Furrymitn, once again your situation almost mirrors mine. Let me me tell something. I recently purchased Dr. Laura's "Ten Stupid Things That Couples Do to Mess Up Their Relationships" (or something like that). I recommend you but the book. Dr. Laura says that stable and unstable people don't go together. I find it sort of interesting that neither of our wives have an interest in counseling.Why?You would think that a someone with a clear mind would want to make things better, but not someone who is unstable. They don't want to make the investment because they may learn that they have problems that will require work. These folks are lazy as far as motivation is concern. They think very highly of themselves even though they are making total asses of themselves. You noticed how they will pull you down whenever you try to move forward. The day to day activities of family life they cannot handle under their present mental unstability. Case in point, before I got married I was very organize. I had my stuff together. About three or four years into the marriage, my stuff became unraveled; as a result, I went four or five years through hell until W moved out. Well, for some reason, I am back on track and feeling good about the future. Everything with the exception of my marriage issue is going well. What is the common denominator of me being off track? W. You see Furrymitn unhealthy people and healthy people cannot co-exist very long without conflict. RMA is right that our marriages are not over yet, that's true, but we need to focus on on us and our kids and let the wives go on to their unhealthy lives. Of course, continue being nice to them but nothing more. For me, I have learned to be all business. I can handle it better that way. I take what is rather than get my feelings and heart involved. A confidant said something interesting to me yesterday. He said this is a blessing this is happening to you. I said why you said that he said sometimes things happen for a reason and that I have been pull down for so long now without that heavy anchor hanging on me now I can sore(wrong spelling) to new heights. Just think stable(Healthy) and unstable(unhealthy). The two don't mix.

Good morning guys,<p>Posted by Petvet:
I find it sort of interesting that neither of our wives have an interest in counseling.Why?You would think that a someone with a clear mind would want to make things better, but not someone who is unstable. They don't want to make the investment because they may learn that they have problems that will require work. These folks are lazy as far as motivation is concern. They think very highly of themselves even though they are making total asses of themselves. You noticed how they will pull you down whenever you try to move forward.<p>Oh, what wisdom here. My exH also did not want to go to counseling. He did make it to one session and that was it. I agree 100% with what is written here. Very perceptive, Petvet.<p>Yet, we ALL need to remember a thing or two. We married our S's for better or worse. Our responsibility is to do what we can to try to save our marriages. Doesn't matter if our WS is doing a whole bunch of selfish stuff. We must honestly give our all to try to save our marriages, guys. In the long run, it may not happen, but if you have done your best, and given it enough time, you will at least know in your heart that you have done the right things by your wives. I honestly tried and gave my all, and although I ended up D, I am happy and emotionally stable. I like myself and God has been good enough to bring a wonderful man into my life. I am emotionally ready for him, because I feel I did everything I could do to save my marriage, and I don't have regrets for my efforts hanging over my head.<p>Keep focusing on the positives in your lives, guys. As rough and painful as times are, you still have your children with you and many other positive things going for you both. Furrymitn, hope ya'll have a wonderful BD party for your daughter. You are doing so well to temper your anger and I am real proud of you and Petvet, both!!<p>Desiree

Petvet,<p>My father inlaw actually bought this book, and is giving it to W as kind of a way for the inlaws to let her know what it is that shes doing. I'll hopefully get my hands on it.<p>I definately agree with everything you've said.
In order for someone to realize that they need help of some sort, they would have to be somewhat clear-minded, or at least be able to clear their mind momentarily. I'm a firm believer that my W does not have this capability. She is always clouded by the things that she's done in her life, and the repercussions of those things, as well as everything going on around her, and is totally unable to focus.<p>Most of what you've said are thoughts that have been at the back of mind, kept down by my feelings. I have so much feeling for her that I don't want to admit how unstable she really is. Part of what is coming out in my counseling is that I have a deep rooted fear of loneliness and rejection. That my 'enabling' behavior is pretty much caused by that. I'm starting to think that maybe after I make some sort of breakthrough and am not so afraid of losing her to be alone, that I think I may realize that a lot of my feelings for her are actually coming from my fears. I think i lost myself explaining that, but it's pretty pyscho-sematic(sp?).<p>Oh man. I think I was great today. W came over to help decorate, I smiled a lot, even joked around, it was pretty nice, made me a little sad, but i didn't show it. When family & friends came, I kept it up. Cordial, nice, smiling sometimes, and didn't discuss anything but small talk and my D's BDay. There were times when I caught W looking at me at off times. I don't make much of it, but it was nice to know I was feeling good by acting it.
The only sour point was when most everyone had left, and W said she wasn't going with a few of us to take the girls and friends kids to Chuck E Cheese(video games, pizza parlour for kids). I just shook my head and walked away. Said nothing. I can't believe she's that selfish that she wouldn't even help to enjoy her own daughters bday party. But I didn't say anything, walked away, she yelled 'If you have something to say then say it', I just said 'Been a good day, not going to say anything' then she left. I feel good about it. My best friend and I took his son & the girls to CEC, had a blast, W's sister showed up, it was a lot of fun. <p>And, to further elongate my post, this song i happened to be actually really listening to, Quasimodo by Lifehouse, has really excellent lyrics:<p>you could be right and I'll be real
honesty won't be a pain you'll have to feel
'cause I don't need your approval to find my worth
I've been trapped inside of my own mind afraid to open my eyes to what I'd find
I don't want to live like this anymore
there goes my pain
there goes my chains
did you see them fall
there goes this feeling that has no meaning
there goes the world off of my shoulders
there goes the world off of my back
there it goes
does it scare you that I can be something different than you
would it make you feel more comfortable if I wasn't
you can't control me
you can't take away from me who I am
there goes my pain
there goes my chains
did you see them falling
there goes this feeling that has no meaning
there goes the world off of my shoulders
there goes the world off of my back
you can't change me
you can't break me
there it goes<p>have you ever felt that your only comfort was your cage
you're not alone I have felt the same as
you
have you ever felt like your secrets give you away
you're not alone I have been there, too
everyone is looking
and everybody is laughing but I think everyone feels the same
everybody wants to feel okay
everybody wants to
everybody wants to feel
there goes my pain
there goes my chains
did you see them falling
there goes this feeling that has no meaning
there goes the world off of my shoulders
there goes the world off of my back
'cause I don't want it
you can't change me
you can't break me
there it goes<p>I have a couple other lyrics excerpts that are pretty good too on my website(http://playland.bigbrownbeaver.com)

furrymitn,<p>Glad the BD party went well, even though your W did not join you all for CEC. Oh, I remember how fun that place was when mine were little!<p>I have not read the Dr Laura book. Let me know (you or Petvet) if it is worth the read or not. I read so many others. Yes, the lyrics fit in this situation very much.<p>I went to your website. Saw pics of who I think is your W and your D's. Not sure which one was you. Your family is GREAT looking! I hate that your family is separated. Therapy is good for your soul, furrymitn. I went for a year. All I can is this - I think most people are afraid of loneliness to some degree or another. You spend many years adapting to become oneflesh with your S and then you are just supposed to easily uncleave and see yourself as totally separate and independent?????? Not that easy, friend. Doesn't mean anything is wrong with you. It just takes a large amount of adjusting and time to get used to the "new norm" of being alone, again.<p>Keep the faith, friend! Gotta go the boyfriend's daughter's soccer game.....<p>Desiree

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Roll Me Away:
<strong>furrymitn,<p>I went to your website. Saw pics of who I think is your W and your D's. Not sure which one was
</strong><hr></blockquote>
The Niagara Falls pics are W and I, as well as the NYC pics.
In the Goofy Holiday pics part, my D's are hanging from the doors.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong><p>you. Your family is GREAT looking! I hate that
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thank you. I always liked to believe we looked good together... as a family.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>
You spend many years adapting to become oneflesh with your S and then you are just supposed to easily uncleave and see yourself as totally separate and independent?????? Not that easy, friend. Doesn't mean anything is wrong with you. It just takes a large amount of adjusting and time to get used to the "new norm" of being alone, again.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
yes. that's the hardest part, to make it to the point of WANTING to go on and surge forth in life without her. Most everything i've done up til this point in my life has been to look forward and know that at some point, our family is going to 'have it good', and now it skews a little my goals and objectives in life.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong><p>Keep the faith, friend! Gotta go the boyfriend's daughter's soccer game.....<p>Desiree</strong><hr></blockquote>
I played soccer in junior high, HS, and sponsor an open-age tournament team yearly(bigbrownbeaver.com beavers). Did she win or at least play good? How old?<p>[ March 10, 2002: Message edited by: furrymitn ]</p>

RMA, please read Dr. Laura's book. Dr. Laura is very blunt. I have not totally given up on my marriage, but I cannot do it alone. I need her cooperation and committment. I have been focusing on myself and son. The family including W went to the NASCAR race yesterday. Pretty good outing. Whenever W wanted to show feeling towards me, she pull back and said "I said I would not do that".I am forging ahead with or without her. I hate being single too because I know that it is going to be very hard establishing another relationship. In the interest of my son, I will probably go it alone. Dr. Laura does not like second marriages especially when it involves kids. Guys, please read the book. A lot of things she says make sense. Take it from me.

I'm running out to buy it this week. Another very good book is 'If Only he knew' by Gary Smalley.<p>I'm getting to the overwhelmed point again with W. I can't stand the fact that I just know that there are feelings within her for me, but she is unwilling to feel them, like she's too busy making me into the devil to realize anything. I have lost respect for her in many rights, and have to do a lot to keep from being bitter towards her, since all of our interaction is now in front of the kids. She keeps getting bitter and nasty towards me, but i remove myself from the interaction before it goes further, unless of course she keeps at me, then I feel like a schmuck for not defending myself, but I still bite my lip. If she's trying to get to me, it's working. She's also doing an excellent job at convincing herself I am the worst imaginable person. Everything comes back on me, no matter if she was the one who actually did something. Everything puts me to blame, and shame. She is doing such a terrific job of tearing down my self-worth. I find I keep this attitude most of the time now, like i'm angry all the time, and have to beat myself on the wall(metaphor) to snap out of it. It's like she's trying to turn me into her, minimal self worth/self-esteem and angry at everyone for it. <p>I really don't know what else to do to interact nicely with her anymore, except to retract from her, and totally distance myself from her.<p>There is nothing I can say to her that she doesn't came back and say i'm trying to control her or whatever - example, the house she's in, it's now only her and the guy that there are suspicions as to whether she's involved with(he had told her 'he wanted to get in her pants' before, and they had chatted some pretty unacceptable things in the days prior to her leaving. The girl that lives(W and my friend) there is gone for a week. W wanted the girls to stay over, I disagreed and said it was inappropriate with just her and the guy there. She said I was trying to control her. I didn't know how that could be conceived, so I said no, only trying to keep the girls in an environment they know.
I just can't see going on. I can't see continually putting myself through this for who knows how long, and living in a state of disarray and unknown.<p>I can't see keeping myself down like this, 2 months of hearing what a bad person i am and how crappy our marriage was and how it will never work and how nothing can change(even though i am changing myself through counseling and church), it's getting past the point of her getting mad, and more towards verbal abuse. it's hard to keep thinking i'm a decent person. sometimes i'm mad at myself for still loving her and wanting her back.<p>[ March 11, 2002: Message edited by: furrymitn ]</p>

Petvet, <p>OK, I will get the book, but I just will have to wait a bit. I honestly have zero time to add one more thing right now - just recently started a new job.<p>Wow, your W went to the race, huh? Those tickets were hard to get, I'll bet. How nice you are to include her in the family thing. Look, she still has feelings for you, Petvet, or she wouldn't have to keep reminding herself to be nasty and cold to you. I know it is hard to be where you are, but I don't yet think things are 100% over for you. How many divorcing couples (as in the divorce is filed) do you know that do as many things together as you and your W? I know of none others. Keep your distance and your boundaries. Keep being the nice man that you are. I heard at one point at the soccer game that Tony Stewart was leading, but I never did know how it ended. Who won? My fav is Dale, Jr. - only 'cause I liked his Dad best, and now he is gone.<p>furrymitn,<p>First about the soccer - she is 11 and played for the first time in the fall, so this is her second "Season". She plays offense and goalie. Honestly, and I know next to nothing about soccer - it was not available in my town when my boys grew up - she is just a novice player. But, she does enjoy this so much and is having a good time and learning a lot.<p>Your book recommendation is another I will have to check out. I have not read that one, either. I did read 12 -13 books during the affair time, but have not read any on this subject since that time. <p>I am sorry your W has anger and bitterness towards you. You are not a schuck, furrymitn. By keeping quiet, you are only tempering the argument. If you speak up to defend yourself, she won't listen and things will only escalte from there. Don't think of yourself as a schuck - you aren't - you are just being the sensible and responsible person right now.<p>Work on the anger, though. Don't let her get your goat. Your power belongs to YOU. Don't give her the ultimate gift - power to control you. Those words of hers of "you controlling her" - GOSH! I wish I had a dime for everytime a BS here has heard that! Me included! I just have to laugh - sorry - don't mean that is funny. It is ironic, that's all. This goes back to my theory about WS's. They feel out of control of their lives - they're in pain and irritated about life and just don't know how to handle or solve those problems. I truly believe that affairs are in many cases distraction techniques to avoid dealing with what ails them. They want the control and the power and to call the shots and to be the masters of destiny. Can you imagine any more way to be in CONTROL that to cheat on your spouse, who still wants you anyway, but yet the WS still has to "decide"?? <p>Ugh, just don't get me going there. The truth is that she is likely "projecting" her own feelings and thoughts onto you. Ask your counselor about this. Wrestle with yourself to get control of your own emotions, furrymitn. Your life and your happiness are dependent upon it. Find all the positives you can and continue with your boundaries. You are not being unreasonable about the girls. A judge would likely agree with you. Give your W the space she is wanting and concentrate on being the best Dad and man that you can be. Distance her if you need to do it for you, but please use plan a when you do have to interact. Your girls will highly benefit from this.<p>Prayers for you both, Desiree

I'm still working on coming to terms with the plan a stuff, so maybe i'm not totally understanding it. Should I 'buck up' in the face of adversary and be nice, effectively acting? I've done that many a times, and it feels god as to the outcome, but i fell like i'm fooling myself by acting happy, and also giving her the 'ok' to go ahead with the f'd up plan she's on. Should I just act happy/content?

Furrymitn, you may want to keep your distance and keep doing plan a when you are around her. Since she is being nasty to you, it's best keeping your distance. Also, evaluating and assessing her every mood and reaction can be exhausting. Just take what she does at face value and move on. I don't mean to be cut and dry, but there comes a time where the BS has to focus on themselves and their children and let the WS drift on. You do not need the negative forces from her. Keep in mind negative and positive do not go together. Stop stuggling and focus on the positives including your next move. It is the only way you will keep stress under control and your sanity.<p>RMA, yes I am nice. People tell me that's my problem. I have let her have a field day running over me. To be honest with you, whether she likes me or not, I don't care anymore.She has to show me going forward.I am not going back to the junk I have lived through for the past four years. I have grown tired of the mess. I had invited her to the race before I found out she had filed against me. Otherwise, I would not have invited
her. I don't want anything from her; there's nothing she can do for me.I've thrown the trash out.I'm trying to move on.I have done everything I could to keep the marriage alive but she has shot down all my attempts and efforts, so there's not anything else I can do. It's time to move on.I must stay focus. Little Dale is a good driver; I feel sorry for the kid having to follow behind legend of his father. To me, he looks just like his dad even though they say his brother is a splitting image of their father. Tony Stewart is not one of my favorites. W and son like the G man(I know I know!). She thinks he is so cute.The man from Dawsonville is my favorite.

Well, I took your advice, stepped back a little to give myself the room to look at things and interaction with from a not-so-close point of view. Calmed me down a little to head towards taking "what she does at face value and move on". I also took that approach at inviting her yet again to my counseling appt. OMG, she said yes! Now i'm very nervous. I'm trying not to evaluate it at all, just take it as getting us through this, whatever the outcome, and trying to keep my (false) hopes down. Just take it as this may help us get through this, either making it easier to get D, or to maybe move closer. Who knows, but it's a start, right? Hopefully she'll go back again, I really think if she starts to see this counselour, she'll get her own head straight, and that can only make my life easier.

furrymitn,<p>How wonderful your W will go to the counselor with you. She has a lot to learn about herself and about relationships, but she needs to learn this from someone else who is not you. I got that directly from Steve Harley. Encourage her to go, but do refrain from trying to "teach" her anything at all - it won't work. Petvet did a better job of explaining about detaching. Look, even if she goes to counselling or even if she decides to move home - that is no guarantee that you guys will work things out and restore and rebuild your marriage. You have alot more to face yet, and the outcome of all of this is still uncertain.<p>Plan A does a few things. It teaches you how to be a better partner/mate. You need to ID what are your W's ENs and try to meet them. You need to not LB, as much as you can. You need to practice POJA, rules of time, honesty and care. These will benefit YOU. You may be able to give your W time to pause and turn around and see that you are really a good partner, and maybe she will ant to come back. Or, she still may want the D. If that happens, at least you have learned really good skills that you can use in youir next relationship, if you choose to have one.<p>By focusing on improving yourself, you spend less time focusing and obsessing about the marriage and what your W is or isn't doing. Spend your time constructively. I did not in the beginning of my exH's affair. I spent my time feeling sorry for myself, trying to convince and educate him about his affair, crying, pleading, begging and being angry and hurt. None of these activitis did one thing to help me or my marriage. Finally, I did do a good Plan A. I learned alot and although my ex doesn't get to benefit from what I learned, my current boyfriend does. Use this time wisely to be a better person for yourself.<p>Petvet,<p>Thanks for the good advice to furrymitn. You are getting stronger each and every day. Doesn't matter that you already had invited her - she still went, and to me that is somewhat significant. I can tell, even though you don't want to, that you do still love your W. Listen, you don't just move on that quickly. You are definitely beginning to "let go", but it takes a long time, Petvet. You can't "will" the love away. The love bank will drain itself because she will not make any deposits and her continued hurtful behavior will withdraw even more. <p>Try to just take things one day at a time with all this. How is your son's counseling going? Also, you did not mention, did your W ask for custody in the divorce papers or not?<p>Wishing you both a relaxing evening, Desiree

RMA, W has already drained the love bank bone dry. I'm not going back to her mess unless she makes a 360 degree transformation through counseling. I don't think she will do counseling or anything else that will cause her to commit to anything involving me. If that occurred, I would run through downtown naked.Yes, she asked for joint custody; however, pit bull (my attorney) just submitted an answer and counterclaim and pit bull is not taking any prisoners. The bull does not want the court to give her anything. I mean zero. My counterclaim is tougher than the first petition. As I said before, W has made big error in judgement. Son has counseling session later this month; in the meantime, he has become strong willed and disrespectful. I am getting him back in line before things get out of control. I am sad to hear how much pain you went through with your ex. Well at least, your boyfriend will benefit.I can image the good feeling you must have to express that love.It makes you feel good about humanity to know that there are good people who appreciate you and return your love.I hope things work out for you.Please read Dr. Laura's book before you take the dive.By the way, what was your hobby that you had during your marriage?Ex did not want to participate?

Petvet,<p>Well your love bank may be draining, but you aren't 100% dry, yet. I imagine your lawyer is going to give your W a tough time. She just doesn't see it coming at all, does she? Too bad - more of the hiding the head in the sand phenomenon as exhibited by many WS's. Just make sure that you do your best for your son. The judge will hopefully agree to those things that are deemed best for him. Good luck in all of this.<p>About me. My one big hobby was Tae Kwon Do. I am a second degree Kukkiwon certified black belt. Takes a lot of time to stay in shape and to train. I started because exH got into this and begged me to join after I had finished my master's degree. I did so to share his hobby. He ended up having to quit due to a non-malignant brain tumor. He had surgery and could never recover his balance enough to participate. He stopped but I kept going. In retrospect, I think he felt neglected about the time I spent training and working out. I questioned him many times about it, but he always said he was fine and encouraged me to keep at it. <p>He was not honest, Petvet. He said to me more than once during his affair that the OW put him #1 in her life. To me, that means he felt I did not do that. All people that knew us as a couple know one thing - I spoiled my exH. He was really spoiled by me. The year before he started the affair, I threw him a BD party for his 50th on a cruise to the Bahamas - paid for 20 people to go, and most of the airfares. I could have bought a small car with the amount I spent. Too bad - that didn't mean a whole lot one year later. I guess me not focusing on him 100% of the time really made him feel less "special" than the OW made him feel.<p>Well, after therapy, I see alot. I know I was a good wife, really a great wife in many but not all respects. I know I did let some things slide and took some things for granted. I needed to work on my approach and not try to direct and be responsible for so much of the family activities. I need to make sure any person I am with feels loved by me. Yet, I don't have to try to be 100% responsible for their personal happiness and their choices - that belongs to each person individually. I know I deserve someone who can be counted on for both the good times and the bad. In turn, I must be a partner who can be counted on in the same good and bad times.<p>Lots of stuff learned the hard way. Desiree

Well, I won't be getting into any physical confrontations with you. I am proud of you getting involve and being committed to woth while hooby like that. As I have said before, these WS are stupid, stupid, stupid. What bothers me about these folks is they want everyone to be perfect but they don't take time to look at themselves in the mirror. They are not strong people internally. My W pull the same crap. They want you to stay attached and bonded to them 24-7. The attention they think they are going to get from the OP is only an allusion because they will wear that person out mentally and physically and then they will either get tired or them or get dumped. I do not miss the mess. The trash is out. At my mindset now, I have no mercy.I want to live in peace.The WS's are a bunch of dramas: if it ain't one thing it's another. I think your husband just wanted to taste another lollipop like my W. We are all not perfect but our WS did not have a legitimite cause for what they have done.You done good. I am proud of you.It's his lost.It's going to be my W lost. Screw the both of them. As I have said before, my love bank is bone dry;I think.Take care of yourself.

Petvet and furrymitn,<p>I will be gone for a week. I'll check in on you two when I get back. Hope your week goes well.<p>Desiree

RMA, I hope you had a good vacation or business trip.Son and I are doing OK.W told me that she does not like the way I am treating her. I have been all business: no more no less.No touchy feely from me: she did not want that. Now, I'm all business. She cannot have it both ways.

Petvet,
Of course she does not like the "new" you. She wants her cake and to eat it, too. You are now in a semi-Plan B mode. She is the one ramrodding the divorce down your throat. Be as nice and civil as you can when you two have to interact, Petvet. Perhpas your change in attitude towards her will give her cause to stop and think how much she will miss having you as a significant person in her life. <p>Her current irritation is a good sign, Petvet.<p>Desiree

Hi RMA, how are things with you? I forgot to ask how you were doing last time.How has Easter been for you? I had a fairly decent Easter. I swallowed my pride and went to church and worshipped with my family. I did it for the kid. Afterwards, I was going to take my son out to dinner; I invited W to go, she accepted. She was very sociable. I think the kid liked us being together. Sometimes, I wonder whether W knows exactly what she is doing.

Petvet,<p>You are a good man. I am happy your family was able to go to church together and then spend the day together on Easter. I keep telling you that you and your W are not done, yet, Petvet. I know you hate the rollercoaster, as well you should, but your W has not 100% walked away from you or the marriage. Keep on plugging, friend.<p>My Easter was great. Had my fella, all my sons and a couple of their girlfriends, too. I also had my sister and BIL from out of state for several days. They went sightseeing from here and may stop on the way back through. I cooked a huge dinner, as I always do on holidays. It was a wonderful time together.<p>Have you heard anything from furrymitn, lately?
I wonder how things are going for him.<p>Desiree