Greetings and salutations,<p> The D&D board is a new place to post for me. I am just struggling with the question when do I really know it's time to pull the plug on the marriage. What was the deciding factor for you? Where you close to 100% sure or did you have doubts when you make the decision to D.<p> Short history. W was WS with her boss while traveling. This was about 2 years after the birth of child #2. Lied about it, kicked me out saying I was crazy, jealous, violent. I'll buy #2, and a bit of #1 due to EMA circumstances. Went to shirk 1st time in life, after 6 sessions told me You're good, can't help out anymore without wives participation. Affair secretly continued, I moved back in after 3 months (guestroom), to be maid and babysitter so she could travel for business with OM. She admitted EMA 3 months later with pressure and hard evidence from me. Had been Plan-Aing OK up to that point. Held her hand upon news told her it would all be OK. I counseled with S. Harley, did a really good plan-a . She continued EMA for another 6 months, lying the entire time. She was gone 4 out of 5 days a week all during the EMA. Wouldn't voluntarily talk, ever. Last 3 months of EMA told me we were done (separated), She wasn't going to stop seeing OM, At best we are roommates for kid's sake and go find someone else. I asked for plan B, she wouldn't do it. <p>She started slipping from a mild depression into much deeper one, sleeping 10-12 hours a night and 3-4 hour naps (while home). I went against my better judgment and decided not all therapies (MB) are good for all folks and although I preferred to be a honest & noble husband (always had), MB was not working, so why not listen to her try it her way, maybe she knows best. As screwed up as it sounds, I though maybe she needed me to see other people so she could feel better about herself. So, started dating a few people and ended up finding someone who I liked and genuinely seemed to care about me. Needless to say I committed adultery. <p>After about 6 weeks of seeing this person, I just lost all interest. I couldn't believe what I had done, or couldn't believe that I found a woman who would sleep with a married (as bad as it was) man attractive. So I broke it off and dealt with all the shame I had placed on my self. Wife never asked what I was doing & I never offered. Finally Wife lies about her location on a trip and hold over an extra night (bad weather) heard that one before and didn't care. Finally comes home and reams me because it's over between her and OM, all my fault, she's done with me. Just pissed to the gills and screaming. No other explanations, just pissed, yelling and I was the problem. <p>Next 6 months go by, I have a renewed plan-a around the holidays, Things get slightly better, I tell her about my OW. Sh_t hits the fan. Still (today) hasn't forgiven me for that. Now a year later still doesn't talk much, sex is only going through the motions after almost begging. Depression stays at about the same level. <p>Finally 2 months ago got her to see shrink and GP under threat of I could have divorce judge have you evaluated for custody purposes, so you might as well go know and prove to me that you're OK. Very Lbing discussion on my part. She went and GP put her on Paxil. I have less faith in her shrink (divorced female), who tells her things like wife shouldn't feel responsible for me feeling down when she treats me poorly. Also worth noting is wife will not unless prodded apologize for anything, and with some prodding might get out an obligation only "I'm sorry" and that's the end of it. <p>This apology thing is not over minor type stuff. For example, last Friday she finally decided to act upon a "love coupon" fantasy date thing that she had initially given me and I redeemed 3 months ago. Kids are at grandparents for the night, wife has hotel room 2 blocks from the entertainment district. I'm told to go down to a specific bar with my friends and she'll come seduce me. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ..all cool. I'm drinking with buddies, she shows up, buddies are social but give us space. We're all having fun, eat, drink some more, couple hours go by and I ask very nicely if we can go a couple times. She says kids are taken care of for the night we don't get out much, let's stay longer. OK it is fun, I'll hang longer. 2 hours later, I ask to go again, same reply. Now it's time for me to switch to water, I've been there much longer than I expected when I started drinking 6 hours prior. I hold my alcohol very well and am still in complete control, but I know any more alcohol will minimize any of the planned festivities later. 45 minutes later (12:30am) I state (not ask) I need to go. She blows up saying I'm jealous that she's talking to other women (trying to introduce one of my buddies to) and bar tenders. Calls me everything but a white man and goes to close out that tab telling me that we'll leave but I'm not touching her tonight. <p>I'm totally shocked at her reaction, I tell her that I didn't mean to upset her, and we can stay. I just didn't want to go back to the romm and pass out on her. Go to the outside bar (buddies are hanging out there) and order a drink while she insists on closing the tab. She comes outside, I offer to get her something from the bar. Verbal abuse continues, Tells me my mood swing scare her, I'm jealous, acting like a f_ckin [censored] and calls me a cocks_cker in front of my friends then leaves. I follow behind her 10-15 minutes later. Call her on cell to get the room number. She refuses to tell me, continues cursing me. I don't have a car (Buddies drove me there). I beg for room number.... 30 minutes and 2 hang-ups (by her) later she finally gives it to me. <p>I enter the room, say I'm sorry for whatever I did to upset you, I'm not sure what it is, could you tell me, I just want to end hostilities. She tells me, you ought to know what you did, get out of here and get your own room and she's done talking. I get a cab to friend's house (where car is) and drive home (very stupid). <p>Next day...4 PM. I'm still a son-o-b_tch in her eyes. I tell her that unlike some other of her outbursts, no need to debate what happened, this time we have witnesses (buddies). One of which we have known for 13 years and she has great respect for. I said let's just call him and ask him what he saw. She decides that I'm probably right about her actions being totally unprovoked and way out of line. Still no "I'm sorry" until I ask. Next day, her last day in town this week she sleeps 75% of day away, claiming because of her period just started. Still no other words, or actions, just like it never happened. <p>OK so it's not so short. Sorry<p>BTW- She was never, ever anything like this before her EMA. Not even close. She was probably the sanest, most even keeled , happy go lucky woman I had ever met. <p>Advice..opinions..your breaking point story. <p>Thank you in advance
HI<p>[ October 25, 2001: Message edited by: Hi Infidelity ]</p>

{{{{{{{{{{hi}}}}}}}}}}<p>wow,<p>sounds like your w is manic. maybe she needs to see doctor again for another diagnosis. <p>I am sorry that you have to go through those abusive outbursts. a rager can make one feel really bad...(personal experience)<p>it's a very hard situation to live in and with... hang in there and don't loose yourself in it... don't forget to pray..<p>kim...

First point (don't take this personally): Do you like yourself?<p>Advice:
1. Get rid of her. When she is out on her own and decides to get help, then maybe things will turn around. Some people will just never see the light of day but that is the price they pay for self absorbtion. Lots of people will just never get it.
2. Put all energy into the well being of the children. Be there for them if you cannot get full custody but do fight for them.

Okieman,<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Okieman:
<strong>First point (don't take this personally): Do you like yourself?.</strong><hr></blockquote><p> No offence taken. That is the same general thoughts I've been having, of "why do I continue to do this" I used to like myself quite a bit (maybe too much), but now&#8230;.It's a much more difficult question. I like the fact that I've been a good husband and father, that I have fought a good and predominately fair battle for my family, that I have tried to help her and support her through out most of this as a "Giver". But now my "Taker" is in full control with engine revved to the redline. I've stood up to things that I never thought I could take and put my heart on the line several times. To seriously answer your question, I like most of how I've handled this situation but I'm beginning to not like what I see when I look in the mirror or read in my post. <p>I was a very prideful man and have done some extraordinary things with my life. I know pride can be the death of a relationship and was not afraid to humble myself to her, but it just seems as if that humility is taken for granted. <p>The truly amazing thing to me is, how much in love and how well we got along our first 10 years together. I assumed that once the EMA was over (ever thought she still works with him) that she would slowly come to her senses. Is it possible that an EMA can cause some folks to loose it forever&#8230; that they are changed for life just not in a lived and learned kinda way?

HI - I would argue you cannot function under current conditions; it just requires too much attention and energy. Also , I think w's angry outbursts have nothing, nothing, to do with you. <p> I would highly recommend Harriet Lerner's book " The Dance of Connection - how to talk to someone when you're mad, hurt, frustrated, insulted, betrayed or desperate". It seems apologies from the betrayer are rare. I would argue it may be next to impoosible in you wife's current condition.<p>Are you able to take care of you?

Prayers for your health and peace, and that your wife can learn to see.

Hey, no offense intended, but get rid of this psycho !!!

<small>[ August 08, 2004, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

Family_Man - Your augment seems to have hit the nail on the head on the functioning part. Living with depression in the house can be contagious. I think you're real close on the cause, I personally feel they have nothing to do with my actions but everything to do with me. I think real cause lies somewhere between your view and Laura-lees statement "that she loves me". I feel like she behaves this way because she fully believed that she was in love with the OM and had to hate me to do it. During that time she manifested all kinds of reasons to hate me. One of the better ones was I was a violent person and was going to hit her when I found out about the affair. Makes for a good Jerry Springer episode, but the only thing I have ever hit in the 13 years we've been together was a door and she was on the opposite side of the room. Never a threat, just no plausible explanation for those thoughts. Totally wigged her out when I held her and told her we would be OK after she finally confessed. So it's kinda like she hates me for sticking around and being a decent guy about it all. Yes&#8230;I'm still able to care for me, but each day that seems harder and harder. None of my needs are being met, it's more like anti needs are being fed to me. The whole seduce me at the bar thing was about the only thing I've had to look forward to for a while. What's the ole saying "never set your expectations to high, If you do the fall will hurt even more"<p>Dirtboy - Thank you for taking the time to post. But I'd just assume you pass my threads over from here on out. This is still the mother of my children and someone I was once deeply in love with.<p>Laura-Lee - Interestingly enough, Her counselor told her that "she was in love with me, but detached from me" followed by "I've never seen that before". I guess that's why they call it a practice. I agree with you that she probably still loves me. Unfortunately, Men who beat their wives say that deep down they love them too. My reactions to her are mostly attempts at calm to semi-calm discussions, followed by me feeling bad for myself when her only reaction is silence. My goals are to be happy, appreciated and loved. Actually as I write this, I just realized, I have most of those things outside my home with my friends and family. Right now I feel like a prisoner here. I can be a stand up guy and keep this up with my wife, possibly at the cost of my own sanity and further self esteem or stand-up for my children and my needs. <p>BTW - kids (D#1 is 6, D#2 is 4) normal questions whenever we are coming home from somewhere. "Is mommy home?" "Is mommy awake?" and "why does Mommy sleep so much? She sure does like naps!"<p>
It's just kinda like I've bottomed out with the whole MB thing. Don&#8217;t know if I can do it anymore. I believe in its principles and that it's the best approach in most cases. It's just when your giver is gone&#8230;MB is not a valid option anymore. <p>I can totally understand why people think about affairs as an option these days. I won't do it, but today it would almost seem like a bandage (or tourniquet) to stop the blood loss, while the BS heals/changes/or leaves. Just someone to share life with again. That was my heart talking, my mind knows this would only cause a bigger Cluster-F_ck, and hurt everyone involved, but I do now understand how some folks get in that situation now. <p>HI

The following thoughts struck a chord with me.<p>From laura_lee,
As I read about her, for whatever it is worth, it seems to me that she is very conflicted. She loves you... and that's why she hates you... as she is conflicted about her affair... and extremely depressed.<p>From Hi Infidelity,
Living with depression in the house can be contagious.<p>I feel like she behaves this way because she fully believed that she was in love with the OM and had to hate me to do it. During that time she manifested all kinds of reasons to hate me. One of the better ones was I was a violent person and was going to hit her when I found out about the affair. Makes for a good Jerry Springer episode, but the only thing I have ever hit in the 13 years we've been together was a door and she was on the opposite side of the room. Never a threat, just no plausible explanation for those thoughts.<p>BTW - kids (D#1 is 6, D#2 is 4) normal questions whenever we are coming home from somewhere. "Is mommy home?" "Is mommy awake?" and "why does Mommy sleep so much? She sure does like naps!"<p>
All of the above statements describe my situation VERY well. As the stories are always so similar, what comes next in the script?<p>Kevin<p>[ October 26, 2001: Message edited by: father of 1, husband of 0 ]</p>

Hi Infidelity<p>Your wife is exhibiting the typical crazy behavior of a fogged in individual who is all feelings, and who has lost her radar. She is in complete hot affair addiction withdrawal. This behavior is very typical, and just outlasting her by being calm, sympathizing with her as this must be very difficult for her, (and state what her position is, losing a hot affair)<p>She is not really mad at you, this is all typical of a WS's misplaced blame. In reality, she is very angry at herself, for 1) believing that she wasted time being married to you after having such a hot affair, 2) and having the hot affair fizzle. It is both a terrible blow to her self image to have torched her family and to have been torched by the affair partner.<p>OK, she is in acute addiction withdrawal, she had her cake and ate it too, and all of a sudden, has a violent case of vomiting, and she needs counseling, heavy duty. My suggestion is to get her to marriage counseling, with both of you present. This step is critical, because it will lay the groundwork for your being the responsible parent. But also it will be more stabilizing for you to be seen as the strong, logical one.<p>BTW, how were her parents' marriage? anything resembling this in her past that she could have learned from? Or is she totally isolated from her parents? was she a social drop out in high school / college?<p>Also, i would bet that your prior 10 years were not as happy for her as they were for you. But i also think she is reacting so violently because she has learned these actions somewhere before. So she needs lots of counseling, and i would not give up. I would forget sex right now, that will not help her, but the Plan A is exactly the right plan, stable, understanding, not apologizing, and NO expectations of her apologizing. <p>Also, how long was she involved with OM? a typical affair lasts 6-12 months, then it fizzles due to the impossibility of the situation without resolution, and because she has not done anything legal, she knows she is wrong, and is having a very hard time accepting this. My X did stuff very similar, and in hindsight, i should have just stayed and forced her to do all the legal paperwork, while I went about my business taking care of the kids first, and the house second. in time, she will come to see how she is treating people, and herself.<p>However, the methadone in this situation is your actions, calm, understanding, sympathizing, (since you understand it, you went through it also) and do not spend alot of time chasing her, she would be getting way too much attention/control for being irresponsible. the best is to pretend, (as hard as it may seem or be) is to ignore what happened, and act as if nothing has happened. This will bring back some stability to her. . . <p>anyway, don't give up, this is the time you really need plan a, and you sanity.<p>maybe take a weekend by yourself to get some restored energy, and keep on going!<p>WIFTTy

WhenIfindthetime,<p> I guess I should start out by saying that her EMA has supposably been over for a little over a year. Although she still works with him and regularly travels to HQ where he is based. IF there is something still going on between them, I can't see it, but it would not be hard to hide from me since she knows most all my surveillance techniques. In fact, I think the OM might have moved on to his next OP.<p>
<strong>BTW, how were her parents' marriage? anything resembling this in her past that she could have learned from?</strong><p>
Her parents are still married in their mid to late 60s and do not have any EMAs in the past that I've ever heard about. They are from rural (but very blue blooded) area New England. Mother is a descendant of Betsy Ross. Moved down here to FLA bout 10 years ago. Their relationship is matriarchal and very interesting to say the least. Mother refuses to drive (35 years), or work (pretty much ever), very domineering to father, stone cold while still being a bit social. Father is a happy go lucky, never hurried or bothered type of guy (his kids & my kids favorite). He comes off as a complete idiot at times, but actually this seems to be more of an act than fact. Kinda like that old Bill Cosby stand-up special (Himself), Where Bill says, "I've seen the bosses job and I don't want it". I have never seen the two of them show any type of public displays of affection towards one another. The father hugs every one of his kids and son/daughter in laws, a lot. More than I was comfortable with in the beginning. One similarity I have seen between wife and her mother is both of them clams up when they are upset, silence is used as punishment. Before Wife and I got married we lived together for 2-3 years, her mother refused to talk to her for almost 2 years because this upset her, even after we were engaged. I pointed this out to wife few months back, that her behavior about not talking when she is upset seems a lot like Mom. She said that this was a New England type of behavior, very proper, handed down from Victorian Great Britain. Any folks from New England care to comment, I don't know since Boston is the only place up there I've ever visited. <p>I never thought about her mother's reaction to living together at the time, since wife always said not to worry about it and acted like it was funny. I also never noticed that wife never made any effort to call mom and bury the hatchet, even when I would offer to fly up to meet them with her. Blinded by love I guess. Seems so strange to me now, I can&#8217;t think of anything I could ever do that would make my mother not talk to me for years. I could be an ax murderer and she will still talk to me about it. In hindsight I should have paid more attention to that old wife's' tale "Want to see what you girlfriend will be line in 20 years, just look at her mother" <p>Heard stories of one of her fathers brothers that they used to do lots of family things with (vacation & camp) when wife was very young (5-10 years), but something happened between them (brothers) and they haven&#8217;t spoken in the last 15-20 years. Once again, very strange to me. <p>The only other comment I have about her mother that might be relevant was in her mid to late 30's she abandoned Catholicism and became a Jehovah Witness. Father, wife and oldest sister did not. Younger brother converted for a while. So I guess holidays and b-days were a bit chaotic for a long time. In fact her mother did not start participating in any of that type of thing until they moved down here & we had children. I don&#8217;t know too much about JWs other than what her mother has told me and the only part that really bothers me is according to her; They are not allowed to attend any type of function with other religions overtones like a Jewish wedding, Muslim funeral, family birthday or Xmas. Just seems strange to me, growing up I went to Baptist church on one side of my family and Methodist on the other. Our faith was all that mattered. It was not blasphemy for us to attend a Muslim Mosque, of Jewish Temple with friends for weddings and such. In fact I thought the traditions of my first Jewish friend in grade school was pretty cool. Didn&#8217;t change mine views, just what's life without diversity and tolerance. <p>
I'm from the Mid-West (Iowa), the way I was raised was if you had a problem (family member or not), it was discussed and resolved (or at least mostly) around the kitchen table. Might occasionally be a raised voice or even more rare a pounded fist (like a gavel) on the table, but you always walked away from that table feeling understanding about everyone's viewpoint and they understood and respected yours. So moping or storming around was never more than a one-day event. My wife on the other hand truly believes and acts (last 2-3 years only) upon any discussion or disagreement is a fight no matter how calm and non-provoking the discussion might be.<p><strong>Or is she totally isolated from her parents? was she a social drop out in high school / college?</strong><p>
Even though they live 5 minutes from us, She became very isolated from them during the PA. Now she's warmed up to them a bit, but still not like before. Her parents were not the only ones she cut off at that time. She cut off most contact with her Brother & Sister who lived less than an hour away and also completely stopped seeing any of her friends. Brother & Sister relationship is a little better, still doesn't see her old friends like before. All her new friends are all long distance relationships from work and mostly male. No social life here in town unless it is with my friends and me. Very bothering since she was always very social up to the point where when she became pregnant with 2nd child. Even though we/she didn't get out much with one toddler, she still talked with friends on the phone often.<p><strong>Also, how long was she involved with OM? </strong><p>She had a PA for at least a year that I know of, EA is much harder to determine since she does not believe in the concept so she will not discuss. <p><strong>I should have just stayed and forced her to do all the legal paperwork</strong><p>Well one thing I have learned throughout all this is that you can't force anyone to do anything. Seems far from Plan-A. If I file the paperwork it would be for me, without significant expectations of her reaction.<p><strong>anyway, don't give up, this is the time you really need plan a, and you sanity</strong><p>Boy it sure feels like my Plan-A bucket is dry. I just have the urge to re-write my life with her not holding a significant portion of it. Hence, my original question "when did you know it was time?"<p><strong>maybe take a weekend by yourself to get some restored energy, and keep on going!</strong><p>I'm way ahead of you on this front. Down here in the Tampa Bay area we have a Halloween Street party known as Guavaween. Normally draws anywhere from 80,000 to 200,000 people depending on the weather. Kind of our own version of Marti Gras. Little decadent but always entertaining. I'm already planning to spend the better part of the weekend with buddies down there. Wifes flight is due back tonight, so she can watch the kids. I've listed a few links for Guavaween below. For anyone ever looking for a fun weekend get away from else where in the US (next year), this is a great time and flights/hotels are normally cheap this time of year. <p>http://www.cc-events.org/gw/
http://www.guavaween.com/nav.html
http://www.ybortimes.com/guavaween.html<p>[ October 26, 2001: Message edited by: Hi Infidelity ]</p>

well, she learned well from her mom, as alot of woman do, just like my X. I suspect she learned alot more from her mom than you know, or that she has told you. Pinting it out will not do any good, use the knowledge for yourself.<p>Yes, I am a 10th or 11th generation New Englander, with very famous relatives from the original family, and that is an excuse. there is some truth to stiff upper lip british roots, but that is in response to bad news handed to you where you have no choice. Not in relating to human beings, or family relatives.<p>It appears that both of the women could be T personalities, with very low F's, but alot of these types of behaviors are learned, and passed down through families. Now, her father's act cope be a coping mechanism or overcompensation for the mom's stone coldness. there could be lots of resentment in the mom's past, but if silence is the method of communication, there would be little way to find out about it, except through her dad.<p>It would be interesting to get his side of the story, but the situation could be that her mom passed down the learning point that marriage is for having kids, and after that, its a prison of sorts. or that she passed down that men only want one thing, sex or control, and it is your responsibility to rebel.<p>anyway, i think if you did more digging you would find more answers, ones that you would not necessarily like, although you will have to live with them UNLESS wife sees it and wants to change. the answer will come down to your wife's loyalties, ultimately, either she will be more loyal to you or to her mom. . . . once you figure that out, you will have your answer. . . .<p>that's where i found my answer, and mine was that she wanted a marriage like her parent's and tried all the tricks her mom did to make my XFIL a man servant, and dependent on her. . . . but it didn't work on a ruggedly independent normal to high self esteemed person. . . . <p>good luck
WIFTTy

could there be a drinking problem, try rebuilding and working on relationship in nonalcohol related environments. good luck.

Trying to edit...double post<p>[ October 26, 2001: Message edited by: Hi Infidelity ]</p>

WhenIfindthetime,<p><strong>It appears that both of the women could be T personalities, with very low F's, but allot of these types of behaviors are learned.</strong><p>Not familiar with this personality profile. Any insights or links you could send my way.

WhenIfindthetime,<p><strong> It would be interesting to get his side of the story </strong><p> I agree, I've asked her father to go out to watch NFL with me to explore a little deeper. Doubt he would ever comment, but I might give it a go.<p><strong> but it didn't work on a ruggedly independent normal to high self esteemed person </strong><p> Sounds much like myself&#8230;I can be very humble but long-term doormat I'm not<p>
honey<p><strong> could there be a drinking problem, try rebuilding and working on relationship in nonalcohol related environments </strong><p>I think so to some extent, She has even commented on her relationship with OM started under the influence of heavy alcohol. And even wondered if the events of last weekend might have something to do with the mixture of alcohol and her meds Paxil. I've tried to take the lead when we go out to dinner or lunch by ordering Ice Tea or soda, but often she'll order a beer anyways. If I mentioned it, we would be back in that you&#8217;re trying to control my life thing again. A couple of drinks seems very normal to her these days since she switched careers from medical to sales and marketing (2-3 years ago coinciding with start of EMA).

was the first career the expected career? pushed on her from FOO expectations? could the career change be a rebellion against the FOO expectations, and her becoming true to her self?<p>These snaps occur, its a break from an overly controlled childhood, which is possible, given her apparent mom's controlling behavior. The behavior is "I'll support you when you agree with me" not "I'll support you because I love you"<p>could she have been a "good" child during her at home years. . . ?<p>telephone call . . gotta run<p>WIFTTy

<small>[ August 08, 2004, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

Hmmmm. I was wondering about a drinking problem too. All that sleeping. You mentioned a few drinks being normal for her. Does she drink every day? Something to keep in the back of your mind, men develop alcoholism usually in their teens and twenties whereas women are more inclined to develop alcoholism later in life.<p>It also strikes me that her dramatic change in behavior/personality (from the sensible, level-headed woman you married) could be withdrawal from some addiction or another. What I mean is that when alcoholics stop drinking, it is usually just the beginning of recovery, and oftentimes things can get much worse because now they actually have to DEAL with whatever problems the alcohol was helping them cope with. Similarly, her EA/PA was like an addiction keeping her from dealing with whatever problems she was trying to avoid in the marriage. Now that the EA/PA is over, she has nothing to help her cope and is still not willing to face the issues so she becomes angry and abusive. <p>That&#8217;s just what came to mind when I read your story. You might want to do some thinking about that possibility.

<strong> I was wondering about a drinking problem too. All that sleeping. You mentioned a few drinks being normal for her </strong><p>No she doesn&#8217;t drink every day, quite often goes several days without a drink. I tend to look at this aspect mostly as an easy an obvious excuse a more deep-seated reasons. But never the less, still a minor factor in the dance.<p>[ October 26, 2001: Message edited by: Hi Infidelity ]</p>