Earth to Renae, Earth to Renae...Where are You???

Haven't heard from you since before New Year's Eve......[censored] from Texas

Hi [censored] and other friends,Things are BOILING on high today. Wish I could write every detail, but can't...H called me from the old house and asked to talk. He said he's been trying to talk but I won't. (Why talk when it always goes down hill, he's in control and I feel beat up?) Well, since he couldn't punch or shove me around through the phone cord, I figured--ok, plus today I am ready for Plan B and need to get it in force.H says he won't separate without regular weekly counseling, but he doesn't like the Pastor/Counselor situation we had. He says I only went there to complain, not compromise, that I manipulated them, and they aren't talking "compromise" only who is right and who is wrong! I said I went there to deal with our dysfunction and didn't manipulate them, and this is not about compromise. I said the way you treated me yesterday, for example, is not a matter of compromise!...It should be prevented!!!!!! If you want to have a relationship, then you should have come with to the Harley seminar. He said he didn't because he didn't see any compromise out of me. I reminded him of the real reason he told me he wasn't going!!!!!....that he knows everything about relationships and Harley can't teach him anything!!!! H admitted he's been reading some out of one of Harley's books here....but it's the part about how a man needs sex! He said when I wouldn't give it to him when he asked on his birthday that he gave up on the relationship. I said the difference between a prostitute and a wife is "relationship"! A wife needs a relationship first!!!....H said that's not Biblical and you're not supposed to use sex as a weapon. I said I couldn't because there is no relationship here and I was hurting! He says I am violating the Bible in not giving him sex anymore. But in his mind, it is ok to not meet my needs and his abuse is not abuse. ????????? Oh, it is just going in circles....He won't agree to anything. So, it looks like I can't go to the old house, and if I do, he has a key and could harrass me. I think it's on to my next move--to get an apt. and job now. Living there would have been good for all of us, for reasons I can't discuss here, but I have to take the next toughest level. UGH!!!!!!

Hi Renae. I hope you move out of there soon. You're not leaving your kids, are you?Miaka

I don't know how to answer anything right now.... Man it's hard, cuz he's treating the kids so good and they seem to be enjoying him. But they are affected, I know!!! All day today since listening to H I feel like my brain is scrambled. While in the car I kept talking it out with God, trying to sort things out again. It is so frustrating to hear his perception, explanations, self-justifications, accusations and projections, "feel sorry for me because..." etc..... I should not have answered his phone call. No more talks. I can't afford it mentally. It's going to take me extra time now to regain the strength I had yesterday for Plan B. I lost all of today for sure.Tonight Counselor e-mailed me....a MUCH STRONGER reply after hearing how Christmas Eve was with H....I'm actually shocked at her words. They are hard medicine after I let H knock me backward mentally today....she says things like: tape him for proof, confront him with his pastor, don't let him physically hurt you but file a police report and have him arrested if necessary....you can get an Order of Protection if he is just threatening you and he has done more than that. Keep the kids safe....Remind him he will answer to God for his actions and lying to you. And he's trying to get me thinking I need to compromise, forgive, have sex??????!!!!!! !!!!!!!! I have an appointment in the morning, then hope to go to the old house....It will do my mind good just to go there....I always feel better over there...more strength. I will pack stuff there and work on year end taxes.... I might just start staying there.... I can bolt the door and he can't get in. I will get my mind unscrambled and be away from him and work toward Plan B.

My thoughts are whirling around like dry leaves on a windy cold fall day...Do I believe what I feel or perceive anymore? H's beliefs on crucify your feelings have dug down deep in me. How much do other Christians rely on their own perceptions, feelings, etc.? How far do I go, excusing him, feeling sorry for him due to circumstances, how bad his family treats him, he's under pressure, he's burnt out from work, he's the object of his brothers' jealousy all these years and they are mean, it's hard dealing with his elderly dad, you need to understand........He's crying and hangs up the phone yesterday because on his birthday he says he was "so humble and trying to have a relationship with me but you refused me! We've got different perceptions but you need to compromise, forgive, etc. " UGH!!!!! Why put all the load on me???? When does he start being a husband to me? When does he start acting loving, nurturing, cherishing, respectful, to me? It's all his needs! Feel sorry for him! Help Him! Express myself as he needs at any given moment! etc!! And all these years, when he asked to "spend time with him"....it wasn't to deposit in my love bank, to build emotional intimacy, to have recreational companionship or an opportunity for me to talk about whatever I need to and feel listened to and cared about and solve anything, set goals as a couple, etc. --NO!--spend time with him means sex! Yeah, I'm not stupid! And that's all he still wants and calls that relationship. He says he loves me, but I am not treated like a wife! But is this just male/female differences? NO!!!!!..... When he said recently--women need men to rule over them because they can't think....that's a sick man who only knows control, not treating me with the respect I deserve. If I stay with him, he will always rule....he knows nothing about mutuality, relationship, partnership, companionship, communications that are deep and bonding. When he has repeated over and over that I should get all my needs met in God, while I must meet all of his needs--this isn't God's plan for marriage! Just cuz he isn't controlling in all the ways he used to doesn't mean he's getting better, because he keeps taking on other areas and ways of control. Thanks for listening to me unscramble my mind!

My sister and my friend:I can't believe the stronghold of control your husband has on you...telling you he refuses to separate without weekly counseling and then not being happy with the counselors.You definitely need Plan -B- and probably an apartment/unlisted phone number to escape him. He is a very, very sick man and PLEASE RENAE......get away from him and don't allow his words to bring anymore death, guilt and shame to you.He is playing you like a violin, when does it stop? Follow your heart, have the courage of YOUR convictions. Again, this is only MY opinion, but I would totally and completely have no contact with him for a period of time.He desperately, desperately needs help and you are continuing to allow him to suck the very life out of you.....this is not self-love.Haven't you ever heard of TOUGH LOVE?Please Renae.....[censored] from Texas

I need to leave for an appointment...H came home to get ready for a funeral. He preached at me angrily, pointing his finger at me, etc.... that I am not treating him right and that I will pay for this because I am violating the will of God!!!!!!! Specifically, in not giving him sex, but overall he means too. UGH!!!!!!!!!!God help me know the truth and let the truth set me free!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Renae - Should you choose to go to the old house, you can call a locksmith. However, it might not be a bad idea to go to rental housing. If he tears up the place, someone else might come after him.The tape recorder is a good idea. Also, if he hurts, you get photographs. And, God fordid, he hurt/rape you, call the police!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!You keep saying that you pray for God to send you answers. Don't forget my illustration of the man on the roof of his house in the flood.I think you know the answers. I think it's time to pray for peace and strength. Take it one step at a time and you'll be ok.

Tonight H found me at the computer and called me down for gossip. Actually, someone wrote to me, asking to use an essay of mine on their website to help others in theological error!!!...I am so grateful for this and showed it to H. This shocked him.Then he shoved a Bible in front of me and started reading and saying things that were not appropriate for my daughter who was sitting next to me!!! I asked to talk elsewhere, but he would not stop, so I told her to leave the room. But he was loud. He said he wants them to hear the truth as a witness against me!!!He read from 1 Cor. 7: 3-5....demanding I'm not to withhold sex. He said again, I have no right to leave. I showed him verses 10-11 but he refused to acknowledge that I do have permission to separate. (Scripture is only used for his own purposes!!!) But worse, he accused me with pointing finger and snarling face that I have a bad spirit and my behavior is of the devil, and blackmail!! I calmly said, if that is the case, then I should go to your pastor for help. (This of course is the last thing he wants me to do!) Oh, he is so sure of himself in his judgement of me, while the sickness lies in him!!!! Bleubelle, you are so right! Thanks! I know it may appear, friends, that I'm not catching on to all the good advice....I really do though even if I'm slow to take action! Believe it or not, there is even more involved here than I post about, and I juggle all of this as well, making it difficult to jump to action for myself when the consequences are going to fall on far more lives than my own & the kids. I feel such responsibility! Fear, lack of assertiveness, not taking initative, second-guessing myself = my weaknesses, and this situation calls for such assertiveness, such courage!!! At times I am afraid I do not hear God, that the spiritual abuse has so damaged me....but then again I am sure He is speaking and I know...Tonight I visited the spiritual abuse site: Someone responded in August to a post of mine in April! Just wanted to copy it here:Re: Spiritual/religious abuse from spouse I just read your story and the ensuing responses. I work as an advocate for domestic abuse and because abusers all have distinct characteristics, every story I hear is virtually identical to yours. Actually, nothing sends me into action faster than when a predator uses religion as a front.First I want to assure you that you have not broken your marriage vows but your abuser broke them the minute he decided to violate you physically, and with bloodless emotional and spiritual murder. We are responsible for our natural survival, while God is responsible for our spiritual survival. That is why we must do what we can do and God will help with the rest. You must leave that relationship. Your children are learning that behavior. These type of abusers are what we call emotionally bankrupt. They can be described as a shiny red apple that looks great until someone bites into it and discovers the worm and the resulting decay. The outside image may look just fine, but there are absolutely no emotional underpinnings there. Those buried emotions is what their abusive tactics and religious addiction is serving. Abusers are always emotionally bankrupt and their value system is distorted, starting with themselves. They do not love themselves. In fact, they consider their REAL selves to be worthless, so they work hard to make their wanna-be image loveable, and that public image is what they come to love. That is when they make up their own rules (even twist the scripture to accomodate that) which needs to be serviced by others. That is why they use other people as mere instruments to obtain satisfaction proof of their worth and salvation. They just turn other people into a product that can be bought or sold for their own emotional fix. That is why they do not need love from anyone but just an applauding audience because the proof of their entire self worth comes second-hand - through the eyes of their beholders. (from the external) When people can only direct their love to an image reflected back to them, they can't love or accept anyone who is different. People who hide their own reality and can't provide for their own needs won't be able to provide for the needs of their spouses or children either. In fact, their own needs always take precedence and everyone else around them is required to adapt. It's when someone makes emotional demands or gains the courage to question their false image that allows their decayed interior, which became a well of contempt and venomous rage to surface. That is when the True nature of these pathological relationships are revealed. Their reaction to those who renege on their chief duty to serve their needs and lies becomes abusive. It's when abusers use God and Christianity, which offers the only real hope, power, love, well being, and security, as a haven to hide their own shame and hurtful defense mechanisms, while at the same time, use God as a weapon to shame and judge others while demanding perfection from them, that is considered equal to sexual incest. They both are the ultimate betrayal and both violate the most inner being of a person. Often in the eyes of the victim, Christianity and God become the abuser and that is when the true love, power and hope Christianity and God offers is plundered. When parents hold themselves up as speaking for God by becoming spiritual legilators, spiritual law enforcement investigators, spiritual prosecutors, and spiritual judges, children cannot distinquish between God and their parents. This behavior has nothing to do with God. It's amazing how they notice all the surface actions of others, but never notice their own internal lovelessness, greed, faithlessness, and injustice. Abusive people need to have consequences for their behavior. They don't just wake up one day and say "Oh, I think I will move into maturity today." They believe all their problems are someone elses. If others are going crazy trying to cope, that is just fine with them. First you need to work on leaving and keeping yourself safe. Leaving an abuser is the most dangerous time. Contact a shelter, hospital, clinic etc. for additional advice. They generally have personel available to guide and walk with you. Your perfectly natural anger may well be part of God's healing process in your life. Anger is not the problem but the repressed anger is what most problems stem from. Actually, anger keeps clear what has been done to us and what we need to work on. Forgiveness can come later, but is not enough for reconciliation. An abuser can never reconcile until they reconcile to themselves. Until that happens, nothing will ever change. When it comes to domestic and spiritual abuse, I have so much to say. I'm sure you will make the right choice. Healing is a process and can be a long but temporary painful task and takes a great deal of courage. However, we don't need to fake recovery to earn God's approval. Your value and acceptance is already settle by the cross so you can take all the healing time you need. Good Luck. Sincerely, Jean [This message has been edited by Renae (edited January 04, 2001).]

I'm trying to leave and go to the old house. H won't let me leave.... He threatened to call my parents and say how bad I am.... He was shaming and blaming me terribly...I cried and tried to get away.... He blocked the door of the house.... pushed me in a chair, blocked me from getting into my car,... One daughter is sick, and he said I can't leave her.... He was mad I didn't help him with some business today....but I can't help him anymore.... I feel imprisoned under him!.... Don't worry....I'm going to succeed and get away. I must!!!!!!

He threatened to call my parents and say how bad I am....So WHAT!!? Let him. You are not a minor child. That shouldn't make any difference at all.He was shaming and blaming me terribly...I cried and tried to get away.... He blocked the door of the house....That is illegal.pushed me in a chair,That is illegal.blocked me from getting into my car,...That is illegal.One daughter is sick, and he said I can't leave her.... DON'T LEAVE YOUR DAUGHTERS!!!!!!!! Not with him. Ever.RENAE: YOU MUST call the police TONIGHT and have him removed from the house. He should spend tonight in jail or at a hotel. Nuff said. . . He was mad I didn't help him with some business today....but I can't help him anymore....Good. Don't.I feel imprisoned under him!....No kidding.Don't worry....I'm going to succeed and get away. I must!!!!!! ?

I got to the old house, stayed overnight. I found out that I can't peacefully be there anymore or make it home. H's dad talked to me by phone and was shockingly very brain-washed by H, so I know he and H won't let me live there. That's fine...I'm better off going where there are no memories. I called a shelter....they will help in finding a job and place to live... I'm so low in confidence as of the last 24 hours, that I think I will need their help.

When you get to the shelter, you have them help you do the paperwork to get your children out of there! I wish you hadn't left them there.

Renae, do not click on this link. Do not read this article. Don't even think about anything else until you and your children are well away from your H and there is a domestic violence restraining order in place. Then feel free to read this article: <A HREF="http://www.smartmarriages.com/violent.html" TARGET=_blank>Is there effective help for the perpetrator?</A>

I had a returned phone call from Counselor yesterday afternoon. She made a statement that I think prepared me for what was going to happen....Then H came to me last night, treated me with more respect, which is how he was when I left before. This time the conversation was, however, very different(in a positive way) than we've had. He said when God pulled him out of his terrible grief 3-4 yrs ago that he not only saw how in his grief he was mishandling things with us (He doesn't yet see all of it!), but God also convicted him of how badly he had treated me sexually since we were first married(H only sees part of this, however, and I need him to realize more so it would not repeat!) H said God also said then that if we didn't meet each others needs, that the devil would gain a foothold. (I hadn't heard him tell this before, and he certainly didn't change things but has talked consistently opposite of this since, except for getting his needs met only.) Unfortunately our conversation got cut off at that point last night, but will likely be picked up today or later... Could this be a light at the end of a long tunnel? I don't know. I just know I need to have some faith in case Jesus walks by, so He doesn't pass me by due to unbelief! I am wondering if H read more from Harley's books about needs, since something now must have triggered him to remember what God apparently told him years ago about the necessity of meeting needs in marriage. Oh boy was I low this weekend! Now, after the talk with H, I am somewhere between nothing and everything?Stay tuned...... more to come....

Renae,We've told you this before, especially [censored], that if you go ahead and live apart, it will give him a chance to see himself much more clearly.You are a smart lady and I think you know what you need to do, but he obviously has a major hold on your life. You have allowed him to control you for so long that you would rather believe him than yourself.I'm not surprised he's being nicer, he doesn't want you to leave. I'm sad that it sounds like he gives you a bone and you get all excited.I think I have said all I can say to you. You want so desparately to believe that he will snap out of it, that you will cling to anything. I've read this long thread and the ones you had at familylife.com.If he were to be willing to change, IT WILL TAKE A LONG TIME and could only happen if you ceased enabling his behavior.You have never answered questions we have posed regarding your kids. Has he hurt them too? Or just you? (The example alone is very bad for them.) Why, Renae? Why do you stay?

Schizzo:THANK YOU for putting into words what I wanted to say! Yes, why does she stay???Renae:I'm with Schizzo, I have poured out my heart to you, so have others (Karenna etc).....I have poured out my heart in e-mails to you + here on this site.Now I am hearing a few nice words from your husband and you are ready to stay. I said it before and I will say it again, God has sent you 2 row boats and a helicopter, are you going to stay and drown?Your husband is playing mind games, I know, been there done that......he is afraid of losing control, so he has reverted from the openly controlling manner to sweet talk.This is a very, very sick man and the longer you stay, the longer you enable this sick behavior.I think I too have said all I am going to say. [censored]

H continued the talk last night but it was back to his usual frame of mind-- What did Counselor say to you on the phone Sunday? I anwered that she thinks it is awful that you won't even give me a key to this house (I only have a garage door opener.) What can I answer her as to why after 2 years you fail to give me a key? HE said it is because of my eratic behavior of the last 3-4 years, and he can't make any plans with me. You must have a split personality!!!..Have I not heard him say this garbage enough? To him everything is all my fault!!!!!! He went on and on..."You LIAR! You GOSSIP! You won't forgive! You've created problems where there are none! All you do is attack Me!!!!!......You think you're so innoscent! You manipulated the counselor.... You...." This is not a man willing to have a marriage. It is Shame, blame, project,.....Schizzo--You are so right!!!I stay because I want the marriage I married for!!! He promised!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not right to send me from one hardship of abuse to single mom..... I have done the career thing, and I want the homemaker/business role I have here!!! I don't want the kids to have to give up the house they love to move to an apartment!!! I'll walk out with the stigma of divorce....only to meet the shame of my parents and relatives. I have lost the big chance to have what I need most in life--a loving marriage. It sickens me!! I am not an independent woman of the 90's and 2000's..... I am a family person.But it is clear he is set in his ways. He hates me. Now his dad hates me too--after what he said (under H's influence), I can't face him again. I must leave.Ok, [censored]. I understand. I can't win this. I had hoped it was a spiritual battle that could be won now if I hung on. A few years ago he knew he needed "grace". There were the "breakthroughs" when he saw how sick he was. He still calls down the life of the pharisees. He knows some truth. But not enough. Sadly, Renae

Renae, please open your heart and hear me...I want to address what you said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I stay because I want the marriage I married for!!! He promised!!!!!!!!!!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>He is an abusive man. If there is any chance of ever having that with him, he must face himself. (with you out of the way). It will take deep brokenness and YEARS. But from all you've said, the chances are almost nil. God does not go against the free will He gave us. Yes, he promised, but he won't do it. Just as surely as the men who dumped their wives, he has broken his vows to love and cherish you. Accept that and grieve your loss... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>This is not right to send me from one hardship of abuse to single mom.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No, it's not right, it's not fair. The man that I adored, that I lived my life around him and our kids, cheated on me with a young girl and was in limbo a long time in his choice of her or me. And I faced being a single mom with prospects much worse than his...But he's not sending you (as mine was). You are taking control of your life so that you will not be ashamed before God one day. You are doing what's right, protecting yourself and the kids. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I have done the career thing, and I want the homemaker/business role I have here!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>While I know you don't want a divorce, you need to protect yourself legally to get the support you need. (If he were really turning around, he would offer it willingly). Is it possible you could maintain yourself between his support and your business? Do you have anyone you trust to advise you? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I don't want the kids to have to give up the house they love to move to an apartment!!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree here too. I know you said before you couldn't get him to move, but here too a good lawyer would go a long way. THERE IS NO SHAME IN DOING WHAT YOU MUST TO PROTECT YOURSELF AND YOUR CHILDREN. I was abused as a child and know what it is like to carry shame around with you. This is not your fault and you need to face that squarely. I'm giving it to you straight because after months of posting I have seen that you are a strong woman under the low self-esteem (that I also struggle with). <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I'll walk out with the stigma of divorce....only to meet the shame of my parents and relatives. I have lost the big chance to have what I need most in life--a loving marriage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Your mistake was in choosing the wrong man. You can mourn that mistake. Beyond that you have to internalize what you KNOW. You have lifted every stone trying to save this marriage, but have had to finally admit that you cannot change your h! If your own family cannot be supportive in your time of need, you should keep them far away (as I have had to do with mine).As to your last comment, I don't know. I don't know why Jesus specifically allowed divorce (and to me that implies remarriage) for infidelity and didn't mention abuse.Don't add to your pain now by saying you blew your only chance for happiness. I don't believe that. You need a caring community that will reach out to you as we have, but you need at least one flesh and blood person that will be a true friend now.I hope I've given you something to think about. I truly believe you could begin to really blossom from the inside out when you are away from the abuse. Your life is just beginning and you will see it more clearly when you stop making excuses and jump.

Schizzo's right, Renae.My current understanding is that, many years ago, the term "adultery" did not mean solely the physical relationship we now think of. It meant the breaking of the marriage covenant.Think of your vows. Were they not to love, honor and cherish each other? Has he not broken them? Yes, you have a lot of your dreams taken from you. I don't think you need to feel shame when dealing with your family. Regret that things went as they did. But if you tried as hard as it sounds like you did, you need not be ashamed. What your family needs to offer you is love.

Wow, Bleubelle and Schizzo's...you are right. I read on another thread someone saying Unfaithfulness isn't just infidelity but unfaithful to any of the requirements of the marital relationship. Of course nobody's perfect all the time, but H is breaking them as a continual pattern with no remorse! It's been horribly painful for so many years. I drove by some apartments located near the kids' school...thinking of what might work out best....Thanks to you all!

Renae:Got your e-mail, hope you got my reply.I believe the Lord has sent you so many confirmations of what you should do, the latest being all the wisdom/insight Schizzo has given you.One of the things that helped free me from the guilt of going thru divorce last year after a 4 year separation and a 33-1/2 year marriage was when I found out adultery doesn't only apply to sex.Adultery means "unfaithfulness" in a broad sense. My wife was not guilty of sexual adultery, but she was unfaithful to our vows in that she chose to leave and not return to me. And the remaining partner isn't under bondage for God has called us to peace (I Cor 7).Your husband has committed "emotional/verbal adultery" against you Renae.Also, Jesus said Moses (through the Holy Spirit's leading) was allowed to write a law of divorcement into the Law. Jesus told the Pharisees this.Yes, He said.....Moses did allow divorce, but He also went on to say, "But from the beginning it was no so".In other words, the Lord, in His Mercy and Compassion for frail, weak and imperfect mankind.....gave us an 'out' even though it was never His Perfect Will in the beginning.Renae.....I can speak from experience, "there is life AFTER divorce" and always remember "The Will of God is not fragile".In other words, if you have tried to make your marriage work (which you have) and your husband, by virture of his free will chooses not to change and you end up divorced....God is not going to fall off of His Throne, wring His Hands and cry out "Oh No, what am I going to do now?"Many people stay together strictly because of a piece of paper but there is no love, no joy in their marriage. They simply exist. I have heard recently that this isn't honoring to God and that in some cases...people like this would be better off divorcing.Anyway.....food for thought![censored] from Texas

Today, H is defending how his dad treated me on the phone last Sat. eve. and accusing me of having verbally attacking his dad!!! This is really very sick. This just shows he's more connected to his dad than to me and what the truth really is; his dad can do no wrong and I am the evil one. If that's how he's going to be, then I can't change it. After saying that, he told me he's been working three years at this marriage but I am the whole problem!!! He says we will divorce. He told me to go find a place. (He was sort of angry, so I'm not sure if this is his final word or not, but I think I'll follow up on it.)It appears the relationship has breathed its final breath.I will be free, huh?

ARE YOU TAKING YOUR DAUGHTERS???? ARE YOU LISTENING??? THEY ARE IN DANGER!!!!GET THEM OUT OF THAT HOME.I'm glad this is OVER for you - but is it OVER for them - or did you leave them there to be raised as sexual slaves to the man who abused YOU?IF he hasn't abused them already - with his past, if he doesn't find another woman who will put up with his abusive kind of treatment, how long before he starts treating them the way he was treating you?THINK Renae... YOU know what will happen ... DON'T LEAVE THEM!!!

I hear you, seekingjoy.Counselor called me with the phone number of a Christian shelter, support groups, legal help. She said if he attempts to shove me around one more time to file a police report. She urged me to get a list together of all the times he's been physically abusive. This weekend, H said that what he said on the 12th about "we will divorce; you go find a place"...was said out of emotion, so now, what is the solution? I told him I have some materials we need to read...He got mad, saying "you just want to run everything! The solution is what I say...The Bible and Tim Timmond's book Maximum Marriage" (We read that when we dated). Then why did he ask me? ...To launch off more condemnation, of course. He started in falsely accusing me, putting me down...you're like this...you're like that.... What do you want in a divorce? I want the truth, I said,....why are you so afraid to read the materials I have? If you have all the truth, you shouldn't be threatened by this. What do you want in a divorce, he asked again. I said, I want the truth first. But if you go ahead, then be fair as you told me a year ago; if you have all the character you claim, then demonstrate it with fairness. (The ball is in his court now.) But I will continue to go forward as I am for myself and the kids as well, not waiting for him to do the right thing, but I will always say what he needs to hear....I have been doing better emotionally the past several days, getting alot done. I thank God for this.... He is helping me to be able to get out of here. I am focused forward....Keep praying for me! Thanks!

I heard Dr.& Mrs. Harley on the radio yesterday, talking about "neglect" in a relationship. I tend to think of the direct abuse rather than the neglect I experience, which truly wears down a relationship just as badly. I guess in "Christian" teaching we hear more about being self-less, putting others first, etc., and that it's somehow selfish to consider yourself & your own needs and feelings as neglected in a relationship. I am so glad I heard Harley's words about neglect, awakening me again to the fact that it is WRONG to have such a low or no quality relationship!!! He says you wouldn't let a room go unpainted for over 10 years, or even just one day slap any old paint on it. People take great care choosing color for a room, etc, but neglect to maintain a quality relationship. So true.Oh I'd love to have the kind of marital relationship Harley speaks of! He's doing another seminar in our area this weekend... I'm going to tell H about it, just in case he finally realizes I'm serious about change, though I won't hold my breath expecting him to go, and he would have to go alone this time. H is mad that I'm so "independent" now. But it has been fine for him to be so independent all these years, not caring about me. HmmmmI helped his dad with business yesterday. He didn't apologize to me for how he's treated me...just acted like nothing has happened. Maybe this is where H gets it from?!! He's never treated me so horribly and I'm still hurting, and they could care less!!!! GRRRR Going forward.....

Renae - if he physically abuses you so as to leave any marks, get photographs! If he roughs you up enoughn that you need to fight back, get to the ER at the nearest hospital for them to gather any evidence possible, such as fingernail scrapings. And when you leave, take your angel children with you. Leave the clothes if you have to but take those angels!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[censored], Bleubelle, Schizzo and all,I think we are not helping the situation here. Our inputs give her a false sense that she is doing something about the situation, when in reality she is still just stirring her emotions. Just as her husband needs to be separated from her for a season in order to face his own character, she may need a breathing space to be with her own reality and limitations. She can always come back and read the three threads here. Continuing input may be what has her initiative stifled. Why should we care more about what she does and what situation she is in than she does? We don't have all the facts. She does.Renae? You are the boss.

Karenna:Well said! I am really discouraged by Renae's last post which after all that has been 'said & done' - she is still with him and still trying to make it work.You're right.....I (we) don't have all the facts.[censored]

Karenna,I agree. That is why I have not posted again. She told us why she stayed, and I answered her point by point.Did she read it? Did she take it to heart?I don't want us to become enablers here too for the abuse that she is still allowing and the precious kids that are still exposed...

I was thinking about this earlier.We've given her encouragement.We've given her adviceShe's a big girl and admits the situation is intolerable. For her and for the children. Yet, she chooses to stay. And Renae has that choice. Just as a counselor can not make you implement any of the strategies you discuss in therapy, we can not make Renae take her children and go to a safe place.Sadly, I'll leave this alone. I wish she were out of this abominable hell of a marriage. But, I don't know of any more I can say or do. It is her choice. It's her life.

Not to sound cruel in any way....I was wondering how long it would take to get to this point. This is the very reason why I stayed out of it. She sounds just like my mother......Maybe one day she'll be okay.....Miaka[This message has been edited by yuki miaka (edited January 18, 2001).]

Hello friends! I just sent [censored] a lengthy e-mail and don't have much time to write here. Just want to let you all know I had a sane talk with H last night and we have decided to divorce and to do so cooperatively and as peaceably as possible. Seems like he's going to be fair financially to me as well as supportive of the kids' needs. I am grateful that he has apparently given up control. I will finally be able to have peace and get a life out of this isolation and pain. I'm so grieved and hurting now... more than I can describe.I hugged him for some time and cried quietly at his neck, for I have loved him nearly to my soul's death, have spent 14 years in desperate search for help for us, and now must lay it all to rest and go on, accepting what I cannot change. God, it is so hard!!!! He can't comprehend how much I have loved him and still do. How I want for him to be healthy, etc...!!!!Don't know when we will actually part ways...lots of stuff to organize and do... but I think it will be soon. Maybe by March 1.???...don't know, maybe sooner.Anyway, thanks for the support and prayers. You've been there to listen when I've had noone at all. You've given advice and support, love, and so much....I am so grateful to you for taking the time for me. Thanks!!!!!!!!Hugs, Renae

It is so sad that it has come to this. But it is sadder still to think what you might be in for should you remain with him. ((((((((((Renae))))))))))

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Renae: Just want to let you all know I had a sane talk with H last night and we have decided to divorce and to do so cooperatively and as peaceably as possible.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't know about anybody else here, but does this sound a little bit strange after all the stuff she told us her husband put her thru and now they're getting a divorce?? And peaceful at that.I'm sorry, Renae, but I don't believe you. How is it that your "abusive" husband can suddenly give you a divorce peacefully??It doesn't make sense. I should've stayed FAR away from this thread.Miaka

Why can't a trial separation work out? Did I miss something here? Whose idea was this?Regarding a peaceful divorce, I don't know that you can take him at his word! Is he using this tone of sanity to beguile you into not using legal assistance? Don't succumb to that! You need a lawyer. Just the business issues you have will need expert handling, not to mention the family and property. As long as he cooperates, you two can write up your agreements then have them reviewed and refined by a lawyer and keep expenses down that way.I am glad you got to cry over the loss on his shoulder. That does help a lot. Good luck with everything. Your future will be what you make it, Renae.Love,Karenna

He's messed with your mind so thoroughly. Don't get suckered in and not retain your own attorney. Absolutely, you must not sign any documents without your own legal representation!!!!!!!!!!

Back to the top !Anyone heard from Renae ?[censored] from Texas

Hi, Alot going on in my situation daily.... all I have time for is contact with Counselor via e-mail & phone. She says my situation is so multi-faceted that one has to be careful on all ends of it....Now the board she works under is aware too.... I will be getting legal advice tomorrow, which needs to be considered before I would run out of here. Running out too soon could create more problems for me. Today it was such a relief again (after more of H's stuff) to hear that I have been doing right and that I'm not crazy!! I need frequent reminders of that!! Your prayers are valued!! Hugs, Renae

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Renae: I will be getting legal advice tomorrow, which needs to be considered before I would run out of here. Running out too soon could create more problems for me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So how are things now? Did you get a lawyer? Is your counselor active? Are you safe? Do you feel guilty?

Things are moving slow (by your view) here but steady...I talked with the director of a Christian shelter but it is too far away so that my kids would have to change school, etc... I don't want to do that. (When we go, I think it is time for a permanent home, anyway...we have already been in transition too long, with H not letting us make this house into home.) Counselor said the shelter's legal helpt is no longer enough now...she gave me the name of a Christian attorney to get my rights protected if H continues to threaten & pursue divorce.... Counselor is furious about H's recent ways. After H has cooperated with me in getting tax business done, she wants the kids & I to have a place to go (to avoid his anger), and she will go with me to H's pastor and get him involved in major confrontation of H! She says we cannot avoid this important "Biblical step" if H is going to pursue divorce. You see, H thinks I am of a bad spirit ("can't trust you with business if something should happen to me" he says), and he says I'm standing in the way of his pursuit of "ministry"!...He thinks he can put me away and his church will accept his involvement there!...The sin must be exposed!...(This is scarey, but I think she's right...don't want others hurt by H appearing to be so righteous but underneathe is decay,immaturity, abuse....) Prayer support needed!

Just so you are safe, you get the girls, and you cover every eventuality.Have you printed out these MB threads dealing with your situation and shown them to Counselor or Pastor? Don't you think it might be a good idea?Prayers rising!Love,Karenna

Renae?

Hi Karena, Counselor wanted me to find out about doing an order of protection, so I went to an attorney yesterday. He says that is only for if you are in iminent (sp?) danger, namely physical abuse or threat of it, afraid for you life, like he could kill you. He doesn't think it fits for my situation. He said bluntly, these controller/abusers never change, so protect your kids & yourself by just divorcing him. He said, contrary to what H says, that he could get me full custody and that the Court would give us the house and send H out, that the Court wants the kids to keep their home, neighbors, etc...keep it stable as can be while parents separate. He said he can make the finances work to support us. I'm not sure I swallow all of that. I believe in Harley's Plan B. But H told me if I leave, he's going to divorce me, that he won't allow separation!! Ugh! And if I leave with the kids, maybe I won't be able to get the house if it comes to divorce? I don't know. Yet on one emotional side of me, I have too many painful memories here and it still feels like his house. Maybe a clean break...moving is the way to start a new life for me and the kids.?? I am torn. I don't know what to do. The kids wanted to have a friend over this weekend, and H said no. He thinks they can go on for years and never have friends over? They have already lost friends because of this! I tried to tell H this, but he does not understand because he says he never had friends over when he was young. Karenna, I can't let this go on.I feel backed into a corner, unable to procrastinate any longer. It's decision time. Help!Feeling very weary, Renae

Renae,I would probably suggest that you go the way your lawyer has suggested. You would file for divorce, your husband would need to move out. I just can't possibly imagine that he's going to get better in a short period (3-6 months)---and if he's not willing to leave of his own accord for a Plan B separation, then I'd suggest the divorce filing to get him out of the house.It'll still take time, and eventually, you may decide to move yourself. But I'd try to keep the kids in the house (and yourself) first. If your husband immediately gets to counseling and starts showing signs of improvement, you can slow the divorce (or remarry)---but I frankly think that scenario is very unlikely to happen.

(((((hugs to you Renae))))) I am currently in a similar situation......it is hard....you alone know the choices you have to make....God will take care of you....btw what was the address of that spiritual abuse website???good luck and take care of yourself and your kids....peace to us allstilldreamin

((((((hugs to you too, stilldreamin)))))) and thank you for the support! The spiritual abuse website is at <A HREF="http://www.sosa.org." TARGET=_blank>www.sosa.org.</A> Only caution is that you can run into all types over there. For example, last summer a group of Universalists came suggesting they were abused by Christian doctrine; I don't agree with that. But there is good support too.

Hire that lawyer and work very closely with him. Sounds like he's a really good one. Your higher obligation is to protect your children in the long term, not to protect your husband, his legal situation, or his "marriage". [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

(Here you need a physical event within 30 days to get an order of domestic violence protection.) {{{{{{{{{{{{Renae}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Has anyone heard from Renae? Is she OK?

Thank you for thinking of me, bluebelle. I am journeying into more awareness.... regarding this belief system of H's church and my roots in it also. Specifically, (1) I'm frustrated that Counselor's pastor just dropped H because he wasn't humble enough, etc. I think this is a "law-based" religous way, that makes a judgement against a person, then leaves them in that condemnation. Such religious counsel does not lead H out of his religious baggage, shame sickness, emotional bankrupcy, and carry him to the path of grace, wisdom, individual healing, and to a healthy marital relationship. They judged H, then walked away leaving him unaccountable and continuing to mistreat me. This is not God's way of helping people, though they would claim they are more Biblical in counseling than psychology. (2) Counselor, too, keeps telling me to respond in a Godly manner, asserting truth to H, & only leave temporarily for physical safety or get an order of protection if there's physical abuse. There seems to be no leaving for spiritual, mental or emotional abuse...She thinks I can be so strong all the time, following the guidelines of her favorite book, The Excellent Wife by Martha Peace. I do not think this book fits someone in my situation!! Every time I've picked up that book, it "triggers" me emotionally and spiritually causing me more misery. It sets a standard that God expects me to stay here being endlessly strong with H, and if I can't I'm less of a Christian. It says if you are overwhelmed you are sinning! I disagree! At just the thought of all the abuse Jesus knew was before him (Cross,etc), He was in agony, to the degree of sweating!! And He was at the same time in prayer and being strengthened by angels! His emotional agony was not sin,for He is God!!!... and I don't think my agony with an abusive man is sin either. Right??? The book even says that if you desire a better companionship/intimacy with your spouse, that this is idolatrous!!! I dare say, this is the theology that H has, that I should get all my needs met in God!! My guess is that M.Peace would be against Harley's philosophy of need-meeting in marriage. THis theology is so anti-relationship!! (3) I have concluded this law-based fundamentalist counseling does not help H nor someone like me, both of struggling to shake off the binders of legalism. Also, It doesn't help me, who has struggled in the past with enmeshment with H's dysfunction and an endless trying to "fix it" (codependent) mentality. (4) This book is like H's religion of ignoring your feelings....and you can see where it got H!!...into total emotional immaturity & bankrupcy. I now doubt that this is Biblical counseling. I am struggling but coming to believe, there is grace for H when he is ready, and grace from God for me to leave when it is His time and I am ready. [This message has been edited by Renae (edited March 26, 2001).][This message has been edited by Renae (edited March 26, 2001).]

Counselor suggested we meet this week to discuss the book and homework she gave me, but I declined, not only because I'm too busy to go right now, but I think from now on I'm done with that religious philosophy and it's going to be just me and God. [This message has been edited by Renae (edited March 26, 2001).]

I don't think the author of that book has her head on straight. What about so many things we read about in the Bible - like the predominant topic, LOVE?Renae, take care of yourself and the girls. And find another counselor. And if the h doesn't like it - phooey on him. (BTW, I read a wonderful book one time "The Transformation of the Inner Man" by a married couple with the last name Sandford. Not about marriage but about inner healing or spiritual healing.)

Renae:Good to hear from you again! Continuing to pray for you.I just have one question? Why do you continue to go back to that counselor? You should have dumped her long ago. I can't understand why you continue to subject yourself to your husband's abuse and to the unwise counsel coming from your counselor ???I totally disagree with the premise of "her favorite book" and to me, emotional abuse/abandonment and verbal abuse (on a continuing basis) is as much grounds for leaving as sexual abuse and/or sexual unfaithfulness.Renae....you must, must follow your heart and while I know the Bible says "In a multitude of counselors there is safety (or wisdom)".....the flip side of that verse is: "in a multitude of counselors there can also come confusion" (everybody wants you to follow their agenda).I just can't believe you are still with him and the longer you stay, the longer you prolong his deliverance (if he will ever face up to himself).[censored] from Texas

Yes, bleubelle, and that books sounds interesting![censored]: >Why do you continue to go back to that counselor? <I've got ties to that denomination since I was a kid, and inspite of all I've come to disagree with them on and dropped out of H's church several months ago, I still have ties inside me.... I guess I had to experience this counseling to hit it home harder that these types can't help H and I. [This message has been edited by Renae (edited March 26, 2001).]

Renae - I know it's your life but I would suggest you consider a counselor with ties to a different congregation or a different denomination. I hope that it is obvious to you that there is no safety with this man, spiritually, physically, or emotionally, if you have been telling us the truth. You need someone who can help you reach the emotional strength to move on with YOUR life.The Sandfords book, by the way, deals with inner or spiritual healing. YOu might find it helpful in healing your heart.

Lost Counselor today, officially. Another stone turned, [censored]. Though it was for the best, I still feel bummed.

Need continued prayer. Thanks! [This message has been edited by Renae (edited April 04, 2001).]

Old song coming to mind.... "Peace, peace, wonderful peace, coming down from the Father .... Sweep over my spirit forever I pray in fathomless billows of.... Thanks, Holy Spirit....He's holding my hand....He will walk with me today .....will walk with me each step....

I know losing Counselor was the best thing, but I felt so alone... That last phone talk, she was real tough with me, exposing her REAL beliefs, saying I can go temporarily to a shelter but do not have any Biblical grounds for separation or divorce (only permissible if there's adultery), that the purpose of her counsel has been to make me be strong and stay married to H. She shamed me, that I am wrong to want any approval from H. Isn't acceptance part of loving? She's getting this from that Martha Peace book and that denomination of H's. It was so hurtful to feel from her that God expects far more of me than I am able with H. I decided she must have a different god than my God, a Bible with missing parts. Hers is all law. Mine has grace too. Most shocking was the fact she is aware of harm to the kids, and still she says I must stay with H and just tell the kids about abuse before they are adults so they can avoid a marriage like this!!! UGH! Time to part ways with her.I had a good talk/cry with God and asked for the next step....I remembered then, a year ago, the abuse counselor told me to go get support from Pastor T, who I happen to know. I think now is the time for that. I must contact him soon.

Renae:Lord knows, I'm one of the biggest proponents of saving a marriage around here. And I'm not even sure you should divorce yet---I think separation is the first step.But to be counseling with a counselor who encourages you to physically stay in an abusive marriage, so long as there's no adultery involved---that's just downright scary. I'd urge you to find a counselor who can balance your safety and sanity with a plan that might allow your husband to seek help and reconcile with you. With God, everything is possible. There's no Biblical law that prohibits separation, so don't let that deter you.

Thank you, K!! Perfect time for your message. I just got off the phone with a friend who advised the same thing. She knows H's church also, and says there are other men there who treat women in condescending ways (I didn't realize this but wondered).... anyway, it is confirmed in my heart now--it will have to be a legal separation. Maybe thru this the court will advise anger management therapy, etc too, which H would never get therapy on his own... this is the best approach for me, the kids, and H. Yes!!I will phone Pastor T and also call a new attorney. (Karenna, the last one was experienced, but his attitude was not what I can work with.)

H threw a "monkeywrench" into the plans I have to meet Pastor T alone on Tues.!!Since I dropped Counselor, H has accused me of having a secret agenda to just divorce and run off with the kids. He accused me of being bad, that I'm refusing to be accountable to anyone. (It is really him who has refused all along to be accountable.)He pressured me to tell him if I'm going to see someone new (for counsel), and he insists on following me to my next appointment (Pastor T)!! He said there will be no more marital counseling without him along to tell his side of things! Of course, I did not intend this to be a marital counseling session!! The days for that were over.)I wondered if I should cancel with Pastor T, sneak off alone(H doesn't know the day and time), or let H come along and see if Pastor T can do him any good? (I have heard he and his church have dealt with others from H's similar religious background, and shown them the "grace" of Christianity. Maybe in the process of H running to control me, he runs into a Pastor of Grace who can help?? I am nerveous. Don't know what to expect or do!! Need prayer!! [This message has been edited by Renae (edited April 09, 2001).]

Maybe I'm being ugly but here goes: How are you paying for your counseling? Is it coming out of your discretionary money or out or joint money? Or is it provided free by church? Is it to be paid for by your insurance provider?That sort of figures in to whether or not to let him come, perhaps. If he insists on being there, let him pay for half of it. Would that change his demands.You could tell him you want to go by yourself but he is welcome to meet alone with Pastor T at a time HE schedules. Then, take it from there.Or let him go and sit there while you talk about issues that do not concern him. Let Pastor T know ahead of time and then talk about issues that have nothing to do with x. Peanut things. Yes, you'll be wasting counseling time but if h thought it had nothing to do with him, he might leave. How did h find out you had this appointment? What would happen if you said "Based on the outcome of our previous counseling, I'm not planning on making appointments for marital counseling. When you decide to do so, let me know and I will consider going. Should I make an appointment to deal with improving our marriage, I'll ask you to come." This man is controling you to the maximum.

Good to hear from you, Bleubelle...I met with Pastor T today alone; H was planning to come but a business phone conference took too long. H says he will go next time (I will not count on that 'til I see it.)Pastor T understands completely and is willing to meet with H and give him the grace he needs to grow, if H is willing; he can also give him good connections with others in the church. However, if he refuses to cooperate this time... I will have support to file for legal separation, and Pastor T will still be there for him should he decide to wake up at that time and want to deal with himself. There is also a pre-divorce group I can be part of just in case things go that way, and a lady I can connect with for support. Later today, I ran into a lady (at my kids' sport lesson)who attends that church, and without knowing anything of my situation, she starts telling me how 14 years ago she went ahead and got herself and the kids involved in that church, even though her H had similar attitudes as my H that it isn't conservative enough; finally he went and has been happy there ever since. HMMMThings are moving forward....

I am coming to see God as more inclusionary than exclusionary. and I think there are a lot of things religious conservatives take as gospel truth that are found only in the books of 1 or 2 Opinions. I'm waiting for someone to show me the scripture for a worship assembly facility other than the temple, synogogue, or someone's home. That means the church building, as "GOD'S HOUSE", a building solely for the purpose of Christian worship may not be scriptural. However, I see it as a tool for doing God's work.There are so many things people hold sacred based on tradition and opinion. God doesn't give us tons of rules except love one another and Him and be good citizens of our family and community and obey the civil laws if they are not in conflict with His laws.

Yes!!...books of Opinions 1 & 2!... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

The worst part is the narrow-mindedness that is emphasized as RIGHT and only that can possibly be RIGHT. If you express a possibility that even slightly deviates from what they think is right, you're WRONG or LIBERAL. My H used to scowl at me, "What are you trying to do, rip a page out of the Bible?!!!" I had high fear of God & his truth and was in no way trying to destroy it, but I just wasn't expressing things with the exact vocabulary he learned. He could rattle off this definition of love, but what good is that if you can't live it?? Last night H says, "You don't like me spiritually. That is the whole problem." He can't see it is the lack of healthy GROWING spirituality! See, if you think you are right, why seek, knock, etc? And it's his backrupt emotional life that spews out abuse, and his lack of relationship skills leave me in neglect,... all coated in religiousness and he's never wrong!! And to him, everyone else has the problem, not him! They are pharisees, they are liberal, they are.... but he is RIGHT, while his wife and family are sick from him!!! Yesterday he denied that he had agreed to see Pastor T. I reminded him of his exact words, but he gives himself the freedom to deny it and break his promises.... if I did any of that, he'd angrily reprimand me as a liar and command me to obey!! I told him "if the house is on fire, you don't have to think about calling the fire department"...and it is time to see Pastor T. (This is his last chance, and he just wants to play games!!) UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!Now he said to me that how can Pastor T know anything for us when he can't even see he's using the wrong Bible version, taken from bad manuscripts?!!!! Oh the circles are endless!!! If he won't try Pastor T, I must just move on!!!!!! [This message has been edited by Renae (edited April 14, 2001).]

Why are you still trying to validate yourself through him? His god is his Church. (Note the capitalizations!) Please keep working on yourself. Don't worry about his path.

Right, I can't expect any validation or affirmation from H, who continually sets me up as a target board and takes pride in his attacks. Yesterday while at his church with the family for the holiday, I cringed as I heard the very things that contributed to forming the man I live with!! (Yet I also know even the Counselor & Pastor we met with from his own denomination viewed H as abusive and controlling, not acceptable to them.) Later, H preached at me that Pastor T can't help him/us because he uses the NIV, a "Swiss Cheese Bible" (leaves out things from the KJV). If he is going to use this argument to avoid getting Pastor T's marital/theological help, then there is nothing more I can do for him. He refuses to grow & develop a marriage. He's emotionally/relationally sick but covers it over with religion and tells himself he's ok. Very sad.[This message has been edited by Renae (edited April 17, 2001).]

Last night, he says, if I can contact Pastor T with his Swiss Cheese NIV Bible, and if I can't accept H's spiritual gift and the ministry he believes in doing, then I am just too liberal!! What makes this so crazy, if you knew me, is I am and always have been very conservative; nobody ever viewed me as liberal! He's completely sick!He said if he would love me more than the ministry God has for him, then he would be commiting idolatry. Hmmmm.... Seems to me it isn't a problem at all of him loving me too much but reality is he's not loving me enough, as the Bible instructs "as Christ loves the church". I am hearing very clearly that he has no intention of valuing me as a person or wife and having a real marriage. He wants only to do his church thing. OK. I will pray for him but go on with my own life with the Lord.I can't believe a man would marry a woman, what is supposed to be the ultimate human expression of acceptance and love, then spend the next 15 years using, abusing, neglecting, and then totally rejecting her and think it is God's will for him!! Did he not participate in a "covenant" of promise before God and me to love and cherish?? Is church ministry first before marriage? UGH!!...I am so shocked!! I'm giving him an ultimatum today...he either goes to Pastor T or he's setting himself up for disaster--to lose his wife and kids in legal separation or divorce. Also, the former Counselor is still eager to contact H's pastor and tell him how I'm treated; she said it is Biblical for him to be told but I was holding off, giving H grace in the chance to straighten out with Pastor T. His own pastor would disapprove of him ending the marriage to work in his church! Things are at the boiling point. Prayers needed! God help me, I need peace from this man!! [This message has been edited by Renae (edited April 17, 2001).]

Where did you get the idea that it was "Biblical" to hold off calling him to repentance and let him continue ignorantly in sin? I don't call that grace.Praying for you to have strength. He never loved you at all. Just dependence. He is Church oriented, not God oriented. I never meant to imply that he should love you more than God.

To explain, the strategy has been:(1)Confront him before 2 witnesses: Counselor and her Pastor,from H's denomination. They could not get H to admit sin (abuse, etc.), repent, & change.(2)Counselor believed next it would be Biblical to confront H before his own pastor, though she didn't think this would even bring him to repentance but is following scriptural procedure. I want to wait with #2. She and her pastor already put him through a "law" approach--they figured out his problem/sin, and then condemned him and refused to help him see a way out. The Bible says that's what the law does. His own pastor will do the same thing, just shame him some more, and he will just have the same reaction of resisting this. I believe that "shame-based, law" approach should stop for now and we switch to Pastor T's "grace" approach of teaching H truth in love, informing him about the roots of his spiritual abusiveness, etc., offering to provide support to heal and grow in a church "grace community", etc....and if H refuses this and thinks he will find refuge back at his own strict church, THEN it is time to blow his "image there"--he gets the hammer from his own pastor, not allowed to do ministry there, etc....plus I do legal separation and I have the kids and I'm not here to help with his business either.... at that point he's under pressure from all sides. As he faces himself alone, he can decide to (a) change by going back to Pastor T for help, get anger management, learn Harley's marriage skills, or else (b) face divorce and as an abuser unwilling to change, he loses contact with the kids. Doesn't this progression make sense, Karenna? Right now he seems to be refusing to even see Pastor T to be offered grace and thinks he will be accepted for doing ministry at his own church! I think his own pastor already knows there's a problem here & won't accept him hiding his sin & trying to restart his ministry from years back. It is possible he would even be barred from the church ,as Counselor is eager to tell his Pastor everything!

But isn't he still "doing" ministry? What is it? Teaching kids basketball or conducting marriage seminars?What is the old ministry he would have to restart? Different from his present activity?Does he have a "Job" outside of the church?Is he supported financially by the church either in whole or in part?How much spiritual damage is he perpetuating or could he potentially perpetuate through continuing in ministry as a hateful abusive unrepentent person with his priorities the antithesis of Jesus'?Shouldn't you be protecting the flock too from his erroneous thinking and morals?What is taking Counselor so long to blow the whistle on him? Does she have to wait for you?I don't think I like that denomination very much, and I have no idea what it is. My Jesus has a lot more grace for individuals and compassion for families than theirs seems to have.

He had quit his ministry position thru his church shortly before he met me in '84, and his plan was to start up again with me to help. Remember this is actually the primary reason he dated & married me, is to have a helper in ministry (not for relationship!). He has put me down & blamed me as keeping him out of this ministry all these years, but that is not the case! He is being dishonest with himself!!It is an unpaid, evangelistic outreach to surrounding suburbs and up in the inner city. H would go door-to-door, meeting people, esp. inviting kids to church, then pick up all these kids with a bus on Sundays. He'd sing with them, give a mini-sermon, etc on the way to church. During the week when he was off his regular job, he was very involved with families, witnessing, etc. [This message has been edited by Renae (edited April 19, 2001).]

Renae:Thought I'd jump in and add my 'two cents' worth concerning 'Marriage vs Ministry'.I have had first hand experience with a spouse who felt ministry was more important than marriage/family.I'm sorry, but marriage/family comes before ministry. I remember years ago hearing someone remark at a missions conference in L.A. that "so many men are out winning the world to Christ, while their own families at home are going to hell".Maybe not literally, but in the sense that they are being neglected because the husband/father is out 'doing the work of the Lord'.Let me share some things for you to ponder: * Relationship always precedes Ministry * God established the home/family/marriage BEFORE He established the church * If a man can not rule his own household, how can he rule the household of God?There is a God appointed/ordained/established list of priorities that must be followed in a marriage relationship.(1) Individual relationship with the Lord is 1st priority in a marriage (2) 2d, your spouse (3) 3d, your children (4) 4th, your job,career, MINISTRY (5) 5th, friends, hobbies etcIf you are familiar with Jim/Tammy Bakker (PTL) in his book I WAS WRONG, both Jim and Tammy admitted they put their ministry ahead of their marriage which led to their downfall and ultimate divorce.I believe it is Matthew, Chapter 9, which states: "if when you go to the altar to present your gift and there you remember your brother has something against you (or you against him); leave your gift, go and be reconciled to your brother and then come present your gift"I had always heard this taught concerning money, but I believe it (your gift) could also apply to ministry. In other words, if your home/family/marriage is in shambles, you need to lay down your ministry, go home and put your house in order.One time the Lord spoke to me what I felt was a prophetic word and said "Our ministry (mine and my former wife's) would be sorely limited unless our Jerusalem was in order. That, unless our Jerusalem (home) was in order; we should forget going to Judea, Samaria and the utter most parts of the world".I also believe many people "hide" in ministry, finding all their worth/value in what they DO, rather than in WHO they are. Remember, 'relationship precedes ministry'.Up until 1995, I was just like your husband.....law based, performance based, legalistic, all wrapped up in ministry and outward appearance....but while I was in China, the Lord impressed these words upon me that have totally revolutionized my life and continue to:"I am more interested in what I can accomplish in you, than what I can accomplish through you. For the quality of what I accomplish through you, will be based upon the quality of what I have been able to accomplish in you".God wants a chance to work on your husband's character and integrity.....but He needs his cooperation.Do you remember the harsh words of rebuke that Jesus had for the Pharisee's who were like 'whited tombs' but inwardly were rotten? They had all their religious ducks in a row 'externally'.....but inwardly they had Zero character!The anointing or ministry gifts will carry you to a place where your character won't keep you! In other words, all the glitz, glamour and charisma of ministry will fade and what's going on behind closed doors will be shouted from the rooftops and exposed.Anyway.....hope I have shared somethings that might help.[censored]p.s.I love something I heard Dr. Ed Cole (author of Maximized Manhood)said:"A man's character is reflected in the countenance of his wife"Have you looked at your countenance lately?

Right, [censored]. I just never imagined anyone married just for ministry, to control the wife, and not to build relationship, closeness. It boggles my mind. Looks like he clearly doesn't want to be restored to wholeness. He knows he's empty, etc...but continues his patterns. Yesterday he blew up in anger out of nowhere, accused me of "trying to fit into the family but you're a phoney", "you're a gossip", "I trust you--ZERO!", "You leave all my business stuff alone!"....I told him he is terribly mistaken about me, my real motives, etc. He's sick. Efforts at restoration seem impossible. Time for separation. I can't live with these constant character attacks. That's what Patricia Evans says in her books on verbally abusive relationships, that he's always re-defining you. I am definitely not who he says I am. He's crazy!!

H had to deliver eviction notice papers to a renter who has committed gross violations of the lease, etc. After H did this, he called me. I know he hates the behaviors this renter committed, but I heard in his voice that he feels sad for this renter....H said "He just can't see himself". Yes, I answered, that's how those types are (hint, hint!!) I can't help but feel that H will be the same way when he gets "papers"...He just can't see himself!!!! Sad, indeed, when a man can't see himself. I pray God helps us all to see ourselves as we really are so that we may mature into all God has for us to be!!.... Just some thoughts....

I don't recall if I have mentioned the book here by Dr. Margaret Rinck titled Christian Men Who Hate Women. I almost didn't read the book due to the extreme sound of the title, but I read it some time back, and I've picked it up again to review some points. [censored], Karenna, and others--read this book if you can!! It is incredibly enlightening. No doubt others come to this board with the same problem I'm in...tell them to read this book!As Dr. Rinck describes, H has a condition called "misogyny". She describes the qualities in the wife also, that led her to such a man. I have dealt extensively with those issues over many years, even prior to marriage, and feel more "whole" as a person now, but H refuses to deal with who he is, typical of misogynists, and the fact his church enforces his behavior/attitudes/emotional & spiritual dysfunctions that cause chaos in marriage. I like what Dr. Rinck suggests, to do a "covenant separation" which allows the wife peace and healing while H gets help. What I'm thinking right now I should do is to ask Pastor T to talk to my H about this and see if we can get it in force ASAP. If H will not cooperate with that and getting his own therapy, then I will have to take tougher action of legal separation or divorce. This is what I'm thinking about right now. This seems like the correct way to handle this. I must call Pastor T next week.Thanks for your support and prayers! [This message has been edited by Renae (edited April 21, 2001).]

Most excellent suggestions! I would like to see that book. But misogyny just means "hates women" in latin! Not exactly a clinical condition.The only problem I see now is that if he is resistant in the least, you are going to need system back up with legal help. Getting temporary orders for you and the girls require that you file for Separation. Or perhaps only a restraining order, depending on your local laws and rules, but he has to have done something somewhat threatening or violent very recently to get that. Hope you found a nicer attorney!

Well, Karenna, the book describes my H to a T, from using "God's will" to get a woman to marry him, then being controlling, angry, abusive, having a public image vs. private, etc...and how the church has failed to detect these types etc... Good advice, Karenna. Thank you.I got seminar tapes and book from Itsfixable.com... Oh, it looks good but H will not be interested....they talk about dealing with your past and why you are in the mess.... And get this!...Last week, I had Dr. Harley on the radio, H walks in and hears Harley talking to a woman regarding her spouse's affair, Harley says it's not necessary to dig into his past.... My H took Harley's statement out of context and looked at me and said, see?..I keep telling you to forgive and we go on!!! these psychologists who tell you to look at your past aren't right! (GRRRRRR!!...H needs to deal with why he's so dysfunctional from his past and work on self recovery. I thought to myself....How will this man even consider listening to Itsfixable's program!!!... Well, I will ask, but this is it for programs if he won't do this. Tonight H started attacking me with "you won't communicate, you're stuck on the past and unforgiving"....I took a piece of paper, wrote "Behavior A" at the top and wrote "f" (for forgive) down the page for every week, month, years he keeps repeating this behavior, but I said, if you never repent, you never change, you never stop Behavior A, all that happens is, I get more irritated, our relationship suffers, you create more and more damage that is not repaired (I scribbled all over the page). I wrote my name and drew walls around it, telling how guarded I become. I drew a repeated circle telling how communication only goes around in circles and never resolves anything, so why should I desire to communicate with him? You keep saying I'm the problem, but I am not! Your behavior is!!! Surprisingly, this silenced him!!! But will it do any good?!! I will not hold my breath!!At one point, he interrupted and preached that I was getting loud. I said, this is just another one of your defenses, accusing me of getting loud when you don't want to hear the truth!! Again, he looked stunned.He just doesn't get it, and I'm tired!!![This message has been edited by Renae (edited April 22, 2001).]

That's it! Past behaviors that are REPENTED OF need not be mentioned over and over. Ongoing patterns with no evidence of change, no confession of wrong and remorse, no plea for forgiveness from those he wronged CERTAINLY ARE STILL AT ISSUE!!!You know the difference. <OL TYPE=1> 1. See if he knows the difference in the context of some third party who has "wronged" him. When does he forgive? Ever? When does he hold a hard line in the face of a person begging for more chances?2. Then make the step to the "wrongs" you have committed against him, repented of and asked his forgiveness. Which of those has he forgiven? Thank him for those, if any.3. Then make the cosmic lightyear leap to HIS behaviors he wants you to ignore/drop/forgive in spite of the lack of sincere permanent repentance. Explain what genuine repentence would look like to you, i.e., your terms for forgiveness! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

</OL>[This message has been edited by Karenna (edited April 22, 2001).]

Hey, we are both simultaneously editing the above two posts!

Hi Karenna! Yes, we're both here thinking of each other! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Karenna, just wondering...have you read my posts since the way back beginning when I first came here?

Yes. But not re-read recently.How about you?Bet you haven't read all mine! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Renae:You mentioned Dr. Rinck in the book talked about "Covenant Separation" which allows the wife to heal and have peace while the husband gets help/deals with his issues.This is what I have advocated for the past few months in my responses to you.You mention getting Pastor T involved in this to see if your h would be agreeable....in my opinion, you should forget h and simply think of yourself and leave.....[censored]

Knowing how revengeful he is, I've been afraid if I leave he really will just divorce me as he threatened. I've had to reach acceptance of that as a likely consequence before I leave. He's on this kick now of accusing me of being unwilling to work on the relationship...he preaches and shames me for this. He can't imagine how burnt-out I am... Instead of doing "emergency loving" & his own self-work to rescue us, he just kicks me more!! Can you believe this man? He's so "shame-based"! UGH!!!!!!!

Is that the worst that will happen?!!Is that why you are waffling?Unbelievable.

Oh, I've been waffling for lots of reasons, Karenna, but those reasons are losing hold as my level of inner pain on a daily basis is becoming more than I can stand. His verbal attacks on me yesterday, the day before, etc...are just sick! There is no emotional safety in his presence.I need to meet the new counselor for support,talk over the options I have, and get a plan of escape going. Kids will be out of school by June 2 and I should be able to break free of him soon. The Itsfixable.com tapes are good. H walked into the room and listened to parts of them yesterday, surprisingly. At first he scowled at me for listening to this "digging into the past junk" (he has to pre- & mis-judge everything), but then it caught his attention and he stood there listening for quite some time, probably trying to find real fault with it but it was just too good! I will play more of these tapes when he's around....It is the only way left to get truth into his ears before I'm gone.Your prayers are so appreciated as I'm untangling myself from this web!!

What do other women in my situation do at this point to offset the terrible feelings of loneliness? Yet I feel so withdrawn like even trying to interact with people is hard.[This message has been edited by Renae (edited April 24, 2001).]

Many people join a support group. You most definitely ought to find a class, workshop or support group for victims of domestic violence. Don't worry about "qualifying" for it. You do. Later on you can go to a "divorce" support group if you end up filing for legal separation.

Today I had a phone consultation with my new counselor (recommended by Pastor T and attends (& enjoys!!)his church even though she originally came from a very conservative background (so can understand H). Unlike my last counselor, she believes in "separations" for abusive situations but with ongoing therapy with hopes of reconcilliation and avoiding divorce. This is what's needed-- sounds great for our situation!!! Her husband coaches too. Pastor T can join us also if we want. We set a tentative meeting time for next Wed. eve.....Now I need to ask H. He was very "low" today, ....so perhaps he is ready to try??? UGH!!... [censored], Karenna, bleubelle...and all, please pray for H's cooperation this time: that he will go to counseling, cooperate with separation, respond to therapy, etc.!!

I'm awake in the night. Can't sleep cuz stuff is running through my mind. If H won't get this counsel I found and agree to separation, I must just go anyway...I can't take it!!!!Yesterday we were cleaning out whats left in a huge machine shed before the buyer of the building comes to disassemble it this weekend. H looked very distraught...said he doesn't feel like working, wishes he could run away! He's tired of the overload of work and perfectionistic expections his dad & brothers put on him, he works around the clock and yet his elderly dad acts like H gets paid too much though it is a far cry from enough. H thinks I just want to place more expectations on top! He sees himself as a victim of this and our marriage problems all due to this and circumstances. I said, sure circumstances affect us but we still have choices and need to make better choices!He can't see that I'm out not to encumber him as they are but rather to free him from this sick life-- helping him set better boundaries, free him of erroneous beliefs & sick patterns of behavior, etc. and I have a team of loving, grace-oriented people just waiting to help him!! They and I want him to get through his chaotic circumstances, pain and woundedness to change his life to health and joy and to gain a real marriage for once!! [This message has been edited by Renae (edited April 26, 2001).]

Renae, you seem to have such a good heart. This man doesn't know what he is missing out on.I have no clue where you live and what community resources are in your area but I do have a suggestion for finding a support group. The YWCA, not the YMCA, in my city has a variety of groups including one for abused wives. I called them at one point in my debacle and they told me I did qualify for the group. That all I needed to do when I was ready to attend was call and let them know and they would tell me where the meeting was- they protect this information. There is no charge for this support group.If you need help in finding something similar, e-mail me at MBbleubelle@yahoo.com. I will get you a telephone number for either the YW here or for our Council of Community Services and they can possibly help you find a referral source in your area.

Thank you so much, bleubelle! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

As soon as H woke this morning and found me in the kitchen, he started in verbally, angrily attacking me...I could tell he was suffering deep pain and didn't know how to ask for caring/comfort. Suddenly he stopped, slumped into a chair, and started to cry, telling me how he wants to quit everything! I held his head close to my chest lovingly. He's very despairing, to the extent I've rarely seen... Is he coming to the end of his ways? He needs help. Maybe now he finally will admit it? I will ask him to see the counselor....

Miracles happen when you do not tolerate the intolerable.

Wow!

H is TRYING to "play immature games" about not going to the Counselor. Same old games. I'm not tolerating any of them. >>>IT IS TIME TO GROW UP!!! If he's not going, then I'm going!!!!... When he started redefining me like abusers do, I gave him a good strong wack of truth...it shocked him to silence!Just prior to the toughest exchange with H....I had been listening to the Itsfixable.com seminar tape...WOW! They hit the button exactly to how H is; if that man can grow up (out of a worse past)so can H, but he's got to make up his mind to do it!! After hearing this man, I looked H in the eyes with more confidence than ever!!

Renae, you are finally starting to sound like my kind of woman!

Yes, I think I'm in this for God to build me stronger. Karenna, it's not been my nature to be this tough, which is why I got run over by this man to begin with! My position of strength now is the only stance I can take with a man in such a cloud of spiritual deception and emotional immaturity. The worst part is he chooses to be unteachable! By comparison, the man on the Itsfixable tape was willing to gain knowledge and inspite of his horrid past (abuse, neglect, etc.) he learned new habits that transformed himself, his marriage, etc. He said this is the very essence of real Christianity, is recognizing our damaged state which produces animalistic tendencies (emotional, spiritual, relational dysfunctions)!! Wow! That's so true! All my H has is religion if he isn't treating his wife right and doesn't have a teachable spirit!

I discovered this weekend on the Spiritual abuse board, someone (H's denomination), an alumni of one of their colleges, has his own website full of info. against that college and the whole denomination, that they have cult abusive behavior, etc.! It says the men are angry! A letter from a woman says she was abused by her husband and the man justified it as "wife submission" (SOUNDS GREATLY like me!)I also learned the pastor's daughter was recently served divorce papers for being "too controlling"!! WOW!! I recall shortly before this happened, seeing the prayer bulletin stating that her husband had "spiritual problems"!!... See? If you don't put up with their abuse, you are considered the problem. Have they never thought, they are the problem??This is all such an eye-opener for me! H was very verbally abusive again yesterday. I need the new Counselor to help me out of this before I sink into insanity!!! Whether H shows up at counseling Wed. or not, it's got to be legal separation time. If he doesn't want that support toward recovery, then at least I've tried "leading him to water", though I can't make him drink!! Need your prayers this week! THANKS A BUNCH!!!!

Went to the new Therapist & her husband/coach. REFRESHING!! H came along and had to admit he liked them better than our previous ones. They seem to really fit us!! I am pleased with that.H enjoyed expressing his "image", then when we're driving home he's back to his old self!! How I wish they had been riding along to hear H!! GRRRRR Nothing worse than being with uplifting people, only to have H dampen the spirit and crush me on the way home. I'll definitely drive there separate from now on!! Next appointment is next Tues. I just pray we get down to the roots and bottom line soon & get H separated from me for however long it takes....I am EXHAUSTED!!!!!

H insisted I stay awake and have a talk. First he said these counselors are better than the last, but if we're going to open up the past and all the feelings, then let's get on with it and counsel every day of the week and get it over with! I will call and see if at least 2 or 3 hours a week is possible. I am all for speeding things up, 'cuz I can't take much more!.... Time for ultimatum! Then he said he doesn't think I want the marriage anyway so is there any point to doing any counseling at all. He demanded an answer of what percent I still want it to work. I told him that all depends on if you are willing to cooperate on resolving issues of the past and present and developing a mutually agreed upon plan for the future. ("threw the ball back in his court!") I said we couldn't have built this house without a blueprint, and a marriage & homelife needs one too. ........... He called me down.... how I've been nothing but problems and a complainer ALL these years and most troublesome the last 3-4 yrs, but man! how he's been so committed to my welfare! (cough, gag, get me some oxygen!!!) Sorry. Shouldn't be reacting like this but you'd think he's looking at somebody else's marriage not ours!! It just goes to show how off base he is about things!!! Oh it looks so hopeless!!!!!! Well, if these people can't get him to wake up, then it's on to Plan B, which I hope comes soon!!!!!!!!!! UGH!!!!!!!!

Going back to the the new Therapist & her coach husband tomorrow eve. Need prayer!! Thanks!!

This is just the formality, isn't it? He has to go and get told, and whether he shows up, or doesn't, or even shows up and pretends to be repentant you get to have a separation, right? At least temporary? Please?

Yes, it is a formality. The therapist knows that I need separation to prevent more damage to me & kids. We are just trying at this time to get H committed to therapy & accountability to them for growth. If he refuses to continue or grow, then at least I will be in a good position for support from this therapist & Pastor T & his church. This is the best situation we've been in yet.

The Therapist wants to meet us together once more, then me alone. I may do that, but if no change, I quit them.In the counseling session last night, it seems that she has forgotten everything I've told her by phone, and H has "danced" before them (charm, wit, intellect, righteousness) plus effectively wrapped them around his finger with his view that our problem is all due to the tragic circumstances we've been through, so we're just a normal couple impacted by many losses and grief. UGH! This is not it!!!!!! When she looked at me and said "your heart has closed and just need to open it up to H"....that's when I handed her Dr. Rinck's book, Christian Men who Hate Women. I doubt she has any understanding of this type of man, and I don't want to be encouraged to have hope until she understands his disorder. When she tells me I can have a marriage with this man, It hurts so bad because there is nothing more I want than a marriage, but H is very sick. Her job was to work with him on recognizing his problem and growing, and also help me separate. Though she had promised by phone that she could do this, I don't see her position being this anymore. It really hurt to hear her telling me I can have a marriage with this man, when I've been up and down enough roller coasters with him to know who he really is!!! I can't pay counseling fees to educate her. I'm disappointed because I needed her support toward getting us separated!

Can you tell her this?

Can you print out your MB threads here for her to read for a year's worth of background on YOU? Just do it. It won't be your fault if she doesn't read it. Just give her the opportunity to understand you.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Renae: Yes, it is a formality. The therapist knows that I need separation to prevent more damage to me & kids. We are just trying at this time to get H committed to therapy & accountability to them for growth. If he refuses to continue or grow, then at least I will be in a good position for support from this therapist & Pastor T & his church. This is the best situation we've been in yet. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Renae, I am new here in the marriage forum and this is the first time that I have read any of your postings. From what I am gathering, you are very unhappy and need to find peace and it obviuously is not with your husband. How long have you and your husband been together? Unfortunately, I am not a true Christian, but I do believe in God. First of all, you need to realize that God forgives and if you leave and break your marriage, God will forgive. You have good cause to break this marriage. It sounds like he is beyond help at this point. He will use God to try to win, but what he doesn't see is that this isn't a game or war. It sounds like to me that he just wants control over you. PLEASE don't stay for fear or for feeling sorry for him. Do what is best for you and your children. A lot of women won't leave for fear that he will kill her. But I have always believed that things happen for a reason and if my spouse kills me, then it was my time to go no matter what. We are all gonna go one day, but you are just slowly killing yourself--your spirit, your soul, and your well-being--by staying and being scared and unhappy for the rest of your life. I have a friend who has been with her husband since she was 18 and she is now 36. He has abused her both physically and verbally all these years and she looks so sad. They have 4 children together who are between the ages of 12 and 18. She doesn't have any of them and hasn't since they were little because of him, and she stays with him. I guess you can say she chose him over them and I really believe it is all for fear. No one has to be that miserable throughout their entire life. Please leave because there is life out there if you will just allow yourself to find it. If you need a friend, feel free to write at Biscayne70@juno.com. Good luck and God bless you!!!

*****[This message has been edited by Renae (edited May 16, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Renae: [B]Yes, Karenna. Thank you hadl1970...your caring heart and wisdom is so appreciated!! This man has refused all our married life (15 yrs) to use Dr. Harley's principles on a daily basis, and so disaster is inevitable and that's where we are. I never wanted it to be this way, but H has insisted it be like this. Yesterday, I spent over 2 1/2 hrs with the therapist early in the day and we were in couple counseling over 2 1/2 hrs in the evening. They are EXCELLENT therapists who fit our needs, but H is a very sick man, and he seems unwilling to invest the money it will take and only wants to get his hurt out and I'm the one who needs to be fixed. She asked me to give them a couple weeks to work with him one on one, and then we may be able to work on a separation so the damage stops. I pray I can hold out 'til then. Being in therapy with him last night was so difficult but how can I not be there? When he gives out all these twisted stories and perceptions, I feel I must hear it in order to let the Therapists know how he's twisting things!! And is he willing to change from control to mutual relationship? Is all this digging up stuff going to guarantee that? Oh, it would be so much easier to go on with my life, though I know that would be hard too.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Renae: Originally posted by Renae: Yes, Karenna. Being in therapy with him last night was so difficult but how can I not be there? When he gives out all these twisted stories and perceptions, I feel I must hear it in order to let the Therapists know how he's twisting things!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Do you think they "get it"? If you do in fact have your story in the form of all these dialogues in their hands, then you should just trust them to talk to him and challenge him one on one for a few sessions. You will get a chance to express your perspective again.And if it doesn't work out between H and the therapists and you, well, you are leaving anyway. Nothing lost. The potential gain is tremendous.

Yesterday a.m. on the phone she remarked, "He is exactly as you've said--thinks he's a good husband, etc". Yes, they get it....everything, circumstances too. They witnessed him in verbal combat against me and how I deal with it, and they intervened to tell him I was right on something. As with the last counseling situation, stirring up things is causing H to act worse toward me at home. I tried to keep things nice, superficial yesterday a.m., but he was throwing verbal daggers so I met them with strength. It is making me feel very sick inside but I am standing my ground, debating as strong as necessary--it was so intense at one point yesterday, that he was bending forward toward me and we were literally face to face, nose to nose, eye to eye!! I refuse to be overpowered anymore. He's complaining about the cost of the Therapy, how nobody deserves that kind of money and that he needed that last $375 to buy a lawnmower. I asked if he's learning anything, and he said not much. He seemed to want me to back down on this whole thing, but I firmly said you're either serious about working things out or I'll see a lawyer. He shut up. The church who referred these therapists to me said they could help with finances if we needed it at some point, but right now I think H can & should to pay some for the relational disaster he's created. He's had plenty of opportunities for less expensive routes toward change but was unwilling. I feel the therapists modeling a normal marriage/life, & I am realizing again how FAR from normal my life is....everything has gone too far into chaos. This is my last fight for this to become a marriage. Whatever happens with H, I promise myself there is no going back, no staying in chaos, and I'm going to have a real happy, growing, healthy, whole life and for the kids too!!! [This message has been edited by Renae (edited May 17, 2001).]

I pray that you will have strength and courage for whatever is before you.

Your prayers are so needed, Bleubelle...thank you!!

Woke up & can't sleep. The T made a statement in the last a.m. session (before they saw the real H in action)that we can work it out and avoid divorce for us & kids' sake. I'm troubled by this. How can I have faith anymore? I mean I would be all for H recovering to be a whole person for the first time in his life. It is quite a miracle that he's seeing a psychotherapist couple who fit the need so well. At this point, I feel more like I'm bringing him to the emergency room for his own help and dealing with my own wounds, but can't even imagine marriage to him anymore.Believing for a marriage out of this chaos is really too much stretch for me now. How does she expect me to hope and commit to this? How could he ever grow up enough for a normal marital relationship? How could I ever believe he has changed if he does change? How could I ever handle even one "slip" back into his old ways? How could I ever trust and totally fall in mad love with the man who has so violated my whole personhood all our years together? And if he only changed in part, could I be content with that?? Would God expect me to be content with partial change? Guess I give this all over to God. It is too much for me.I did hear yesterday, an awesome tape from a guy whose name I think was Keith Miller, a recovering controller. He said a 12-step group helped him deal with shame, pain, his past, etc., and he's becoming healthy & in relationships. How refreshing to hear. But it could only happen to H if he were willing. And the marriage could only come again if I were willing. UGH!!!!!!Thanks for listening!! This is such stress!

Renae: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Believing for a marriage out of this chaos is really too much stretch for me now. How does she expect me to hope and commit to this?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No offense, but you're clearly sending mixed signals to your husband (and the therapists). If you want a divorce, then just do it. Don't drag your husband through the pretense of marriage counseling because you want to divorce him and seem like you "tried".There's no doubt that if I were you, I would have very little hope, and very little energy to deal with this. But what I'm expecting (and hoping) that your counselors do is to establish a safe separation for you and the kids, and to help your husband learn to exibit new (and consistant) marital behavior that will support the kind of marriage you want.I also fully expect that you will mistrust his efforts, be angry about them, and that it might be too late. But I'll suggest that you try to follow through on this: let your husband do the work (and it's going to take at least 6 months---probably more like 12), and try to judge his progress as fairly as you can.I can't honestly say that a quick divorce will end up being any easier for you. And unless your husband makes some miraculous changes in his behavior, I can't see that staying with him will help either. But a controlled separation has the possibility of working. If these counselors are any good, and they see hope, then let them do their stuff. And if you have any misgivings about their plan (or assessment of your marriage), bring it up with them, in private.God bless.

The only thing that gives me pause is the principle that Schnarch eloquently states that we are almost always extremely well matched on some level with our spouses. He says we marry within our own level of differentiation. Others may say that we find a dysfunctional equivalent, or that our strengths match their weaknesses. You have your own weaknesses that have kept you with him all these years. The personal growth for yourself that you are hoping for will probably be even greater if you stay by him when he finally begins to heal and grow. Don't get your egotistical Taker in gear now and think you are so much better than your H. We are equal in the eyes of God, just having different graces and weaknesses. You are called to be a blessing to him. I would be the last one to blame you for leaving him, but your stoicism in the face of unanimous support for leaving ASAP has led me to believe that you will be best served by standing for your marriage.The LAST thing you want to do is punish H for getting help and beginning to see a glimmer of truth! If you could stick by him through the abuse, then you owe it to him, to yourself, and to God to stick by your vows through the therapy, repentance and growth process. Let Godly Love give you strength and patience and hope for a tender, romantic and passionate love to grow in the future.Only you know the reality of your marriage, your own contributions good and bad, and what you have tolerated to create the life you find yourself leading.I will continue in prayers for you, Renae.Love,Karenna

Renae: You have not heard from me before but I have been watching your posts. I am here to offer encouragement. My situation was similar to yours, and our personalities sound similar to. I went through what you are going through with your husband. Mine husband was full of pride too, and he really needed to change. He knew it deep down, but he also fought it very hard. I believe your husband is acting out because you have changed, and you aren't playing the same game and backing down any more. I read somewhere along the way about relationship dynamics that when one person changes in a relationship there is a lot of opposition and pressure for them to "change back," and that is what you are up against. Hang in there with your boundaries. Make it clear what you need and expect from him and hold your ground. I know it is scary because he may escalate, may leave, etc. In my case, my husband (with the help of therapy) came around and realized what a real man is like. I can honestly tell you I have a new man now. It was very painful and very scary while we went through it, and it would have been easier to jump ship or to change back, but with God's help I was able to maintain. It really sounds like the pressure is on him right now, and it could go either way, but as long as he is going to these new counselors, hang in there!It is really time for you to be strong. I know you can do it since you have come this far.

Hi Mariesue! Thanks for sharing! K and Karenna, thank you again. My!!...all your messages are interesting. Yeah, that's it...there's a sort of pull on me to stay with him through this therapy. Maybe it is God. I do know if it weren't for me, he wouldn't be doing the therapy and would also quit if I were to leave him. I had to set a strong boundary with him yesterday, in fact, that if he quits now, I'm seeing a lawyer. He shut up. I am still very desperately needing to go and this is a painful turn-around for me to make now to stay and hope yet again. It feels insane. But I must give it a chance.Thanks again for the support!!

Had another counseling session & I'm struggling again to keep believing in their ability to detect what this man is doing!! I feel she corrects me on stuff when she should be blowing the whistle on what H is doing. Sometimes they think they know what is going on and I tell them that is not it, but "this" is it. I'm afraid they can't see it! So I tried harder to explain....and things got quiet... especially as I brought up H's spiritually abusive stuff.You see, what worries me is her whole counseling mindset is that your parents/family life causes your reactions now. Well, that is true to a point, and may certainly be what she and her H are all about, but this is not the whole game with H and I!!! She's telling me in front of H that I need to deal with my family of origin issues (this plays into H's sickness wanting to blame me & my parents!!!)when I have long ago dealt with that,their belief system, the affects on me, etc and gone beyond that!!!!! I told her the problem for me is how H's ways have affected me year after year!!.... Then to sit there and watch H bragging up himself again, story after story.... !!! It's about all I can take. It is too painful to hear his perceptions, justifications, etc.... How can I believe H will ever wake up to his ways?? Do I dare let them counsel him alone?? I don't know if they can handle him. They want us to do the mechanical talk of mirror back what you hear, etc. I tried to do that years ago. He only goes in circles and makes everything my fault. Will he do it now because they told him too? And so what? He will just change his story the next day anyway. Well, I think I'll do the lifestyle assessment and let H do his, get an analysis of that, and then decide (God help me!) when enough of this is enough.

I'm sorry if this is too blunt, Renae, but your husband sounds like a real, actual nut, not just a poor confused guy with issues. Has he ever been evaluated by a psychiatrist? He really sounds like he needs help / medication.I'm especially tired of hearing of people using the Bible as a weapon to judge others and rationalize their own behavior. Where's the "do unto others" in all of this? As for anybody fond of using all these direct Bible quotes as commands for how (usually other people!) are to run their life - do they understand that at least the New Test. was anthologized from oral history over 100 years after Christ lived, and that all texts of O.T. and N.T. were translated many, many, many times from other languages and edited over and over before the versions we are familiar with appeared? Geez, enough! Meaning, God also gave you the gift of free will along with responsiblity for your own life...Further, some of your posts sound like the almighty is speaking directly to your husband!?! Hello, megalomania?I am very, very surprised that you haven't filed for divorce seeking sole custody. What are you waiting for? Why have you stayed so long? I guess I assume that you've stayed because the relationship is working on SOME level for you...With best wishes for your continued courage and strength - Gobyfish

You know, I think gobyfish might be onto a good idea with the evaluations. What about the possibility of two thorough psychological evaluations? I would say they'd need to be done by a well-qualified Ph.D. level psychological examiner - no way, more than likely, you'd find one of these in a religious setting.If nothing else, it would help you see yourself. It is possible that you could have them done, neither of you hear each other's results but have the results forwarded on to the counselors, then ask them if - based on what they see - there is any way, given the nature of both of you, you can hope for a restoration of your marriage.That said, I do believe God can do miracles - but He can't do them with people's hearts unless allowed to do so.

Renae:I know I sound like a broken record, but you are not responsible for your husband, you are not his caretaker or saviour.What disturbed me was a couple of posts ago, you said if you didn't continue the counseling, you were afraid he might not go......so what?This is no longer your worry...you are still more concerned about him than you are to love yourself.Renae....it's time to bail out and let go. You are only prolonging God being able to deal with your husband, which in my humble opinion, can't happen until you are totally removed from the picture.[censored]

I met with the therapist... I have regained faith in her and a clearer understanding of the process and techniques. She really does have a good, deep, complete grasp on all levels (spiritual, psychological, emotional, etc.)of this mess, but especially the ROOT--shamed-based. We will meet once more as a "couples" counseling next week, I will complete the assessment test, then they are going to try to get H alone for assessment and counsel. After all I told her, she defines him as nasty, very shame-based, codependent, controlling, abusive, majorly fearing rejection, having unresolved grief,etc..... I told her I have been near insanity with him and wondered if he was totally psychotic or what!! Apparently she knows where the line is on that. We talked of where the line is of helping right versus enabling his bad behavior, etc. But her advise is not to separate right now, that me being part of this is his only hope of real life. But I should definitely leave the house if he becomes physically abusive (go to the other house). She sees potential of this really turning around, if they and I do as planned and he cooperates. She hopes H will come to Pastor T's church too. She says H can be a different man in 4 months and we going a new direction over the next year..... I have stopped fixing him. He's in God's hands and in the hands of the best therapists. I will continue toward the focus on my own healing, regain creativity, etc. and give the kids the mom they so need, etc. She thinks their stomach problems (which started from flu viruses in the last two years) are continuing to be terribly symptomatic due to the "sickness" in our marriage/family. God help us!!I really enjoyed a tape by Keith Miller-- a recovering controller!! It fits H and my situation so well! Thanks for your continued prayers. This is HARD!!!!!! [This message has been edited by Renae (edited May 25, 2001).]

Renae - What are the symptoms of the stress-related stomach problems your kids have? I was wondering because I suffered for years with stomach and digestive problems stemming from family stress. There may be some non-prescription easy answers to alleviate same.I'm glad to hear you're going to concentrate on you and your kids while waiting to see if your H is willing to change. You sound like a very generous person.gobyfish [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

What did you do for your symptoms? Were every other physical causes ruled out by doctors?Our 2 kids have nausea constantly that gets very bad at different times of the day, like they never recovered from the flu. Since it started after a flu shot and the flu, I think it is all from that and do not agree with the counselor that family stress is much involved. One daughter went from that week of flu to a year of nausea with alternating days of diarrhea & constipation, we ran all kinds of tests on her, finally she started gagging & pain near her rib & it got so bad she ended up in the hospital for exploratory surgery-- found her appendix in an upright position rubbing on the colon & ribcage! Surgeon said it is common for appendix trouble following a severe flu. Once it was removed, all symptoms quit except for this nausea!... It was getting better by the end of last summer, but in the fall she caught another flu, and it set her back in recovery. Specialists call it N.U.D. (non-ulcerative dyspepsia) and have no cure. (It's been 2 yrs of this)The other child has had a year of only nausea but it shows no sign of getting better. I keep praying, trying to believe for their healing! I do not want them to have to live their whole life like this. I'm currently trying special enzyme pill for the first daughter, because I saw a tv ad saying that if you have stomach trouble accompanied by cold, clammy hands & feet, that is a digestive matter and these enzymes will help. Sometimes these pills do relieve her occasional hands & feet problem but don't seem to relieve the nausea.

My chiropractor would think there is a chance that their could be a spinal related cause.I, personally, can tell you that my body has a definite physical reaction to stress. And it can be pretty painful. But as soon as I deal with the cause of the stress, the pain goes away. It feels like a knife turning inside that triangle fight below my sternum and between the halves of my ribcage.It well could be stress.Do you honestly feel like you can last 4 months? That is after school starts. Might it be easier on the children for you to move before school starts?

Yes, it's very possible that stress adds to it..... I'm currently checking with a chiropractor to see what he can do.Oh, I know...4 months?????!!!.... And I just got through another episode minutes ago having H fly off with anger at me AGAIN, blaming, shaming, accusing, misjudging me.... !!!! He also complained he can't (or doesn't want to) afford the counselor. I told him the church offered to help, but he said no to that. I told him firmly, of things he can do with finances but "I can't wait any longer for resolve to things!!!....You're not going to shove stuff under the rugs anymore!!!...or would you rather I leave and take the kids?...You'd better keep on with this counselor and that's it...right NOW!!!" GRRRR Did I make myself clear????!!!!This counselor told me the same line as the last counselor that I need to be strong. Well, how can I get any stronger? A person can only take so much and I'm beyond that. AFter what I went through with him this morning, maybe she still doesn't realize how terribly harrassing he is? I tried to get a cassette taping this morning, but H caught it... I wish so badly she could have heard this!!!!!!!!..... [This message has been edited by Renae (edited May 25, 2001).]

I've just read the past threads on this particular forum and I'm dumbfounded, to say the least. I'm not a "good" Christian and have little knowledge of the Bible, be it the New Testament or the Old Testament, but I DO know that your H is a hypocrite. I do not know what Christian demonination that your hubby prefers to practice, but he appears to have been brainwashed. In fact, his religious thoughts and ideas seem cult-like. Perhaps a mind defragmentation is necessary.Best of luck to you Renae......you need it, honey!------------------ Time heals all wounds as long as you DON'T pick at them![This message has been edited by GeezLouise (edited May 27, 2001).]

Thank you, GeezLouise. Yes!..."cult-like" and a mind-defragmentation would be great!! I don't know how these therapists think they can get through to him! Maybe they know how to deprogram somebody??!!! Well, I certainly know I can't fix him-- I've given that up. I really FEAR doing the couple counseling this week. She calls it "stirring the pot", but it frustrates me beyond toleration! I think she said it will be the last time, & then they take him alone. Pray I can be stronger this ONE MORE TIME and keep my balance!From the moment I awakened today, it felt like a slap in the face..."NO!!! NOT ONE MORE DAY OF THIS!!!...not one more week!!!!!..... But right now I remember that in the last 3 yrs I have grown "wings" and anytime now, all I have to do is flex them and fly!!!!!!!! No more oppression on my spirit!!...F R E E !!!!!!

What are the words to that song?...."I believe I can fly. I believe I can touch the sky. Think about it every night and day. Spread my wings and fly away..... See me walking through that open door...."

Yes. You can. What doesn't kill you will only make you better or stronger. The catch is that you and your soul can be killed off little bits at a time. Renae, your job is to recapture the fragments of your soul that you have already left behind. Journaling helps with that. You are responsible for your own soul. Leave his to him and his god. Whatever that may be.

You're so right, Karenna!! I'm really struggling here! (But we missed a week of counseling due to illness) We're going back tonight!... Please pray!! Thanks a million for the support!!!!!

HI Renae,I could not resist commenting here. After quickly reading through all these posts I had so many reactions. I'll get to the point ok?1. You shouldn't have to pray that your counselor hear your tape recorded conversations between you and your husband so there is "proof" of what is occurring dynamically in your relationship. Your posts say it all - You are being driven crazy by this man, and your children are suffering, believe me. How do I know these things? Well, a. I worked at a domestic violence shelter for 2 years and counseled women and children in your situation, b. Counselors who truely understand the dynamics of domestic abuse also know that couples counseling is dangerous because of the unequal power balance and possible retaliation of the abuser towards the abused for things disclosed in the sessions. Couples counseling is not a recommended form of treatment under any circumstances when there is abuse in a relationship. There are anger management programs for abusers but the abuser has to WANT treatment. c. I have been married for 20 years to an abusive man who hit me once in our marriage when I was pregnant. Throughout our whole marriage, my h has been an abuser.The last two years of our marriage have been hell on earth due to verbal and emotional abuse. In March, my daughter, age 13, was taken to mental health because she cut her arms in 49 different places. She sees a therapist weekly and is on antidepressants. The rage that she vented about her father was unbelievable. She had been complaining about stomach aches and withdrawning prior to this incident in March. She hates her father. She refuses to speak to him since two christmas' ago when he raged at her for half an hour over a soda he thought was his even though she paid for it. When she was in deep depression and at risk for suicide, I pleaded with him to be kind and to refrain from arguing with me around her. I feared for her life. One time when she was unable to get out of her bed due to depression, he came in her room and started humming the theme to the exorcist. It made me sick to my stomach. Another time he told her if only she would be more disciplined and work (at age 13!) this would not have happened to her.My son, age 19, also went off the deep end two weeks prior to my daughter. He left without telling us, went to a rave party, took an overdose of LSD and ended up in the hospital for 3 days. He almost died from heart failure. What is interesting here is that both my kids had been pleading with me to divorce their dad. Maybe because their older and see clearly. Anyway, the ironic thing about this is that they both fell apart when my husband and I decided to work hard on our marriage (yet again,) and we were both doing well together.In april, my daughter and I left for three days due to threats of harm against me and my property.I am filing divorce papers next week for sure. It took major affects on my children for me to act. I couldn't seem to do it for myself. I was completely hooked into the "hope" cycle and believed it was my responsibility to "Fix" the marriage. I now know it takes two. My h bailed out of therapy after two sessions with two different therapist saying they were against him. Unlike your counselor, mine could see, just from what he said, that he was an abuser and they held him accountable. He hated that!! Then, at the great weekly pressure of his mom who is a fundamentalist christian, my h started going to church. He got baptized then promptly stopped going. Said he was convicted about his porn use and no longer wanted to go. You see how abusers can not be responsible for their own actions? How can we have mutual agreements with them? How can the marriage improve with no accountability or desire to change. My h told our last therapist he is "practically perfect" Those were his words!!!Guess I just had to speak up. I'm dealing with the same thing. The pain of letting go of a dead relationship was so difficult but I have managed to get to the other side. You can too. I really fear for you and your children, Renae. I really do. Please take good care of yourself!!!

Renae:After reading hopefulheart's response, how can you continue to 'dance with the enemy'?I know it is none of my business, but I just don't understand why you continue to enable your husband's behavior.When we were praying this morning, I came to your name and when I began to pray for you, I became frustrated and simply told the Lord, I don't know how to pray anymore concerning you.I implore you to seriously, seriously consider what hopefulheart has written...[censored]

Thank you Hopefulheart and [censored]!! The therapists had to cancel our appointment last week, plus H is complaining about the cost,and I am feeling desperately impatient with all of it, like I'm at "emotional emergency" status!!!! I e-mailed the therapists a couple days ago, telling them that they must bite down soon with their "medicine" for H because I can't hang on much longer. They told me truthfully that there is noone else in H's life who can bring him to this opportunity for help which he so desperately needs. H would not get help for himself. If I leave now, he will go on in his sick state & unaccountable to anyone. So, I hang on a bit longer. But I told the therapists I can't stay past the end of June or mid-July, for my own sanity,as well as I need to give the kids time to get used to separation & we get organized before school starts. This is where I'm at now. Thanks for your prayer support, though I know that is frustrating! [This message has been edited by Renae (edited June 10, 2001).]

Dear Renae,As you know, I support you and am praying for you every day. I applaud your staying in this in order to help your H. Just be careful. You and your children come first, then your H.Prayerfully, Gogie

THANK YOU, Gogie, for understanding and your prayers at this critical time for me!! This is my last sacrificially loving gift to H, leading him to therapists who understand his shamebased issues and know how to deal with it. If H refuses to accept the gift, at least I have offered it, and can stand before my God someday and say I have done this...all I could possibly do!

Renae, what you are doing for husband is admirable but the example you are setting for your children I am unsure about.You might consider reading some of Jeff Van Vondren's stuff - "Families Where Grace Is In Place" "Tired of Trying to Measure Up", and he has one on spiritual abuse.Start now making your plans. You'll need to know where you're headed in terms of residence, utilities, etc.

Yes, I have read those. Thanks, Bleubelle!

Tonight my H and I will go back to therapy. It is ALL in God's hands now. I would like to bring up how he acted last night to me and with the kids. I confronted him last night on part of it, but he looked me straight in the face and denied it.

Therapy last night was TOUGH!! TOUGH!! TOUGH!! H finally showed his real colors in front of them. I'm wondering what they are thinking, especially how he blew up at them! She asked me to call her today.I am still intact, I think, after being in the war zone, but it was HARD!! I have a special hair appointment scheduled for this afternoon--I will need that to relax and be pampered after what I've been through!! If I ever needed a hairdresser it is now!! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

How is your hair, Renae?

Can you update us on a monthly basis?Are you Safe?Are you Healthy?Are your children safe and healthy? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

Hi! We're safe, physically speaking. Tonight H & I go back to therapy. I need them to take him alone SOON (like NOW!!) as the Therapists had promised me before, and get H on a personal recovery journey. I am really irked by this "couple" counseling stuff! Like, they seem to bounce stuff off of me that should go direct to H. I feel that only feeds H's mindset that I'm the whole problem. If indirect messages are given to keep him coming, well, I doubt he applies these to himself.Also, she seems to "understand" when I've talked to her alone, but in her e-mails or in the couple therapy, I get the strong sense that the Therapists view us as a normal married pair who just need to affirm each other!!!! GRRRRRRRRR!!!!!! As J.K.Miller says in his book Compelled to Control, couples counseling doesn't work with Controllers! I asked her if she's read Miller, and she says yes, assuring me she knows what she's doing. You can't build marital relationship (urge us to hug, communicate authentically & intimately, etc, as the Therapists have been doing) until this man is reparented into a mature adult and stops his abusive, dysfunctional, controller behaviors!!! We can't hug, etc....that's just forcing us to accommodate each other & patch up things on the surface! Fact is, right now, he doesn't even want to love me up because he hates the non-controllable Renae I am now, and how can I love up a man who abuses me!!! UGH!!!!Miller says on his tape that many therapists are NOT trained in resolving inner shame issues. I feel therapists don't know how to counsel abusers & their no-longer-codependent victim spouses!!![This message has been edited by Renae (edited July 18, 2001).]

Renae, I am thankful for your physical safety. But I am still concerned for you and your children. You are never far from my thoughts and prayers.

Thank you, bleubelle! I feel a warm hug in your words.Last night was tough. H told the counselors--"she says I don't love her but I do!" Then he sits there that whole hour and cuts me down one swing after another, mercilessly! H told the counselors--Renae is manipulating you...she's nice in therapy but at home she's this terrible-tempered, out-of-control person! He said I re-write the story of our lives in distorted ways. He rattled on and on about how we used to be intimate in conversation, but in the last three years, he's been trying everything but I'm the bad person who builds walls out of nowhere to keep him from being intimate. He proudly proclaimed how he is so balanced in all his beliefs and ways, then told partial stories from our history, leaving out the bad things he did, distorting details to make himself look good and me bad. UGH!!!!!!!!! Oh well, I'm not surprised. But then, after treating me like that, a couple hours later, he sits here conducting such Godly family devotions, laughing good naturedly, talked so intelligently.... UGH!!! (The comparison of the two sides of him makes my stomach churn!)He's been trying to do devotions for the past week but often uses it to preach his mindset and even to berate me in front of the kids. I told the therapist about this.Tonight when he was verbally berating me in front of the kids (not during devotions)... I left the house. I called from another location and told him that was verbal abuse and I've told you before not to talk to me like that, esp. in front of the kids!! Then I hung up the phone so he could not spew out any remarks. When I returned home, he sternly rebuked me for hanging up the phone on him! I need to tell the therapist I think it is time they counsel him alone and I can separate with the kids. Prior to this "therapy abuse" etc....I was trying harder to get my exercise routine and dieting back on track.....now I feel drained again and nervously eating...but I've got to fight this....Thanks for your support! ~Renae [This message has been edited by Renae (edited July 20, 2001).]

You are not doing an intelligent thing by participating in the couples therapy. Your presence tells them that you ARE an normal couple because you would not be there if you weren't.The imbalance of power has now corrupted the entire process. Now these people may need to be replaced. I don't know.You have paid your dues. What are you waiting for? The second coming?

I don't get it what these therapists are doing either! She told me to stay for now. She wanted me at counseling together until they could get him alone. It is dragging on. She had assured me she knew, was experienced with this type of man.... But then I get the suspicion she's treating us as a normal couple when she recently e-mailed: "I am sorry that it is not going so well for the family right now. I am just experienced enough to know that it takes "two to tango," and that is why I have zeroed in on both of you. Each of you have responsibility with where the marriage is at this point." WHAT?????? Is she saying this just to keep me coming? Or is she unaware that the victim is not responsible for the abuser's behavior??

Renae, you are responsible for keeping yourself, as well as the children safe. If it is not a safe environment, you need to leave. Plan B. If it is safe, then continue the counseling. I pray that you and your children are safe and stay safe.

There is no abuser where there is no victim. You need to be in solo counseling to learn how NOT to be the victim. Not offering yourself up on a platter for continued victimization. Your beliefs are still in the way of your protecting your girls and yourself from severe emotional and spiritual abuse.Your therapist is correct in that it takes two to tango. But she doesn't seem to know enough psychology to know how that is working in a case of severe oppression like yours. You will need to break the cycle all on your own. Time to take responsibility for your own life instead of handing it over to these inept therapists.

Thank you Raskal & Karenna.... I agree....I'm feeling VERY LOW today...interesting you would use the word "oppression", as that's exactly what I feel...It is so heavy....I can't go on like this. I'm not convinced these therapists can work the immediate magic with him that I need. I have "led H to water" but I can't make him drink; if he wants help he can work with them alone, but I feel a desperate need to move out...GOOOOOOOOO!!!!...I'm afraid I'll lose my sanity if I don't. And I don't like how he is with the kids either....Enough.Thanks for your support & prayers.[This message has been edited by Renae (edited July 25, 2001).]