I've been a lurker to this board for years. Until now, just reading the posts have been therapeutic...since there were so many similar situations. I'm having major inner conflicts with myself over my marriage. Just a short version of it, I've been married for 13 yrs and have 2 small children. He has been unfaithful and I have found out of 3 affairs that he has been in. He is a drug user and we spend very little time we each other. I guess I can safely say that I'm very uncomfortable around him. I have told him that I want a separation or divorce but he refuses b/c he loves me and tells me that I will put the children through hell. I'm extremely unhappy in this marriage and plan to put a deposit on an apt. next Friday and file for divorce this summer...this has got to be the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. I have been loyal, faithful and practically a slave as far as maintaining my home, work and children. He has admitted his "mistakes" but the admissions is not working anymore. I'm not sure why I'm writing this probably want assurances that things do get better with time and that there is more to life than anger, lonliness, exhaustion, apathy, etc. after divorce. One more thing I have met an old friend after 20 years of being gone...he has brought out more feelings that I've never had with my husband. He has given me so much support and patience than I thought possible. No, we are not having an affair and wouldn't think of it until we are both divorced besides he lives in another state and I've yet to see him. The last time was about 20 years ago. Does anyone have any insights or thoughts they would like to share?

Hi ITEACH...<P>I'd hope you do one thing before filing.<P>Be true to yourself, and tell your H about your own interest in your friend...<P>Then...<BR>...with <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html" TARGET=_blank>The Policy of Joint Agreement(POJA)</A> you've learn about here... get your H to agree to some serious counseling...<P>I would recommend that you have a couple of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7200_phone.html" TARGET=_blank>telephone counseling sessions</A> (~$120US a pop... but well worth it) with <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7010_about.html" TARGET=_blank>Steven W. Harley</A> or Jennifer Harley. Check out the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html" TARGET=_blank>Counseling Center</A>... and for some specifics... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7015_fee.html" TARGET=_blank>Fees for Counseling Services</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7020_sched.html" TARGET=_blank>Scheduling an Appointment</A> (888-639-1639)!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>(#3.) The (betrayed) spouse needs to know that he/she had done his/her best to save their marriage. (page 76 of <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6070_sa.html" TARGET=_blank> "Surviving An Affair"(SAA)</A>)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Have you done all you can?<P>You have my prayers.<P> <P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000254.html" TARGET=_blank>Jim</A> / <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000037.html" TARGET=_blank>NSR</A>

No, things to NOT get better with time. Life after separation/divorce is far, far worse than I could ever have imagined in my worst nightmares, and every day is worse than the previous. <P>And just because your relationship with this OM is not physical does not make it not an affair.

I don't think it could get any worse than contracting STD, having a gun to my head, verbally/emotionally abused and extreme loneliness when he would rather be out there drinking and smoking than with his family. As for the OM, he is not. He was my best friend in school and still is now. My H knows about him and never has been an issue in my marriage. Most women have girlfriends to confide in, well, he is my confidante. <P>As far as working on the marriage...besides selling my soul in the process. I've done all I can do but as long as he drinks and does drugs, I can't do anymore. All I want is peace of mind and take the best care of my kids in a drug-free environment. <BR>

Then why didn't you leave a long time ago, before the old friend came into the picture?<BR>

Yes, leaving is hard to do and I did not have as much reason as you do!!! As for working on the marriage, are you willing to do that if he gets help? If you are, then leaving does not have to be THE END. It can mark a BEGINNING... for you to begin to live in peace. And I hope your husband who loves you will come around in the process.<P>I have a lot of guilt because I was the leaver although he was the cheater. And there was a friend (male) in my life that reminded me of who I was and that I deserved more. I had girlfriends too, but somehow hearing from a man's perspective helped me. Yes, I could say I had an emotional affair with him. In a sense, I did. But also, I know that I needed the strength to get out of a bad situation. I had begun to believe lies about myself and my worth that no one else was able to break through. I think all he did was focus on the good in me. And he kept telling me over and over how good it is to be strong. And that I was strong. <BR>Your situation is abusive -- so use that strength inside you. And yes, the children will hurt -- but YOU are not hurting them. It is his bad choices. And they will be better when you are better -- and I hope when he gets better too.<BR>The only other thing I would like to recommend is that you don't get into any relationships until you look into why you let yourself be in that relationship without your needs being met. You don't need another relationship like that!!! And plenty of times people fall for the same types over and over again. <BR>So be strong and get help for yourself and your kids.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nellie1:<BR><B>Then why didn't you leave a long time ago, before the old friend came into the picture?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sometimes one needs a nudge ... no one should have to live with abuse but part of the reason people don't leave is because the abuser makes them feel as if they cannot go on without them ... sometimes an old friend coming into the picture is JUST what is needed.<P>And for her sake I hope that a friend is what he is and a friend is what he stays for it makes life WAY too complicated when a relationship starts too soon ...

A "friend" of the opposite sex is never what is needed when the future of a marriage, or lack there of, is at stake.

I hope we are not trying to say that there is no place for a friend of the opposite sex in our lives! I agree, that should not be the primary source for our needs being met, but I do NOT believe that every relationship must be about romance/sex/affairs. I believe there are true friendships between people of different sexes -- and yes, both are heterosexual. I cannot think that we are reducing ourselves to animal instincts and that every relationship is about attraction to attachment.<BR>Still, this is dangerous ground -- to ever go to the opposite sex to have your needs met while your spouse is not meeting them. So, of course, tread lightly, but don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nellie1:<BR><B>A "friend" of the opposite sex is never what is needed when the future of a marriage, or lack there of, is at stake. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I disagree. A friend who helps a friend leave an abusive relationship is a friend ... you can't expect everyone with a troubled relationship to completely avoid persons of the opposite sex. A male friend gave me the encouragement I needed to leave my situation. He is in some ways closer to me than some of my best female friends and my current boyfriend. But he didn't get me to leave so that he could have me for himself ... he's happily married and on the other side of the country. He encouraged me to leave because he is a friend. It bothers me when people seem to think we don't need friends, or can only have a friend of a certain gender or it's inappropriate ... not meant as an attack at all, but as a statement of my opinion.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nellie1:<BR><B>No, things to NOT get better with time. Life after separation/divorce is far, far worse than I could ever have imagined in my worst nightmares, and every day is worse than the previous.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm sorry your experience has been so negative. But to tell someone that things will NOT get better with time ... life is pretty hard for me right now, but it was unbearable before I left.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>And just because your relationship with this OM is not physical does not make it not an affair. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree. I had an emotional affair and it was discovered by STBXH and ended. I remain friends with this 'OM'. I've learned that what he told me was the truth, and what my STBXH told me was not the truth.<P>But, to look at it in a different way ... my psychologist has told me many of the same things my male friend told me. Am I having an emotional affair with my psychologist? Or is he telling me things that a friend would tell me?<P>Just because a person of the opposite sex makes you feel better about yourself, does not make it an inappropriate relationship. I didn't leave my STBXH to be with the OM. I left to be the person I was before the abuse. Strong, beautiful, intelligent ... everything I lost and never thought I'd find again through years of emotional abuse. The OM had a huge part in helping me to find the courage to leave, something a string of counselors could not do for me. I love him and I thank him for that.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nellie1:<BR><B>Then why didn't you leave a long time ago, before the old friend came into the picture?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh <B>Nellie</B>, you know the answer to that! <P>She is being abused and there are a zillion reasons, mostly dealing with fear, why women who are being abused find it difficult to leave. The new man came in and *showed* her that she was worthy of love and respect when she thought she'd hit bottom. <P>No, that doesn't make it right, but it is understandable.<P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ITEACH:<BR><B>I don't think it could get any worse than contracting STD, having a gun to my head, verbally/emotionally abused and extreme loneliness when he would rather be out there drinking and smoking than with his family. As for the OM, he is not. He was my best friend in school and still is now. My H knows about him and never has been an issue in my marriage. Most women have girlfriends to confide in, well, he is my confidante. <P>As far as working on the marriage...besides selling my soul in the process. I've done all I can do but as long as he drinks and does drugs, I can't do anymore. All I want is peace of mind and take the best care of my kids in a drug-free environment. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I've been through some of that myself. I put a deposit on an apartment in November, and I've been out since December. He has followed up on just about all of the threats he made about what he'd do if I ever left him, most frighteningly his taking the kids and not allowing me to see them, filing false police reports and getting a PPO against me (!!!!) and is trying to get full custody and keep our property.<P>In my case the gun was put on the table in front of me to use on myself, not pointed at me, but you first need to protect yourself and your children and get a PPO before he does anything more! I was advised to get one before I left and thought I didn't need one, and that I would just incur his wrath if I did get one, since he's got a lot of guns already. But because of my inaction, he lied and distorted his way through a petition and got one against me, and the judge wouldn't award me one.<P>Document the emotional abuse and any physical abuse. Document the drug and alcohol abuse. Document any assets you have, any. It is surprising how they tend to 'disappear' after you move out. <P>Be safe. Your children need their parents, but they deserve happy, healthy parents. What you go through and hear and say and do is what they will see as a role model. My kids saw too much, and I can't go back and change it. But I can show them a different person now than I could back then. I do not deserve what I put up with so that my kids could live with both parents ... and I didn't want them growing up with the idea that a daddy acts this way and a mommy acts this way ...<P>Before it sounds like I am, I'm not advocating running away from your problems. I/we went through counseling and things got very very good in between being very very bad. I actually thought at one point last summer that we would make it, not become a statistic. But it takes two, and I refused to tolerate being treated in a way I would never want my daughter to be treated. Now I'm the bad guy for leaving, for 'giving up', for not trying harder. I'm the terrible person for getting away from the man I was afraid my son would grow up to be like. Such is life.<P>It's hard. It hurts. But if abuse is involved, it's worth it. He won't change unless he wants to, and it sounds like he thinks you are the problem, not him.

For a long time I thought I was the crazy one and there are some days when I think it could have worked out but the majority of the times it is just resentment and anger towards him. Yes, he is telling me that I'm the bad guy in this but after reading and hearing other women in the same type of situation I'm not so bad for wanting peace of mind. My biggest problem is approaching him that I'm putting a deposit and moving out at the end of May when school is out. I have never been able to communicate with him about anything in a civilized conversation. Any ideas? As for my friend, we talk and I know that he is my friend without strings and no conditions attached. I wouldn't have my sanity if it weren't for him. <p>[This message has been edited by ITEACH (edited April 29, 2001).]

nb,<P>No, I don't buy it. Especially when she keeps insisting that the OM is just a "friend". yet says:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>No, we are not having an affair and wouldn't think of it until we are both divorced<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You can not discount the likelihood that she, like most betrayers, is rewriting history. <P>T-L-C<P>You wrote:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>A friend who helps a friend leave an abusive relationship is a friend ... you can't expect everyone with a troubled relationship to completely avoid persons of the opposite sex.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>YES YOU CAN. It is a basic tenet of the marriage builders philosophy that you do NOT share marital problems with anyone of the opposite sex, , that you do NOT have friends of the opposite sex who are not also friends of your spouse, and if you are having conversations with or spending time with a person of the opposite sex and you would hesitate to tell your spouse about it, that is wrong. <P>And why would I NOT tell her that it doesn't get better after divorce, when that has been my experience (over two years since my H left)? Because she doesn't want to hear it?<P>It is not just chance that almost everyone who posted here offering her support is a WS. <P>This board in particular is not about marriage building. I only wish that the Harleys had never created it - there are plenty of support boards out there for people who want to get divorced, but there is extremely limited secular support for those who are standing for their marriages.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nellie1:<BR>YES YOU CAN. It is a basic tenet of the marriage builders philosophy that you do NOT share marital problems with anyone of the opposite sex, , that you do NOT have friends of the opposite sex who are not also friends of your spouse, and if you are having conversations with or spending time with a person of the opposite sex and you would hesitate to tell your spouse about it, that is wrong.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So not everyone shares that philosophy. I for one am glad I am not surrounded by sheeple. Where does it say that her H does not know that she talks with this male friend?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And why would I NOT tell her that it doesn't get better after divorce, when that has been my experience (over two years since my H left)? Because she doesn't want to hear it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Like I said, I'm sorry yours has had such a negative impact on your life. But I cannot in good conscience advocate someone staying with an abuser who is not in counseling, especially one who has threatened with a gun. When it comes to this safety factor, I don't care which spouse has had one or a dozen affairs ... you don't argue with bullets.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>This board in particular is not about marriage building. I only wish that the Harleys had never created it - there are plenty of support boards out there for people who want to get divorced, but there is extremely limited secular support for those who are standing for their marriages.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>There is limited support for people who leave, period. Who says that because I left I *wanted* to get divorced?

Hi everyone,<P>May I make a suggestion. Let's concentrate on the spousal abuse and the "gun to my head". ITEACH is presenting some classic symptons of the abused spouse syndrome. We've all heard the cliche about gasoline and alcohol don't mix. Well, alcohol, drugs and guns don't make a very good mix either. Then she adds the bit about another man. Explosive situation?<P><B>PLEASE, DON'T ANYONE EVEN DARE TO THINK ABOUT STRIKING A MATCH!</B><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by T-L-C:<BR><B> You don't argue with bullets</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Friends, you don't hang around them either. And you don't wait until the end of May when school gets out to get away from a person who has held a firearm to your head.<P>If this person has held a firearm to your head, or threatened the use of a firearm, or even played head games with a firearm, go directly to the authorities and get a protection from abuse order now. Do Not Pass Go, Do Not Collect Two Hundred Dollars.<P>For anyone who reads this and has been threatened with a firearm or other deadly weapon, your life and the lives of your children are in danger! End of Story! No ifs, ands or buts. The sooner you act to protect yourself the better.<P>ITEACH, this is coming from an old time cop in a department that has reduced homicide rates by forty percent in each of the last two years with a proactive domestic abuse intervention program.<P>Bumper<P>

Hi there I Teach,<P> I agree with everything Bumper has said, please don't say anything about your "friend" to your husband (as Nellie thinks you should). You know what your H is capable of doing , don't inflame the situation.<P>Nellie,<P> Surely you don't think a person should stay in a marriage if there is abuse? LU

I'm in a bad mood this morning, and I don't have it in me to be dainty --<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't think it could get any worse than contracting STD, having a gun to my head<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Get out. Don't file for divorce just yet, but get somewhere SAFE for you and your children!!<P><B>Nellie</B>,<P>Yes, I am a WS offering support. As you know I am a BS offering support too. Who gives a crap what side of the fence I come from when offering support? I care. Isn't that what this place is about?<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ITEACH:<BR><B>For a long time I thought I was the crazy one and there are some days when I think it could have worked out but the majority of the times it is just resentment and anger towards him. Yes, he is telling me that I'm the bad guy in this but after reading and hearing other women in the same type of situation I'm not so bad for wanting peace of mind. My biggest problem is approaching him that I'm putting a deposit and moving out at the end of May when school is out. I have never been able to communicate with him about anything in a civilized conversation. Any ideas? As for my friend, we talk and I know that he is my friend without strings and no conditions attached. I wouldn't have my sanity if it weren't for him.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My STBXH knew I was moving out - I didn't hide that fact. He would go hot and cold between acting like he wanted nothing more than to make things better between us, and treating me like garbage. Things came to a head one night when I dared to go out past my 'curfew' and he stole the kids the next morning. I had to stay with a family member for a month because my apartment wasn't available yet, and no one in my family knew anything about the abuse. I had very little help from law enforcement with getting my kids back, they wouldn't even enforce a court order signed by the judge!! It was a nightmare ...<P>But that was December, and it's almost May now. I've been paying my own rent and my own bills, and I have temporary physical custody. I am safe and my kids are learning that their mom is NOT a 'worthless' 'white trash' 'whore' and that she is a better mom now than she could be before. They are also happy because daddy doesn't yell all the time. Now if he would just stop telling them lies ... but that's another post.<P>Can you move sooner than May? It sounds like you don't want to disrupt the kids' school routine, and that's admirable, but once you start making plans to leave, and he knows it is coming, things become unpredictable. You have to be safe, okay? Do what you need to - don't underestimate an abuser's ability to follow through on threats. I gave up a lot to walk away ... but I'm gaining my life back, and my sanity, and my friends and family who I alienated for so long because I didn't want them to know what I lived with. Find a friend or counselor nearby that you can confide in. I know your male friend seems invaluable to you at this time, but you have to leave for YOU and your kids, not because of *any* possibility of being with someone new. I have SO gone through that ...<P>When you're out and safe, you can give him the option of marriage counseling once he's gotten out of the drugs and alcohol. If you divorce, let it be his decision that his lifestyle is more important than your marriage. My STBXH did not abuse drugs or alcohol, in the last few years at least, just me. I think it was an addiction of sorts for him. Counseling did not work because he was sure it was MY fault that he did the things he did. I *made* him yell and hit, sound familiar?