Haven't heard from you since before New Year's Eve......<P>[censored] from Texas

Hi [censored] and other friends,<P>Things are BOILING on high today. Wish I could write every detail, but can't...<P>H called me from the old house and asked to talk. He said he's been trying to talk but I won't. (Why talk when it always goes down hill, he's in control and I feel beat up?) Well, since he couldn't punch or shove me around through the phone cord, I figured--ok, plus today I am ready for Plan B and need to get it in force.<P>H says he won't separate without regular weekly counseling, but he doesn't like the Pastor/Counselor situation we had. He says I only went there to complain, not compromise, that I manipulated them, and they aren't talking "compromise" only who is right and who is wrong! I said I went there to deal with our dysfunction and didn't manipulate them, and this is not about compromise. I said the way you treated me yesterday, for example, is not a matter of compromise!...It should be prevented!!!!!! If you want to have a relationship, then you should have come with to the Harley seminar. He said he didn't because he didn't see any compromise out of me. I reminded him of the real reason he told me he wasn't going!!!!!....that he knows everything about relationships and Harley can't teach him anything!!!! <P>H admitted he's been reading some out of one of Harley's books here....but it's the part about how a man needs sex! He said when I wouldn't give it to him when he asked on his birthday that he gave up on the relationship.<BR>I said the difference between a prostitute and a wife is "relationship"! A wife needs a relationship first!!!....H said that's not Biblical and you're not supposed to use sex as a weapon. I said I couldn't because there is no relationship here and I was hurting! He says I am violating the Bible in not giving him sex anymore. But in his mind, it is ok to not meet my needs and his abuse is not abuse. ????????? <P>Oh, it is just going in circles....<P>He won't agree to anything. So, it looks like I can't go to the old house, and if I do, he has a key and could harrass me. I think it's on to my next move--to get an apt. and job now. Living there would have been good for all of us, for reasons I can't discuss here, but I have to take the next toughest level. <P>UGH!!!!!!<BR>

Hi Renae. I hope you move out of there soon. You're not leaving your kids, are you?<P>Miaka

I don't know how to answer anything right now.... Man it's hard, cuz he's treating the kids so good and they seem to be enjoying him. But they are affected, I know!!! <P>All day today since listening to H I feel like my brain is scrambled. While in the car I kept talking it out with God, trying to sort things out again. It is so frustrating to hear his perception, explanations, self-justifications, accusations and projections, "feel sorry for me because..." etc..... I should not have answered his phone call. No more talks. I can't afford it mentally. It's going to take me extra time now to regain the strength I had yesterday for Plan B. I lost all of today for sure.<P>Tonight Counselor e-mailed me....a MUCH STRONGER reply after hearing how Christmas Eve was with H....I'm actually shocked at her words. They are hard medicine after I let H knock me backward mentally today....she says things like: tape him for proof, confront him with his pastor, don't let him physically hurt you but file a police report and have him arrested if necessary....you can get an Order of Protection if he is just threatening you and he has done more than that. Keep the kids safe....Remind him he will answer to God for his actions and lying to you. <P>And he's trying to get me thinking I need to compromise, forgive, have sex??????!!!!!!<BR>!!!!!!!! <P>I have an appointment in the morning, then hope to go to the old house....It will do my mind good just to go there....I always feel better over there...more strength. I will pack stuff there and work on year end taxes.... I might just start staying there.... I can bolt the door and he can't get in. I will get my mind unscrambled and be away from him and work toward Plan B.

My thoughts are whirling around like dry leaves on a windy cold fall day...<P>Do I believe what I feel or perceive anymore? H's beliefs on crucify your feelings have dug down deep in me. How much do other Christians rely on their own perceptions, feelings, etc.? <P>How far do I go, excusing him, feeling sorry for him due to circumstances, how bad his family treats him, he's under pressure, he's burnt out from work, he's the object of his brothers' jealousy all these years and they are mean, it's hard dealing with his elderly dad, you need to understand........He's crying and hangs up the phone yesterday because on his birthday he says he was "so humble and trying to have a relationship with me but you refused me! We've got different perceptions but you need to compromise, forgive, etc. " <P>UGH!!!!! Why put all the load on me????<BR>When does he start being a husband to me?<BR>When does he start acting loving, nurturing, cherishing, respectful, to me? It's all his needs! Feel sorry for him! Help Him! Express myself as he needs at any given moment! etc!! And all these years, when he asked to "spend time with him"....it wasn't to deposit in my love bank, to build emotional intimacy, to have recreational companionship or an opportunity for me to talk about whatever I need to and feel listened to and cared about and solve anything, set goals as a couple, etc. --NO!--spend time with him means sex! Yeah, I'm not stupid! And that's all he still wants and calls that relationship. He says he loves me, but I am not treated like a wife! But is this just male/female differences? NO!!!!!..... <P>When he said recently--women need men to rule over them because they can't think....that's a sick man who only knows control, not treating me with the respect I deserve. If I stay with him, he will always rule....he knows nothing about mutuality, relationship, partnership, companionship, communications that are deep and bonding. When he has repeated over and over that I should get all my needs met in God, while I must meet all of his needs--this isn't God's plan for marriage! Just cuz he isn't controlling in all the ways he used to doesn't mean he's getting better, because he keeps taking on other areas and ways of control. <P>Thanks for listening to me unscramble my mind! <BR>

My sister and my friend:<P>I can't believe the stronghold of control your husband has on you...telling you he refuses to separate without weekly counseling and then not being happy with the counselors.<P>You definitely need Plan -B- and probably an apartment/unlisted phone number to escape him. He is a very, very sick man and PLEASE RENAE......get away from him and don't allow his words to bring anymore death, guilt and shame to you.<P>He is playing you like a violin, when does it stop? <P>Follow your heart, have the courage of YOUR convictions. Again, this is only MY opinion, but I would totally and completely have no contact with him for a period of time.<P>He desperately, desperately needs help and you are continuing to allow him to suck the very life out of you.....this is not self-love.<P>Haven't you ever heard of TOUGH LOVE?<P>Please Renae.....<P>[censored] from Texas

I need to leave for an appointment...H came home to get ready for a funeral. He preached at me angrily, pointing his finger at me, etc.... that I am not treating him right and that I will pay for this because I am violating the will of God!!!!!!! Specifically, in not giving him sex, but overall he means too. UGH!!!!!!!!!!<P>God help me know the truth and let the truth set me free!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<P> <P>

Renae - Should you choose to go to the old house, you can call a locksmith. However, it might not be a bad idea to go to rental housing. If he tears up the place, someone else might come after him.<P>The tape recorder is a good idea. Also, if he hurts, you get photographs. And, God fordid, he hurt/rape you, call the police!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<P>You keep saying that you pray for God to send you answers. Don't forget my illustration of the man on the roof of his house in the flood.<P>I think you know the answers. I think it's time to pray for peace and strength. Take it one step at a time and you'll be ok.

Tonight H found me at the computer and called me down for gossip. Actually, someone wrote to me, asking to use an essay of mine on their website to help others in theological error!!!...I am so grateful for this and showed it to H. This shocked him.<P>Then he shoved a Bible in front of me and started reading and saying things that were not appropriate for my daughter who was sitting next to me!!! I asked to talk elsewhere, but he would not stop, so I told her to leave the room. But he was loud. He said he wants them to hear the truth as a witness against me!!!<P>He read from 1 Cor. 7: 3-5....demanding I'm not to withhold sex. He said again, I have no right to leave. I showed him verses 10-11 but he refused to acknowledge that I do have permission to separate. (Scripture is only used for his own purposes!!!) But worse, he accused me with pointing finger and snarling face that I have a bad spirit and my behavior is of the devil, and blackmail!! I calmly said, if that is the case, then I should go to your pastor for help. (This of course is the last thing he wants me to do!) Oh, he is so sure of himself in his judgement of me, while the sickness lies in him!!!! <P>Bleubelle, you are so right! Thanks! <P>I know it may appear, friends, that I'm not catching on to all the good advice....I really do though even if I'm slow to take action! Believe it or not, there is even more involved here than I post about, and I juggle all of this as well, making it difficult to jump to action for myself when the consequences are going to fall on far more lives than my own & the kids. I feel such responsibility! Fear, lack of assertiveness, not taking initative, second-guessing myself = my weaknesses, and this situation calls for such assertiveness, such courage!!! At times I am afraid I do not hear God, that the spiritual abuse has so damaged me....but then again I am sure He is speaking and I know...<P>Tonight I visited the spiritual abuse site: Someone responded in August to a post of mine in April! Just wanted to copy it here:<P>Re: Spiritual/religious abuse from spouse<P><BR>I just read your story and the ensuing responses. I work as an advocate for domestic abuse and because abusers all have distinct characteristics, every story I hear is virtually identical to yours. Actually, nothing sends me into action faster than when a predator uses religion as a front.<P>First I want to assure you that you have not broken your marriage vows but your abuser broke them the minute he decided to violate you physically, and with bloodless emotional and spiritual murder. We are responsible for our natural survival, while God is responsible for our spiritual survival. That is why we must do what we can do and God will help with the rest. You must leave that relationship. Your children are learning that behavior. <P>These type of abusers are what we call emotionally bankrupt. They can be described as a shiny red apple that looks great until someone bites into it and discovers the worm and the resulting decay. The outside image may look just fine, but there are absolutely no emotional underpinnings there. Those buried emotions is what their abusive tactics and religious addiction is serving. Abusers are always emotionally bankrupt and their value system is distorted, starting with themselves. They do not love themselves. In fact, they consider their REAL selves to be worthless, so they work hard to make their wanna-be image loveable, and that public image is what they come to love. That is when they make up their own rules (even twist the scripture to accomodate that) which needs to be serviced by others. That is why they use other people as mere instruments to obtain satisfaction proof of their worth and salvation. They just turn other people into a product that can be bought or sold for their own emotional fix. That is why they do not need love from anyone but just an applauding audience because the proof of their entire self worth comes second-hand - through the eyes of their beholders. (from the external) When people can only direct their love to an image reflected back to them, they can't love or accept anyone who is different. People who hide their own reality and can't provide for their own needs won't be able to provide for the needs of their spouses or children either. In fact, their own needs always take precedence and everyone else around them is required to adapt. It's when someone makes emotional demands or gains the courage to question their false image that allows their decayed interior, which became a well of contempt and venomous rage to surface. That is when the True nature of these pathological relationships are revealed. Their reaction to those who renege on their chief duty to serve their needs and lies becomes abusive. It's when abusers use God and Christianity, which offers the only real hope, power, love, well being, and security, as a haven to hide their own shame and hurtful defense mechanisms, while at the same time, use God as a weapon to shame and judge others while demanding perfection from them, that is considered equal to sexual incest. They both are the ultimate betrayal and both violate the most inner being of a person. Often in the eyes of the victim, Christianity and God become the abuser and that is when the true love, power and hope Christianity and God offers is plundered. When parents hold themselves up as speaking for God by becoming spiritual legilators, spiritual law enforcement investigators, spiritual prosecutors, and spiritual judges, children cannot distinquish between God and their parents. This behavior has nothing to do with God. It's amazing how they notice all the surface actions of others, but never notice their own internal lovelessness, greed, faithlessness, and injustice. Abusive people need to have consequences for their behavior. They don't just wake up one day and say "Oh, I think I will move into maturity today." They believe all their problems are someone elses. If others are going crazy trying to cope, that is just fine with them. First you need to work on leaving and keeping yourself safe. Leaving an abuser is the most dangerous time. Contact a shelter, hospital, clinic etc. for additional advice. They generally have personel available to guide and walk with you. Your perfectly natural anger may well be part of God's healing process in your life. Anger is not the problem but the repressed anger is what most problems stem from. Actually, anger keeps clear what has been done to us and what we need to work on. Forgiveness can come later, but is not enough for reconciliation. An abuser can never reconcile until they reconcile to themselves. Until that happens, nothing will ever change. When it comes to domestic and spiritual abuse, I have so much to say. I'm sure you will make the right choice. Healing is a process and can be a long but temporary painful task and takes a great deal of courage. However, we don't need to fake recovery to earn God's approval. Your value and acceptance is already settle by the cross so you can take all the healing time you need. Good Luck. Sincerely, Jean <P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited January 04, 2001).]

I'm trying to leave and go to the old house.<BR>H won't let me leave....<BR>He threatened to call my parents and say how bad I am....<BR>He was shaming and blaming me terribly...I cried and tried to get away....<BR>He blocked the door of the house....<BR>pushed me in a chair,<BR>blocked me from getting into my car,...<BR>One daughter is sick, and he said I can't leave her....<BR>He was mad I didn't help him with some business today....but I can't help him anymore....<BR>I feel imprisoned under him!....<BR>Don't worry....I'm going to succeed and get away. I must!!!!!! <BR>

<B>He threatened to call my parents and say how bad I am....</B><P>So WHAT!!? Let him. You are not a minor child. That shouldn't make any difference at all.<P><B>He was shaming and blaming me terribly...I cried and tried to get away.... He blocked the door of the house....</B><P>That is illegal.<P><B>pushed me in a chair,</B><P>That is illegal.<P><B>blocked me from getting into my car,...</B><P>That is illegal.<P><B>One daughter is sick, and he said I can't leave her....</B> <P>DON'T LEAVE YOUR DAUGHTERS!!!!!!!! Not with him. Ever.<P>RENAE: YOU MUST call the police TONIGHT and have him removed from the house. He should spend tonight in jail or at a hotel. Nuff said.<P><BR>.<BR>.<P><BR><B>He was mad I didn't help him with some business today....but I can't help him anymore....</B><P>Good. Don't.<P><B>I feel imprisoned under him!....</B><P>No kidding.<P><B>Don't worry....I'm going to succeed and get away. I must!!!!!! </B><P>?<BR>

I got to the old house, stayed overnight.<BR>I found out that I can't peacefully be there anymore or make it home. H's dad talked to me by phone and was shockingly very brain-washed by H, so I know he and H won't let me live there. That's fine...I'm better off going where there are no memories. I called a shelter....they will help in finding a job and place to live...<BR>I'm so low in confidence as of the last 24 hours, that I think I will need their help.<P> <BR>

When you get to the shelter, you have them help you do the paperwork to get your children out of there! I wish you hadn't left them there.

Renae, do not click on this link. Do not read this article. Don't even think about anything else until you and your children are well away from your H and there is a domestic violence restraining order in place.<P><BR>Then feel free to read this article:<BR><A HREF="http://www.smartmarriages.com/violent.html" TARGET=_blank>Is there effective help for the perpetrator?</A>

I had a returned phone call from Counselor yesterday afternoon. She made a statement that I think prepared me for what was going to happen....<P>Then H came to me last night, treated me with more respect, which is how he was when I left before. This time the conversation was, however, very different(in a positive way) than we've had. <P>He said when God pulled him out of his terrible grief 3-4 yrs ago that he not only saw how in his grief he was mishandling things with us (He doesn't yet see all of it!), but God also convicted him of how badly he had treated me sexually since we were first married(H only sees part of this, however, and I need him to realize more so it would not repeat!) <P>H said God also said then that if we didn't meet each others needs, that the devil would gain a foothold. (I hadn't heard him tell this before, and he certainly didn't change things but has talked consistently opposite of this since, except for getting his needs met only.) <P>Unfortunately our conversation got cut off at that point last night, but will likely be picked up today or later... Could this be a light at the end of a long tunnel? I don't know. I just know I need to have some faith in case Jesus walks by, so He doesn't pass me by due to unbelief! <P>I am wondering if H read more from Harley's books about needs, since something now must have triggered him to remember what God apparently told him years ago about the necessity of meeting needs in marriage. <P>Oh boy was I low this weekend! Now, after the talk with H, I am somewhere between nothing and everything?<P>Stay tuned...... more to come....<BR>

Renae,<P>We've told you this before, especially [censored], that if you go ahead and live apart, it will give him a chance to see himself much more clearly.<P>You are a smart lady and I think you know what you need to do, but he obviously has a major hold on your life. You have allowed him to control you for so long that you would rather believe him than yourself.<P>I'm not surprised he's being nicer, he doesn't want you to leave. I'm sad that it sounds like he gives you a bone and you get all excited.<P>I think I have said all I can say to you. You want so desparately to believe that he will snap out of it, that you will cling to anything. I've read this long thread and the ones you had at familylife.com.<P>If he were to be willing to change, IT WILL TAKE A LONG TIME and could only happen if you ceased enabling his behavior.<P>You have never answered questions we have posed regarding your kids. Has he hurt them too? Or just you? (The example alone is very bad for them.) <P>Why, Renae? Why do you stay?

Schizzo:<P>THANK YOU for putting into words what I wanted to say! Yes, why does she stay???<P>Renae:<P>I'm with Schizzo, I have poured out my heart to you, so have others (Karenna etc).....I have poured out my heart in e-mails to you + here on this site.<P>Now I am hearing a few nice words from your husband and you are ready to stay. <P>I said it before and I will say it again, God has sent you 2 row boats and a helicopter, are you going to stay and drown?<P>Your husband is playing mind games, I know, been there done that......he is afraid of losing control, so he has reverted from the openly controlling manner to sweet talk.<P>This is a very, very sick man and the longer you stay, the longer you enable this sick behavior.<P>I think I too have said all I am going to say. <P>[censored]

H continued the talk last night but it was back to his usual frame of mind-- <BR>What did Counselor say to you on the phone Sunday? I anwered that she thinks it is awful that you won't even give me a key to this house (I only have a garage door opener.) What can I answer her as to why after 2 years you fail to give me a key?<BR>HE said it is because of my eratic behavior of the last 3-4 years, and he can't make any plans with me. You must have a split personality!!!..<P>Have I not heard him say this garbage enough? To him everything is all my fault!!!!!! <P>He went on and on..."You LIAR! You GOSSIP! You won't forgive! You've created problems where there are none! All you do is attack Me!!!!!......You think you're so innoscent! You manipulated the counselor.... You...."<BR>This is not a man willing to have a marriage. It is Shame, blame, project,.....<P>Schizzo--You are so right!!!<P>I stay because I want the marriage I married for!!! He promised!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not right to send me from one hardship of abuse to single mom..... I have done the career thing, and I want the homemaker/business role I have here!!! I don't want the kids to have to give up the house they love to move to an apartment!!! I'll walk out with the stigma of divorce....only to meet the shame of my parents and relatives. I have lost the big chance to have what I need most in life--a loving marriage. It sickens me!!<BR>I am not an independent woman of the 90's and 2000's..... I am a family person.<P>But it is clear he is set in his ways. He hates me. Now his dad hates me too--after what he said (under H's influence), I can't face him again. I must leave.<P>Ok, [censored]. I understand. I can't win this.<BR>I had hoped it was a spiritual battle that could be won now if I hung on. A few years ago he knew he needed "grace". There were the "breakthroughs" when he saw how sick he was. He still calls down the life of the pharisees. He knows some truth. But not enough. <P>Sadly,<BR>Renae <P><BR>

Renae, please open your heart and hear me...<P>I want to address what you said:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I stay because I want the marriage I married for!!! He promised!!!!!!!!!!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He is an abusive man. If there is any chance of ever having that with him, he must face himself. (with you out of the way). It will take deep brokenness and YEARS. But from all you've said, the chances are almost nil. God does not go against the free will He gave us. Yes, he promised, but he won't do it. Just as surely as the men who dumped their wives, he has broken his vows to love and cherish you. Accept that and grieve your loss...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>This is not right to send me from one hardship of abuse to single mom.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, it's not right, it's not fair. The man that I adored, that I lived my life around him and our kids, cheated on me with a young girl and was in limbo a long time in his choice of her or me. And I faced being a single mom with prospects much worse than his...But he's not sending you (as mine was). You are taking control of your life so that you will not be ashamed before God one day. You are doing what's right, protecting yourself and the kids.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I have done the career thing, and I want the homemaker/business role I have here!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>While I know you don't want a divorce, you need to protect yourself legally to get the support you need. (If he were really turning around, he would offer it willingly). Is it possible you could maintain yourself between his support and your business? Do you have anyone you trust to advise you?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I don't want the kids to have to give up the house they love to move to an apartment!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree here too. I know you said before you couldn't get him to move, but here too a good lawyer would go a long way. THERE IS NO SHAME IN DOING WHAT YOU MUST TO PROTECT YOURSELF AND YOUR CHILDREN. I was abused as a child and know what it is like to carry shame around with you. This is not your fault and you need to face that squarely. I'm giving it to you straight because after months of posting I have seen that you are a strong woman under the low self-esteem (that I also struggle with).<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'll walk out with the stigma of divorce....only to meet the shame of my parents and relatives. I have lost the big chance to have what I need most in life--a loving marriage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Your mistake was in choosing the wrong man. You can mourn that mistake. Beyond that you have to internalize what you KNOW. You have lifted every stone trying to save this marriage, but have had to finally admit that you cannot change your h! If your own family cannot be supportive in your time of need, you should keep them far away (as I have had to do with mine).<P>As to your last comment, I don't know. I don't know why Jesus specifically allowed divorce (and to me that implies remarriage) for infidelity and didn't mention abuse.<P>Don't add to your pain now by saying you blew your only chance for happiness. I don't believe that. You need a caring community that will reach out to you as we have, but you need at least one flesh and blood person that will be a true friend now.<P>I hope I've given you something to think about. I truly believe you could begin to really blossom from the inside out when you are away from the abuse. Your life is just beginning and you will see it more clearly when you stop making excuses and jump.

Schizzo's right, Renae.<P>My current understanding is that, many years ago, the term "adultery" did not mean solely the physical relationship we now think of. It meant the breaking of the marriage covenant.<P>Think of your vows. Were they not to love, honor and cherish each other? Has he not broken them? <P>Yes, you have a lot of your dreams taken from you. I don't think you need to feel shame when dealing with your family. Regret that things went as they did. But if you tried as hard as it sounds like you did, you need not be ashamed. What your family needs to offer you is love.