Leah - What an extra-stressful day you must have had yesterday! I hope you were able to enjoy your side of the family, if nothing else. It is a lot of trouble to do the "Turkey thing" for so many people - I've done it a number of years - and I know they all appreciate your efforts.
I'll respond to your question:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">On Wed. I wrote an e-mail to H telling him all the things that I appreciate about him </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is great - how thoughtful of you to express your thanks in a written way during Thanksgiving. Did your email contain any references to the Lord? (More about this later)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Each time he said he was too busy and he was obviously upset about something </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you thinking that what you wrote upset him, or could it be something else? I wonder if he was feeling a little bit convicted about his horrible behavior...?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> After showering, he told me he was taking a drive to think. (This is a trigger for me as "thinking" in the past included OW)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, do you think he's thinking about an OW or the e-mail you sent? From your post it seems the time frame of his "thinking" could have been triggered by the email you sent. If you're thanking the Lord in your email for sending you a Godly man, (who isn't acting godly) then he's going to feel convicted about his behavior.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So yes, he really was at his mom's </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can't remember, does his mom know about the A's?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Was I unreasonable in being disappointed with the lack of priority given to me? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely NOT! ! ! ! And it's not just priority for you - he was missing time with his kids that morning too.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Was I being controlling? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">From his paranoid, unrealistic point of view, probably. However, from a healthy marriage point of view, NO.

I think sometimes when you're in a bad state of being (marriage, personal life, job, etc.) it is impossible to assess what is healthy and reasonable. Your perspective gets skewed. "The norm" is unhealthy so we lower our expectations to that level, and don't expect/desire more. I think you know enough (and your walk with God is strong enough on its own) that you realize something isn't right but it's difficult to verbalize, much less act upon. Now the difficult question - do you have any more concrete evidence of an OW or affair?

Leah2be

My heart and prayers go out to your and your family. After reading your post I can only say that I was reminded so much of what transpired in our marriage. So I guess that means any advice or input from me will probably be flawed as our’s continued South.

You sent you husband an email telling him all the things you appreciated about him. After my former announced that she was tired of playing games and pretending I too began to tell her just how much I appreciated her, how much she was worth to me and the children and of all the other things that I had neglected in our previous years. Her thoughts on that were that I was trying to control her. Long before I discovered the presence of the OM in her life I had at various times stopped by her place of work to leave a card, note, flower or some token of appreciation for her. She felt that I was checking up on her, did not trust her and was trying to keep tabs on her every movement. While I wish that were true it was way out in left field. The Pastor I began counseling with even warned me about OM or OW entering into our lives at this juncture in our lives and I laughed at him… No way, not former, she would never do anything like that.

But I remember vividly the day I actually stopped by and entered into her place of work. A lady there said that she had just returned from lunch and would page her. When she entered the room she went completely white, I mean completely. Her reaction was one that I had never witnessed in her under any circumstances. It was only later I understood her reaction that day.

I owe him an apology. For what? (trigger) After many months of trying deal with OM and the effects he was having on my wife I finally summoned the courage to talk to his wife and ask her to please have her husband refrain from and interaction with my wife. When former learned of this she demanded that I write a letter of apology to OM and his wife telling them that I was sorry and out of line of even suggesting that there was something between the two of them. And to think I almost did just that, until I asked OM once again to stay out of our lives and he replied “When you call your wife and tell her that you have asked me to stay out of her life I will comply with your request.” Now get this…this OM was our Sunday School teacher. Needless to say I spent several months writing his name on 40 caliber slugs and inserted them in a magazine and as I forgave him I would remove them and wipe his name from them. Today I can say that there are no longer any slugs with his name on them. He has been forgiven as has my former, at least in my eyes. Where they stand is between them and God.

Were you being unreasonable? From where I sit I would have to say no.

Were you being controlling? From where I sit, again, no.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I sincerely do want to be reasonable and respectful in my relationship with my H. I'm trying to understand what is continuously going wrong between us.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I too felt this way and still continue to today…alas…as of yet still treat her this way and am still trying to understand what is wrong between us. I feel that it is not what is wrong with us but more of a matter of what is wrong between them and God.

I can tell you this, the greatest two fears in my formers mind was her parents learning about the OM in her life and actually filing for divorce. The 2nd OM and I have had several conversations since he and his wife have decided to work on their marriage (yes, it is doing quite well at this time) and he told me that my former was waiting for me to file for divorce, that while I had changed and was doing everything that she had ever dreamed of she still felt I was trying to control and manipulate her every waking minute. A thought that continues on until today. Just the other day I was told by her best friend that former feels that I am trying to control her relationships with other men. Ha! In 17 months she and I have had to conversations about her boyfriends, one in September of last year when she was including our YD in her dates and again this October when I learned that he had been added to the list of authorized people to pick our children up from school. Two conversations in 17 months and each one almost a year apart and I am trying to control her.

I feel the real issue is not you but him. Is he waiting for you to make a move and file for divorce? As much as I hate to even mention it, it there doubts in your mind that he is committed to this marriage? Do you fear that he may be involved with OM at this time? I know you struggle between what is right and best in Gods eyes and the eyes of your children, what is best for your children and probably many other issues. But I also know the struggle of continuing to live in that type of environment where you feel that you give and give and never see anything in return.

From my perspective you have some really hard decisions to make. From a Biblical view I believe you have the right to divorce your husband because of adultery. No, that is not the first option as we should be willing to forgive and restore that covenant we made with our spouses and God but if the two of you are not each committed to that then what is in store for the remainder of your life? It sounds as if you have forgiven and have committed to this relationship but you are the only one that has done that, he’s still out in left field somewhere trying to figure out what he would like to do.

Maybe divorce is what he wants but does not have the courage to be the “bad guy” and actually file. Maybe legal separation before divorce is needed for him to “find himself.” I know that when my former spoke those words almost 2 years ago I had an awakening in what she needed and desired from a marriage, alas it appeared in her mind to be too late as the grass looked greener on the other side. Does either of us really know where and what our spouse’s minds really think about. I do know that just this year, while in the midst of her serious relationship with her last boyfriend my former felt like this:

I have everything I need, a nice house, all the furnishings I need or desire, a nice car, three wonderful children and a man whom I love and I feel loves me. But…I feel so alone, so empty inside. I have no idea who to trust, who to lean on or who to love.

I ask, does that sound like someone who is happy with themselves or their present situation. And even in the midst of that the best she can say is that we can be friendly but not friends.

And as much as I hate to admit it I see a lot of what you describe in your husband in my former wife, then and now.

And we won’t even get into the family thing; just know that blood is thicker than water and that will always be an uphill struggle. Avondale and I both can attest to that.

While none of what I have written probably helps you just know that you and your family are in my prayers. Listen to God and separate your desires from His desires and see where that leads you. Children are resilient, children are strong and as long as they see a least one of the parents attempting to make life better for them they bounce back even quicker.

May God Bless You Today

P.S. Duh! after cutting and pasting I just realized how long that was. me thinks prehaps I best shut my mouth <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> and after reading Avondale's post I almost deleted it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<small>[ November 26, 2004, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: Trusting Him ]</small>

Avondale and Trusting Him

I just wanted to thank you both so much for your quick replies. I have read both of your responses and was affirmed and encouraged by your caring words. I've been thinking of what you wrote all afternoon. I was gone for most of the day and have to take off again in a few minutes.

I'm taking my middle daughter and some of her friends out for the evening. This is part of an early birthday gift. Two of my girls are December birthdays. Keeps me busy! I'll write more when I can. Thanks again.

Avondale,

I just wrote a long post to you and just managed to lose it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I hate it when I do that. I attempted to quote you and respond to you that way, but then when I went back to read and quote Trusting Him it all disappeared. So apparently quotes can only be a one time deal. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I'll give the "Condensed Version" of my post. You asked if I wrote about the Lord in my e-mail. After much consideration of what to write, I decided against that. I was trying to keep it positive yet sincere. A tricky thing at times, based on where we are with each other.

I believe he was upset with things going on at work, although I don't know if that's all he was upset about. Conviction? An interesting thought. Possibly. I'm never quite sure what is on H's mind. Because of his erratic, on the edge behaviour, I often can't figure out what he's thinking or doing.

So in answer to your question about OW, I truly don't know. There may or may not be one. I continuly pray that truth will be revealed. I have no concrete evidence either way at this point in time.

The one thing that causes me to doubt my H's fidelity is the lack of intimacy here. It's been almost a year without SF. That isn't for lack of interest on my part. Rather unusual for a healthy 39 year old man...don't you think?

Sorry, I lost my first post. I'm not sure I got to answer all of your questions but I'm afraid of doing the quote thing again. Thanks again Avondale for sharing your perspective. I always enjoy hearing from you.

Trusting Him,

Thank you,too, for your sympathetic and caring words. They mean so much to me. I had to smile when you wrote that my marriage reminds you a lot of your's. I often think the same thing when I read your posts. Your former seems to have much in common with my H. Their perspectives and communication seem very similar. I guess that is a pretty scarry thought. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Writing his name on 40 caliber slugs...what a concrete and creative way to forgive someone. God alone can help us with this.
A Bible study by Beth Moore entitled "Breaking Free" helped me through the forgiveness process. I'm finding it to be an ongoing thing with my H.

When you wrote that you often have questioned and tried to understand what went wrong in your marriage as I am doing, it made me remember something I wrote long ago to you. I wrote that we just have to let go and try not to focus too much on what they are thinking or doing because it can be so counter productive. I guess I need to follow my own advice. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I too often lose my focus and get too caught up in trying to fix something I can't fix. Letting go is not one of my stronger suits.

You wrote that it's probably getting time to make some tough decisions. I feel like I've been on this roller-coaster for way too long. It will be six years in January since it began. I'm trying so hard to wait on the Lord and do the right thing, yet it seems I'm continuously wondering what the "right" thing is. You are so right when you say it is difficult to live in a marriage where you are the only one who truly seems to be giving and trying. It is exhausting.

I'd have to write a book if I were to detail all the thoughts I have in regard to staying in this "room-mate type marriage" verses divorce. I struggle so to know what God would want. I don't think he would want us to live with such disrespect and disregard, yet I know He hates divorce. It seems I'm constantly trying to choose the lesser of two evils.

I have thought a separation would be helpful but in our state there is no such thing as a legal separation. You have to file divorce to get things moving. Also, my H has refused to leave. He says I can leave if I'm not happy and I can leave the girls with him. Obviously, I am not going to do that. So, all in all, I have myself in a real dilema. I so appreciate your thoughts and prayers, as only God truly has the answers. Thanks again, Trusting Him. Take care!

After giving it much more thought, I'm at the point where I feel my only answer to survival in this relationship is to emotionally detach and let go. I'm still not really sure how to do that.

It seems to be the opposite of everything I am. I tend to be warm and responsive to others. My hearts right there but I'm so tired of the hurt and rejection. Is there any other answer? If I need to practice detachment, I really need some help. Thanks to all for any suggestions.

Leah ,
I was going to reply earlier but had a computer situation myself. Let me suggest whenever you write a long post, to write it in a word processing program first (like MS Word or WordPerfect) and copy and paste it to MB. Then if it gets lost, you just copy and paste again.
I know just thinking of this goes against everything in your soul. I don’t remember what state you live in. I’m sure you’ve thought of all the ramifications of any legal action. Ultimately, it is your decision. Have you gotten any (recent) input from the pastor/elders/leaders in your church?

Also, I don’t know if it’s a good idea about practicing detachment; it seems that would really weigh your soul down a lot in an unhealthy way. Why not post about that subject on the EN board? It would be good to get some input from the old timers over there.

You really are in my prayers! Much love to you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Avondale,

I live in Virginia. I'm not thinking of taking any immediate legal action as it really isn't a good time for that. But I am thinking about the whole emotional detachment thing. I certainly do appreciate what you have to say about it seeming "unhealthy". I can wonder about that too. But what I'm doing now is also unhealthy...continuously trying to have an authentic relationship with someone who doesn't really want me in the same way.

Thanks for the sugestion of writing on EN board. I've done that and will try writing it up different to see if there's any response. Thanks most of all for being a caring friend. I appreciate you so very much!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

"Set them free. It's the only way to keep them.

If they feel trapped in a "bad" marriage, attempts to keep them will only intensify the trapped feeling and they will only want to escape more.

I earned my experience the hard way. I hope it will help my brother."

The above is from "Kevin" (Father of 1 Husband of 0) way up toward the beginning of this thread. I am expecting to be served with divorce papers this week. I don't know how to respond. Delay, hoping she'll change her mind or see something different in me? Or do as recommended here and give her the divorce as quickly as possible? The ramifications for selling our house (which I know she wants to do) is huge. Please advise.

XScoundrel - The person to whom you are referring, “Kevin” only posted on this thread that one time, three years ago. Please don’t take that one post out of context. If you read the posts after that one, you will see where several "old timers" with experience said to NOT do that. If you're the one to file, you need to be able to live with the worst case scenario - that you ended your marriage. Here at MB, one receives all kinds of “advice” and one has to consider it all and apply it to their own unique situation. That goes for any thread you read <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You said: Or do as recommended here and give her the divorce as quickly as possible?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That was never recommended here. But it does go (somewhat, if applied correctly in certain situations) along with Dobson’s “Tough Love” book. Most of us who have continued with this thread tried to delay as long as possible and/or gave many second chances to our WS. I think all of us did it out of hope that they’d come out of their fog. Not everyone was successful in recovering their M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You said: The ramifications for selling our house (which I know she wants to do) is huge. Please advise.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can you elaborate more? I’m sure we’d be glad to help if we knew more about your story. What state do you live in? Do you HAVE to sell your house as part of a financial settlement? Has one of you already moved out? What are you thinking regarding custody? Your signature line implies you’re in recovery. Did a specific incident happen to change that status?

<small>[ November 28, 2004, 05:51 AM: Message edited by: avondale25 ]</small>

Hi all! Just bouncing in for a moment.

Leah: Once the trust factor has been broken, it takes alot of time to get it back. As I told Avondale, one has to decide how much one can take before one's health and mental state is affected.

Avondale: Did I hear something about a trip! Jamaica, Belize, Mexico (area just south of San Diego), Bermuda, etc. I think it about time for you to get your groove on. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Wallace: Well Bud, it's time to do alot of soul searching about your upcoming M. Hey, does she have a RING? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Have you propose? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Me: No date, ring, or anything!

Later.

Leah2be

I have to retract most of what I wrote yesterday. I was just watching “The Preachers Wife” and it brought to mind so many things that I tried, have tried and continue to try to express, it just did it in a better way than I ever could. And yes…I have to say I spent a good part of the movie wiping the tears from my eyes.

A statement that really stood out was when the preacher was telling his wife “When we choose to love someone we are really choosing to love God.” Ouch! That hit home with me in my present situation but it also brought to mind you and your current situation.

Can I tell you how to love your spouse? No. Can I tell you that it will get better? No, I cannot. What I can tell you is that a marriage is a covenant relationship between us and God. And in the midst of your struggles you can be assured that He will never leave your nor forsake you. In our human ways we find it so hard to grasp the concept or the depth of His love for us. Under God’s laws are you allowed divorce? Yes, but I do feel that forgiveness and a decision to honor that covenant relationship takes precedence. We are commanded to love and I believe also to forgive but we are not commanded to divorce.

Just a prayer for you,

So, for this cause I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ of whom the whole family in Heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man; that Christ may dwell in your heart by faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth and length and depth and height, and to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge, that you might be filled with all the fullness of God. Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, forever.

But in all these things you can more than conquer through Him who loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate you from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Amen

Does this give you the wisdom or strength to continue to stay in your present situation? I have no idea but I can say or express that because of the love and desire that I still have for my former wife, a love that in no way even begins to compare to the Love that Christ has for us, that it is His desire and His wish that somehow…someway…you have the marriage that you desire to have.

What happens when we are filled with the fullness of God? We begin to love just as Christ loved us. That agape love which only comes from Him and through Him as we learn to look and depend on Him. That love where we find ourselves able to love others expecting absolutely nothing in return. Delight yourself also in Jehovah, and He will give you the desires of your heart. For I know the purposes which I am purposing for you, says Jehovah; purposes of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you shall call on Me, and you shall go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. And you shall seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.

Where does this put us? Depending on him in hope and faith that as we learn to love as He loved that He will give us the desires of our heart. But in the end it is still a decision that only you and God can make together. A decision that I pray He will lead you too and then give you the strength and wisdom to stand by that decision.

I have discovered that the fruit of the Spirit is just that, fruit. For so long I had always quoted that verse as plural, I guess meaning or thinking that I got to choose which specific fruit I wanted. Only in the last two years have I discovered that it is singular and I am supposed to be learning to express ALL of the fruit of the Spirit:

Love
Joy
Peace
Long-suffering
Kindness
Goodness
Faith
Meekness
Self-control

And as I look back over that list it is indeed a scary thought because I know that without His presence and His love flowing through me that no one will see any of those traits in me.

Bear in mind that everything written is done so in context of Dobson's "Tough Love". You can and are epected to set healthy boundaries that your husband can see and respect. Weather he does is his choice.

Trusting Him,

You need to be a writer. What you wrote was so beautiful it brought tears to my eyes. It is a post I will re-read in the future. Such Godly, wonderful thoughts - So encouraging! Thank you for giving your valuable time in writing such a wonderful post.

I truly do not know what the future holds but I know Who holds my hand, as the song goes. I will continue to look to Him as He alone is my One True Hope. Thank you for the verses. I will read them again tomorrow as it's nearing one in the morning. I'll write again when I'm a bit more awake. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> God bless you for reminding me of our Hope!

Avondale, thanks for your response. My story is under the "journey of pain" thread. I am still in active recovery. My wife, when she has been trying, has tried to recover on her own. Nothing legal has been determined yet but I know she wants to sell our house. I am NOT seeking divorce, she is. In some ways I was 'lucky' on d-day because I was not in a relationship at the time that I had to break off. I've never wanted to lose my family.

Trusting Him,

Thank you again for the inspiring post. I just finished reading it again. I have a question for you in regards to what you have written.

Do you think that in order to stay and continue to show Agape love to my H, that I might need to detach some emotionally? I'm asking because I feel to love him in a romantic, human way at all is to ask to be hurt. You write that Agape love is able to give with no expectation of anything in return. I agree. But does that require a little of the "human love" being put on hold through a process of detachment? I've asked about this over in the Emotional Needs forum. I would be interested in your perspective.

I hope my question makes sense to you. This is an area of thought that I have come back to as the pain in this marriage continues. Would it be a healthy boundary at this point? Thanks for your input.

Avondale,

How are you doing my friend? I've been thinking about you a lot this past week. Is anything official yet? I hope you enjoyed a Happy Thanksgiving and that you are doing okay. Please let us know when you can. God bless!

Hey All,

Hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving!

Had a very nice time at my G/F's house on Thanksgiving... lots of good food, and good company as well... it was very enjoyable.

leah...

When I had my business, I was not the best husband in the world. In fact I was very far from it. I concentrated on the business not knowing that behind the curtain, my "M" was falling apart.

I only wanted to be the best provider I could be... and I wanted my family to not have to go without... and they didn't. Except for one major thing... me!

Me being a Father, and a Husband.

For 23 years I thought I was doing all the right things, when in fact I was doing a terrible job as a family man. I was consumed with business, and a very profitable business it was... but such as most everything... all things must pass.

I lost my business... lost my "M", and had my family shattered into pieces, that will probably never, ever be put back together.

I never got the emails from my exW that you sent to your "H". All I ever got for a response in my "M", is that everything was just fine. Well, in fact everything was not just fine... as you can see... and everyone in my family paid a very dear price for it all.

I think you may have touched a nerve with your "H".

I think, he "IS" in fact thinking about what he has going, and he may be in fact taking a look at what in fact is at stake, and the possibilties of losing his family.

You did a good Plan A. move, and I would keep that up... I wouldn't detach as of yet.

A friend of mine who use to post quite a bit did the detachment scenario (I wish she was here to give you her opinion on all of this). Her name was "Free", and she put God behind her on this and made up her mind that her "H" was either going to straighten out, or she was going to "D" him. This went on for quite sometime... but eventually... through God's will he did a complete about face and their "M" has never been better.

Free, if you read this... please chime in and give Leah your perspective on this.

Hang in there Leah, and give it some more time. It's easier to work on a "M" that's broken, than to work on one that has been completely destroyed by "D".

I understand exactly how you feel... once trust is broken... it takes a huge effort for the other person to regain that trust back... and sometimes it will never be regained, depending on how they act from that point foward.

I don't buy in on agape love in "M"... you either love that person with very emotional feelings, or it's time to call it a day.

IMHO... you can't love someone, and I mean really love someone, without any emotional attachment. Your just fooling yourself, and causing everyone involved nothing but heartbreak.

Trusting Him...

Excellent prayer you posted... it was very uplifting, and if you have more in you... feel free to post them.

I'm glad to hear that your eye surgery went well... praise God.

Many years ago... I had to have my eyes scraped when I worked on construction sites. I had to have it done three times... and it's no fun.

I think I would rather about lose anything, but my eyesight... glad to hear that you came through it well.

Sorry to hear that you didn't get to spend Thanksgiving with your family... but look at all the good that came out of it in spite of the circumstances. The Lord will surely bless you if you continue down the road your following.

I had to smile when you told us of writing the OM's name on the bullets. I know that feeling all to well... unfortunately for me... I haven't gotten past the forgiving stages yet. I thought I had... but when the stuff still keeps coming at you... it makes it tough.

Petvet...

Well my friend... I did buy my G/F an engagement ring, and once this IRS stuff is finished, we are going to set a date to get "M".

I don't remember proposing to her... we were in a jewelry store, and it just kind of happened.

We are suppose to wait until the Kids get up and move forward, but she wants to go ahead with a summer wedding... so I guess we will see if in fact it happens.

I'm not in any hurry... I have the IRS to take up all of my time. LOL!

Well my G/F want's a very small intimate wedding, but hey... I think we could make a "Tough Love" wedding out of it, if she gives me the nod.

Personally though... I'm torn.

I do want to marry her... but I'm not sure I'm ready to go through with the commitment of "M" right at the moment. I still have a lot of issues I'm dealing with, spiritually, mentally, financially, and socially.

She has a full court press on, and I'm playing defense at the moment, but in reality, I just want to give in, and go through with it... but it just scares me to death.

Could use some advice on this, as I'm going deeper into the totality of it all... and want to make sure it's not another mistake, such as my last "M" turned out to be.

XScoundrel....

Welcome to the "Tough Love" thread.

Sorry to see you here, but if you have to be here... this place is as good as any.

I briefly read through your thread, and your in a very difficult postion I'm afraid to say.

You broke a convenant when you went out and had the "A's" you had.

I don't know if you know how devestating that is, when the other spouse finds out about it... but it is in fact like having your heart ripped out of your very body.

Your "W" is very hurt and very distrusting, and she has every right to be. Your shattered her trust in you... and that is going to take some serious work to regain that back.

Sometimes you can regain that trust back... depending on the person. With others... no matter what you do... it will never ever be regained.

Your dealing with a person who most likely is very hurt. She may get pat it... but on the other hand... she may never get past it.

Keep going to your meetings, and keep doing your Plan A. Only time will tell what direction you may be heading in.

I will give you credit... at least you cleaned up your act, and are doing the things that need to be done.

Prayers for you my friend, as I know the angst you are feeling.

avondale...

How did you make out with your meeting?

If I do get "M" this coming summer... you will be the first person I invite to the "Tough Love" wedding.

I'm glad to hear that your taking a negative and turning it into positive (going on a trip with the additional money).

Let us know how it all turned out for you.

(((((avondale)))))

Hope everyone is getting along well.

Stay Strong!

<small>[ November 29, 2004, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: Wallace ]</small>

Wallace ! Dear Wallace <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Your post is soooooo full of inconsistancies. Since I’m the helpful sort, I’ll point them out to you:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't remember proposing to her </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That’s cuz you didn’t....she has manipulated you.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We are suppose to wait until the Kids get up and move forward, but she wants to go ahead with a summer wedding </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right - you both had an agreement to wait for the kids to move out. Is her agenda more important than the welfare of your kids?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do want to marry her... but </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stop right there buddy. If you ever have reason to say “....BUT” then you need to stop and reassess if you really want to do whatever it is (in your case, marry).
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I still have a lot of issues I'm dealing with, spiritually, mentally, financially, and socially </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you think you’ll be the best hubby in the world (which is what your g/f deserves) if that’s the case?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She has a full court press on, and I'm playing defense at the moment </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Obviously
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just want to give in, and go through with it... but it just scares me to death. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is “giving in and going through it” a picture of wedded bliss??
Wallace, you’re just not ready, and I don’t think she is either. I think she just wants security and is probably dealing with issues herself.

Where is Relady when I need her?!?!? If you do get married, I still wanna attend!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Your post to Leah was VERY well put.

Trusting - That was a good prayer. How are you doing? Any more in-law interaction?
Me - Should be signing D papers today or tomorrow, depending on mail. I'll keep y'all posted. I close on MY house Friday - oh the responsibility <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

[/B] [B]Wallace,

Thanks for writing me with your perspective on things. I appreciate and respect your viewpoint. It's interesting to know your history of priorities with family and business. If you don't mind, I'd like to pick your brain a bit to see if you might be able to shed some light on our situation in regards to husbands misplaced priorities.

If your wife had ever confronted you with her desire to have you home more, would you have done things differently? I know you would now knowing what you know, but how would you have responded then?

I ask because my H and I have had many discussions about his business and my feelings in regard to his huge absense in our lives. I've expressed to him that I would very sincerely love to live in a smaller home, continue to drive my old van, etc. and have him home with us,than all the possible stuff we might accumulate. The material goods mean so little to me in comparison with our marriage and our family.

He definitely knows how I feel, yet he is so driven to be successful and is so consumed by his business. I just think it is so sad to see him miss out on all that is truly important in life.

What do you think would be my best strategy in encouraging him to invest more here at home verses his business? Do I just keep my mouth shut since he already knows how much he is missed? It seems by not saying anything, he assumes everything is okay. He manages to quickly forget all past conversations. But on some level, he must know the truth about our relationship and his absense. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Any thoughts you or others might have on this would be appreciated.

And now onto you... Wallace, my friend, I'm very concerned about you and your upcoming wedding. You didn't leave us very secure with the idea that you're at all eager about the timing of this union. It seems you're feeling coerced into doing something you're not at all sure of. I'd hate for you to get into a situation that you later regret or even possibly resent your G/F for.

Please, please be careful. Think through this thing. If she's the right one, she will be willing to wait for the right time. How many more years do you have before your children are grown? I'd love to see you not only more comfortable but also excited to make this lady your bride!

Avondale,

I know I'm no Relady but I gave it my best shot. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Just want you to know you're very much in my thoughts and prayers. Much love to you Avondale. ((((((Avondale)))))

Hi All,

Well so far so good with my computer... it's still going, with a few glitches here and there, but we are working them through. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

avondale...

Your right! I am all over the place with my mind set.

I think the biggest one at the moment, is this IRS situation that is throwing me for a loop. Of course this let's get married right now thing is working me as well.

In retrospect, I do love my G/F, and I would like to marry her when things are settled, and all the kids have moved on like we originally agreed upon. But I know... deep in my heart and I know she knows as well... that I'm not ready yet. I think she realizes that she is not ready yet as well.

So when push comes to shove on this marriage thing, and as it draws closer... I think we will both realize that we need to put it on hold until we know when the timing is right, and it will in fact work.

And yes, I am fighting it, and my G/F knows it.

I'm glad to hear that your going close on your house soon. It's a major step... but when it's done... you will feel relieved that that part of it is out of the way.

For me... when I had my house retitled and refinanced in my name only... it was a major first step for me.

I knew this was the beginning of a new life for me that I never had planned on, but in fact was forced to do. I accepted what was... and moved forward from there. It's a bitter sweet realization, but it was something that had to be done in order to move forward in my new life circumstances.

As always avondale... you put things into perspective for me. It's a darn shame that everything that you posted was correct. Thank you for your input on my situation, You and everyone else on this thread are the greatest, and I thank the Lord for the wisdom that you all put forth.


Leah...

Thank you for your input on my current situation. You did a great job on pointing out what I am dealing with... relady would be proud.

As a former business owner and husband... I will try to shed some light on some of the questions you asked.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

If your wife had ever confronted you with her desire to have you home more, would you have done things differently? I know you would now knowing what you know, but how would you have responded then?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My exW never confronted me with her wanting me home more. As I reflected through my past marriage... I personally believe that she may have been cheating on me through most of my marriage. She is very materialistic... and it took me many years to realize just how off the Richter scale she was with her materialism.

In fact... I believe that family was secondary to her needs. She came first... and God help anyone who would stand in her way.

If she had come to me with her concerns back then about me not being around... I probably would of just brushed it off, as just her thinking of herself and not looking at the big picture of financial security, and seeing that the family and the business were well taken care of.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I ask because my H and I have had many discussions about his business and my feelings in regard to his huge absense in our lives. I've expressed to him that I would very sincerely love to live in a smaller home, continue to drive my old van, etc. and have him home with us,than all the possible stuff we might accumulate. The material goods mean so little to me in comparison with our marriage and our family.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Had my exW came to me with statements, such as you have posted, I would have taken a look at what could be done to lessen the impact of my absence. Unfortunately my exW never did say anything remotely close to what your expressing.

After becoming succesful with the business... I finally realized the price everyone had paid. I came to the realization, and even told my wife... that in fact it's the little things in life that count. That all that we had... meant nothing. I did what I did in order to share it with my family... for if you have everything, and no one to share it with... it doesn't mean a thing.

The ironic part about it all... is after a very long period of time... I started to see that the business was taking away from my wife and family... so I walked away from the business. My exW was furious with me... and that is when the fun from her side really kicked in.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What do you think would be my best strategy in encouraging him to invest more here at home verses his business? Do I just keep my mouth shut since he already knows how much he is missed? It seems by not saying anything, he assumes everything is okay. He manages to quickly forget all past conversations. But on some level, he must know the truth about our relationship and his absense.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You need to work a good Plan A., and while your doing it... let him know, from time to time, and in so many words, without sounding like you may be nagging him, that you would like a simpler life, and in fact it is the little things in life that count, and you really would rather have a family than all the materialistic things he can provide for you.

Don't go over board with any of it... otherwise he will probably resent what your doing, and look at it as a dstraction from what his main goal is at this point in time. But you need to communicate with him that your not happy with this arrangement without sounding like your nagging (easier said than done... but it can be done).

Remember... it's the little things in life that count. I believe you understand what that means. Now, you have to get him to realize it as well. If he doesn't realize it soon... he may soon regret that he didn't.

Do whatever you can do to make your limited time together with your "H" as enjoyable as you can. Sometimes you don't realize what you have lost... until you have lost it. Hopefully your "H" will wake up, before it's too late!

Hope everyone else is doing well.

Stay Strong!

Wallace

Leah2be

No, I have not forgotten you post or your request. Pressed for time as the last two days have been busy and I had a sick child today.

I will post more after some deep thought and reflection not only on your first questions but also the other you posed and were answered by Wallace.

In a nutshell;

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you think that in order to stay and continue to show Agape love to my H, that I might need to detach some emotionally? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I do not feel that you should attempt any emotional detachment. Once you start down that road it only ends in a dead-end. Can you establish boundaries that would husband would have to respect? Yes

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm asking because I feel to love him in a romantic, human way at all is to ask to be hurt. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In a vain attempt to let you view how I feel about this. Any time we attempt to love in a human we open ourselfes up for hurt and disappointment. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I look at my former just as I do my children. A lot of people tell me that is a foolish and shildish way to approach things but this I know. There have been time and I am sure that there will be times when each of my children will either do ar say something that hurt...eally hurts me. Bur...at no time do I ever stop loving or withdraw my love for them.

I think I may have shared a stroy about our YD. We had a talk on actions, concenquences and love. So try to picture this if you can. We took 3 bears down from her bed, in the arms of each bear we placed a barbie doll and on the heads of each bear we sat a hat. Out in front of the 3 bears sat a ruler.

Bears = Me, Former and YD
Hats = Love we have for each other
Barbie Dolls = Actions
Ruler = Boundary

In my feeble attempt to explain to her I took the doll in her bears arms and moved it out beyond the boundary to reflect her inappropriate actions when they crossed the boundary. I then explained that because her actions, not YD, but her actions caused consequences in her life. The point I was trying to get her to see was that no matter what her actions did Daddy would always love her, hence the hat (she calls it a love rag) still sitting on the bears head.

I then asked her what Daddy was upset about. She replied that I was upset at her. I asked her to again look where her actions were, where her bear was and where the love rag was. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Her eyes lit up as she realized that it was only her actions and not her that I was upset at. That it was her actions that brought discipline in her her life and not her directly and that through it all, my love for her never followed her actions but always stayed with her.

Her next remark floored me as she grabbed the doll from former's bear and sat it out acrocss the boundary line.

So what you are saying Daddy is that no matter what Mommy's actions are doing your love rag is still sitting on her head and that no matter what my actions do I still have my love rag too. So if we can learn to keep our actions from crossing the boundary we won't get in trouble. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Now, there's a bright little girl. She has not quite gotten that concept completley under control, but then neither have I so we will just learn together.

But.....as I am long winded and got carried away I need to go to sleep. Bible study at 7:00 am and it's 12:43 am. ZZzzzzzzzz.

I'll add more later.

Just know that you and your family are still being prayed for.

Wallace

Whee! Was glad to see your response to Avondale and Leah. You had me worried there but your second post enlightened me to some things. Now I know I gotta color my hair, after reading your first I think I added about another hundred or so gray one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

TRUSTINGHIM

Thanks again for another great post! I love the bear, hat, barbie, ruler analogy. What a loving dad you are! I think it's wonderful the way you take the time to REALLY communicate with your children. They are very blessed to have you in their lives.

So if I understood correctly, you feel that one should continue to love their spouse regardless of their actions, however boundaries and consequences do need to come into play. I think this is all the stuff I've been struggling with for so long. Hence, the questions about detachment.

I'm really trying to understand the difference between a love that's always there verses letting anything go. Some where along the line that whole boundary thing got messed up in my thinking. I'm still sorting it out. Maybe I need to get out the bear, barbie, hat and rulers. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You seem to have a deep love for God and others. I find that very admirable and want to be the same way myself. Yet, I obviously need to develop better boundaries and a more assertive nature. Those are my current goals.

Thanks again for taking time out of your busy schedule to write. I've attempted a few of those "late-night" posts. Some of them get pretty entertaining as I grow more tired and incoherrent. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Hope your having a good week, Trusting Him.

WALLACE,

I just breathed a tentative sigh of relief after reading your last post. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I guess the tricky part is going to be communicating all of this in a loving yet FIRM way to your girlfriend. If she isn't clear about your expectations in regard to a date, she will most likely get her feathers pretty ruffled. I'll pray for you on that. I really hope she can be understanding and supportive of your decision.

I hope too that your IRS hassles can come to an end soon. You have to be very tired of all of it.

Thanks for answering my questions in regard to my husband's business and my response to him. With God's strength I will continue to practice Plan A. This could go down in history as one of the longest plan A's around. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Six years is a long time... but it does seem right. I just also need to add the "ruler" like Trusting Him was posting about. I'm trying to find the balance of kindess,love and boundaries. I guess that's why I'm here on the TOUGH LOVE thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

AVONDALE,

Thanks for the suggestion of writing on the EN's
board. There is a lady who is writing me there that has been very helpful. You're still very much in my thoughts and prayers this week. I'm anxious to hear from you. I hope your doing well.

TO ALL ON THE THREAD,

Thank you to each of you who continue to contribute to my growth and understanding. It seems to be a clear consensus that detachment isn't the answer. I appreciate the various suggestions you have given. I hope all of you are having a good week. God bless!