I discovered this weekend on the Spiritual abuse board,<BR>someone (H's denomination), an alumni of one of their colleges, has his own website full of info. against that college and the whole denomination, that they have cult abusive behavior, etc.! It says the men are angry! A letter from a woman says she was abused by her husband and the man justified it as "wife submission" (SOUNDS GREATLY like me!)<P>I also learned the pastor's daughter was recently served divorce papers for being "too controlling"!! WOW!! I recall shortly before this happened, seeing the prayer bulletin stating that her husband had "spiritual problems"!!... See? If you don't put up with their abuse, you are considered the problem. Have they never thought, they are the problem??<P>This is all such an eye-opener for me! H was very verbally abusive again yesterday. I need the new Counselor to help me out of this before I sink into insanity!!! Whether H shows up at counseling Wed. or not, it's got to be legal separation time. If he doesn't want that support toward recovery, then at least I've tried "leading him to water", though I can't make him drink!! <P>Need your prayers this week! THANKS A BUNCH!!!!

Went to the new Therapist & her husband/coach. REFRESHING!!<BR>H came along and had to admit he liked them better than our previous ones. They seem to really fit us!! I am pleased with that.<P>H enjoyed expressing his "image", then when we're driving home he's back to his old self!! How I wish they had been riding along to hear H!! GRRRRR Nothing worse than being with uplifting people, only to have H dampen the spirit and crush me on the way home. I'll definitely drive there separate from now on!! <P>Next appointment is next Tues. I just pray we get down to the roots and bottom line soon & get H separated from me for however long it takes....I am EXHAUSTED!!!!!

H insisted I stay awake and have a talk. First he said these counselors are better than the last, but if we're going to open up the past and all the feelings, then let's get on with it and counsel every day of the week and get it over with! I will call and see if at least 2 or 3 hours a week is possible. I am all for speeding things up, 'cuz I can't take much more!.... Time for ultimatum! <BR> <BR>Then he said he doesn't think I want the marriage anyway so is there any point to doing any counseling at all. He demanded an answer of what percent I still want it to work. I told him that all depends on if you are willing to cooperate on resolving issues of the past and present and developing a mutually agreed upon plan for the future. ("threw the ball back in his court!") I said we couldn't have built this house without a blueprint, and a marriage & homelife needs one too. ...........<BR> <BR>He called me down.... how I've been nothing but problems and a complainer ALL these years and most troublesome the last 3-4 yrs, but man! how he's been so committed to my welfare! (cough, gag, get me some oxygen!!!) Sorry. Shouldn't be reacting like this but you'd think he's looking at somebody else's marriage not ours!! It just goes to show how off base he is about things!!! Oh it looks so hopeless!!!!!! Well, if these people can't get him to wake up, then it's on to Plan B, which I hope comes soon!!!!!!!!!! UGH!!!!!!!!<P><BR> <BR>

Going back to the the new Therapist & her coach husband tomorrow eve. Need prayer!! Thanks!!

This is just the formality, isn't it? He has to go and get told, and whether he shows up, or doesn't, or even shows up and pretends to be repentant you get to have a separation, right? At least temporary? Please?

Yes, it is a formality. The therapist knows that I need separation to prevent more damage to me & kids. We are just trying at this time to get H committed to therapy & accountability to them for growth. If he refuses to continue or grow, then at least I will be in a good position for support from this therapist & Pastor T & his church. This is the best situation we've been in yet. <P>

The Therapist wants to meet us together once more, then me alone. I may do that, but if no change, I quit them.<P>In the counseling session last night, it seems that she has forgotten everything I've told her by phone, and H has "danced" before them (charm, wit, intellect, righteousness) plus effectively wrapped them around his finger with his view that our problem is all due to the tragic circumstances we've been through, so we're just a normal couple impacted by many losses and grief. UGH! This is not it!!!!!! <P>When she looked at me and said "your heart has closed and just need to open it up to H"....that's when I handed her Dr. Rinck's book, Christian Men who Hate Women. I doubt she has any understanding of this type of man, and I don't want to be encouraged to have hope until she understands his disorder. When she tells me I can have a marriage with this man, It hurts so bad because there is nothing more I want than a marriage, but H is very sick. <P>Her job was to work with him on recognizing his problem and growing, and also help me separate. Though she had promised by phone that she could do this, I don't see her position being this anymore. It really hurt to hear her telling me I can have a marriage with this man, when I've been up and down enough roller coasters with him to know who he really is!!! I can't pay counseling fees to educate her. <BR>I'm disappointed because I needed her support toward getting us separated!<P> <P>

Can you tell her this?

Can you print out your MB threads here for her to read for a year's worth of background on YOU? Just do it. <P>It won't be your fault if she doesn't read it. Just give her the opportunity to understand you.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Renae:<BR><B>Yes, it is a formality. The therapist knows that I need separation to prevent more damage to me & kids. We are just trying at this time to get H committed to therapy & accountability to them for growth. If he refuses to continue or grow, then at least I will be in a good position for support from this therapist & Pastor T & his church. This is the best situation we've been in yet. <P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Renae,<BR>I am new here in the marriage forum and this is the first time that I have read any of your postings. From what I am gathering, you are very unhappy and need to find peace and it obviuously is not with your husband. How long have you and your husband been together? Unfortunately, I am not a true Christian, but I do believe in God. First of all, you need to realize that God forgives and if you leave and break your marriage, God will forgive. You have good cause to break this marriage. It sounds like he is beyond help at this point. He will use God to try to win, but what he doesn't see is that this isn't a game or war. It sounds like to me that he just wants control over you. PLEASE don't stay for fear or for feeling sorry for him. Do what is best for you and your children. A lot of women won't leave for fear that he will kill her. But I have always believed that things happen for a reason and if my spouse kills me, then it was my time to go no matter what. We are all gonna go one day, but you are just slowly killing yourself--your spirit, your soul, and your well-being--by staying and being scared and unhappy for the rest of your life. I have a friend who has been with her husband since she was 18 and she is now 36. He has abused her both physically and verbally all these years and she looks so sad. They have 4 children together who are between the ages of 12 and 18. She doesn't have any of them and hasn't since they were little because of him, and she stays with him. I guess you can say she chose him over them and I really believe it is all for fear. No one has to be that miserable throughout their entire life. Please leave because there is life out there if you will just allow yourself to find it. If you need a friend, feel free to write at Biscayne70@juno.com. Good luck and God bless you!!!<BR>

*****<p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited May 16, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Renae:<BR>[B]Yes, Karenna. <P>Thank you hadl1970...your caring heart and wisdom is so appreciated!! This man has refused all our married life (15 yrs) to use Dr. Harley's principles on a daily basis, and so disaster is inevitable and that's where we are. I never wanted it to be this way, but H has insisted it be like this. <P>Yesterday, I spent over 2 1/2 hrs with the therapist early in the day and we were in couple counseling over 2 1/2 hrs in the evening. They are EXCELLENT therapists who fit our needs, but H is a very sick man, and he seems unwilling to invest the money it will take and only wants to get his hurt out and I'm the one who needs to be fixed. <P>She asked me to give them a couple weeks to work with him one on one, and then we may be able to work on a separation so the damage stops. I pray I can hold out 'til then. <P>Being in therapy with him last night was so difficult but how can I not be there? When he gives out all these twisted stories and perceptions, I feel I must hear it in order to let the Therapists know how he's twisting things!! And is he willing to change from control to mutual relationship? Is all this digging up stuff going to guarantee that? Oh, it would be so much easier to go on with my life, though I know that would be hard too.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Renae:<BR><B>Originally posted by Renae:<BR>Yes, Karenna.<P><BR>Being in therapy with him last night was so difficult but how can I not be there? When he gives out all these twisted stories and perceptions, I feel I must hear it in order to let the Therapists know how he's twisting things!! <P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Do you think they "get it"? If you do in fact have your story in the form of all these dialogues in their hands, then you should just trust them to talk to him and challenge him one on one for a few sessions. You will get a chance to express your perspective again.<P>And if it doesn't work out between H and the therapists and you, well, you are leaving anyway. Nothing lost. The potential gain is tremendous.

Yesterday a.m. on the phone she remarked, "He is exactly as you've said--thinks he's a good husband, etc". Yes, they get it....everything, circumstances too. They witnessed him in verbal combat against me and how I deal with it, and they intervened to tell him I was right on something. <P>As with the last counseling situation, stirring up things is causing H to act worse toward me at home. I tried to keep things nice, superficial yesterday a.m., but he was throwing verbal daggers so I met them with strength. It is making me feel very sick inside but I am standing my ground, debating as strong as necessary--it was so intense at one point yesterday, that he was bending forward toward me and we were literally face to face, nose to nose, eye to eye!! I refuse to be overpowered anymore. <P>He's complaining about the cost of the Therapy, how nobody deserves that kind of money and that he needed that last $375 to buy a lawnmower. I asked if he's learning anything, and he said not much. He seemed to want me to back down on this whole thing, but I firmly said you're either serious about working things out or I'll see a lawyer. He shut up. <BR>The church who referred these therapists to me said they could help with finances if we needed it at some point, but right now I think H can & should to pay some for the relational disaster he's created. He's had plenty of opportunities for less expensive routes toward change but was unwilling. <P>I feel the therapists modeling a normal marriage/life, & I am realizing again how FAR from normal my life is....everything has gone too far into chaos. This is my last fight for this to become a marriage. Whatever happens with H, I promise myself there is no going back, no staying in chaos, and I'm going to have a real happy, growing, healthy, whole life and for the kids too!!! <P><p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited May 17, 2001).]

I pray that you will have strength and courage for whatever is before you.<BR>

<BR>Your prayers are so needed, Bleubelle...thank you!!<BR>

Woke up & can't sleep. The T made a statement in the last a.m. session (before they saw the real H in action)that we can work it out and avoid divorce for us & kids' sake. I'm troubled by this. How can I have faith anymore? <P>I mean I would be all for H recovering to be a whole person for the first time in his life. It is quite a miracle that he's seeing a psychotherapist couple who fit the need so well. At this point, I feel more like I'm bringing him to the emergency room for his own help and dealing with my own wounds, but can't even imagine marriage to him anymore.<P>Believing for a marriage out of this chaos is really too much stretch for me now. How does she expect me to hope and commit to this? <P>How could he ever grow up enough for a normal marital relationship? How could I ever believe he has changed if he does change? How could I ever handle even one "slip" back into his old ways? How could I ever trust and totally fall in mad love with the man who has so violated my whole personhood all our years together? And if he only changed in part, could I be content with that?? Would God expect me to be content with partial change? <P>Guess I give this all over to God. It is too much for me.<P>I did hear yesterday, an awesome tape from a guy whose name I think was Keith Miller, a recovering controller. He said a 12-step group helped him deal with shame, pain, his past, etc., and he's becoming healthy & in relationships. How refreshing to hear. But it could only happen to H if he were willing. And the marriage could only come again if I were willing. UGH!!!!!!<P>Thanks for listening!! This is such stress!<P>

Renae:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Believing for a marriage out of this chaos is really too much stretch for me now. How does she expect me to hope and commit to this?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No offense, but you're clearly sending mixed signals to your husband (and the therapists). If you want a divorce, then just do it. Don't drag your husband through the pretense of marriage counseling because you want to divorce him and seem like you "tried".<P>There's no doubt that if I were you, I would have very little hope, and very little energy to deal with this. But what I'm expecting (and hoping) that your counselors do is to establish a safe separation for you and the kids, and to help your husband learn to exibit new (and consistant) marital behavior that will support the kind of marriage you want.<P>I also fully expect that you will mistrust his efforts, be angry about them, and that it might be too late. But I'll suggest that you try to follow through on this: let your husband do the work (and it's going to take at least 6 months---probably more like 12), and try to judge his progress as fairly as you can.<P>I can't honestly say that a quick divorce will end up being any easier for you. And unless your husband makes some miraculous changes in his behavior, I can't see that staying with him will help either. But a controlled separation has the possibility of working. If these counselors are any good, and they see hope, then let them do their stuff. And if you have any misgivings about their plan (or assessment of your marriage), bring it up with them, in private.<P>God bless.

The only thing that gives me pause is the principle that Schnarch eloquently states that we are almost always extremely well matched on some level with our spouses. He says we marry within our own level of differentiation. Others may say that we find a dysfunctional equivalent, or that our strengths match their weaknesses. <P>You have your own weaknesses that have kept you with him all these years. The personal growth for yourself that you are hoping for will probably be even greater if you stay by him when he finally begins to heal and grow. <P>Don't get your egotistical Taker in gear now and think you are so much better than your H. We are equal in the eyes of God, just having different graces and weaknesses. You are called to be a blessing to him. I would be the last one to blame you for leaving him, but your stoicism in the face of unanimous support for leaving ASAP has led me to believe that you will be best served by standing for your marriage.<P>The LAST thing you want to do is punish H for getting help and beginning to see a glimmer of truth! If you could stick by him through the abuse, then you owe it to him, to yourself, and to God to stick by your vows through the therapy, repentance and growth process. Let Godly Love give you strength and patience and hope for a tender, romantic and passionate love to grow in the future.<P>Only you know the reality of your marriage, your own contributions good and bad, and what you have tolerated to create the life you find yourself leading.<P>I will continue in prayers for you, Renae.<P>Love,<P>Karenna

Renae: You have not heard from me before but I have been watching your posts. I am here to offer encouragement. <P>My situation was similar to yours, and our personalities sound similar to. I went through what you are going through with your husband. Mine husband was full of pride too, and he really needed to change. He knew it deep down, but he also fought it very hard. I believe your husband is acting out because you have changed, and you aren't playing the same game and backing down any more. I read somewhere along the way about relationship dynamics that when one person changes in a relationship there is a lot of opposition and pressure for them to "change back," and that is what you are up against. <P>Hang in there with your boundaries. Make it clear what you need and expect from him and hold your ground. I know it is scary because he may escalate, may leave, etc. In my case, my husband (with the help of therapy) came around and realized what a real man is like. I can honestly tell you I have a new man now. <P>It was very painful and very scary while we went through it, and it would have been easier to jump ship or to change back, but with God's help I was able to maintain. <P>It really sounds like the pressure is on him right now, and it could go either way, but as long as he is going to these new counselors, hang in there!<P>It is really time for you to be strong. I know you can do it since you have come this far.