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Well, she's filed, I've counterfiled. <p>Whew.<p>While trading e-mails about visitation, this comes out. I'm not sure why I'm posting this, maybe looking for a little peace.<p> Of course, I've known about this guy for two years.<p>Me:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I am attempting to negotiate with you, to find a solution we can both live with. The only reason I can see for your anger is that I have chosen to discuss rather than comply.
Where is the compromise from you? You are making demands, not participating in a discussion or attempting to find a mutual solution. You stated you were interested in what was best for the children, yet the above suggests it's about you? <p>As far as the focus being on me, I have been lied to, and lied to some more, and manipulated for years. I did everything I could think of to give you what you wanted, to let you know you were loved. I got stomped. I am not trying to be mean, or make things difficult, but work out a schedule with you. <p>
I'm not sure what "level of cooperation" I would be able to expect from someone who believes in dating others during marriage. Repeatedly. This is not "bending over backwards", this is about, and has usually been about, control. About hiding your real agenda and attempting to position me to comply with your demands without complaint or discussion. <p>
I will not comply with your demands. I will participate in discussions about mutual solutions that work for the family.[\Quote]<p>Her Response:<p>[Quote]Hope you feel good after "venting" Dan-No matter what you say to me, I can finally look myself in the mirror and know that I an true to myself and to God now. I am not lying anymore to myself or you and never want to do that again....

I also do not think that your father's house is a good place for the kids to stay over night for any length of time and I will talk to my attorney about that.
The visitation schedule, as it stands, is all you- Nothing that I wanted entered in to it. It was a compromise on my part 100%.
As for "lying during our marriage" I say- What marriage? The marriage where you were non-participatory except to tell me when I was doing something you didn't like.
You made my life hell for the past ten years with your anger and insecurities when I didn't deserve that. You wanted to control me and the only way you could was to be angry and have me follow you around like a puppy dog saying "what did I do now? Please tell me why you are mad Dan". You had issues with anger and never addressed your issues.
I hope for your sake you don't remain angry for the rest of your life Dan. Life is to short and precious.
With Pxxx, I finally found someone who I can laugh with and it's all "easy". Nothing is difficult with him. That is why we hang together-Pure and simple. It's just easy. I am allowed to be who I am. It's just easy.
I begged you for that for years...and I mean years. So I don't want to hear it. You alone had the power to make our marriage work. I told you Pxxx and I are great friends and thank God I have him. I need good friends, especially now.<hr></blockquote><p>Whew. I really loved her. Still do. Where does this come from? <p> Non - participatory? Angry? I made my share of mistakes, but I don't get this... it doesn't desrcibe ME!<p> I am ,and loved being, a Family Man. I cooked, cleaned, laundried and loved. Throughout.<p>Anyway, thanks to all for support during a very tough year.<p>Dan<p>[ May 28, 2002: Message edited by: Family Man ]</p>

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> The only reason I can see for your anger is that I have chosen to discuss rather than comply. Where is the compromise from you? You are making demands, not participating in a discussion or attempting to find a mutual solution. You stated you were interested in what was best for the children, yet the above suggests it's about you? <hr></blockquote><p>All DISRESPECTFUL JUDGEMENTS!!!!<p>i would be set off also. . . in negotiations, one only uses the subject "You" when asking a question. One only uses the work "I" when answering a question or stating one's requests/positions, etc.<p>example: "Do you want every other weekend?"<p>example: "I do not want every other weekend. I would like every week." [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>HELLO! if this is the type of communication you have used during your marriage, you are getting what you deserve, an angry wife!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> As far as the focus being on me, I have been lied to, and lied to some more, and manipulated for years. I did everything I could think of to give you what you wanted, to let you know you were loved. I got stomped. I am not trying to be mean, or make things difficult, but work out a schedule with you. <hr></blockquote><p>HELLO! no need to rehash the past, focus on the situation at hand, the negotiation. . . the above is guilt, manipulation, putting blame on someone else for your actions, reactionary, NOTHING TO DO WITH NEGOTIATIONS! keep to the topic. . . <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I'm not sure what "level of cooperation" I would be able to expect from someone who believes in dating others during marriage. Repeatedly. This is not "bending over backwards", this is about, and has usually been about, control. About hiding your real agenda and attempting to position me to comply with your demands without complaint or discussion. <hr></blockquote><p>more DISRESPECTFUL JUDGEMENTS. <p>Learn to control your anger. . . what's your goal?<p> WHAT'S YOUR GOAL? <p>revenge? to piss her off? to want to fight verbally? to punish her? <p>basically, in divorce, you want the most out of a POOR situation, don't make it any worse. . . and if you had statements like that in your marriage, then you are controlling and manipulative. . .<p>STICK TO THE PROCESS AND YOUR POSITION. that means, if your W doesn't respond to what you are asking for, just be quiet. . . if necessary, after a period of time, and a solution hasn't been found, repeat the question, or repeat your position, or move on to another topic. . .<p>wiftty

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<sigh><p>Thanks.

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Family Man,
You sound like a typical BS in process. It is hard, I know. Are you in Plan A or Plan B? Do you have an attorney? Your feelings are real and need to be expressed but please express them here or in counseling. It does no good to express them to her because she does not care. I know that is a tough pill to swallow but it is true. Your only hurting yourself. Come here and post before engaging in email debates with her. It will get you nowhere. There is NO excuse for her A. Keep that in mind. I don't care what kind of H you were, if she was THAT miserable she should've divorced you BEFORE there was an OM. DO NOT accept responsiblity for her selfish/immature actions!!!! She is trying to make herself feel okay about what she is doing and there is NO excuse. <p>As far as the angry part. I hope you are angry! It is okay to be angry I hope you know that - it is how you express it that makes it right or wrong. There is a fine line too. Me and my H use to NEVER fight before A, he didn't know how to be angry - that is not healthy either. <p>A good reply to her is: I'm sorry you feel that way. <p>Keep it short and simple The less communication the better. Leave the rest up to the attorney's.

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surfing the boards... saw your post... take care...<p>Cali

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Hey Cali ! Thanks.<p>I LuvNprotect ME - I quess I'm in plan B, we mostly don't talk, but communicate via e-mail. This has caused some problems, but it's probably best for me. I do get repeatedly dinged for being "unavailable".<p>I guess I don't really think in terms of a MB plan these days. If I do, it's about maintaining plan B. <p> Parenting time negotiation were getting heated. After 11 mos, she wanted to drop from 50/50 to every other weekend overnights. <p>OM, WS and kids are going to Disney in June. I wasn't thinking of ..building anything, I quess validation. Maybe revenge, a position that says I won't be abused further. I was feeling.. hurt.<p>I did call her on Tue P.M.to try to calm things down, she was crying when I called, a nice talk. She did say her feelings had been hurt. I am going through this "alone"; I find it very difficult to manage, or hide all these feelings..<p>I don't feel good about what I wrote..<p>[ May 29, 2002: Message edited by: Family Man ]</p>

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Family Man your situation is alot like mine. What I have a hard time with is why the cheater blames us for their affair. I would of never had an affair no matter what my X did thats just who I am. After reading thousands of these posts they all sound the same it's never their fault we drove them to it. BULL****......Family man what you have to do now is just focus on your kids and yourself things will be OK. I still feel guilty sometimes for not being able to provide my kids with a normal life but I have to keep reminding myself that I tried sa hard as I could to keep the familt togther and it was her choice to break us apart. My X cheated on me 3 times I was married for 16 years and have two wonderful kids but her desire for lust was bigger then her desire to have a happy family so you just have to move on and take care of things the best way you can.
Take care dude you will be OK be strong for your kids.<p>PS
Isn't it amazing they always find God after they have commited adultry but they couldn't find enough sttength before their act to keep their family together.<p>Take Care<p>Carl

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I hear your pain Family Man.<p>Don't be so hard on yourself. You are only human and you have been thrust into chaos that is totally out of your control. Because you called her and you communicate through email it definately does not sound like Plan B. But maybe your not ready for that yet and that is okay. A plan is important even if it is your very own "Plan Family Man" because it helps you regain some control of your life. Like the serenity prayer: God grant me the serentity to accept the things I can not change; the courage to change the things I can; and the wisdom to know the difference.<p>I'm not sure if you've seen this before but you maybe able to critique it for your unique situation: I got this off http://www.divorcebusting.com. I hope
this helps. DivorceBusting suggests doing a 180.
1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore!
2. No frequent phone calls
3. Do not point out good points in marriage
4. Do not follow him around the house
5. Do not encourage talk about the future
6. Do not ask for help from family members
7. Do not ask for reassurances
8. Do not buy gifts
9. Do not schedule dates together
10. Do not spy on spouse
11. Do not say "I Love You"
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get
busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends,
etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start
the conversation) be scarce or short on words
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his
whereabouts, ASK NOTHING
17. You need to make your partner think that you have
had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you
are going to move on with your life, with or without
your spouse
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull
back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more
important, realize what he will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show
your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him
someone he would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which
may be a while)
21. Never lose your cool
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic
23. Do not argue about how he feels (it only makes
their feelings stronger)
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really
saying to you
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you
want to speak out
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh &
focus on all the other parts of your life that are not
in turmoil)
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any
words you can say or write
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you
are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with
your spouse
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than
50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in
absolute negatives because he is hurting and scared
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad
you feel
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.

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Basically,<p>what we are saying is to work on yourself. . .<p>Carl may never commit adultry, but you aren't married to Carl. . . unfortunately, you have a W that could not verbalize nor resist temptation, purely a human quality of some people. . . <p>however, regardless of her behavior, that does not absolve yourself from working on yourself to be the best person you can, meaning overcoming LB, DR and AO, which i suspect you don't realize all of them, and their subtlies. . .<p>my post was hard on you because your email is filled with blame and anger. . . anger is ok here, not there, ok with counselor, not ok with X and children. . .<p>not to sya it isn't hard, just need to focus, "work on yourself."<p>wiftty<p>remember, sympathy is nice, but does not change you or the situation. . . if you don't have a plan, get one.

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Hey WIFTT, I'm workin' hard on me. <p>But about the plan..are you talking about an MB plan?<p>I found that it was hard to balance, um, legal requirements for communication due to young kids, vs plan B. She does complain about me not being readily available. My words, not hers.<p>I do not have an intermediary for the plan B.<p>I haven't called her in months, e-mail is used to relay kid info; scheduling mostly.<p>I chose to give her a call because of the escalation "tone" about parenting time..<p>I am trying every trick in the book to work on me. It's an extra challenge 'cause she's a mgr. where I work; OM is in sales. It's everywhere I turn. <p>Though, there is no excuse for LB.<p>I have not been able to get "on track" since the separation. Financially and emotionally, it's still a much rougher ride than I would have hoped.<p>My therapist seems to think there's some value in "feeling uncomfortable" [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I appreciate all the feedback. If I am still sane, it's due in many respects to the support on this site.<p>Dan<p>[ May 29, 2002: Message edited by: Family Man ]</p>

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You need a Plan Dan, which can be customized any way you want. . .<p>it just you have to assess reality, understand who you are and where you came from, in other words, what did you learn from your FOO that are both attractive and unattractive traits, and figure out ways to eliminate or improve on the ones who choose to, or replace them with attractive qualities. . .<p>if you read alot here, particularly psych books, you will see that your values are mostly determined from your FOO, and that alot of your personality traits are learned/inherited from your parents. . .<p>so you need to take inventory of them, decide if they are ones you want to keep, or ones that you can improve upon, you need to read up on your personality type to understand how you interact with the world, and how you take in/give out energy, etc. . . .<p>then you have to decide on what kind of life you want to live, and then you need to make a plan as to how to get to that place that you have realisticly describe as happiness and peacefulness. . . your goal<p>your therapist should be able to lead you in that direction, and you can help yourself with readings in your spare time. . . there are many good books, particularly for you, I recommend Love Busters, and How to negotiate in Marriage by harley, and The Road less Travelled. by M. Scott Peck. Now, when i say read them, you may need to read it 3-5 times to really understand everything the book has to offer you. . . bring a highlighter, and underline the passages that speak to you.<p>there are other books, but start with those, and read up on personality types, try the second link below.<p>that's all for now. . .<p>good luck<p>wiftty<p>[ May 29, 2002: Message edited by: WhenIfindthetime ]</p>

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Family Man:
<strong>Though, there is no excuse for LB.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I beg to differ. Here's (part of) what Harley has to say about Disrespectful Judgments:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>A disrespectful judgment occurs whenever one spouse tries to impose a system of values and beliefs on the other. When a husband tries to force his point of view on his wife, he's just asking for trouble. When a wife assumes that her own views are right and her husband is woefully misguided -- and tells him so -- she enters a minefield. <p>In most cases, a disrespectful judgment is simply a sophisticated way of getting what one spouse wants from the other. But even when there are the purest motives, it's still a stupid and abusive strategy. It's stupid because it doesn't work, and it's abusive because it causes unhappiness. If we think we have the right -- even the responsibility -- to impose our view on our spouses, our efforts will almost invariably be interpreted as personally threatening, arrogant, rude, and incredibly disrespectful. That's when we make sizable withdrawals from the Love Bank.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>WIFTTy has outlined how a skillful negotiator avoids the use of disrespectful judgments, but I contend that sometimes such judgments are advisable despite the negative effects. No, they will not help you achieve your (immediate) goals. Yes, they will make your spouse unhappy. Does that make them "stupid" and "abusive". With all due respect to Dr. Harley, I think the answer is "not always".<p>Sometimes it's worth making a withdrawal from the Love Bank, if you're going to expend the "funds" on something truly important. Sometimes it's worth making someone unhappy if that's what it's going to take to save that person from greater unhappiness in the future. We understand and accept this principle when it comes to raising children, but sometimes I think the principle must also be applied in relation to a spouse.<p>If I see my wife doing something self-destructive, I believe it is my responsibility as her husband and as her friend to warn her. What kind of a friend would I be if I just stood by and said to myself "Well, she's an adult and she must make her own decisions." Yes, it's true that she must make her own decisions, but I am the watchman and I can raise the alarm. Will that be perceived as "threatening, arrogant, rude, and incredibly disrespectful"? Maybe. Almost surely. Is it "threatening, arrogant, rude, and incredibly disrespectful"? Perhaps, although the threat doesn't come from me.<p>Am I the best person to deliver the warning? Almost certainly not. But if no one else loves her enough or has courage enough to do it, I am not going to stand idly by. And some day perhaps she will remember that I cared enough to say something.

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Checking in [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] ...<p>I agree w/ Gnome re: LBs. At one point, I think early Fall, when H was still in contact w/ OW and I was still into 'relationship' talks, I told my H that he was selfish and enumerated the ways he had been selfish.<p>LB? You bet. But my H chewed on what I said for days and my evidence was irrefutable.<p>Sometimes it is an LB. Sometimes it is a hard truth. Sometimes it is both.<p>and sometimes, ya gotta take the chance.<p>Hope you don't mind me crashing. <p>Cali

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Cali, please. You are always welcome. Let me get you some coffee... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>
GnomeDePlume, thanks for a different perspective.<p>Dan

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there are ways to warn, and there are ways to express an opinion. . . a warning may not be a DR if the wording is the person's point of view. . . meaning, in GDP's example,<p> I would not do what you are about to do because the snakes in the pit you are about to jump into are venomous.<p>that is not a DR judgement because the statement does not criticize the other person's plan, but states that the same plan is unacceptable to oneself with the reasons given. . . this is not a DR, and passes the information on to another person.<p>Likewise, Cali stated an opinion from her point of view. If she states it such:<p> H, i think you are being selfish when x,y, and z happens. <p>this is an opinion, and gives the reason why the opinion is there. . . this sentence structure is exactly the same construction as the proper structure for communicating feelings in the english language. . . which is:<p> i feel _________ (fill in with angry, sad, happy, etc) when the following event(s) happen. <p>this is proper communication, and is not a DJ, nor a LB.<p>however, contract those statements with
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> The only reason I can see for your anger is that I have chosen to discuss rather than comply. <hr></blockquote><p>now this is a DJ because Dan is stating the reason for her anger. . is he correct? no one but his W knows. and chances are, she is not angry over a discussion, but his position in the discussion, which is not the discussion, as worded . . .<p>so I think to understand proper communication, and DJ are very, very key to understanding how to effectively relate to people. . .<p>and remember, one should never say:<p> i feel that you . . . . <p>because 1) you can't feel what they are feeling, and 2)what does a you feel like anyway?<p>wiftty

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WIFTTy, while anally precise people such as you and me may appreciate the distinctions you are making, I submit that many people may not.<p>If I tell my wife "What you are doing is unfair to me and morally wrong", or if I tell her "I believe that some day you will regret your decision", or if I tell her "I am very hurt and disappointed by your decision", in each case the primary message she receives is likely to be the same: "You disapprove."<p>And regardless of whether my words should be technically categorized as judgment or opinion or feeling, the element of disrespect remains. I do not respect lies and betrayal, and I could not care less whether it's politically correct to be accepting and tolerant of such behavior (as in "well, I wouldn't do that, but if that's what you want to do, who am I to judge?"). Nope. I am judging.

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GnomeDePlume, Wiffty. <p>My experience matches GNP's description of perception. My WS could not hear such distinction.
And to offer subsequent explanation is a LB.<p>Once my therapist said something about "knowing the words but not hearing the music.."<p>Dan

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So then stating a differing opinion is a DJ? I think not. . . heard as disapproval, yes, a DJ? i think not. . .<p>unless that person thinks that everyone should agree with them, and that they are right 100% of the time. . . which is pretty arrogant and narcissistic . . . <p>each person has a point of view and an opinion. . . and each should be allowed to express it. . .<p>however, people who are looking for something from someone else will find it no matter how you word the opinion. . . and therefore, proper communication and interaction breaks down, due to the personal agenda and personality. . . so i am not sure that your point is valid. . . since the agenda was not communication or understanding, but a control agenda. . . in which case, good communication is irrelevant. . .<p>but that in no way lets one off the hook for improving one's level of communication, for reducing the LBs and DJs, whether that particular person can make the distinction or not. . . i believe that most people may not appreciate the distinction, and therefore find themselves in situations that are less than desirable because of their ignorance of LBs and DJs, yet the other person realizes its a DJ and the escalation begins. . . <p>Its very simple, read the book, "The Gentle Art of Verbal SelfDefense" and you will see how easily people can put argumentative bait in front of you, you take it without realizing it, and then you lose with no way out, and feel horrible afterwards. . . and then the cycle of resentment can build. . . <p>and if the person can't hear the music, then you need to analyze the band to see that they are playing on key and in synch. . . its very easy to blame the listener for one's shortfalls. . .<p>wiftty<p>[ May 30, 2002: Message edited by: WhenIfindthetime ]</p>

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(((Dan)))<p>Hugs!<p>Well, she sure told you...hehe...I only wish mine cooked, did laundry and cleaned! sheesh...I don't think he knew where the kitchen was, he was too busy holding down the couch in case it ran off.<p>I know how hard that must of been to get that email and undermine all the work you did towards your marriage...I'm so sorry and some day I think she will see her fantasy world now is just that, a fantasy...<p>Well, I understand what Wiftty is saying to an extent, your email was that of which a spouse would feel on the defensive and would come back with a little bit of war...<p>HOWEVER, first hugs Wiftty, second, I have saw a couple of post of yours to different people lately and here's just a very soft suggestion... [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] I think you could tone them down a bit, and make your point a little more heard if you practice a little more of your own ways to communicate positively and a little less critical, such as just one quick note...IMHO, it may help to lose the "HELLO!", I keep thinking of the movie "Back to the future" where the bully would hit on the other's guys head and say..."HELLOOOOO!" Well, just a suggestion. <p>Take care guys,<p>ANNA<p>[ May 30, 2002: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

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Hey Dan!<p>I haven't been around in a long, long time...and I don't even know if you'll remember me, but my divorce was final March 8. I have absolutely NO words of wisdom...in fact, I'm so glad I divorced my SOB ex....he hurt me and hurt me and hurt me...it STILL hurts...but now he's OW's problem (by the way, they're getting married in August!)...Well, Dan, I just wanted to say that I'll be praying for you and praying most of all that the kids will come first...always the kids...my ex and I sometimes forgot that, and now they're an asbolute MESS...<p>Love and prayers coming your way!!!<p>MOM

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