Things are moving slow (by your view) here but steady...<P>I talked with the director of a Christian shelter but it is too far away so that my kids would have to change school, etc... <BR>I don't want to do that. (When we go, I think it is time for a permanent home, anyway...we have already been in transition too long, with H not letting us make this house into home.) Counselor said the shelter's legal helpt is no longer enough now...she gave me the name of a Christian attorney to get my rights protected if H continues to threaten & pursue divorce.... <P>Counselor is furious about H's recent ways. After H has cooperated with me in getting tax business done, she wants the kids & I to have a place to go (to avoid his anger), and she will go with me to H's pastor and get him involved in major confrontation of H! She says we cannot avoid this important "Biblical step" if H is going to pursue divorce. You see, H thinks I am of a bad spirit ("can't trust you with business if something should happen to me" he says), and he says I'm standing in the way of his pursuit of "ministry"!...He thinks he can put me away and his church will accept his involvement there!...The sin must be exposed!...(This is scarey, but I think she's right...don't want others hurt by H appearing to be so righteous but underneathe is decay,immaturity, abuse....) <P>Prayer support needed!<BR>

Just so you are safe, you get the girls, and you cover every eventuality.<P>Have you printed out these MB threads dealing with your situation and shown them to Counselor or Pastor? Don't you think it might be a good idea?<P>Prayers rising!<P>Love,<P>Karenna

Renae?

Hi Karena,<BR>Counselor wanted me to find out about doing an order of protection, so I went to an attorney yesterday. He says that is only for if you are in iminent (sp?) danger, namely physical abuse or threat of it, afraid for you life, like he could kill you. He doesn't think it fits for my situation. He said bluntly, these controller/abusers never change, so protect your kids & yourself by just divorcing him. He said, contrary to what H says, that he could get me full custody and that the Court would give us the house and send H out, that the Court wants the kids to keep their home, neighbors, etc...keep it stable as can be while parents separate.<BR>He said he can make the finances work to support us. <P>I'm not sure I swallow all of that. I believe in Harley's Plan B. But H told me if I leave, he's going to divorce me, that he won't allow separation!! Ugh! And if I leave with the kids, maybe I won't be able to get the house if it comes to divorce? I don't know. Yet on one emotional side of me, I have too many painful memories here and it still feels like his house. Maybe a clean break...moving is the way to start a new life for me and the kids.?? <P>I am torn. I don't know what to do. <P>The kids wanted to have a friend over this weekend, and H said no. He thinks they can go on for years and never have friends over?<BR>They have already lost friends because of this! I tried to tell H this, but he does not understand because he says he never had friends over when he was young. Karenna, I can't let this go on.<P>I feel backed into a corner, unable to procrastinate any longer. It's decision time. <P>Help!<P>Feeling very weary,<BR>Renae<BR>

Renae,<P>I would probably suggest that you go the way your lawyer has suggested. You would file for divorce, your husband would need to move out. I just can't possibly imagine that he's going to get better in a short period (3-6 months)---and if he's not willing to leave of his own accord for a Plan B separation, then I'd suggest the divorce filing to get him out of the house.<P>It'll still take time, and eventually, you may decide to move yourself. But I'd try to keep the kids in the house (and yourself) first. If your husband immediately gets to counseling and starts showing signs of improvement, you can slow the divorce (or remarry)---but I frankly think that scenario is very unlikely to happen.

(((((hugs to you Renae))))) I am currently in a similar situation......it is hard....you alone know the choices you have to make....God will take care of you....<P>btw what was the address of that spiritual abuse website???<P>good luck and take care of yourself and your kids....<P>peace to us all<P>stilldreamin

((((((hugs to you too, stilldreamin))))))<BR>and thank you for the support! <P>The spiritual abuse website is at <A HREF="http://www.sosa.org." TARGET=_blank>www.sosa.org.</A> Only caution is that you can run into all types over there. For example, last summer a group of Universalists came suggesting they were abused by Christian doctrine; I don't agree with that. But there is good support too. <P>

Hire that lawyer and work very closely with him. Sounds like he's a really good one. Your higher obligation is to protect your children in the long term, not to protect your husband, his legal situation, or his <I>"marriage"</I>. <P>(Here you need a physical event within 30 days to get an order of domestic violence protection.)<P><BR>{{{{{{{{{{{{Renae}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Has anyone heard from Renae? Is she OK?

Thank you for thinking of me, bluebelle. <BR>I am journeying into more awareness....<BR>regarding this belief system of H's church and my roots in it also. Specifically,<BR>(1) I'm frustrated that Counselor's pastor just dropped H because he wasn't humble enough, etc. I think this is a "law-based" religous way, that makes a judgement against a person, then leaves them in that condemnation. Such religious counsel does not lead H out of his religious baggage, shame sickness, emotional bankrupcy, and carry him to the path of grace, wisdom, individual healing, and to a healthy marital relationship. They judged H, then walked away leaving him unaccountable and continuing to mistreat me. This is not God's way of helping people, though they would claim they are more Biblical in counseling than psychology. <P>(2) Counselor, too, keeps telling me to respond in a Godly manner, asserting truth to H, & only leave temporarily for physical safety or get an order of protection if there's physical abuse. There seems to be no leaving for spiritual, mental or emotional abuse...She thinks I can be so strong all the time, following the guidelines of her favorite book, The Excellent Wife by Martha Peace. I do not think this book fits someone in my situation!! <P>Every time I've picked up that book, it "triggers" me emotionally and spiritually causing me more misery. It sets a standard that God expects me to stay here being endlessly strong with H, and if I can't I'm less of a Christian. It says if you are overwhelmed you are sinning! I disagree! At just the thought of all the abuse Jesus knew was before him (Cross,etc), He was in agony, to the degree of sweating!! And He was at the same time in prayer and being strengthened by angels! His emotional agony was not sin,for He is God!!!... and I don't think my agony with an abusive man is sin either. Right??? <P>The book even says that if you desire a better companionship/intimacy with your spouse, that this is idolatrous!!! I dare say, this is the theology that H has, that I should get all my needs met in God!! My guess is that M.Peace would be against Harley's philosophy of need-meeting in marriage. THis theology is so anti-relationship!! <P>(3) I have concluded this law-based fundamentalist counseling does not help H nor someone like me, both of struggling to shake off the binders of legalism. Also, It doesn't help me, who has struggled in the past with enmeshment with H's dysfunction and an endless trying to "fix it" (codependent) mentality. <P>(4) This book is like H's religion of ignoring your feelings....and you can see where it got H!!...into total emotional immaturity & bankrupcy. <P>I now doubt that this is Biblical counseling. I am struggling but coming to believe, there is grace for H when he is ready, and grace from God for me to leave when it is His time and I am ready.<P><BR>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited March 26, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited March 26, 2001).]

Counselor suggested we meet this week to discuss the book and homework she gave me, but I declined, not only because I'm too busy to go right now, but I think from now on I'm done with that religious philosophy and it's going to be just me and God. <P><p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited March 26, 2001).]

I don't think the author of that book has her head on straight. What about so many things we read about in the Bible - like the predominant topic, LOVE?<P>Renae, take care of yourself and the girls. And find another counselor. And if the h doesn't like it - phooey on him. (BTW, I read a wonderful book one time "The Transformation of the Inner Man" by a married couple with the last name Sandford. Not about marriage but about inner healing or spiritual healing.)<BR>

Renae:<P>Good to hear from you again! Continuing to pray for you.<P>I just have one question? Why do you continue to go back to that counselor? You should have dumped her long ago. <P>I can't understand why you continue to subject yourself to your husband's abuse and to the unwise counsel coming from your counselor ???<P>I totally disagree with the premise of "her favorite book" and to me, emotional abuse/abandonment and verbal abuse (on a continuing basis) is as much grounds for leaving as sexual abuse and/or sexual unfaithfulness.<P>Renae....you must, must follow your heart and while I know the Bible says "In a multitude of counselors there is safety (or wisdom)".....the flip side of that verse is: "in a multitude of counselors there can also come confusion" (everybody wants you to follow their agenda).<P>I just can't believe you are still with him and the longer you stay, the longer you prolong his deliverance (if he will ever face up to himself).<P>[censored] from Texas<BR>

Yes, bleubelle, and that books sounds interesting!<P>[censored]: >Why do you continue to go back to that counselor? <<P>I've got ties to that denomination since I was a kid, and inspite of all I've come to disagree with them on and dropped out of H's church several months ago, I still have ties inside me.... I guess I had to experience this counseling to hit it home harder that these types can't help H and I. <p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited March 26, 2001).]

Renae - I know it's your life but I would suggest you consider a counselor with ties to a different congregation or a different denomination. <P>I hope that it is obvious to you that there is no safety with this man, spiritually, physically, or emotionally, if you have been telling us the truth. You need someone who can help you reach the emotional strength to move on with YOUR life.<P>The Sandfords book, by the way, deals with inner or spiritual healing. YOu might find it helpful in healing your heart.

Lost Counselor today, officially. Another stone turned, [censored]. Though it was for the best, I still feel bummed.<BR>

Need continued prayer. Thanks! <p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited April 04, 2001).]

Old song coming to mind....<BR>"Peace, peace, wonderful peace, coming down from the Father .... Sweep over my spirit forever I pray in fathomless billows of.... <BR>Thanks, Holy Spirit....<P>He's holding my hand....He will walk with me today<BR>.....will walk with me each step....<BR>

I know losing Counselor was the best thing, but I felt so alone... That last phone talk, she was real tough with me, exposing her REAL beliefs, saying I can go temporarily to a shelter but do not have any Biblical grounds for separation or divorce (only permissible if there's adultery), that the purpose of her counsel has been to make me be strong and stay married to H. She shamed me, that I am wrong to want any approval from H. Isn't acceptance part of loving? She's getting this from that Martha Peace book and that denomination of H's. It was so hurtful to feel from her that God expects far more of me than I am able with H. I decided she must have a different god than my God, a Bible with missing parts. Hers is all law. Mine has grace too. Most shocking was the fact she is aware of harm to the kids, and still she says I must stay with H and just tell the kids about abuse before they are adults so they can avoid a marriage like this!!! UGH! Time to part ways with her.<P>I had a good talk/cry with God and asked for the next step....I remembered then, a year ago, the abuse counselor told me to go get support from Pastor T, who I happen to know. I think now is the time for that. I must contact him soon.<P>

Renae:<P>Lord knows, I'm one of the biggest proponents of saving a marriage around here. And I'm not even sure you should divorce yet---I think separation is the first step.<P>But to be counseling with a counselor who encourages you to physically stay in an abusive marriage, so long as there's no adultery involved---that's just downright scary. I'd urge you to find a counselor who can balance your safety and sanity with a plan that might allow your husband to seek help and reconcile with you. With God, everything is possible. There's no Biblical law that prohibits separation, so don't let that deter you.