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I haven't been around much lately.

Thought I'd check in tonight. Apparently, it's a good thing I did. How ya holdin' up, graeme?

Don't weaken now!!!! You're doing fine, and as more time goes by, the easier it is to think clearly.

Hang in, my friend.

God Bless,

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graeme Offline OP
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I'm not doing fine at all, Last few days have been awful. I think the longer it goes on then the nearer to D I get.

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Ah well so much for my resolve. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I called her just now. She was pleased to hear from me, said she's been ill for 3 weeks but that I'd said "that was it" so she knew I didn't want to talk to her.

Still getting the "want to be friends" stuff, asked me to go over to help with garden. I said no but she's coming here for dinner tonight. She said provided I didn't "nag" at her. She said "nagging" was me saying that we couldn't be friends because she would sooner or later meet someone else and that she was not looking for anyone else.

The bit that is the most frustrating is that I know she wants to keep some form of relationship going & I just keep feeling that love has got to be there somewhere. I'm so terrified of blowing whatever's left away.

Not much good at this am i?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graeme:
<strong> I'm so terrified of blowing whatever's left away.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, you WILL blow it big time, if you don't say what you mean, and mean you say.

OIW - IF YOU TOLD HER YOU WEREN'T GOING TO TALK TO HER JUST AS "FRIENDS" - THEN DAMMIT, MEAN IT!

Look, graeme, I'm on your side. Really I am!! I KNOW how terribly hard this is. I also know that if they don't know what they want, and YOU keep waffling, and getting on and off the fence, then how in the world will they ever figure it all out?

I'm sure she was having a time of it, sick and all, and NO graeme to call........then you call, maybe even dinner, and give her a "fix" of graeme, and now she's all set for another few weeks. You're only prolonging the pain, my friend. Hers and yours.

If the M is going to be restored, OK. But that neither can happen if you keep tagging along, doing exactly what she knows you will do. You've got to let her know you are capable and willing to move on without her if she keeps up this type of behavior. That ALONE will cause her to rethink her stance.

As long as she knows, "OK, he'll stew a few weeks, and then he'll come round........I'll just stay dark ON HIM," and she's got you right on the merry-go-round with her!

What happens if she meets ANOTHER guy she wants to spend time with???? Will you then be "devastated," and wonder what to do then? Don't you want your life back? WITH OR WITHOUT HER?

Or do you just want to keep marching around and around this merry-go-round for the rest of your natural life?

I'm sorry to wield such a big 2x4, but I see you waffling in the worst way, and it won't fix things. You've got to go totally with Plan B, OR FORGET IT AND JUST HANG AROUND AND LET HER STOMP ON YOUR FEELINGS FOREVER. There really cannot be a middle ground here.

Plan B IS FOR YOU. It gives you the time away to begin the separating-your-heart-and-saving-your-love. Graeme, no one here doubts you do love your W, and want to fix what you screwed up. But I think when the W is the BS, and then NOT on this site, this is one of the hardest chasm's to cross.

She is ANGRY at you. Rightfully so, of course. But she doesn't see that it doesn't have to be that way. Consequently, this is a very difficult place to come back from. And takes an extremely long time. She must learn she can let down her guard and trust you again. She really does want to, I'm sure. But it takes a LONG TIME for those hurt feelings to die down.

In my humble opinion (from being on these boards for almost 4 years), I think most WS H's give up before their W's come around.....simply b/c of the amount of time necessary for the BW to heal her hurt and trust again.

Will you be one of them?

Are you willing to wait however long it takes for your W to want to try? To feel good about trusting you again?

What's this worth to you? What are willing to go through to make this happen? Plan B ain't for wimps.

That's why we're here to help you. To hold you up, and encourage you, even tho it seems like a losing battle.

Stay strong. Get focused on the goal. Clear your head. Read Harley's stuff again.

God Bless,

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graeme Offline OP
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Can't say I didn't expect a 2x4! But believe me i KNOW everything that's said here is to help me and that you're on my side. I also know that you're right. But knowing the "right" thing to do is easier said than done sometimes.

She was over for the last 5 hours. I do feel good now. Maybe I had to get my fix of her as well.

The OM is gone. She rang him 3 weeks ago when I said I was filing to warn him but has not spoken to him otherwise. She did not know he emailed me.

We had a long chat about us. I told her what was going on in my head. She doesn't believe me and thinks I'm inconsistent and playing games with her. I stressed again that friends don't work and it had to go one way or the other.

I do feel that at least I made the situation clearer to her - if she listened.

I think you are 100% right about the anger.

Anyway it's done now. She left saying she would call me, we'll see.

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EEEKS! So, what happened?

Graeme, your wife is having her cake and eating it too.

When a woman says, "I just want to be friends," or "I think we should start by being friends again," or any variation thereof, she's really saying, "I know you adore me, and I enjoy having a love slave at my beck and call, however, I'm not romantically attracted to you, so therefore, I'll let you tag around with me, and I'll use you when I have nothing better to do."

That's the message your wife is giving you. Period. End of discussion. The flip-flopping is understandable, but not good for you or her.

Let me also remind you that you didn't see the light until your wife started to move on. Get your life together. Your wife may wake up the way you did, and if not, you'll still have your life together.

What does "get your life together" mean? I haven't a clue. LOL.

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LL/GG,

Wow another 2x4. I have got to say that although Lupoladys post got me thinking how right it was and that I needed a good kicking, this is the quote that has really gone home with me:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Greengables:
<strong>When a woman says, "I just want to be friends," or "I think we should start by being friends again," or any variation thereof, she's really saying, "I know you adore me, and I enjoy having a love slave at my beck and call, however, I'm not romantically attracted to you, so therefore, I'll let you tag around with me, and I'll use you when I have nothing better to do."

That's the message your wife is giving you. Period. End of discussion. The flip-flopping is understandable, but not good for you or her.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've been fine since I saw her. I know I should have held out and that it's the best chance I have, but since that post I have found my mindset changing. I think it is gradually bothering me less and less. I am accepting that I am being "used" if I can put it like that.

I feel I am getting nearer and nearer to being able to move on with doing it as a means to get my W back, if that makes sense.

BUT having now been so inconsistent, I'm reluctant to show myself to be even more inconsistent and jump right back into PB. A few things are coming up and happening that make we want to watch for a few weeks and see.

It is our eldests 18th birthday in 3 weeks, W said when she was over that "we" needed to decide what "we" were doing for the occassion. I had already decided not to "rock the boat" until after this.

I had our other son out on monday, she called here to say she was tired and wanted to go to her bed and would I be late bringing him back. I didn't quite see how that stopped her & said so and that I would just be dropping him off anyway. Chatted for an hour or so. My son looked at me after and said - why'd she call you and not me, they both have mobiles??

We talked about the 18th and what we could do. I suggested a few things including a weekend away at Disneyland Paris. She thought that was a great idea <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . Ok so I thought I wonder if she knows I mean all of us...

She called tonight, an hour and a half this time. Started with some problems with the youngest skipping school, then we got onto the 18th again. His birthday is a friday, so I managed to ask about them all getting time off - she said that she couldn't take off more than the friday <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

We talked about different ideas, but kept coming back to Disney and what great times we had in the past.

She started to realise what it meant and did say "we have to make sure we're doing this for the right reasons, it's his birthday that matters". I said yes it is and you need to make sure you're comfortable with going away for the weekend as well. I told her to think about it. She suggested a couple of other things, probably to avoid the weekend, but has not said no. She didn't say any more but I sense that she is starting to realise she's getting herself into a corner.

She said she better come over so we can decide finally and get whatever we decide booked, so she's coming on friday, we're going out to dinner and sorting the birthday.

I have no expectations. As I said I am much nearer being able to move on, but I have to be honest and say that I think a "family" weekend away has got to be worth trying, if of course it gets that far. It wouldn't surprise me if she came up with a "brainwave" for his birthday that meant not going away for the weekend.

I also mailed OM on sunday, told him I was pleased to hear there was no contact anymore, that I hoped it stayed that way and that I would mail him if/when I filed so there was no need to ask my W. I said it was time he considered his own W as she was bound to have suspicions.

Your views welcome as always!

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Okay, Graeme, it's your life and your choice. I personally found Plan B impossible to do with children in the mix, not to mention attending MC. So, I understand.

I'm very worried about the smiley faces. I think you are overly optimistic, no matter how much you say you have no expectations.

Also, do you realize that one reason you feel a little more comfortable with the idea of moving on is that you too have had a "fix"? By seeing her, you got your needs met and refueled.

You know how we talk about the Wayward Spouse going through withdrawal? And how if WS has any contact with OP, WS starts withdrawal all over again? The same dynamics apply in Plan B, for both parties.

I'll check in with you later.

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Well sure enough, no weekend away. She finally admitted that she wasn't comfortable with playing "happy families" even though she knew we'd have a great time.

I'm really tired of all this. Even before she arrived tonight I just wanted it to be over. I do have expectations - of no progress.

We went out and had a lovely dinner tonight, but there is no sign of any feeling at all from her. I've just been dragged right back into the friends business again. A little bit of what I feel dies every time I see her, and I really don't think it matters to her.

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{{{{{graeme}}}}}

I'm sorry the weekend away didn't work out. I'm sorry that she doesn't seem to care whether your love for her dies away or not.

May I suggest something?

I'd like to suggest a Time Out. Not that bizarre modern day version of standing in the corner. More the athletic one.

Why not take a holiday from working on your marriage? Don't do Plan A or Plan B or Plan Graeme, or Plan D.

After some breathing room, you may see your way more clearly.

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Today she brought our son over (he's staying the night). She wanted to go shopping so the three of us went to a nearby city .. Spent a nice afternoon together. She didn't want to stay for dinner with us but said she may come over tomorrow???

Very happy and friendly but no affection.

So how do I take "time out"? surely I'm either in Plan A, B or D???

I'm trying to be logical about this. I want to do whatever has the best chance of US moving ahead together, but I really haven't a clue what that is. Nothing seems to bring out any affection.

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I think a "time out" is not a doing state, but more of a being state. For me, it's a place where I'm not "moving forward" in any way, alone or together.

I'm not working towards something. I'm just living in the current situation and seeing what that feels like, what it looks like.It's a way of recharging your batteries without some of the stresses Plan B brings.

It's a time of reflection. What do I like about the current situation? What do I dislike? What can I live with? What is too harmful to live with? What are my true feelings for my spouse now? What is my motivation for trying to save my marriage now?

But, these reflections come about at odd moments, and for the most part when I've taken a time out, I focused my energy on other areas of my life: work, children, home.

I'm not sure how it would look for you. Time out doesn't fit into the structured frame work of MB. It's more fluid. For that reason, it can breed complacency.

Oh, and graeme, don't let your wife just announce when she's available to join you. The proper response is "Oh, I'm sorry, but tomorrow night won't work for me. Maybe we can work something out for next week."

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I'm right back in A again.

We were out on sunday bowling and dinner with out youngest. We went out to dinner tonight. Had a long chat about us, brought on by the flowers I sent her. She said she doesn't understand how one minute I'm telling her to stay away and the next sending her flowers. She is very confused over what she wants. She says she does not feel the same, is unhappy and lonely, but is scared of taking any risks with me again. She says she's also scared of her sister who "hates me". She doesn't trust me enough to believe when I say to her about how I feel and want to do all i can to make her happy.

I was too scared to ask any "ultimatum" type questions, because I knew she would say no.

She talks a lot now about the things she felt were wrong in our marriage. She's coming over tomorrow and we're going to dinner on saturday. Next weekend we're going away overnight with the kids. We spoke about a weekend away the following weekend.

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graeme:

This is ALL GOOD!!!

Remember, baby steps.

Just take it all S-L-O-W.
Just let it all work itself out - S-L-O-W-L-Y. Don't push things, and DON'T RUSH ANYTHING.

It does sound very positive. And sounds like she might be coming around (did I mention this will have to go S-L-O-W-L-Y?)

P.S. Edited to add: Take things slow, and DON'T suffocate her with attention. Keep your distance. Let her keep thinking things through AT HER OWN PACE.
I think she's coming 'round.

Do'in' "The Happy Dance" with ya! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Take care, and God Bless,

<small>[ March 10, 2005, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: lupolady ]</small>

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Don't you think I should take it slow then? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks for that, it does feel like progress, but then again I'm in the same position I was a year ago.... except that OM is off the scene now.

I've been mailing him, told him I don't want to hear that he has even been within eyesight even if it means changing his job.. He told me the same story as W - NC since before christmas.

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Well I haven't seen her the last couple of days - since I have been busy. I made a point of going out with friends, and told her I was busy. We also have not spoken since wednesday, felt very odd to me after seeing so much of her before that. I just called her, first thing she asked was did I go out, told her yes saw a lot of old friends and had a good time.

She's out tonight with a friend and the kids but coming over tomorrow so we can go shopping for the eldests 18th birthday. No doubt we'll have dinner as well.

Next weekend is booked - Sat/Sun away, us and our 2 kids. She seems to be looking forward to it, no doubts at all expressed yet and hasn't asked how many rooms I've booked (two). I will bring the subject when I think it's the right time so we get it out of the way before we get there.

Also the theatre in london the following friday is booked, a show she's wanted to see for a long time.

I feel very impatient now but have imprinted S-L-O-W on my forehead!

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I feel a bit strange about all this. We went shopping all afternoon, came back to my place for an hour or so & then she went home because she has stuff to do for work tomorrow.

The whole day was very much a "friends" day, no talk about us at all. We spoke briefly about going away next weekend (but only when I raised it). Not a word was said or implied about the "rules" for the weekend or the room arrangements. Also I dropped in the theatre trip a couple of times, but she wasn't very interested in talking about it. A good enough day otherwise.

She's coming for dinner on wednesday.

Oh this is all so frustrating! What should I be expecting?

<small>[ March 13, 2005, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: graeme ]</small>

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graeme:
<strong> What should I be expecting? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NOTHING!!!!

Expect nothing. That way none of this will be frustratingly slow-going/infuriating/depressing/(place your own word here).

Actually, this is all good. But remember, it's best to have NO expectations at all!

Graeme, think of it this way: This is like DATING. You don't ask about "personal" things that have nothing to do with you when you are dating. That person is their own entity, and you are yours. You simply enjoy the time you are together,put your best foot forward, and then go your separate ways until the next time you are together.

I think she's just still V-E-R-Y wary of trusting you. Just give it time. LOTS of time just doing what you are doing together. Let her become more and more relaxed just being with you again, and starting to trust you again. Let her come to her own conclusions that you are NOT interested in "dating" anyone else but her (sounds funny, eh?). Once she realizes you aren't "playing the field" - she'll have to admit you are trying to put the past mistakes behind you.

And if I don't "talk" to you before the week-end, I hope it's a great one!

Good luck, and God Bless.

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And by the way, let me add this thought as well:

Think of this as a rebuilding time. You are rebuilding a house (your marriage) that you have torn down.

You are not simply adding on (with walls intact). You are literally starting from the ground UP. If you've ever built a house, or watched them build a house, you know that unless you already have walls, it does no good to try to hang pictures, or place furniture around the rooms!

Your house was totally destroyed. (We could lay blame, but it wouldn't do any good anyhow)the main idea here is to picture that your house is lying in ruins in a crumpled pile. Can you see how this illustration shows what part of the process you are in?

Now, it is being rebuilt, but this is a long process. You can't just put a couple of coats of paint on the old structure and move forward. The old structure is gone forever.

Remember that. One brick at a time.

Be patient.

God Bless,

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lupolady:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graeme:
<strong> What should I be expecting? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NOTHING!!!!

Expect nothing. That way none of this will be frustratingly slow-going/infuriating/depressing/(place your own word here).

Actually, this is all good. But remember, it's best to have NO expectations at all!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why is it all good?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Graeme, think of it this way: This is like DATING. You don't ask about "personal" things that have nothing to do with you when you are dating. That person is their own entity, and you are yours. You simply enjoy the time you are together,put your best foot forward, and then go your separate ways until the next time you are together.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok so I see that, the frustrating part is the ZERO affection that I see. I feel right back in the "friends" bit that I tried to get out of the last few months.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I think she's just still V-E-R-Y wary of trusting you. Just give it time. LOTS of time just doing what you are doing together. Let her become more and more relaxed just being with you again, and starting to trust you again. Let her come to her own conclusions that you are NOT interested in "dating" anyone else but her (sounds funny, eh?). Once she realizes you aren't "playing the field" - she'll have to admit you are trying to put the past mistakes behind you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is what I want to believe, but it's the zero signs of affection that get to me. It seems that all love has GONE. I find it very hard being myself and relaxed with her, because obviously I'm looking for things to move on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">[b]
And if I don't "talk" to you before the week-end, I hope it's a great one!

Good luck, and God Bless. [/qb]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks!!

<small>[ March 14, 2005, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: graeme ]</small>

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