OK, two months before i got the not in love speech, and before i confronted her on the OM, X was complaining about her 3 year old Grand Voyager with all the luxuries of the Town & Country (but not a town and country!) She says the car is a piece of crap.<p>I respond, "OK, lets go look at Suburbans!"
X responds in a condescending manner, "No, you just want a Suburban to keep up with your rich friends in the XYZ neighborhood."
I respond, "No, i really like the Suburbans." (which i do and have looked at with her before!)<p>Tonight, 9 yo d tells me that X is going to get an Expedition. . . . .<p>So i need help, which car is the rich person's car, and which car is the working person's car?<p>i am confused!! [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

I don&#8217;t think either one of them qualify as a status symbols within their class of vehicles. The Cadillac Escalade or Lincoln Navigator are better fits for status seekers.

Welp, I've been told the Suburban has been labeled as the "Texas Cadillac", I think they're more functional than a status symbol. And the Expedition is what I consider the PAC NW preferred SUV, also not a status symbol. <p>I'd say probably the Lexus and Mercedes SUVs are more of a status symbol, that, and a Hummer.<p>It's funny you bring this up, my friend and I were talking the other day about the Ford SUVs, and because they've been naming all of them beginning with an "E", we said what SUV name could be next .. Lemme see:<p>Explorer
Expedition
Excursion
Escapade ......<p>Exploitation ?????? lol<p>[ November 15, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

I guess it also depends on which area of the country you live..and your standard of living..
and if you think a vehicle can "give" you status..<p>I know that to some a Toyota Sequoia is considered a rich persons SUV. They view them as they do the Ford Expedition only less expensive..but they carry the same "status" with their friends and neighbors in which they are trying to impress..<p>I personally don't see why anyone wants to pay $50k for a vehicle. I'd rather have something that is functional,dependable and affordable..and put the rest of my money elsewhere..like buying property..<p>I mean are you going to live in it or drive it??

Well, my first point was, Why is a wife accusing a husband of being rich [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>second, why is it if the two SUVs are similar, i get accused of wanted to keep up with my neighbors, but when X gets 1/2 of our money, she wants to apply for financial aid for our kid on a $6,000 tuition, and then wants to buy an Expedition when her fully paid for grand voyager is still operational, and had some age related repairs??<p>oh, and i bought a dealer demo 10,000 miles on it, VW jetta, and will keep it 10 years or until i can't drive it any more. all my cars go either 10 years or 150,000 miles before getting a funeral.<p>am i the one that has gone crazy?<p>Really, is it me???<p>If it is, i swear I will start counseling immediately... .<p>[ November 16, 2001: Message edited by: WhenIfindthetime ]</p>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:
[QB]Well, my first point was, Why is a wife accusing a husband of being rich [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>second, why is it if the two SUVs are similar, i get accused of wanted to keep up with my neighbors, but when X gets 1/2 of our money, she wants to apply for financial aid for our kid on a $6,000 tuition, and then wants to buy an Expedition when her fully paid for grand voyager is still operational, and had some age related repairs??<p>oh, and i bought a dealer demo 10,000 miles on it, VW jetta, and will keep it 10 years or until i can't drive it any more. all my cars go either 10 years or 150,000 miles before getting a funeral.<p>am i the one that has gone crazy?<p>Really, is it me???<p>If it is, i swear I will start counseling immediately... .<p>Wiftty,<p>I am confused about why you are concerned. I don't really understand why you would be concerned about something she said way in the past. Does it matter anymore what kind of vehicle she drives or how she spends her money now? You guys are not together any more and from all the post, it sounds like you don't want her back. Why the anger at what she is doing now?<p>If she can get your daughter free tuition and she meets the guidelines set forth, then I don't understand what is so bad about this either. <p>Take care,<p>ANNA

(((((((Tom)))))))<p>I know where you are, dude. The question is, how long are you going to stay stuck there? Anna is right. In order to move forward you have to disengage and stop caring. It will make your life a lot simpler.<p>Great news!!! 12yo D just moved in with me (two weeks now) Remember the one that I lost the custody and only had weekends with?!!! The one that broke my heart to see her go to her abusive dad!!! Well, she got savvy enough to see and get tired of it and NOW Hallelujah(sp) she's home!!!<p>Anne

WIFTTy - <p>Yeah, those other folks we can't get rid of do say some dumb things. Before and after they tear up our lives. And sometimes the behaviors don't change after they leave.<p>What difference does it make what your x drives? <p>(That said, I will confess to being totally irked with mine when I had to borrow money to pay his debts so he would give me a quitclaim deed to the house. Then he went out and bought a late model used Volvo sedan.)<p>It's not been that long since your divorce was final and I think you may have a lot more "letting go" to do - not of the being in love or the wanting to restore everything but in terms of letting go of your concern over what she does with her personal life.

OK, good points, after thinking about the responses, here is where the questions came from:<p>1) I changed careers to be home to have a family, which X was very pleased at. I spend most of our money getting educated, and started a family, and X even told me that I was the one on whom we relied to be the family breadwinner. I took that very seriously, and in 10 years, we got there, and then I was accused of being rich, of wanting to live in our own house, of making X feel bad with my successes. And to top it off, i asked her what i did at my job, and she said she didn't know (after almost 10 years of doing it, and doing it with her once for her volunteer job!) ok, ok, the fog was so thick that her internal radar was not working!<p>2) i guess i really wish i knew why she decided that this course of action is the best, but she refuses to answer the question, nor is she very willing to share the kids with me.<p>basically, i am still emotionally attached through the kids because i have to accept what i don't understand, or refuse to understand, or can't believe happened to me.<p>3) This week, X and I and our oldest son interviewed for admissions to the school where i went, where I lived for almost 20 years and X has taught at for 20 years. Seeing all the "old teachers that i coached with and lived with, etc." that i used to have was weird. very weird, alot of them did not want to talk to me, but were very nice to our son.<p>4) It also pisses me off that the values passed to our kids is totally inconsistent, totally scrambled, and totally incomprehensible. And the values we espoused together to the kids are then sabotaged by her actions. <p>5) because i see her personality more and more in our kids, and i hate the "new" personality that they are slowly adopting. We were talking about religion, and earth and the universe last night at dinner, and I mentioned that while i was at this school, as a student, i met with a world class astronomer, Carl Sagan, in a physics field trip, and asked him some questions which i discussed.<p>then the kids started in on me, and they have done this before, "why do i say i know all these people? why do you say that you know famous, important people?" (in other words, there was no respect for the knowledge, the status of this person i met, but mostly distain toaards me because i know alot of people who have done alot of different stuff and have been very successful.)<p>so i constantly "feel" as though i am still being criticized through the kids for being adventurous, knowledgable, for having met or known lots of different people, for being successful at several different areas in my life.<p>so i constantly feel everything i stood for, hard working, knoweldge seeking, adventurous, interested in lots of different stuff, good at athletics and coaching, and knowing how to plan and follow a plan, is just being trashed totally, and that i feel my relationship with my kids just went down hill completely after easter weekend last year, and has been very antagonistic ever since.<p>and i don't understand why or what i did so that my kids constantly attack me all the time.<p>so hopefully that is why. . . .

congratulations Anne, <p>i knew you sounded a lot more grounded than your situation was sounding, although i think if you do divorce, that you review your selection criteria for husbands, because you are great with everything, except that aspect of your life.<p>tom

Tom,<p>I am sorry about all the pain and hurt you are going through. I think you really should consider individual counseling and stick with it for awhile. <p>Also, regarding your children, it sounds like they are just being typical children. Also, it sounds like you are losing their respect a bit and your relationship is really starting to suffer. I think you may need to sit down with them and listen to what they are telling you. Perhaps there needs regarding a father are different from what you consider them to be.<p>Take care and good luck,<p>ANNA

Tom,<p>One more important suggestion. On top of the individual counseling, I think it is crucial you get family counseling for you and your children.<p>Take care,<p>ANNA

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:
<strong>
i think if you do divorce, that you review your selection criteria for husbands, because you are great with everything, except that aspect of your life.<p>tom</strong><hr></blockquote><p> [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I'm still waiting for your phone number. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Anne

IMO, let her by the FORD (Fixed Or Repaired Daily). She will begin to hate it very quickly as I am sure there will always be something wrong with it. I speak from experience. If she thought her Grand Voyager was bad, wait until she gets into the FORD.<p>As my friend always told me and has on his license plate frame:<p>I WOULD RATHER PUSH MY CHEVY THAN DRIVE A FORD!<p>Take care of yourself Tom.<p>Michele

Tom,
I believe the advice you got is right on. What she you heard from X in the past is irrelevant to her actions today. This is her life and choices...about cars,houses etc. I know it is insane stuff...(still living it myself) but if you view it as no longer being your problem or concern,then you can stand back with more objectivity and view somewhat that you are better off out of the looney bin where nothing makes sense any more.<p>As far as the kids....this is the hard part...where your values are bismirched,your life style trashed, your knowledge and career choice made light and ridiculed. There really is nothing you can do but continue to live your life with the values,morals and choices that make sense for you.<p>By letting the kids know your way is right, they take this to be criticism of their mother....even if you relate it to you and your life only!<p>Eventually the kids will make choices....and live with their own chosen beliefs....and the hardest part is seeing them take on so much of the insane way of behaviour from the other parent.<p>Get your kids into counselling ASAP...they need an impartial adult to talk to. Alienation will be a factor due to polarity of values etc now.<p>2 of mine have been manipulated to behave H's way...a life protected by lies,manipulation, dishonesty, put downs of anyone who takes a stand against a value, values based on trash and immorality.I cannot live like this,not with children who are abusive in their behaviour to me,with no boundaries and expectations for financial and other support.I have had to cut them (18 and 21 years) off....until such time as they mature and undersatnd hat certain behaviour is totally unacceptable. <p>By the way I am the samepersonality type as ytour X, and believe that there is no simalarity in how we behave.
You have used this to justify your different parenting styles, values, beliefs. I disagree with all this. It is the baggage from your childhood which can dictate how one looks at the world...but you can either accept the view of how to do things or do them very differently because you did not like hearing and seeing some manner of being when you were setting your own values etc and acted accordingly.<p>It is when you hold onto your parents values as scripture, without evaluating what works for you as an adult thay makes the difference.<p>I believe your X and my H are so far4 gone in that they do not know what they want at all, and use the kids to justify that their way is right to in fact make insane choices correct in their own eyes.
I am rambling...sorry....have a good wqeekend

Tom, <p>Don't think Suburbans or Expeditions are "rich" people cars, have to go to Lincoln Navigator and Cadillac Escalade for that. On the technical aspect of the two vehicles, Suburbans have been around a lot longer and are good all around SUVs, the Expeditions are set on a smaller frame and the extra length in the back tends to make them a little squirrelier in the rear as far as handling. Neither fit into garages easily, either [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Have had an Explorer for years and went to a Tahoe for my family/work vehicle. Wish one could pick and choose features between the two makes and build the "ultimate" car, [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Personally, there are times I really need a TRUCK!<p>Now, on to the nitty-gritty of your message... LET IT GO! I'm learning about control and boundaries... by you getting upset at your exes behaviors, you are giving her control. Easier said than done, I know, I'm right there with you. <p>Lori

ok, I know I am fixin' (that's a southern word for getting ready to) to get in hot water with some Ford fans. But before you flog me, I drove a Taurus for 4 years and an Explorer for 6. I drive a Dodge, H drove GMC, and I only pull for Chevy drivers in Nascar.... Who's confused now?<p>TO ME.... Suburban says Class.... Expedition says WannaBe.....<p>I do agree however that the Toyota Sequoina (sp?) that someelse mentioned is probably the classiest SUV I've seen and I live in the town where the BMW X-5 is made.....<p>Have a great weekend..... PP<p>PS. BTW I currently drive a Dodge Grand Caravan and it is by no means loaded. I wouldn't complain with a "nearly" Town & Country addtion for sure.

WIFTTy, <p>Well, my first point was, Why is a wife accusing a husband of being rich [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] <p>TR- This seems to be her problem..not yours..and something she needs to deal with..<p>WIFTTy-second, why is it if the two SUVs are similar, i get accused of wanted to keep up with my neighbors.<p>TR- Again her problem..not yours..<p>WIFTTy-but when X gets 1/2 of our money, she wants to apply for financial aid for our kid on a $6,000 tuition, <p>TR- The point is..if she qualifies for the assistance..then whats wrong accepting it??<p>WIFTTy-and then wants to buy an Expedition when her fully paid for grand voyager is still operational, and had some age related repairs??<p>TR- It's her money...your divorced..and your realizing that you have no "control" over how she spends it..and it sounds like this really bothers you that you have no control over her life anymore..<p>WIFTTy- oh, and i bought a dealer demo 10,000 miles on it, VW jetta, and will keep it 10 years or until i can't drive it any more. all my cars go either 10 years or 150,000 miles before getting a funeral.<p>TR- This sounds like your trying to make yourself sound better than her..and everyone else because you drive a car till it's on it's last leg..
(Like HEY LOOK AT ME!!! I am so wonderful because I do without the newer and better)<p>
Wiffty-am i the one that has gone crazy?<p>TR- Not crazy..just your values are placed on different things than your ex's<p>Wiffty-Really, is it me???<p>TR- well..personally, I can see from some of what your saying..that yes, you may have some control problems..<p>WIFFTy-then the kids started in on me, and they have done this before,"why do i say i know all these people? why do you say that you know famous, important people?" (in other words, there was no respect for the knowledge, the status of this person i met, but mostly distain toaards me because i know alot of people who have done alot of different stuff and have been very successful.)<p>TR- It sounds to me like you are trying to "impress" them because you have met these "famous people" and they really aren't impressed- your knowing these people doesn't impress them the way
you think it should..and it sounds to me like you are bragging.."I know Carl Sagan" big deal..he's just a person..yes, he is famous and yes he's done important things..but ultimately,..he's still just a person..who has problems just like everyone else..your knowing him or even having met him doesn't make you anymore or any less important in the eyes of your kids..and this bothers you for some reason..that they aren't impressed w/ who you've met in your life time..<p>To me it sounds like you think your better than everyone else because you've met these Famous ppl..and it sounds as if your kids see this same thing..<p>WIFTTy-If it is, i swear I will start counseling immediately...<p>TR- well..it's a place to start..on figuring out why you feel that these things should impress everyone else..and why you feel a need to try and impress everyone else with the "Well, I've met so and so, doesn't it make me so special"<p>yes, it's nice that you've met these ppl and they made an impact on your life by having met them..but it doesn't make you any better than anyone else because you've met them..and just from reading some of what you've written it sounds like you feel that you should be honored and respected for just having been in the same room as them..like you should be given some type of an award or something..

WhenIfindthetime:<p>WIFTTy-I changed careers to be home to have a family, which X was very pleased at. I spend most of our money getting educated, and started a family, and X even told me that I was the one on whom we relied to be the family breadwinner. I took that very seriously, and in 10 years, we got there, and then I was accused of being rich, of wanting to live in our own house, of making X feel bad with my successes. <p>TR- You wanted appreciation for all you have accomplished in your life..and there is nothing wrong w/ that in and of itself..but, do you think that maybe you implied what you did was "more" important than what she did??<p>WIFTTy- And to top it off, i asked her what i did at my job, and she said she didn't know (after almost 10 years of doing it, and doing it with her once for her volunteer job!) ok, ok, the fog was so thick that her internal radar was not working!<p>TR- Again it sounds like you wanted the "appreciation" and admiration for what you do as a career..and not who you are as a person..to me it sounds like you find your identity in "what" you do for a living..and not "who" you are as a person..<p>WIFTTy- i guess i really wish i knew why she decided that this course of action is the best, but she refuses to answer the question, nor is she very willing to share the kids with me.<p>TR- She probably thinks that because you "presume" to be so smart about everything that you can figure it out for yourself..<p>WIFTTy-basically, i am still emotionally attached through the kids because i have to accept what i don't understand, or refuse to understand, or can't believe happened to me.<p>TR- It sounds like you might be refusing to understand on one level because it's hard to accept that others don't have the same belief system you do..<p>WIFTTy- This week, X and I and our oldest son interviewed for admissions to the school where i went, where I lived for almost 20 years and X has taught at for 20 years. Seeing all the "old teachers that i coached with and lived with, etc." that i used to have was weird. very weird, alot of them did not want to talk to me, but were very nice to our son.<p>TR- The interview was with your son..not you..he's a seperate individual than you are..and the one who would now being going to the school..He has to get there on his own merits..not yours..and so the interview wasn't about "YOU" it was about 'HIM' why do you have a problem with someone else getting the attention???<p>WIFTTy- It also pisses me off that the values passed to our kids is totally inconsistent, totally scrambled, and totally incomprehensible. And the values we espoused together to the kids are then sabotaged by her actions. <p>TR- Are you sure she even shared the same values you do? or did you assume she shared the same values because maybe just maybe she was afraid to go against anything you said..because what you think is more important than what anyone else thinks?? You espoused together or you assumed she should have the same values because YOU were the man of the family??<p>WIFTTy- because i see her personality more and more in our kids, and i hate the "new" personality that they are slowly adopting. <p>TR- Why do you "hate" it so much?? is it maybe because it is "different" than your own??? And so therefore it is unacceptable to you??<p>
WIFTTy-so i constantly "feel" as though i am still being criticized through the kids for being adventurous, knowledgable, for having met or known lots of different people, for being successful at several different areas in my life.<p>TR- It doesn't sound as if they are critizing you for who you met..but in how you brag about who you've met..like I said previously..<p>WIFTTy-so i constantly feel everything i stood for, hard working, knoweldge seeking, adventurous, interested in lots of different stuff, good at athletics and coaching, and knowing how to plan and follow a plan, is just being trashed totally, and that i feel my relationship with my kids just went down hill completely after easter weekend last year, and has been very antagonistic ever since.<p>TR- All of those are wonderful traits..but it sounds like you think you should be constantly praised because of these things..when they probably view this as..thats what a dad is supposed to do..like maybe your trying to prove your important because of them..when in reality your important anyway..and not because of all of these things..<p>WIFTTy-and i don't understand why or what i did so that my kids constantly attack me all the time.<p>TR- Maybe making them feel they aren't as important as you are because they haven't "done" all the things you have..and maybe they are tired of trying to meet your standards of success..and feeling like they will "never measure up"--<p>I honestly don't think it's you personally they are attacking..but the way you tell them what should be important to them..like they can't have a thought or opinion of their own..that is different than yours..sounds like they are rejecting the "control" that you seem to want over their lives..<p>I don't mean to sound so harsh..but to me it sounds like you think that everyone should always agree with you or they are wrong..and that is a controlling personality..when you should respect their views and opinions just as you want yours respected..that doesn't mean they have to agree with you..just accept that you feel that way..and it's okay...just like it's okay for them to feel the way they do...

well, i lost the first posting, so will try again.<p>1) and the answer is: i don't like being citicized for making a loving suggestion for her (it was her car) and then she goes and about does the same suggestion. Now i didn't suggest it for me, because i don't want one of those cars to commute in, which was my point. I'm not better just different, but i don't criticize others for making suggestions and then do it because its now my suggestion!<p>2) i don't like being complained about for an expert's opinion, just because it disagrees with their point. is the kids' behavior not the "shoot the messenger" behavior that most people dislike? is that the behavior you think i should support?<p>so shoot the dad because he personally asked? never mind that it was an expert? since we can't tear down experts, we tear down messengers?<p>3) X does not support counseling, and the kids pick up on it, and complain to me "making them go." X said in the beginning, at the time of separation, that the kids won't need counseling, just like she would only need 3 sessions for her.<p>and when we did go, the counselor supported the kids position that they are happiest when they get to do anything they want.<p>4) i guess i have a control problem, since i have rules in this house about inappropriate behavior,
LB's i think they call them, criticism, angry outbursts, disrespectful judgements. . . .etc.
I must review how i implement and respond to the inappropriate behavior so that i am not inconsistent. (point learned!)<p>they complained about my rules, they said i had too many and they don't like them. (in the other house, there are very few rules.)<p>so i refuse to turn over my house to the kids' rules. sorry, that i have a control problem. I will post the house rules after i get them written up for them. Then post them here for review.<p>5) yes, the parents are interviewed. We were interviewed after the kid. and i said it was weird, just weird. I realize i didn't get the X's peers in the settlement, it was just weird, and hard, after loving and supporting the place without working for it.<p>6) in the application, one of the questions is: what are your jobs and responsibilities? the only ones listed were at my house and required and suggested by me. funny, that is what the school is looking for, kids who have structure and responsibility so they can make a smooth transition to the school.<p>so yes, i will head to counseling, and will try to find a very good local counselor, and start with the kids as a new year's resolution. . . . if for no other reason than to get them to have a decent relationship with me. . . .<p>and you know, yes, i want to turn out responsible, mentally healthy kids, and if that is a control issue, then i guess i have a control issue, in that i am trying to make them responsible for themselves at my house, and they get it, and do it, and just complain about it constantly, which i find very disturbing, instead of respecting me, and trying to abide, they go the complaining route, which gets them more difficulty. and then they complain about it to X and X suggests that they stay with her. . . (i guess that is conflict avoidance support?? or is it disrespect for authority??)<p>Yes, i need a change of something, maybe my 8 months of paid vacation is getting to me.<p>counseling ho!<p>tom