Wallace: Ohhhhhhhhhhhh yes! The INLAWS? It does not matter what your other half has done; in most cases, your inlaws will give support to their kid. They are not going to believe that their precious little monster has done anything wrong or at the very least, if they did do something wrong, it was because their spouse did not do something right or wrong. Complete denial. My father in law has basically cuss me out over this stuff. I mean I understand his disappointment. Recently, he and I had a long talk and I told him that there is a lot that he does not know, but he still blames me. Wifey has done a good job telling her story, but even she does not know the dirt I have on her. I know several law enforcement officers and PIs who have done me plenty of favors the last couple of years and have taught me the ropes of the trade. If inlaws knew what I know, they would be ashame. I am very frustrated with everything. Whenever she comes around, I get irritated because she comes off as though things are business as usual. Hell! it is not business as usual. She comes to house and use the facilities yet I cannot get one dime out of her for child support or anything. I'm having to take her rear end to court to get maintenance. It pisses me off royally. I was so mad this afternoon I had to pop one of my psycho pills. I'm sorry for digressing, but the point I am trying to make is you probably are not going to be able to trust your inlaws and their family. Blood is thicker than their relationshio with you. This is what happens during D. Relationships are damaged. Basically, the victims of this mess are in it by themselves for the most part. You should not have share stuff with your MI because I am quite sure she is in contact with your W. As a matter of fact, she may be giving her financial support. I would let MI and their family come to me not vice versus. Now, your W is really going to be looking over her shoulder. Don't worry though. Her back is still in a corner, but the element of surprise may have been lost.

Hi everyone, I have been out of the country until last night, sounds like alot going on. Wallace, glad you ateast know where ws is "hiding out" has she still made no effort to see S? Petvet, keep ontop of your lawyer, I also found you have to micromanage, they typically have so many cases going on they cannot remember the specifics of each case.<p>For my update, things are still going well. I have put the D proceedings on hold for now. I got a plesent surprise when I got home, w and kids came over and W had her wedding rings on, I didn't say anything and later than night she asked me if I noticed, I said of course and was happy that she had them on, she said that she felt it was the right time to put them on. She also changed her cell phone number and put call id block on her apt. phone. Why is she not moving in sooner? Because I wanted to start slower this time and not have her move back in right away, I thought a month would be good time although she has spent the night here 2 in the last 2 weeks. I want to work on the frienship part of the relationship first and I know I will pressure her for SF if she is here all of the time and I don't want to do that. I am now certain the relationship with OM is dead, I can't be certain that we will work it out or that she will not find another OM, but this A has died a natural death, I am 99% sure. As far as the mental images, not sure what to do with that , that is my own internal battle I will have to win.
Will write more later,
Take care,
Dave

Petvet is dead on about blood being thicker than water! Due to the divorce and ex marrying the OW right after our divorce, I have lost the close relationship I had with my former MIL. Really, it is true that most parents, even though they may not approve of their grown child's behavior, they will stick with their child. My exH is my MIL's favorite child. Even he said he could commit murder with an axe and his mother would find a way to decide it was all OK.<p>I miss the close relationship with my former MIL, especially as my own mother is passed away. However, the parents of my current boyfriend adore me, so I do have another maternal friend.<p>I hope that all of your relationships with in-laws survive the nastiness and emotionalism of the affair and divorce (for those headed that way). But, don't be surprised if the relationship changes significantly.<p>Have a good Sunday! RMA

Hi All,<p>I had to take a break away for a little while. It just starts working on you... I'm sure all of you know what I'm talking about... but I'm back.<p>Nothing new on my end, don't know if that is a good or a bad thing. Took care of a few things that needed my attention... me.<p>Petvet,<p>It must be hard on you to have contact with your W and it's business as usual. I'm not sure which is worse, to have contact and nothing getting resolved, or not having contact, and nothing getting resolved. It's a tough situation, and I know it's hard to deal with. I've just been trying to get my mind more focused on completing the end of my M. I think that once it's over with, I'll be able to clear away more of the fog that I have, at least I hope so. <p>Is there no getting through to your wife? Is it that hopeless for you and your W at this stage? I believe that if I had contact with my WS, I probably could heal the wounds (with God's help) and put my marriage on track for a while. But I know it would only be for a little while, and we cannot endure anymore pain. My WS would have to come to terms with herself and turn herself around before I would ever consider ever going back with her... I don't ever see that happening.<p>RMA,<p>I agree with you and Petvet with everything that you both have stated. I have not initiated contact with anyone who even knows my WS since. I guess that is the right approach, of course I'm not so sure about what is right or wrong anymore concerning this mess.<p>The relationship concerning the MI, and that side of the family, is it will probably all fall by the wayside in time... ie. less contact and then no contact. That is for them to decide though. I absolutely agree, BLOOD sticks with BLOOD, right or wrong, no matter what they may have done... point well made. It's too bad that things have to turn out like they do.<p>Dave,<p>It sure sounds like your M, may be taking a turn around. I say prayers for all of us, and I will keep you in my prayers to allow God to bring you and your W the marriage that I know you want.<p>Stay in touch, Stay strong.<p>Wallace

Wallace: You asked a very good in whether everything is hopeless with W. On the surface, I would say yes. See, part of the problem is that W has not suffered any of the consequences of her actions. She thinks she has gotten away scott free. I'm serious. She has her own apartment, money, freedom, etc. Now throw the elements of loss job, child support, in accessibility to house and restricted contact with kid, and you can see that things will get very interesting for her. It would throw some Louisiana hot sauce (w/o the shrimp of course!) on the situation: it would get things to jumping if you know what I mean. W will get a reality check. My instincts keep telling me that W will come back. She calls several times a week to see how kid is doing and obcourse she makes use of the house facilities. People who know about my situation think it is crazy. They think W is in another world and don't know what she is in for. Time will tell. <p>To be honest with you Wallace, I think your W is going to hit the wall very, very hard very soon. She knows that she has really screwed up. She may never recover from her mess regardless of whether she hooks up with someone else or not.You better expect anything to happen. Stay strong.<p>Dave: Stay the course.<p>RMA: You really are hitting all engines full blast with your love interest. It must feel real good. Go Girl!

RMA: Since you have been on the board with me from the beginning, I have a question for you?Last night, I was reading the good ole "Catholic Digest". This month the issue features articles on divorce. One of the things it discusses is a marriage encounter for couples headed who are separated, headed for divorce, or have other serious issues called Retrouvaille. I was thinking about inviting my W to attend, but since I had drop my divorce case and she refile a couple of days later, I did not want to get turned down and make a total "_ _s" of myself. Do you know what I mean?This is the same woman who did not want to have anything to do with Steve.
What do you think? Dave and Wallace give your two cents as well if you want.

Petvet,

Based on what I'm hearing so far, your W sounds like she is waffling to a degree. It sounds to me that she doesn't want to cut the cord all the way from you. So in a sense that may be a good sign. She is staying in contact, coming over to the house, these are all positive signs IMO.

She has not severed her relationship with you completely... there is a reason for that.

Of course, it may be because she has not made a complete decision that she wants out entiely yet. She may be trying to ease herself comfortably into the situation that she is headed for. Once she is certain that she can make it, she will might just make a clean break

W could be reluctant to severe the cord from you completely until she feels she is ready.

If you want to save your marriage, this may be your last and only opportunity for the time being. She is still in a state of indecision by the sounds of it. If you sense that it may be in both of your best interests to ask her to the classes that your Church has, and you think she will be receptive, then I would go for it. I mean, what can you lose? You have nothing to lose and everything to gain. If she refuses, nothing really will have changed, and you stay the course.
I know about those classes and they are very successful... if you can get her to go, you may be able to put your M back together. It will take time, but if you really want it... it will be well worth it.

In regards to my WS, I have to agree with you... she is going to hit the wall at 100 mph with nothing to protect her. It is going to be ugly I'm sure. But so far, everything she has done, nothing, and I mean nothing has affected her. It's like water off a ducks back. Going on week seven and still no contact. Once the D is complete, then and only then, will reality set in. Only time will tell though.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Stay Strong!

Petvet, I will give you my 2 cents.. I personally believe from what I know about your situation that your W is going to come back to you, the question is when. From my experience, until she is truly ready, anything you attempt with her like Retrouvaille will not get the end result your looking for, she has to be ready and she will make the move when she is. The A has to take is course, she needs to find reality and she will.. You cannot bring her to any of these conclusions, she must find them on her own, for my WS it took her almost 1 year to the day, of course some WS never come to this but I believe yours will or she would not be contacting you. What worked best for my WS to help her out of Fog was to make reality set in for her, she wants to be divorced that starting acting like it. the more financial and emotional support you can cut off the quicker it may happen. I remember a session that I had with Jennifer Harley, she told me to go back to court and get my almony terminated and to drop her from my health insurance, she also told me that my WS would be back and she was right.
Last night my W and I talked about everything that happened, she said it was like an escape for her,
it was her get away from the kids, from the problems in the marriage, it was all fun and games, no responsibility, it was all about her.. but then she missed the kids... then she didn't have the money.. then she lost friends.. then OM started LB... then things that she ran away from became the things that she missed.. life
wasn't all fun and games anymore.... she started to realize what she had and what she gave up.. she also finally came to the conclusion that OM wasn't what she thought he was, he wasn't interested what was best for her but only the physical aspect of the relationship. It took her a year to see what I knew in one week, guess that is why they call it the Fog. I don't believe there is much you can do, with the exception of a good Plan B and making reality set in a much as possible. You can't educate them when they are in the Fog, you can't tell them what they should do, you can only let them go and let them figure it out on their own, I believe the more you let go the better the chance they can figure it out but it is so important to let them figure it out on their own. If I were you I would do a strict Plan B and not
try to tell or educate her on anything, just follow your plan, give it more time, and let her come to the conclusion on her own, my bet is that she will come to the conclusion in time. From my experience, the more I tried to educate my wife and to push things along, the more I delayed her finding herself out of the fog. How do you handle her phone calls? Can you try to implement a plan to reduce the amount of contact you are having with her?
Hang in there, Dave<p>Wallace, I am sorry for your situation, I also believe that your WS is going to "crash and burn" but it appears that you may not wait around for this to happen and even if it does it sounds like there is alot of things regarding herself that she needs to come to terms with and sometime people with these type of issues never deal with them, it is easier to run away than to deal with it. I know that you will be a stronger person from going through this. I hope your break did you some good.
Thanks for the prayers...

Hi Dave,

You make good points in your post to Petvet. We both agree that she will eventually come back, it's just a matter of when. So that is the good news.

I've thought about what you posted to Petvet with a lot more consideration. If Petvet's W is still involved with OM, then I am in full agreement.

So.... Petvet, you should stick with your plan B, as I know, that is probably not what you want to hear. I have to agree with Dave on this one.

Concerning my situation, WW is going to have to hit bottom before she comes to her senses.
I'm not sure how long that is going to take, she may never come to her senses.

As for myself and my family, we are not waiting around for her. If she was to come to her senses today, I'm not sure we could really take her back. She is going to have to have a very long period of adjustments in her life, before we would even consider having her back... too much pain, hurt, for too long.

Stay the course Dave, things sound like they are really working out for you. You also sound like you have a pretty good grasp on your situation.

Stay Strong!

Wallace

Petvet,

Well, the guys are all validating what I have been telling you all along - your W really does love you and will likely want to reconcile with you. I think Dave gave excellent advice. Retrouvalle is probably great, but your W will likely get turned off on it just because you would suggest it. Just continue to bide your time. If the D continues along, she is surely going to have to face some big time reality really soon. The consequences will come. You just keep being the really great guy that you are. More than anything, your son needs you to be the same old predictable Dad.<p>Wallace,<p>Your W will need some major therapy to address her issues with stealing. There is more dynamic with her than just the marriage/affair issues (as if THEY weren't enough!?!?). Most important is for your children to have a stable and reliable parent who can model a solid moral foundation for them. You seem to be doing an A+++ job in that department!<p>davepr,<p>I can understand you wanting to go slow, but really, I don't understand what waiting a month will accomplish to help your marriage. Sorry to keep asking questions, but I don't understand. I would think it is better to start working right away - move her back in - and to take things slow in the expectation department, not the work department, if you know what I mean.<p>RMA

Thanks all. I will stay the course. I will let things play out.<p>Dave and RMA: RMA, why do you think it's a good idea for Dave to take in his W now? If I put myself in Dave's shoes, I would not want to let her in right away either until I am more sure that her intentions are really valid rather than just a pit stop until the next prospect comes along. Dave's confidence has to get to a certain level before he jumps into the pool again. Also, he may want to have fun too soon if you know what I mean.You know once hormones get involve our judgement gets clouded. It's sort of letting the fox into the chicken house without putting tape around its mouth. He may need to be guarded in the short term. What do you think about what I have said, RMA? Does it make sense? I am giving my opinion from a man's point of view and my current feelings.<p>Wallace: I think you feel that your W will never come back, yuh. She's like a criminal that is going to jail. It may take years for her to come back to earth if ever. It seems that she has totally done a personality and lifestyle shift.I'm so sorry for you. It sound like you have cut the cord from your wife. You really sound matter of fact in your resolve. Your W has really blown it. I cannot imagine how your kids feel. There may be no coming back for your W because she has totally screw you and her kids. How is counseling going? Are your kids getting help?<p>Dave: I am really happy for you.

Hi RMA, maybe I am being overly cautious this time but I just want to make sure she is serious this time and so far I am 99.9% confident she is so mabye things will speed up some.. we have already started to pack up some things in her apartment so the move is underway, in reality she will probably be in before the end of the month. She is wearing her wedding rings, no contact with OM in about 3 weeks now although I ran into him the other day( it took alot to just look at him and walk away, i didn't give him the satisfaction of saying anything to him). I also want to get us into MC asap, I don't want things to revert back to the way they were, I think alot of couples stop putting in the effort when they reconcile, they think it is the end of the problems instead of the beggining on a new chapter. I want this new chapter to work so I want to get us into MC and her in IC before she moves back(she agrees)..I am still in IC( one a week for 11 months now) Anyway, I guess I am just being cautious and I don't want to pressure her for SF (ever) and I know she is not ready for that yet so actually the less time we spend in bed together the better, must be a male hormone thing,
(11 months has been along time) probably the better. She has spent the night here a few times and we are planning to spend the upcoming weekend together here with the kids so it will be a good start. I think that she will start to spend more time here as the week goes on. Oh, also, she is spending the day here with the kids while I am at work. The nights that she does go home she is using the time to pack, clean, and continue her reading - She is reading Healing from the Shame that Binds You and His Needs/Her Needs. <p>Wallace, I agree with everyone, you are doing great, just continue the course, when your WS crashes and burns, and if she is willing to work/fix her issues, then you could consider reconciliation but until that day happens, if ever, you need to continue to live as if she is not coming back. I think you big question is going to be her fixing her issues, the crash and burn will happen at some point, the question will be what does she do then. You are doing great. I know there has been alot of hurt and pain, I have that too, but the way I have been viewing it is if she is willing to fix the issues,then 1 year of hell, will be worth 40 years of great marriage to come.<p>Petvet, can you reduce the amount of phone time you are having with your WS? If you were divorced would you been talking to her as much as you do? I don't know how much time you spend talking so I am just asking....<p>Take care,
Dave

Hi All,

Petvet,

I think for the moment, until your wife completely shuts it off with OM, you should stay the course. As painful as it may be to stay the course I think it is in your best interest at the moment. The OM needs to be completely out of the picture, and your W has to really want to make the marriage work again... even if you do end up D. Just because your D, does not mean that you and her can never get back together ever again.

Dave,

Again, it appears that the direction that you are taking is going well for you. The MC, if they are pro-marriage is a great idea.

Be patient, be careful... I would hate to see this all go down the drain.

Just to give you some background, when my WS left this last time... we were trying to reconcile our M. It appeared everything was going great. Of course there were bumps along the way, but nothing major that I could see... and then WHAM! Out of nowwhere it all hit... she just up and left... leaving me and my family in the dark. Of course we later found out the ugly truth of what was really going on. I'm not saying this is going to happen to you, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy... I'm just saying be careful, and be observant of what is going on around you at all times... that's just my 2 cents worth.

RMA,

I can understand why you want Dave to have his W move back in. It puts things a little more in a M building mode, and that I can agree with. Lines of communication are better established, with no outside influences (we all Hope) from OM. Also, thank you for the post... I'm hanging in there.

Petvet,

Concerning my WW... you are right. I don't believe that she will ever come back. It would be a miracle if she did. She has many issues that she needs to come to terms with. Even if she were to acknowledge all the issues, it would take a very long time for her and us to recover from them in order to have a stable family again. I don't see that happening... as much as myself and my family would love to see that happen.

She has to want to help herself at this point, and if she did, I would be there with her to support her.

The hurt that she has done to our family runs very deep and I wished that none of this ever happened, but it has. I'm not very optimistic about the outcome of a renewed marriage.
There is no doubt in my mind, that she will eventually crash and burn. I pray for her everyday, as well as for myself and our family... we all need all the help we can get... it has been very tough on all of us.

I am seeing an IC, however, at the moment my children are refusing to seek any IC. I worry about my children, they are deeply hurt, and I try to console them, but,sometimes I feel so helpless. We are all taking it one day at a time.

Stay Strong!

Wallace<p>[ June 04, 2002: Message edited by: Wallace ]</p>

Hi Wallace, thanks for the advice, i am being cautious becuase of our last 2 failed attempts, I have found a pro MC... I am working on getting our insurance setup to cover it, I expect that we will start shortly.. My W told me that OM e-mailed her today, she asked me to help her change her userid, she didn't know how to do it.. I wasn't aware that he had her e-mail id, atleast she told me about it, I thanked her and am going to change her userid today... she also asked if we could
bring a few loads of boxes from her apartment to our house this weekend, I agreed.. we also made plans to go out together on Saturday night, we have a baby sitter for our 2 children.. The Stanley Cup finals are here in town on Saturday and i was lucky enough to get tickets, my W is a big hockey fan so we will have fun. It is very interesting in talking to her about what happened, her feelings, etc, I do have to say that most of the MB concepts are right on. It is interesting if you can be objective and no emotional.. the hard part is to not be emotional when you are discussing SF and other issues that are difficult to deal with.. so far I have been good about not LB when dealing with these difficult topics...
Take care,
Dave

To all,<p>Of course, I have never really been in any true recovery, so my thoughts can be 100% off base, but nonetheless, here they are. Dave, I think it is important to immediately begin the WORK of reconciliation, whether your W is 100% enthused about it or not. My understanding is that most WS are extremely ambivalent about reconciliation at the outset. Additionally, there is the withdrawal that they have to deal with. I realize your W has "seen the light" in regards to the OM, however, she still has to deal with the death of her fantasy relationship. She may have decided it isn't going to work out with the OM, but she still has feelings to process.<p>Why wait a month? I just don't think she will be any surer by then about wanting her marriage. I truthfully think she is likely somewhat ambivalent about you, Dave. I mean that with no disrespect, either. I just really think she is likely feeling that. Also, it isn't likely that she will have processed whatever feelings she needs to process about the OM in one month's time, either.<p>From all that I have read and seen on these boards the past 3 years, I would say that you need to start the work as soon as possible. It reminds me of people going on a diet - why wait until Monday morning to start the diet? Mostly, they delay the start to give themselves the excuse to gorge for another few days.<p>If you guys start sooner and the reconciliation fails, Dave, I don't think it will be because you started too soon. It will likely be because some lessons have not been fully learned.<p>Anyway, my motto is ....There's no time likje the present!<p>RMA

Hey All,<p>I have to agree with RMA on this one Dave. I know it's probably a tense proposition at this point.<p>To even consider reconciliation at this point would make me nervous. Is it because you might not want the whole thing blow up in your face?<p>
Wallace<p>[ June 04, 2002: Message edited by: Wallace ]</p>

Dave: RMA has a point. I guess what do you have to lose. I guess you cannot be 100% sure about anything;give it a shot. PLEASE KEEP YOUR EYES AND EARS OPEN.I'm happy that she told you that OM contacted her on the email. I have to give it to you Dave by not creaming the OM when you saw him. You did the right thing, but I know you had thoughts to go through your head. <p>Yesterday, I took kid to counseling and was talking with the therapist,and she told me that she has seen an increase in woman leaving that families for other men. This is not good news for our family structure in this country. <p>As far as phone conversations with W, I don't know what I can do about them. If she calls about kid, I cannot slam the phone down on her then I would be accused of trying to keep her from the kid. I always keep conversation all business. I don't know what else I can do. Until I get temp order, I cannot keep her out of house. I am very disappointed with my A. Phone calls are not being returned and the like. I am mad as hell about it. Nothing that I have asked her to do, has been done. I see that I am going to have to pay A a visit and raise holy hell to get things done. This is not the way to do business which bothers me because things like this causes stuff to fall through the cracks and stuff gets overlooked.<p>Mad in the city to large to hate.

Thanks for the advise everyone.... W and I have agreed that we are working on the marriage, she has agreed to no contact with OM, changed her phone numbes, email, etc so that is all going well. She is spending most of days this week at our house, she has started to pack up her apartment, she has sent a letter advising them that she is vacating on June 28th... she has scheduled her utilities to be turned off,etc.
She spent the night at the house last night too...
we watched the hockey game until after 11pm and then went right to bed, everything went well..<p>I will take your advice and
I will talk to her today about moving her move back home date from June 28 to June 15th. We can't do it any sooner as I have to find a truck to rent and to find a few friends to help out. I will let you know after we talk...<p>Petvet, when my WS would call me to "check up" I would check the caller id, if it was her then it would go into voice mail. I would check the voice mail, if it was urgent then I would call back immedately but if it was just to chat, then I didn't return the call. Your WS is still getting an EN fulfilled by you, if you are in a strict Plan B you need to attempt to find a why to cut this off... I understand the legal issues about her coming into the house but i would try to find ways to avoid contact with her to force reality.. I had an agreement with my ws that when we exchanged the children, we would open door, let the kids go in, and leave without ever entering each other's dwelling. If the WS is getting some ENs meet by BS and others by OM, there is no reasons to change. Looking back at my situation, I believe that if I would have gone to a stict Plan B alot sooner than I did, things would of changed sooner.
I just wasn't strong enough to do a stict Plan B until the end, I needed her to meet some of my ENs and just hearing her voice would do it for me..
Be strong...
Dave

W called last night a said that she wants to talk to me. I think she may want to ask me not to make D difficult including child support, but I could be wrong. We will see.<p>Dave: Sounds like things are getting better and better. Good for you and your family. God bless you.

Petvet,

Good luck tonight, hope things go well.

Dave,

Things do sound good for your situation, keep up the good work.

Stay Strong!

Wallace