willbok,<p>thanks for your comments, i realize that you are in the same position as i am.<p>the personality comment that struck me as being very relevant, by my X, is that she said that the future is irrelevant to her. she only lives in the present. Well, does one's choices not have an effect on the future? or if you don't look ahead, do you not prevent problems? i mean if you only do what feels good today, you could be setting yourself up for problems tomorrow, which you then have to solve with alot more effort and hassle, right?<p>does one not have to live the present as the result of past decisions? (the other view, but same concept?) <p>that is the personality stuff that gripes me, since i see the implications of certain decisions, and X see nothing. . . . and the results are the effects on the kids. . . . basically, i was told i shouldn't be "pushing the kids", and this by a childhood education major, and then when the school guildelines came out, i was doing everything the school guidelines were suggesting. . .<p>i guess i am hurting for doing the right stuff as i see it and as have been suggested by schools, and then get criticized in front of the kids, and it sets up the dad is bad, wrong mentality which i see/feel . . .<p>ok, ok counseling!<p>i will go.<p>tom

I must have unlearned the art of flirting. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Because I still don't have your phone number. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Anne

Tom,<p>I don't think TR meant specific rules. I think she meant controlling in other ways.<p>You do seem to cut down everyone in your spouses life, I think you need to stop and look at the anger you have.<p>I am glad you are going to counseling and take your children. Listent to the counselor Tom.<p>Take care,<p>ANNA

i guess i need to understand in what the other ways i am controlling?<p>i need suggestions. . . . as far as money goes, one could say that, but then i say, if you agree to POJA, no one is controlling, but if you don't agree on POJA, then you can have a controlling spouse. . .<p>Hmmm, if one is a conflict avoider then the other spouse is automatically a controlling spouse??<p>i guess i need help with this. . . i do stand up for what i believe is not correct. . . . is that controlling? if i explain my rational, is that not open and honest and communication??<p>I was talking with a friend of mine, and she said that i haven't had enough time yet, that i still need to process (heal) through the emotions of a long term marriage ending. . . and so i am still too newly minted as a divorcee to be considered a healthy person. . . .<p>oh, and one last thing, i made a requirement in my house that in order for #1 son to get to go out with his friends overnight, that he needed to have his homework all turned in for two months. i am controlling aren't i? however, it was attached to a reward, and yesterday we had parent teacher conferences, and his grades were very high and the teachers were very impressed that he had 100 % on his homework. last year he did not, and was not even close, in fact after last year, i did not think he would be able to be accepted. now, he has changed my view. is it me or him? (both is my answer!)<p>you know, there is some merit to having achievable expectations and some rewards. . . and the X and i used to argue about that. . . she did not believe in any rewards, it is to be expected. . . and you give them what they want and you will get the behavior you expect. . . <p>i am always baffled at certain behaviors and logic, i guess i just don't get it.<p>more counseling needed!!!<p>tom<p>oh, and anne, (978) 555 - 1212
ask for me by name!!!! (seriously)

tom,<p>I and I am sure no one else is saying everything you do in your life is controlling. I am sure there are positive things you do that are good.<p>However, throughout all your post I do see you trying to control.<p>The one thing I don't think you are addressing is the issue of feeling like you are smarter than everyone around you. This is pushing people you love away from you.<p>Take care,<p>ANNA

Tom,<p>I agree kids need rules..and I whole heartly support that...but you never said anything in your posts about "rules" just that they don't agree..with your way..<p>My son prefers to go to his dad's because dad doesn't have "rules" and he can get away with things..the girls get away with more over there
too, but they don't like his trying to control them..(there is a difference) <p>And yes, the counselor agreed that the kids prefer to live w/ out rules..wouldn't you?? If you could do whatever you pleased and get away with it?? <p>Maybe it's the way in which you present yourself..
as in being aggressive..and not being assertive..they are completely different things..
so maybe it's that the way you talk to them it sounds like your being aggressive..and controlling..and not being assertive..to get your point across..just a thought...<p>But, I really wasn't meaning to offend..the way I read what you wrote it sounded controlling..<p>and maybe your rules could be negotated..sit down with them and ask them their thoughts on it..and discuss them..I did this with my kids..they came up with some stiffer punishments than I would have..and we wrote them down..and thats what we go by...

But i don't feel as though i am smarter than everyone around me. I certainly acknowledge when someone else has a valid point, and certanly will adopt it if it is better than any other viewpoint i have had up until now. I feel that i listen to everyone, but at a certain point, i decide for myself. Anna, you were taught that, right? do you consider that to be feeling smarter than everyone else?<p>now that doesn't mean i will always agree with you, i won't, but i can always back up my decision or point of view with reason why I pick it.<p>Now, if i don't feel i am smarter than everyone else, i am fairly successful with my way, for me anyway, and i have always shared my way with others, and the reasons so there is always a logic behind my decisions or opinions. <p>why do people think/feel that I think/feel i am smarter than everyone else? isn't that projection?<p>and i know that there are degrees of control. I don't try to control as much as people assume, i try to encourage with my reasons of how to get towards their goal. i have my way and my reasons, because they have been successful for me. is that control?<p>That's why i ask for why one sees me as controlling. Is controlling pushy? i have been known to be pushy? meaning, I don't always take no for an answer, especially the first time. I hold people to my interpreting my words plainly, and not adding some personal interpretation. . .
I don't always let faulty logic go on as faulty. . . <p>so how is one controlling? to disagree with a spouse should not be considered controlling, to say someone else should not do something because of my fears is controlling. . . and i don't believe i do this. . .<p>so how am i perceived as controlling? seriously. . .<p>WIFTTy

WIFTY,<p>In the past you and I have disagreed on a number of issues, mostly because my parenting style is more like your ex-wife's than like yours - but I think it is inappropriate to call you "controlling." You and your ex-wife have different parenting styles - but that doesn't mean either is wrong. <p>I think it says a lot for the quality and openness of your relationship with your kids if they aren't scared to tell you that you are acting like a jerk if they think you are. If they stop arguing with you, then you should worry. <p>I think it is entirely reasonable to question why someone who can afford a brand new SUV on steroids would apply for a scholarship. <p>BTW, I think both the Suburban and the Expedition are yuppie cars - real men (and women) drive Ford trucks. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

You may find this difficult to believe, but I agree that something's fishy.<p>My ex, who was bemoaning the fact that he had no money for food, suddenly bought himself a 2001 Silverado - what's that, like $25,000 or so?<p>No, it's none of my beezwax really, but hey, I'm nosey, and I'm broke, so it kinda sorta gets under my craw.<p>And as far as your original question - - I think there's such a thing as tooooo much SUV, and both of them qualify. I mean, unless you have the Brady Bunch riding in there, who needs that kind of room?

Okay, Let me try and rephrase some of the questions so that you might answer them..and not ask more questions..<p>WIFTTy- I took that very seriously, and in 10 years, we got there, and then I was accused of being rich, of wanting to live in our own house, of making X feel bad with my successes. <p>TR-1)do you think that maybe you "implied" what you did was "more" important than what she did??<p>2)What specifically did she say that made you feel as if she was "accusing" you of being rich?<p>WIFTTy- And to top it off, i asked her what i did at my job, and she said she didn't know (after almost 10 years of doing it, and doing it with her once for her volunteer job!) ok, ok, the fog was so thick that her internal radar was not working!<p>TR- I understand that your upset that she doesn't know what you do for a living..but doing it once with her doesn't mean she understands what it is you do..is it something you talked about and took the time to explain it to her?<p>
WIFTTy- i guess i really wish i knew why she decided that this course of action is the best, but she refuses to answer the question, nor is she very willing to share the kids with me.<p>TR- What is she doing that is preventing you from spending time with your kids? And what specifically are you doing to make sure you have a relationship with your kids?<p>
WIFTTy-basically, i am still emotionally attached through the kids because i have to accept what i don't understand, or refuse to understand, or can't believe happened to me.<p>TR- which is it? are you refusing to understand?
I don't think many ppl here believe it's happening to them either..but it is a reality that eventually has to be faced..<p>WIFTTy- This week, X and I and our oldest son interviewed for admissions to the school where i went, where I lived for almost 20 years and X has taught at for 20 years. Seeing all the "old teachers that i coached with and lived with, etc." that i used to have was weird. very weird, alot of them did not want to talk to me, but were very nice to our son.<p>TR- What was 'weird' about it? that they seemed to ignore you? <p>WIFTTy- It also pisses me off that the values passed to our kids is totally inconsistent, totally scrambled, and totally incomprehensible. And the values we espoused together to the kids are then sabotaged by her actions. <p>TR- 1) Are you sure she even shared the same values you do? <p>2)or did you assume she shared the same values?

WIFTTy- because i see her personality more and more in our kids, and i hate the "new" personality that they are slowly adopting. <p>TR-1) Why do you "hate" this 'new' personality so much??
2) Is it because they have a different personality than you?
3) Are you sure it's a new personality and not just something you have ignored?<p>WIFTTy-so i constantly "feel" as though i am still being criticized through the kids for being adventurous, knowledgable, for having met or known lots of different people, for being successful at several different areas in my life.<p>TR- What specifically have they said that makes you feel they are critizing you?<p>WIFTTy-so i constantly feel everything i stood for, hard working, knoweldge seeking, adventurous, interested in lots of different stuff, good at athletics and coaching, and knowing how to plan and follow a plan, is just being trashed totally, and that i feel my relationship with my kids just went down hill completely after easter weekend last year, and has been very antagonistic ever since.<p>TR- They can't make you 'feel' anything..those are your feelings from inside you..so why do you feel that everything you value is being trashed?<p>What happened Easter weekend last year that you think may have caused the rift in your relationship with your kids?<p>WIFTTy-and i don't understand why or what i did so that my kids constantly attack me all the time.<p>TR- What do they say to you when you feel they are
attacking you? <p>And have you gone to your kids and asked them what you've said or done that makes them feel the way they do? Not going through mom..but asking them personally?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:
<strong><p>so how am i perceived as controlling? seriously. .
WIFTTy</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Wiftty,<p>I know you are wondering where I or others are getting these. Some came from this thread and then there are other post...<p>I am going to try very hard to explain my opinion with some quotes of your post. I went back and copied some of the these.<p>I know your world has been turned up side down the last year and I think you are so angry and bitter you really need to stop and see things that you saying. Also, again, I am glad you are going to get counseling for you and your children.<p>You said these things,<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
yet, she refused to talk about money, did not want to understand our investments, and because she works with the very liberal minded, public
service mentality and the poor me teacher attitudes, she feels justified in her actions.<hr></blockquote><p>I have heard you say similar things about her job as a teacher.<p>Through your post you seem to think of highly of money and job prestige. There is nothing wrong with your wife not thinking in a different way. It sounds like you criticizing her for having this "public service mentality and poor me teacher attitudes." <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
She refuses to apologize for being rude, refuses to apologize for being uncooperative and not following her agreements. Yes, i am tough with
her, and strict with the kids, but this is for their own good, since noone in her family was ever strict or structured, nor is she, someone has to.<hr></blockquote><p>Perhaps she doesn't think she was rude or uncooperative, perhaps this is just your own thinking. If that's the case, you were trying to control her by being more cooperative and seeing your side.<p>"Tough with her". Are you her father? Sounds controlling to me.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
Her current OM is the opposite of my intellectualism, sports oriented, adventurous persona. He is basically marginally educated and can be easily controlled, like my XMIL controls my XFIL. (BTW, my XFIL has a Yale Masters degree, and talks with the intellect of a 15 year old to make my XMIL feel smart and dominate over him. and he shakes hands like a woman. UGH!)
<hr></blockquote><p>So, you are basically saying her new boyfriend is dumb and can be controlled??? Are you saying a person marginally educated can be controlled?<p>You are also judging her parents relationship. Even though it works for them. <p>Even though XFIL has a Yale Master degree you think he has the intellect of a 15 year old. <p>You seem to also be saying MIL is dumb too.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
I however, am not a conflict avoider, but a conflict resolver. In the end, i realized that nothing would change, and our relationship would only exist if the relationship was similar to my XIL's which are perfectly co-dependent, never talk feelings, only weather and traffic and kid and teacher jobs. no real world stuff. i pointed out where they were totally wrong, could physically see the evidence that they were wrong, and then they refused to talk to me any more.<hr></blockquote><p>What are you saying? You actually went to her parents and told them where they were wrong. You pointed this out to them and then they too refused to talk to you anymore. <p>This just sounds like now you were trying to control her parents also.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
She said her friends (who lot of them were having affairs at the time) told her she should divorce me, and join them (the ones that couldn't
escape from their own town and their own ineptness.)<hr></blockquote><p>So, her friends are all dumb and foolish too because they didn't escape their own town????<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I now am pretty confident that she has a combination of OCD, BPD and NPD.<hr></blockquote><p>You are saying FIL, MIL and daughter all has one or more personality disorders???? Somewhere in another post you say Grandmother in law has a personality disorder to You are not a psychologist and yet you have made this diagnosis on the whole family????<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
even though son says he is an INTP, he is given so much freedom and little responsibility, he appears to have the makings of the Narcissism
also, and he does not like getting along with me, as it is much tougher, although more adventurous, more independently responsible.
<hr></blockquote><p>Now, your son is also starting to show signs of Narcissism too??? Is this just because he doesn't get along with you too?
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
I'm sure both of wives were/are very physically appealing to the eyes..which was a big part of the initial attraction..yet, they lacked the
conversational skills that you both require for a fullfilling relationship..and when you tried to change that in them,(ie:challenging them to think
deeper about a subject,and not just give a standard response), they began to fight for control in other areas of the relationship..to gain what would seem to them a more equal footing within the marriage.. <hr></blockquote><p>It's the way you word this. It sounds here like you think you are smarter than your wife, just because she thinks and responds differently from you.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
Nope, you see, we were a good match until i decided to grow up and become whom i wanted to be. that was career oriented, and after i got
my MBA, and started working, everything was still ok, but then i got my executive position, and then the X got threatened, partly because i had a
hard time putting up with the stupid routine. . . and there are lots of more variables which precipitated her MLC, but let me say, i am the one
without all the personality disorders, and without the foo issues that she learned. and i grew up more, and demanded more from her, and
she couldn't give it, and refused to acknowledge that she needed to grow up. . . .
<hr></blockquote><p>I can see where she would be upset with your attitude. You seem to use words like stupid, ignorant and so forth when it comes to the things she does or she says. Also, I think she was more upset by all the hours you worked. I read in a post you worked something like 10 hours a day, I think 6 or 7 days a week. Is that right? You said she complained about her needs. I would too.<p>Then, you said you demanded more from her. That sounds controlling to me.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
I lived with someone like you, my X, and she LBed all the time, even tonight, as I fixed her computer so our son could submit his pumpkin
photograph to a contest, <p>She has had a color printer for a year. I asked her a simple question:<p>me: "Have you ever used photographic paper in it?"
her: "I don't have a digital camera to use."
me: "you can get pictures through email to print, as well as from the internet"
Her: "You didn't tell me I had to get photographic paper."<p>I asked a simple yes or no question. She couldn't say "No." she couldn't admit to being ignorant, naieve, or whatever the fear of not being in control or right is described. . . . (whatever f****** disorder she has at the moment!)
<hr></blockquote><p>I have read about the anger you had over this incident in a few post. First, with the way you feel about your x and the things you say about her, I would think she would be on the defensive with you all the time. Second, you are trying to control her words with what you want her to say instead of what she wants to say. You are not in court, you are not a lawyer saying "ANSWER THE QUESTION, YES OR NO". She also may have just been thinking she didn't have the correct paper for the project and since you were the one helping the son she wished you would have told her to get it. Whatever she was thinking this was so minor, and sounds like control to me.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
instead she chose to project her responsibility on me. I have discussed this LB with her, given her examples of how to talk correctly, told how how it made me feel, blah, blah, blah, it made no difference. . . <hr></blockquote><p>Again, controlling her words and even giving her examples on talking correctly. Sounds like you are the one Lbing. Control!
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
just lectured the X on how she needs to parent the children so that they don't become like her. . . . although I never said the "become like you"
part, but she got the point. She couldn't disagree, and she admits that I just make her mad, (usually because i disagree with her, and most
times, I am righter than she is . . . because she never had real parents, she never learned how to show, she just learned how to teach by
lecture.)
<hr></blockquote><p>WOW, CONTROL!<p>Righter? You think you are more correct than she is most of the time. I can see where she would be upset with your opinion. <p>How would you like it if she came to you and lectured you indicating to be careful not to let the children grow up to be like you? Big LB.<p>Tom, we all need improvement in our lives. We all need to see where we can better ourselves. I hope you will take some of the things I said and reevaluate the anger and control issues you have.<p>I am not saying she doesn't have problems or doesn't have control issues too. Also I am not saying everything you do is controlling. However, you can not change her. You can only look at the things you are doing and change you. As for all your post it seems like you are soul searching, the only problem is you are searching her's and everyone in her life, instead of your's.<p>Take care and good luck,<p>ANNA<p>[ November 17, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

WIFTTy-1) and the answer is: i don't like being citicized for making a loving suggestion for her (it was her car) and then she goes and about does the same suggestion. <p>TR- What loving suggestion did you make about her car? And what makes you say she took the suggestion on as her own?<p>WIFTTy-2) i don't like being complained about for an expert's opinion, just because it disagrees with their point. <p>TR- could you explain this?<p>WIFTTy- is the kids' behavior not the "shoot the messenger" behavior that most people dislike? is that the behavior you think i should support?<p>TR-What was the message that you feel they shot you for? And what exactly did they say or do that triggered these feelings inside you?<p>WIFTTy-so shoot the dad because he personally asked? never mind that it was an expert? since we can't tear down experts, we tear down messengers?<p>TR- huh?? I think I understand what you are saying here..but I want to be sure..so correct me if I am wrong..okay? <p>I believe your talking about your saying you met Carl Sagan..and you were sharing this info with them..but..had your kids asked a question about him, or what he thought? or did you just think it was pertitant to the conversation you were having?<p>And how specifically did they tear you down?<p>WIFTTy- X does not support counseling, and the kids pick up on it, and complain to me "making them go." X said in the beginning, at the time of separation, that the kids won't need counseling, just like she would only need 3 sessions for her.<p>TR- well, she may honestly feel she doesn't need "counseling" a lot of ppl feel that way..<p>WIFTTy-and when we did go, the counselor supported the kids position that they are happiest when they get to do anything they want.<p>TR- LOL..Like I said before..aren't we all happiest when we get to do whatever we want??<p>WIFTTy-so i refuse to turn over my house to the kids' rules. sorry, that i have a control problem. I will post the house rules after i get them written up for them. Then post them here for review.<p>TR- Actually I don't let my kids run the house either..rules are a good thing for kids..(if they weren't would the schools also have them??)<p>WIFTTy-in the application, one of the questions is: what are your jobs and responsibilities? the only ones listed were at my house and required and suggested by me. funny, that is what the school is looking for, kids who have structure and responsibility so they can make a smooth transition to the school.<p>TR- Don't mean to be nosy..but what type of school is this? I understand it's a private school..but is it a military school?<p>
WIFTTy-so yes, i will head to counseling, and will try to find a very good local counselor, and start with the kids as a new year's resolution. if for no other reason than to get them to have a decent relationship with me. <p>TR- And you should go for you..not just so that you have a better relationship with your kids..but because it will help you..<p>WIFFty-and you know, yes, i want to turn out responsible, mentally healthy kids, and if that is a control issue, then i guess i have a control issue, in that i am trying to make them responsible for themselves at my house, and they get it, and do it, and just complain about it constantly, which i find very disturbing, instead of respecting me, and trying to abide, they go the complaining route, which gets them more difficulty. <p>TR- I want the same thing for my kids..and from my kids...but you can't force them not to complain..
all kids complain. <p>WIFTTy- and then they complain about it to X and X suggests that they stay with her. (i guess that is conflict avoidance support?? or is it disrespect for authority??)<p>TR- Actually its called playing one parent against the other..another thing all kids do..especially if they know one of them will support them..<p>it's like them coming and asking you if they can have ice cream and they haven't had dinner yet, so you say no..then they go ask mom, and instead of mom saying have you asked your dad? what did he say? then back what dad said..NO, she just says yes..<p>The way I personally handle things like this when my kids come home complaining about things at dad's house..I ask them..have you discussed this with him? I get the "well, no," And I say, "well, that is his house, and if you have a problem with something that goes on there, then you need to discuss that with him, and until you can sit down and talk to him about what it is that is bothering you..then it will stay that way"<p>But, from the sounds of it your spouse isn't like that..mine isn't either..my son gets in trouble here and he calls dad and says he wants to go live w/ him..(and dad plays that) son would do the same thing when he was at dad's..he'd get in trouble there and call me asking me to come get him..I'd ask him..what did he get in trouble for?? because I know the game he plays..and he gets mad and hangs up the phone because I don't play into the game..and just say okay..I'll come get you..so stbx just lets him run wild..and do whatever he wants and just gives in to him..because he doesn't want to be the bad guy..
Prime example-
son had asked one night if a friend could spend the night w/ him at his dad's- his dad said no..
because the last time this friend stayed the night they were to wild- so son hung up on him..and went storming to his room..dad called back asking to speak to son..and told him..okay his friend can stay the night..son got his way..(he's only 6 years old, and has learned how to manipulate his dad to get his way) just as it sounds like your kids are doing to their mom..<p>But, don't take things like that personally..and realize that they are going to say things that are hurtful to you..because you set down rules for them..it's the nature of parenting..but, your right in that you do not have to except that disrespect from your kids..<p>Something you could say..when they start with the MOM doesn't make us do this..or whatever the catch phrase of the day is..<p>"I understand that, and thats okay, but this is my house, and I have certain rules that I wish to be respected while you are here, if your mother chooses not to have those same rules well, thats okay, it's her house" <p>it's not disrespectful towards her..and it sets boundries at your home..

When...<p>You have got to be freeking kidding me! Your relationship is in jepardy right now and you are asking this question???? <p>Please get your priorities straight and work on your relationship with your spouse and children! <p>Guess what!!!! No one gives a damn what kind of car you drive, and if its that important to them, they are not good friends!<p>PRIORITIES FIRST!<p>Bryan [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

WIFTTy-
oh, and one last thing, i made a requirement in my house that in order for #1 son to get to go out with his friends overnight, that he needed to have his homework all turned in for two months. i am controlling aren't i? however, it was attached to a reward, and yesterday we had parent teacher conferences, and his grades were very high and the teachers were very impressed that he had 100 % on his homework. last year he did not, and was not even close, in fact after last year, i did not think he would be able to be accepted. now, he has changed my view. is it me or him? (both is my answer!)<p>TR- Actually I think the two months is a bit much..but, thats just my opinion..something that happened w/ me and my daughter was quite the same here..she didn't do her homework..and I quit forcing her to do it because it was always a struggle..I couldn't keep her grounded for ever..
She's in Jr High...she knows she has homework..she knows when it's due..so I wouldn't say anything about it..she failed..her teachers suggested summer school..I said, No! She didn't want to do the work this year..she can go back through it again next year..why should I have to take off from work and lose pay to get her to and from school?? Why should I have to suffer for her lack of responsibility?? I shouldn't..this year..she has one of the same teachers who failed her last year..and she's making A's in his class..as a matter of fact..she's on the A/B honor roll this year..and she's actually paying attention and learning..she's not mad at me..because she realizes that she was the one who failed because she didn't do the assignments..and she's becoming more responsible..in other areas as well..<p>WIFTTy-you know, there is some merit to having achievable expectations and some rewards. . . and the X and i used to argue about that. . . she did not believe in any rewards, it is to be expected. . . and you give them what they want and you will get the behavior you expect. <p>TR- I agree w/ you here..if the reward fits the behavior..but there are some things..that should just be given..and not expected to have a price tag (reward) attached to them..<p>WIFTTy-i am always baffled at certain behaviors and logic, i guess i just don't get it.<p>TR- I think we all are sometimes..

Anna, <p>One of the things that you posted about the wives being physically appealing to the eyes..WiFTTY didn't say...I said that..in how "I" perceived his relationship with his wife..<p>Just wanted to make that correction...

WIFTTy,<p>It not only sounds controlling..but condesending..<p>Look back at your posts and how you spoke to her - you talked down to her..like she's not as good as you..and that is condesending..<p>And from the sounds of it..you talk to your children, and your xil's the same way..and yes,
they quit talking to you..because nobody likes to be talked down to..

Anna,<p>1) we made in the six figures together, had a second beach house with a mortage of $350 per month, no mortgage, heating, or electric bills at the first house (employer provided) and only a food bill, and she told me that she didn't want the beach house because she didn't want to appear rich, but then fell in love with a better, closer to beach house in a private area. We tried to sell ours to get that one, and it sold just before ours sold, and she spend the whole day crying because we sold our house. . . I held her, tried to comfort her, and then 6 months later, she told me, "I never wanted another beach house again. . . been there, done that. . ." Anna, i can't keep up with the feelings, they were changing all the time. . . and they still do, and she appeared to me to be a "Do as i say, now, not as i act" <p>and to top it off, she said that she didn't want to be rich, (and we are not! add two low middle class salaries together and you get a high middle class salary) because poor people get more sympathy! <p>2) i didn't want to be the only one controlling the money, i wanted it to be a joint responsibility. She gave me $10,000 out of her savings account, and told me vewry sternly, "I want statements, and updates." I wanted her to be informed. She never asked for a statement or an update, and when I talked to her about it, she just said, "You're in charge, i don't understand it anyway and don't want to. " She told me once that she couldn't call the investment company to make an investment, even if i wrote down what to say, she refused, (for fear of being wrong) even with the information in front of her. <p>Isn't a good relationship when you discuss all aspects of your life together? isn't it not controlling to want the other spouse to be informed? Otherwise I would be controlling?? NO?<p>Oh, and both X and I agreed that her parents had a poor relationship. X told me she refused to have relationship like her parents. Xused to comment on the same points i made here, everything I have said here was mostly agreed to by X. <p>And one day, i sat down with her dad, and talked to him about how X wanted a better relationship and how X wanted it to be better. . . .<p>And another day, XILs came to our house, and X ran upstairs, crying, complaining that her parents would walking into house with no one home, sit down and when we came home, would ask "what's for dinner?" this upset X so much, that I stood up for my W against her parents, threw her parents out, politely, and then our relationship with them was very respectful. . . and X liked the new relationship with her parents, and so I stood up for her, and stuff got better. <p>you see, more to come later, I did as much as i could for her, when she spoke up and talked to me, <p>oh, and read my personal email to you, her hours were longer than mine, and unpaid, and yet, i was criticized for being rich because i was paid for mine, and she wasn't.<p>Oh, you miss one very important point, in the beginning, her projection of her feelings onto me, and i refuse to accept responsibility for her feelings. <p>So the $64,000 question: does one dumb oneself down if your spouse says, "Your success makes me feel inadequate?" cannot success be shared? is it not ego that one has to feel right all the time?<p>X said to me, "I want to be right!" well, marriage is a system of action and interaction, and not one just being right, which is control in my book. <p>And control is not asking an informational answer, otherwise I could not ask any questions, NO? my problem with the computer situation was her not answering the questions, but blaming or projecting her feeling inadequate for not knowing onto me, after asking a simple informational question.<p>How would you feel if you asked your H: "Honey, did you happen to get any milk while you were at the grocery store?" and the answer was "You didn't tell me i had to." <p>be back later?? you know, if i can't ask informational questions, which she told me more than once, "don't ask me questions i have to say no to." and all through the beginning of the relationship she said "Ask me for my opinion, don't assume you know what's best for me." <p>so my points are, I can't keep up with all the constantly changing requirements, feelings, etc, to the point where I can't ask anything without being complained to or projected onto as my fault.
This behavior is controlling behavior, it is not communicative not loving, in my opinion. . . .<p>Have to play with the kids, will be back soon.

wiftty,<p>I am going to respond quickly because I have to go.<p>You continually try to take the focus off the things you need to improve in your communication with others by justifing wrong actions with things you that are correct in doing. Everyone of us do correct things as well as wrong things. <p>Also you justify your actions by saying the things she did wrong. You could write a book on here on everything you did right and everything she did wrong. However this would not help you improve your communication and the way you are handling the people in your life. It is so obvious you need to make changes in your life before you lose your children's respect totally. Instead of seeing this you are debating the issue by putting in all these other irrevelent things. <p>Focus on the things I said to you and TR is saying to you and try to make changes here, instead of focussing on "but I did this and this was correct". <p>You never admit any of the things you do need to be changed or could be the way you are appraoching things.<p>It is obvious now to me, you are not going to "get it". This is not about changing your wife, this is about changing you. <p>I see you losing everyone in your life that you love if you don't make some changes in your life on approaching the people you love. Then you can be correct, be the smartest and be the best all by yourself.<p>Again, I am glad you are going to try family counseling.<p>Now regarding your questions how would I feel when your wife came home and you said, "Did you get milk?" and your wife said, "You didn't tell me to get milk." My husband has said this same thing to me and I did respond in the same way mainly because over the years I have said "No" and then I get a lecture on how I should have remembered the milk..... However, my husband "got" what I was telling him, it did not rub my husband wrong, he started making me a list before I left. So, your wife is assuming your next comment. Now, the bottom line of this is "What does it really matter, so she didn't answer you with a "no" and respond the way you wanted her to, this again is so MINOR, all you needed to say was "ok, I'll make a list for next time or run to the store myself." I think this is very controlling on your part, she is cutting you off at the path, because she knows you are going to lecture her with a "no" answer. This is why it is so annoying to you too, because she took your opporunity to lecture her away.<p>As for the investment issues. There is absolutely nothing wrong with one person being more stronger in this area than her. She left this up to you. Absolutely nothing wrong with this but you wanted to control her and make her want it to be as important in her life as your life. That is control.<p>There are things she did wrong in the marriage Tom, your MIL and FIL may have had there problems too. It was your place to have them leave your house when they made your wife upset, however, it was not your place to go to them and point out what they are doing wrong in their own lives, this was going over the boundaries of relationships with people. You can not change any of these people, you can only change yourself and how you communicate. <p>Again, stop trying to address their issues and address the problems TR and I pointed out through these post. <p>Did I say this was going to be quick???? Sheesh I should have known better. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>
Take care and good luck,<p>ANNA

TR- What loving suggestion did you make about her car? And what makes you say she took the suggestion on as her own?<p>WIFTTy - "since you don't like the car, lets go look at new ones." i like suburbans at the time, still do. after projecting her dilike of suburbans onto me, she is buying a look alike.<p>TR- could you explain this?<p>Yes, i countered their statement with a statement to the contrary with an experts opinion, that i happened to have met. then they shifted the conversation to criticizing me for "always" saying that you know these famous people. How does that change in topic keep the conversation going? does it not attack the messenger? why should you put someone down in tone for a fact?<p>TR-What was the message that you feel they shot you for? And what exactly did they say or do that triggered these feelings inside you?<p>TR- huh?? I think I understand what you are saying here..but I want to be sure..so correct me if I am wrong..okay?<p>I believe your talking about your saying you met Carl Sagan..and you were sharing this info with them..but..had your kids asked a question about him, or what he thought? or did you just think it was pertitant to the conversation you were having?<p>And how specifically did they tear you down?<p>that i met the expert. in a disrespectful tone, "Dad, how come you always say you know these people?" technicality, I have met them personally, and asked them diretly for a direct answer. no misinterpretation, no interpretation. then they brought up a point that i made years ago, that one of college underclass men that lived across the hall from me was part of Mel Fisher's underwater recovery team from the Atocia. so how does that follow in the conversation about the universe? sounds like looking to put down to me. why bring up something from the past again that is irrelevant to the conversation at hand?<p>TR- well, she may honestly feel she doesn't need "counseling" a lot of ppl feel that way..<p>WIFTTy - well, everyone here is telling me, and i tried, but must find a better counselor, that i should get it for myself and the kids. . . i have gone before and am not afraid to go again. so my suggestion was to her also, and she denied every needing it. <p>TR- LOL..Like I said before..aren't we all happiest when we get to do whatever we want??<p>WIFTTy - point being, he did nothing except relay to me what i already knew.<p>TR- Actually I don't let my kids run the house either..rules are a good thing for kids..(if they weren't would the schools also have them??)<p>WIFTTy - I just sent them to their rooms just now with not following the rules for a third time, and 9 yo d said she would only cooperate if i asked nicely. (which i did three times)<p>TR- Don't mean to be nosy..but what type of school is this? I understand it's a private school..but is it a military school?<p>nope, top liberal arts boarding school in the NE.<p>TR- And you should go for you..not just so that you have a better relationship with your kids..but because it will help you..<p>WIFTTy - other things will also help, mostly my surroundings. . . .<p>TR- I want the same thing for my kids..and from my kids...but you can't force them not to complain..
all kids complain.<p>WIFTTy - yes, but what they complain about is very tine, insignificant stuff, such that they are learning to make mountains out of molehills. . . <p>TR- Actually its called playing one parent against the other..another thing all kids do..especially if they know one of them will support them..<p>it's like them coming and asking you if they can have ice cream and they haven't had dinner yet, so you say no..then they go ask mom, and instead of mom saying have you asked your dad? what did he say? then back what dad said..NO, she just says yes..<p>The way I personally handle things like this when my kids come home complaining about things at dad's house..I ask them..have you discussed this with him? I get the "well, no," And I say, "well, that is his house, and if you have a problem with something that goes on there, then you need to discuss that with him, and until you can sit down and talk to him about what it is that is bothering you..then it will stay that way"<p>But, from the sounds of it your spouse isn't like that..mine isn't either..my son gets in trouble here and he calls dad and says he wants to go live w/ him..(and dad plays that) son would do the same thing when he was at dad's..he'd get in trouble there and call me asking me to come get him..I'd ask him..what did he get in trouble for?? because I know the game he plays..and he gets mad and hangs up the phone because I don't play into the game..and just say okay..I'll come get you..so stbx just lets him run wild..and do whatever he wants and just gives in to him..because he doesn't want to be the bad guy..
Prime example-
son had asked one night if a friend could spend the night w/ him at his dad's- his dad said no..
because the last time this friend stayed the night they were to wild- so son hung up on him..and went storming to his room..dad called back asking to speak to son..and told him..okay his friend can stay the night..son got his way..(he's only 6 years old, and has learned how to manipulate his dad to get his way) just as it sounds like your kids are doing to their mom..<p>But, don't take things like that personally..and realize that they are going to say things that are hurtful to you..because you set down rules for them..it's the nature of parenting..but, your right in that you do not have to except that disrespect from your kids..<p>Something you could say..when they start with the MOM doesn't make us do this..or whatever the catch phrase of the day is..<p>"I understand that, and thats okay, but this is my house, and I have certain rules that I wish to be respected while you are here, if your mother chooses not to have those same rules well, thats okay, it's her house"<p>it's not disrespectful towards her..and it sets boundries at your home..<p>WIFTTy - they just started in on me questioning why i can say there are rules here in my house. . . so i used your answer, and they started to get it. But what i get upset with, is the same battle starting all over again each time to the same conclusion.<p>later. . .

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:
<strong>So i need help, which car is the rich person's car, and which car is the working person's car?</strong><hr></blockquote>Suburban is old money. Expedition is old money, or tasteful new money. Navigator is old money or gauche, garish new money. Escalade is hip-hop thugs (note the gigantic rear crest on the new one) or people who just have to have a locomotive with a Corvette engine.