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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OvrCs:<BR><B>What does this mean?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Just what it says. I have the check in hand, where it will stay, unless and until I get my release. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Is she supposed to receive this money?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yep. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Why wouldn't she want to do this?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Here's something I just discovered today, a corollary to Occam's Razor:<P>Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which can be<BR>adequately explained by stupidity". [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] <BR>

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Well, here's my latest. In an effort to be <I>accomodating</I>, I have done some digital manipulation of the credit union's release form so that it is not effective to get her name off the accounts unless and until she is also released from liability for any debts (of course, a new application would be accompanying the release, but apparently the other side didn't want to take that minimal risk). <P>It frankly hadn't occurred to me during all these months to change the language of the credit union's form. GF came up with the idea as we were dozing off last night. Were the credit union a big bank, an idea like this would never fly, but since they're small it's worth a try (gosh, I sound like <B><I>Underdog</I></B> here). <P>So the new language is off to her attorney and her. Who knows, may'be I'll get somewhere this time. It would be nice to send her the check and the CD-Rs and be done with it.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited August 12, 2001).]

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Your GF sounds like a winner! She's pretty calm, cool and collected I'd say. How much time really do you spend talking about this stuff... AND are you thinking of anything more serious at this point?<P>Does she know these MB principles? Does she already live them out? <P>It will be done when the SAGA is over but then what will we do without Sisyphus on the MB Boards!!???<P>Cheers!<BR>Nicole<P>------------------<BR><I>The new country is where you are called to go, and the only way to go there is naked and vulnerable</I> ~ Henri Nouwen

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Another annoying thing came up today. XW's name shows up on a database as having received her professional designation. She never told me ... (it was a very long road she made longer than it should have been, and I supported her efforts 1000% percent). <BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum15/HTML/000164.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum15/HTML/000164.html</A> <P>I just feel like dropping those CD-Rs in the mail to rip it all away from her... but of course I won't. A <I>Grateful Dead</I> line keeps going through my head "Is there anything a man don't stand to lose ... when the Devil wants to take it all away..." Which would cast me in the role of <B>The Devil</B>!<P>Still no word on whether I will get from her the paperwork <I>I</I> need.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited August 13, 2001).]

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Still nothing.

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when will this end!!! How frustrating for you!<P>------------------<BR><I>The new country is where you are called to go, and the only way to go there is naked and vulnerable</I> ~ Henri Nouwen

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I sent <I>her</I> an e-mail and left a message on her office voice-mail (she wouldn't pick up my call). Nothing beyond "Will I see either version of the release form from you anytime soon?"<P>I've left a similar voice-mail message in the not-too-distant past (3-4 days ago). <P>Still toying with the idea of letting her father or brother in on the family secret. But I feel strangely unemotional about the whole thing, and since I'm not worked up about it, I don't feel a lot of motivation to actually <I>do it</I>. <P>This isn't the hill I want to die on. Even though it <I>should</I> be the last battle, something tells me it's not, and I'll need to keep my powder dry. <P>

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You once suggested we dissect my H's brain... how about hers? WHAT has she got as her BATNA?<BR><B>B</B>est<BR><B>A</B>lternative<BR><B>T</B>to a <BR><B>N</B>egotiated<BR><B>A</B>greement<P>What is her BEST alternative to signing or NOT signing the release? WHAT is going on in her head? What is YOUR BATNA? What can you do if she simply WILL not sign?<P>Then you weigh whether your alternative is stronger and preferential to dealing with her. She sounds incredibly unreasonable to me.<P>As for the vindictive moment/thought you had there regarding letting her bro and dad know the *family* secret... just let it go. Go OUT taking the high ground. Anyway, why do you call it *family* when her Dad and Bro don't even know? AND, what good will it do to getting your release... that IS what you want isn't it? Or are you still dealing with the TITLE of this thread... <I>the same old temptation</I>... <P>Hmmm?<P>Cheers,<BR>Nicole<BR><P>------------------<BR><I>"You will deceive yourself into believing that if people, circumstances, and events had been different, your pain would not exist...Your pain is the concrete way in which you participate in the pain of humanity."</I> <BR>~ Henri Nouwen ~

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She's <I>got</I> to realize that more can be done with the secret than has already been done. Perhaps she has already told people in her family, having realized that it is unpredictable when or where the information might show up next. She might have told her boss of the CD-RWs, putting her own spin on my participation in the matter. <P>She might be enjoying watching me squirm. Or be trying to goad me into crossing some line that will allow her to involve me in a long and exhausting legal battle, or possibly problems with the Bar. <P>She might <I>want</I> me to get angry and inform her brother and/or father because she can't do so herself. She once <I>tried</I> to talk about it to her mother, but was only able to do so in such oblique terms that her mother was left only with the impression that the uncle tried to get her to try pot--the mother said the father <I>could not</I> be told. The father is probably closer to this uncle than to any other of his siblings--he parks a 40' RV at the uncle's ranch whenever he's in the area. <P>She might want <I>out</I> of her profession, and be unable to pull that trigger (she wants to be in something where she can earn commissions, not just splits of jobs someone else brings in--to be a player rather than referee). <P>Or she may just have lost the impetus to finish this off because nothing terrible has happened in a while (like the first release of the information). <P>Or she may know that it sort of hangs me up (since I have one or two "joint" accounts that have her name on them), and it pleases her to keep that connection for some reason. <P><BR>My BATNA is to just ignore it, and wait for her attorney to push the issue if anything at all happens. Hers is likely to wait until <I>I</I> push the issue. <P>Heck, I might do something provocative today. Or not. <P>It's easy to counsel others to exercise gentleness with each other, and to take the most charitable view of others' actions (or inactions). To practice it in one's own life requires the utmost discipline.

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Well, here's a strange twist. My GF just got a rusing visit at the office from a gal claiming to be an old friend who saw my name on the guard's sign-in sheet Saturday and wanted to see if I was at her (GF's) office right now. Admitted to being from the same floor as XW, but didn't give a name. <P>The physical description is consistent with an ex-support employee of XW's firm with whom XW was particularly close. This particular person moved away with her husband to his new job in another state, but I could easily see her returning to town for one reason or another. <P>The other funny think is that I have completely blanked out this person's name ... I can remember <I>her sister's</I> name and I've only met the sister a few times (only because the name is unusual ... and this gal's name <I>isn't</I> ... but I can remember the <I>husband's</I> name too, and it's as common as dirt. Aaaargh.

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I rememeberd XW's office friend's name, and GF made a rusing call of her own. The friend isn't working there.

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I have some movement to report in any case. XW's attorney called and asked that I fax over the revised document. He couldn't find his attachment. As usual. So I faxed it. I've heard nothing back, but it's only been over there about an hour, and that's a nanosecond to a lawyer. Unless he's billing for it. In which case it's definitely longer than an hour, but highly variable. <P>No mention of XW apparently having done the detective work for reasons unknown. So I imagine that will have no repurcussions other than somehow moving XW to move forward.<P>Interesting that after all the talk of me being controlling and paranoid, etc.; she is the only one who has gone so far as to actually do anything underhanded to try to find out about <I>my</I> private life, by sending someone downstairs to ruse my GF's office looking for me. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

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Still nothing. I did send an e-mail to her (blind copying her father and brother for whatever good that might do--one or both might be getting a distorted version, and this could cause them to question her) yesterday morning: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Will I be seeing that revised <credit union name> Release anytime soon? I've been doing my part, but you and your lawyer don't seem so enthusiastic to wrap this up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Just a little jolt. So far no response. Of course, the $900 check stays right in my drawer in the meantime. <p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited August 28, 2001).]

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I guess I lost it a bit today. <P>I tried to phone her at her office, and was given her attorney's number to call. Since he's worthless, it P.O.'d me. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>So I forwarded a couple of old e-mails to a close friend of hers. E-mails that made clear what had happened to her years ago. And that she had apparently not thought enough of certain relatives to warn against certain other relatives. XW's friend is her high-school French teacher, now retired and moved away. XW's most trusted and respected confidant, outside of family. A strong catholic, she'll be astonished at XW's omission. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] But not a source of permanent repurcussions. Those recipients would be <I>inside</I> the family (of course, they would be so shallow as to be angry as much at having their apparently smooth relations upset as they would be over the actual facts [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] ). Regrettable that I must use XW's friend that way, but increasingly necessary.<P>I'm not looking for any particular effect between the two of them, merely a realization that failure to get me my paper, and failure to deal with me directly ... are now going to have concrete consequences. Escalating consequences. Ultimately, unbearable consequences. <P>It's easier to sign my paper and send it to me and be done with me. And if it isn't, I just need to make the alternative <I>tougher</I>. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

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Now, how are the consequences natural here...? I'm all for natural consequences but this still is vindictive... c'mon Sisyphus... just send her the $900 check and be done with it. Do you really want the hassle? <P>I'm asking you to really examine it... I know you're frustrated and it would make life easier but there's more to this... you're not *finished* yet or so it seems...<P>You have GOT to do what you can do to LIVE AT PEACE WITH EACH OTHER if at all possible and up to you!<P>BUT, I know this has GOT to be frustrating to be thinking/wondering about this each and every day...<P>Take care, bud...<BR>Nicole<P>------------------<BR><I>"You will deceive yourself into believing that if people, circumstances, and events had been different, your pain would not exist...Your pain is the concrete way in which you participate in the pain of humanity."</I> <BR>~ Henri Nouwen ~

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No, the consequences aren't natural. Apparently the natural consequences (not being off my account and credit card) hold little deterrent value. I'm having to get creative. <P>Vindictive, no. Remember, she could be out of not just a job but a career, and her family could hate her and each other. And that could have been done <I>months and months</I> ago. I'm using a light touch. Perhaps it's been too light. Only now am I turning the screw. Which, unfortunately, seems the only way to get things done. <P>Remember, when something is demanded of me, I do it. On the rare occasions when I receive some help, I acknowledge it. I put together the '99 1040, and changed it to <I>their</I> specifications. <P>That bunch wouldn't think twice about doing to me whatever they had to do. At least I have a little <I>angst</I> about it all.

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Just dropping in to give what I hope is the final update to this story. Not too long after my last missive, XW's attorney threatened "court intervention" over the remaining account issues and my attempts to contact XW. I held firm that I needed my release, and told him (in e-mail, as usual) that he didn't have a real strong record on which to go to court, as well as having deprived himself of a certain amount of relevance by not timely getting back to me with this, that and the other thing, while most of what they wanted of me came back to them same-day. <p>XW and her attorney at last provided the release I needed. But in the meantime they made some sort of contact with my credit union in the course of doing so ... that caused the credit union to close out my overdraft protection and a modest-limit Visa I had over there (at the moment, reopening them requires more paperwork than I want to do). <p>That could have been bumpy for me. But I was ahead of them, and transferred some balances to a card where I had a low rate; apparently doing so just ahead of the turbulence. <p>Meanwhile, GF's now ex-boss failed to support her when her previous boss derailed her first deal, then contrived to solve his own problem of overwork by trying to close GF's desk (though she had a pipeline full of deals) and pay her less to work directly under him. I steeled her to walk, and walk she did. Her ex-boss was a pain about paying her last paycheck, and was threatening to vigorously enforce a non-compete. I pointed out a few things that he did to create a hostile environment (in the sexual harrassment sense, with multiple witnesses--basically Clarence Thomas potty-mouth type stuff, no groping), and he coughed up the check and I think will be happy to see the last of us. GF has quietly hung out her own shingle. Again, putting together deals (sometimes four and five at a time) with outfits her former bosses weren't too interested in dealing with. She also did a bunch of back billing for my business ... bringing in thousands. <p>I still hold the CD-ROMs. May send them back before too much longer. GF and I get married in January.

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There you are!!! <p>Greetings from Johannesburg, So Africa (just here for 10 days teaching an HR course and partaking of a safari!)...<p>Well, the saga with the X is finished, eh? Gosh you're good... I'd hate to get into a face to face verbal argument with you!!!<p>Oh, and nice little "drop" with the news of your engagement!? Gosh, can't believe it! Really, didn't think you'd take the nestle plunge again for a while!<p>Well, all the best and I hope you do stay in touch! Congratulations! Take care.<p>Warmly,
Nicole

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by OvrCs:
<strong>Well, the saga with the X is finished, eh? Gosh you're good... I'd hate to get into a face to face verbal argument with you!!!</strong><hr></blockquote>Nah, I'm a pussycat. At least, I don't usually raise my voice. Wasn't necessarily so good at standing up for myself during the marriage. Only afterward, when I felt I owed little or no duty anymore. <p>Fiancee and I saw something horrifying last night. Had to call 911 on the cell. I spotted a couple in their 20s on a sidewalk in a seedy area of town, his hand on her throat. As we drove up and down the well-trafficked street, he forced her across the road, pulled her back as she tried to run away by crossing back across the street, and struggled with her along a block-long iron fence. They moved down a side-street, and he was keeping her with him by denying her her purse. We could see him lecturing her. Finally, the police showed up and made contact with them, the 911 officer relayed back that they had denied there was anything going on, and it became clear that the cops weren't sure they had the right couple. We assured the operator that they had spoken to the right couple ... and as we drove off we saw a squad car returning to questin them anew.

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