Avondale, your H is clearly in the fog, he is confused, mixedup, whatever you want to call it. Clearly he is not happy, he believes the A is going to solve his problems and make him happy. In time, he will learn that you cannot run from your problems and running only makes things worse. For now, there is not much you can do except work on yourself, you need to let him learn this on his own, some learn quickly, others take years to find themselves but I believe tha evenetually he will come to this realization.

Wallace, I wonder what is up with MIL... interesting....

Petvet, try not to think about what you will do if she comes back, you will cross that bridge when you get to it, for now, just stay the course, I think what you are doing is working, for both you personally, and to help push your WW into reality. Stay strong..

Dave

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Original post by Petvet:<strong>
TooMuchCoffeeMan: Do you have custody of your kids?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes I do have custody of our two daughters.

My xWW's out of control behavior was responsable for the court to view me as the best fit parent for our daughters.

I hope that the court also agrees that you are the better parent.

Hello all!!

Its nice to see and hear all the wonderful advice. Well I haven't been doing to much lately just staying out of the heat wave.

Well OD should have letter now, don't know what to expect on that issue, I guess it will tell if wifey[xw] kept her in the open or not as she said.

XW should have CS modification papers now, I'm sure she's in a mad rush to get it done, every week or month she waits is bigger mess of backpay for her since she being overpaid by me.

Since she has no house phone she establish a number for me to call and contact them and then they call back later. Well I had to leave a message today for XW that someone broke into a storage unit I had and they stole her mothers possessions they took every box in there nothing high value just sentimental. Her mother is deceased. I don't know if she will be concerned or not? she's 1,200 miles away from the stuff and have not seen it 5 years. She was suppose to had it all shipped to her. My heart was broken when I found out.

Anyway the next week or two is going to be interesting having to maybe communicate with xw.

Does anyone know if there WW grieved over them, I know the WS grieve's the lose of OP, but what about over the BS? any info on that? In about 2-3 months my xw has been in this state of mind for 2 years I wonder if she's ever grieved over me or does it come at the end of the fog when OM leaves?

Thanks.....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by EverlastingCompassion:
<strong>Does anyone know if there WW grieved over them, I know the WS grieve's the lose of OP, but what about over the BS? any info on that? In about 2-3 months my xw has been in this state of mind for 2 years I wonder if she's ever grieved over me or does it come at the end of the fog when OM leaves?

Thanks.....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh yeah there have been quite a few hit and run posters that have told their stories of beign xWS that left their BS and later on, after the OP has left them, grieve the loss of their BS. They are quite heartwrenching stories because in most of them, the BS have moved forward with their lives and started new relationships. It's too bad that they were in such pain that they did not stick around to be helped by us. I hope that God has helped them heal from the pain and weight of their guilt.

EverlastingCompassion: TooMuchCoffeeman was right in his assessment of the reality check felt my WS after they have left their BS. Basically speaking, the WSs are basically in no mans land because the affairs have ended and they have given up everything. They look like fools. Do you still love your xW?

Later.

Hi Petvet - Do I still love my xw? is a tough question? I think I'm in love with the person she once was. Based on all things she's done in the past 2 years it's even hard to say she is my friend. It's sad to say but I really see her as a threat to my life somewhat, but I still focus on who she used to be. We used to have endless times together.

A friend contacted me last night, checking to see how I was doing and xw was doing, she was friends to me and my xw, but she was real closer to my W. She always saw us as one and felt if she talked to one she was talking to the other.

She told me something lastnight that I knew but I was surprized she knew. She said: You know, something was bound to happen and change had to take place, not divorce or separation or anything, then she said you know, your W truly did love you but the problem came when you started growing in many area's of your life, she said when you guys started dating in highschool and got married afterwards, she felt she always had you in her control and it was security to her, she was also more advanced than you in a lot of ways, but when you started advancing in life and became the leader you always were, she felt she was losing control over you. She said she had you controlled by money, by sex, her knowledge,your spiritual walk with God, etc.....she saw you as one of the kids almost in your inabilities for many years, but also as an authority in her life.

Ok, after she said this I started thinking back because I knew some of this but its different when an outsider tells you this. Then I went back to a email my WW sent to me where it shows her lose of control over me, she's not only writting from fog talk because of OM, but its also defeat of a person who lost control over another. Yes, she has a boyfriend when she wrote this but, during OD graduation, I found out the guy is younger than her maybe by 5 years, she needed that control again. What's amazing about this she wrote about we handle money diff and as you know she can't pay her bills and hasn't been since she left.

Her Email: This was about Mar 2002

As for us, we aren't compatible anymore. We don't enjoy the same things. We don't listen to the same music. The only thing we have in
common is the desire to succeed in business and our children. But even our methods of succeeding are different. Where I want to be is not
where you want to be (California). Where you want to be is not where I want to be (Missouri). Even our religious beliefs are different. The way I handle money is different from the way you handle it. What I like to cook and eat is different from what you like to cook and eat. The places that I like to go are not the places you like to go and vice versa. We are just 2 totally different people now. The woman I am is not the woman you need. The man you are is not the man I need. We've lived apart for over a year and we are not the same people anymore.

Anyway she's excusing me from the marriage why I should move on but also she's defeated of control over over me.

My W has told me that when we were apart, she cried herself to sleep many nights, she missed me, the kids, her life, etc. I never expected to hear this, when we were apart, she always seemed so happy, that life was great with OM. I think that WS put on a front to the BS, they don't want us to see that maybe things are not so great.

I also think that in most cases, the WS has some sort of internal problem that leads to the affair. Of course if the spouse is not meeting their ENs that contributes but I believe that most have some issue on their own. For EC is sounds like his XW had a control problem, for me, it was my W self esteem and inability to face problems. Until the WS is ready to face their own issues, there can be no true reconciliation and the A will probably continue, ie the fog. My 2 cents.

Take care,
Dave

Hi All,
To the best of my knowledge, my WW has not grieved over her "M" or the lose of her family.
Of course I have not heard from her in almost four months so it's hard to say, but I don't think there is very much grieving going on.
I have read other posts where the WS does grieve over the BS, but it's only after the OP has left the picture.
I believe that once reality sets in for them as to what they gave up... that is when they begin to grieve for the BS.
Usually it's to late because the BS has either moved on, or moved apart such as EC has referred to
I agree with TMCM, Petvet, and Dave's posts.
It's sad that people don't think before they act. if they did... most of us probably wouldn't be here.
Stay Strong!
Wallace

Thanks Davepr for sharing that, I just wonder sometime if they WS's ever feel anything for the BS as much as we do for them.

My xw gives the impression today as if being away from me is the best thing that ever happened and she's on this happy go lucky journey, never looking back.

Thanks

Thanks Wallace Good Point.

EC,
IMHO, I think that most WSs are in such a deep fog while being with OP that they don't grieve very much for the BS.
In fact most of them use the BS and any unhappy thoughts of the "M" as justification for continuing their "A".
The WS looks at all the negatives of the "M" and compares it to the life they are leading with the "OP" at the moment.
I believe that the WS compares the life they are living now with the life they had in their "M" on a daily basis. I believe they do this everyday... for a very long period of time.
When the life they had in their "M" is more fullfilling than with the "OP", or the "OP" dumps them, then and only then is there a chance for a "M" to be truly reconciled.
I don't believe that the "WS's" grief, compares to the grief the "BS" feels.
If the "WS" felt anything like the "BS" did, there would be a lot less "D".
That's my take on it anyway.
Stay Strong!
Wallace

Hi all!

EC: You know I believe my W has some control issues. My mom told me from the get go that my W would be a control freck. I believe that the turning point of her moving out was when she felt she had no control. She use to always say to me that I never listen to her or do what she wanted me to do. Case in point, after she moved out, she wanted me to sign away all of my rights to her life insurance policies, retirement, investments, etc. Of course, my attorney said no way in hell. One day I arrived at her spacious Biltmore Estate crib, and she had all the paper work in hand. She asked me to sign the papers; I said no then she firmly said "just sign it, do what I tell you to do". That was an eye opener, but made my point that she felt she had no control over me. She did not want a partnership but a dictatorship. She use to write me letters saying that we had nothing in common. When I think back, I noticed that she could not get alone with mature, well educated women; however, she has many male and female misfits that she calls friends including the OP. She has called me at work twice in two days. I say very little if anything. At this point, whether WS feel guilt or not does not matter at a certain point. As I said earlier, it's either for you or it's against you.

Later.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Wallace:
<strong>
I don't believe that the "WS's" grief, compares to the grief the "BS" feels.
If the "WS" felt anything like the "BS" did, there would be a lot less "D".
That's my take on it anyway.
Stay Strong!
Wallace</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with you for the most part Wallace, but I've seen quite a few xWS's that have attempted suicide when the full realization of what they did hits them right smack between the eyes. Nobody wants to be the bad guy and WS's are no exception so they tend to build these walls made of excuses against the BS's to justify their A's but if and when they can no longer use their excuses to protect themselves, they find themselves engulfed in an unbearable sea of guilt. The thing is that their BS has moved on and they no longer have their OP to help them cope, so they end up alone in their most darkest hour. Talk about punishment.

As for myself I'd rather be the BS than the WS any day of the week.

<small>[ August 09, 2002, 03:28 AM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Hello all, very good postings here. Thats a good earthshaking point TMCM....Now I remember a persons post where their WS tried to commit suicide after OP left. I think her post name is DanaB....her WH tried that after marriage relationship with OP failed......So I guess what you say is true, they are consumed in a sea of guilt when OP hits the road.

Hi all:

TMCM:Very good point on the grief issue with the WS. They reap what they sow. What goes around comes around. I guess you can tell that I have no pity. You are very insightful. I'm glad you and EC have join the rest of the gang at this thread.

Avondale: Have you heard from hubby?

RMA: What's your comment on the last couple of posts?

Later.

Hi y'all,

PETVET- nothing new since my last post 8/6...I think he's in NY finishing a class but indicated he'd get his stuff early next week. Meanwhile, I hate my imagination <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Thanks for asking!

ALL - I'm curious, with all this talk about WS guilt, does that make a case for "holding out" on developing new relationships by BS as part of "moving on"? Or is it just part of the price one pays for infidelity? Should it even matter to BS? (I think I know what Petvet's answer will be, lol)Hope you all have a great weekend!

Hello all,

EC's friend wrote:"but when you started advancing in life and became the leader you always were, she felt she was losing control over you."

RMA reply: I have posted numerous times on these boards that I think control issues are paramount issues in affairs. Perhaps for some it is control over the other spouse, but mostly, I truly believe that the WS has come to a point in his/her life where he/she feels 100% out of control of their own lives and they look for an escape/diversion. For people seeking a diversion it may become drinking, drugs, gambling, etc. or in our case, affair(s).

I really believe the affair is more about the unhappiness of the WS than the state of the marriage, in many cases. The WS is really not happy with where they are at that point in their life, and the marriage is a part of that. The unhappiness is internal to the WS.

The solution lies in the WS's ability to cope and problem solve themselves out of their own unhappy situations. That may involve the BS doing a better job to meet ENs, not LB, etc, as these may be big contributors to the WS's unhappiness. But, boys and girls, we are ALL adults and all responsible for ourselves, when push comes to shove. If we want to have a good partner, we have to be a good partner. The WS has a responsiblity to the BS to try to work through the issues in which the BS is contributing to the general state of unhappiness. However, most of us on these boards were never given a fair chance to do that. Our spouses became involved with someone else and our WS spent the effort and energy in making the affair relationship work rather than trying to cope and problem solve the marital relationship.

What is worrisome is that the WS learns through this that the best way to revolve conflict and work through problems is to get up and leave them behind. Unfortunately, history does have a way of repeating itself, if not efforts are made to change behaviors and thinking.

RMA

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What is worrisome is that the WS learns through this that the best way to revolve conflict and work through problems
is to get up and leave them behind. Unfortunately, history does have a way of repeating itself, if not efforts are made
to change behaviors and thinking.

RMA </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I totally agree with this, this was so true in our case.... but becasue so much of the problem is as RMA put it "internal to the WS" the problems just keep getting worse for the WS so they have to to run further, like many of your WS are doing, or face reality like my W finally did.
I compare it to a drug addict, they know it is bad for them, they can't stop doing it, they pretend that everything is fine to everyone else and many times to themselves.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I agree with you for the most part Wallace, but I've seen quite a few xWS's that have attempted suicide when the full
realization of what they did hits them right smack between the eyes. Nobody wants to be the bad guy and WS's are
no exception so they tend to build these walls made of excuses against the BS's to justify their A's but if and when
they can no longer use their excuses to protect themselves, they find themselves engulfed in an unbearable sea of
guilt. The thing is that their BS has moved on and they no longer have their OP to help them cope, so they end up
alone in their most darkest hour. Talk about punishment. TMCM </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I spoke with several of the WS that post her on MB, one in particular helped me alot. I WS helping a BS... well she ended up back with her H and going through all of this she was a good coach. Here are parts of 2 different e-mails she sent to me, very insightful.

"More than likely, Lynn will be one of the statistics. Her life with the OM probably will explode. But, if she someday decides to come knocking at your door, it may be too little too late.

Life somehow or another does go on. You've suffered for far too long. However, the D proceedings will require a whole new type of strength. Then, there is grieving afterwards to look forward too.

Dave, the most important thing in life is YOU and your kids. I would have concerns over someone else around my kids too. It will be interesting to find out if the law helps you out in regards to this kind of situation. How about the fact that Lynn is not currently employed? Doesn't that give you any leverage in custody? I'm just throwing thoughts out there.

The interesting thing is that she is flying by the seat of her pants. She emails that she doesn't know what to do, yet looks at homes with the OM. She is definitely in the place that all the books talk about. The WS is soooo predictable, it is pathetic. It is near insanity at its finest! I am so incredibly embarrassed that I was in that place, nearly 5 years ago. I still cannot believe that I was in this bad movie that is in my memories.

Well, she'll snap out of it someday and she'll regret all these decisions she's making. She'll be asked someday, by your children, why she is divorced. She won't be able to tell them anything nice, will she? "

" For me anyway and several other WW that I've spoken with, once the bubble breaks, a bewildered feeling begins to take hold. It is not something that can be explained, nor did we want to talk about it. Eventually over time, it becomes embarrassing and very very shameful. Again, difficult to discuss. After another period of time, it all starts to sink in. "My God, what have we done!" We were in pond scum. To tell someone the full ramifications of what we have done, runs the risk of hurting them further.

Depression can and probably will take hold. Not to scare you, but for you to keep in the back of your mind, I became suicidal. A couple of other woman spoke of this too. One of my email ladies was in the psychological "watch" wing for 3 weeks. However, some never experienced it as bad as others - thankfully. When the fog lifts, it exposes us fully. There is nothing to hide from any longer. The shame is overwhelming and won't wash off our skin. The guilt over the agony we have imposed on so many people is constantly on our minds. We are very paranoid that everytime we speak to our loved ones and friends, that they are thinking about their disgust towards us. We also lived in fear that the OM's wife is just around the corner for revenge.
Another huge obstacle is discovering "how" and "why" we all got ourselves into this mess. "Inner Self Reflection" as my brother puts it, is a hard nut to swallow. It can start off as blaming everyone else other than ourselves. Lynn has thrown a lot of blame your way, but will have to start looking inside herself. This obstacle was probably the roughest for me. I was a quivering mess in the corner when all my demons came out. I finally fully understood the ramifications of what I had done. I knew "why" I had the affair and I wasn't pretty. Boom, I hit bottom like a sack of potatoes."

Hi All,
I am in full agreement with what everybody has posted concerning the pain that the "WS" feels.
TMCM... I agree with the fact that many "WS" feel suicidal at some point. I also think many "BS" feel the same way at any given time as well.
My STBXW had commented to me once, that she had contemplated suicide. I looked at her in amazement when she blurped that out.
She had just come back home from one of her six week outings.
Little did I know she was out having an "A", it never even entered my mind.
When she made that statement as far as killing herself. I told her, no I begged her, to please come to me if she felt that way ever again.
I begged her to come to me and communicate with me about anything, anything at all that may have been bothering her... she never did. In fact she would always tell me that everything was fine.
I agree with your statement...when the "WS" is alone... no "OP" and the "BS" has moved on and they have no one to turn to, that they reach their darkest hour.
That by far is a true punishment far greater than anything the "BS" will ever feel IMHO.
RMA... You summed up my whole situation in your last post. You described myself and my STBXW right to a tee... that was an excellent post.
Dave ... Thank you for sharing the insight of what a "WS" is going through and feeling.
I'm just curious... she says in the post, "she will snap out of it someday"... Is this when the "OM" dumps her, that they snap out of it?
Or does she just wake up one day and realize that they have really screwed things up for themselves and everyone around them and decide it's time to try to go back home?
It's just a thought.
Hope things are still going well for you.
Petvet ... I think in spite of the control issues, she is out of control, such as RMA has stated.
I still believe she is going to do a 180 on you and make a move to come back home.
Keep doing what your doing, and I believe your "W" will come back.
Will you be ready for her when she does?
Avondale... Try not to let your imagination get to you. If you let it, it will beat you right into the ground.
Use this time on bettering yourself... don't dwell on it if you can (I know that it is easier said than done).
Jump into something that you feel like doing to occupy your time.
To answer your question about the "WS" guilt... if it really matters to the "BS".
In my case it does matter.
I would like to know what my STBXW is feeling, so I can possibly put things into perspective concerning this whole mess.
EC... I look at it like this... either our "WS" are living the life that they chose, or are living in a "sea of guilt".
In my case, I think my STBXW is living the life that she wants. I don't believe she is feeling very much guilt.
That's my 2 cents worth.
Stay Strong!
Wallace

<small>[ August 09, 2002, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: Wallace ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Dave ... Thank you for sharing the insight of what a "WS" is going through and feeling.
I'm just curious... she says in the post, "she will snap out of it someday"... Is this when the "OM" dumps her, that they
snap out of it?
Or does she just wake up one day and realize that they have really screwed things up for themselves and everyone
around them and decide it's time to try to go back home?
It's just a thought.
Hope things are still going well for you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wallace, I don't think it takes the OM dumping them to snap out of it, I think in time they come to realize that the OM and A is not what they thought it was going to be, ie reality. I know several cases like this, in these cases it was the WS that dumped the OP.
Dave