Majoli - thanks for that, yes I'm sure i'm in a "push-pull" relationship as GG said. When I back off, she comes in, but then moves out right after again. I want to fight for her but the trouble is that we do not even speak to each other just now. When I was calling her, I was accused of hassling her so I had to stop.

Majoli - I just read your post again. Although I don't know your story, I really wanted to tell you that as the "bad guy", there really is a "fog". I don't know why these things happen, the mind is a really funny thing! I think in my case I just took the marriage too much for granted, and didn't really value it, or believe that it could be changed.

Now that I am out of the fog (and it took my W saying "NO" and staying away from me to do it) I just cannot believe that I would do those things, the time that we have been separated really does seem so very distant to me.

So I just hope that (if you want it of course) your H does exactly the same...

Hi all, on a high tonight. A giant step made I think.

I had the kids out karting today, I invited W and said I would buy her dinner. She said she was too busy but would come over later. The kids went back about 4pm, and W came over just after 6. (I'm in the UK remember!)

After a bit of chit chat about kids etc, she laid into me about the councellors letter, said she was fuming that we had the cheek to think she needed councelling and who the hell was the councellor to make an appointment to play with her mind and try to control her. Said she was happy on her own and had been through enough etc...

Well I was stunned and said we hadn't meant it at all like that, that she had really taken me aback. I said that councelling is just talking not screwing with minds. I said that we can't stay how we are, we have to go one way or the other and that neither way was going to be easy. I said I was fed up with being ignored by her. I told her all about my sessions, how I had been through the last 3 years, then back to what had caused us to drift apart, then to why did I marry her in the first place. I said that was the easiest question ever, that I had realised what an awful mistake I had made and how I realise that I married her because she was the most beautiful person I had ever known and my best friend and I loved her deeply and wanted to fix things, but that I knew it would take time. I said I didn't want to go back 3 years, I wanted to go back to how it was at the start.

And you know what? Gradually I saw it go in. I said that I knew that there was a huge attachment between us and that I knew she felt it too. I saw her believe me.

We went out to dinner, had a really great time, came back to the house for coffee and talked for a while longer, lots of hugs and kisses then she went home. She phoned when she got in.

I'm going round on tuesday to sort out her car insurance and some other stuff and to have dinner..


WAY HEY!!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

WOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


Good job, graeme!!

Total honesty, openness and LOTS of patience will turn this thing. Plan A her when you can. COntinue to meet any EN's she will allow.

Keep doing what you're doing, keep LOVING her and letting her know you know you screwed up. THAT will get through.

We are pretty much in the same place, so I'm speaking from what is working in our sitch, too.

Remember: V-E-R-R-R-Y small BABY STEPS.
AND NO EXPECTATIONS!

God Bless,

Hi Lupo, thanks for that. It's hard to keep the expectations down, when you get a "break through" although I know there will be many "2 steps forward 1 back" to come...

Been round tonight, had a nice chat and some dinner, She was definitely holding herself back a bit more, but the goodnight kisses seem to be allowed (and reciprocated) now....

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Graeme

I'm happy for you. I think that if you don't pushed, she will start to see that you are honest and that you love her. One thing I think help is you having quality time with your kids and with her alone. These way you are showing her that you really care for your kids but that this is not the reason for you to wanted to come back

She needs to fill that is also her that you missed not only the family live. As for her meeting the terapist maybe you can tell her that he wants to talk to her for you. Let me try to explain, you can tell her that one of the reasons the terapist ask to see her is not to play with her mind but to try to figure out how he can help you better. It is common to terapist to want to talk to the familie's patiente to get a better picture of the cituation. Don't know if you understand me.

Ps- I read your replyes, thank you, but for the past 18 months i have being saying no and meaning it. This time I really though he was regret but aparently no. I don't understand why he can't tell me what he wants. At this point if he filed for divorce i will signing on the minute.

Hope your cituation gets better evryday.

Graeme

Something just "popped" into my brain when I read Majoli's response to you.

It is very important - in addition to keeping your distance right now - that you DO show her you can meet her most important EN'S. At leasst the ones she will allow you to fill.

You need to begin filling her LB$ again. In order to have her "fall in love" with you again (which I think is essential to forgiving the A), she needs to begin to have "happy feelings" for you. This happens when her LB$ (Love Bank) is being filled. Also, while this is going on, YOU are not getting YOUR LB$ addressed at all. Expect this.

See, the delicate balance here is that she wants to HATE you, stay angry, unforgiving of you, for what you have done. This is one reason this is going to be a loooong journey. It will prolly take about THREE TIMES the length of time it took to originally have her "fall" for you.

Remember, slow and steady wins the race, my friend. Be the best dad to the kids she's ever seen. SHOW HER THAT NO ONE ELSE IS QUALIFIED TO BE YOUR KIDS' DAD. SHOW HER THAT NO ONE ELSE COULD "FILL" HER LB$ BETTER THAN YOU.

SHOW HER THAT YOU ARE TRULY REMORSEFUL FOR PREVIOUS EVENTS. Read I said Show Her. Don't try to TELL her these things.

Be patient. Stay the course. Expect small set-backs, she's scared, too! You're doing fine.

God Bless,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lupolady:
<strong> Graeme

See, the delicate balance here is that she wants to HATE you, stay angry, unforgiving of you, for what you have done. This is one reason this is going to be a loooong journey. It will prolly take about THREE TIMES the length of time it took to originally have her "fall" for you.

Be patient. Stay the course. Expect small set-backs, she's scared, too! You're doing fine.

God Bless, </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lupo,

Thanks for that, yes I do understand!

..BTW it took her 1 day the first time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Graeme

Please read and re read what lupolady said, she looks smart <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . She put it in better words than mine. And remember not to push her just let her know and try to understand her needs even if you considered them insignificants. I love when my husband put real interest in what is happening in the kids live.

Ah well, a huge jump backwards tonight. I think it all over now. I'm posting because it helps me to write about it and because you have all been so good to me over the past few months that I want you to know whats happening.

She came over for dinner tonight. She had another dig at me about something silly (just after giving me her car insurance so i could arrange it for her!). Anyway to cut a long story short, I said I'd had enough of her treating me like sh*t, by ignoring me, being nasty etc etc and I thought it was time she made her mind up to either try or to get it all over with. She said she didn't love me just wanted to be friends. I said that how could we be friends when I wanted to fix things and she was saying she didn't, and that she ignored me and that she hadn't contacted me once in the last 3 months. Well I could see her thinking about that. I said I knew that inside she loved me but that she had a lot of hurt and anger as well. She said no I just don't feel the same, but I have never been nasty like that to anyone before.

None of this was a row by the way, it was a conversation. She said she just wanted to be on her own. I said well if that's what you want then you are better just telling me and getting it over with. She said you mean divorce, I hadn't thought about that! I said we could go to couple therapy, she said I don't need councelling. I said I know but it may help US. No chance.

Her sister is down next weekend. I said that after that we need to get on with it, a divorce only takes 2 weeks.

Anyway she left early, made a point of giving me a kiss on the way out and telling me she would ring on tuesday - ha! we will see.

I know you'll kick my bum and tell me patience etc etc, but I just can't carry on getting nothing back from her. I am not a bad person and there is no point in me having hope where there is none..

Graeme:

I won't kicke your bum, Believe me I know your frustration to well. But, if you really, honestly want her back, could you just try not to mention divorce for at least 3 months? Are you in a hurry?

I know how you feel, but she told you she didn't has think of divorce, that should make you happy. I don't think she would want to stay in this cituation for ever and if she is not or was thinking in divorce make me think that she is still evaluating the cituation.

I'm a BS not your wife, but a BS so I think I know was she is feeling too, don't pushed, even if you still get a divorce at the end, let her to be the one who said it and iniciated on her own.

Do not pusher one way or the other. I do not know if I make sence, maybe other can put in better ways what I'm trying to say.

Give her space, and when you talk to her, if she calles be NICE. Try your best and don't give up.

I know is eassier to said that done it, but TRY.

One of the things I regret, and regret not to had found this board earlier is that I used to resolved evrything by mention divorce, at the end I was the one who put the idea in his head, and that wasn't good. I understand sometimes when I get to frustrated I pression him to make a decision, but until today he haven't file and that said a lot.

Hi, of course I know you are right. It just seems so hard and pointless sometimes carrying on.

I forgot to say she also told me to stop writing to her.

<small>[ July 12, 2004, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: graeme ]</small>

Hi everyone, well I'm still about, and struggling on through this...

Since my last update, I've felt pretty good - I think just knowing that I needed to get on with my own life put a different complexion on things.

Last weekend, we all went out as a family, took the kids karting, had a meal and then went to the cinema (spiderman 2 - don't bother!!!). I had said to her that we needed to talk about sorting out the money and future arrangements as we couldn't even think about divorce till then.

She came around last night, we talked a lot - not as good as before, but not bad, went out for a meal then went back to mine to talk over money. I said that basically if we carry on as we are, then when we eventually get divorced I would be left with a lot of debt, and as she had said there was no chance then I didn't feel that was fair on me. I also said that I was in a real quandry because I wanted to look after them all, but it didn't look like I could afford to keep on doing that.

I showed her how I have been giving her more than double what the court would have.

Anyway we went through the figures and came to the only conclusion that we would have to sell the house. She's very reluctant to do anything just now and didn't want to talk about divorce. I think she did see that divorce is going to be painful 0 financially at least.

We also spoke about us, I said that I had lost all hope and just couldn't carry on any more being treated the way she was treating me. She said she would stop and would invite me over for dinner next weekend.

She said she wants to be friends, but does not want to get "back into" what we had before. She really does seem to have accepted and is happy with life on her own, and any feelings of love must be well suppressed if they're still there.

So I don't know any more - does she really want to be on her own? I think maybe I need help in building up the LB!

Hi all, well christmas is a time for reflection, so I've been reading my old story on here.

Nothing changed very much until the other week. I found her christmas card to her "friend" which I suspected but never knew till now. Seems this has been going on since the start of the year. I didn't ask too much but it's certainly been an EA and probably a lot more. She said she realised it was stupid (he's married) and says she has now ended it.

It's not bothering me too much because I can't blame her at all and I guess it explains a lot of things for me.

Oddly enough although the card was full of undying love stuff, ending it didn't seem to have a lot of impact on her. (yes I do believe she has). Seems the biggest part of it was she was swept away by someone wanting her.

We had a lot of heart to heart conversations over christmas, she's very negative about absolutely everything to do with me, just can't see any good in me or our marriage at all.. but she kept asking me over, in fact we spent the best part of 3 days near each other.

Hugging now seems to be allowed again but not kissing. Her mum is down now for 2 weeks so I have to stay out of the way (seems her mum doesn't like me much because she has been telling her how upset she is, strange after all this time to start talking to her now???).

I don't know if it's just false hope again but I do feel positive that there is more hope now that "he" is out of the way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lupolady:

Graeme,

It almost sounds like your W has met someone else, and is now ready to "move on" with her life....I don't want to alarm you, but just want you to consider that option. If that's so, you need to think about how you will handle that news.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am astounded, just read the start of my thread to find that lupolady was spot on right from the start.

Hi, graeme and everyone else:

I haven't been around much. First there were the three pesky hurricanes to deal with (still involved in that mess). Then my computer crashed.

Oh, yeah, and in the middle of all that? My X(w)H and I have RECONCILED and are now planning for our remarriage next spring!

Hallelujah!!

Graeme, tell me, how have things been going lately? It seems your W has now learned a hard lesson: Namely - it's easy to fall for someone when they start to meet your EN's. Second, the old "stand by, former (husband/wife) doesn't look so bad once you actually start looking around at the prospects out there......"

I don't read or post much anymore (too much to do working on a R!), but today, H is sick, sleeping soundly, so I jumped on line, and saw your recent post, so I just had to "catch up."

Take care, and God Bless,

Isn't this a horrible time of year without the ones you want to be with?

I know this is probably the wrong time to be making decisions but I'm really thinking that it can't go on like this. I can't (don't want to) move on and it seems that my wife is in the same position. It's not doing either of us much good.

I desperately want to fix things but I'm trying to be realistic here - I'm not getting many positive signs - certainly no affectionate ones & it just feels like a never ending spiral downwards. I feel it's the time for something to change so I'm really thinking that I should be starting to force the D issue. I guess I'm just scared to because it's not what I want, but it might be what we both need.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Lupolady

Is that fate or what - we post at exactly the same time!

Hey I'm so glad to hear your news! Absolutely excellent!!

I'll copy here a mail I sent to my councellor last week - I had stopped going but as she was the one that knew the full story I wanted her advice.

===================

Hi xxxxxx,

Hope you had a great christmas and are looking forward to the new year?

Hope you don't mind me writing - I have a few things I need to understand & you are the only one that knows the full "blow by blow" story.

Maybe I ought to arrange an appointment? In anycase I'll tell you the story and take your advice on it...

You know I have been fitting the kitchen for W, well things were going very well - it was noticable after a while that she became more comfortable with me, was always around asking if she could help, came along when I went out for stuff and often went out for dinner afterwards.

She asked me if I would go christmas shopping with her a couple of weeks ago. I hummed and hawed but eventually said yes, so I picked her up & we went into coventry. She made a huge point of paying for everything - maybe not deliberately but it stuck out a mile. Then we went for a chinese meal afterwards. Again she insisted on paying.

When I dropped her off at the house I said "ok I'll see you at christmas then". She said "why not before - surely you'll come over for tea next week sometime". I said "well not much need, the kitchen is done now".

Anyway she rang the following monday, to ask me to pick up a parcel to post. Said she wanted me to come for tea either that night or the next. I stood my ground and said "why? there's no us so what's the point?". She insisted & said she'd cook my favourite so I said ok.

Went over & had a nice tea, said I would get the christmas food and would be over on the day.

I was to pick her mum up from the airport after christmas (have always got on ok) but she said her mum had said it was time she moved on and she didn't want me to.

That was the monday. On wednesday the boys rang to say the shower was broken so I popped over in the morning (she was at work). While I was there I found her christmas card to the "other man". Seems I was right all along. There was one of these poem things you get with the message that she'd written "love you forever, your angel Jackie xxx". So I left it out so she would see I had seen it, with a very rude note saying "Fxxx you and christmas". It was the same name that I had found on the computer back in april, so he has been around since before she told me it was over.

She rang when she saw it. Obviously had a go about me raking about. I let her think that I knew a lot more than I actually did. It seems he's married, she doesn't see him that often but I gather are constantly on the phone. She said she just liked someone liking her, and knew that she could never have him. She was very worried I would drop him in it with his wife, although I insisted I had no interest in him. It was obvious there has been a physical relationship but mostly an emotional one I think. I told her she was a hypocrite and a liar etc. Also told her she was an idiot getting involved with someone elses wife & when she found out (said if I had found out then she surely would) then Jackie should be able to imagine how it would feel. I said I had no interest at all in seeing her while she had someone else.

I called about something the next day. She said she realised how stupid she had been and didn't want to hurt anyone else so was going to end it. I said well ok call me after it's over then we'll talk.

She called later, said she had said seen him and said that was it, all he said was "fair dos". I believe her, but am surprised that on the surface she does not seen to be grieving at all. An "angel" keyring and "angel" crystal hanging in the car have appeared and I'm guessing that was her present from him. She didn't show any guilt at all to me and certainly in her mind finished it because it was wrong, not because of me.

I said well we better talk before christmas & get this out of the way, so she told me to come over. I did and did my usual "love you, been so stupid etc" she was absolutely not affected by my blubbering & was very negative about all aspects of our life together, she kept talking about me running her down and controlling her & that she wasn't going into that again. She keeps saying why can't we just be friends.

Every little thing is a negative to her just now. Anyway we had a good chat, at one point holding hands on the couch & I did feel we had connected a lot more than for ages.

I asked what she was doing christmas eve she said nothing so I asked if she wanted to do something as a family. Yes she did.

So we went to the snowdome, had a good time, then back to the house for a takeaway. We got chating again,

We got on to her mum - and it seems that she had told her mum how she was feeling just recently & that's what put the mum off me. I don't know what was said but it was enough to worry the mum. I asked why now after almost 4 years but didn't get much answer except money etc. She's obviously very very unhappy and has the whole world on her shoulders. I asked who she talks to & her sister seems to be the only one, although also her mother recently and her best friend a little bit. She feels no-one cares about her feelings. I tried to say she needs to talk but that caused an eruption about "councellors writing to her"!!

Anyway it seems that hugs are allowed again although I got "why do you have to spoil it" when I tried to kiss her on my way home.

Christmas day went well, I was over there all day & a lot of the time it was just me and her in the living room. When I was out in the garage with my son, she would come out to join in with us. No serious chat just "family stuff".

I said I'd be over the next day with a part that was missing from my sons present. She said well you can make curry from the rest of the turkey. So boxing day was there all day again.

She was worried about not having money to feed her mum so I gave her some.

When I went I said that I'd stay out of the way while her mum was down, she said yes good idea, then had a moan about her mum being a skinflint (which she is) said that no-one helps her except for me...

She's shown no interest at all in what I'm thinking or what I'm doing over new year, has never asked a thing.

She called yesterday morning to thank me for giving her money and on the way to pick up her mum in the afternoon (with my son driving) she phoned to say they were lost & could I direct them..) They she called again when mum was in the car - they were lost again, must say I was surprised she called when her mum was there though.

I obviously don't want to think about this other man, but do actually feel it's a big step forwards IF he is out of the way now. Seems to me that he came along at just the right time for her and showed her a lot more attention than me.

I'm not upset about any of it, I do know the key for me is to continue to get myself sorted out with gym work etc.

What do you think, or should I come in?

So, graeme,

Wanna know what *I* would do in your sitch???

Understand now that my perspective is totally different, having H here with me now.......

It's easy for me to make this suggestion, I understand that. Could I follow it a year or two ago? Don't know, but now, looking back, knowing what I know, and having things worked out the way they are.........

I would say it's time to play HARD BALL. Yup. I would definitely talk to OM. I would let him know you intend to blow the whistle on his A with YOUR W, unless he breaks it off totally and cleanly IMMEDIATELY, you will go to his W. It's time to "out" this thing. Then, if he cries to your W that you did so, I would tell his W, and then tell your W that you are ready to tell her MUM, too!!! No sense you looking like the only bad guy here.

THEN, I would tell W that if she isn't set on a reconciliation with you, you are going to have to cut off ties with her (and then go dark, totally black, aka Plan B).

Graeme, here's what you are not realizing. YOU ARE IN THE DRIVER'S SEAT NOW.

Now that you know what is driving your W's actions, having OM in her life (feeling like she has "someone" she can replace you with), she's been giving you a ration of Sh*t. Well, now, since SHE's having a nasty little A of her own, SHE's the one who is not in a position to "deal" and must abide by YOUR conditions.

Graeme, listen. There's no sense trying to reconcile or get through to her, or have her see you as repentant or trying to be nice to her as long as there's someone else in the picture. It doesn't work. The loyalty is divided.

But you can force her hand. Yes, she might run to him. But the fact that he's M'd, and (apparently) his W is unaware of his A works in your favor. It puts him in the position of defending himself and having to deal with the dirty details of revealing if you bring this out in the open. That's ALWAYS a wild card. Harely says REVEAL to EVERYONE every chance you get!! This is your chance.

Get on the offensive, my friend. There's only 2 ways this can turn out. Obviously, you're no closer to the one solution by doing what you have been doing. Now that you have more "knowledge," it gives you an advantage for doing what needs to be done to force your W off the fence and out into either direction. Either of which is better than what you have now, don't you think?

Take care and God Bless,