Hi Wifeofcop,<P>I was reading dabigtrain's post about weird separation and I found your comments about getting the A out in the open interesting.<P>Mine is a very typical story so I won't go into it. I suspected my of an A before he left, but was Plan A'ing I didn't want to bring it up. He had an affair before, so I knew what to look for.<P>Yesterday he told me he took a mutual girl friend of ours out for a drive...when I asked him when he said ..oh sometime in the last week...now that indicates to me he told me a lie about somewhere else he'd been, but anyway.<P>I suspected the A might be with this girl before he told me about the "drive". By the way I found out that he only told me because another friend found out, phoned him and said if he DIDN'T tell me, she would. Of course he just told me he wanted to be honest. Says absolutely nothing happened. Yeah right, you should have seen her preening around him every chance she got...this woman has been divorced three times, the last time a month ago, and just dumped her current boyfriend. Now tell me, does this speak to you like it does me???<P>Thing is, I WANT to confront him, I like Steve's advice. I am in another country so it's not like I can phone and have an hour long chat with him (Steve, I mean). So I am asking for your advice.<P>If I want to get this in the open, how do I go about it? Everyone here thinks confrontation about affairs is a BIG LB. By the way I think I have enough circumstantial evidence (LOL- cos of your handle) to get him to admit it, but it IS just putting two and two together. <P>I'd appreciate your advice, and it may help me for other reasons, too.<P>Thanks,<P>Nina<P>

Hi Nina,<P>I am happy to help you in any way I can, and to share the wealth of knowledge that Steve Harley has provided me during the last year as my H. was having an affair.<P>It sounds from your post that your H. is not living with you-is that correct? If so, it may be more difficult in some ways to get him to admit to an affair, but in some ways it may be easier to actually "catch" him-you can see if there are strange vehicles in his driveway late at night, and who, if anyone, answers the phone at 3:00 AM. You can drop by unexpectedly and see what his demeanor is like; nervous, angry, closing doors, etc.<P>I will tell you what Dr. Harley advised me to do, and then I'll tell you what I actually did. Let me just say that if I had it to do all over again I would have followed Dr. Harley's advice to a "T"!<P>During my second session last summer with Dr. Harley, he told me he thought my H. was having an affair of some sort. He told me it was imperative that I continue Plan A, be patient, and create a very forgiving environment at home. He said to not push, but if the opportunity came up to have a "relationship talk" I should ask if there was someone else in the picture and when he denied it (because they all do) I should say something like "I feel if we work together on our marriage, we can overcome any and all problems, even an affair". Then, in the upcoming future, mention a friend's affair or an article you read about affairs, or heck, even make something up that you read or saw on television and make it clearly evident to him that you are capable of forgiving an affair. Dr. Harley said it may take time to lay the ground work to create a loving and forgiving environment that is comfortable for the WS to confess in, but Harley believes that it eventually happens if you do it right, and he said that you want to portray the image of being "a soft place for the WS to fall".<P>Okay, my Plan A was far from flawless, and I am not always known to be a patient person, so the very day I counseled with Dr. Harley, I originated a relationship talk and flat out asked him if he was having an affair because Dr. Harley thinks so. He implicitly replied that he could never do such a horrible thing to me and keep it a secret, all the while watching me go through hell because I had received the "love you but not in love with you" speech just a few weeks earlier. I BELIEVED HIM! I did however, ask him several times over the next several months if he was having an affair and he always denied it. I tried to create a forgiving environment but wasn't able to do it successfully. <P>I can't emphasize enough how timing is absolutely crucial in absolutely everything Dr. Harley recommends. Plan A should only be carried out as long as you can do it flawlessly (I burned myself out rather quickly and after time Plan A was ineffective for me because I would get angry and LB often). For Plan B to be effective it should be followed on the heels of a flawless Plan A. The moral of the story is when you can no longer Plan A effectively, it may very well be time for Plan B. You want the WS to be left alone with memories of your Plan A and how good of a person you are. You also want to be sure you have enough love left for the WS, so if you feel as though your love for WS is fading fast, it is time for Plan B (Plan B protects the remaining love you have and also prepares you for divorce if that is what ends up taking place).<P>I know from experience that once you catch a normally honest spouse in a lie, there is a reason for it and it usually involves an affair of some sort. <P>I hope I have helped you somewhat. Let me know if I can be of further help to you!<P>Good luck!<P>P.S. I just read your "cavalry" post and now have more information on your situation. My heart breaks for you and the situation you are in-I can and do relate to everything you are going through! <P>Let me ask you this-IF your H. is having affair #2, do you really still want to be married to him? How is your self-esteem doing throughout all of this? Are you currently in counseling (for yourself)? These are all personal questions that you need not answer to anyone but yourself-BUT know this, you do need to answer them.<P>Luckily I had self-esteem by being on this website and seeing different affair situations here and knowing it was not my fault. Plan A helped me in the self esteem dept. as well. I haven't had any individual counseling and for now I don't feel as though I need it-that may change when my divorce is final. Sometimes when we try so hard and for so long to save a marriage we feel as though it will all be worth it when we are successful-the truth is that you need to reassess the situation from time to time and do a reality check. It is possible to focus so hard on the desired outcome that you lose sight that it may no longer be what you truly want anymore or that it is not a healthy situation for you or your children to be in. You may feel that it may also be easier for all concerned to just stay in the dysfunctional marriage mainly because you are zapped of all energy to get yourself over the final hump of divorce.<P>Please don't feel as though I am judging you in anyway because I am not. I have been through everything that you have and I know I actually hung in there too long before I decided that divorce is the only answer. I know my hard times are not over by a long shot, but at least now I am certain that there will now be an end to this madness in sight. I feel horrible for my children but I know that having one stable, happy parent is far better than living in a home with two unhappy parents who are at each other's throats on a constant basis.<P>When it comes down to decision making time, it will be yours and yours alone, but I just hope you will be in the position to be able to make a sound decision and to know with certainty that no matter what happens, YOU will be okay and happy again someday, whether it be with your H. or not! <P>My thoughts are with you!<P><p>[This message has been edited by Wifeofcop (edited August 17, 2001).]

Wifeofcop: I am going to think seriously about the strategy you've laid out here. Thanks for the info.

Thanks so much Wifeofcop. I appreciate the input. <P>I was lying in bed this morning thinking about all of this, and I found myself getting very angry at myself for putting up with it. I even flamed MB in my head...sorry, but I did.<P>If I was acting without this advice, chances are I would have left him after the first A. That was the old me. I know in my heart that MB is helping me, I really do, but I am at a low hope point right now.<P>As to the suggestions about catching him out...you may find this hard to believe, but he has not shared with me the details of his accomodation, nor a telephone number. I can only contact him at work or via his cell phone, which he keeps on voice mail, or off, or he just doesn't answer as it has caller id. As I'm writing this I'm thinking it's a huge red flag, isn't it. <P>So yes it is going to be hard for him to admit. With the other A I initiated the discussion. Like this one, he had told me someone was interested. A week passed, then during the discussion he said he took her out. I LB'd and said, "So then you took her home and slept with her (not my exact words!!)" He immediately said "Yes". So he wanted me to know about that one. This one may be a bit more difficult for him to admit because he knows I know her.<P>If it is a PA, I will leave the country because I do need to preserve my love for him, and I just can't fight this any more...he has to work it out himself. For us it has been a hard two years, away from our family, lots and lots of stress builders in our lives. He can't see that any of that contributed to his state of mind or feelings for me. I truly believe it is a MLC, and I want to be there for him when he gets out of it...but now my self esteem is very low. I am trying MB to also help me keep my dignity in this. <P>Counselling...I don't do it, but I have been considering it. But it would have to be the right person. In our one and only counselling session, I believe the c led him into saying he wanted a divorce. Never asked him why he felt the way he does. She asked me how I felt, but not him, and I had wanted his feelings to be examined, so I could have something to work with. She was really unhelpful, to say the least. <P>Anyway, I'm trying to keep my head with this thing, but it's getting harder every day not to confront him. He's coming tomorrow to see the kids...I usually have plans, but I have had to cancel them, because the people I see there know there is something between him and her, and I just don't think I can hold my head up.<P>You know I am angry at him for the OW he chose, because it has effectively cut out my whole social life, because she is part of that group. The reason is it was my thing, and I took him there. Now he gets to have all the fun...I am stuck at home. <P>Well, just venting...<P>Thanks again!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nina too:<BR>He's coming tomorrow to see the kids...I usually have plans, but I have had to cancel them, because the people I see there know there is something between him and her, and I just don't think I can hold my head up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Why not? Don't let anyone do that to you! You have done nothing wrong. <P>

Nina and DBT,<P>I edited my reply to Nina's first post and for some reason it did not show up...I wanted to tell you that I personally see nothing wrong (I actually wish I had done it myself but I never had enough "evidence" to really hold my own during an "interragation") with taking the evidence and suspicians you have and simply telling him (in person, of course) that you know all about his affair. I would keep your information extremely brief and let him do most of the talking. Tell him you know, have known for awhile and that someone close to the situation told you. I would tell him you have had a chance to think calmly about the situation and based on his thoughts RIGHT NOW, you are making a decision very quickly. Don't tell him what that decision might entail, and at that point watch his demeanor and see what he says.<P>The above is not something Harley ever mentioned and I doubt he would because it is not being 100% honest, but I feel that the sooner you get the affair out in the open, the better chance you have to save your marriage. Besides, once a WS starts lying and getting good at it, they don't stop.<P>Nina,<P>Please don't stop being social because of OW. No matter what your H. has done, you can and should hold your head up high. I think you said OW has been divorced three times, the most recent one happened within the last month and she was already seeing someone but stopped to start an affair with your H.--if even half of what I said is right, it is still terrible and you should not feel as though YOU have anything to be ashamed about!!!<P>You are obviously a great person by trying so hard to save your marriage solo and not many people can/do forgive affairs-you have forgiven one and are still married even though you are suspecting another. You expressed concern about divorce because you have children--you are obviously a caring and good mother who wants to do the best thing for your children. You are an awesome person and if anyone in your social circle knows what is going on they would tell you the same. DO NOT even think of comparing or feeling inferior to a person who is sleeping with a married man who has young children-THERE IS NO COMPARISON!!!

Thanks guysa for the words of encouragement. The thing I'm supposed to go to tomorrow night is not something she is directly involved in, but many people know her and my h, and I know definetely two of them know. One of them won't be able to restrain herself from saying something to me, and that is what I can't handle...face to face sympathy, advice, well meaning words, about it.I just break down and I don't want to. It's not like I HAVE to talk to her, but I know she will search me out and she tends not to listen when you say you don't want to talk about it.<P>It's a hard call. Also if I do this confrontation with him tomorrow, I don't think I'll be in any state to go and sing.<P>I had thought of the same white lie, but there is only one person who would have told me, and I can't put her in that position...I could say someone vaguely on the periphery of the group rang and offered sympathy. This is in fact true, but he rang my friend, not me.<P>I fel I HAVE to do it, and I am so scared that I have been in a state all day. But I think I have the right to know.<P>

Nina,<P>You do have the right to know! Let me say this, if you are actually planning your own D-day, take precautions, if your hunches are correct, you will be devastated. Make plans for the kids if you can to be away for awhile. Stock up on groceries and tie up loose ends around the house-you'll be of no earthly good to anyone or anything for a few days...that advice might sound crazy but I remember my D-day when H. told me about his affair, he did not plan it at all, he just blurted it out and then took the kids away overnight. I was left all alone and was in a state of complete shock. Make things as easy on yourself as possible!<P>You said above that you don't have his phone number and don't know where he lives. At the time I suspected my H's affair I had a few friends who offered to follow H. to see where he was spending all his time. I never took anyone up on it, but looking back I sure wish I would have, I would have found out the truth alot sooner and I would have had concrete evidence!<P>I'll be thinking about you! Post back about what you decide to do!!<BR>

Wifeofcop,<P>I know I'll be dvastated, I was the first time, and I was on Thursday when he told me he took her out. I don't think it could get worse than now...but of course the actual FACTS presented may be the clincher.<P>I am on a rapid downward spiral...he's not doing much better. I want things out, so I can recover, whether it's with him or not, and get on with my life. At the moment I am stagnated and cannot MOVE for thinking the worst. More and more stuff is coming into my head. For example when he was here I was snooping for a while. I found a receipt for something he bought, with an unfamiliar shopping centre's name on it. I looked it up and guess what, the shopping centre was one suburb over from where OW lives. This was at least 6 weeks before he left. What the hell was he doing an hour's drive from home and co-incidentally near her house??? Coincidence, bull****. But at the time I DISMISSED IT...never asked him why he went all the way over there.<P>I feel like if I know he is having the actual affair, I will then move to Plan B (been Plan A'ing since the first affair)and I will go to Australia with the knowledge that I did everything, and until OW is out of the picture, there's no point being here.<P>Thanks for letting me vent...usually doing that helps, but for some reason it hasn't the last couple of days...wish it would!