then not letting them go<BR>because he was...then they won't say anything<BR>at all for fear of not getting to see him.

The kids talked a little bit to there dad..the counselor called him..and he said<BR>he and the kids need to sit down and talk..<BR>They are afraid of how he will react..<P>So now they don't want to go see him this weekend..they want to talk to him w/ a third party there like the counselor..which is fine w/ me..I guess I need to be the one to make the appointment..which is fine..but they haven't talked to him hardly at all since he told them that..he hasn't called them..and they haven't called him..I'm hoping he's thinking about it all...and remaining sober<BR>while doing the thinking..(which would be a first)because he doesn't like to "deal" w/ things..he'd rather try and drink the problems away and not face them.<P>I haven't talked to him at all about it..so I don't know what he's doing..<P>Any thoughts on how to easy their minds?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ThornedRose:<BR><B>So now they don't want to go see him this weekend..</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Just one thing: I want you to be careful not to slip into "parental alienation syndrome". This is a very easy pitfall where an XH has a lifestyle that is disturbing to the XW (I know, it's not so much a lifestyle as a <I>real big problem</I> but the point still applies). <P>You have a very, very, very fine line to walk between protecting your children and doing things that make them hate their father. You should learn about PAS, so that if you're accused of it you can show that you haven't slipped into it. <P>When you read what elements make up PAS, you will see that there are a lot of perfectly reasonable actions there that in their totality add up to something unreasonable. The challenge is to measure carefully your response to every provocation, and be able to document why you did what you did. <P>One thing to know about PAS is that when it's been practiced successfully, it's <I>the children</I> who claim not to want to see the XH. That means that what I saw you write (that I quoted above) is a <I>red flag</I> that it's starting to happen. The children should always want to see their father (unless something really egregious is going on). If they don't, it may be that their attitudes are being shaped by the custodial parent. That's PAS, and it will get you in trouble. <P>Everything I said about them being around when he's drinking still applies. But that should be <I>your</I> attitude. When it becomes <I>theirs</I>, chances are it's coming from <I>you</I> to an impermissible extent, and it will come back to haunt you later, either in court, or in their grown-up reappraisals of their early lives.

Sis, <P>I try and encourage them to spend time w/ their dad..I know that they need to have that<BR>bond..I don't want them to hate their dad, nor do I want them to be afraid of him..<P>I ask them daily if they have talked to him,<BR>and if they say no, I tell them they should call him..it's he who doesn't call them..and who has stayed away from them..<P>as far as the PAS you were discussing..he's the one who has told them when I have gone out of town..that I wasn't coming back, and <BR>when he has had them before on a weekend he wouldn't let them call me..and told them if I wanted to talk to them I'd call them...<P>But, I have always tried to encourage their relationship with him..two years ago my 8 yr old was baptised..she had asked her dad what weekend he was going to be home so that she could make it for that weekend so he would be here..he told her when he'd be in town..then he called and said he wouldn't be here that weekend and asked her to reschedule it..so she did..then he called a couple days before that weekend and said he wouldn't be here..and asked her if she would reschedule it again...I asked her when she wanted to reschedule it for..she said..she didn't..<BR>said.."If I keep waiting on dad to be here I'll never get baptised" (that was before Thanksgiving) he didn't come home again till Christmas and was only here for Christmas Eve <BR>day, and Christmas day and left the day after Christmas..and didn't come home again till March of last year..our 6 yr old said he wanted dad to take him fishing..so I told him call him and ask him to take you..he said, He won't take me, he likes work and beer more than me..I told him thats not true, that his dad loves him and would take him fishing..well..he called him, his dad said yes he'd take him..then he came home that weekend and told him he couldn't afford to take him fishing..but then went out and bought beer and drank all weekend..we had fishing poles..everything..the only thing he would have had to buy was the bait..but I went out the next weekend and bought new fishing poles..and bait..and some other things..($200 worth of fishing things) so he wouldn't have an excuse not to take him..he took him out for 1/2 and hour..then came home..I asked my son if he had fun..he said No, dad just yelled the whole time..so see I have tried to encourage their relationship..<P>I hear that song "Cats In the Cradle" and I fear thats how their relationship will be..<BR>that they won't have one..because their dad is to busy for them now..that they will be to busy for him later..and that hurts me..but I am learning I can't make him have a relationship w/ his kids..he has to want that himself..and he has to try to make time for them..or he won't have one...I've tried to talk to him about it too..he even said he'd call them the same time every day so that they can talk he did that for awhile..then he quit calling..so I tell them to call him instead..but they get tired of calling and getting the voice mail..<P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ThornedRose:<BR><B>we had fishing poles..everything..the only thing he would have had to buy was the bait..but I went out the next weekend and bought new fishing poles..and bait..and some other things..($200 worth of fishing things) so he wouldn't have an excuse not to take him..</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Um, I really don't want to sound accusatory here, because it sounds to me like you're doing a terrific job of trying to do the right thing in a very difficult situation. However, I suspect you may be subconsciously working against your conscious intentions.<P>If you already had all the fishing equipment required, then why did you buy new equipment? By doing that, you were manipulating your husband and rubbing his nose in his failure. At least, I'd wager that's how your husband sees it.<BR>

--If you already had all the fishing equipment required, then why did you buy new equipment? By doing that, you were manipulating your husband and rubbing his nose in his failure. At least, I'd wager that's how your husband sees it.--<P><BR>I guess maybe in a way I was being manipulating..I didn't want any excuses on why he couldn't take them fishing..(ie..his reel was broken..which it was) and the kids would have to use my fishing poles..which wasn't a big deal..but this way they all had their own..I also bought chairs which we didn't have..so they wouldn't have to stand or sit on the ground..I guess I am just tired of his excuses..for not doing things..<P>I guess it was the wrong reasons behind it..<P><BR>