W said the other day that she has a "Do it Yourself D book" and she thinks we should go over the stuff together to get the paperwork filed and try to save some $ on legal fees.

How do I sit down with her and help her plan our D. I don't want it and I feel like I'm trying to stop a moving train and she is asking me to just get on it with her.

In part I feel like she is doing this because she would feel better if It seems like I agree with her.

If I don't do this with her, she will just get upset.

It will be very difficult to do something like this without LB'ing. It is the biggest thing that we disagree on.

This may all come back up the begining of the new year, I don't expect it to untill then and I need to be prepared.

Dear Wish I Were Home:

Your situation is quite like mine. In November, my wife said we have to talk and promptly produced a do it yourself separation kit, also to save money. Her opening comments were" "we can do this ourselves, or we can have a lawyer do it. What is your choice?"

I felt the same way, but I was prepared for this to happen and was expecting it. Since I prepared in advance, I caught her off-guard by my body language, my words, my eye contact, my listening ears, etc. I told her that I would not outwardly oppose her efforts to secure a legal separation agreement or a divorce, and I had a prepared text to look at as I shared with her my feelings about the childrens' needs, spousal support payment, division of household assets, etc. In fact, I really caught her off-guard because I said I will sign the house over to her in exchange for zero spousal support. She knew the possibility that this would be a FINAL move on my part and said that she would prefer we both kept the house (I don't know how she expects me to pay for two homes, but I will cross that bridge when I come to it).

To make a long story short, it has now been about 6 weeks and my wife has not brought up the matter again. Now this is not to say that she will not bring it up in the new year (entirely possible), but I believe the open communication we had that night (about a 90 minute heart-to-heart - something we had not had in more than one year), meant something to her. She was in tears as I left that night and I believe her cold, hard heart has softened just a tiny bit since.

I would respectfully recommend to you that you do what my counselor said I should do. That is, if you really love your wife, you will open the cage door and let her go if that is what she really wants. Do not oppose any move by her for a more formal separation or a divorce, because the most you can do is drag out a bad situation. More importantly, if either of our wives feels that we are hanging on to them (suffocating them so to speak) it will only drive them further from our loving embrace.

I wish you the best my friend.

Shaken but not stirred

Thanks for the recommendation. Unfortunately I think this may be what I have to do. The only thing that I am not sure about is how to let her know that I am only doing it to open that cage without making her feel like I'm putting all the blame on her. I know that If I don't let her know that I am doing it for her that she will think that I agree with her.

My experience with this is as follows:

- WARNING: Any discussion you have about anything concrete will set expectations that will come back to haunt you.

If you have any discussion at all, I would suggest it be "listening ears" and "open heart" about things in very vague and general and supportive terms. For example, discuss impact on children and each other's lives. But stay away from discrete financial discussions. Why? It sets an expectation that you are willing to give X. They'll take that as a STARTING point for negotiations. What starts out as a non-LBing discussion will in fact later turn out to be something bad.

UNLESS YOU ARE DOCUMENTING TERMS OF DIVORCE YOU ARE SPINNING YOUR WHEELS AND WASTING TIME AND ENERGY.

The problem with DIY kits is that they are 1) vague, 2) not legally binding the instant you have a disagreement and one of you goes to a lawyer, and 3) it kind of tricks you into being reasonable so that later they can come back and go for more.

I tried a mediated approach at the beginning of my DV. I felt like I was being very reasonable and more than fair. But it turned out to be just spinning our wheels once she started asking for more and more and more... when she went to a lawyer, they took our "mediation" as a starting point and asked for about 3x more (for a dollar perspective). It caused a lot of bad blood and I wish I had just gone to a lawyer right off the bat.

Incidentally, and based on the "law", she ended up with about half of what I had offered in mediation and every day I'm grateful that she went to a lawyer!!!!! If you're going to do a DIY divorce kit, you need to kind of put on a strategic hat and think, "What if this falls apart?" In that light, how "fair" can you afford to be right now? You offered the house for ZERO spousal support. If she goes to a lawyer, they'll ask for the house and waive spousal support but go after something else... or maybe even say that it's proof you're hiding assets or something insane.

People get crazy as the divorce process moves through. My personal belief is that DIY divorce kits only work in the following situation:
- both parties desperately want a divorce for non-emotional reasons, like you both woke up one day and realized he's gay and she's a lesbian.
- both parties don't have enough assets to fight over.
- both parties DO NOT have cause to hate, suspect, or distrust the other.
- YOU have already filled out the DIY divorce kit and you walk in with it into the middle of a conversation about divorce and bust it out for them to sign right then and there.

You have how many years of water under the bridge? You want your marriage back and they want HOW MUCH????? You make X and they are asking for Y?? They want the special thing your mom made for you during that one birthday?????????

Lyxa

Thanks for your input. I'm not gay and I don't think she is a lesbian <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
We have nothing to fight over. We both agree that we must sell our house to survive. She is a SAHM and hasn't worked in 10 years. If I signed the house over to her, the bank would probably take it faster than she could sell it.
Neither of us are out to scr3w the other. In fact I want to be as fair as I can to allow her and my children to be as comfortable as possible and for me to be able to survive at the same time.
We don't have the finances to go through lawyers and as far as I know, she wants to use this as a starting point for filing. Perhaps use mediation later. But how do I sit down with her and help her file for D against me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I will definately take you advice and I will be very carefull of what I say. She seems to come to her own conclusions of what I mean, even when I am very vague. If I were to say something like"I would need 2 jobs to afford that" a week later she would say "I thought you were looking for a second job"

Be very careful. And in fact, I would recommend just skipping the DIY kit. The money for the lawyer will be the least of the problems that you will have to deal with should this divorce go through. I agree with Lyxa, unless you both want out and want NOTHING from the other, I really doubt that this can work. Sure there are those that make it work, but I can see the problems starting before you even get started.

My ex ran the show. She filed, said we should do mediation, agreed to 50/50 custody, alimony, and CS. Then something snapped in her and she started thinking I was going to screw her over, so she filed a proposal that was ludicrous and completely unfounded. So much so that HER attorney told mine that "This is ridiculous, but it is what she tells me to say." I said no, and went straight along the lines of the law, which was less than half of what I was paying her willingly at the time. I also wanted to help her. I left the house and told her I would sign it over. I paid her FULL CS and maintenance which was NOT required, but I wanted to help. I took all the bills except her student loans. I gave everything to her, and she still filed for full custody to try to get more. Finally, a mediator told her she better take this or she was going to get nothing. She finally agreed.

I just think that it is too hard to do this yourselves. Especially when one person is thinking about the children and the other is thinking about herself.

My feelings, after having tried what you are contemplating, is to just say, "You know, I love you and can see the problems that trying to do this ourselves would cause. We often don't understand what the other is meaning, and this leads to bigger problems than the original. I care about you so much, and do not want any bad blood between us. In an effort to preserve that love and respect, I want to have lawyers take care of this. If we can agree upon the basic things, then the lawyers can ensure that we are both insulated from the issues should they arise. They can keep their heads when we might loose ours. They can rein us in when we become intolerable. They might be the only way to preserve my love for you. I hope you don't think that I am trying to take advantage of you or the law, that is not at all what I am trying to do. I am trying to minimize any arguments, fights, and bad blood that may arise by a face to face confrontation over an issue. I am trying to give us both peace that neither of us is being taken advantage of, nor being left out in the cold."

My personal belief, after having gone through this is that it is a rare case that can be split amicably. We never really faught about it, she just said 'gimme' and I said "NO". Then she would file a motion. There was no give and take... actually, there was... I gave and she took and wanted more. A lawyer can at least mitigate the ridiculous requests that cause such a loss of respect. A lawyer can buffer the stupidity that can arise because of foolish beliefs of deserving. I loved my ex completely until the day she filed for full custody for my kids ONLY to get me to pay her more. She immediately withdrew when she realized she would get far less if she faught me and potentially loose everything because I would have probably gotten full custody rather than she would.

You are at a very dangerous place for your future right now. Anything that you agree to can haunt you until the end of time if you are not careful. And in the state of love and trying to 'show her you love her' you are likely to act the fool in an effort to 'earn her love back'. You will never be able to show her you love her by giving her everything. I tried, and did give everything and it failed miserably. Luckily, I was forward thinking enough ensure that there would be an END to the giving should she make certain choices. She has made ALL those choices, and the giving has stopped. Not to control her, but because my giving was for my boys' good. When her choices for them were clearly only in her interests, I chose no longer to finance those choices as was written and agreed to within our final papers.

If you do this yourself, I would recommend NOT taking all the bills. Leave her one credit card, let her have some responsibility in the breakup. If you give her the house, let her be responsible for it. Any additional money to her should, in my opinion, be attached to the wellfare of your children. If she moves, it must be to a comparable place, etc. or to a '3 bedroom house with a yard, etc.' other wise payments cease. Don't finance her 'bachlorette pad' should she choose one.

BEGIN immediately making payments through the courts. DON'T try as I did and pay her directly. She would be out of town for several days, and I would give her the check the day she returned, and then she would say that I paid a day or two late. I paid her extra almost every month, just because, and I finally said 'Heck with it'. I set it up to pay the county, who in turn pays her directly, just because I was tired of her lying. Just don't set yourself up to be hurt by trying to help and being kicked as you do it.

I hope that you do well. I really do. I tried, and failed miserably. I would never try again. NOT because I was screwed over. I gave everything absolutely willingly. In fact, I told the mediator what I would give during the first 10 minute conversation. I scripted out exactly what would happen, and exactly what she would say. She couldn't believe it, but at the end, she said "You know, you were right... almost verbatim. You paid far to much for all the right reasons." That was the mediator. My attorney was about to choke with what I was giving. I do not regret what I gave, just how hard it was to try to give it.

Don't make the same mistake I did. Lovingly use lawyers from the beginning. Because when you try and fail without them, by the time they are called upon, bad blood has already been started

W said the other day that she has a "Do it Yourself D book" and she thinks we should go over the stuff together to get the paperwork filed and try to save some $ on legal fees.
Course she did. Why not save a few bucks?

How do I sit down with her and help her plan our D.
If that’s not what you want, then you don’t.

In part I feel like she is doing this because she would feel better if It seems like I agree with her.
Course. This is natural. If you go along, then there is less stress on her for ending the marriage cause you are a willing party.

If I don't do this with her, she will just get upset.
Does this mean she is happy now?

This may all come back up the begining of the new year, I don't expect it to untill then and I need to be prepared.
Then just tell her (nicely) that you don’t want a divorce and are not going to help her.

ditto Chris

From an emotional and long term standpoint - let her take the initiative and do all the work. DO NOT willingly participate, but neither hinder her. Reason: allow her to make all the go/no go decisions so that IF it all comes to pass, you'll be guilt free. It will have been ALL her doing. The only resistance I recommend you put up is to make it crystal clear - and calmly - that you do not want a divorce and you believe your marriage can be salvaged - if you believe this.

She will carry the burden to her grave and you will recover with a clear conscience, knowing you had no hand in it.

Chris -CA123

Thanks for taking it easy on me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Formerly Confused
reading your experience is scares me of what's ahead. I hope W realizes that this is something that is best left to someone with experience. I'm in no rush so if it takes us a long time to afford lawyers then so be it. I don't want either of us to regret any decisions that are made.

worthatry
Thanks, both you and Chris are right. I shouldn't have to take responsibility for D. I take 50% responibility for our relationship but not the demise of it. She wants to end it, she will have to.
I may look over the stuff with her because I think she may want me to help her understand it. But other than clarifying what she is reading for her, she is on her own to move foward.