Suburban vs Expedition - Which one is the RICH person's car?

Marriage Builders

OK, two months before i got the not in love speech, and before i confronted her on the OM, X was complaining about her 3 year old Grand Voyager with all the luxuries of the Town & Country (but not a town and country!) She says the car is a piece of crap.I respond, "OK, lets go look at Suburbans!"
X responds in a condescending manner, "No, you just want a Suburban to keep up with your rich friends in the XYZ neighborhood."
I respond, "No, i really like the Suburbans." (which i do and have looked at with her before!)Tonight, 9 yo d tells me that X is going to get an Expedition. . . . .So i need help, which car is the rich person's car, and which car is the working person's car?i am confused!! [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

I don’t think either one of them qualify as a status symbols within their class of vehicles. The Cadillac Escalade or Lincoln Navigator are better fits for status seekers.

Welp, I've been told the Suburban has been labeled as the "Texas Cadillac", I think they're more functional than a status symbol. And the Expedition is what I consider the PAC NW preferred SUV, also not a status symbol. I'd say probably the Lexus and Mercedes SUVs are more of a status symbol, that, and a Hummer.It's funny you bring this up, my friend and I were talking the other day about the Ford SUVs, and because they've been naming all of them beginning with an "E", we said what SUV name could be next .. Lemme see:Explorer
Expedition
Excursion
Escapade ......Exploitation ?????? lol[ November 15, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]

I guess it also depends on which area of the country you live..and your standard of living..
and if you think a vehicle can "give" you status..I know that to some a Toyota Sequoia is considered a rich persons SUV. They view them as they do the Ford Expedition only less expensive..but they carry the same "status" with their friends and neighbors in which they are trying to impress..I personally don't see why anyone wants to pay $50k for a vehicle. I'd rather have something that is functional,dependable and affordable..and put the rest of my money elsewhere..like buying property..I mean are you going to live in it or drive it??

Well, my first point was, Why is a wife accusing a husband of being rich [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] second, why is it if the two SUVs are similar, i get accused of wanted to keep up with my neighbors, but when X gets 1/2 of our money, she wants to apply for financial aid for our kid on a $6,000 tuition, and then wants to buy an Expedition when her fully paid for grand voyager is still operational, and had some age related repairs??oh, and i bought a dealer demo 10,000 miles on it, VW jetta, and will keep it 10 years or until i can't drive it any more. all my cars go either 10 years or 150,000 miles before getting a funeral.am i the one that has gone crazy?Really, is it me???If it is, i swear I will start counseling immediately... .[ November 16, 2001: Message edited by: WhenIfindthetime ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:
[QB]Well, my first point was, Why is a wife accusing a husband of being rich [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] second, why is it if the two SUVs are similar, i get accused of wanted to keep up with my neighbors, but when X gets 1/2 of our money, she wants to apply for financial aid for our kid on a $6,000 tuition, and then wants to buy an Expedition when her fully paid for grand voyager is still operational, and had some age related repairs??oh, and i bought a dealer demo 10,000 miles on it, VW jetta, and will keep it 10 years or until i can't drive it any more. all my cars go either 10 years or 150,000 miles before getting a funeral.am i the one that has gone crazy?Really, is it me???If it is, i swear I will start counseling immediately... .Wiftty,I am confused about why you are concerned. I don't really understand why you would be concerned about something she said way in the past. Does it matter anymore what kind of vehicle she drives or how she spends her money now? You guys are not together any more and from all the post, it sounds like you don't want her back. Why the anger at what she is doing now?If she can get your daughter free tuition and she meets the guidelines set forth, then I don't understand what is so bad about this either. Take care,ANNA

(((((((Tom)))))))I know where you are, dude. The question is, how long are you going to stay stuck there? Anna is right. In order to move forward you have to disengage and stop caring. It will make your life a lot simpler.Great news!!! 12yo D just moved in with me (two weeks now) Remember the one that I lost the custody and only had weekends with?!!! The one that broke my heart to see her go to her abusive dad!!! Well, she got savvy enough to see and get tired of it and NOW Hallelujah(sp) she's home!!!Anne

WIFTTy - Yeah, those other folks we can't get rid of do say some dumb things. Before and after they tear up our lives. And sometimes the behaviors don't change after they leave.What difference does it make what your x drives? (That said, I will confess to being totally irked with mine when I had to borrow money to pay his debts so he would give me a quitclaim deed to the house. Then he went out and bought a late model used Volvo sedan.)It's not been that long since your divorce was final and I think you may have a lot more "letting go" to do - not of the being in love or the wanting to restore everything but in terms of letting go of your concern over what she does with her personal life.

OK, good points, after thinking about the responses, here is where the questions came from:1) I changed careers to be home to have a family, which X was very pleased at. I spend most of our money getting educated, and started a family, and X even told me that I was the one on whom we relied to be the family breadwinner. I took that very seriously, and in 10 years, we got there, and then I was accused of being rich, of wanting to live in our own house, of making X feel bad with my successes. And to top it off, i asked her what i did at my job, and she said she didn't know (after almost 10 years of doing it, and doing it with her once for her volunteer job!) ok, ok, the fog was so thick that her internal radar was not working!2) i guess i really wish i knew why she decided that this course of action is the best, but she refuses to answer the question, nor is she very willing to share the kids with me.basically, i am still emotionally attached through the kids because i have to accept what i don't understand, or refuse to understand, or can't believe happened to me.3) This week, X and I and our oldest son interviewed for admissions to the school where i went, where I lived for almost 20 years and X has taught at for 20 years. Seeing all the "old teachers that i coached with and lived with, etc." that i used to have was weird. very weird, alot of them did not want to talk to me, but were very nice to our son.4) It also pisses me off that the values passed to our kids is totally inconsistent, totally scrambled, and totally incomprehensible. And the values we espoused together to the kids are then sabotaged by her actions. 5) because i see her personality more and more in our kids, and i hate the "new" personality that they are slowly adopting. We were talking about religion, and earth and the universe last night at dinner, and I mentioned that while i was at this school, as a student, i met with a world class astronomer, Carl Sagan, in a physics field trip, and asked him some questions which i discussed.then the kids started in on me, and they have done this before, "why do i say i know all these people? why do you say that you know famous, important people?" (in other words, there was no respect for the knowledge, the status of this person i met, but mostly distain toaards me because i know alot of people who have done alot of different stuff and have been very successful.)so i constantly "feel" as though i am still being criticized through the kids for being adventurous, knowledgable, for having met or known lots of different people, for being successful at several different areas in my life.so i constantly feel everything i stood for, hard working, knoweldge seeking, adventurous, interested in lots of different stuff, good at athletics and coaching, and knowing how to plan and follow a plan, is just being trashed totally, and that i feel my relationship with my kids just went down hill completely after easter weekend last year, and has been very antagonistic ever since.and i don't understand why or what i did so that my kids constantly attack me all the time.so hopefully that is why. . . .

congratulations Anne, i knew you sounded a lot more grounded than your situation was sounding, although i think if you do divorce, that you review your selection criteria for husbands, because you are great with everything, except that aspect of your life.tom

Tom,I am sorry about all the pain and hurt you are going through. I think you really should consider individual counseling and stick with it for awhile. Also, regarding your children, it sounds like they are just being typical children. Also, it sounds like you are losing their respect a bit and your relationship is really starting to suffer. I think you may need to sit down with them and listen to what they are telling you. Perhaps there needs regarding a father are different from what you consider them to be.Take care and good luck,ANNA

Tom,One more important suggestion. On top of the individual counseling, I think it is crucial you get family counseling for you and your children.Take care,ANNA

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:

i think if you do divorce, that you review your selection criteria for husbands, because you are great with everything, except that aspect of your life.tom<hr></blockquote> [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] I'm still waiting for your phone number. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] Anne

IMO, let her by the FORD (Fixed Or Repaired Daily). She will begin to hate it very quickly as I am sure there will always be something wrong with it. I speak from experience. If she thought her Grand Voyager was bad, wait until she gets into the FORD.As my friend always told me and has on his license plate frame:I WOULD RATHER PUSH MY CHEVY THAN DRIVE A FORD!Take care of yourself Tom.Michele

Tom,
I believe the advice you got is right on. What she you heard from X in the past is irrelevant to her actions today. This is her life and choices...about cars,houses etc. I know it is insane stuff...(still living it myself) but if you view it as no longer being your problem or concern,then you can stand back with more objectivity and view somewhat that you are better off out of the looney bin where nothing makes sense any more.As far as the kids....this is the hard part...where your values are bismirched,your life style trashed, your knowledge and career choice made light and ridiculed. There really is nothing you can do but continue to live your life with the values,morals and choices that make sense for you.By letting the kids know your way is right, they take this to be criticism of their mother....even if you relate it to you and your life only!Eventually the kids will make choices....and live with their own chosen beliefs....and the hardest part is seeing them take on so much of the insane way of behaviour from the other parent.Get your kids into counselling ASAP...they need an impartial adult to talk to. Alienation will be a factor due to polarity of values etc now.2 of mine have been manipulated to behave H's way...a life protected by lies,manipulation, dishonesty, put downs of anyone who takes a stand against a value, values based on trash and immorality.I cannot live like this,not with children who are abusive in their behaviour to me,with no boundaries and expectations for financial and other support.I have had to cut them (18 and 21 years) off....until such time as they mature and undersatnd hat certain behaviour is totally unacceptable. By the way I am the samepersonality type as ytour X, and believe that there is no simalarity in how we behave.
You have used this to justify your different parenting styles, values, beliefs. I disagree with all this. It is the baggage from your childhood which can dictate how one looks at the world...but you can either accept the view of how to do things or do them very differently because you did not like hearing and seeing some manner of being when you were setting your own values etc and acted accordingly.It is when you hold onto your parents values as scripture, without evaluating what works for you as an adult thay makes the difference.I believe your X and my H are so far4 gone in that they do not know what they want at all, and use the kids to justify that their way is right to in fact make insane choices correct in their own eyes.
I am rambling...sorry....have a good wqeekend

Tom, Don't think Suburbans or Expeditions are "rich" people cars, have to go to Lincoln Navigator and Cadillac Escalade for that. On the technical aspect of the two vehicles, Suburbans have been around a lot longer and are good all around SUVs, the Expeditions are set on a smaller frame and the extra length in the back tends to make them a little squirrelier in the rear as far as handling. Neither fit into garages easily, either [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Have had an Explorer for years and went to a Tahoe for my family/work vehicle. Wish one could pick and choose features between the two makes and build the "ultimate" car, [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Personally, there are times I really need a TRUCK!Now, on to the nitty-gritty of your message... LET IT GO! I'm learning about control and boundaries... by you getting upset at your exes behaviors, you are giving her control. Easier said than done, I know, I'm right there with you. Lori

ok, I know I am fixin' (that's a southern word for getting ready to) to get in hot water with some Ford fans. But before you flog me, I drove a Taurus for 4 years and an Explorer for 6. I drive a Dodge, H drove GMC, and I only pull for Chevy drivers in Nascar.... Who's confused now?TO ME.... Suburban says Class.... Expedition says WannaBe.....I do agree however that the Toyota Sequoina (sp?) that someelse mentioned is probably the classiest SUV I've seen and I live in the town where the BMW X-5 is made.....Have a great weekend..... PPPS. BTW I currently drive a Dodge Grand Caravan and it is by no means loaded. I wouldn't complain with a "nearly" Town & Country addtion for sure.

WIFTTy, Well, my first point was, Why is a wife accusing a husband of being rich [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] TR- This seems to be her problem..not yours..and something she needs to deal with..WIFTTy-second, why is it if the two SUVs are similar, i get accused of wanted to keep up with my neighbors.TR- Again her problem..not yours..WIFTTy-but when X gets 1/2 of our money, she wants to apply for financial aid for our kid on a $6,000 tuition, TR- The point is..if she qualifies for the assistance..then whats wrong accepting it??WIFTTy-and then wants to buy an Expedition when her fully paid for grand voyager is still operational, and had some age related repairs??TR- It's her money...your divorced..and your realizing that you have no "control" over how she spends it..and it sounds like this really bothers you that you have no control over her life anymore..WIFTTy- oh, and i bought a dealer demo 10,000 miles on it, VW jetta, and will keep it 10 years or until i can't drive it any more. all my cars go either 10 years or 150,000 miles before getting a funeral.TR- This sounds like your trying to make yourself sound better than her..and everyone else because you drive a car till it's on it's last leg..
(Like HEY LOOK AT ME!!! I am so wonderful because I do without the newer and better)
Wiffty-am i the one that has gone crazy?TR- Not crazy..just your values are placed on different things than your ex'sWiffty-Really, is it me???TR- well..personally, I can see from some of what your saying..that yes, you may have some control problems..WIFFTy-then the kids started in on me, and they have done this before,"why do i say i know all these people? why do you say that you know famous, important people?" (in other words, there was no respect for the knowledge, the status of this person i met, but mostly distain toaards me because i know alot of people who have done alot of different stuff and have been very successful.)TR- It sounds to me like you are trying to "impress" them because you have met these "famous people" and they really aren't impressed- your knowing these people doesn't impress them the way
you think it should..and it sounds to me like you are bragging.."I know Carl Sagan" big deal..he's just a person..yes, he is famous and yes he's done important things..but ultimately,..he's still just a person..who has problems just like everyone else..your knowing him or even having met him doesn't make you anymore or any less important in the eyes of your kids..and this bothers you for some reason..that they aren't impressed w/ who you've met in your life time..To me it sounds like you think your better than everyone else because you've met these Famous ppl..and it sounds as if your kids see this same thing..WIFTTy-If it is, i swear I will start counseling immediately...TR- well..it's a place to start..on figuring out why you feel that these things should impress everyone else..and why you feel a need to try and impress everyone else with the "Well, I've met so and so, doesn't it make me so special"yes, it's nice that you've met these ppl and they made an impact on your life by having met them..but it doesn't make you any better than anyone else because you've met them..and just from reading some of what you've written it sounds like you feel that you should be honored and respected for just having been in the same room as them..like you should be given some type of an award or something..

WhenIfindthetime:WIFTTy-I changed careers to be home to have a family, which X was very pleased at. I spend most of our money getting educated, and started a family, and X even told me that I was the one on whom we relied to be the family breadwinner. I took that very seriously, and in 10 years, we got there, and then I was accused of being rich, of wanting to live in our own house, of making X feel bad with my successes. TR- You wanted appreciation for all you have accomplished in your life..and there is nothing wrong w/ that in and of itself..but, do you think that maybe you implied what you did was "more" important than what she did??WIFTTy- And to top it off, i asked her what i did at my job, and she said she didn't know (after almost 10 years of doing it, and doing it with her once for her volunteer job!) ok, ok, the fog was so thick that her internal radar was not working!TR- Again it sounds like you wanted the "appreciation" and admiration for what you do as a career..and not who you are as a person..to me it sounds like you find your identity in "what" you do for a living..and not "who" you are as a person..WIFTTy- i guess i really wish i knew why she decided that this course of action is the best, but she refuses to answer the question, nor is she very willing to share the kids with me.TR- She probably thinks that because you "presume" to be so smart about everything that you can figure it out for yourself..WIFTTy-basically, i am still emotionally attached through the kids because i have to accept what i don't understand, or refuse to understand, or can't believe happened to me.TR- It sounds like you might be refusing to understand on one level because it's hard to accept that others don't have the same belief system you do..WIFTTy- This week, X and I and our oldest son interviewed for admissions to the school where i went, where I lived for almost 20 years and X has taught at for 20 years. Seeing all the "old teachers that i coached with and lived with, etc." that i used to have was weird. very weird, alot of them did not want to talk to me, but were very nice to our son.TR- The interview was with your son..not you..he's a seperate individual than you are..and the one who would now being going to the school..He has to get there on his own merits..not yours..and so the interview wasn't about "YOU" it was about 'HIM' why do you have a problem with someone else getting the attention???WIFTTy- It also pisses me off that the values passed to our kids is totally inconsistent, totally scrambled, and totally incomprehensible. And the values we espoused together to the kids are then sabotaged by her actions. TR- Are you sure she even shared the same values you do? or did you assume she shared the same values because maybe just maybe she was afraid to go against anything you said..because what you think is more important than what anyone else thinks?? You espoused together or you assumed she should have the same values because YOU were the man of the family??WIFTTy- because i see her personality more and more in our kids, and i hate the "new" personality that they are slowly adopting. TR- Why do you "hate" it so much?? is it maybe because it is "different" than your own??? And so therefore it is unacceptable to you??
WIFTTy-so i constantly "feel" as though i am still being criticized through the kids for being adventurous, knowledgable, for having met or known lots of different people, for being successful at several different areas in my life.TR- It doesn't sound as if they are critizing you for who you met..but in how you brag about who you've met..like I said previously..WIFTTy-so i constantly feel everything i stood for, hard working, knoweldge seeking, adventurous, interested in lots of different stuff, good at athletics and coaching, and knowing how to plan and follow a plan, is just being trashed totally, and that i feel my relationship with my kids just went down hill completely after easter weekend last year, and has been very antagonistic ever since.TR- All of those are wonderful traits..but it sounds like you think you should be constantly praised because of these things..when they probably view this as..thats what a dad is supposed to do..like maybe your trying to prove your important because of them..when in reality your important anyway..and not because of all of these things..WIFTTy-and i don't understand why or what i did so that my kids constantly attack me all the time.TR- Maybe making them feel they aren't as important as you are because they haven't "done" all the things you have..and maybe they are tired of trying to meet your standards of success..and feeling like they will "never measure up"--I honestly don't think it's you personally they are attacking..but the way you tell them what should be important to them..like they can't have a thought or opinion of their own..that is different than yours..sounds like they are rejecting the "control" that you seem to want over their lives..I don't mean to sound so harsh..but to me it sounds like you think that everyone should always agree with you or they are wrong..and that is a controlling personality..when you should respect their views and opinions just as you want yours respected..that doesn't mean they have to agree with you..just accept that you feel that way..and it's okay...just like it's okay for them to feel the way they do...

well, i lost the first posting, so will try again.1) and the answer is: i don't like being citicized for making a loving suggestion for her (it was her car) and then she goes and about does the same suggestion. Now i didn't suggest it for me, because i don't want one of those cars to commute in, which was my point. I'm not better just different, but i don't criticize others for making suggestions and then do it because its now my suggestion!2) i don't like being complained about for an expert's opinion, just because it disagrees with their point. is the kids' behavior not the "shoot the messenger" behavior that most people dislike? is that the behavior you think i should support?so shoot the dad because he personally asked? never mind that it was an expert? since we can't tear down experts, we tear down messengers?3) X does not support counseling, and the kids pick up on it, and complain to me "making them go." X said in the beginning, at the time of separation, that the kids won't need counseling, just like she would only need 3 sessions for her.and when we did go, the counselor supported the kids position that they are happiest when they get to do anything they want.4) i guess i have a control problem, since i have rules in this house about inappropriate behavior,
LB's i think they call them, criticism, angry outbursts, disrespectful judgements. . . .etc.
I must review how i implement and respond to the inappropriate behavior so that i am not inconsistent. (point learned!)they complained about my rules, they said i had too many and they don't like them. (in the other house, there are very few rules.)so i refuse to turn over my house to the kids' rules. sorry, that i have a control problem. I will post the house rules after i get them written up for them. Then post them here for review.5) yes, the parents are interviewed. We were interviewed after the kid. and i said it was weird, just weird. I realize i didn't get the X's peers in the settlement, it was just weird, and hard, after loving and supporting the place without working for it.6) in the application, one of the questions is: what are your jobs and responsibilities? the only ones listed were at my house and required and suggested by me. funny, that is what the school is looking for, kids who have structure and responsibility so they can make a smooth transition to the school.so yes, i will head to counseling, and will try to find a very good local counselor, and start with the kids as a new year's resolution. . . . if for no other reason than to get them to have a decent relationship with me. . . .and you know, yes, i want to turn out responsible, mentally healthy kids, and if that is a control issue, then i guess i have a control issue, in that i am trying to make them responsible for themselves at my house, and they get it, and do it, and just complain about it constantly, which i find very disturbing, instead of respecting me, and trying to abide, they go the complaining route, which gets them more difficulty. and then they complain about it to X and X suggests that they stay with her. . . (i guess that is conflict avoidance support?? or is it disrespect for authority??)Yes, i need a change of something, maybe my 8 months of paid vacation is getting to me.counseling ho!tom

willbok,thanks for your comments, i realize that you are in the same position as i am.the personality comment that struck me as being very relevant, by my X, is that she said that the future is irrelevant to her. she only lives in the present. Well, does one's choices not have an effect on the future? or if you don't look ahead, do you not prevent problems? i mean if you only do what feels good today, you could be setting yourself up for problems tomorrow, which you then have to solve with alot more effort and hassle, right?does one not have to live the present as the result of past decisions? (the other view, but same concept?) that is the personality stuff that gripes me, since i see the implications of certain decisions, and X see nothing. . . . and the results are the effects on the kids. . . . basically, i was told i shouldn't be "pushing the kids", and this by a childhood education major, and then when the school guildelines came out, i was doing everything the school guidelines were suggesting. . .i guess i am hurting for doing the right stuff as i see it and as have been suggested by schools, and then get criticized in front of the kids, and it sets up the dad is bad, wrong mentality which i see/feel . . .ok, ok counseling!i will go.tom

I must have unlearned the art of flirting. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] Because I still don't have your phone number. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Anne

Tom,I don't think TR meant specific rules. I think she meant controlling in other ways.You do seem to cut down everyone in your spouses life, I think you need to stop and look at the anger you have.I am glad you are going to counseling and take your children. Listent to the counselor Tom.Take care,ANNA

i guess i need to understand in what the other ways i am controlling?i need suggestions. . . . as far as money goes, one could say that, but then i say, if you agree to POJA, no one is controlling, but if you don't agree on POJA, then you can have a controlling spouse. . .Hmmm, if one is a conflict avoider then the other spouse is automatically a controlling spouse??i guess i need help with this. . . i do stand up for what i believe is not correct. . . . is that controlling? if i explain my rational, is that not open and honest and communication??I was talking with a friend of mine, and she said that i haven't had enough time yet, that i still need to process (heal) through the emotions of a long term marriage ending. . . and so i am still too newly minted as a divorcee to be considered a healthy person. . . .oh, and one last thing, i made a requirement in my house that in order for #1 son to get to go out with his friends overnight, that he needed to have his homework all turned in for two months. i am controlling aren't i? however, it was attached to a reward, and yesterday we had parent teacher conferences, and his grades were very high and the teachers were very impressed that he had 100 % on his homework. last year he did not, and was not even close, in fact after last year, i did not think he would be able to be accepted. now, he has changed my view. is it me or him? (both is my answer!)you know, there is some merit to having achievable expectations and some rewards. . . and the X and i used to argue about that. . . she did not believe in any rewards, it is to be expected. . . and you give them what they want and you will get the behavior you expect. . . i am always baffled at certain behaviors and logic, i guess i just don't get it.more counseling needed!!!tomoh, and anne, (978) 555 - 1212
ask for me by name!!!! (seriously)

tom,I and I am sure no one else is saying everything you do in your life is controlling. I am sure there are positive things you do that are good.However, throughout all your post I do see you trying to control.The one thing I don't think you are addressing is the issue of feeling like you are smarter than everyone around you. This is pushing people you love away from you.Take care,ANNA

Tom,I agree kids need rules..and I whole heartly support that...but you never said anything in your posts about "rules" just that they don't agree..with your way..My son prefers to go to his dad's because dad doesn't have "rules" and he can get away with things..the girls get away with more over there
too, but they don't like his trying to control them..(there is a difference) And yes, the counselor agreed that the kids prefer to live w/ out rules..wouldn't you?? If you could do whatever you pleased and get away with it?? Maybe it's the way in which you present yourself..
as in being aggressive..and not being assertive..they are completely different things..
so maybe it's that the way you talk to them it sounds like your being aggressive..and controlling..and not being assertive..to get your point across..just a thought...But, I really wasn't meaning to offend..the way I read what you wrote it sounded controlling..and maybe your rules could be negotated..sit down with them and ask them their thoughts on it..and discuss them..I did this with my kids..they came up with some stiffer punishments than I would have..and we wrote them down..and thats what we go by...

But i don't feel as though i am smarter than everyone around me. I certainly acknowledge when someone else has a valid point, and certanly will adopt it if it is better than any other viewpoint i have had up until now. I feel that i listen to everyone, but at a certain point, i decide for myself. Anna, you were taught that, right? do you consider that to be feeling smarter than everyone else?now that doesn't mean i will always agree with you, i won't, but i can always back up my decision or point of view with reason why I pick it.Now, if i don't feel i am smarter than everyone else, i am fairly successful with my way, for me anyway, and i have always shared my way with others, and the reasons so there is always a logic behind my decisions or opinions. why do people think/feel that I think/feel i am smarter than everyone else? isn't that projection?and i know that there are degrees of control. I don't try to control as much as people assume, i try to encourage with my reasons of how to get towards their goal. i have my way and my reasons, because they have been successful for me. is that control?That's why i ask for why one sees me as controlling. Is controlling pushy? i have been known to be pushy? meaning, I don't always take no for an answer, especially the first time. I hold people to my interpreting my words plainly, and not adding some personal interpretation. . .
I don't always let faulty logic go on as faulty. . . so how is one controlling? to disagree with a spouse should not be considered controlling, to say someone else should not do something because of my fears is controlling. . . and i don't believe i do this. . .so how am i perceived as controlling? seriously. . .WIFTTy

WIFTY,In the past you and I have disagreed on a number of issues, mostly because my parenting style is more like your ex-wife's than like yours - but I think it is inappropriate to call you "controlling." You and your ex-wife have different parenting styles - but that doesn't mean either is wrong. I think it says a lot for the quality and openness of your relationship with your kids if they aren't scared to tell you that you are acting like a jerk if they think you are. If they stop arguing with you, then you should worry. I think it is entirely reasonable to question why someone who can afford a brand new SUV on steroids would apply for a scholarship. BTW, I think both the Suburban and the Expedition are yuppie cars - real men (and women) drive Ford trucks. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

You may find this difficult to believe, but I agree that something's fishy.My ex, who was bemoaning the fact that he had no money for food, suddenly bought himself a 2001 Silverado - what's that, like $25,000 or so?No, it's none of my beezwax really, but hey, I'm nosey, and I'm broke, so it kinda sorta gets under my craw.And as far as your original question - - I think there's such a thing as tooooo much SUV, and both of them qualify. I mean, unless you have the Brady Bunch riding in there, who needs that kind of room?

Okay, Let me try and rephrase some of the questions so that you might answer them..and not ask more questions..WIFTTy- I took that very seriously, and in 10 years, we got there, and then I was accused of being rich, of wanting to live in our own house, of making X feel bad with my successes. TR-1)do you think that maybe you "implied" what you did was "more" important than what she did??2)What specifically did she say that made you feel as if she was "accusing" you of being rich?WIFTTy- And to top it off, i asked her what i did at my job, and she said she didn't know (after almost 10 years of doing it, and doing it with her once for her volunteer job!) ok, ok, the fog was so thick that her internal radar was not working!TR- I understand that your upset that she doesn't know what you do for a living..but doing it once with her doesn't mean she understands what it is you do..is it something you talked about and took the time to explain it to her?
WIFTTy- i guess i really wish i knew why she decided that this course of action is the best, but she refuses to answer the question, nor is she very willing to share the kids with me.TR- What is she doing that is preventing you from spending time with your kids? And what specifically are you doing to make sure you have a relationship with your kids?
WIFTTy-basically, i am still emotionally attached through the kids because i have to accept what i don't understand, or refuse to understand, or can't believe happened to me.TR- which is it? are you refusing to understand?
I don't think many ppl here believe it's happening to them either..but it is a reality that eventually has to be faced..WIFTTy- This week, X and I and our oldest son interviewed for admissions to the school where i went, where I lived for almost 20 years and X has taught at for 20 years. Seeing all the "old teachers that i coached with and lived with, etc." that i used to have was weird. very weird, alot of them did not want to talk to me, but were very nice to our son.TR- What was 'weird' about it? that they seemed to ignore you? WIFTTy- It also pisses me off that the values passed to our kids is totally inconsistent, totally scrambled, and totally incomprehensible. And the values we espoused together to the kids are then sabotaged by her actions. TR- 1) Are you sure she even shared the same values you do? 2)or did you assume she shared the same values?

WIFTTy- because i see her personality more and more in our kids, and i hate the "new" personality that they are slowly adopting. TR-1) Why do you "hate" this 'new' personality so much??
2) Is it because they have a different personality than you?
3) Are you sure it's a new personality and not just something you have ignored?WIFTTy-so i constantly "feel" as though i am still being criticized through the kids for being adventurous, knowledgable, for having met or known lots of different people, for being successful at several different areas in my life.TR- What specifically have they said that makes you feel they are critizing you?WIFTTy-so i constantly feel everything i stood for, hard working, knoweldge seeking, adventurous, interested in lots of different stuff, good at athletics and coaching, and knowing how to plan and follow a plan, is just being trashed totally, and that i feel my relationship with my kids just went down hill completely after easter weekend last year, and has been very antagonistic ever since.TR- They can't make you 'feel' anything..those are your feelings from inside you..so why do you feel that everything you value is being trashed?What happened Easter weekend last year that you think may have caused the rift in your relationship with your kids?WIFTTy-and i don't understand why or what i did so that my kids constantly attack me all the time.TR- What do they say to you when you feel they are
attacking you? And have you gone to your kids and asked them what you've said or done that makes them feel the way they do? Not going through mom..but asking them personally?

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:
so how am i perceived as controlling? seriously. .
WIFTTy<hr></blockquote>Wiftty,I know you are wondering where I or others are getting these. Some came from this thread and then there are other post...I am going to try very hard to explain my opinion with some quotes of your post. I went back and copied some of the these.I know your world has been turned up side down the last year and I think you are so angry and bitter you really need to stop and see things that you saying. Also, again, I am glad you are going to get counseling for you and your children.You said these things, <blockquote>quote:<hr>
yet, she refused to talk about money, did not want to understand our investments, and because she works with the very liberal minded, public
service mentality and the poor me teacher attitudes, she feels justified in her actions.<hr></blockquote>I have heard you say similar things about her job as a teacher.Through your post you seem to think of highly of money and job prestige. There is nothing wrong with your wife not thinking in a different way. It sounds like you criticizing her for having this "public service mentality and poor me teacher attitudes." <blockquote>quote:<hr>
She refuses to apologize for being rude, refuses to apologize for being uncooperative and not following her agreements. Yes, i am tough with
her, and strict with the kids, but this is for their own good, since noone in her family was ever strict or structured, nor is she, someone has to.<hr></blockquote>Perhaps she doesn't think she was rude or uncooperative, perhaps this is just your own thinking. If that's the case, you were trying to control her by being more cooperative and seeing your side."Tough with her". Are you her father? Sounds controlling to me. <blockquote>quote:<hr>
Her current OM is the opposite of my intellectualism, sports oriented, adventurous persona. He is basically marginally educated and can be easily controlled, like my XMIL controls my XFIL. (BTW, my XFIL has a Yale Masters degree, and talks with the intellect of a 15 year old to make my XMIL feel smart and dominate over him. and he shakes hands like a woman. UGH!)
<hr></blockquote>So, you are basically saying her new boyfriend is dumb and can be controlled??? Are you saying a person marginally educated can be controlled?You are also judging her parents relationship. Even though it works for them. Even though XFIL has a Yale Master degree you think he has the intellect of a 15 year old. You seem to also be saying MIL is dumb too.
<blockquote>quote:<hr>
I however, am not a conflict avoider, but a conflict resolver. In the end, i realized that nothing would change, and our relationship would only exist if the relationship was similar to my XIL's which are perfectly co-dependent, never talk feelings, only weather and traffic and kid and teacher jobs. no real world stuff. i pointed out where they were totally wrong, could physically see the evidence that they were wrong, and then they refused to talk to me any more.<hr></blockquote>What are you saying? You actually went to her parents and told them where they were wrong. You pointed this out to them and then they too refused to talk to you anymore. This just sounds like now you were trying to control her parents also.
<blockquote>quote:<hr>
She said her friends (who lot of them were having affairs at the time) told her she should divorce me, and join them (the ones that couldn't
escape from their own town and their own ineptness.)<hr></blockquote>So, her friends are all dumb and foolish too because they didn't escape their own town???? <blockquote>quote:<hr>I now am pretty confident that she has a combination of OCD, BPD and NPD.<hr></blockquote>You are saying FIL, MIL and daughter all has one or more personality disorders???? Somewhere in another post you say Grandmother in law has a personality disorder to You are not a psychologist and yet you have made this diagnosis on the whole family???? <blockquote>quote:<hr>
even though son says he is an INTP, he is given so much freedom and little responsibility, he appears to have the makings of the Narcissism
also, and he does not like getting along with me, as it is much tougher, although more adventurous, more independently responsible.
<hr></blockquote>Now, your son is also starting to show signs of Narcissism too??? Is this just because he doesn't get along with you too?
<blockquote>quote:<hr>
I'm sure both of wives were/are very physically appealing to the eyes..which was a big part of the initial attraction..yet, they lacked the
conversational skills that you both require for a fullfilling relationship..and when you tried to change that in them,(ie:challenging them to think
deeper about a subject,and not just give a standard response), they began to fight for control in other areas of the relationship..to gain what would seem to them a more equal footing within the marriage.. <hr></blockquote>It's the way you word this. It sounds here like you think you are smarter than your wife, just because she thinks and responds differently from you.
<blockquote>quote:<hr>
Nope, you see, we were a good match until i decided to grow up and become whom i wanted to be. that was career oriented, and after i got
my MBA, and started working, everything was still ok, but then i got my executive position, and then the X got threatened, partly because i had a
hard time putting up with the stupid routine. . . and there are lots of more variables which precipitated her MLC, but let me say, i am the one
without all the personality disorders, and without the foo issues that she learned. and i grew up more, and demanded more from her, and
she couldn't give it, and refused to acknowledge that she needed to grow up. . . .
<hr></blockquote>I can see where she would be upset with your attitude. You seem to use words like stupid, ignorant and so forth when it comes to the things she does or she says. Also, I think she was more upset by all the hours you worked. I read in a post you worked something like 10 hours a day, I think 6 or 7 days a week. Is that right? You said she complained about her needs. I would too.Then, you said you demanded more from her. That sounds controlling to me.
<blockquote>quote:<hr>
I lived with someone like you, my X, and she LBed all the time, even tonight, as I fixed her computer so our son could submit his pumpkin
photograph to a contest, She has had a color printer for a year. I asked her a simple question:me: "Have you ever used photographic paper in it?"
her: "I don't have a digital camera to use."
me: "you can get pictures through email to print, as well as from the internet"
Her: "You didn't tell me I had to get photographic paper."I asked a simple yes or no question. She couldn't say "No." she couldn't admit to being ignorant, naieve, or whatever the fear of not being in control or right is described. . . . (whatever f****** disorder she has at the moment!)
<hr></blockquote>I have read about the anger you had over this incident in a few post. First, with the way you feel about your x and the things you say about her, I would think she would be on the defensive with you all the time. Second, you are trying to control her words with what you want her to say instead of what she wants to say. You are not in court, you are not a lawyer saying "ANSWER THE QUESTION, YES OR NO". She also may have just been thinking she didn't have the correct paper for the project and since you were the one helping the son she wished you would have told her to get it. Whatever she was thinking this was so minor, and sounds like control to me.
<blockquote>quote:<hr>
instead she chose to project her responsibility on me. I have discussed this LB with her, given her examples of how to talk correctly, told how how it made me feel, blah, blah, blah, it made no difference. . . <hr></blockquote>Again, controlling her words and even giving her examples on talking correctly. Sounds like you are the one Lbing. Control!
<blockquote>quote:<hr>
just lectured the X on how she needs to parent the children so that they don't become like her. . . . although I never said the "become like you"
part, but she got the point. She couldn't disagree, and she admits that I just make her mad, (usually because i disagree with her, and most
times, I am righter than she is . . . because she never had real parents, she never learned how to show, she just learned how to teach by
lecture.)
<hr></blockquote>WOW, CONTROL!Righter? You think you are more correct than she is most of the time. I can see where she would be upset with your opinion. How would you like it if she came to you and lectured you indicating to be careful not to let the children grow up to be like you? Big LB.Tom, we all need improvement in our lives. We all need to see where we can better ourselves. I hope you will take some of the things I said and reevaluate the anger and control issues you have.I am not saying she doesn't have problems or doesn't have control issues too. Also I am not saying everything you do is controlling. However, you can not change her. You can only look at the things you are doing and change you. As for all your post it seems like you are soul searching, the only problem is you are searching her's and everyone in her life, instead of your's.Take care and good luck,ANNA[ November 17, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]

WIFTTy-1) and the answer is: i don't like being citicized for making a loving suggestion for her (it was her car) and then she goes and about does the same suggestion. TR- What loving suggestion did you make about her car? And what makes you say she took the suggestion on as her own?WIFTTy-2) i don't like being complained about for an expert's opinion, just because it disagrees with their point. TR- could you explain this?WIFTTy- is the kids' behavior not the "shoot the messenger" behavior that most people dislike? is that the behavior you think i should support?TR-What was the message that you feel they shot you for? And what exactly did they say or do that triggered these feelings inside you?WIFTTy-so shoot the dad because he personally asked? never mind that it was an expert? since we can't tear down experts, we tear down messengers?TR- huh?? I think I understand what you are saying here..but I want to be sure..so correct me if I am wrong..okay? I believe your talking about your saying you met Carl Sagan..and you were sharing this info with them..but..had your kids asked a question about him, or what he thought? or did you just think it was pertitant to the conversation you were having?And how specifically did they tear you down?WIFTTy- X does not support counseling, and the kids pick up on it, and complain to me "making them go." X said in the beginning, at the time of separation, that the kids won't need counseling, just like she would only need 3 sessions for her.TR- well, she may honestly feel she doesn't need "counseling" a lot of ppl feel that way..WIFTTy-and when we did go, the counselor supported the kids position that they are happiest when they get to do anything they want.TR- LOL..Like I said before..aren't we all happiest when we get to do whatever we want??WIFTTy-so i refuse to turn over my house to the kids' rules. sorry, that i have a control problem. I will post the house rules after i get them written up for them. Then post them here for review.TR- Actually I don't let my kids run the house either..rules are a good thing for kids..(if they weren't would the schools also have them??)WIFTTy-in the application, one of the questions is: what are your jobs and responsibilities? the only ones listed were at my house and required and suggested by me. funny, that is what the school is looking for, kids who have structure and responsibility so they can make a smooth transition to the school.TR- Don't mean to be nosy..but what type of school is this? I understand it's a private school..but is it a military school?
WIFTTy-so yes, i will head to counseling, and will try to find a very good local counselor, and start with the kids as a new year's resolution. if for no other reason than to get them to have a decent relationship with me. TR- And you should go for you..not just so that you have a better relationship with your kids..but because it will help you..WIFFty-and you know, yes, i want to turn out responsible, mentally healthy kids, and if that is a control issue, then i guess i have a control issue, in that i am trying to make them responsible for themselves at my house, and they get it, and do it, and just complain about it constantly, which i find very disturbing, instead of respecting me, and trying to abide, they go the complaining route, which gets them more difficulty. TR- I want the same thing for my kids..and from my kids...but you can't force them not to complain..
all kids complain. WIFTTy- and then they complain about it to X and X suggests that they stay with her. (i guess that is conflict avoidance support?? or is it disrespect for authority??)TR- Actually its called playing one parent against the other..another thing all kids do..especially if they know one of them will support them..it's like them coming and asking you if they can have ice cream and they haven't had dinner yet, so you say no..then they go ask mom, and instead of mom saying have you asked your dad? what did he say? then back what dad said..NO, she just says yes..The way I personally handle things like this when my kids come home complaining about things at dad's house..I ask them..have you discussed this with him? I get the "well, no," And I say, "well, that is his house, and if you have a problem with something that goes on there, then you need to discuss that with him, and until you can sit down and talk to him about what it is that is bothering you..then it will stay that way"But, from the sounds of it your spouse isn't like that..mine isn't either..my son gets in trouble here and he calls dad and says he wants to go live w/ him..(and dad plays that) son would do the same thing when he was at dad's..he'd get in trouble there and call me asking me to come get him..I'd ask him..what did he get in trouble for?? because I know the game he plays..and he gets mad and hangs up the phone because I don't play into the game..and just say okay..I'll come get you..so stbx just lets him run wild..and do whatever he wants and just gives in to him..because he doesn't want to be the bad guy..
Prime example-
son had asked one night if a friend could spend the night w/ him at his dad's- his dad said no..
because the last time this friend stayed the night they were to wild- so son hung up on him..and went storming to his room..dad called back asking to speak to son..and told him..okay his friend can stay the night..son got his way..(he's only 6 years old, and has learned how to manipulate his dad to get his way) just as it sounds like your kids are doing to their mom..But, don't take things like that personally..and realize that they are going to say things that are hurtful to you..because you set down rules for them..it's the nature of parenting..but, your right in that you do not have to except that disrespect from your kids..Something you could say..when they start with the MOM doesn't make us do this..or whatever the catch phrase of the day is.."I understand that, and thats okay, but this is my house, and I have certain rules that I wish to be respected while you are here, if your mother chooses not to have those same rules well, thats okay, it's her house" it's not disrespectful towards her..and it sets boundries at your home..

When...You have got to be freeking kidding me! Your relationship is in jepardy right now and you are asking this question???? Please get your priorities straight and work on your relationship with your spouse and children! Guess what!!!! No one gives a damn what kind of car you drive, and if its that important to them, they are not good friends!PRIORITIES FIRST!Bryan [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

WIFTTy-
oh, and one last thing, i made a requirement in my house that in order for #1 son to get to go out with his friends overnight, that he needed to have his homework all turned in for two months. i am controlling aren't i? however, it was attached to a reward, and yesterday we had parent teacher conferences, and his grades were very high and the teachers were very impressed that he had 100 % on his homework. last year he did not, and was not even close, in fact after last year, i did not think he would be able to be accepted. now, he has changed my view. is it me or him? (both is my answer!)TR- Actually I think the two months is a bit much..but, thats just my opinion..something that happened w/ me and my daughter was quite the same here..she didn't do her homework..and I quit forcing her to do it because it was always a struggle..I couldn't keep her grounded for ever..
She's in Jr High...she knows she has homework..she knows when it's due..so I wouldn't say anything about it..she failed..her teachers suggested summer school..I said, No! She didn't want to do the work this year..she can go back through it again next year..why should I have to take off from work and lose pay to get her to and from school?? Why should I have to suffer for her lack of responsibility?? I shouldn't..this year..she has one of the same teachers who failed her last year..and she's making A's in his class..as a matter of fact..she's on the A/B honor roll this year..and she's actually paying attention and learning..she's not mad at me..because she realizes that she was the one who failed because she didn't do the assignments..and she's becoming more responsible..in other areas as well..WIFTTy-you know, there is some merit to having achievable expectations and some rewards. . . and the X and i used to argue about that. . . she did not believe in any rewards, it is to be expected. . . and you give them what they want and you will get the behavior you expect. TR- I agree w/ you here..if the reward fits the behavior..but there are some things..that should just be given..and not expected to have a price tag (reward) attached to them..WIFTTy-i am always baffled at certain behaviors and logic, i guess i just don't get it.TR- I think we all are sometimes..

Anna, One of the things that you posted about the wives being physically appealing to the eyes..WiFTTY didn't say...I said that..in how "I" perceived his relationship with his wife..Just wanted to make that correction...

WIFTTy,It not only sounds controlling..but condesending..Look back at your posts and how you spoke to her - you talked down to her..like she's not as good as you..and that is condesending..And from the sounds of it..you talk to your children, and your xil's the same way..and yes,
they quit talking to you..because nobody likes to be talked down to..

Anna,1) we made in the six figures together, had a second beach house with a mortage of $350 per month, no mortgage, heating, or electric bills at the first house (employer provided) and only a food bill, and she told me that she didn't want the beach house because she didn't want to appear rich, but then fell in love with a better, closer to beach house in a private area. We tried to sell ours to get that one, and it sold just before ours sold, and she spend the whole day crying because we sold our house. . . I held her, tried to comfort her, and then 6 months later, she told me, "I never wanted another beach house again. . . been there, done that. . ." Anna, i can't keep up with the feelings, they were changing all the time. . . and they still do, and she appeared to me to be a "Do as i say, now, not as i act" and to top it off, she said that she didn't want to be rich, (and we are not! add two low middle class salaries together and you get a high middle class salary) because poor people get more sympathy! 2) i didn't want to be the only one controlling the money, i wanted it to be a joint responsibility. She gave me $10,000 out of her savings account, and told me vewry sternly, "I want statements, and updates." I wanted her to be informed. She never asked for a statement or an update, and when I talked to her about it, she just said, "You're in charge, i don't understand it anyway and don't want to. " She told me once that she couldn't call the investment company to make an investment, even if i wrote down what to say, she refused, (for fear of being wrong) even with the information in front of her. Isn't a good relationship when you discuss all aspects of your life together? isn't it not controlling to want the other spouse to be informed? Otherwise I would be controlling?? NO?Oh, and both X and I agreed that her parents had a poor relationship. X told me she refused to have relationship like her parents. Xused to comment on the same points i made here, everything I have said here was mostly agreed to by X. And one day, i sat down with her dad, and talked to him about how X wanted a better relationship and how X wanted it to be better. . . .And another day, XILs came to our house, and X ran upstairs, crying, complaining that her parents would walking into house with no one home, sit down and when we came home, would ask "what's for dinner?" this upset X so much, that I stood up for my W against her parents, threw her parents out, politely, and then our relationship with them was very respectful. . . and X liked the new relationship with her parents, and so I stood up for her, and stuff got better. you see, more to come later, I did as much as i could for her, when she spoke up and talked to me, oh, and read my personal email to you, her hours were longer than mine, and unpaid, and yet, i was criticized for being rich because i was paid for mine, and she wasn't.Oh, you miss one very important point, in the beginning, her projection of her feelings onto me, and i refuse to accept responsibility for her feelings. So the $64,000 question: does one dumb oneself down if your spouse says, "Your success makes me feel inadequate?" cannot success be shared? is it not ego that one has to feel right all the time?X said to me, "I want to be right!" well, marriage is a system of action and interaction, and not one just being right, which is control in my book. And control is not asking an informational answer, otherwise I could not ask any questions, NO? my problem with the computer situation was her not answering the questions, but blaming or projecting her feeling inadequate for not knowing onto me, after asking a simple informational question.How would you feel if you asked your H: "Honey, did you happen to get any milk while you were at the grocery store?" and the answer was "You didn't tell me i had to." be back later?? you know, if i can't ask informational questions, which she told me more than once, "don't ask me questions i have to say no to." and all through the beginning of the relationship she said "Ask me for my opinion, don't assume you know what's best for me." so my points are, I can't keep up with all the constantly changing requirements, feelings, etc, to the point where I can't ask anything without being complained to or projected onto as my fault.
This behavior is controlling behavior, it is not communicative not loving, in my opinion. . . .Have to play with the kids, will be back soon.

wiftty,I am going to respond quickly because I have to go.You continually try to take the focus off the things you need to improve in your communication with others by justifing wrong actions with things you that are correct in doing. Everyone of us do correct things as well as wrong things. Also you justify your actions by saying the things she did wrong. You could write a book on here on everything you did right and everything she did wrong. However this would not help you improve your communication and the way you are handling the people in your life. It is so obvious you need to make changes in your life before you lose your children's respect totally. Instead of seeing this you are debating the issue by putting in all these other irrevelent things. Focus on the things I said to you and TR is saying to you and try to make changes here, instead of focussing on "but I did this and this was correct". You never admit any of the things you do need to be changed or could be the way you are appraoching things.It is obvious now to me, you are not going to "get it". This is not about changing your wife, this is about changing you. I see you losing everyone in your life that you love if you don't make some changes in your life on approaching the people you love. Then you can be correct, be the smartest and be the best all by yourself.Again, I am glad you are going to try family counseling.Now regarding your questions how would I feel when your wife came home and you said, "Did you get milk?" and your wife said, "You didn't tell me to get milk." My husband has said this same thing to me and I did respond in the same way mainly because over the years I have said "No" and then I get a lecture on how I should have remembered the milk..... However, my husband "got" what I was telling him, it did not rub my husband wrong, he started making me a list before I left. So, your wife is assuming your next comment. Now, the bottom line of this is "What does it really matter, so she didn't answer you with a "no" and respond the way you wanted her to, this again is so MINOR, all you needed to say was "ok, I'll make a list for next time or run to the store myself." I think this is very controlling on your part, she is cutting you off at the path, because she knows you are going to lecture her with a "no" answer. This is why it is so annoying to you too, because she took your opporunity to lecture her away.As for the investment issues. There is absolutely nothing wrong with one person being more stronger in this area than her. She left this up to you. Absolutely nothing wrong with this but you wanted to control her and make her want it to be as important in her life as your life. That is control.There are things she did wrong in the marriage Tom, your MIL and FIL may have had there problems too. It was your place to have them leave your house when they made your wife upset, however, it was not your place to go to them and point out what they are doing wrong in their own lives, this was going over the boundaries of relationships with people. You can not change any of these people, you can only change yourself and how you communicate. Again, stop trying to address their issues and address the problems TR and I pointed out through these post. Did I say this was going to be quick???? Sheesh I should have known better. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] 
Take care and good luck,ANNA

TR- What loving suggestion did you make about her car? And what makes you say she took the suggestion on as her own?WIFTTy - "since you don't like the car, lets go look at new ones." i like suburbans at the time, still do. after projecting her dilike of suburbans onto me, she is buying a look alike.TR- could you explain this?Yes, i countered their statement with a statement to the contrary with an experts opinion, that i happened to have met. then they shifted the conversation to criticizing me for "always" saying that you know these famous people. How does that change in topic keep the conversation going? does it not attack the messenger? why should you put someone down in tone for a fact?TR-What was the message that you feel they shot you for? And what exactly did they say or do that triggered these feelings inside you?TR- huh?? I think I understand what you are saying here..but I want to be sure..so correct me if I am wrong..okay?I believe your talking about your saying you met Carl Sagan..and you were sharing this info with them..but..had your kids asked a question about him, or what he thought? or did you just think it was pertitant to the conversation you were having?And how specifically did they tear you down?that i met the expert. in a disrespectful tone, "Dad, how come you always say you know these people?" technicality, I have met them personally, and asked them diretly for a direct answer. no misinterpretation, no interpretation. then they brought up a point that i made years ago, that one of college underclass men that lived across the hall from me was part of Mel Fisher's underwater recovery team from the Atocia. so how does that follow in the conversation about the universe? sounds like looking to put down to me. why bring up something from the past again that is irrelevant to the conversation at hand?TR- well, she may honestly feel she doesn't need "counseling" a lot of ppl feel that way..WIFTTy - well, everyone here is telling me, and i tried, but must find a better counselor, that i should get it for myself and the kids. . . i have gone before and am not afraid to go again. so my suggestion was to her also, and she denied every needing it. TR- LOL..Like I said before..aren't we all happiest when we get to do whatever we want??WIFTTy - point being, he did nothing except relay to me what i already knew.TR- Actually I don't let my kids run the house either..rules are a good thing for kids..(if they weren't would the schools also have them??)WIFTTy - I just sent them to their rooms just now with not following the rules for a third time, and 9 yo d said she would only cooperate if i asked nicely. (which i did three times)TR- Don't mean to be nosy..but what type of school is this? I understand it's a private school..but is it a military school?nope, top liberal arts boarding school in the NE.TR- And you should go for you..not just so that you have a better relationship with your kids..but because it will help you..WIFTTy - other things will also help, mostly my surroundings. . . .TR- I want the same thing for my kids..and from my kids...but you can't force them not to complain..
all kids complain.WIFTTy - yes, but what they complain about is very tine, insignificant stuff, such that they are learning to make mountains out of molehills. . . TR- Actually its called playing one parent against the other..another thing all kids do..especially if they know one of them will support them..it's like them coming and asking you if they can have ice cream and they haven't had dinner yet, so you say no..then they go ask mom, and instead of mom saying have you asked your dad? what did he say? then back what dad said..NO, she just says yes..The way I personally handle things like this when my kids come home complaining about things at dad's house..I ask them..have you discussed this with him? I get the "well, no," And I say, "well, that is his house, and if you have a problem with something that goes on there, then you need to discuss that with him, and until you can sit down and talk to him about what it is that is bothering you..then it will stay that way"But, from the sounds of it your spouse isn't like that..mine isn't either..my son gets in trouble here and he calls dad and says he wants to go live w/ him..(and dad plays that) son would do the same thing when he was at dad's..he'd get in trouble there and call me asking me to come get him..I'd ask him..what did he get in trouble for?? because I know the game he plays..and he gets mad and hangs up the phone because I don't play into the game..and just say okay..I'll come get you..so stbx just lets him run wild..and do whatever he wants and just gives in to him..because he doesn't want to be the bad guy..
Prime example-
son had asked one night if a friend could spend the night w/ him at his dad's- his dad said no..
because the last time this friend stayed the night they were to wild- so son hung up on him..and went storming to his room..dad called back asking to speak to son..and told him..okay his friend can stay the night..son got his way..(he's only 6 years old, and has learned how to manipulate his dad to get his way) just as it sounds like your kids are doing to their mom..But, don't take things like that personally..and realize that they are going to say things that are hurtful to you..because you set down rules for them..it's the nature of parenting..but, your right in that you do not have to except that disrespect from your kids..Something you could say..when they start with the MOM doesn't make us do this..or whatever the catch phrase of the day is.."I understand that, and thats okay, but this is my house, and I have certain rules that I wish to be respected while you are here, if your mother chooses not to have those same rules well, thats okay, it's her house"it's not disrespectful towards her..and it sets boundries at your home..WIFTTy - they just started in on me questioning why i can say there are rules here in my house. . . so i used your answer, and they started to get it. But what i get upset with, is the same battle starting all over again each time to the same conclusion.later. . .

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:
So i need help, which car is the rich person's car, and which car is the working person's car?<hr></blockquote>Suburban is old money. Expedition is old money, or tasteful new money. Navigator is old money or gauche, garish new money. Escalade is hip-hop thugs (note the gigantic rear crest on the new one) or people who just have to have a locomotive with a Corvette engine.

WIFTTy - "since you don't like the car, lets go look at new ones." i like suburbans at the time, still do. after projecting her dilike of suburbans onto me, she is buying a look alike.TR- Okay..so she bought a look-a-like..she chose one she liked..it was ultimately the car she would drive..I don't see where that discounts your opinion..or your choice..or that she took on the choice as her own..except in picking the make and model of the vehicle she liked better..
WIFTTy-Yes, i countered their statement with a statement to the contrary with an experts opinion, that i happened to have met. then they shifted the conversation to criticizing me for "always" saying that you know these famous people. How does that change in topic keep the conversation going? does it not attack the messenger? why should you put someone down in tone for a fact?TR- Okay, when you countered their statement did you say that "When I talked to this person" or did you say something like..well "according to So and So..this is whatever? the thing here is, it's not important that you met the person..it's what that person said that was relevant to the conversation.. do you understand the difference?
WIFFTy- that i met the expert. in a [b] disrespectful tone, "Dad, how come you always say you know these people?" technicality, I have met them personally, and asked them diretly for a direct answer. no misinterpretation, no interpretation. then they brought up a point that i made years ago, that one of college underclass men that lived across the hall from me was part of Mel Fisher's underwater recovery team from the Atocia. so how does that follow in the conversation about the universe? sounds like looking to put down to me. why bring up something from the past again that is irrelevant to the conversation at hand?TR- Okay again you met the person..that part really isn't relevent..it sounds like they were trying to point out to you at least one other instance that you had done the same thing..trying to make your point by saying "I know this person" which again your knowing the person isn't relevent..WIFTTy - well, everyone here is telling me, and i tried, but must find a better counselor, that i should get it for myself and the kids. . . i have gone before and am not afraid to go again. so my suggestion was to her also, and she denied every needing it. TR- I personally feel my stbx needs counseling too..but for "me" to tell him this he gets the same way.."There is NOTHING wrong w/ me!! I don't NEED counseling" There are things "I" see in him that "I" feel he needs professional help in dealing with them..but..until 'he' see's it as a problem..he will deny he needs it..so I quit telling "him" I still stay/feel it..but just not to him..TR- Look at it this way..what if your ex was in counseling and came to you and said.."You have some serious problems and need to get some counseling" how do "you" think you would react??WIFTTy - point being, he did nothing except relay to me what i already knew.TR- Okay..
WIFTTy - I just sent them to their rooms just now with not following the rules for a third time, and 9 yo d said she would only cooperate if i asked nicely. (which i did three times)TR- Mine do the same thing..I have a 13, 9, and 6 yr old..they also say this to each other.."If you ask Nicely" so they do understand that to be "told" to do something and to be "asked" to do something sounds differently..they understand that to be "asked" shows respect, even if they don't understand what the defintion of respect it..
something you can do (I did this with my oldest daughter today)her sister asked her to "stop" poking her, and she wouldn't..so I made her get out the dictionary, look up the word "stop" and write out the definition 10 times..later this afternoon when I took them to their dad's she started doing something to her brother..and he asked her to stop..again she didn't..I asked her
what does "stop" mean..and she told me..I said..now, what did your brother ask you? she said
"he asked me to stop" I said okay..then what do YOU need to do? She said Stop..then she started about how I didn't make them write out the defination and how it wasn't fair..(whiney voice)
and I said.."Your absolutely right, I didn't make them do it this morning..I made you..this isn't about them, this is about you and your actions..when they do something and you ask them to stop..THEN I can work with teaching them the same lesson- and that is to respect other peoples Boundries..when they no..or they say stop..then you do not continue..just like you want them to listen to you when ask them to stop..or you say No
to something..
WIFTTY-nope, top liberal arts boarding school in the NE.TR- I don't know..I guess I have never understood why parents would send their kids to boarding school other than to turn the responsibility of raising of their children over to someone else..
While the parents do whatever they want and not have to deal w/ the day to day joys and trials of parenting..it seems pretty selfish to me..yes, I understand the education is supposed to be the top..but book education isn't whats most important in life..it's knowing that your parents are there for you when you need them..and making you feel loved..it's the daily hugs, the daily communication..that helps them grow emotionally..Just a question..how do you get along with your parents? I notice you mention your wives parents a lot..but what of your own?? To me, if your parents sent you away to school it was as if they
abandoned you..sure they "provided" a roof over your head, food and clothing but..what about love?
what about emotional support when you needed it?
who was there to give you a hug at the end of a bad day at school? Who did you talk to about your day? WIFTTy - yes, but what they complain about is very tine, insignificant stuff, such that they are learning to make mountains out of molehills. TR- All kids do this as well..this is a part of growing up. (i know adults that do this also)WIFTTy - they just started in on me questioning why i can say there are rules here in my house. . . so i used your answer, and they started to get it. But what i get upset with, is the same battle starting all over again each time to the same conclusion.TR- This is called challenging your rules..all kids do this as well..and as long as you stay consistant they will learn to accept them..and respect them..All parents get frustrated when the when their kids challenge them..over and over..but they need to know that you will be consistant..if you give in one time..they will know what your breaking point it..and they will carry it to that level every time..if it takes you three times to get to the point you send them to their rooms..they will push you till that third time..because they know this is dad's breaking point..if you started sending them the first time..they would learn okay when dad says STOP..He means it..if we don't stop now this is going to happen..they learn your boundries, and then pretty soon..the first time you say stop doing something..they will stop right away..and after awhile..it just takes your looking at them in a stern way..and they will get the message..Look at school for example..your teacher says "if you disrupt my class, I will send you to the office with a referal" so someone in the class is GOING to disrupt the class to see if the teacher will really send them to the office..(they will challenge the rules) if the teacher follows through and sends the child to the office..they know they mean what they say..if they don't send them to the office, then the entire class will know the teacher doesn't mean what was said..and everyone will disrupt the class and the teacher will lose control of the class..Children do the same thing with parents..and when parents follow through consistantly..the kids learn respect, and they learn boundries..So just know that you are not alone in this with your kids..ALL PARENTS go through the same things
with their children..

When..WOW...all of this thought into cars and status symbols???? You should maybe get a nice HOBBY for yourself and stop worrying about status! Come on now, I thought this status game went out in the 80's!!!How about a 78 Ford Pinto for you! You would be so cool in that car!Have Fun!Bryan [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

you know, all this about status, yet i don't put any status on car, i have bought used cars and new cars, all VW rabbits and jettas. i don't wash them, except once every spring to get the salt off from winter, i drive them until they can't move any more, and i fix them myself so that i save the money on labor when i can. most cars i have either die from an accident or old age of 150,000 miles or more.oh, and bryan, there is no marriage to save.everyone, <blockquote>quote:<hr> A disrespectful judgement occurs whenever someone tries to impose his or her system of values or beliefs on someone else. <hr></blockquote>
Love busters page 45I do not appreciate being told i am responsible for another adult's ignorance anytime i ask an informational question, especially when the equipment in question is not mine, nor do i have any responsibility for it. if you don't like that response, tough.also, i do not appreciate being criticized for liking something, especially when the reason given is wrong. That is a major disrespectful judgement. if you don't like that, tough.As what happened Friday night, one hour before my pickup for my weekend, X called me to ask if she had to have the kids ready for me for my weekend when i picked them up. Why can't people take their agreements seriously and responsibly? If you don't like that, tough.Of course i said yes, she had to have the kids ready for me to pick up. And the kids were ready, but in the end, did not have all their stuff ready, and we had to go back the next day to get retainers, books, and jackets.Again, 9 yo daughter was playing one parent against the other, and i don't bend very easily on those issues. Today, 12 yo old was trying to get this and that, i said no, I won't be your servant, he said, I know, i am just being lazy. They get the message after they spend more than one day with me. do they act responsibly after being with me more than a couple of days, you bet. if you don't like my parenting, tough.What pisses me off is that everytime I get the kids, they have to relearn personal responsibility, many times i pick the kids up, they are not ready, or are not home, or start a new project just as i show up, and then try to get mad at me for interupting them to take them to my house. One time, on Wednesday, X agreed that kids should not have friends over on days i pick them up. When I picked up on Friday, she had already forgotten, and the kids had friends over, and i had to wait for awhile.You know, she will always piss me off with crap, blaming me for her stuff, we agreed in mediation that i would have the kids on February school vacation, and April school vacation because she works those vacations. Well now she wants to change it, she still works those weeks, but now wants to go back on our agreement. you know, it get tiring and frustrating to make agreements with someone, and then they want to change it later. You know i get irritated when the CS parent who gets the kids 11 days out of 14, says to me that she doesn't get to see them at all during the week, and that she only gets to see them on weekends, so she wants more time with them.Well, that's just more crap i have to put up with.
What pisses me off is the constant battle for my time with the kids.What pisses me off is the constant battle i have to have with X when she accepts the children playing her off against me.Basically, she pisses me off to have to interact with her, and no one will ever be able to change that, except her. I hate having to be on the constant look out for attempted manipulation. If you don't like it, tough. . . .And my kids and i have a fine time together after we get through the ritual authority challenge. so this is the end of my posting on this thread.
if you don't like it, tough. . .

hmmm. Everyone who posts here on MB is the "sane" spouse...the one who is "right" and has values. The one not posting is evil incarnate. Not buying it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by TheStudent:
hmmm. Everyone who posts here on MB is the "sane" spouse...the one who is "right" and has values. The one not posting is evil incarnate. Not buying it.<hr></blockquote>My shrink said "problems are not so much with people as between people". I've never claimed any particular monopoly on sanity.Our thinking can be illogical, or can logically proceed from the wrong premises. Or can simply be bereft of the creativity that solves our problem. That is what friends and wise counsellors are for.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by TheStudent:
hmmm. Everyone who posts here on MB is the "sane" spouse...the one who is "right" and has values. <hr></blockquote>Exactly!!! I've been thinking that for the longest time and I'm glad that someone finally had the gall to stand up and say it.. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Calm down people I'm just adding a little bit of humor but I do believe that since most of us are BS's that it could be a topic worth discussing.

While we,the BS,may be insane as well,perhaps we are a little less insane....
the question I must ask is this......
When the ow is only part of the scenario,but all previous values, morals, behaviour and sensibility which existed in one's spouse as the co-parent of ones children is not there any more, but has completely turned 180 degrees....so that the adult parent becomes the adolescent....only with the money and power to "prove" to the children that his way of life is the path to follow and all previous shared values and morals are for naught,should one question his sanity?