Need help to recover marriage - Marriage Builders® Forums

3 years ago I left my wife and 2 children (boys of 11 and 14 at the time). Our life was boring and I wanted more. I did not see my wife as the woman I had married, just a fat mother - and yes I know now that I let her know that.

I moved some 15 miles away, on my own. It was not a pleasant time.
At all times I made sure that my family was looked after financially.
The strange part is that we still had a sexual relationship - very good in fact, around 3 times a week we would meet.

After a year I met someone else and moved in with them, I knew this was wrong at the time, but I sort of got dragged into it.
My wife was obviously very hurt by this, but never the less we continued to meet regularly.

The relationship lasted till about a year ago, when we split up and I moved again on my own.
My wife was supportive, helping me move etc.

Things started to get better between us, we would go on holiday, stay over at each others houses etc.
But all the time there was been this barrier between us, knowing what happened but unable to really speak about it.

I guess I was happy with having my freedom, and my wife when I wanted her...

Anyway I think it came to the point where moving back in together was getting closer and she changed totally.

She said she does not want to go back through the pain she has suffered and is happy on her own with the boys, but wants to be friends, and no longer lovers.
She said she has got good friends and that she does not need a man.

I don't really think she has met anyone else, although of course I jumped to that conclusion.
But I have asked her, and believe her, and also she never goes out (although she does work full time)

Of course this was a big wake up call for me and I realised how stupid I had been and how I wanted my family back again
I finally started thinking about what my wife has been through, and obviously the guilt hit me.
So all I want now is to get back home and spend my life making things up to her

This all came to a head 2 weeks ago, since then I've tried all the usual wrong things, telling her how I love her and want family back etc.
I have written to her, spoken to her etc

She is now unbelievably cold towards me, even to the extent of not giving me a hello or goodbye kiss when I pick up the kids.

She freely says she doesnt know why shes changed, "maybe because now I can have you I dont want you"
We did have a long phone conversation a couple of nights ago, and I am going round for lunch on sunday.
It was a difficult conversation, I felt that she was almost at the point of having a breakdown, talking normally one minute then getting emotional etc

My thoughts are that she is terrified of going through more pain so she has decided (subconciously or not) that she is better off on her own.
She gets annoyed if I try to have a serious conversation.

I am desperate for some thoughts or advice on how I can fix this.

Thank you for reading this

[ December 31, 2004, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: graeme ]

Sorry, I'm new here and probally shouldn't be giving advice, but are you seriously wondering why she doesn't want to continue a relationship with you?
You tell her she's unattractive, leave her to "sow your oats" while she raises your children, you meet a new woman and yet keep your wife on the side, completely disregarding how any of this made her feel... Come on now, you can't really be surprised that she finally decided to move on? You recognize now how stupid (and selfish?) you were- but do you realize that you are doing it still? Right now you are AGAIN not considering what SHE wants- only what you want- your family back. Think about what she wants for once. If you do that she might see that you are willing to change...

Again, I'm new so I'm sure you'll get better advice from the diplomatic veterans...

Thanks, I agree completely with you. I just don't know how to do it

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by graeme:
 I just don't know how to do it <hr /></blockquote>Graeme,

It almost sounds like your W has met someone else, and is now ready to "move on" with her life....I don't want to alarm you, but just want you to consider that option. If that's so, you need to think about how you will handle that news.

Dicentra gives good advice.....you seem to have lost sight of the fact that your W has waited around quite a long time to have changes happen, but they seem to only have come after it's too late.

It may or may not be too late. But there IS good news......there is a way to bring love back into a relationship. But it isn't easy, and there isn't a magic pill that will guarantee it. Click on the link above for "Concepts" and read about Plan A.

Plan A is usually used to negotiate trying to get the WS away from the OP. However, these "practices" (Plan A) are also good to use to keep the LB$ (Love Bank) deposits coming toward your spouse so they aren't tempted to stray. See, we only feel "fulfilled" and "in love" in our M's when our LB$ is full up. It's when our EN's (Emotional Needs) are not being met that we feel unhappy, unloved, tempted to look elsewhere.........
It's all outlined in the Concepts pages. Please go there and read all about it. THEN start Plan A'ing your W! She needs to know you have changed (this could take some time to prove to her). She needs to know you WANT to be there for her all the time (something else she doesn't believe right now, based on past behavior).

Plan A will give her a chance to have Love Units deposited into her LB$ BY YOU once again. It's probably a pretty big deficit right about now.

As I said, start meeting her EN's, making LB$ deposits, and give her T-I-M-E to heal.

God Bless,

Thank you, I must say that until just yesterday I was still my old me me me me self. Even though I had thought I had "woken up", it was just selfishness again. Your posts have helped me realise how lucky I am that my wife has not completely dumped me yet. I still have hope because we talk on the phone, she specifically does not want a legal divorce yet and she has invited me round to cook a family dinner tomorrow.

Yes there may be someone else around, and I have thought of this. But she says there's not and is never out - she has her work in a local school, with good friends there and spends her evenings cleaning the house and reading. Although the thought does eat at me, deep down I believe her, and I guess I think well if there is then there is...

I do understand most things now, whether or not I can change sufficiently or permanently enough to save things remains to be seen.

I've read most of the Concepts here and they are like a shining light. I hope that I genuinely am starting to believe them, and not just using them as another tool to get what I want for myself. You see I can be honest about my motivations as well.

As well as selfishness, my other big fault is impatience!
I think I need to get some books to read, can you recommend any?

The other thing I am thinking of is counceling, I don't think it would be right to mention this to my wife yet, I think it would be better to go myself, make some visible progress, then tell her - what do you think.

Don't quite know how to go about this as in in the UK, I presume most of you are in the US are you? And most of the stuff I can find is US related. I guess I'll start with my GP.

Thanks again and keep them coming please it's a great help!

Well I went over for lunch today. It was ok but strained. Wasn't much of a chance to talk because 17 year old son was hanging about constantly. Despite all the reading and thinking I've done, I've got to say that all I really wanted to do was break down and beg forgiveness. I tried being positive, but I know that she was waiting all the time for me to do something. I did make a huge mistake and say "i'm trying" she got annoyed and said "I knew you'd say something!" I suggested I look after the kids on the holiday coming up and she could go away to a beach with her friend (she loves the sun). But she rubbished that immediately. So I came away feeling very despondant again. We've spoken nearly every night on the phone and it is very good and relaxed, but when I see her it's strained. She's very cold with me and I know it would be pointless trying to talk about us. I think shes decided its time to move on. I don't know what to do now.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by graeme:
I've got to say that all I really wanted to do was break down and beg forgiveness.<hr /></blockquote>It's good you didn't! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I did make a huge mistake and say "i'm trying" she got annoyed and said "I knew you'd say something!" <hr /></blockquote>There ya go!! A CLUE that she doesn't want any *pressure* put on her. Just keep Plan A'ing....and being very calm, nice, pleasant to talk to.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />We've spoken nearly every night on the phone and it is very good and relaxed, but when I see her it's strained. She's very cold with me and I know it would be pointless trying to talk about us. I think shes decided its time to move on. I don't know what to do now. <hr /></blockquote>Plan A, Plan A, PLAN A~!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Keep reading here, keep learning, growing.

This takes time, my friend.

God Bless,

[ May 09, 2004, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: lupolady ]

Thanks, this board is immense support to me. It gives me hope.

I'm still confused over Plan A - I know I need to be pleasant, no-pressure, supportive and a nice person to be with. I can see that I need to fill up her love bank. I know the messages I need to get across to her, but she doesn't seem to be listening to them.

I also suspect that a lot of patience is needed. We ended on a "see you sometime" ... I guess I know really that all this started 3 years ago and I ain't going to fix it overnight....

I came home and wrote a peom - the first time I have every done that (I'm 46). She likes poetry and I know that at the right time she would appreciate it. But I think I should probably hold off for a while??

It's Never Too Late

I have wronged you
I have hurt you
I did not listen
And now you are gone

I have been selfish
I have been jealous
I know this now
But is it too late

When I met you I knew
You were the one for me
Then I forgot
How could I

If only I could go back and change
But I can't
All I can do is ensure
The future is like the start

But

It's never too late
To right a wrong
It's never too late
To start again

Never having done any poetry I was quite proud of that!
I am going to find some counceling tomorrow, unfortunately the US seems to be far more advanced than the UK!

Graeme,

Personally, I think if you get the chance to give it to her, I would.

In fact, I DID! Only it wasn't poetry! But I wrote a sort of "apology" letter to WH. About things I recognized I had failed in our M. I mailed it to him, as he had moved 200 miles away.

Did he read it? I have NO idea. To this day (almost 3 years later), it has never been mentioned. But what I did, I did for ME as much as for HIM. I needed to verbalize (to both of us) that I had failed in certain aspects of our M. I'm glad I did that, even if he never read it. It was cathartic.

Let me just add: If you DO give it to her, do it with NO expectations. You are right to say this won't be fixed in days....it will take time. Time is ALL you have on your side now, so don't fear it.

They say it could take as many MONTHS as you were M'd in years before a turn around could take place........so do the math. Keep in mind that your W had to endure the awful pain of infidelity.........

She's probably still angry about that, as well. Yes, this will take some time. Keep reading, keep posting, keep fixing YOU. Try to get your hands on some of Harley's materials, OR call them for phone consultation (yes, I'm sure very expensive from UK, but might be worth it).

God Bless,

Hi again,

Well I did try writing to her before - did about 1000 things wrong though! I put it through the letter box at 1am (she was annoyed in the morning that I had been round at that time), And mainly - it was all about ME! But I learnt that one, and this time I would write it in a nice card and post it. What do you think of the words?

I thought about calling but like you say I'd probably end up bankrupt, so I think I'll try and find a local one - who knows when I tell her I'm going she might come with me some day.

Yes I need to work on ME! (Thats probably a lifetime task in itself!)

Graeme

Well I think I decided not to give her the poem yet. She clearly doesn't want any pressure so I'm going to try and not give her any.

I also found a therapist locally that sounds just what I need to learn to change! Hopefully I will get an appointment this week.

Graeme

I just had to catch up on your story after I rebuked you on Wish’s thread. Sorry. I guess I was a little defensive.

Anyway, no poem yet. I’ve received several poems in my life, and much depends on the frame of mind of the receiver.

And of course she doesn’t want to listen to you! You’ve behaved like a donkey, and she’s let you. See, at this point, it’s not just about you. It’s about her self-respect. The fact that she let you treat her like a strumpet is probably eating away at her.
So right now, she may want to regain her self respect. And probably the only way she sees that she can do that is by giving you the ole heave ho.

On the positive note, she put up with you for this long, so quite possibly she knows your redeeming qualities and likes those.

So here’s where you get to demonstrate patience. It’s the worst part of it all, IMHO. I hate waiting. Just waiting. It’s hard work!

GG - no problem, I just want to start contributing back to this as people are being really helpful to me.

I understand about the poem - it could be the breakthrough or the end depending on the mood - just too risky right now.

I think you have it spot on. She keeps talking about what people will think of her, I know she has had a huge knock to her self esteem. She talks about holding her head up high, not needing anyone, and losing weight. It's just impossible just now to break through the barrier she has put up.

I just called her as I do every night - she wouldn't pick up to start with but did eventually, so we had a little chat, nothing good or bad from it.

But to be positive I also think she has waited this long, and suffered so much that she must know there is something worth saving.

Yes patience is difficult, but I keep telling myself she gave me almost 3 years. Deep down I am convinced that the breakthrough will come. I'm really not sure if constantly contacting her is a good thing or not?

Graeme

Graeme, I think one of the keys to your situation - for your own sanity as well as for your wife's comfort - is something to which lupolady alluded: drop your expectations.

You need to put yourself in a frame of mind where you do not ask yourself whether something you say or do might win your wife back. Instead, approach your situation with this one overriding question: "How can I love my wife?"

And one of the keys to that is to allow your wife to set the boundaries of her comfort zone.

The reason you shouldn't give that poem to your wife right now is not that it's "risky"; it's that it crosses the boundaries she has implicitly set.

Of course, implicit boundaries are difficult to work with. It would be good if you could discuss the boundary issue with your wife. Let her know that you appreciate the pain and damage your choices have brought her, and that you have no right to expect her forgiveness or to ask for another chance. Let her know that you can't "make it up to her" for what you've done, but you'll do as much as you can according to what she permits, and you'll do it with no strings attached - so that if she eventually decides to walk away you will not use against her the fact that for a time she permitted you to be involved in her life. In other words, you will not interpret any softening toward you as "leading you on," but rather you will honor whatever boundaries she sets - whether she moves them further or closer - and you will be grateful to her for being open to however much that turns out to be.

And mean it. All of it. Otherwise, you will be caught up in a mode of selfishness again. And self-pity.

GDP - Yet again I am amazed at how sensible the advice I get on here is. I know you are 100% right, changing my behaviour is of course the hard bit!

I have found what seems to be a good therapist here and am currently arranging an appointment

Good for you. I personally would stop contacting her every day. Except to talk to the children which can be brief.

Clingy is not a pleasant trait in women and is terrible in men. So, ease up. The one thing you do want to avoid is having her lose weight and then appearing interested.

We women know attractive spouse is important, but we don't like it any more than men like to hear that financial support is important.

So, respect her boundaries. If she doesn't pick up after 4 rings, hang up. That's plenty of time and if she wants you she can *69.

(Who chose those numbers by the way!)

GG - what do you mean about financial support?

I just mean that financial support is often one of the top 5 emotional needs of women, just as physically attractive spouse is usually a top 5 EN of men. I think it has to do with status really. Having “caught” a wealthy or successful man is an unspoken badge of honor to this day. So is having a attractive wife.

It’s an unpleasant truth.

GG, Well she can never say I haven't done that. Financially, my family haven't suffered at all. But I don't know how much longer I can keep doing that - the debts seem never ending!

I had gathered you were a very good provider and still are. I was really just commenting on the Physical Attractiveness need. Most women hate to admit that we are love for our looks along with other wonderful qualities. We'd secretly love to be able to let ourselves get plump, go without any make-up, wear whatever. It's hard for us to hera our husbands dont find us attractive however we may look at that exact minute. Screws with our self image.

I have to believe men have a similar ambivielance about the Financial support need. In general. I hear tell of men who are proud that their wives don't work inside the home or outside. They enjoy having a country club wife or a horsey wife.

Oh, ignore my ramblings. It's been rough and weird today.

How on earth do I get her to talk to me! I leave her alone for a couple of days.. I just rang - not pleased to hear my voice, we make small talk for a while, ask how she is etc, tell her what I've been doing etc. I was very friendly, not at all worked up. Then she says well I better let you go. I say look it's not good that we can't even talk these days. She blows up and says well you're just where I was 3 years ago, I've come out of it now I'm not in your space am I we're just going to be friends. I said yes but we have common space, kids house etc, we still have to get on. She says dont blackmail me, you see the kids when you want just don't involve me. I say well I think you just want me to disappear. She says no I'm going to disappear.

I've got to say I'm getting really annoyed at her now.

G- What are you doing???? Why did you call her? She’s starting to irritate you? I think you might be irritating her as well.

For a least a little while you’re role is that of the master’s well trained dog. You are underneath the table patiently waiting for any tidbit your master may want to throw your way. You are NOT begging, howling, growling, nor are you running off with the first person who offers you a bone.

I know you’re not a dog, but the analogy works on the surface.

I know you’re hurt and your ego is bruised. I wish it weren’t so, but it is. Your wife doesn’t want to talk to you right now. If you pressure her to, you’re demonstrating that you only care about what YOU want and not what she feels is good for her.

So, let’s brainstorm how you can respect her need for space and protection from you, protect you from the pain of rejection, and protect the possibility of reconciliation from you both!

How about writing her a letter or email saying that you realize you’ve been hurtful, etc. You want to be with her, but realize she may not want to be with you right now. You’d love to hear from her any time she wants, but in order not to offend her with your presence, you won’t be contacting her except via email or an intermediary in order to schedule the children’s visitation.

Hi, I think I'm just worried that if I don't keep in contact then I will lose her for good.

Is this normal behaviour? Can I really expect for her to change again when she is so cold to me? I just don't understand how she can suddenly change so much (a month ago we were on holiday, 3 weeks ago we slept together...). Yes I know about LB etc....

Ok so I know the theory is that I back off a lot and be patient, it just doesn't feel right to me.

I have my councellor on monday so I know I need to hang off till then at least.

Not sure about writing to her - the last time I did that didn't go down very well!

Just very frustrated just now!

Of course it doesn't feel right. Your instincts say hang on for dear life. Unfortunately, our instincts are not good guides in relationships. Mating is instictual. Long-term relationships like marriage are counter-instinctual.

If you're worried, don't write. If you do write, post it here first asking for editing.

I can't tell you how many times my letters were rewritten and rewritten by those here. (Thanks, all!)

Finally, just for fun I'd post spoofs of letters I'd written.

So, it's Thursday night. Do you have the kids this weekend? If not, what's your survival plan to get you through a weekend alone?

Hiya,

No intentions of writing (well of sending a letter anyway! I will no doubt carry on writing hundreds of them!) I know in my heart to give her space and time.

I'm not seeing the kids this weekend - won't see them till tuesday. I just got my "His needs Her needs" book so that will keep me busy for a while (then no doubt I will want to take her round a copy!).

I do have lots to do - housework :-( and a lot of papers to type up, so I'll make myself get stuck in through the weekend! I may just post the last letter I wrote (but didn't send) to her, no intentions of sending it but comments would be interesting...

Thanks again, the help keeps me going!

Hi all,

Well a little bit of an update from me....
I haven't been in touch except for yesterday when there was a problem with our youngest son. Won't go into his problem but the conversation was ok but strained and I could tell I was not welcome.

So I just got back from by first appointment with my councellor. As you would expect most of the time was spent going through my story. She thinks there is hope and basically the plan is for me to have 2-3 appointments myself working on myself and then if necessary, she will contact my wife and see if she will go along on her own.

In the meantime I got the same advice that everyone else has been telling me = patience patience patience!

In the words of the councellor, all the traffic has been going from me to my wife, so I need to stop that and see if I can get some reversal in this!

So must keep busy now & get through some "patient" time!

Graeme

Hi all, a bit of an update,

So - I haven't seen her at all for two weeks now, and no contact of any sort for a week. I've still seen the kids, but I've been picking them up at the door and just dropping them off again. Anyway today I went round for the eldest (I'm teaching him to drive), was just about to drive off when she came out. Started asking how I was etc what had I been up to and wasn't I coming in for a minute to catch up! So I went in, we chatted very friendly about what we each had been doing etc. Then she said did I want to get some steaks while I was out and have a bbq when we got back! Well I was stunned and delighted of course. So when we got back we sat and spoke for a couple of hours about the kids, what we'd been doing and quite a bit about how she would like to go to college and change her career. She asked me to sort out her car tax for her. No emotional or "couple" talk at all. Then we had the bbq and I came home, just a peck on the cheek as I was leaving. All very friendly... So of course I'm hoping that this is the start of us building a relationship again, I guess lots more patience is needed though!

Graeme,

This is certainly GOOD news!!!

Steady as she goes, my friend. And slow. DOn't rush things, don't expect much at first.

BUT, you must remember - NO EXPECTATIONS - No relationship talk. Let her come to you on HER terms, and in her own time.

I am right there with you..........H is calling, but very infrequently, and we talk very friendly. This is nice, but of course, I long for more..........just trying to be patient.

I call it "testing the waters." Keep focused on YOU and being the best father to your children you can be.

God Bless,

Lupolady,

Thanks for the encouragement. Yes I was very careful not to get into any "heavy" talk. Must say it was quite easy, we were both quite relaxed. I know now that patience works, I'm actually amazed that it worked after such a short time! Problem I have is that my councellor was going to contact her in a week or two to see if she would go in and have a session on her own, I'm now thinking I should maybe let that lie for a while, but I will discuss it with my councellor tomorrow.

Glad to here your H is calling, that's a good start too, however infrequent to begin with!

Graeme

Hi, well not a very productive week, the last 2 days have been hard. I'm not sleeping and yes I know my expectations are too high...

My councellor was pleased with the contact last weekend and we agreed that I should carry on this plan. But nothings happened.. No contact from her at all.

I feel like it's time for me to give up and just take the papers round to her, tell her if that's what she wants she can have a divorce. What's the point? I can change, I can make this a good marriage again, but not by myself, maybe I should just accept it and try to move on.

G-, I’m hoping that today you’re feeling a little differently. But just in case you aren’t… bend over and assume the position for the kick in the you-know-what.

If you give up now, I’d say you don’t deserve her at all! All you have to do is be patient. Let her be in control. Roll with it and accept with gracious gratitude any time or energy she cares to expend on you.

Your wife is not mistreating you. All she’s doing is protecting herself. She’s probably scared to death to get too involved with you because who knows what may happen. You could slip back into your old ways.

So get a grip. If you really want your wife as your wife, you’re going to have to be patient. If that’s not what you want… then my advice would be different.

So, did my tell-it-like-it-is approach work? Do you feel invigorated, or at least thoroughly annoyed at me? In my experience there is nothing like a counter-irritant.

GG - make it a good hard kick! It's hard, really hard but just a message of support like that does wonders! You made me smile not annoyed!

I know I need to be more patient, the hard bit is getting through the days/weeks when nothing happens. I am working on myself, and will get there. It just gets sooooo tempting to do something to get a reaction!!

This is the woman I want to spend my life with there's no doubt about that, it gets stronger every day. I know that just 20 minutes away from me are my wife and my children and I so badly want to do the normal things with them.

I saw my councellor today and we concentrated on a few things I need to do for myself - get down to the gym, get a hobby, maybe some voluntary work. So I've got to get on with that from tomorrow.

Graeme (keep kicking me please!!)

OK, let take a swipe at it...... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I promise it won't hurt - THIS TIME!!

Graeme, you are to have NO EXPECTATIONS. That doesn't mean for a day, or one whole week. IT MEANS AT ALL. Till SHE's ready.

Please calm down!!

This is going to take TIME. T-I-M-E.Get it?? You've hurt her immensely. Give her time to heal ffrom that.......

Keep reading, keep growing, keep improving yourself.

I do this by thinking: I've got nothing else to do, I've got lots of time on my hands......I'm going to work on X-Y-Z.........when we get back together, won't H be THRILLED with the "new me?"

See?

Working on YOU, self-improvement. Your counselor hit the nail squarely on the head with the advice: "Go volunteer, take up a hobby, go lift weights, etc."

Good advice.

Then again, you can always come here and post! That's what I do! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

God Bless,

And really, Gramae. Just because you can’t see or hear it or feel it, doesn’t mean nothing is happening. All around us tiny little electrons are having a huge dance party, but we can’t hear them or see them. We’re too big.

All around us the universe continues to expand and the plant spins around an axis and circles the sun. But we can’t feel it because we’re too small.

Things are cooking. Sometimes we catch a wift that teases us, but we aren’t in on the big picture. The Creator is the only one who sees the whole. So, we just need to be patient.

Thanks lupolady and greengables,

I know I need to learn patience and concentrate on me. I genuinely am getting myself up and running, maybe i'm slow and it takes a lot of forcing me but I know it will get easier.

I had the kids out today, so when I took them back I went in. Spoke to W for about an hour. All was very friendly. No relationship stuff and plenty of the telling her what I'm doing to get out and about. We both stick to very safe topics and I know it's not the time to get any deeper.

The hard bit is seeing absolutely no signs of affection from her while inside I just want to reach out and hug her.

Should I be doing anything else?

Graeme

Anonymous flowers may be okay. Pay in cash and have them delivered. If you really want to have fun, send a card, but leave it entirely blank, or put one word down like “Because.” But you can’t write anything that would point to you, or that would seem to ask for something in return. For instance, you should not say “Just because I love you.” Too much pressure.

The hard part is that you won’t get any response. This would be something you’d do only to bring joy to her. You won’t reap the benefit of it at all.

On the other hand, your wife will feel excited, intrigued and sexy. She will know someone out there cares about her.

Oh, my! Have you seen that cliché Doris Day movie Pillow Talk? Rock Hudson woos Doris Day as a naïve cowboy. Meanwhile, he’s also a playboy who’s fallen for her big time. Hmm. Now that I think about it, it doesn’t work.

But you could, slowly, stick a toe in the water. How many women dream of a secret admirer that loves and cherishes them and wants them bad, who in the end turns out to be their husband? Probably Big Blue’s super machine couldn’t calculate that number.

Greengables - Hmmmm that's a very tempting thought! But I think maybe I like it because it's actually doing something rather than being patient and waiting with my no expectations!

Trouble is she would know it was me right away - and probably ask me! Or worse hide them from me if she thought there was an admirer out there!

Graeme

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
 Anonymous flowers may be okay. Pay in cash and have them delivered. <hr /></blockquote>Naw. I wouldn't do it.

It seems "manipulative" somehow. And if she already sees you as manipulative, or controlling, or aggravating (cause you won't leave her alone), I would think it would only send her further away.

I really would just be patient! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

When I wanted to do something - ANYTHING to keep my "memory" in front of my H, cause I thought he would somehow *forget* me, etc.....I kept getting messages (here and other places), about just waiting patiently. I didn't like it, but nothing else really worked. So I did.

Now, we talk rather regularly, and things seem to have turned toward a better direction for us.

Please try being patient, and doing nothing right now. Give it a month or two, and see if she starts give you a little more attention.

Praying for you, Graeme

God Bless,

Thanks you again. I know you are right.

Keep kicking me!
Tomorrow I give up smoking!!!!!

Graeme

I defer to LupoLady on the flowers.

How's the quitting coming?

Well that's 8 hours 34 minutes and 10 seconds so far! Not that I'm counting..... I could do with one but am resisting!!!

Graeme

Hi again, I'm in letter writing mood tonight... I know I won't/can't send it just now but it helps a bit and I thought that one day maybe I could....

W,

Yes another letter! But I haven't written for a while so I hope you'll forgive me!

I just wanted to say a few things, we don't talk much about relationship stuff these days so this seems as good a way as any.

I know you must be worrying about where we go next. Like you, I know that the one thing we can't do is stay in this "no mans land" for ever. Well at the end of the day, whichever way you decide to go, I'm sure will be the right thing for you.

I've done a huge amount of thinking and soul searching the last few months. You don't know this but I have been seeing a councellor for some time, since you gave me the "shock awakening". In the sessions we talk about me, and the things I can do to improve myself, for myself. I know myself so much better now and I really think I am starting to become a better person. I really feel as if I have walked out of a thick fog - one that didn't just last 3 years, but back to when we didn't have problems.

3 years ago you asked if I would go to councelling with you, stupidly I didn't. Now that I know how valuable and helpful it can be I want to say that if you still think it could be useful to us in reaching a decision, then I would love to go.

Go on then - rip it to bits! lol

graeme:

I'm not going to "rip it to bits" - but to congratulate you on working through your "issues."

It's a good thing to look inside yourself, to improve yourself. Whether W ever reads these letters or not (I KNOW you're not sending them!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> is not even at issue. What is the most important thing here is that YOU are doing it, YOU are becoming aware of your "junk" and can see how it wounded your W.

This is all GOOD!!!

Listen, my friend, when I started this journey.....about 3 years ago as well......H was G-O-N-E. I NEVER thought he'd turn around, or let me talk to him about any of this.....

I was learning soooooo much and wanted so desperately to share it with him. I was SO SURE it would open his eyes, and he'd jump right on the bandwagon, and we'd HEAL TOGETHER.

Didn't happen. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

It's not that he didn't need it. It's just that - from what I've learned here - couples usually go through "this stuff" at a different pace. Usually one before the other, and the one who's going through CANNOT drag the other with them!! It won't work, and it won't have any effect.

In other words, Till she's ready to look inward, make changes in HER, let herself heal, look back towards YOU, and try to repair your M, there's nothing you can say or do (write her letters) that will push her in that direction.

Graeme, listen, here's what I'm saying. Keep doing what you're doing. I KNOW it seems like NOTHING. It's NOT!! What you're doing is huge. You are healing YOU.

YOU will be a stronger, more confident, capable partner to help fix your M when she's ready to make the turn and come toward you instead of turning away.

You're doing fine. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

God Bless,

It's not that he didn't need it. It's just that - from what I've learned here - couples usually go through "this stuff" at a different pace. Usually one before the other, and the one who's going through CANNOT drag the other with them!! It won't work, and it won't have any effect.

How about giving her just a nudge! lol

YOU will be a stronger, more confident, capable partner to help fix your M when she's ready to make the turn and come toward you instead of turning away.

How will I know when she's ready?

Oh what silly questions - I know already what the answers are. But it's nice to post & chat here!

Graeme

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by graeme:

How will I know when she's ready?

Oh what silly questions - I know already what the answers are. But it's nice to post & chat here!

<hr /></blockquote><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

GG/Lupolady, I could do with some thoughts on what's happening....

No worries about me - I'm getting along fine, but I just don't understand what's going on with my W.

Not sure if I said already, I was made redundant 6 weeks ago (no worries it was expected..) so money will become an issue if I don't get another job soon..

Well W should be worried about what will happen with money, and the house, but she never asks anything (remember I still pay the mortgage and give her a decent amount every month.
She never goes out. I'm sure there's no-one else involved.

When we do talk - sometimes it's good, sometimes bad for no particular reason, most of the time she just wants to be on her own I think.

I was in the house with the kids today & I found some writings she does (short prose type things) - now ok I know I shouldn't be looking but who could resist! Anyway, the stuff is very doom & gloom - it smacks of depression to me.

She never takes the kids out (ok they're 14 & 17 and can amuse themselves) but as they've all just been off school/work for a week I would have thought at least a day out??

So of course I want her to want me again, but I'm also worried about her, it looks very much like she has depression to me...

What do you think?
Graeme

How doom and gloom? Are we talking suicide here? It makes a difference. If there's a lot about death and/or suicide, I'd confront her and try to get her help.

If it's just dark, I'd let it go for now. If she's depressed and you confront her, she may pull further away which won't help either of you.

I speak as one who has suffered 3 clinical depressions, not to mention minor shadow depressions.

If you think she's suicidal, you need to ask her directly and get a direct response. This is hard to do. It's scary for both people.The big questions are Are you thinking about hurting yourself? and Do you have a plan? Yes to the first means get help a.s.a.p. A yes to the second means take her to the psychiatric emergency room adn have her admitted.

I know it sounds really drastic but you're not living in the house to get a real sense of the danger. And many suicide attmepts surprise those who live with the victim/perpetrator.

So, I guess the answer is "It depends."

How old is your wife?

Hi, She has just turned 39 - and I know it bothers her, She has said for a long time that one day she will just disappear, and there have been veiled "wish i could just die" comments, but no I don't really think so. She has always said one day she will just disappear, it just sounds like talk to me. The writing is stuff like

- I'm beautiful inside no-one sees it
- The kids are making an awful noise
- My friends are so valuable
- I will get my own pad soon
- I should have gone to the doctor by now

I worry that she does not talk to anyone and seems not to care about anything, if something doesn't get her out of it, then I think she will sink deeper into it.

Graeme

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by graeme:

I worry that she does not talk to anyone and seems not to care about anything, if something doesn't get her out of it, then I think she will sink deeper into it.

Graeme <hr /></blockquote>I agree, Graeme.

Can you talk to your kids about how their mother "acts" at home? You need to make sure they understand you are not "spying" on her, but you see her demeanor, and are concerned about her mental health.....

I do agree that she seems depressed, and might even sink deeper into a depression.

Is there a pastor or close friend she might be pursuaded to talk with?

I'm sorry I don't have any words of wisdom for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I am still praying for you.

Hi, well the eldest (17) just will not get involved at all. He won't talk about any emotional stuff. I did say to him when they were all off that they should all go out somewhere he just said "she won't go".

The youngest (14) does talk to me, although I do try not to get him involved, as I did too much in the past. However I did ask him not so long ago and he said she was "snappy" and didn't seem to have any feelings about anything.

She does put on a very good front - she has always been very protective of what people think of her. She met the parents of my sons girlfriend the other week and she made a point of saying to me - "they were surprised how happy and bubbly i was" strange thing to say I thought. It was obviously very important to her.

What she would call friends are really just colleagues from work. I doubt very much that she would have talked deeply to them and may resent them trying to talk to her. In any case I only know them very vaguely. She most certainly wouldn't talk to her family - they are 500 miles away anyway, she would listen to her sister, but I'm not her favourite person so I don't even know if she would talk to me! I guess I could call them, but not sure!

I'm trying to think of my options:

- do nothing
- send flowers as you mentioned earlier (might make her smile)
- get my councellor to try and talk to her (although she doesn't know her)
- go and see her colleague at work who she sees as her best friend (I don't know her but I guess I could find her)
- call her sister

Can't think of any others!

Hi, well had a session with councellor today. She thinks definitely depression, although the signs are that it's not at self hurt depth. She thinks it's time I wrote her a letter, and that there's not much I can lose by doing this given the state she's in...

What do you think.

Ok so just in case you DON'T tell me not to write, here's what I'm thinking:

==========================
Yes another letter! But I haven't written for a while so I hope you'll forgive me.
We don't talk much these days and I just wanted to drop you a note.

Something I'm really missing is the communication with you - the times we just sat and talked, I know it's a long time since we could talk really closely, but that doesn't mean I have forgotten what it was like to be your best friend. We used to talk endlessly for hours and hours.

Now that I am seeing a councellor, I really regret not doing as you wanted 3 years ago and going together. I've found the benefits in getting to know myself, the good and the bad, and learning how to do something about it is immense. It really does make me feel that I can walk out of the "fog" and become a much better person.

I have a terrible feeling inside when I think of all the pain you have been through, you are a truly beautiful person and you should not have to have suffered as you did.

I do hope that one day we can make a start on healing the things between us. In the meantime, I'm always about if you need a friend, or even a decent goulash!

=======================

P.S. - yes I'm a good cook and make a great Goulash!!!

Hi, Graeme,

I finally got back around to checking in..........
Let me see if I can shed some light on your letter.

First of all, I think writing a letter now IS a good thing. Of course, I also think it shouldn't be too "heavy." Yup, keep it light and "fun."

Let's have a look at your proposal, and see if it fits the bill:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Yes another letter! But I haven't written for a while so I hope you'll forgive me.
We don't talk much these days and I just wanted to drop you a note.

Something I'm really missing is the communication with you - the times we just sat and talked, I know it's a long time since we could talk really closely, but that doesn't mean I have forgotten what it was like to be your best friend. We used to talk endlessly for hours and hours.

Now that I am seeing a councellor, I really regret not doing as you wanted 3 years ago and going together. I've found the benefits in getting to know myself, the good and the bad, and learning how to do something about it is immense. It really does make me feel that I can walk out of the "fog" and become a much better person.

I have a terrible feeling inside when I think of all the pain you have been through, you are a truly beautiful person and you should not have to have suffered as you did.

I'm always about if you need a friend, or even a decent goulash!
<hr /></blockquote>I only made a few little adjustments, and I think it would be OK. It doesn't put any "pressure" on her, yet tells her you are taking your own responsibility for healing YOU, and becoming a better man, and you are taking on yourself some of the responsibility for some of her unhappiness.

I LIKE IT!!

God Bless,

Hiya, thanks so much for that!

It looks to me like all you did was take out a bit of the last paragraph, is that right? Was that a "pressure" line?

Graeme

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
It looks to me like all you did was take out a bit of the last paragraph, is that right? Was that a "pressure" line?

<hr /></blockquote>Uh, yup, it felt like it to me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Yep, it was pressure. Pressure to "heal" things.

But I think it's good.

Remember, she's not going to react to it. No expectations. None. Zero.

Hi,

Well I also sent it to my councellor, she sent back the following - changes in bold (i hope). Can't say I'm too comfortable with these, but would welcome your opinions...

Yes another letter! But I haven't written for a while so I hope you'll forgive me.
We don't talk much these days and I just wanted to drop you a note.

Something I'm really missing is the communication with you - the times we just sat and talked, I know it's a long time since we could talk really closely together , but that doesn't mean I have forgotten what it was like to be your best friend. i remember so well we used to talk endlessly for hours and hours.

Now that I am seeing a councellor, I deeply regret not doing as you wanted 3 years ago and going together. I've found the benefits in getting to know myself, the good and the bad, and learning how to do something about it is immense. It really does make me feel that I can walk out of the "fog", redirect myself and become a better, and a more understanding person.

I have a terrible feeling inside when I think of all the pain you have been through, you are a truly beautiful person and you should not have to have suffered as you did. I am so sorry W.

I do hope that one day it might be possible to heal things between us, that there might be a chance together.
I'm always about if you need a friend, or even a decent goulash!

Graeme,

GO WITH YOUR GUT. Do what feels right to you. Don't worry about what counselor thinks. You know what your W likes or doesn't like, or will accept or won't.......

But remember what GG said, NO ExPECTATIONS!!! This is most important of all. You've got to go into this with absolutely NO expectations that your W will suddenly OPEN HER EYES and turn completely around and come running back, all forgiven.

This is a process, albeit a strange, twisted and L-O-N-G one! It all takes time.

God Bless,

What you mean I won't be able to move back in 5 minutes after she reads it ???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks again, I know that some of the councellors stuff just shouldn't be in there, even to me I can see that it is a "pressure" letter, and one of the things I read everywhere is not to say sorry.

So I will go with the version we came up with!

The most I expect from it is that she will be surprised that I am getting councelling and it may plant a seed to help her out of her depression.

Graeme

Gaeme, I think I’ve finally figured out how to spell your name. I think a sincere heartfelt apology is good, if it’s not over done.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by greengables:
 Gaeme, I think I’ve finally figured out how to spell your name. I think a sincere heartfelt apology is good, if it’s not over done. <hr /></blockquote>LOL - you get one more try....

Well I sent more or less how we ended up on here, I didn't want to sound as if I was asking for anything! Anyway It's gone now!

gRaeme !!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Okay, gRaeme. What's the phonetic spelling?

Gray...emm <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

How fascinating! I don't see why you need eyerolls, unless it's because I didn't know how to pronounce it. So, it's nighttime where you are. What are you doing?

Hi, yes it's quarter after 11 here...

Not a good night, afraid although I had no expectations, I had hope

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by graeme:
although I had no expectations, I had hope<hr /></blockquote>NEVER lose hope! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Patience. A letter like that is like beans. You have to soak it for a while, changing the water, so you don't get gas, then you have to cook them slowly for a long time, and then you are ready to prepare them.

Or you could just skip all the above and make a bean bag.

Just because you aren't seeing action doesn't mean nothing's happening.

I'm off to do chores.

Hi, well i've been on a couple of times but I just don't know how to reply..

I'm having a real problem keeping my hope going this weekend. I don't honestly feel that I'm getting anywhere at all. I guess I saw the letter as the culmination of the last few months. I'm just seeing nothing at all coming back. I don't want to give up hope but I really am thinking it's hopeless. I don't know if I'm doing right staying away (avoiding her really). I'm waiting for her to make the move and I don't know if thats right or if she will. I guess I'm just really confused again. I know that if she could see and believe what's inside me then we could progress but she can't if we never talk about it. Maybe it's time to make her make the choice..

[ August 30, 2004, 08:56 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]

Ohh, you better be glad the Pond is between us!

She put up with your shennanigans for 3 years and you're ready to force a choice on her after 3 months?

And don't bother trying to tell me it's been 6 months. Doesn't matter.

If you want a divorce, by all means force a decision.

If you want her as your wife, I'd suggest waiting.

Now, if you've made up your mind you don't want her, then you need to tell her.

The funny thing is you really can't force her to make a decision anyway. You can only ask or demand, and if she doesn't then you are stuck with the decison.

Have you ever tried eating half cooked beans? Not a good idea.

[ June 12, 2004, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: greengables ]

I want to say this to her " W we can't carry on like this. I will always believe that we can get through this but not if we don't talk."

Hi,

Our posts crossed....
Time for my kick up the a**!!! lol

I just need to know that what I'm doing is constructive and it really doesn't feel like it. I don't expect miracles, I just want to get us talking so we can start the journey. I know I'm not even at the beginning yet.

Yes I accept the last 3 years have been terrible but it was not purely down to me that we drifted apart to get to that stage. It's not just the last 3 years that needs to be put aside, it's the fixing of the problems that led us there.

Talking is over rated.

I suggest a better way would be to ask her out to the movies. And promise here you won't talk about "us" at all. Period.

Hi Laura,

Well thanks for your post, but I think the problem is that I threw her in the swamp, I don't know even if it is a swamp or if she likes it there. But I desperately want her out.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by greengables:
 Talking is over rated.

I suggest a better way would be to ask her out to the movies. And promise here you won't talk about "us" at all. Period. <hr /></blockquote>Hi, don't think I agree with you. There is nothing worse than not talking about things that are eating away....

So you think I should be calling her??

Wayhey! You guys are great.....

Asked her to the pics, she said no she had seen it.

But....

Coming over tomorrow for that wonderful Goulash I make <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <blockquote>quote:<hr /> <hr /></blockquote>

NO, Graeme, there is something worse than not talking about things. That's talking about things over and over and nothing changes.

There is damage that's done when one or both people are not respectful and considerate in their talking over.

There is the frustration of trying to have a heart to heart with someone who has built up a protective wall. That wall doesn't come down just because you start in about how you feel and what you want.

In fact, the wall might get thicker and higher.

Ofter, talking about things that are eating away at you is a technique used to get what you want. LOL. And it's a legitimate technique if you haven't been an idiot for the past three years. Or a raging lunatic, or a sadistic jerk to name some other types roaming around out there.

So make an awesome goulash, and be entertaining. Act as if this is your first or second date.

Your only goal for the goulash dinner should be that she's open to doing something with you again. That's it. That's your sole goal.

Got it????

lol oh you are a hard taskmaster!!

Yes I understand. I think I would not want to risk deep talking without a councellor anyway. I think she might bring this up because the letter is the first she knew about my councelling, but I will let her mention it first!

I will be the perfect host!

I bet tomorrow is the first time I burn the goulash - or put too much spice in - or the oven will break lol!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by graeme:
 Coming over tomorrow for that wonderful Goulash I make <hr /></blockquote>Graeme,

This is *WONDERFUL* news!!!

Now, just remember - B-A-B-Y S-T-E-P-S!

I just had a thought......GO back and look at the title of your post (yeah, this one). It's called "Need Help to Recovery Marriage"
(I thought ya needed another gentle, swift kick to the backside today)

DUH!!! Do you WANT our help or don't you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

If you DO, then please START TAKING THE ADVICE YOU ARE GIVEN! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Prayers for a great meeting/goulash.

God Bless,

lol thank you

You know I always come and ask first!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Where else could I go for a good kicking!

Well that must have been one mean goulash! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

We spoke for about 4 hours, nothing deep, just what we were both doing, and quite a bit of memory type stuff, like when the kids were born, things we had done years ago etc. She did ask about the councelling but I was in the kitchen at the time so didn't answer & it didn't come up again.

Wants me to do some work on the house..the outside painting... made sure i knew that she was in every night except tues lol
Goodnight kiss...
Quite a few babysteps i think! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

AND - just phoned to tell me she was home safe and chatted for 15 mins....

Ooooh. Sounds like a success. So, do you think she'll say "Yes" to a second date?

Let's see. Lupo, do you think the next weekend is too soon? It feels soon.

Okay, weekend after next. Supper and the movies.

Stick to safe subjects unless she brings them up.

This is so exciting!!!

(NOTE TO SELF: It is not healthy to live vicariously.

REPLY TO SELF: Oh, please, better live vicariously than not live at all.)

EXCELLENT NEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We're all doing the Happy Dance for ya, Graeme.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by greengables:
 Ooooh. Sounds like a success. So, do you think she'll say "Yes" to a second date?

Let's see. Lupo, do you think the next weekend is too soon? weekend after next. Supper and the movies.<hr /></blockquote>YEAH!!!! Week-end after next.........
But don't ask TOO SOON, either!! That'll feel like pressure. Let her stew a few days, or week. THEN call and invite her. Are there any "event dates" coming up? Birthdays? Holidays? It would be better to arrange around some "event" rather than another just a date so soon, I think.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Stick to safe subjects unless she brings them up.

This is so exciting!!!<hr /></blockquote>It sure is!!!!!!!!!

And I agree, stick to safe subjects. Keep it light. The advice I've been given lately is:
"You've got to become friends again, first, before you can be anything else after that."

<blockquote>quote:<hr />(NOTE TO SELF: It is not healthy to live vicariously.

REPLY TO SELF: Oh, please, better live vicariously than not live at all.) <hr /></blockquote>AMEN to that!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

God Bless,

Graeme,

I don't hang around this board, but for some reason....

I was just reading your first post. What you did is just exactly like what my husband is doing.

I wonder if one day he will be here posting like you, and I will be in your wifes shoes.

Anyway, you are getting good advice from what I read, and I hope you take it.

If I could wake up tomorrow and have my prayers come true, it would be for my husband to show up and say, " I am sorry . I have been a complete fool, and I have hurt the only person who loves me. I have ended all contact with the other women, and I know I don't deserve you, and I know there is no reason for you to trust me or believe me, but I will give you as much time as you need, just for a chance to prove it. I will pray with you and work and pay the bills, and listen, and be the best husband and friend I can be if you will let me. "

Best wishes,
Shul

Shul,

Well I really hope that he does it in time, I didn't.

All the best

Graeme

The set back....

Well I guess I need to update you all.. Remember I said she had asked me to do the outside painting? Well she said anytime through the week was good but she didn't want any mess at the weekends. So on wednesday, when I was giving my son a driving lesson, we went and got all the paint etc, got back and I spend the afternoon cleaning up the back of the house ready for painting. When she came back from work I was round the side of the house.. She looked at me and said "what are you doing here" (she had just passed my car so knew I was there..) I said, "that's nice..I'm doing the house like you asked..".

She went into the house, I heard her putting her stuff away, making HERSELF a cup of tea, then went through to the living room. I thought she might come and look at the house but no. So I just finished up and tidyed up. I just went into the house then, picked up my things and called through goodbye and went..

Dejected or what!!! I guess confused is more like the word

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I thought she might come and look at the house but no. So I just finished up and tidyed up. I just went into the house then, picked up my things and called through goodbye and went..
<hr /></blockquote>BABY STEPS, Greaeme, AND NO EXPECTATIONS!

You're doing fine. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

This is a looooooooong, drawn out process. Always remember - YOUR MARRIAGE DIDN'T GET "BROKEN" IN A FEW DAYS OR MONTHS, AND IT WON'T BE FIXED IN A FEW DAYS OR MONTHS.
Add in the PAIN of betrayal and adultery, and she's still quite hurt.

Give her time. I bet she'll come round.

Thanks, my councellor said that too. Said that she must be full of anger and hurt and probably frightened too. It's just sooooo confusing this stuff! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by graeme:
 Thanks, my councellor said that too. Said that she must be full of anger and hurt and probably frightened too. It's just sooooo confusing this stuff! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>graeme,

Listen, it's not all that confusing at all!

Yes, she's hurt, angry et. al.

I wrote up a post one time that was a sort of analogy of a freed animal..........who returns from the "wilderness" and sees his/her former cage. The animal is suspicious, cautious, anxious, nervous.........approaches the cage very carefully and with much trepidationtaking two steps forward, maybe one step back each time.......can you picture it?

The cage represents good things (lots of good stuff trapped inside, food, security, love), BUT the cage ALSO represents lots of bad stuff. Locks, feelings of being trapped with no escape, and loss of freedom to be yourself - do your own thing..........
Are you getting the picture? OK. Now, at this stage in your rebuilding your relationship (mine, too, w/xH - BTW!), they are looking/glancing ever so cautiously at the "cage" that represents the former marriage, and wondering if they could ever go back there again..........if there could ever be a relationship within the confines of that "cage" again..........if they will get beaten down again.

As you can see, kind of secure, but kind of scary and stifling and frightening at the same time. The "trapper" can't force the animal to make a decision to walk into the cage. All he can do is wait patiently for the animal to keep glancing and moving ever closer and closer to the cage and see for itself that the "cage" will not harm him.

Maybe it's a terrible analogy, but in some ways I think it represents the mindset of the partner who is reluctant to want back into the relationship.

There is NOTHING you can do at this point to speed the process up.......it has to move along at its own pace, and all you can do is be patient, sit quietly, take what little progress you get, and DON'T GET ANXIOUS AND TRY TO PUSH.

Still praying.
God Bless,

Well it's a very easy to understand analogy - just hope it does reflect the mindset!!!

Another babystep tonight... eldest asked if I wanted to go out for a meal for fathers day. He also asked W, so all 4 of us ended up going out as a family. Had a lovely meal and a fun time, went back after, had a little chat - she was talkative again tonight, and I left before I outstayed my welcome again..

Hi all, a little update. When we were out on fathers day, W dropped about 6 hints that she had no money left till the end of the month. Now as she hadn't asked me for money, I never said anything at the time. But when I got home I transferred some to her bank. Now I really wasn't looking for anything back from her, but wouldn't you think a little thank you wouldn't have been unreasonable???

My councellor said that she thought we need to do something else, so she's written to W saying she would like to see her this thursday evening. I didn't see the letter. W should have got it on saturday. I have no hope at all that she will go.

Today would have been our 18th anniversary. I left a single red rose for her.

Oh well I was right. Councellor had made an appointment for her last night. She didn't turn up and didn't say a word to anyone about not going.

The total lack of response is really getting to me now, I am being patient, doing all the right things and have seen enough steps forwards to know there is still something there. But I think she is just being downright rude now.

Okay, G, then back off, waaaay off.

Your relationship seems to be a push me pull me one. Like the Tango, the Argentine Tango.

Back off for a while. Pull a little away and see if that invisible thread will pull her after you.

Not all fish are caught by throwing the lure in the water and leaving it there. Some are caught because the fly lands quietly and is drawn away from the fish. Tempting... Fascinating. The fly lands again and again moves away.

Finally the fish has to swallow that fly!

Hi GG,

Yet again I know you are right!
I have had enough of doing things without even an acknowledgement, so there will be no more until I'm asked properly.

How are things with you?

I feel like a broken record:
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Live your life, graeme. Improve YOU. Work on your self-worth.

Leave her to her own devices. She'll have to figure it all out for herself at this point. There's nothing you can do to help this process along.

You'll be OK.

God Bless,

G, thanks for asking. I'm doing fine. thanks for asking. We're heading into Independence Day, my favorite holiday.

Speaking of holiday, what are you doing for yours? Given your marital situation, I think we better start working on a plan if you don't have one.

Hi!

Graeme, I can be your w except that my h havent come around or ask for forgiveness. But I can tell you that not only the pain of betrayal is horrible, it is also that I can't understand how my h have abondoned the kids as well as me.

I think that maybe your w is scared. She probably is thinking what to do, because even tho she problaby do not have anyone else and still loved you, she has spent and endure all this time alone, and she has realize that she can survive without you or your help raising the kids, but she do not know if she can survive letting you in again in her life with the posiblility that these will happen again.

I think that you should keep trying to show her how wrong you was, and reasured her that it wont happend again. Wrigth now she can not trust you completedly even if she wanted to, and she has good reasons for that.

But you have the rigth to figth for what you want only this time take into consideration her needs and emotions, do not force her but let her now that you still love her and wanted her and that you really have learn what you almost lost. If you keep showing her that you are true and are not keeping more secrets or telling her lies maybe she will start to remember how wonderful can it be.

Then again, that's only may opinion, follow by my circunstances, I don't now her or you, but do now if your time to not give up and tried.

Good luck.

I th

GG - glad you're ok.

Well I'm not sure if I said earlier but I have been out of a job for the last 2 months. Of course none of this helps much with moving myself on, but I've been looking hard and I'm hopeful I will have a new job this month. So anyway that kind of puts the holidays out for the moment, although the kids break up for summer in 2 weeks so I hope to take them away for a while.

Majoli - thanks for that, yes I'm sure i'm in a "push-pull" relationship as GG said. When I back off, she comes in, but then moves out right after again. I want to fight for her but the trouble is that we do not even speak to each other just now. When I was calling her, I was accused of hassling her so I had to stop.

Majoli - I just read your post again. Although I don't know your story, I really wanted to tell you that as the "bad guy", there really is a "fog". I don't know why these things happen, the mind is a really funny thing! I think in my case I just took the marriage too much for granted, and didn't really value it, or believe that it could be changed.

Now that I am out of the fog (and it took my W saying "NO" and staying away from me to do it) I just cannot believe that I would do those things, the time that we have been separated really does seem so very distant to me.

So I just hope that (if you want it of course) your H does exactly the same...

Hi all, on a high tonight. A giant step made I think.

I had the kids out karting today, I invited W and said I would buy her dinner. She said she was too busy but would come over later. The kids went back about 4pm, and W came over just after 6. (I'm in the UK remember!)

After a bit of chit chat about kids etc, she laid into me about the councellors letter, said she was fuming that we had the cheek to think she needed councelling and who the hell was the councellor to make an appointment to play with her mind and try to control her. Said she was happy on her own and had been through enough etc...

Well I was stunned and said we hadn't meant it at all like that, that she had really taken me aback. I said that councelling is just talking not screwing with minds. I said that we can't stay how we are, we have to go one way or the other and that neither way was going to be easy. I said I was fed up with being ignored by her. I told her all about my sessions, how I had been through the last 3 years, then back to what had caused us to drift apart, then to why did I marry her in the first place. I said that was the easiest question ever, that I had realised what an awful mistake I had made and how I realise that I married her because she was the most beautiful person I had ever known and my best friend and I loved her deeply and wanted to fix things, but that I knew it would take time. I said I didn't want to go back 3 years, I wanted to go back to how it was at the start.

And you know what? Gradually I saw it go in. I said that I knew that there was a huge attachment between us and that I knew she felt it too. I saw her believe me.

We went out to dinner, had a really great time, came back to the house for coffee and talked for a while longer, lots of hugs and kisses then she went home. She phoned when she got in.

I'm going round on tuesday to sort out her car insurance and some other stuff and to have dinner..

WAY HEY!!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

WOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Good job, graeme!!

Total honesty, openness and LOTS of patience will turn this thing. Plan A her when you can. COntinue to meet any EN's she will allow.

Keep doing what you're doing, keep LOVING her and letting her know you know you screwed up. THAT will get through.

We are pretty much in the same place, so I'm speaking from what is working in our sitch, too.

Remember: V-E-R-R-R-Y small BABY STEPS.
AND NO EXPECTATIONS!

God Bless,

Hi Lupo, thanks for that. It's hard to keep the expectations down, when you get a "break through" although I know there will be many "2 steps forward 1 back" to come...

Been round tonight, had a nice chat and some dinner, She was definitely holding herself back a bit more, but the goodnight kisses seem to be allowed (and reciprocated) now....

Graeme

I'm happy for you. I think that if you don't pushed, she will start to see that you are honest and that you love her. One thing I think help is you having quality time with your kids and with her alone. These way you are showing her that you really care for your kids but that this is not the reason for you to wanted to come back

She needs to fill that is also her that you missed not only the family live. As for her meeting the terapist maybe you can tell her that he wants to talk to her for you. Let me try to explain, you can tell her that one of the reasons the terapist ask to see her is not to play with her mind but to try to figure out how he can help you better. It is common to terapist to want to talk to the familie's patiente to get a better picture of the cituation. Don't know if you understand me.

Ps- I read your replyes, thank you, but for the past 18 months i have being saying no and meaning it. This time I really though he was regret but aparently no. I don't understand why he can't tell me what he wants. At this point if he filed for divorce i will signing on the minute.

Hope your cituation gets better evryday.

Graeme

Something just "popped" into my brain when I read Majoli's response to you.

It is very important - in addition to keeping your distance right now - that you DO show her you can meet her most important EN'S. At leasst the ones she will allow you to fill.

You need to begin filling her LB$ again. In order to have her "fall in love" with you again (which I think is essential to forgiving the A), she needs to begin to have "happy feelings" for you. This happens when her LB$ (Love Bank) is being filled. Also, while this is going on, YOU are not getting YOUR LB$ addressed at all. Expect this.

See, the delicate balance here is that she wants to HATE you, stay angry, unforgiving of you, for what you have done. This is one reason this is going to be a loooong journey. It will prolly take about THREE TIMES the length of time it took to originally have her "fall" for you.

Remember, slow and steady wins the race, my friend. Be the best dad to the kids she's ever seen. SHOW HER THAT NO ONE ELSE IS QUALIFIED TO BE YOUR KIDS' DAD. SHOW HER THAT NO ONE ELSE COULD "FILL" HER LB$ BETTER THAN YOU.

SHOW HER THAT YOU ARE TRULY REMORSEFUL FOR PREVIOUS EVENTS. Read I said Show Her. Don't try to TELL her these things.

Be patient. Stay the course. Expect small set-backs, she's scared, too! You're doing fine.

God Bless,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lupolady:
 Graeme

See, the delicate balance here is that she wants to HATE you, stay angry, unforgiving of you, for what you have done. This is one reason this is going to be a loooong journey. It will prolly take about THREE TIMES the length of time it took to originally have her "fall" for you.

Be patient. Stay the course. Expect small set-backs, she's scared, too! You're doing fine.

God Bless, <hr /></blockquote>Lupo,

Thanks for that, yes I do understand!

..BTW it took her 1 day the first time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Graeme

Please read and re read what lupolady said, she looks smart <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . She put it in better words than mine. And remember not to push her just let her know and try to understand her needs even if you considered them insignificants. I love when my husband put real interest in what is happening in the kids live.

Ah well, a huge jump backwards tonight. I think it all over now. I'm posting because it helps me to write about it and because you have all been so good to me over the past few months that I want you to know whats happening.

She came over for dinner tonight. She had another dig at me about something silly (just after giving me her car insurance so i could arrange it for her!). Anyway to cut a long story short, I said I'd had enough of her treating me like sh*t, by ignoring me, being nasty etc etc and I thought it was time she made her mind up to either try or to get it all over with. She said she didn't love me just wanted to be friends. I said that how could we be friends when I wanted to fix things and she was saying she didn't, and that she ignored me and that she hadn't contacted me once in the last 3 months. Well I could see her thinking about that. I said I knew that inside she loved me but that she had a lot of hurt and anger as well. She said no I just don't feel the same, but I have never been nasty like that to anyone before.

None of this was a row by the way, it was a conversation. She said she just wanted to be on her own. I said well if that's what you want then you are better just telling me and getting it over with. She said you mean divorce, I hadn't thought about that! I said we could go to couple therapy, she said I don't need councelling. I said I know but it may help US. No chance.

Her sister is down next weekend. I said that after that we need to get on with it, a divorce only takes 2 weeks.

Anyway she left early, made a point of giving me a kiss on the way out and telling me she would ring on tuesday - ha! we will see.

I know you'll kick my bum and tell me patience etc etc, but I just can't carry on getting nothing back from her. I am not a bad person and there is no point in me having hope where there is none..

Graeme:

I won't kicke your bum, Believe me I know your frustration to well. But, if you really, honestly want her back, could you just try not to mention divorce for at least 3 months? Are you in a hurry?

I know how you feel, but she told you she didn't has think of divorce, that should make you happy. I don't think she would want to stay in this cituation for ever and if she is not or was thinking in divorce make me think that she is still evaluating the cituation.

I'm a BS not your wife, but a BS so I think I know was she is feeling too, don't pushed, even if you still get a divorce at the end, let her to be the one who said it and iniciated on her own.

Do not pusher one way or the other. I do not know if I make sence, maybe other can put in better ways what I'm trying to say.

Give her space, and when you talk to her, if she calles be NICE. Try your best and don't give up.

I know is eassier to said that done it, but TRY.

One of the things I regret, and regret not to had found this board earlier is that I used to resolved evrything by mention divorce, at the end I was the one who put the idea in his head, and that wasn't good. I understand sometimes when I get to frustrated I pression him to make a decision, but until today he haven't file and that said a lot.

Hi, of course I know you are right. It just seems so hard and pointless sometimes carrying on.

I forgot to say she also told me to stop writing to her.

[ July 12, 2004, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: graeme ]

Hi everyone, well I'm still about, and struggling on through this...

Since my last update, I've felt pretty good - I think just knowing that I needed to get on with my own life put a different complexion on things.

Last weekend, we all went out as a family, took the kids karting, had a meal and then went to the cinema (spiderman 2 - don't bother!!!). I had said to her that we needed to talk about sorting out the money and future arrangements as we couldn't even think about divorce till then.

She came around last night, we talked a lot - not as good as before, but not bad, went out for a meal then went back to mine to talk over money. I said that basically if we carry on as we are, then when we eventually get divorced I would be left with a lot of debt, and as she had said there was no chance then I didn't feel that was fair on me. I also said that I was in a real quandry because I wanted to look after them all, but it didn't look like I could afford to keep on doing that.

I showed her how I have been giving her more than double what the court would have.

Anyway we went through the figures and came to the only conclusion that we would have to sell the house. She's very reluctant to do anything just now and didn't want to talk about divorce. I think she did see that divorce is going to be painful 0 financially at least.

We also spoke about us, I said that I had lost all hope and just couldn't carry on any more being treated the way she was treating me. She said she would stop and would invite me over for dinner next weekend.

She said she wants to be friends, but does not want to get "back into" what we had before. She really does seem to have accepted and is happy with life on her own, and any feelings of love must be well suppressed if they're still there.

So I don't know any more - does she really want to be on her own? I think maybe I need help in building up the LB!

Hi all, well christmas is a time for reflection, so I've been reading my old story on here.

Nothing changed very much until the other week. I found her christmas card to her "friend" which I suspected but never knew till now. Seems this has been going on since the start of the year. I didn't ask too much but it's certainly been an EA and probably a lot more. She said she realised it was stupid (he's married) and says she has now ended it.

It's not bothering me too much because I can't blame her at all and I guess it explains a lot of things for me.

Oddly enough although the card was full of undying love stuff, ending it didn't seem to have a lot of impact on her. (yes I do believe she has). Seems the biggest part of it was she was swept away by someone wanting her.

We had a lot of heart to heart conversations over christmas, she's very negative about absolutely everything to do with me, just can't see any good in me or our marriage at all.. but she kept asking me over, in fact we spent the best part of 3 days near each other.

Hugging now seems to be allowed again but not kissing. Her mum is down now for 2 weeks so I have to stay out of the way (seems her mum doesn't like me much because she has been telling her how upset she is, strange after all this time to start talking to her now???).

I don't know if it's just false hope again but I do feel positive that there is more hope now that "he" is out of the way.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lupolady:

Graeme,

It almost sounds like your W has met someone else, and is now ready to "move on" with her life....I don't want to alarm you, but just want you to consider that option. If that's so, you need to think about how you will handle that news.
<hr /></blockquote>I am astounded, just read the start of my thread to find that lupolady was spot on right from the start.

Hi, graeme and everyone else:

I haven't been around much. First there were the three pesky hurricanes to deal with (still involved in that mess). Then my computer crashed.

Oh, yeah, and in the middle of all that? My X(w)H and I have RECONCILED and are now planning for our remarriage next spring!

Hallelujah!!

Graeme, tell me, how have things been going lately? It seems your W has now learned a hard lesson: Namely - it's easy to fall for someone when they start to meet your EN's. Second, the old "stand by, former (husband/wife) doesn't look so bad once you actually start looking around at the prospects out there......"

I don't read or post much anymore (too much to do working on a R!), but today, H is sick, sleeping soundly, so I jumped on line, and saw your recent post, so I just had to "catch up."

Take care, and God Bless,

Isn't this a horrible time of year without the ones you want to be with?

I know this is probably the wrong time to be making decisions but I'm really thinking that it can't go on like this. I can't (don't want to) move on and it seems that my wife is in the same position. It's not doing either of us much good.

I desperately want to fix things but I'm trying to be realistic here - I'm not getting many positive signs - certainly no affectionate ones & it just feels like a never ending spiral downwards. I feel it's the time for something to change so I'm really thinking that I should be starting to force the D issue. I guess I'm just scared to because it's not what I want, but it might be what we both need.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Lupolady

Is that fate or what - we post at exactly the same time!

Hey I'm so glad to hear your news! Absolutely excellent!!

I'll copy here a mail I sent to my councellor last week - I had stopped going but as she was the one that knew the full story I wanted her advice.

===================

Hi xxxxxx,

Hope you had a great christmas and are looking forward to the new year?

Hope you don't mind me writing - I have a few things I need to understand & you are the only one that knows the full "blow by blow" story.

Maybe I ought to arrange an appointment? In anycase I'll tell you the story and take your advice on it...

You know I have been fitting the kitchen for W, well things were going very well - it was noticable after a while that she became more comfortable with me, was always around asking if she could help, came along when I went out for stuff and often went out for dinner afterwards.

She asked me if I would go christmas shopping with her a couple of weeks ago. I hummed and hawed but eventually said yes, so I picked her up & we went into coventry. She made a huge point of paying for everything - maybe not deliberately but it stuck out a mile. Then we went for a chinese meal afterwards. Again she insisted on paying.

When I dropped her off at the house I said "ok I'll see you at christmas then". She said "why not before - surely you'll come over for tea next week sometime". I said "well not much need, the kitchen is done now".

Anyway she rang the following monday, to ask me to pick up a parcel to post. Said she wanted me to come for tea either that night or the next. I stood my ground and said "why? there's no us so what's the point?". She insisted & said she'd cook my favourite so I said ok.

Went over & had a nice tea, said I would get the christmas food and would be over on the day.

I was to pick her mum up from the airport after christmas (have always got on ok) but she said her mum had said it was time she moved on and she didn't want me to.

That was the monday. On wednesday the boys rang to say the shower was broken so I popped over in the morning (she was at work). While I was there I found her christmas card to the "other man". Seems I was right all along. There was one of these poem things you get with the message that she'd written "love you forever, your angel Jackie xxx". So I left it out so she would see I had seen it, with a very rude note saying "Fxxx you and christmas". It was the same name that I had found on the computer back in april, so he has been around since before she told me it was over.

She rang when she saw it. Obviously had a go about me raking about. I let her think that I knew a lot more than I actually did. It seems he's married, she doesn't see him that often but I gather are constantly on the phone. She said she just liked someone liking her, and knew that she could never have him. She was very worried I would drop him in it with his wife, although I insisted I had no interest in him. It was obvious there has been a physical relationship but mostly an emotional one I think. I told her she was a hypocrite and a liar etc. Also told her she was an idiot getting involved with someone elses wife & when she found out (said if I had found out then she surely would) then Jackie should be able to imagine how it would feel. I said I had no interest at all in seeing her while she had someone else.

I called about something the next day. She said she realised how stupid she had been and didn't want to hurt anyone else so was going to end it. I said well ok call me after it's over then we'll talk.

She called later, said she had said seen him and said that was it, all he said was "fair dos". I believe her, but am surprised that on the surface she does not seen to be grieving at all. An "angel" keyring and "angel" crystal hanging in the car have appeared and I'm guessing that was her present from him. She didn't show any guilt at all to me and certainly in her mind finished it because it was wrong, not because of me.

I said well we better talk before christmas & get this out of the way, so she told me to come over. I did and did my usual "love you, been so stupid etc" she was absolutely not affected by my blubbering & was very negative about all aspects of our life together, she kept talking about me running her down and controlling her & that she wasn't going into that again. She keeps saying why can't we just be friends.

Every little thing is a negative to her just now. Anyway we had a good chat, at one point holding hands on the couch & I did feel we had connected a lot more than for ages.

I asked what she was doing christmas eve she said nothing so I asked if she wanted to do something as a family. Yes she did.

So we went to the snowdome, had a good time, then back to the house for a takeaway. We got chating again,

We got on to her mum - and it seems that she had told her mum how she was feeling just recently & that's what put the mum off me. I don't know what was said but it was enough to worry the mum. I asked why now after almost 4 years but didn't get much answer except money etc. She's obviously very very unhappy and has the whole world on her shoulders. I asked who she talks to & her sister seems to be the only one, although also her mother recently and her best friend a little bit. She feels no-one cares about her feelings. I tried to say she needs to talk but that caused an eruption about "councellors writing to her"!!

Anyway it seems that hugs are allowed again although I got "why do you have to spoil it" when I tried to kiss her on my way home.

Christmas day went well, I was over there all day & a lot of the time it was just me and her in the living room. When I was out in the garage with my son, she would come out to join in with us. No serious chat just "family stuff".

I said I'd be over the next day with a part that was missing from my sons present. She said well you can make curry from the rest of the turkey. So boxing day was there all day again.

She was worried about not having money to feed her mum so I gave her some.

When I went I said that I'd stay out of the way while her mum was down, she said yes good idea, then had a moan about her mum being a skinflint (which she is) said that no-one helps her except for me...

She's shown no interest at all in what I'm thinking or what I'm doing over new year, has never asked a thing.

She called yesterday morning to thank me for giving her money and on the way to pick up her mum in the afternoon (with my son driving) she phoned to say they were lost & could I direct them..) They she called again when mum was in the car - they were lost again, must say I was surprised she called when her mum was there though.

I obviously don't want to think about this other man, but do actually feel it's a big step forwards IF he is out of the way now. Seems to me that he came along at just the right time for her and showed her a lot more attention than me.

I'm not upset about any of it, I do know the key for me is to continue to get myself sorted out with gym work etc.

What do you think, or should I come in?

So, graeme,

Wanna know what *I* would do in your sitch???

Understand now that my perspective is totally different, having H here with me now.......

It's easy for me to make this suggestion, I understand that. Could I follow it a year or two ago? Don't know, but now, looking back, knowing what I know, and having things worked out the way they are.........

I would say it's time to play HARD BALL. Yup. I would definitely talk to OM. I would let him know you intend to blow the whistle on his A with YOUR W, unless he breaks it off totally and cleanly IMMEDIATELY, you will go to his W. It's time to "out" this thing. Then, if he cries to your W that you did so, I would tell his W, and then tell your W that you are ready to tell her MUM, too!!! No sense you looking like the only bad guy here.

THEN, I would tell W that if she isn't set on a reconciliation with you, you are going to have to cut off ties with her (and then go dark, totally black, aka Plan B).

Graeme, here's what you are not realizing. YOU ARE IN THE DRIVER'S SEAT NOW.

Now that you know what is driving your W's actions, having OM in her life (feeling like she has "someone" she can replace you with), she's been giving you a ration of Sh*t. Well, now, since SHE's having a nasty little A of her own, SHE's the one who is not in a position to "deal" and must abide by YOUR conditions.

Graeme, listen. There's no sense trying to reconcile or get through to her, or have her see you as repentant or trying to be nice to her as long as there's someone else in the picture. It doesn't work. The loyalty is divided.

But you can force her hand. Yes, she might run to him. But the fact that he's M'd, and (apparently) his W is unaware of his A works in your favor. It puts him in the position of defending himself and having to deal with the dirty details of revealing if you bring this out in the open. That's ALWAYS a wild card. Harely says REVEAL to EVERYONE every chance you get!! This is your chance.

Get on the offensive, my friend. There's only 2 ways this can turn out. Obviously, you're no closer to the one solution by doing what you have been doing. Now that you have more "knowledge," it gives you an advantage for doing what needs to be done to force your W off the fence and out into either direction. Either of which is better than what you have now, don't you think?

Take care and God Bless,

Lupolady - wow!

Hey it's amazing how some thoughts on a board like this can lift your spirits so much. I had been thinking along those lines myself, and yes allowing myself a bit of hope again knowing that things have changed. I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

She's already told me that she's broken it off, but as you say I know how easy it would be to continue contact, I thought I would give her another week (because I won't see her on her own much till MUM goes away) then bring it up again and force through the ABSOLUTELY no contact point. It also gives her a couple of weeks since it happened to think it through. Although I know his name, I actually don't know any more. No doubt I could find out but I must say I'd rather stay well away from him. What amazed me was the lack of reaction or grief from her having supposedly finished it.

As far as the backing off goes, so many times over the last few months, I've proved that if I back away, she comes and gets me, not that she notices what's happening of course. I never get closer because when I give in (as I do every time!) she just backs away again. I know it's right to force the issue and yes I think I can do that although I have to think really carefully about how to do it (yes please more advice!!).

My one worry is that she just goes completely into herself. I think she is very close to a breakdown right now. It's so obvious that she's in "victim" mode that I need to be really careful to break her out of that and not send her deeper into it.

[ January 01, 2005, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: graeme ]

Hi I am new here. I've posted once here and once in GQII. I haven't really gotten any responses. Is anyone here willing to help? D/D-Lonely Christmas
GQII-WH moved on, What next for me?

Ok so the plan at the moment is this ...

I'm going to ask her to meet me in a neutral space (a bar or something). I'm going to ask if there has been any contact with the OM. Whatever she says I'm going to ask for her cell phone. I will take his number and call him there and then. I'll tell him to disappear or he'll be explaining it to his W. I'll use my phone & if he then rings her I'll give him the biggest fright of his life.

Then I am going to tell my W that it's time we both sorted out our lives, that she needs to be able to move on and be happy, and that I too need to stop hoping for a reconciliation. Being friends won't work we're either married or we're not. I will tell her that my one dream has been that we start on the recovery process to being a happy couple again, however long that takes, but that if she can't commit to that then I will have to file the papers. I'm not going to spend yet another year hoping in vain.

I know it's really critical I get the right words together as I see this as my last chance. I'm not good with words so I'm going to spend time writing out what I want to say and learning it.

Must say I'm terrified that I get the answer I don't want & have to carry it through, but I think in the long term we both have to get out of this nightmare.

Any help or thoughts would be very welcome (even if you think I should have given up a long time ago! I need the truth not encouragement)

[ January 03, 2005, 08:07 AM: Message edited by: graeme ]

(duplicate post)

[ January 03, 2005, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: graeme ]

Hi,i have been following your post for sometime now,still not sure if i should reply cause im pretty new myself.

IMO,i would get the om phone number another way besides asking your wife for it.

I would also build up as much love units as possible before going into plan B.Even if she doesnt respond well to you trying to fill her EN to fill up her love bank,at least she will remember how hard you tried to make her happy when you do go to plan B.

The other man is married so IMO weather you expose there affair or not,the relationship will never really go anywere,and you doing plan b,she may relize that the other man isnt worth pursuing anymore and she may relize how much shes misses you and all you do for her.Hope i kinda made sense. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Maybe im wrong here,but IMO exposing her affair to the om wife isnt a good idea because you were the one who caused your marriage to be were it is today,you exposing A may cause your wife to lose even more trust and see you as more controlling.I would let her end it in her own due time.

Like i said om is married,That A isnt going to go any farther or he would have left his marriage already.I just dont have a good feeling about you telling OM wife about the Affair only because of the way everything turned out in your marriage.I would feel different if your situation were different, like if W had been the one who left you and lived with another man.

I would try to fill her love bank for a certain amount of time,Then go to plan B if you see no results to plan A.

But I would not bring up OM,she already said she didnt want to make marriage work,so you bringing up him to her will probly make her feel mad ,lost of trust,being controlled, this can be what she may think and feel and may even say to you, "you have alot of nerve after what you put me through,and you have no right to interfer".
That is JMO in how she may think or feel,B/C i probly would if my H did me wrong.
I really hope your wife oneday forgives you and wants to work on you marriage.

I hope I really made sense,sometimes i confuses myself <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> sorry hit wrong key

[ January 03, 2005, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: Amanda,P,33 ]

Hi Amanda,
Firstly just let me thank you for your thoughts. I value others opinions on this very much. I don't think it makes any difference how long you have been on this board, all of us have experience of life.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />IMO,i would get the om phone number another way besides asking your wife for it.<hr /></blockquote>I know his name is on the computer in the house (and it's not a common name) so I can easily get his details "undercover" so to speak. Are you saying this because you think I should not let my W know that I have contacted him? I do feel it's critical that I stop this dead in the water.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I would also build up as much love units as possible before going into plan B.Even if she doesnt respond well to you trying to fill her EN to fill up her love bank,at least she will remember how hard you tried to make her happy when you do go to plan B.<hr /></blockquote>I've been trying that for the best part of 2004, we did have a few very pleasant days together at Christmas. I do realise that the OM has been around all that time, and has provided a lot of her needs. I do agree that it may be different with him out of the picture. One of my concerns was whether or not I should "wait and see".

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The other man is married so IMO weather you expose there affair or not,the relationship will never really go anywere,and you doing plan b,she may relize that the other man isnt worth pursuing anymore and she may relize how much shes misses you and all you do for her.Hope i kinda made sense. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Maybe im wrong here,but IMO exposing her affair to the om wife isnt a good idea because you were the one who caused your marriage to be were it is today,you exposing A may cause your wife to lose even more trust and see you as more controlling.I would let her end it in her own due time.<hr /></blockquote>I have absolutely no intentions of telling his W. I have no wish at all to cause his W to enter this nightmare! - And of course the last thing I want is for her to throw him out and make him a free man!

What's your gut feeling about my story - is there hope?

Thanks again

[ January 03, 2005, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: graeme ]

graeme,HI again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[QUOTE]I know his name is on the computer in the house (and it's not a common name) so I can easily get his details "undercover" so to speak. Are you saying this because you think I should not let my W know that I have contacted him? I do feel it's critical that I stop this dead in the water.

graeme,I understand you want this to stop dead in the water.But IMO I just feel that you contacting OM will really piss your wife off to were she may resent you for it b/c of how you have caused her pain and everything else from the past.She may feel it is none of your business b/c she told you she just wanted to be friends.

All this may do is push her farther away,and she may feel that you are causing the relationship with this om to end sooner then she may want,which then she will resent you and push her away even more.

I feel that if the relationship is still going on with the OM,you should stay out of it, as hard as it may be.Let her find out for herself that the relationship is something that will not go any farther than the way it is now.That way she cannot blame you for the way the A turns out.

I feel this way only b/c you were the one who ended the marriage to begin with,and i dont mean that to sound mean.I just mean you shouldnt exspect her to turn her life around the way that you want it to be,and exspect her to end an A b/c you want this marriage to work out.She waited for you for 3 yrs.She may not be ready to end the affair or work on the M.She has a right to feel that way.

[QUOTE] I've been trying that for the best part of 2004, we did have a few very pleasant days together at Christmas. I do realise that the OM has been around all that time, and has provided a lot of her needs. I do agree that it may be different with him out of the picture. One of my concerns was whether or not I should "wait and see".

graeme, Your were trying to fill up her love bank and trying to fill her EN while she was with the OM.SO then nothing you did worked.Now he may be out of the picture I would try it all over again.Fill up her love bank <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

If you find out he is still in the picture I would go on to plan B.As i Stated before if you do plan B,she will relize that the OM is never going to fully commit to her and she will remember how hard you tried to fill her needs,she will probly miss you and all that you do for her.

IMO,during her A with OM she seemed to keep you close,and when you wouldn't
call or go over to her house she seemed to want you to come in and talk or whatever,So to me she dont want to let you go.But at the same time didnt know how the relationship with OM was going to turn out.

I would try plan A again,see how she response to it.If it not the results you want,go to plan B.

If the affair is over with OM,give her time to withdraw,Then go to plan A.

I wish i could tell you how this would all turn out.

Just be patient alittle while longer <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

ps,How do you make lines to separeate the quotes and paragrahs <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />graeme,I understand you want this to stop dead in the water.But IMO I just feel that you contacting OM will really piss your wife off to were she may resent you for it b/c of how you have caused her pain and everything else from the past.She may feel it is none of your business b/c she told you she just wanted to be friends.

All this may do is push her farther away,and she may feel that you are causing the relationship with this om to end sooner then she may want,which then she will resent you and push her away even more.

I feel that if the relationship is still going on with the OM,you should stay out of it, as hard as it may be.Let her find out for herself that the relationship is something that will not go any farther than the way it is now.That way she cannot blame you for the way the A turns out.
<hr /></blockquote>This is where I am confused. Most of the other advice I have had says I need to get it out and stopped right away. We are still married and when I asked before if there was anyone she said no. So at the very least she has lied to me.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />graeme, Your were trying to fill up her love bank and trying to fill her EN while she was with the OM.SO then nothing you did worked.Now he may be out of the picture I would try it all over again.Fill up her love bank <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
<hr /></blockquote>I understand you perfectly, and half of me thinks the same way, but again, a lot of the advice I get says strike while the iron is hot... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />If you find out he is still in the picture I would go on to plan B.As i Stated before if you do plan B,she will relize that the OM is never going to fully commit to her and she will remember how hard you tried to fill her needs,she will probly miss you and all that you do for her. IMO,during her A with OM she seemed to keep you close,and when you wouldn't
call or go over to her house she seemed to want you to come in and talk or whatever,So to me she dont want to let you go.But at the same time didnt know how the relationship with OM was going to turn out.<hr /></blockquote>Thanks - that's exactly how I see it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Just be patient alittle while longer <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>This is the really hard one. Of course I know the answer is to work on myself, but easier said than done!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />ps,How do you make lines to separeate the quotes and paragrahs <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Now to the important stuff!
When you "quote" a post, you will notice that it starts with "quote" in square brackets, and ends with "/quote" in square brackets. The "/" is the "off" command. Similarly "qb" and "/qb" are used for bold - everything in between the 2 commands are in bold.

If you want to split up the quote, then you have to add these at the start and end of each section. Use preview to see what it looks like..

graeme,thanks i will try to do what you said for my quoteing,if it doesnt work,then i guess i didn't understand,lol <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> <hr /></blockquote>This is where I am confused. Most of the other advice I have had says I need to get it out and stopped right away. We are still married and when I asked before if there was anyone she said no. So at the very least she has lied to me

Now remember this is JMO,I feel if your M was fine and one day you relized she has been cheating with OM then I would agree to expose affair.

Your case is different,You are the one who left,moved in with another woman,caused your W much pain and her hopeing to work out the M for 3 yrs.
You relized you wanted to make M work,Your W didn't feel the same anymore,told you she did't want to work M out and only wanted to be friends.

To me the only thing your wife has done to you was lie about OM.She did't cheat on you b/c you were no longer a couple.So there for I feel you have no right to expose anything,To me it will cause more harm then good.

Wife lied to you cause she probly felt ashamed b/c om is married,and maybe she did't want you to find out cause she knew it was't gong to last with om.She was enjoying being wanted.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> <hr /></blockquote>I understand you perfectly, and half of me thinks the same way, but again, a lot of the advice I get says strike while the iron is hot...

Be patient,fill the love bank <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Remember,she didn't cheat on you,it may feel that way,but it's not the case.
You need to treat your situation the way it is.

How can you exspose an A when you were't cheated on?

Why exspose to cause her resentment towards you,or to seem controlling?

Your exsposer may come across to her as you saying to her"your going to bemine oneway or another no matter who i have to hurt to get you" Again controlling,isn't that one of her complaints to you that you were controlling?

Like i said if A is over with OM,she maybe going through withdraw,give it a while and do plan A.

She waited 3yrs for you,its your turn to wait for her if you want your M to work <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks, all of that makes a lot of sense. Oh I don't know what to do anymore. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

If I could only see that she wanted things to improve then time would not be a problem at all.

WoW I made sense,lol <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ,I thought i was going to confuse you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Keep us updated <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm totally confused

lol, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

i guess the only way to see if she wants the M to work out will be how she response to plan A.

EXCUSE ME!! HELLOOOO!!!!!!!

Graeme,

PLEASE!! We had this "talk" just this week-end. You had a plan, a good plan. Don't go getting all confused now!

Amanda, begging your pardon, dear, but -
You've only been at this what? A month? There IS a method to this system. Dr. Harley has followed the marital "messes" of literally hundreds of couples for many, many years; and he's come up with this system that this website is based on.

Have you read the Concepts? Have you ordered any of the books? There really are important concepts to follow, which have tried and true results.

I understand what you are telling graeme about his W and her OM, vs. graeme and what he did to lead to this turn of events. But, Amanda, here's the thing: Regardless of why graeme is in this mess, the fact of the matter is that his w IS having an A with OM, and graeme is now the one who is seeking to repair the damage created by him. Graeme's W going out and finding OM is NOT OK.

Two wrongs don't make a right. In this case, greame's W has NO RIGHT to be seeing someone else(as I don't believe they are div'd). If she wants to "move on" without him, then I'd suggest they go through w/a div. first. At that point, she would be free to see anyone else (although M'd men still wouldn't be fair game).

Graeme, my advice to you at this point would be that you look for another way to find OM's phone # (as per Amanda's advice), but my other advice to you stands as I wrote it the other day. Get on with Plan B, man.

BTW - <blockquote>quote:<hr />I have absolutely no intentions of telling his W. I have no wish at all to cause his W to enter this nightmare<hr /></blockquote>I disagree with this statement. Graeme, think for a moment....

Her H is having an A with your W. She IS in this nightmare...... Would you want someone to "spare" you that bright spot at an otherwise incredibly dark time? Or would you want them to break this kind of news to you while having something positive to add to it? I would truly consider calling her anyway, simply to give her survival skills for what she is going to encounter when she finds out (and she will, you know it).

Go back and re-read Harley's concepts pages. It's all clearly defined in there.

I'm behind ya either way, my friend. I KNOW this is a terribly, horribly confusing time....a time for worrying about a possible misstep which might impact the whole rest of your life. Although I don't truly believe it's all that critical......but I do believe we think it's that critical while we're passing through it.

Take care my friend.

lupolady,

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Amanda, begging your pardon, dear, but you only been hear about a month-

[QUOTE] I understand what you are telling graeme about his W and her OM, vs. graeme and what he did to lead to this turn of events. But, Amanda, here's the thing: Regardless of why graeme is in this mess, the fact of the matter is that his w IS having an A with OM, and graeme is now the one who is seeking to repair the damage created by him. Graeme's W going out and finding OM is NOT OK. <hr /></blockquote>Ok,to me graeme has been separated for a few years now b/c of his doing,right?
How is W having an A if they are separated?

She already told him she didnot want to continue to be married right?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Two wrongs don't make a right. In this case, greame's W has NO RIGHT to be seeing someone else(as I don't believe they are div'd). If she wants to "move on" without him, then I'd suggest they go through w/a div. first. At that point, she would be free to see anyone else (although M'd men still wouldn't be fair game <hr /></blockquote>No two wrong do not make a right,i agree.
And I agree she shouldn't see anyone until D is finale if thats what they choose to do.

All I was saying to greame was what his wife maybe thinking. I also told him everything i was saying was JMO.

I feel you were a little rude to state that since i only been here a month that im not as good as anyone else to state my opions.

I didnot tell him to do anything,Just gave him MO.

And at this time I donot feel he shouls ask his W for the OM phone number,or call the OM.If you read my replies I state why It may do more harm then good.

His W at this time maynot see it as cheating b/c H already betrayed her and ended the M 3yrs ago.

Im just trying to see things through his wifes eyes.Im not trying to tell him what to do or how to go about it,im just stateing MO.

Yes i have read for months all of concepts,orderd a few books,yes i am new,but i feel i am able to post MO just like anyone else.

greame knows in his heart what he feels,and his is the only one who sees his W reactions to him to know weather he should confront her about om or just go to plan A.

please lets get along <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Wow! Don't fight over me now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

It's true we're not divorced. Any time the subject has come up my W has said "there is no us", and consistently said she does not want a divorce (and wouldn't agree to one).

She met the OM when we were "half" together (I don't know the extent of it but there were lots of emails before we went off for a week in NYC), so I don't have any doubt she was in the wrong.

She is in denial that it was any more than a good friend (probably to herself as much as me). I'm not even sure that she thinks it's wrong (except that he's M'd).

My worries about confronting OM are that she already told me that she ended it so if she knows I have contacted him then to her mind I am showing lack of trust in her and trying to control her life.

I must say that at this moment in time I want to sit down with her and say that enoughs enough it's time we were both free and that it's time we moved on, and with the D. I have not spoken to her since I called to say happy new year at midnight on the 31st.

But who knows what will be in my mind tomorrow!!

I can do nothing till her mum leaves on friday anyway, so plenty time to continue the debate! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

lupolady,I forgot to add something in last post.

greame stated when he first told his wife that he wanted to make M work and told her how he made a mistake,He also stated he thought she may have been seeing someone.Wife told him she wasn't,he belived her.Now he thinks along she has been seeing OM,even before he told her that he wanted to work on M

So she didnot go out and look for om after greame wanted to make M work.OM has been in the picture the whole time while he was doing plan A.

BTW i think you give awsome advice and i know im new.You are probly better giving advice then I am. I just see that his wife may look at the situation different.She may not see it as cheating since to her they have been separated for a couple of years.

I am sorry if i came off alittle upset,But i felt i was being attack for giving MO after i stated a few times thats all it was is MO,and did state that I was new.

I will not give anymore of MO if it will cause trouble or harm to anyone.

Greame good luck to you,I will pray for you and you wife to work things out <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I will no longer post b/c maybe i may be giving bad advice.
lupolady has been giving you great advice,so im sorry to have intruoded.

Amanda,

Please carry on posting. I'm sure lupolady would agree that there is no right or wrong way for these things - oh how I wish there was!! Discussion on these subject is helpful to us all.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Amanda,P,33:
 lupolady,I forgot to add something in last post.

greame stated when he first told his wife that he wanted to make M work and told her how he made a mistake,He also stated he thought she may have been seeing someone.Wife told him she wasn't,he belived her.Now he thinks along she has been seeing OM,even before he told her that he wanted to work on M

So she didnot go out and look for om after greame wanted to make M work.OM has been in the picture the whole time while he was doing plan A.
<hr /></blockquote>That is definitly the case. I know they were in contact before I asked her and before i got into plan A.

G--,

I'm so sorry you're in this situation. Hopefully, the new year will improve. I agree with Lupo. Plan B. The best case, your wife will decide to reconcile and work through your marital problems. Worst case, you'll be protected from the pain she's inflicting and if you do divorce it will be easier.

You'll sort of be in a win/win situation.

I am so sorry. I know in time you'll come out of this better than ever.

Hi GG, long time no speak.

Well overall I think it's a better situation than through most of last year, I understand a lot more of what went on then and as you say might finally reach a conclusion to all this.

I sent you an email the other day - did you get it?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lupolady:
I'm behind ya either way, my friend. I KNOW this is a terribly, horribly confusing time....a time for worrying about a possible misstep which might impact the whole rest of your life. Although I don't truly believe it's all that critical......but I do believe we think it's that critical while we're passing through it.<hr /></blockquote>I'm curious about this, why don't you think it's critical? I feel this is the fork in the road.

OK, everybody.......back to our corners! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Amanda, I'm sorry if I offended you. I didn't mean to be so abrupt. I was just trying to interject back into what I thought graeme was going to do.....and then read your posts, and he's confused! I don't want to see him confused.
That's what leads to inactivity, or wrong choices.

Also, I kind of "hear" you telling him to do certain things based on how this all "feels" to you (or to any of us - actually). One thing I learned a long time ago is that all of this must be handled very counter-intuitively. We actually have to learn to do what is opposite what we THINK is the right thing.

When one is embroiled in the mess of an A (on either side of it), we can't think clearly, and often operate on raw emotion. THAT leads us to do all the things that only cause our spouse to move further away from us.

Graeme, for your part, let me clarify this point: What I meant by "I don't truly think this is critical..." is that we often agonize over making a decision - "Should I Plan A, should I plan B, should I leave, should she leave, should I move back home...." blah, blah, blah.

When it comes right down to it, I think if we stay calm, use common sense, and think clearly and focus on the GOAL, I think we won't agonize over every nuance every minute of every day.

After the initial SHOCK (which we all experience, and must deal with), then we have to focus in on a GOAL (reconciling our M?), and then follow a simple, proven PLAN that guarantees the best odds of making that happen. Remember, Harley has studied A's and all their stages for many, many years. THEY ALMOST ALWAYS FOLLOW THE SAME SCRIPT!!

If we keep that in mind, then we realize we are NO different, and our spouses are no different, and the end result will most likely be the same as countless others Harley has helped for decades. Looking at the emotions, letting the fear of pissing your spouse off, or just wanting things to happen quicker than they are, will cause one to spin out of control, and do stupid things that only continue the cycle and keep us pinned in the drama.

On a personal note, let me add that as a child, I experienced div' first-hand when my parents divorced. My mother pretty much lost her mind over it. She became a raging maniac, and spent every waking moment vacillating between trying to get my dad back, and hating him, and trying to get us to hate him. How did this work for her? He NEVER considered coming home, we lost contact with him for many years, he didn't pay cs, and she died 6 years later still a bitter and angry person. I could see while reading Harley's Concepts(on-line) and books that my mom had done it ALL WRONG, and NO WONDER they couldn't reconcile! He was one of the 3% that stay with their A partner more than 5 years. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I really believe my mom and her "crazy" behavior had a lot to do with that.

Please continue to think carefully about which way to go with this. I'm still behind you 100% with whatever you choose.

God Bless,

Hi all,

Well I think I made my mind up today (but prepared to be told if it's the wrong thing to do! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

I have made an appointment with my councellor tomorrow & will go through the whole story with her.

So I'm thinking - I'm not going to ring the OM. Because - she's already told me she's ended it & I don't want to give her any excuse to call me controlling/untrusting etc. If she has ended it then I could do damage. If she hasn't ended it then it's because she doesn't want to.. That's not to say I'm not going to bring the subject up..

I'm going to arrange to meet her and do the following:

- give her back my keys to the house. I'm going to tell her that whilst what she did was completely wrong that I was wrong in searching through her things. Not having access gives her the privacy she wants and removes the temptation from me. I'm also going to give her the house deeds. Ok I know this may sound silly (it's jointly owned) but it's something I want to do. I don't want her to worry about money, I am perfectly capable of making decent money - she isn't. And I think she deserves it.

- I'm going to tell her that enough is enough. She says she is not happy but does not want to try and repair our marriage, so she needs me out of it so she can move on. Also that I'm not happy because I've spent the best part of a year hoping that she will at least start to move towards me, not realising that her "friend" was there all the time, with NIL progress. I'll also say that I have no intention of hanging around and hoping for even longer whilst she goes off and meets another OM.

- I'll say that I will no longer come around the house, of course I will be a good parent and continue to see the children, just not there.

- I'll tell her that I'm going to file next week.

So I haven't said a word to her for 3 days now. Today I'm out with my son, to get his car repaired - guess who rings to "see how we got on at the garage" after a couple of hours?? Guess who rings AGAIN in the evening (UK time!!), just to see if I'd ordered the parts for his car??? And speaks about stuff we have to do together (like sorting out HER old papers)... Well I still thought - she just wants to carry on in the safe "friends" way & I'm not going to do that.

[ January 04, 2005, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: graeme ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lupolady:
On a personal note, let me add that as a child, I experienced div' first-hand when my parents divorced. My mother pretty much lost her mind over it. She became a raging maniac, and spent every waking moment vacillating between trying to get my dad back, and hating him, and trying to get us to hate him. How did this work for her? He NEVER considered coming home, we lost contact with him for many years, he didn't pay cs, and she died 6 years later still a bitter and angry person. I could see while reading Harley's Concepts(on-line) and books that my mom had done it ALL WRONG, and NO WONDER they couldn't reconcile! He was one of the 3% that stay with their A partner more than 5 years. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I really believe my mom and her "crazy" behavior had a lot to do with that.
<hr /></blockquote>Lupolady, obviously I'm so sorry to here you went through that as a child..

So easy to fall into that trap though, but it's also sooo sensible when you think about it that working on yourself is the best way of achieving all objectives! When you like yourself then others will too.

graeme,

Sounds like a solid plan, my friend!

Remember, the whole purpose for having a PLAN ahead of time is that when the spouse is told what is about to happen, they WILL freak. When they do, without a solid, well-thought-out plan, you will tend to freak, too, and follow them straight away into insanity! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Don't want that.

It certainly sounds like your W is tippy-toeing around wanting you in her life, but not too close. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I think your plan is a good one. Plan B. Be prepared, tho, for the roller-coaster of emotions that will follow. The threats, the guilty feelings, and anything else your W can think of to prevent the status quo from being shifted on her. DON'T get sucked into them.

God Bless

lupolady,no need to apologize,i had no business to give advice to anyone at this time.

I have problems in my M,so i shouldn't give advice i guess,and i'm still learning everything here.

I have not at this time dealt with an A in my M,but have other issues of other things,but not sure how to word it to make my post.Ill probly post in the EN board or resolving conflict,its alittle of everything so im not sure were to post.

graeme,You sound like you have a good plan,i hope you the best <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hi all, well just by way of an update, I went to see my councellor today. She agrees that my plan is a good one and that it's the right time to do it. The only thing she said was not to file yet - it's important I leave my W a way back if that's what she chooses.

So just a bit more patience (till her mum goes) and I'm gonna blow her mind with it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Amanda - please post your problems, you'll find the support and encouragement helps a lot!

[ January 05, 2005, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: graeme ]

Hi all, well I've just done it, very very unpleasant but I knew in my heart there was no choice.

Her mum left on friday evening. We have problems with our youngest (15) who basically lives in his room and gets depressed about a girl he likes. I think all this is affecting him. Anyway I got a message via the eldest would I go over today for dinner. I rang and asked why. She said we need to sort out the youngest so I said ok. She also managed to drop in that she'd cook my favourite (which she doesnt like).

I went over. We talked about our son and agreed we need to get him to councelling, which I will arrange. She chatted for a while about her mum & her work.

Then I gave her the paper where I signed over the house to her. She burst into tears and asked why. I told her she deserved it. That we had spent half our lives together and I wanted to make sure she would be alright in the future. Then I gave her my keys & said that although I didn't regret raking through the house that she was right it was her home and she ought to have some privacy. She said yes I was wrong (no mention of OM at all!!).

Then I said I'd done a lot of thinking and that the situation was no good, that I had spent a year with her on my mind constantly just wishing for her to say lets try and fix this. I said I'd realised that that wasn't going to happen and that I had to get on with my life. I said we could only be married or not, not friends and did she expect me to hang about while she found another man then dumped me.

She was quite speechless and just said to remember that it was me doing this & why would she meet someone else just because one person had liked her. She said she wants to stay friends and did this mean she couldn't call if she needed advice. I said if she wanted me then call me, but if she wanted a friend then call a friend.

I said I would continue to be as good a dad as possible.

She came out with a lot about how I had left etc etc.

Anyway then I said I better go (before my dinner!!). She gave me the jumper and underwear she had just bought for me. I took it but said friends don't go shopping for each other. And I left.

It was horrible. I didn't want to do it. But I know how sensible an option it was. I know it was the right thing to do. Guess I just hoped for more of a positive reaction there and then.

[ January 09, 2005, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: graeme ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by graeme:
 well I've just done it, very very unpleasant but I knew in my heart there was no choice.
It was horrible. I didn't want to do it. But I know how sensible an option it was. I know it was the right thing to do. Guess I just hoped for more of a positive reaction there and then. <hr /></blockquote>graeme,

I am so sorry for the pain you are feeling now. You are right.......it was the right thing, at the right time. I'm sure on some level you feel a great weight was lifted, while at the same time, you feel very alone and indescribably sad.

You are also right in believing (hoping?) to have gotten a different reaction. I think we (maybe subconsciously) set ourselves up with expectations of a "fairy tale" ending whenever we set out on such a distasteful job. "oh, I'm sure she'll run into my arms, forgive me unconditionally and we'll live happily ever after...."

It's a process. How ever this thing turns out, know that you are remorseful for what you've done in your M, and your W is responsible for her part in ending it as well (and she DID have a part).

IF (and it is still a possibility, so don't forget that, OK?), you get a chance to reconcile and heal your M, I believe both of you will have learned hard but valuable life lessons to serve you well for the remainder of your life to safe-guard against a repeat occurrance.

Stay strong, stay dark. Let her brood. She will now have to live with the decisions she made. Does she want to stay angry at you for the rest of her life? Is she going to find someone else to "help with the children" at this critical stage of their lives? Or will she turn 'round and decide that you are forgiveable, and maybe she should give that a go.

Only time will tell. Keep reading, keep posting, keep growing. This "alone" time will serve to make you a better person if you use it wisely.

God Bless,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lupolady:
graeme,

I am so sorry for the pain you are feeling now. You are right.......it was the right thing, at the right time. I'm sure on some level you feel a great weight was lifted, while at the same time, you feel very alone and indescribably sad.<hr /></blockquote>Well at the time I thought I don't want to do this. I want to see this woman as much as I can, in whatever circumstances. I left very upset. But once I was away, yes I knew I had done the right (or the only) thing I could possibly do.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />IF (and it is still a possibility, so don't forget that, OK?), you get a chance to reconcile and heal your M, I believe both of you will have learned hard but valuable life lessons to serve you well for the remainder of your life to safe-guard against a repeat occurrance.<hr /></blockquote>Hey come on - at least you should be more confident than me!
I just know that we both have learned plenty, and I know how great the future could be. That's why it's so hard.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />God Bless, <hr /></blockquote>You know, being on this site has really made me think about the unhappiness that's about. I really feel for the pain that so many people suffer.

I'm really starting to wonder if I'm stupid or what. All the past year I've thought there were signs of hope.

We just had a telephone call. It started because our son is a bit screwed up, so we had to talk. Anyway we soon got onto "us". She said she had thought we could remain friends and was shellshocked by what I said yesterday. We were on the phone for an hour and a half I think. We went over all the old stuff. She brought up me leaving her. I asked why she thought what I did was different to what she has done? No real answer but she clearly feels no guilt about her A at all (in fact kept denying it was any more than a friend!), and does not think that I have any right to complain anyway as "we dont have a marriage any more". (EDIT - and she has now turned her "I know I've been stupid and will end it" into "you made it very clear that if I didn't end it I would end up in (OMs) divorce court"!)

I said that I had spent a year just wanting her forgiveness, and a chance to start fixing things. She kept on about not getting back into being controlled and that she just wanted to be happy. No matter what I said she would just not believe that I was being honest with her. She kept saying "you're a very clever man" (ie manipulation) and why couldn't I just get on with my life. She said she wasn't getting back into something that I would get bored with and leave her again.

I said how can we be friends. That I could have waited around for years if I thought eventually that she would forgive me and we could start to fix things. Did she expect me to hang around till she met someone else? She answered by saying "who's going to want me"?

NEVER did she give me any reason to think that she would ever want to be any more than friends. We ended by her saying she wanted to stay friends and I could talk to her anytime. I said I didn't understand why she wasn't telling me to get lost. She said she would never hurt anyone like that.

So I as usual am confused! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> From what she said and how she said it, I should think that there is NO love there, that a friendship is all that she wants and all there will ever be.

But of course I have read the site, but I am really wondering if I read far too much into the "little signs" throughout the past year?

So HELP! please. Is this normal or is it really friends or nothing? I can tell you that my temptation is to jump right back into plan A'ing again (no I'm not going to! been there done that got the T-shirt etc!!!) But I do need to know how this compares to other peoples experiences.

I believe one thing when I'm talking to her (ie no hope), but then after I start to convince myself that it's part of the process and yes there's hope. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

[ January 10, 2005, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: graeme ]

graeme,

This is exactly why when you go dark, you go dark.

Whenever you talk to your spouse, you tend to get more confused, and begin to waste lots of time trying to analyze what they said, and what it means.

To me, this conversation simply means she's as confused as you are!

Go dark, my friend. It's all been said. You've made your position clear. She's made hers. Just go dark. Live your life (as much as possible). Be a good dad, better yourself as a man. But let the rest slide for now.

The more peaceful you can make your surroundings, the quicker you can begin to heal yourself. Will she want to talk again? Probably.
Will she come around? I don't know.

But you can see how much more peaceful it would be if you didn't talk to her at all. Give that a chance for about 2 weeks, ok?

Can you email and arrange to visit the children without engaging in conversation wtih her? Or make a plan to take them out to dinner or something? I'd stay completely away from her for a time, but don't let that keep you away from your children. If you call to talk to them, you'll end up talking to her, and then she won't believe what you have said is for real.

Graeme, listen, at this point, it is critical that she believe you are truly moving on with your life. Otherwise, she will believe you will always just be hanging on, waiting for - what? For her to continue to beat you up over all this? Let her punish you forever b/c of this mess?

It needs to be over. It needs to be behind you both. You both need to move past it.

Let her stew now. Let her be.

Go dark.

Wow Lupo!

I don't even know what to say other than WOW !!!

Glory to God. I truly am speechless and happy for you. For all the heartache and hurt on the board to actually see someone reconciled with their ex is a miraculous thing.

Truly, nothing is impossible with God.

I wish you a double portion of happiness <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

graeme,

No you are not stupid at all. These things are very emotional. Maybe she's been teetering back and forth on the issue.

Maybe you were reading the signs correctly but she keeps changing her position.

About a month after my husband left and moved in with his g/f he comes to the house with lingerie he bought for ME. (sign)*

Another time he says with puppy dog eyes "I really miss you." (sign)*

Unfortunately he was still living with and sleeping with his girlfriend at the time

(sign pointing the other direction) *

He's been very manipulative and continuously lied (sign in other direction)*

Also a month after leaving says "I wonder if I've made a huge mistake." (sign)

Since he was busted beyond denial anylonger and we've stopped "being" together he's gotten very mean.
(sign in the other direction)

So, do you see what I mean?

It's not neccessarily that you read the signs wrong, but maybe she flip flops like my husband is doing too.

Hi Tess,

Is your story on here? I'm interested in reading it because it seems that we're in the same situation but at opposite ends!

Lupolady, I'm afraid I'm no good at all at this game <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I haven't posted for a day or two because I'm way off track with my plan...

As I said the monday phone call preyed on my mind a lot, I've been over at the house most days this week as I'm fixing sons car (W is out working all day). Anyway tuesday I left some flowers for her. No note.

She called at night to say thanks. We ended up chatting for 2 hours, she even went off to prepare dinner than rung back. We just chatted normally and a lot of remeniscing about the kids etc. What we'd each been doing etc. Really nice call.

Just been over again, our paths crossed when she got home so we sat and chatted again for another 2 hours. We're going out to the cinema and for dinner on saturday.

So I think plan B is blown sky high just now. I know this is probably all the wrong thing to do at this point but it's done now... I just haven't got the strength to be dark with her. I KNOW how much love I have for this woman and I KNOW she doesn't want me out of her life (I just wish she would know it too! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> )

Anyway it looks like I'm back to plan A for the meantime so I'm going to give it a few weeks and see what happens, it would be wrong right now to change again and get on with plan B.

graeme,

Did you give her a Plan B note? I'm sorry, I'm distracted, writing this "Off the cuff" and can't remember.

If you're on line now, please respond. I'm headed somewhere......

Hi I'm here.

I gave her my keys back and told her I could not live with being friends, that we are either married or not..

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by graeme:

I gave her my keys back and told her I could not live with being friends, that we are either married or not.. <hr /></blockquote>OK, got it.

See, here's my concern......

I'm concerned she will see your openness to talking with/meeting with her as YOU not being serious that you will NOT be "friends only."

Do you see that? She needs to know that YOU are just as hurt over all this as she, that it hurts you over and over whenever you see/talk to her, but not acting as H and W.

I'm thinking she's doing what the "normal WS" would do when given a Plan B letter: They try to get their BS to abandon that idea and go back to the status quo.

It kinda sounds like you are getting stuck in that same pattern of behavior by spending so much time talking to her right now. I'm NOT saying there won't come a time to talk. It's just that I'm concerned this is NOT about reconciling. This is "talking" in order for her to continue to get her "fix" of you.

Yes, she still "needs" you - on some levels. Just wants to stay angry at you, and NOT act as though you two are M'd. But wants to know you are available to her.

My 2Â¢ only <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

God Bless,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lupolady:
See, here's my concern......

I'm concerned she will see your openness to talking with/meeting with her as YOU not being serious that you will NOT be "friends only."

Do you see that? She needs to know that YOU are just as hurt over all this as she, that it hurts you over and over whenever you see/talk to her, but not acting as H and W.

I'm thinking she's doing what the "normal WS" would do when given a Plan B letter: They try to get their BS to abandon that idea and go back to the status quo.

It kinda sounds like you are getting stuck in that same pattern of behavior by spending so much time talking to her right now. I'm NOT saying there won't come a time to talk. It's just that I'm concerned this is NOT about reconciling. This is "talking" in order for her to continue to get her "fix" of you.

Yes, she still "needs" you - on some levels. Just wants to stay angry at you, and NOT act as though you two are M'd. But wants to know you are available to her.

My 2Â¢ only <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

God Bless, [/QB]<hr /></blockquote>Hi, well I don't really know what to say.

Yes all that you say, and all I read makes perfect sense.

So the going out for dinner etc is just enough to keep me interested so I don't "rock the boat"? Oh why do we play such games??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Will she expect this situation to go on for ever then? I think I've well and truly blown any chances of my plan B being taken seriously this time now.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by graeme:
Will she expect this situation to go on for ever then? I think I've well and truly blown any chances of my plan B being taken seriously this time now. <hr /></blockquote>No, I think you can get back on track with your Plan B. Just reiterate your "conditions" to her. Tell her you realized (again) after the last go-round and time spent talking together how much you love her, and how much it hurts to try to just be friends, and chat occasionally.....blah, blah.

You know what to say.

Of course - tell her again that you're so very sorry for this whole mess. That you realize it all started with YOUR screw-up. But also that you realize you screwed up royally, and you are now trying to make amends to her. That you wish she could see it in her heart to try to trust you again, and let you prove to her that you truly love her and want to be faithful to her for the rest of your lives.

But, if she can't........well, then, it's Plan B.

I think that's the best way to get back to Plan B, without blowing it totally. She will know ~exactly~ what you are doing and why.

"Friends" doesn't cut it. You love her too much. This way (HER WAY) means both of you are miserable, lonely, seeking what you cannot find while hanging on (at least partially) to each other. YOUR WAY (Plan B) means you are away from each other, from hurting each other, and being hurt by each other, and can begin to heal, and move on.

Graeme, listen. AT THIS POINT, IT'S CRUCIAL THAT SHE BELIEVE YOU ARE MOVING ON. THAT ALONE is what is going to have her start to imagine life without you totally, and have her begin to re-evaluate if that's really the life she wants for her future.

I'm praying for you, my brother.

God Bless,

Hi!

Well it's almost 2am here in the UK, so I'm going to keep this short!

We just went out to dinner, had a lovely meal, chatted all night - no pressure stuff, went back to hers for coffee, then I left after a couple of hugs and a very sterile kiss. I can see that we're just in the same rut as always, although I would say that the last few weeks I've met quite a few ENs so at least I think the time has not been wasted. Leaving a positive impression before plan "B"ing must be the right thing to do.

She said she would call me so we will see what happens.

I know I've got to re-instate plan "B" if there is to be any chance at all of breaking out of this, so I will wait for the right time in the next week then tell her that it's one or the other now...

Thanks again and God bless

I think it may be best to do this by letter. I'm more able then to control what I say without emotions getting in the way (and of course I won't see her non-reaction <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> ). She did tell me to stop writing her letters but I think it's needed this time.

So here's my first attempt...

W,

I've been in a lot of turmoil the last while. I love you from the bottom of my heart, I love being near you, I love everything about you.

I know what a mess I've got us both in, and the only wish I've had for a long time was that you could start to trust me again and that we could begin to look to the future not the past. But that's not going to happen.

I told you the other day that I couldn't cope with just being friends. It's not what I want, I need someone to love and care for.

I've got to try and find a life without you so I think we're going to have to stop seeing and chatting to each other. With me around you can't move on with your life either.

I also think that we have to put an end to all this mess, so I will see a lawyer soon and get it over with.

I want you to be happy, I've looked after you as best I can. You have the house, I'll carry on paying what we agreed.

Love Graeme

Well, g, here's the thing.

It looks OK to me,sounds as tho you've covered the important points, buuut, I never had to write a Plan B letter, so I'm no good at judging.

Maybe you can post it on GQII and let some "experts" have a poke at it?

As I said, it looks OK to me, but what do I know? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

God Bless,

Hi, well I never did get to tell her I was moving on. After the 5 minute phone call 2 weeks ago, nothing. I suppose she expected me to call, I didn't, so now neither of us will.

It's over 2 weeks since we've communicated at all so I've no idea what she's thinking. I wouldn't be surprised if she thinks I've met someone, that's been her reaction before. But of course she could be quite content with the situation as it is.

I guess I just have to stick it out now and leave the ball in her court. I keep feeling that I want to prod things but I think it's best just to wait.

Plan B is certainly not for the faint hearted!!

Does anyone understand women!!!!

I prodded her.

I filled in the divorce papers and sent her a copy with a note saying that although it wasn't what I wanted we had obviously reached the end of the road, so we may as well get it all over and done with. I haven't filed them though.

The minute she got them my phone rang, then my mobile, then the phone twice again. Then she appeared at my door - having come 20 miles.

She was here for the last 4 hours. Doesn't want a divorce, says she doesn't know what she wants. Kept saying it was my choice and she wanted to be friends.

I don't know how many times I said that friends don't work, there was 2 choices only and as she didn't want me then I had no choice left, that I'd spent a year living in hope but that now I had given up.

Towards the end she tried "we're on holiday soon" "will you help me clear the garden" "won't you come for tea" "do you mean I'll never see or speak to you again". But there was nothing concrete enough for me to give in. She kept trying to say it was my choice...

When she went she tried to give me a kiss but I said no.

I did think it was tantalisingly close, but not close enough.

Hopefully she has lots to think about now.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by graeme:

Plan B is certainly not for the faint hearted!! <hr /></blockquote>No, graeme, it certainly is NOT!

Stand your ground. You said it, you have to let her know you mean it.

I think I told you she would try to weaken your resolve. Hold steady, friend.......

This thing only has two ways to go. Either she will "relent" and agree to try to fix your M, or she will pull further away, and you will end up Div'd. By putting yourself in Plan B, you are preparing yourself (mentally anyway) for the second option. IF she "comes around" during this self-imposed Plan B, then this time spent alone had BETTER have been well spend making yourself a better person, husband, and father.

Trust me on this: Recovery ain't for the faint-hearted, either. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Trust me. This IS your best option of recovering your M.

And I'm praying for you.

God Bless,

G, so how's Plan B going???

Ominously quiet over there.

Hi GG,

I'm getting used to it I think. The worst thing is how time drags. Days feel like weeks, I even came on here at the weekend to see if it really had been just a few days - I honestly thought it was weeks! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Anyway nothing at all has happened since my last post. Caught myself a few times trying to think of an excuse for contact, but it's not going to happen!

Anyone make sense of this one....??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I sent OM an email on 1/1/5 to the hotmail address I found on the PC. I said:

"It would be sensible for you to listen to what I have to say"

No answer - till yesterday, and I got:

"how can i help you"

I replied:

"you can't"

Just got a reply:

"I might be able to, quite happy to meet you, answer any questions that you have for me, speak soon"

What's he playing at?

He and WW probably had to talk before he got back to you.

How's everything going? You are still "dark" aren't you?

Take care, and God Bless,

Hi,

As dark as a coal mine! - not a foot out of line!

What will you say to OM if you talk with him?

Hi GG

I won't talk to him. Can't see anything that I can gain from that. I replied on saturday:

"I don't have any questions for you.
I hardly think that meeting is a very good idea do you?
I can see absolutely no reason why we would want to meet anyway."

Nothing back from him yet. No doubt he's just panicking that I'm going to talk to his W. No intentions of doing that either, although he is named on the D papers when and if I file them....

I will enjoy knowing he's squirming though!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Went to pick up the youngest last night (from outside the house), first time I've been over there for a while, it wasn't nice. He told me (without prompting) that his mum got "stressed" when he said I was coming for him and took to her bed before I got there (7pm)...

No doubt she also expected the usual card/flowers today - they won't be arriving..

I think that sounds good. No flowers, no canday. No meeting OM and beating him to a pulp. So, what are you doing to keep busy? I spent Sunday morning ironing and watching bad romantic movies.

I have no interest in OM. Anyway I'm told he's xOM.

I don't know why but today I woke up in a good mood (maybe because the weekend's over!). I have plenty to do in my business and am gradually getting more and more motivation to do it.

I think I'll stay away from the ironing and bad movies though!!! That may well do me more damage than good! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

[ February 18, 2005, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: graeme ]

I'm scared and weakening

I haven't been around much lately.

Thought I'd check in tonight. Apparently, it's a good thing I did. How ya holdin' up, graeme?

Don't weaken now!!!! You're doing fine, and as more time goes by, the easier it is to think clearly.

Hang in, my friend.

God Bless,

I'm not doing fine at all, Last few days have been awful. I think the longer it goes on then the nearer to D I get.

Ah well so much for my resolve. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I called her just now. She was pleased to hear from me, said she's been ill for 3 weeks but that I'd said "that was it" so she knew I didn't want to talk to her.

Still getting the "want to be friends" stuff, asked me to go over to help with garden. I said no but she's coming here for dinner tonight. She said provided I didn't "nag" at her. She said "nagging" was me saying that we couldn't be friends because she would sooner or later meet someone else and that she was not looking for anyone else.

The bit that is the most frustrating is that I know she wants to keep some form of relationship going & I just keep feeling that love has got to be there somewhere. I'm so terrified of blowing whatever's left away.

Not much good at this am i?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by graeme:
 I'm so terrified of blowing whatever's left away.
<hr /></blockquote>Well, you WILL blow it big time, if you don't say what you mean, and mean you say.

OIW - IF YOU TOLD HER YOU WEREN'T GOING TO TALK TO HER JUST AS "FRIENDS" - THEN DAMMIT, MEAN IT!

Look, graeme, I'm on your side. Really I am!! I KNOW how terribly hard this is. I also know that if they don't know what they want, and YOU keep waffling, and getting on and off the fence, then how in the world will they ever figure it all out?

I'm sure she was having a time of it, sick and all, and NO graeme to call........then you call, maybe even dinner, and give her a "fix" of graeme, and now she's all set for another few weeks. You're only prolonging the pain, my friend. Hers and yours.

If the M is going to be restored, OK. But that neither can happen if you keep tagging along, doing exactly what she knows you will do. You've got to let her know you are capable and willing to move on without her if she keeps up this type of behavior. That ALONE will cause her to rethink her stance.

As long as she knows, "OK, he'll stew a few weeks, and then he'll come round........I'll just stay dark ON HIM," and she's got you right on the merry-go-round with her!

What happens if she meets ANOTHER guy she wants to spend time with???? Will you then be "devastated," and wonder what to do then? Don't you want your life back? WITH OR WITHOUT HER?

Or do you just want to keep marching around and around this merry-go-round for the rest of your natural life?

I'm sorry to wield such a big 2x4, but I see you waffling in the worst way, and it won't fix things. You've got to go totally with Plan B, OR FORGET IT AND JUST HANG AROUND AND LET HER STOMP ON YOUR FEELINGS FOREVER. There really cannot be a middle ground here.

Plan B IS FOR YOU. It gives you the time away to begin the separating-your-heart-and-saving-your-love. Graeme, no one here doubts you do love your W, and want to fix what you screwed up. But I think when the W is the BS, and then NOT on this site, this is one of the hardest chasm's to cross.

She is ANGRY at you. Rightfully so, of course. But she doesn't see that it doesn't have to be that way. Consequently, this is a very difficult place to come back from. And takes an extremely long time. She must learn she can let down her guard and trust you again. She really does want to, I'm sure. But it takes a LONG TIME for those hurt feelings to die down.

In my humble opinion (from being on these boards for almost 4 years), I think most WS H's give up before their W's come around.....simply b/c of the amount of time necessary for the BW to heal her hurt and trust again.

Will you be one of them?

Are you willing to wait however long it takes for your W to want to try? To feel good about trusting you again?

What's this worth to you? What are willing to go through to make this happen? Plan B ain't for wimps.

That's why we're here to help you. To hold you up, and encourage you, even tho it seems like a losing battle.

Stay strong. Get focused on the goal. Clear your head. Read Harley's stuff again.

God Bless,

Can't say I didn't expect a 2x4! But believe me i KNOW everything that's said here is to help me and that you're on my side. I also know that you're right. But knowing the "right" thing to do is easier said than done sometimes.

She was over for the last 5 hours. I do feel good now. Maybe I had to get my fix of her as well.

The OM is gone. She rang him 3 weeks ago when I said I was filing to warn him but has not spoken to him otherwise. She did not know he emailed me.

We had a long chat about us. I told her what was going on in my head. She doesn't believe me and thinks I'm inconsistent and playing games with her. I stressed again that friends don't work and it had to go one way or the other.

I do feel that at least I made the situation clearer to her - if she listened.

I think you are 100% right about the anger.

Anyway it's done now. She left saying she would call me, we'll see.

EEEKS! So, what happened?

Graeme, your wife is having her cake and eating it too.

When a woman says, "I just want to be friends," or "I think we should start by being friends again," or any variation thereof, she's really saying, "I know you adore me, and I enjoy having a love slave at my beck and call, however, I'm not romantically attracted to you, so therefore, I'll let you tag around with me, and I'll use you when I have nothing better to do."

That's the message your wife is giving you. Period. End of discussion. The flip-flopping is understandable, but not good for you or her.

Let me also remind you that you didn't see the light until your wife started to move on. Get your life together. Your wife may wake up the way you did, and if not, you'll still have your life together.

What does "get your life together" mean? I haven't a clue. LOL.

LL/GG,

Wow another 2x4. I have got to say that although Lupoladys post got me thinking how right it was and that I needed a good kicking, this is the quote that has really gone home with me:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Greengables:
When a woman says, "I just want to be friends," or "I think we should start by being friends again," or any variation thereof, she's really saying, "I know you adore me, and I enjoy having a love slave at my beck and call, however, I'm not romantically attracted to you, so therefore, I'll let you tag around with me, and I'll use you when I have nothing better to do."

That's the message your wife is giving you. Period. End of discussion. The flip-flopping is understandable, but not good for you or her.
<hr /></blockquote>I've been fine since I saw her. I know I should have held out and that it's the best chance I have, but since that post I have found my mindset changing. I think it is gradually bothering me less and less. I am accepting that I am being "used" if I can put it like that.

I feel I am getting nearer and nearer to being able to move on with doing it as a means to get my W back, if that makes sense.

BUT having now been so inconsistent, I'm reluctant to show myself to be even more inconsistent and jump right back into PB. A few things are coming up and happening that make we want to watch for a few weeks and see.

It is our eldests 18th birthday in 3 weeks, W said when she was over that "we" needed to decide what "we" were doing for the occassion. I had already decided not to "rock the boat" until after this.

I had our other son out on monday, she called here to say she was tired and wanted to go to her bed and would I be late bringing him back. I didn't quite see how that stopped her & said so and that I would just be dropping him off anyway. Chatted for an hour or so. My son looked at me after and said - why'd she call you and not me, they both have mobiles??

We talked about the 18th and what we could do. I suggested a few things including a weekend away at Disneyland Paris. She thought that was a great idea <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . Ok so I thought I wonder if she knows I mean all of us...

She called tonight, an hour and a half this time. Started with some problems with the youngest skipping school, then we got onto the 18th again. His birthday is a friday, so I managed to ask about them all getting time off - she said that she couldn't take off more than the friday <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

We talked about different ideas, but kept coming back to Disney and what great times we had in the past.

She started to realise what it meant and did say "we have to make sure we're doing this for the right reasons, it's his birthday that matters". I said yes it is and you need to make sure you're comfortable with going away for the weekend as well. I told her to think about it. She suggested a couple of other things, probably to avoid the weekend, but has not said no. She didn't say any more but I sense that she is starting to realise she's getting herself into a corner.

She said she better come over so we can decide finally and get whatever we decide booked, so she's coming on friday, we're going out to dinner and sorting the birthday.

I have no expectations. As I said I am much nearer being able to move on, but I have to be honest and say that I think a "family" weekend away has got to be worth trying, if of course it gets that far. It wouldn't surprise me if she came up with a "brainwave" for his birthday that meant not going away for the weekend.

I also mailed OM on sunday, told him I was pleased to hear there was no contact anymore, that I hoped it stayed that way and that I would mail him if/when I filed so there was no need to ask my W. I said it was time he considered his own W as she was bound to have suspicions.

Your views welcome as always!

Okay, Graeme, it's your life and your choice. I personally found Plan B impossible to do with children in the mix, not to mention attending MC. So, I understand.

I'm very worried about the smiley faces. I think you are overly optimistic, no matter how much you say you have no expectations.

Also, do you realize that one reason you feel a little more comfortable with the idea of moving on is that you too have had a "fix"? By seeing her, you got your needs met and refueled.

You know how we talk about the Wayward Spouse going through withdrawal? And how if WS has any contact with OP, WS starts withdrawal all over again? The same dynamics apply in Plan B, for both parties.

I'll check in with you later.

Well sure enough, no weekend away. She finally admitted that she wasn't comfortable with playing "happy families" even though she knew we'd have a great time.

I'm really tired of all this. Even before she arrived tonight I just wanted it to be over. I do have expectations - of no progress.

We went out and had a lovely dinner tonight, but there is no sign of any feeling at all from her. I've just been dragged right back into the friends business again. A little bit of what I feel dies every time I see her, and I really don't think it matters to her.

{{{{{graeme}}}}}

I'm sorry the weekend away didn't work out. I'm sorry that she doesn't seem to care whether your love for her dies away or not.

May I suggest something?

I'd like to suggest a Time Out. Not that bizarre modern day version of standing in the corner. More the athletic one.

Why not take a holiday from working on your marriage? Don't do Plan A or Plan B or Plan Graeme, or Plan D.

After some breathing room, you may see your way more clearly.

Today she brought our son over (he's staying the night). She wanted to go shopping so the three of us went to a nearby city .. Spent a nice afternoon together. She didn't want to stay for dinner with us but said she may come over tomorrow???

Very happy and friendly but no affection.

So how do I take "time out"? surely I'm either in Plan A, B or D???

I'm trying to be logical about this. I want to do whatever has the best chance of US moving ahead together, but I really haven't a clue what that is. Nothing seems to bring out any affection.

I think a "time out" is not a doing state, but more of a being state. For me, it's a place where I'm not "moving forward" in any way, alone or together.

I'm not working towards something. I'm just living in the current situation and seeing what that feels like, what it looks like.It's a way of recharging your batteries without some of the stresses Plan B brings.

It's a time of reflection. What do I like about the current situation? What do I dislike? What can I live with? What is too harmful to live with? What are my true feelings for my spouse now? What is my motivation for trying to save my marriage now?

But, these reflections come about at odd moments, and for the most part when I've taken a time out, I focused my energy on other areas of my life: work, children, home.

I'm not sure how it would look for you. Time out doesn't fit into the structured frame work of MB. It's more fluid. For that reason, it can breed complacency.

Oh, and graeme, don't let your wife just announce when she's available to join you. The proper response is "Oh, I'm sorry, but tomorrow night won't work for me. Maybe we can work something out for next week."

I'm right back in A again.

We were out on sunday bowling and dinner with out youngest. We went out to dinner tonight. Had a long chat about us, brought on by the flowers I sent her. She said she doesn't understand how one minute I'm telling her to stay away and the next sending her flowers. She is very confused over what she wants. She says she does not feel the same, is unhappy and lonely, but is scared of taking any risks with me again. She says she's also scared of her sister who "hates me". She doesn't trust me enough to believe when I say to her about how I feel and want to do all i can to make her happy.

I was too scared to ask any "ultimatum" type questions, because I knew she would say no.

She talks a lot now about the things she felt were wrong in our marriage. She's coming over tomorrow and we're going to dinner on saturday. Next weekend we're going away overnight with the kids. We spoke about a weekend away the following weekend.

graeme:

This is ALL GOOD!!!

Remember, baby steps.

Just take it all S-L-O-W.
Just let it all work itself out - S-L-O-W-L-Y. Don't push things, and DON'T RUSH ANYTHING.

It does sound very positive. And sounds like she might be coming around (did I mention this will have to go S-L-O-W-L-Y?)

P.S. Edited to add: Take things slow, and DON'T suffocate her with attention. Keep your distance. Let her keep thinking things through AT HER OWN PACE.
I think she's coming 'round.

Do'in' "The Happy Dance" with ya! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Take care, and God Bless,

[ March 10, 2005, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: lupolady ]

Don't you think I should take it slow then? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks for that, it does feel like progress, but then again I'm in the same position I was a year ago.... except that OM is off the scene now.

I've been mailing him, told him I don't want to hear that he has even been within eyesight even if it means changing his job.. He told me the same story as W - NC since before christmas.

Well I haven't seen her the last couple of days - since I have been busy. I made a point of going out with friends, and told her I was busy. We also have not spoken since wednesday, felt very odd to me after seeing so much of her before that. I just called her, first thing she asked was did I go out, told her yes saw a lot of old friends and had a good time.

She's out tonight with a friend and the kids but coming over tomorrow so we can go shopping for the eldests 18th birthday. No doubt we'll have dinner as well.

Next weekend is booked - Sat/Sun away, us and our 2 kids. She seems to be looking forward to it, no doubts at all expressed yet and hasn't asked how many rooms I've booked (two). I will bring the subject when I think it's the right time so we get it out of the way before we get there.

Also the theatre in london the following friday is booked, a show she's wanted to see for a long time.

I feel very impatient now but have imprinted S-L-O-W on my forehead!

I feel a bit strange about all this. We went shopping all afternoon, came back to my place for an hour or so & then she went home because she has stuff to do for work tomorrow.

The whole day was very much a "friends" day, no talk about us at all. We spoke briefly about going away next weekend (but only when I raised it). Not a word was said or implied about the "rules" for the weekend or the room arrangements. Also I dropped in the theatre trip a couple of times, but she wasn't very interested in talking about it. A good enough day otherwise.

She's coming for dinner on wednesday.

Oh this is all so frustrating! What should I be expecting?

[ March 13, 2005, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: graeme ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by graeme:
 What should I be expecting? <hr /></blockquote>NOTHING!!!!

Expect nothing. That way none of this will be frustratingly slow-going/infuriating/depressing/(place your own word here).

Actually, this is all good. But remember, it's best to have NO expectations at all!

Graeme, think of it this way: This is like DATING. You don't ask about "personal" things that have nothing to do with you when you are dating. That person is their own entity, and you are yours. You simply enjoy the time you are together,put your best foot forward, and then go your separate ways until the next time you are together.

I think she's just still V-E-R-Y wary of trusting you. Just give it time. LOTS of time just doing what you are doing together. Let her become more and more relaxed just being with you again, and starting to trust you again. Let her come to her own conclusions that you are NOT interested in "dating" anyone else but her (sounds funny, eh?). Once she realizes you aren't "playing the field" - she'll have to admit you are trying to put the past mistakes behind you.

And if I don't "talk" to you before the week-end, I hope it's a great one!

Good luck, and God Bless.

And by the way, let me add this thought as well:

Think of this as a rebuilding time. You are rebuilding a house (your marriage) that you have torn down.

You are not simply adding on (with walls intact). You are literally starting from the ground UP. If you've ever built a house, or watched them build a house, you know that unless you already have walls, it does no good to try to hang pictures, or place furniture around the rooms!

Your house was totally destroyed. (We could lay blame, but it wouldn't do any good anyhow)the main idea here is to picture that your house is lying in ruins in a crumpled pile. Can you see how this illustration shows what part of the process you are in?

Now, it is being rebuilt, but this is a long process. You can't just put a couple of coats of paint on the old structure and move forward. The old structure is gone forever.

Remember that. One brick at a time.

Be patient.

God Bless,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lupolady:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by graeme:
 What should I be expecting? <hr /></blockquote>NOTHING!!!!

Expect nothing. That way none of this will be frustratingly slow-going/infuriating/depressing/(place your own word here).

Actually, this is all good. But remember, it's best to have NO expectations at all!<hr /></blockquote>Why is it all good?
<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Graeme, think of it this way: This is like DATING. You don't ask about "personal" things that have nothing to do with you when you are dating. That person is their own entity, and you are yours. You simply enjoy the time you are together,put your best foot forward, and then go your separate ways until the next time you are together.<hr /></blockquote>Ok so I see that, the frustrating part is the ZERO affection that I see. I feel right back in the "friends" bit that I tried to get out of the last few months.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
I think she's just still V-E-R-Y wary of trusting you. Just give it time. LOTS of time just doing what you are doing together. Let her become more and more relaxed just being with you again, and starting to trust you again. Let her come to her own conclusions that you are NOT interested in "dating" anyone else but her (sounds funny, eh?). Once she realizes you aren't "playing the field" - she'll have to admit you are trying to put the past mistakes behind you.<hr /></blockquote>This is what I want to believe, but it's the zero signs of affection that get to me. It seems that all love has GONE. I find it very hard being myself and relaxed with her, because obviously I'm looking for things to move on.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />[b]
And if I don't "talk" to you before the week-end, I hope it's a great one!

Good luck, and God Bless. [/qb]<hr /></blockquote>Thanks!!

[ March 14, 2005, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: graeme ]

Well we've been out to dinner tonight. Nice and friendly as usual... We've spoken on the phone monday and tuesday nights as well.

This is all taking its toll on me, I just do not understand what is going on in her head.

She drives over here about 3 times a week, never seems all that excited about coming, but she does. She never invites me over there now, I haven't been in the house for almost 3 months.

Zero affection. Zero "us" talk, Zero "future" talk, just acceptance of the way it is. I get a goodbye hug, but the cheek presented when I give her a kiss.

She's looking forward to the weekend away, has never mentioned any "rules" for when we're away, but I know that she will know I've booked only 2 rooms.

Why does she bother? I'm tired.

Hello all.

Well afraid I'm not at all impressed with this new board, I just couldn't get my old username to work, so here I am with a new login..

Anyway, an update. My W is now my girlfriend! We have decided to give it a try and see if we can make a go of things again.

A lot has happened in the last few days/weeks. Briefly we were getting on fine but not progressing much. A one day plan B broke through the barriers and propelled us from friends to being in a relationship instantly.

We seem to have put the past behind us (for the moment anyway), no doubt we will have to address a few things one way or another, but it's going great.

Thanks to all that give support here. For new people, don't lose hope, read and listen and above all believe it when you're told it takes patience, patience and patience!

Graeme

Hi all. I'm home. I moved back six weeks ago (it feels like I've never been away). Things are difficult at times with us both being used to being on our own & we have to continually remind ourselves to spend quality time together, but we'll get there. We are far stronger and closer than when we broke up 4 years ago.

Thanks everyone...

Congratulations! That's wonderful.