Thank you, K!! Perfect time for your message. I just got off the phone with a friend who advised the same thing. She knows H's church also, and says there are other men there who treat women in condescending ways (I didn't realize this but wondered).... anyway, it is confirmed in my heart now--it will have to be a legal separation. Maybe thru this the court will advise anger management therapy, etc too, which H would never get therapy on his own... this is the best approach for me, the kids, and H. Yes!!<P>I will phone Pastor T and also call a new attorney. (Karenna, the last one was experienced, but his attitude was not what I can work with.)

H threw a "monkeywrench" into the plans I have to meet Pastor T alone on Tues.!!<P>Since I dropped Counselor, H has accused me of having a secret agenda to just divorce and run off with the kids. He accused me of being bad, that I'm refusing to be accountable to anyone. (It is really him who has refused all along to be accountable.)<P>He pressured me to tell him if I'm going to see someone new (for counsel), and he insists on following me to my next appointment (Pastor T)!! He said there will be no more marital counseling without him along to tell his side of things! Of course, I did not intend this to be a marital counseling session!! The days for that were over.)<P>I wondered if I should cancel with Pastor T, sneak off alone(H doesn't know the day and time), or let H come along and see if Pastor T can do him any good? (I have heard he and his church have dealt with others from H's similar religious background, and shown them the "grace" of Christianity. Maybe in the process of H running to control me, he runs into a Pastor of Grace who can help?? <P>I am nerveous. Don't know what to expect or do!! Need prayer!!<BR> <P><p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited April 09, 2001).]

Maybe I'm being ugly but here goes: How are you paying for your counseling? Is it coming out of your discretionary money or out or joint money? Or is it provided free by church? Is it to be paid for by your insurance provider?<P>That sort of figures in to whether or not to let him come, perhaps. If he insists on being there, let him pay for half of it. Would that change his demands.<P>You could tell him you want to go by yourself but he is welcome to meet alone with Pastor T at a time HE schedules. Then, take it from there.<P>Or let him go and sit there while you talk about issues that do not concern him. Let Pastor T know ahead of time and then talk about issues that have nothing to do with x. Peanut things. Yes, you'll be wasting counseling time but if h thought it had nothing to do with him, he might leave. <P>How did h find out you had this appointment? What would happen if you said "Based on the outcome of our previous counseling, I'm not planning on making appointments for marital counseling. When you decide to do so, let me know and I will consider going. Should I make an appointment to deal with improving our marriage, I'll ask you to come." <P>This man is controling you to the maximum.

Good to hear from you, Bleubelle...<P>I met with Pastor T today alone; H was planning to come but a business phone conference took too long. H says he will go next time (I will not count on that 'til I see it.)<P>Pastor T understands completely and is willing to meet with H and give him the grace he needs to grow, if H is willing; he can also give him good connections with others in the church. However, if he refuses to cooperate this time... I will have support to file for legal separation, and Pastor T will still be there for him should he decide to wake up at that time and want to deal with himself. There is also a pre-divorce group I can be part of just in case things go that way, and a lady I can connect with for support. <P>Later today, I ran into a lady (at my kids' sport lesson)who attends that church, and without knowing anything of my situation, she starts telling me how 14 years ago she went ahead and got herself and the kids involved in that church, even though her H had similar attitudes as my H that it isn't conservative enough; finally he went and has been happy there ever since. HMMM<P>Things are moving forward....<P><BR>

I am coming to see God as more inclusionary than exclusionary. and I think there are a lot of things religious conservatives take as gospel truth that are found only in the books of 1 or 2 Opinions. I'm waiting for someone to show me the scripture for a worship assembly facility other than the temple, synogogue, or someone's home. That means the church building, as "GOD'S HOUSE", a building solely for the purpose of Christian worship may not be scriptural. However, I see it as a tool for doing God's work.<P>There are so many things people hold sacred based on tradition and opinion. God doesn't give us tons of rules except love one another and Him and be good citizens of our family and community and obey the civil laws if they are not in conflict with His laws.<P>

Yes!!...books of Opinions 1 & 2!... <P>The worst part is the narrow-mindedness that is emphasized as RIGHT and only that can possibly be RIGHT. If you express a possibility that even slightly deviates from what they think is right, you're WRONG or LIBERAL. My H used to scowl at me, "What are you trying to do, rip a page out of the Bible?!!!" I had high fear of God & his truth and was in no way trying to destroy it, but I just wasn't expressing things with the exact vocabulary he learned. <P>He could rattle off this definition of love, but what good is that if you can't live it?? <P>Last night H says, "You don't like me spiritually. That is the whole problem." He can't see it is the lack of healthy GROWING spirituality! See, if you think you are right, why seek, knock, etc? And it's his backrupt emotional life that spews out abuse, and his lack of relationship skills leave me in neglect,... all coated in religiousness and he's never wrong!! And to him, everyone else has the problem, not him! They are pharisees, they are liberal, they are.... but he is RIGHT, while his wife and family are sick from him!!! <P>Yesterday he denied that he had agreed to see Pastor T. I reminded him of his exact words, but he gives himself the freedom to deny it and break his promises.... if I did any of that, he'd angrily reprimand me as a liar and command me to obey!! I told him "if the house is on fire, you don't have to think about calling the fire department"...and it is time to see Pastor T. (This is his last chance, and he just wants to play games!!)<BR>UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!<P>Now he said to me that how can Pastor T know anything for us when he can't even see he's using the wrong Bible version, taken from bad manuscripts?!!!! <P>Oh the circles are endless!!!<BR>If he won't try Pastor T, I must just move on!!!!!! <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited April 14, 2001).]

Why are you still trying to validate yourself through him? His god is his Church. (Note the capitalizations!) Please keep working on yourself. Don't worry about his path.

Right, I can't expect any validation or affirmation from H, who continually sets me up as a target board and takes pride in his attacks. <P>Yesterday while at his church with the family for the holiday, I cringed as I heard the very things that contributed to forming the man I live with!! (Yet I also know even the Counselor & Pastor we met with from his own denomination viewed H as abusive and controlling, not acceptable to them.) <P>Later, H preached at me that Pastor T can't help him/us because he uses the NIV, a "Swiss Cheese Bible" (leaves out things from the KJV). If he is going to use this argument to avoid getting Pastor T's marital/theological help, then there is nothing more I can do for him. He refuses to grow & develop a marriage.<BR>He's emotionally/relationally sick but covers it over with religion and tells himself he's ok. Very sad.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited April 17, 2001).]

Last night, he says, if I can contact Pastor T with his Swiss Cheese NIV Bible, and if I can't accept H's spiritual gift and the ministry he believes in doing, then I am just too liberal!! What makes this so crazy, if you knew me, is I am and always have been very conservative; nobody ever viewed me as liberal! He's completely sick!<P>He said if he would love me more than the ministry God has for him, then he would be commiting idolatry. Hmmmm.... Seems to me it isn't a problem at all of him loving me too much but reality is he's not loving me enough, as the Bible instructs "as Christ loves the church". <P>I am hearing very clearly that he has no intention of valuing me as a person or wife and having a real marriage. He wants only to do his church thing. OK. I will pray for him but go on with my own life with the Lord.<P>I can't believe a man would marry a woman, what is supposed to be the ultimate human expression of acceptance and love, then spend the next 15 years using, abusing, neglecting, and then totally rejecting her and think it is God's will for him!! Did he not participate in a "covenant" of promise before God and me to love and cherish?? Is church ministry first before marriage? UGH!!...I am so shocked!! <P>I'm giving him an ultimatum today...he either goes to Pastor T or he's setting himself up for disaster--to lose his wife and kids in legal separation or divorce. Also, the former Counselor is still eager to contact H's pastor and tell him how I'm treated; she said it is Biblical for him to be told but I was holding off, giving H grace in the chance to straighten out with Pastor T. His own pastor would disapprove of him ending the marriage to work in his church! <P>Things are at the boiling point. Prayers needed! <BR>God help me, I need peace from this man!! <p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited April 17, 2001).]

Where did you get the idea that it was "Biblical" to hold off calling him to repentance and let him continue ignorantly in sin? I don't call that <I>grace</I>.<P>Praying for you to have strength. He never loved you at all. Just dependence. He is Church oriented, not God oriented. I never meant to imply that he should love you more than God.

To explain, the strategy has been:<P>(1)Confront him before 2 witnesses: Counselor and her Pastor,from H's denomination. They could not get H to admit sin (abuse, etc.), repent, & change.<P>(2)Counselor believed next it would be Biblical to confront H before his own pastor, though she didn't think this would even bring him to repentance but is following scriptural procedure. <P>I want to wait with #2. She and her pastor already put him through a "law" approach--they figured out his problem/sin, and then condemned him and refused to help him see a way out. The Bible says that's what the law does. His own pastor will do the same thing, just shame him some more, and he will just have the same reaction of resisting this. <P>I believe that "shame-based, law" approach should stop for now and we switch to Pastor T's "grace" approach of teaching H truth in love, informing him about the roots of his spiritual abusiveness, etc., offering to provide support to heal and grow in a church "grace community", etc....and if H refuses this and thinks he will find refuge back at his own strict church, THEN it is time to blow his "image there"--he gets the hammer from his own pastor, not allowed to do ministry there, etc....plus I do legal separation and I have the kids and I'm not here to help with his business either.... <P>at that point he's under pressure from all sides. As he faces himself alone, he can decide to (a) change by going back to Pastor T for help, get anger management, learn Harley's marriage skills, or else (b) face divorce and as an abuser unwilling to change, he loses contact with the kids. <P>Doesn't this progression make sense, Karenna? <P>Right now he seems to be refusing to even see Pastor T to be offered grace and thinks he will be accepted for doing ministry at his own church! I think his own pastor already knows there's a problem here & won't accept him hiding his sin & trying to restart his ministry from years back. It is possible he would even be barred from the church ,as Counselor is eager to tell his Pastor everything!<P><BR>

But isn't he still "doing" ministry? What is it? Teaching kids basketball or conducting marriage seminars?<P>What is the old ministry he would have to restart? Different from his present activity?<P>Does he have a "Job" outside of the church?<P>Is he supported financially by the church either in whole or in part?<P>How much spiritual damage is he perpetuating or could he potentially perpetuate through continuing in ministry as a hateful abusive unrepentent person with his priorities the antithesis of Jesus'?<P>Shouldn't you be protecting the flock too from his erroneous thinking and morals?<P>What is taking Counselor so long to blow the whistle on him? Does she have to wait for you?<P>I don't think I like that denomination very much, and I have no idea what it is. My Jesus has a lot more grace for individuals and compassion for families than theirs seems to have.

He had quit his ministry position thru his church shortly before he met me in '84, and his plan was to start up again with me to help. Remember this is actually the primary reason he dated & married me, is to have a helper in ministry (not for relationship!). He has put me down & blamed me as keeping him out of this ministry all these years, but that is not the case! He is being dishonest with himself!!<P>It is an unpaid, evangelistic outreach to surrounding suburbs and up in the inner city. H would go door-to-door, meeting people, esp. inviting kids to church, then pick up all these kids with a bus on Sundays. He'd sing with them, give a mini-sermon, etc on the way to church. During the week when he was off his regular job, he was very involved with families, witnessing, etc. <P><p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited April 19, 2001).]

Renae:<P>Thought I'd jump in and add my 'two cents' worth concerning 'Marriage vs Ministry'.<P>I have had first hand experience with a spouse who felt ministry was more important than marriage/family.<P>I'm sorry, but marriage/family comes before ministry. I remember years ago hearing someone remark at a missions conference in L.A. that "so many men are out winning the world to Christ, while their own families at home are going to hell".<P>Maybe not literally, but in the sense that they are being neglected because the husband/father is out 'doing the work of the Lord'.<P>Let me share some things for you to ponder:<BR>* Relationship always precedes Ministry<BR>* God established the home/family/marriage BEFORE He established the church<BR>* If a man can not rule his own household, how can he rule<BR> the household of God?<P>There is a God appointed/ordained/established list of priorities that must be followed in a marriage relationship.<P>(1) Individual relationship with the Lord is 1st priority <BR> in a marriage<BR>(2) 2d, your spouse <BR>(3) 3d, your children<BR>(4) 4th, your job,career, MINISTRY<BR>(5) 5th, friends, hobbies etc<P>If you are familiar with Jim/Tammy Bakker (PTL) in his book I WAS WRONG, both Jim and Tammy admitted they put their ministry ahead of their marriage which led to their downfall and ultimate divorce.<P>I believe it is Matthew, Chapter 9, which states:<BR>"if when you go to the altar to present your gift and there you remember your brother has something against you (or you against him); leave your gift, go and be reconciled to your brother and then come present your gift"<P>I had always heard this taught concerning money, but I believe it (your gift) could also apply to ministry. In other words, if your home/family/marriage is in shambles, you need to lay down your ministry, go home and put your house in order.<P>One time the Lord spoke to me what I felt was a prophetic word and said "Our ministry (mine and my former wife's) would be sorely limited unless our Jerusalem was in order. That, unless our Jerusalem (home) was in order; we should forget going to Judea, Samaria and the utter most parts of the world".<P>I also believe many people "hide" in ministry, finding all their worth/value in what they DO, rather than in WHO they are. Remember, 'relationship precedes ministry'.<P>Up until 1995, I was just like your husband.....law based, performance based, legalistic, all wrapped up in ministry and outward appearance....but while I was in China, the Lord impressed these words upon me that have totally revolutionized my life and continue to:<P>"I am more interested in what I can accomplish in you, than what I can accomplish through you. For the quality of what I accomplish through you, will be based upon the quality of what I have been able to accomplish in you".<P>God wants a chance to work on your husband's character and integrity.....but He needs his cooperation.<P>Do you remember the harsh words of rebuke that Jesus had for the Pharisee's who were like 'whited tombs' but inwardly were rotten? They had all their religious ducks in a row 'externally'.....but inwardly they had Zero character!<P>The anointing or ministry gifts will carry you to a place where your character won't keep you! In other words, all the glitz, glamour and charisma of ministry will fade and what's going on behind closed doors will be shouted from the rooftops and exposed.<P>Anyway.....hope I have shared somethings that might help.<P>[censored]<P>p.s.<P>I love something I heard Dr. Ed Cole (author of Maximized Manhood)said:<P>"A man's character is reflected in the countenance of his wife"<P>Have you looked at your countenance lately?

Right, [censored]. I just never imagined anyone married just for ministry, to control the wife, and not to build relationship, closeness. It boggles my mind. <P>Looks like he clearly doesn't want to be restored to wholeness. He knows he's empty, etc...but continues his patterns. <P>Yesterday he blew up in anger out of nowhere, accused me of "trying to fit into the family but you're a phoney", "you're a gossip", "I trust you--ZERO!", "You leave all my business stuff alone!"....I told him he is terribly mistaken about me, my real motives, etc. He's sick. Efforts at restoration seem impossible. Time for separation. I can't live with these constant character attacks. That's what Patricia Evans says in her books on verbally abusive relationships, that he's always re-defining you. I am definitely not who he says I am. He's crazy!!<P><BR>

H had to deliver eviction notice papers to a renter<BR>who has committed gross violations of the lease, etc. After H did this, he called me. I know he hates the behaviors this renter committed, but I heard in his voice that he feels sad for this renter....H said "He just can't see himself".<BR>Yes, I answered, that's how those types are (hint, hint!!) <BR>I can't help but feel that H will be the same way when he gets "papers"...He just can't see himself!!!! Sad, indeed, when a man can't see himself. I pray God helps us all to see ourselves as we really are so that we may mature into all God has for us to be!!.... Just some thoughts....

I don't recall if I have mentioned the book here by<BR>Dr. Margaret Rinck titled Christian Men Who Hate Women.<BR>I almost didn't read the book due to the extreme sound of the title, but I read it some time back, and I've picked it up again to review some points. [censored], Karenna, and others--read this book if you can!! It is incredibly enlightening. No doubt others come to this board with the same problem I'm in...tell them to read this book!<P>As Dr. Rinck describes, H has a condition called "misogyny".<BR>She describes the qualities in the wife also, that led her to such a man. I have dealt extensively with those issues over many years, even prior to marriage, and feel more "whole" as a person now, but H refuses to deal with who he is, typical of misogynists, and the fact his church enforces his behavior/attitudes/emotional & spiritual dysfunctions that cause chaos in marriage. <P>I like what Dr. Rinck suggests, to do a "covenant separation" which allows the wife peace and healing while H gets help. What I'm thinking right now I should do is to ask Pastor T to talk to my H about this and see if we can get it in force ASAP. If H will not cooperate with that and getting his own therapy, then I will have to take tougher action of legal separation or divorce. This is what I'm thinking about right now. This seems like the correct way to handle this.<BR>I must call Pastor T next week.<P>Thanks for your support and prayers!<BR> <p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited April 21, 2001).]

Most excellent suggestions! I would like to see that book. But <I>misogyny</I> just means "hates women" in latin! Not exactly a clinical condition.<P>The only problem I see now is that if he is resistant in the least, you are going to need system back up with legal help. Getting temporary orders for you and the girls require that you file for Separation. Or perhaps <I>only</I> a restraining order, depending on your local laws and rules, but he has to have done something somewhat threatening or violent very recently to get that. Hope you found a nicer attorney!

Well, Karenna, the book describes my H to a T, from using "God's will" to get a woman to marry him, then being controlling, angry, abusive, having a public image vs. private, etc...and how the church has failed to detect these types etc... <P>Good advice, Karenna. Thank you.<P>I got seminar tapes and book from Itsfixable.com... Oh, it looks good but H will not be interested....they talk about dealing with your past and why you are in the mess.... And get this!...Last week, I had Dr. Harley on the radio, H walks in and hears Harley talking to a woman regarding her spouse's affair, Harley says it's not necessary to dig into his past.... My H took Harley's statement out of context and looked at me and said, see?..I keep telling you to forgive and we go on!!! these psychologists who tell you to look at your past aren't right! (GRRRRRR!!...H needs to deal with why he's so dysfunctional from his past and work on self recovery. I thought to myself....How will this man even consider listening to Itsfixable's program!!!... Well, I will ask, but this is it for programs if he won't do this. <P>Tonight H started attacking me with "you won't communicate, you're stuck on the past and unforgiving"....I took a piece of paper, wrote "Behavior A" at the top and wrote "f" (for forgive) down the page for every week, month, years he keeps repeating this behavior, but I said, if you never repent, you never change, you never stop Behavior A, all that happens is, I get more irritated, our relationship suffers, you create more and more damage that is not repaired (I scribbled all over the page). I wrote my name and drew walls around it, telling how guarded I become. I drew a repeated circle telling how communication only goes around in circles and never resolves anything, so why should I desire to communicate with him? You keep saying I'm the problem, but I am not! Your behavior is!!! Surprisingly, this silenced him!!! But will it do any good?!! I will not hold my breath!!<P>At one point, he interrupted and preached that I was getting loud. I said, this is just another one of your defenses, accusing me of getting loud when you don't want to hear the truth!! Again, he looked stunned.<P>He just doesn't get it, and I'm tired!!!<p>[This message has been edited by Renae (edited April 22, 2001).]

That's it! Past behaviors that are REPENTED OF need not be mentioned over and over. <P> <I>Ongoing patterns with no evidence of change, no confession of wrong and remorse, no plea for forgiveness from those he wronged <B>CERTAINLY ARE STILL AT ISSUE!!!</B></I><P>You know the difference. <P><OL TYPE=1> <BR>1. See if he knows the difference in the context of some third party who has "wronged" him. When does he forgive? Ever? When does he hold a hard line in the face of a person begging for more chances?<P>2. Then make the step to the "wrongs" you have committed against him, repented of and asked his forgiveness. Which of those has he forgiven? Thank him for those, if any.<P>3. Then make the cosmic lightyear leap to HIS behaviors he wants you to ignore/drop/forgive in spite of the lack of sincere permanent repentance. Explain what genuine repentence would look like to you, i.e., your terms for forgiveness! </OL><p>[This message has been edited by Karenna (edited April 22, 2001).]