I want to know whether anyone has used the Love Must Be Tough techniques? Also, I would like to know whether it is commen for people to file for divorce or actually divorce and later reconcile?

Hi there-<p>Have you tried them? They seem to go against a lot of the Plan A principles other than the fact that you can only change yourself and therefore should take care of yourself. Maybe it's just me, but Plan A seems to recommend being a doormat while at the same time focusing on yourself. LMBT opposes the doormat approach. I am just in the process of reading the book myself so I can't say I've used the techniques. I can attest to one thing though and that is that although my WH is still with the OW whenever I stand my ground and stick up for myself I get much further with him. It's like they say nobody wants a clingly, insecure person. I agree with the LMBT book in the principle that you get more from people when you act like someone who deserves respect. Besides, what have you really got to lose.<p>As for your other question, there seem to be quite a few people who get back together after the divorce. <p>Take care,
K

My brother seems to have recently used the Love Must Be Tough technique with great success.<p>His wife recently filed on him. She seemed to be involved with someone else.<p>I told him to tell her that he loves her and if that's what she wants then fine. He said that this ran counter to the advice he was getting from others. He got a lawyer as I instructed him to do and quickly went about making the arrangements with her to split everything and set up child support and visitation.<p>When they went to court, she walked out uncertain if a divorce is what she wants. She knew her first marriage had to end and felt good about it. (1st husband was a drug dealer) This time, she felt different.<p>Set them free. It's the only way to keep them.<p>If they feel trapped in a "bad" marriage, attempts to keep them will only intensify the trapped feeling and they will only want to escape more.<p>I earned my experience the hard way. I hope it will help my brother.<p>Kevin

The reason I filed for divorce is that I felt I had no other choice. You see after I gave my wife the choice of staying or leaving, she decided that she was not going to moved and still chase after a homosexual with a partner(I kid you not). She told me that she was not going to move out because she had a house and child. My attorney told me that I had no grounds to legally get her out of house unless she was abusive to me or my son. Even my christian marriage counselor thought that I had no other options. I am willing to reconcile and drop legal action; however, she has to work on marriage and prove that she is legit.

This is a continuance of my other message. <p>
I still want to reconcile, but I cannot allow her to walk all over me without consequences. My attorney told me that if I want child custody, I better stay in that house. So as a result of her not moving out, we have been a terrible living situation. What do you think about this made for tv movie?

Hi Petvet ~<p>I filed for divorce and had it end in reconciliation. My behavior during my H's A was probably more Dobson than Plan A - however, I don't agree that Plan A is about being a doormat.<p>I filed for divorce, but put it on hold while going thru the last 2 months of my pregnancy. H asked to reconcile a month after - so I put it on hold again. I reopened my divorce (with Steve Harley's recommendation) several months later after I discovered that while my H had stopped with the OW, he was dating other women thru a personals ad on the internet.<p>I had to file for divorce. My state doesn't recognize legal separation. The only way to make sure that I had personal and financial protections in place was to file.<p>The night before our first court date, he came over and initiated a conversation about what I needed to stop the divorce and let him come home.<p>I had my list of "demands" so to speak, and he met them. We are 5 months into a real recovery now.<p>I think plan A is about putting the focus where it always should have been - on yourself, taking responsiblity for your part of the marriage and for your own individual growth. Drawing some boundaries doesn't seem to be inconsistent with that. Plan A is hard, but I don't think it was ever intended to be doormathood.

Thank you BrambleRose for telling me about your situation. Your comments have given me hope that I am doing the right thing. I think my situation will end like yours when it all said and done. Many people do not understand why I am maintaining hope for a reconciliation after filing for a divorce. Many people feel that you either file for divorce and mean it or don't do it. What was your experience in matters like this?

Petvet,<p>Do not file for divorce, unless you mean it. In this, I mean: you will continue on the path and will be divorced, unless your spouse gives up the OP and agrees to the extraordinary precautions needed for your marriage to thrive. <p>Filing for divorce can not be used as a manipulation tool, because you might well end up divorced! You should only file because you no longer want to participate in the situation as is, and you need to protect yourself and your children financially, emotionally, etc. <p>It is OK to still be open to reconciliation, even though you have filed. However, the reality is that you might very well end up divorced, and you need to ensure that you are able to accept that if it comes to pass.<p>I may have misinterpreted your posts, but I somehow got the impression that you filed as a "manipulation tool", and that is risky, risky business, in my opinion.<p>Take care, Desiree

Petvet ~<p>Dittos to what Roll Me Away said.<p>Do NOT file for divorce if you are not willing to have that be the outcome. Do NOT use divorce as a threat or a manipulation.<p>I filed because 1. I had to, and 2. I was that completely accepting of the reality of my situation and who my H was.<p>I am not divorced because my H decided to do something different because of my Plan A and letting go of him - NOT because I "woke him up" with the divorce papers or anything else.<p>If you can, read my profile on Just Found Out, and perhaps do a search for posts on this forum at the end of June/early July of this year.<p>If you file, you need to be willing to accept the outcome - that you will not be married anymore.

Roll Me Away and BrambleRose are right on the nose.For the past three years,I tried everything to get my wife on the right track.On July 3rd,I had enough after finding out that she was still pursuing this person she says is gay with a lover.She is crazy about this person.I filed for divorce in late July because I felt that I had no other options.I could either choose to do something or live the rest of my life on a rollercoaster.Yes,I thought the divorce filing would wake her up,it has not.I pray that my marriage won't end,but I'm tired of the lies.

Continuance of previous reply.<p>I cannot say that I am prepared to be divorced if it comes to past.I will have to cross that bridge when I get there.Yesterday, my attorney had a long talk with me that I cannot make someone do right and only she can make that decision. Attorney told me to kill her with kindness.I hope and hope that she will come around.In the next week,attorney will submit to wife a 50 (?) interrogotory with (?) dealing with the OP.I hope this will put pressure on wife to reconsider.

Continuance of Reply.<p>BrambleRose and Roll Me Away: what alternatives did I have outside of filing for divorce. I tried Plan A and B. It was difficult to implement Plan B because she would move out and my attorney advised me against moving out because of child custody considerations, so I went to the Tough Love concept. What other options did I have? Please tell me.

Petvet,<p>I wish I had some "magic" answers for you. Alas, I do not. I can definitely understand how you feel - between a rock and a hard place.<p>Know this - only YOU can decide if it is time to give up on your W as a "lost cause". These are very personal decisions, because the ramifications of hanging on for more, or giving up and filing for divorce, each have their own problems for you to have to deal with.<p>I understand that you feel you have no more options, so divorce seems at least a way to stop the vivious cycle of hurt. It is true, that if you can accept the divorce, it will probably ease the pain of betrayal, because your W will will be doing the same things she is currently doing, but she will no longer be your legal wife. Maybe psychological semantics, but that fact helped me tremendously. I divorced - I initiated the divorce. I would have much preferred to have reconciled with my exH, but he would have no part of it. <p>You have been dealt something, and the best you can do is to decide which course will bring you the most happiness. There are many people on here who have been dealing with the affair while married a whole lot longer than I did (14 months) or even you. I think it comes down to your emotional state, your expectations about marriage and your view about the future. Again, these are highly personal situations, and we all take different roads.<p>Know this, no matter what - YOUR W WILL NOT STOP HER AFFAIR UNLESS SHE WANTS TO. Nothing else works. That is why Dr Harley describes it as an "addicition". Try to reason with an alchoholic or a drug addict or a compulsive gambler, etc. No one can be helped unless HE/SHE chooses help. Your W is stuck in the sam pit as so many of our WS's. You can do nothing more, if you have done the good Plan A, other than Plan B.<p>I can not make a decision for you. I moved on and filed for divorce because I saw no hope that my thenH would come back to the marriage or even attempt to try to change. I was waiting for nothing. He wouldn't file - but he wouldn't be honorable either. I looked at him one day and thought to myslef - this is not a person worthy of my love and truly, it was like a magic moment - the last of the love just melted away. I prayed for months for God to give me peace in my heart. The true "letting go" of my thenH brought me the peace I had prayed so long for.<p>If you are a prayerful person, please do turn to God. He does guide us if we open our hearts to listen to Him.<p>Take care, Desiree

Thanks for your comments Roll Me Away.The most important thing you said was that the only way to stop the affair is unless W wants to stop.Nothing else works.That's the bottom line. As my marriage counselor said,if w chooses to play in the mud with the pigs,let her.She is the prodigal child. I cannot wait for her to wake up and come to her senses.She may be moving out of the house soon; that will help a lot.Once that happens,I will have a hate attitude towards her.I hate her for her arrogance and responsibility.The thought that another man is probably having sex with her makes me want to throw up.Just that thought alone kills me.I see the only way I am going to accept this ordeal is to hate her as an ememy.I feel sad to say this because we have a son together but I do not know any other way of "letting go".I spit on your integrity.Saying this makes me cry.I'm sad.

Petvet,<p>Your posts continue to make me sad. Know that you are going through all the stages of grieving - grieving for the lost hopes and dreams of the family you knew and the family you dreamed would go on until you or your W died. Every person here can understand how you feel. <p>The hatred you speak of is, I hope, a part of the "anger" phase. I even went through a small cycle of hatred for my exH and the OW during the affair. It didn't last too long, though. Think about what you said - it seems as if you want to carry the banner of hatred. If you do, you will be giving away your energy and power to those (your W and the OM) who don't have your best interests at heart. Why do that? It takes a lot of effort and energy to hate. It robs you of energy for finding happiness and peace in your life.<p>A better thing for you to do is to take your focus OFF of your W and your marriage. Neither . Affairs maim our hearts, Petvet. Makes us feel wary of others and definitely knocjks our self-esteem out of orbit. Once you have done all that you can (Plan A, forgive, and be open for reconciliation) there really is nothing more to do. The rest of your efforts are wasted energy. But, YOU need to build yourself back up. To focus on SELF. If you refortify yourself, you will either be a better partner if you and your W reconcile, or you will be better sustained to face a future without her if you end up divorced.<p>Bottom line is this - and I keep going back there - you can do nothing more to help her. Focus on personal growth, and I promise you that these efforts will return to you a hundred fold. Work at letting go of the hate and the anger. They only end up destroying you. You are worthy of a wonderful life and having a fulfilling and mutually exclusive relationship with another, if that is what you choose. In time, the path to your future will be revealed to you. Spend your time now wisely - get yourself ready for the trip!!!<p>Take care, Desiree

Thanks again Roll Me Away. You are right once again. My wife informed me last night that she will be moving out starting today. She got tired of me monitoring her activities. At least now, I can implement Plan B in the reverse since I have filed for divorce. Wife is in for a rude awakening. I feel for my son. Damn her! Excuse me, I cannot help it.

Roll Me Away-My wife started packing her things up last night.It was very painful observing this.She was calling friends giving them her new address and phone number; however,she neglected to even give me her new address and phone number. She does not seem to be affected by anything-no emotions,no nothing.It's like she is arrogant.I wish God would just take me out of my misery;the torture is killing me inside.I am working on a letter to give her this weekend as part of plan B.How did your plan B work?Do you think the WS feels any emotions?I am taking life one second at a time.Yes, I am grieving.My hopes and dreams are vanishing before my very eyes.It hurts so much.

Petvet,<p>I am sorry for your continued pain. Hugs to you
{{{{{{{{Petvet}}}}}}}}} and for your son, too.<p>My Plan B was not so good at first. My exH had his office in my house. Even though he had moved out, he came to the house often to use the office. This created opportunities for us to run into each other, which really defeats the purpose of Plan B. Also, I really was terrified of Plan B. I nearly drove myself insane with "what ifs", Petvet. I just could not accept that I could not fix the situation all by myself.<p>I did counsel with Steve Harley, who helped me to see that I desperately needed to go to Plan B. My MB friends here, helped me to see that I was doing a very, very poor Plan B. I counselled with an individual counselor, too, besides Steve, for one year.<p>The act of your W moving out is a hard, hard one to accept, Petvet. I had to do it - twice. I barely was able to accept it at first, even though I suggested it to my then H, as a way for him to be able to sort through his feelings easier. He jumped at the chance and moved out and then spent all his time either with the OW or on the phone with the OW. He sure didn't appear to miss me one little bit. He virtually never called me one time just to see how I was doing. He only ever called to discuss something like finances, and I can probably count those times on one hand.<p>It HURTS, Petvet - it hurts like HELL!! I went from 127 pounds down to 100 pounds in nothing flat. I literally grieved myself sick. Every BS whose WS has moved out can identify with your feelings, Petvet. It feels like pure abandonment, and there is no other way to describe it. I know that you are feeling that same way, and it is the most awful feeling.<p>I think back to that time, and this was the worst part. Not so much the physical affair (although that hurt me so very, very much). What maimed me the most was realizing that not only did my H not love me, he really didn't even CARE about me. You see, you are not alone. The lack of care often goes hand in hand with the affair.<p>Look, all you can do is this - take some deep breaths and talk OUTLOUD to yourself (so you get the message two ways). Tell yourself that you are going to survive for the next 15 minutes. You get up and go to work. You resolve to not think about the affair and your troubles and your unhappiness for just 15 minutes at a time. Try to survive this 15 minutes. If you are successful, then try to survive the next 15 minhutes. If you break down, then go ahead and cry a bit, and then start the clock all over. Live your life in very small increments right now.<p>The bad news is this - this situation is not going to resolve itself in short order, Petvet. No matter what happens to the relationship, it won't be fixed or dissolved in a short time frame. You need your strength. You need to have your wits about you. You need to ensure the best for your son. Yet, through all of this, you do need to grieve, too. <p>At this point, all the decisions are in your W's hands. Only she can decide to come back. You can't manipulate her, entice her or guilt her back into a loving relationship with you. She has to want to come back. She is determined to go out there and "spread her wings" to see if the grass is greener or not. Remember the analogy in Dr Dobson's book - about the bird in the cage? She is determined to escape her cage and by moving out, she has done just this.<p>Are you in counseling, Petvet? Have you talked to Steve or Jennifer? Both are worth doing. They can give such super support and help. You have no choice but to ride the rollercoaster until it stops. Please try to accept that this has happened, even though you don't like it. Try to focus on your own happiness. <p>I prayed the Serenity Prayer until I was blue in the face. Prayers helped me tremendously. I also have another short prayer that I like:<p>Lord, please don't let my fear steal my faith until I land on my feet, again.<p>Have faith, Petvet. No matter what happens, you will survive and thrive, again. Have faith in God to lead you to a better place in the future. Have faith in yourself - you are worthy of love. Have faith in your family and friends - they will be there for you when you reach out and need them most. Have faith that this is just a really, really rough patch in your life, but that it won't last forever - more peaceful and happier times will come once more.<p>Remember to face this in 15 minute segments, today. I will light a candle today to remind me to send prayers your way throughout the entire day. You WILL SURVIVE this ordeal!<p>Take care, Desiree

Roll Me Away,<p>You have said something that has really hit home for me. I think the hardest thing that I had to deal with while in Plan B (I was in Plan B for about a month, but caved this weekend and I don't really know where I am right now) was not that my H had a PA- it was realizing he just did not care.<p>He just didn't care about my suffering. He didn't care to find out how I was holding up. He didn't care to find out how work was going. He didn't care about me. Truthfully, I do think he cares. But, I think he is so guilty that he is blocking me completely out of his life. That is his way of coping- not healthy at all. <p>I think you have posted some great advice Roll Me Away. I have also benefited from your posts- thanks.<p>PetVet- my thoughts are with you during this horrible time- focus on you!<p>Advice Seeker

advice seeker,<p>Yes, the pain of total rejection is a bitter pill to swallow. It really does hurt more than the affair itself, in my opinion, so I can sympathize with your pain. If my posts have helped you, I am glad. I have been here for so long - I can not leave because I have so much more to learn. Relationships are a never ending learning opportunity. Take care, friend.<p>Petvet, I am thinking of you all day today. Are you hanging in there??????<p>Desiree