RMA:The last two days have been odd.Not having W around relieves a lot of pressure,but I hate it for my son.For example,as we were pulling into the driveway yesterday, he said "where is momma?",I did not know what to say.Then he said "I should have known she would not be here". That response absolutely killed me.As I was telling my pastor today,I am so angry that I can't express anger at her anymore.I am just astounded by her stupidity.God please forgive me for saying this,I hope she gets Aids or some other sexually transmitted disease.I want her to suffer for what she has done to my son and I.

For the past two nights,W has called to speak to son.Last night,he did not want to speak to her.She tried to strike a conversation with me but she realized that I did not want to speak to her so she quickly got off the phone.Last night,she did not call at all.Interrogatories went to her attorney on Friday,so maybe that was the reason she did not call my son.The questions are really tough including relationship with OP and sexual relations.Her attorney is going to have a baby when he finds out she moved out.This will be the first major bucket of water thrown in her face.

The reason I implemented Plan B is to take myself out of the loop to prevent her from venting her frustrations on me;as a result,she will have to vent somewhere else.More than likely it will be the OP or her friends who will not want to the mess.Eventually,she will wear out her welcome.I feel so bad for my son.I absolutely hate my W for putting our son through this mess.Well,let me go to bed.He is sleeping with me.I am going to give him a hug.By the way, do you have any kids?If so, how are they doing under the circumstances?Would you have done anything different about implementing Plan A & B since ex married OW?

Petvet,<p>Yes, sounds like you are getting a bit of the relief that Plan B brings. It is a scary thing to do, but once implemented, it can take the "pressure" off in an unbelievable way.<p>Your W is now on her own. She will most likely call home when she is loney or doubting if she has done the right thing. You should only be available to her for matters concerning your son. You should always be available to her for matters concerning your son, in my opinion.<p>My children are older - they are college aged. This was hard for them, as they have been raised by my exH, although he is not their father. The absolute worst part is that he totally abandoned them, too. He has basically severed all contact with all of us, although he occasionally forwards email jokes to the youngest. It is OK for me not to have contact with him, but it has hurt my sons more than you can imagine - as if they "did" something to him, other than love him like a father. Well, this is just another fallout of affairs and something we don't understand at all, but we have come to accept this as something that just "is".<p>I am somewhat concerned about the "hatred" feelings yo have, Petvet. I hope this is just the extreme anger talking. You have every right to be angry about how things have turned out. I just want you to be able to reign it in, so that you don't do anything you later regret.<p>Your W has probably not put herself in a good position legally - I wonder if her moving out is considered abandonment in your state? Not a good thing to do. How sad for your little son to wonder where his mother is. He does need to understand that she doesn't live there anymore. Try your best not to speak ill of her, too, as this will confuse him even more. Remember that all children deserve two loving parents and in return, to love both their parents. I am sure that despite her problems right now, your W does love your son.<p>Pray for your W, Petvet. I prayed for my exH. It is the best way to bring forgiveness - true forgiveness - into your heart - by praying, earnestly praying for someone who has betrayed you.<p>Wishing you a good day, Desiree

Would it be OK if I called you Desiree instead of RMA?My anger towards my wife pertains to the fact that I want her to feel the same pain that I have felt for the past 3 1/2 years.I want her to suffer like my son and I are suffering.I AM NOT going to hurt her physically nor mentally.I VALUE LIFE.I am just trying to keep moving forward.She called the house and my mom numerous times last evening.She wanted to know where I was(a meeting)and inquired about how well I was taking care of our son.She also said that she wants to talk to me.I hope she wants to talk about our son or reconciliation;otherwise,I have nothing to say to her.

Are you happy Desiree?Will you marry again?Did you know about your exH's OP identity before filing for divorce?Was the affair ever exposed to the light of day?What have you done to move forward?Just for the record,I stopped praying for my wife when she moved out.I pray for reconciliation and my son.There is nothing I can do for her under the circumstances.Yes,I think my wife has an uphill battle on her hands in court if it gets that far.I enjoy communicating with you.You have been very helpful.The unknown is very scary if you know what I mean.

Petvet,<p>Yes, I type my name in, so anyone can use it. I can understand how you want your "retribution" - for your W to feel the pain that both you and your son are feeling. I believe that your W is probably feeling her own kind of "pain", the angst with being very, very unhappy and not knowing how to solve her dilemma. I am not equating her angst with the pain of your betrayal by any means, but in truth, I do believe that she is hurting, too. Try to remember that, Petvet.<p>While in Plan B, if you still want to reconcile, you are still going to have to come to grips with your anger. Look, say you guys do reconcile - after a bit on her own she realizes that she misses you and her son more than she thought, and she wants to come home. That is just the BEGINNING of the HARD WORK. Look at how many people do reconcile, only to find that it doesn't "work" on the first reconciliation. The WS doesn't give up the OP, even though they pledged to do so when they came home. Dr Harley's book is so right on. It happened to Jon in the book. It happened to most of the people on these boards. The first attempts are rarely successful. So, you have to think that may also happen to you, if she decides she wants to reconcile. I guess, the point I am trying to make is that all this anger is not going to help you in the long run. It may even ruin your chances for reconciliation, Petvet. She may think your anger is so great that why should she even try?<p>I know how badly you hurt. I know how angry you feel about the whole nasty business. Just don't go and shoot yourself in the foot, OK? I was not worried about you hurting your W; I am worried about you hurting your chances for reconciliation with your anger. Remember, even though you are in Plan B, you should use Plan A techniques on the occasions you and your W do interact (for purposes of your son or to discuss possible reconciliation). Try to remember what your ultimate goal is - if it is to reconcile with your W, then you need to show your Plan A changes and improvements and give her something and someone to want to come back to!<p>Yes, I do want to get married, again. I believe in marriage. I am dating someone. But, even though that relationship is going super well, it still takes a long, long time to heal from betrayal. To answer your questions: My ex had his affair with a woman who lived in another state. He met her while on a weekend trip to Florida with the guys. I found out after 2 months. It was then a horrible 14 months for me, because he never stopped contact with her. She would call my house, and once even asked me to speak to him. It hurt me beyond belief. While living at home, he left many weekends to go to FL to spend the weekend or week with her. It was so degrading. He went to one counseling session and refused to go after that. I finally asked him to leave, which he was delighted to do. I could no longer take the hurt of the open affair. Close friends knew and the children knew. I hung on because I believed this was a crisis reaction to the death of his brother (one year younger than ex) who was diagnosed with AIDS the week before ex went on his FL trip, and died 6 weeks later. I really believed that this unexpected tragedy had thrown my ex for a loop, and that one day he would "snap" out of it.<p>Yet, that never did happen. Instead, he progressed further and further with the OW. The affair was exposed to others and his family, and as far as I can tell, it really didn't affect their relationship one bit. He bought a houseboat for them to live on (she moved here from FL) and he took money from our joint savings account to do so, without my knowledge. He let Thanksgiving and Christmas pass without a word from him - he was with the OW, and the children - both his and mine, did not hear a word from him. His continued disrespectful and callous behavior finally made me lose the remaining respect I had for him. With the respect gone, it didn't take long for the remaining love to just go away. At that point, I did not see my ex as a man I would even want to date if I was single and we had just met. I filed for D, and the rest is history.<p>I have since found out that the OW, who he married 2 1/2 months after our D, was not the first OW. There were others before her. I thought we were a happy couple, so the shock of this all really took a long to sink into both my heart and my brain. As for my part, I know now that I was not giving my ex the attention and recreational companionship that he needed. I put my career and my persaonal hobbies before time in the relationship. It suffered quietly, without me realizing it, because I took it for granted. I took it for granted - that he would always be there. Hard lesson to learn the hard way: A relationship takes constant attention and nurturing to survive and to thrive.<p>Petvet, there is alot of experience here - experience garnered the hard way. Listen to the folks here. They can help you, because they have gone through the same thing. Pay attention also to posts by WS's and former WS's who post on the forum. Even if you don't agree with all things that are posted, you can at least get an understanding of where they are coming from.<p>You have to spend this time wisely, Petvet. Work on your anger and resentments. No matter what happens in your relationship, you will need to have the strength to have the energy to rebuild - either your marriage or a single life. Healing takes alot of ebergy and it doesn't happen overnight. Nurture yourself and your child. Reflect on your relationship with your W. Do you have a clear understanding of what went wrong between you two? Have you both spent anytime in trying to understand why your relationship soured? If she won't do it, you need to - you must understand this as a part of the healing process. No matter what, you need to be doing alot of mental work right now, Petvet.<p>Take care, Desiree

PetVet,<p>I think that you're in excellent hands with Desiree, but I just wanted to hammer home a couple points.<p>Firstly, although it's very tough to tell, I'm not sure that you've done a very effective plan A. What does seem to be evident throughout your posts is that you're reacting to your wife's behaviors. One of the underappreciated beauties of Plan A and B (especially done under direction of one of the Harley's) is that they're not "reactive"---they are a proactive approach that helps to dampen a bunch of the horrible feelings that you're going through on this rollercoaster. With these plans, you're in effect going to work on your marital skills, tailoring them to your spouse (Plan A), and then completely separate from contact with them before they've killed your love for them (Plan B). All throughout this time you are "demonstrating" your love for your spouse, either by eliminating lovebusters and attempting to meet needs (Plan A)---or by simply hanging in there during what appears to be an intolerable situation (Plan B). You're not reacting to what your wife does or doesn't do---you're saying to her "look---I don't like this affair business. But I will work on our marriage and make this a better place for you, with or without your help."<p>The bottom line is that most affairs will end within a couple of years. And if you loved your wife before this "insanity", and she had decent marriage skills (in effect, you weren't a complete idiot for marrying her)---the chances are good that you can rebuild the marriage, should you get through this period. It's not easy; in fact, it's probably the most horrible period that you can go through---but the pain will fade, should you be successful.<p>I'd encourage you to find a therapist who will not belittle your spouse, and help you feed on your "rightful" anger. It's not helping you in Plan B. Plan B is still a Plan bent on reconciliation---and your only job in Plan B is to protect YOUR love for your spouse. That means insulating yourself from the horrible things that she's doing right now---but it also means managing your anger as well. If you can't get to the point of forgiveness, understanding, and dealing with the situation---you are GUARANTEED to fail, whether you reconcile or divorce. If you reconcile, the work will actually be harder (you'll be in the situation of having to Plan A someone who put you through hell, and you're going to ask the question "is this worth it???"). If you divorce, you're going to be horribly bitter. You won't be able to effectively coparent your son, and this will very likely poison future relationships.<p>Work on the forgiveness aspect now. Lose the bitterness. As bad as you feel, in all likelihood, your wife will end up feeling much worse when she crashes. And she's not going to have anyone to blame but herself for it. If you love her---you'll feel for her and you'll be able to make an attempt at reconcilation. The other (good) outcome of Plan B is when you don't feel much of anything. At that point, you'll be healthy enough to move on.

Thanks for your comments.The important part of this forum is the wealth of experiences that is shared amongst the members.You have given me food for thought.Please understand this messy stuff is new to me.I have always taken my relationships very seriously.Yes,I played a part with my with looking elsewhere for love.I have learned the complex details of meeting your lovers needs.I will not make the same mistakes in the future.I need to review Plan A again.I get the impression that I am not doing something right.I guess I need to be careful with my anger before I scare W away.Can I forgive?Yes,I can.

It will take time to build trust with my wife or anyother women(if it comes to that).It's just going to take time.I am going to have flowers and card waiting for W when she picks up son later today.I am working on myself.I am marching foward and am taking pride in learning from my mistakes and retooling myself. I am very focused.It has been a couple of days since I got depressed or cried.I am trying to build a better me.I guess I need to revisit Plan A in Harley's book for a better understanding.RMA:I'm sorry to hear about your past situation.I can tell you are a stronger
women from your experience.My wife told me last night that she wants to speak to me.I will let you know what she says.I'm going to a movie and dinner this weekend by myself.Son is still asking
where his mom is.He is the main reason I am upset with W.It seems so stupid.I am going to be the best I can for my son.I am going to make myself a better human being.

Petvet,<p>I liked your last two posts. You are showing more understanding already. Please realize - relationships and human dynamics are ever-evolving things. You have to constantly learn and constantly adjust. Sounds like you have begun to critically and honestly assess yourself and your skills and actions as a marital partner. This is one of the best things you can do for yourself, besides for your marriage. By being honest with yourself, you can identify the behaviors you have that MUST be changed. You must adapt and change in order to be successful with your W, because what you have been doing isn't working - she is looking for and finding love elsewhere.<p>K, thanks for jumping in and offering support. I agree with K that you might not have done such a good Plan A. Honestly, I did a TERRIBLE Plan A at first. I did not realize it until I began to counsel with Steve H. He told me on my first counselling session that I was doing a terrible Plan A, even though I thought I was doing great. I was constantly trying to educate my then H and I was also doing all the other things that drive your S further away - beggin, pleading, trying to make him feel guilty, etc. All I did was drive him further into the arms of the waiting OW. The point is, I was making more mistakes without even realizing it. My number one piece of advice to you right now is to call Steve immediately and begin to counsel with him. This is the BEST money you can spend, because you will get professional advice tailored directly to your situation. Think of it as a family Holiday gift. It isn't cheap, but a few sessions to get YOU on track will go a long, long way. It is important to do things right in the beginning, Petvet - 'cause you might end up like me without a second chance.<p>Enjoy the time out by yourself. That will do you some good.<p>You and your W should sit down and talk to your son together about why she has left. If you support her in this, I believe it would go along, long way in your favor. If you trash her, she will add that to the list of reasons why she shouldn't come back to you. <p>Keep the faith - God has put support resources here for you!<p>Desiree<p>[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: Roll Me Away ]</p>

RMA:I am going to check into counseling with Steve.As far as talking to my son about what's going on,I am going to play it by ear.I don't want him knowing no more than he has to.I am trying to stay focus on the matters at hand.W has son for the weekend,so I may catch a movie this evening and dinner.I am going to get back to strict business like I use to be. I am going to get all my ducks in a row and kick butt(figurtively speaking).I am going to show her what she is missing, and impressing onto others that I have my act together and keeping it that way.I am not going to let her nor anyone else throw me off track.I am a 38 years old with a lot to do for myself and my family before God calls me home.If W wants to be with other people so be it.I am facing this reality because I have no other choice. It is looking me right in the eye. There is no escape.I either face it or parish into eternity. Many people thought my W was a liability to me rather than an asset.All I have to say is I am very focus.

Petvet,<p>Good deal! Glad you will call Steve. I promise you, it is eye-opening and worth the money. I also had a personal counselor that I counselled with weekly for a year. That was a great support, too. <p>Enjoy your weekend. As hard as it is right now, with things so tupsy-turvy, just know that in time you feet will be planted firmly on the ground once again.<p>I will burn a candle for you this weekend. Desiree

Hi RMA:Well,I kinda feel bad again.Let me give you a recap of my won-der-ful weekend.On Friday,W picks up son from school.Starting Saturday morning,I started getting phone calls from W.On Saturday alone,W probably called at least five or six times(point of reference:I tried to make myself out of sight;I saw calls on caller ID so I did not answer every phone call.Today,she called three or four times before I picked son up at her place.She looked like she was under a lot of pressure because her appearance has gone down even though she just got her hair fixed.She told me that our son had a dream last night that she was back home playing video games with him.I really did not want to see nor talk to her as
much as I did this weekend.I did not have anyother choice.I gave her flowers and a card when I arrived at her place and hug and kiss her
goodbye when I lefted.I can't wait to speak to Mr.Harvey.You really think he will be helpful,huh?I have to try to do my part for my son's sake to pull this thing back together if possible as well as get my feet firmly on the ground.In mass today,the priest in his homily said that we alone have to decide to make changes in our lives for the better no one else can do this for us.I have decided to make myself better.How did Harvey help
you?

Petvet,<p>All things considered, this was really not so bad at all. I like the fact that your W called or at least attemptede to call yu so many times. That is very, very encouraging. Do make yourself scarce. Remember, one of the reasons for Plan B is to allow your W a glimpse of waht life without you will be like. She is already missing you or at least worried about what you might be doing, and that is excellent! <p>The flowers and the card were great. Now you have firmly established your desire to reconcile, but do nothing more after that. If you guys interact, think Plan A and be nice and be charming, but leave her alone in the times in between. You are having a good start.<p>Steve Harley was worth the money to me. He answered my questions and most importantly, he helped me to strategize my own situation. Unfortunatley, my ex wanted no part of anything related to it, but still, I feel I did 100% of everything that I could do in my situation. So, even though I ended up D, I feel good about all my efforts. I have no regrets in that arena whatsoever. Additionally, I feel so positive about life and being in another relationship, because I have learned so very much about relationships and human dynamics. You can not control your W, but if you can learn to be a better partner, than at least you will be able to get something positive out of all this pain, no matter how things end up.<p>I do feel somewhat positive about your situation, Petvet. Your W is still fence-sitting, and that means there is still potential for her to want to reconcile and then do things RIGHT. All hope is not gone in your situation. Steve will have something to work with in your case.<p>You are doing well. Keep reading - Look for the link to the suggested reading materials somewhere here on the forum. Make your appointment today!<p>Later, Desiree

Hi RMA:My wife and I took my son to a child neurologist today,so I had to interact with her much more than I would have liked.I noticed for the first thiry or so minutes that she had a mean look on her faced and continually look out the passenger side window.Based on my experience with her,she would look out the passenger window when she is angry.I had not done anything to her.After about a hour,she began to interact with me more freely.When we got back from the doctor's office,my son cried very heavily when we lefted his mom (I think my son has come to the conclusion that mom may not be living with us again).What's so odd is that during the past week and a half my W and I always hug and kiss lip to
lip at the end of a visit.The reason why this catches my attention is that there were many times during the past three years when my wife would not allow me to kiss her much less hug her.
Oh!I have an appt.with Harley on Friday morning.I am pumped to speak with him.He may help me to develop a plan.Before I put my son to bed,he said "dad I need to speak to you,I really really miss my mom".THIS IS THE MAIN REASON I AM FIGHTING TO KEEP MY MARRIAGE.Do you think I should tell W what son said?Since I do not forsee any reason for us to be together for an extended period of time,I can better implement Plan B.

Petvet,<p>I am so happy you were able to get the appointment with Steve so quickly! I am not sure if you should tell your W what your son said - that is a good question for Steve. One thing I di that might help to make your first session more productive is this: I sent Steve an email with a synopsis of my situation, in as clear and honest of terms as I could. I think they may have recommended doing this when I set up the first appointment. That way, Steve can have the facts in fornt of him and it helps to get him up to speed on your situation.<p>Petvet, don't read too much into your W's anger right now. Everybody has some anger in this situation. Your W is very unhappy and thus far she can't really see how to resolve her situation. She is likely frustrated and has her own feelings of being "cheated" by life. I do not condone her actions, but having been here as long as I have, I certainly have come to understand that the WS is full of hurt and angst, no matter where or what the origin of that is.<p>What is of utmost importance is that you are the stabalizing force in your son's life right now. Kids understand to a point, and then they don't. Somehow, amny kids often feel "responsible" in some way for the breakup of their parents. Your son needs to know that you will be there for him. Is you son OK - the Neurologist appt? <p>Know that right now, you are doing all that you can. I know you want to stay married for your son's sake, but, Petvet, underneath your anger, your love for your W is still there, too. That love will keep you going when your head says no to.<p>Your family is in my prayers. Desiree

RMA:I will send Steve an email with a brief history.My son has some psychological issues that may be related to some neurologocal problems. I don't know what to think about W.I just need to stay away from her,so that I won't have to look at her.

Thanks RMA for recommending Steve's counseling. The session yesterday was GREAT!He has gotten me on a different track from the one that I have been traveling.He told me to abandon Plan B and solely do Plan A.He wants to determine why wife is unhappy and what's my role in her unhappiness.He told me that there's still hope for my marriage.He told me to go all out Plan A even to the extent of me feeling like a doormat or being used.Also, he wants me to fill out a Lovebuster questionaire from her perspective ans send it to him plus he wants to speak to my wife about my lovebusters if she will cooperate. He said that I need to convince her that things will be different if she returns. Needless to say, I have a lot of work to do, but at least I have a
game plan.I will keep you informed.

AWESOME! Nothing makes you feel better than having a plan! Great going, Petvet!<p>Good Luck, Desiree