I wanted to start a new thread, because scrolling back and forth on that other one was making me dizzy!<P>Here's what happened LAST NIGHT! Gosh, does this EVER end? Some night will I go home and have a night that builds me up?<P>Anyway, my H went to a meeting for the city in which we live (he's on a board), and my son and I went out to Walmart and then to Kentucky Fried for dinner--healthy, huh? Oh well, we had fun. About 8pm my H's meeting got done, and he decided to go out with the boys for a drink. Bear in mind, the man is diabetic. So, he calls before he goes out drinking and he asks if I have anything he needs to know, to which I respond, "Yes. Topic #1 that has to do with our son, and second, now that I've had a little time to let it sink in, I'm feeling a bit hurt by what was said last night and I could go for some reassurance." That's almost exactly the way I said it, because I remember ahead of time thinking that I need to keep it on how I feel and what he can do to fix it. <P>Anyway, about an hour and a half later, he starts driving home and calls ahead to say he wants to stop at the office to do some work. I told him that I would really like him to come home so we can discuss last night, because I'm really hurting about it. Here's where it starts!<P>He got ANGRY that I was demanding his time (I "wouldn't let him go to work") and demanding that he drop everything to take care of me. So, he comes screaming home (I literally heard the squeal of the brakes in the driveway), flings open the door really hard, and slams down the stairs. The first words out of his mouth were: "You're a real piece of work, you know it." Use your imagination, because it just continued on like that for about an hour.<P>Finally, in my head and in my heart, I had had enough. I came to the man expressing my feelings, looking for a little reassurance, and I had my heart ripped up AGAIN. I need a husband that I can turn to and get a soft, tender response, not this! Over and over in my head I thought, "was what I asked for unreasonable? Was I *****y or did I present it whiney or demanding or judgementally?" Know what my answer was over and over and over and over? NO! It was reasonable for me to feel hurt when I found out that my H wasn't in love with me for almost our entire marriage! It was reasonable to feel a little shook up when I found out that he had had numerous A's over the years. It is reasonable to need a little reassurance after hearing that kind of news--to ask for some hugs and kind words that it is not like that now. I kept my request focused on my feelings ("I feel hurt..." not "You are a ..."), and I let him know what he could do to fix it! <P>Meanwhile, his response was almost knee-jerk defensiveness. I hadn't done anything that warranted that kind of attack, yet he acted like I had been demanding and judgemental (as I have been in the past), and he reacted like HE has in the past. He TORE ME TO SHREDS, defended and justified his actions, and he kept turning the focus to him and to his feelings and to his insecurities. He kept saying, "See what I get when I tell you the truth? I don't need this kind of grief from anyone. I'm never being honest with you again." "I'll just tell you what you want to hear, so you have no reason to threaten to leave." "Well, I AM SCARED YOU'RE GOING TO LEAVE, and you won't even address my feelings. Who died and made you God that you decide what we talk about and don't?" Stuff like that. Over and over I told him that this time, this night, I wanted to keep the topic on MY issue and deal with MY topic, and that we could talk about HIS issues tomorrow over coffee or at lunch or whatever. Personally, I think he was just trying to throw off my focus--like if he could distract me, we won't have to talk about the past and how I felt.<P>Like I said, after a while, my heart and my head had had enough. I can not deal with this kind of relationship, and I don't deserve it. There came a point where I just shut up and let him rant and rave. I feel like I kind of "gave up", but I just can not continue on like this. We ended the night just agreeing that we probably shouldn't talk anymore and, since it was getting late, it would probably just degrade and get worse, so we agreed to go to sleep. UNBELIEVABLY, after all this, he wanted to snuggle in bed! Can you BELIEVE IT? My head is still spinning just thinking about it, but I knew that in a wierd way that was his way of saying, "Are we still connected?" so I did lay right by him and hold hands. <P>Gosh, I feel like I was defeated. When we first agreed to reconcile, I felt so strong and sure of myself--I had learned so much that I was SURE that we would be able to rebuild and recover! I was POSITIVE. Now, I'm not wearing my heart on my sleeve for him anymore. I'm taking some quiet time to finish reading "Boundaries in Marriage" and I am going to decide what to do FOR ME. The fact of the matter is that I have been leaving my heart "out there" in an attempt to be close with him and rebuild love, and now I need to "guard my heart, for it is the wellspring of life."<P>The funny thing is, I STILL think that it's possible for us to reconcile, rebuild and recover, but not the way things are right now. I look at each day and try to consider each day on it's own--"did he behave in a loving way today? did I behave in a loving way today? what can we do better tomorrow?"--and not look to the past and not count on the future. Okay, it's true that the past did shake me up a little bit, but what's done is done and I know we can't change it. Unfortunately, in my opinion, even looking at TODAY on a day-by-day basis, behavior has not been very loving the past few weeks.<P>So, I'll write more this weekend when I have decided what boundaries to ENFORCE and stand firm behind. <P>Thanks everyone for your thoughts and prayers!!<P><BR>CJ<P><P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

Thoughts and prayers with you for the weekend wish I could offer more. Keep you chin up and when you decide what's best FOR YOU we'll be here whatever your decision.<P>Love, Bill<P>------------------<BR>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-

<B>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{CJ}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}</B><P>CJ I am so sorry that he's behaving like this. I can feel from your post that your heart keeps getting ripped out by this. I am amazed at how strong a person you are. I could never take as much pain as you have throughtout this. You are one incredibly tough young lady.<P>I wish I could give you some wise advice, but I don't have any. I feel you are hanging by a thread. Hang on as long as you can. But if it gets too hard, and you have to let go, know that you did everything humanly possible to save this.<P>You are in my thoughts and prayers CJ.<P>Take care, and guard your heart...<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again

Hi CJ,<P>I've been reading your recent posts and watching how quickly things turned for you from "wedding in Vegas performed by an Elvis-impersonating-rabbi" to this nonsense. I think your statement below says a lot:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithfulWife:<BR><B>When we first agreed to reconcile, I felt so strong and sure of myself--I had learned so much that I was SURE that we would be able to rebuild and recover! </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>CJ, <B>you</B> have grown a lot over the last year or so. <B>You</B> are the one that learned about the Harley methods, about becoming a better person, and about what it takes to make the perfect marriage. <B>You</B> do have what it takes to be a great wife.<P>However, your hubby hasn't grown at all in this timeframe. He wanted to come back because it was a good "deal" for him, but he has done nothing about honing his marital skills. So I think he expected to just push the whole thing under the carpet and start anew, as if nothing has changed. That won't work for you, it won't work for any of us here who have spent months learning about marriage and improving ourselves. We now expect the perfect marriage, and won't settle for less.<P>I have no wisdom to offer, other than perhaps getting some counseling for both of you (individual or couples). I am very saddened by this, because it just reinforces my negativity regarding possible reconciliation with someone who has spent the last year screwing around and then might want to "come back", without having done anything to improve themselves (e.g. my W).<P>I'm really sorry, CJ....<P>((((((((((((((((((((((((((CJ))))))))))))))))))))))))<P>AGG

AGG,<P>You know what? That is a sorrow to me. Thinking back just about two months ago, and we were kidding around about a Las Vegas drive-thru Elvis wedding, and just that quickly it has turned around. That wasn't all that long ago!! What happened? When I say that I remember it like it was yesterday--well, that's because it WASN'T that long ago. I remember feeling so happy and confident and strong, and now I feel like I've been broken. <P>(heavy sigh)<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

CJ,<BR>Nothing you have asked from your husband has been unreasonable, if anything it seems that he is being totally unreasonable in his response to you and your feelings.<P>To reconcile, rebuild, recover, it takes work on both sides. Lots of listening, sharing, caring, expressing ones self, being completely honest and respect. You are so willing to do what ever it takes, CJ and you should be so proud of yourself. <P>I am sorry for how your husband is reacting and hope that it may just be an "initial" reaction that can change with council. I just don't know what to say. I hate to see you on such a rollercoaster of emotions. I pray for you CJ, I pray for your happiness.<P>Love, <BR>Petrie

((((((CJ))))))))),<P>There is a limit...you'll know when you've hit it. Until then, my thoughts are with you as you struggle through all these emotions.<P>Lisa

CJ,<P>You are not going to like my reply...but please take it in the loving helpful manner intended....<P>Here's what I see....<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>About 8pm my H's meeting got done, and he decided to go out with the boys for a drink. Bear in mind, the man is diabetic. So, he calls before he goes out drinking and he asks if I have anything he needs to know, to which I respond, "Yes. Topic #1 that has to do with our son, and second, now that I've had a little time to let it sink in, I'm feeling a bit hurt by what was said last night and I could go for some reassurance." That's almost exactly the way I said it, because I remember ahead of time thinking that I need to keep it on how I feel and what he can do to fix it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This IMHO is a stinging <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Buster</A> in the form of Selfish Demands and Disrepectful Judgements.<P>I see alot of these types of exchanges in your posts. You are in extreme pain a desperate to get things going...You must allow time for your Husband to readjust to his decion to reconcile....The only thing you need to do right now is concentrate on committing zero <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busters</A> and learning his <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A>. You cannot replenish his <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3200_love.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Bank</A> with these selfish demands, disrespectful judgements and angry outbursts. If you were in his shoes would it make you want to come or go out for a drink?<P>I surmise his main <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A> are sexual fulfillment, an attractive spouce and domestic support. So try this...Go out and paint the barn(metephore ) give up the booty and fix a sumptuous meal while your son stays the night with a friend <P>Don't even bring up "us" just revel in the moment, I'm certain by doing this you will get some of your needs met and it just might get him to open up.<P>And I will say this again and again and again and again <B>Talk To Steve Harley!!!!!!</B> He will give you a plan! Don't give me this I can't afford it because in reality you can't afford not to talk to him if you want to save your marriage.<P>Love ya,<P>Bill<P><BR>------------------<P><BR>May the roads rise to meet you,<BR>May the winds always be at your back,<BR>May the sun shine warm upon your face,<BR>The rains fall soft upon your fields,<BR>And until we meet again,<BR>May god hold you<BR>In the hollow of his hand.<p>[This message has been edited by WilliamJ (edited May 11, 2001).]

Actually, CJ, there's some encouraging aspects to this. First, <I>you</I> seem to have handled a crisis situation very well. In spite of your husband's verbal onslaught, you were able to keep your cool and listen to an objective part of yourself disarm the component of his attack with the most damage potential.<P>What really struck me, though, is that your husband showed real glimmers of awareness. Anger is a defensive reaction against fear, and is often used to mask one's own awareness of that fear. While your husband dealt with his fear by becoming angry and abusive, he nevertheless <I>acknowledged</I> that fear. I think this is very important.<P>Of course, since your husband feels particularly vulnerable in interactions with you, you are not a good candidate to help him face and manage his fears in a healthy way. He really <I>does</I> need help, but he needs it from someone else. I really think you've got to insist on counseling.<P>By the way, his expectation or desire to snuggle after the "fight" is by no means unusual, as strange as it may seem to you. Have you read Gottman's stuff? (I <I>think</I> he may have discussed this dynamic, but I've read so many books I am starting to get them confused...)<P>I think you're taking the right approach by stepping back and determining the boundaries you need. Hang in there, CJ!<P>{{{{{{{CJ<BR>

Bill, <P>I want to ask you to please explain a little more thoroughly<BR>what you meant, because if I am love busting I do want to<BR>stop it. However, it does not seem to me that what I did<BR>was Selfish Demands or Disrespectful Judgements, and I<BR>almost wonder if you misread my post. <P>Just to be clear, he had a meeting of one of the City Boards that got done at 8pm. He and the guys on the board decided to go out for a drink after the meeting, and before<BR>he went out, he called to see if there was anything he needed to know about, and in fact there were two topics I<BR>thought he might need to know about. Topic #1: Was about our son. This was a topic that my H was worrying about <BR>because he was worried that my son would be emotional and <BR>over-react. Topic #2 was that I was feeling sad about what<BR>was said last night and would like to talk to him and get a <BR>little reassurance when he got home. At no time did I say <BR>that he could not go out with the guys--in fact I was glad that he was going to go do something social--and at no time <BR>did I indicate that I thought going out drinking with the <BR>guys was "wrong" or "bad" because in fact I was glad for him <BR>to go! Now, don't misunderstand here Bill, he is diabetic <BR>so that drinking can hit him worse than the next guy, but <BR>he's a responsible drinker and usual drinks Diet Coke <BR>anyway. <P>Are you saying that my desire to have more intimate <BR>conversations is a Selfish Demand and Disrespectful <BR>Judgement? Continuing to try to have relationship talks <BR>when he has made it clear that he does not want to? Is that<BR>what you're trying to say? Please clarify for me what you are trying to say, because you may have a good point here! <BR>Maybe that is the way he is viewing it. <P>Last but not least, I am a little bit insulted about the <BR>"paint the barn" comments. Don't take this wrong, but it is<BR>awfully presumptuous of you to assume that I'm NOT "giving <BR>up the booty" just because I have felt hurt lately. In <BR>fact, my H's need for SF is lower than mine, but it means <BR>something way different to him than it does to me. To him,<BR>as I understand it, sex reassures him that things are going<BR>to be okay, sometimes it's an apology, and still other times it's a way that he feels close and connected. I get <BR>that. And I have a little news for you, Bill, he's getting <BR>it too!! Just because he's RE-acting and I'm feeling hurt, <BR>please don't assume that I have cut off good old fashioned, <BR>regular sex, because in my person opinion, sex can help <BR>salve a lot of wounds.<P>Well, I'll look forward to your reply.<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

GDP,<P>First, thanks for the hug. I know you don't just hand them out any old place, so I'm especially grateful.<P>Second, thanks for the encouragement. Now that I've had a couple hours to evaluate what happened, I'd have to say that I thought I did okay too. Of course, there are always things I could have done better, but all-in-all, I thought I stayed pretty reasonable.<P>I really liked what you said about my H showing glimmers of awareness of his own fears. I AGREE! I also think that towards the end he started to see that most of the things he was "accusing" me of were fears that he had on his own--that they weren't related to MY actions but to HIS worries. I'm with you--I think this shows some GREAT, HUGE change and I am VERY proud of him. I agree that counseling might help him to face his own fears, but you know what? He has to want to go! I can't "make" him!<P>Like I said in my original post, I sort of get the snuggling thing--it's a way to say "we will be okay, right?"--but it just seemed so WIERD to me. To me, a little distance would have done just the trick, to sort things out and cool off and settle down; but to him that would have meant, "I don't want to be near you" and boy, oh, boy! THAT would have been a Love Buster!!<P>Here's the thing. Whether my desire for conversation and relationship talks is an LB or not, I have reached a point now where I have GOT to step back and set some boundaries. I just can not take rages and verbally abusive responses anymore. I think the time has come to define and maintain my OWN sense of individuality, freedom and personal integrity--I need to establish my own personal boundaries and take ownership of my life.<P>Thanks again for the hugs!!<P>CJ<P><P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

I did not mean to imply that you were not offering sex nor was implying that<BR>you were less than physically apealing...I'm sorry if I were misunderstood, I<BR>really am....I used that metephore because We had a counselor once that told<BR>Robin that and Robin is beautiful....I meant Spice things up via negligee and<BR>such or a seductive outfit. No disrespect was intended <BR>He told Robin "Go out and paint the barn from time to time" we all<BR>laughed....<P>As far as LBs go....your H decides what one is....if talking about the<BR>relationship causes him pain and makes him feel guilt then yes it can be<BR>construed as one and if you are always wanting the again that is a selfish<BR>demand... Do you have the book Lovebusters? It is the BEST self help I have<BR>ever read!<P>I know it sucks but from everything I have read the BS is the one that has<BR>to do most of the work and sometimes that is just giving the WS the room<BR>they need....<P>Go read the basic concepts....Post directly to K if you have specific<BR>questions about this, his wife came back reluctantly and he has forgotten more of this stuff than I know.<P><B>AND TALK TO STEVE HARLEY!!!!</B><P>Bill<BR><p>[This message has been edited by WilliamJ (edited May 11, 2001).]