G--,

I'm so sorry you're in this situation. Hopefully, the new year will improve. I agree with Lupo. Plan B. The best case, your wife will decide to reconcile and work through your marital problems. Worst case, you'll be protected from the pain she's inflicting and if you do divorce it will be easier.

You'll sort of be in a win/win situation.

I am so sorry. I know in time you'll come out of this better than ever.

Hi GG, long time no speak.

Well overall I think it's a better situation than through most of last year, I understand a lot more of what went on then and as you say might finally reach a conclusion to all this.

I sent you an email the other day - did you get it?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lupolady:
<strong>I'm behind ya either way, my friend. I KNOW this is a terribly, horribly confusing time....a time for worrying about a possible misstep which might impact the whole rest of your life. Although I don't truly believe it's all that critical......but I do believe we think it's that critical while we're passing through it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm curious about this, why don't you think it's critical? I feel this is the fork in the road.

OK, everybody.......back to our corners! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Amanda, I'm sorry if I offended you. I didn't mean to be so abrupt. I was just trying to interject back into what I thought graeme was going to do.....and then read your posts, and he's confused! I don't want to see him confused.
That's what leads to inactivity, or wrong choices.

Also, I kind of "hear" you telling him to do certain things based on how this all "feels" to you (or to any of us - actually). One thing I learned a long time ago is that all of this must be handled very counter-intuitively. We actually have to learn to do what is opposite what we THINK is the right thing.

When one is embroiled in the mess of an A (on either side of it), we can't think clearly, and often operate on raw emotion. THAT leads us to do all the things that only cause our spouse to move further away from us.

Graeme, for your part, let me clarify this point: What I meant by "I don't truly think this is critical..." is that we often agonize over making a decision - "Should I Plan A, should I plan B, should I leave, should she leave, should I move back home...." blah, blah, blah.

When it comes right down to it, I think if we stay calm, use common sense, and think clearly and focus on the GOAL, I think we won't agonize over every nuance every minute of every day.

After the initial SHOCK (which we all experience, and must deal with), then we have to focus in on a GOAL (reconciling our M?), and then follow a simple, proven PLAN that guarantees the best odds of making that happen. Remember, Harley has studied A's and all their stages for many, many years. THEY ALMOST ALWAYS FOLLOW THE SAME SCRIPT!!

If we keep that in mind, then we realize we are NO different, and our spouses are no different, and the end result will most likely be the same as countless others Harley has helped for decades. Looking at the emotions, letting the fear of pissing your spouse off, or just wanting things to happen quicker than they are, will cause one to spin out of control, and do stupid things that only continue the cycle and keep us pinned in the drama.

On a personal note, let me add that as a child, I experienced div' first-hand when my parents divorced. My mother pretty much lost her mind over it. She became a raging maniac, and spent every waking moment vacillating between trying to get my dad back, and hating him, and trying to get us to hate him. How did this work for her? He NEVER considered coming home, we lost contact with him for many years, he didn't pay cs, and she died 6 years later still a bitter and angry person. I could see while reading Harley's Concepts(on-line) and books that my mom had done it ALL WRONG, and NO WONDER they couldn't reconcile! He was one of the 3% that stay with their A partner more than 5 years. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I really believe my mom and her "crazy" behavior had a lot to do with that.

Please continue to think carefully about which way to go with this. I'm still behind you 100% with whatever you choose.

God Bless,

Hi all,

Well I think I made my mind up today (but prepared to be told if it's the wrong thing to do! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

I have made an appointment with my councellor tomorrow & will go through the whole story with her.

So I'm thinking - I'm not going to ring the OM. Because - she's already told me she's ended it & I don't want to give her any excuse to call me controlling/untrusting etc. If she has ended it then I could do damage. If she hasn't ended it then it's because she doesn't want to.. That's not to say I'm not going to bring the subject up..

I'm going to arrange to meet her and do the following:

- give her back my keys to the house. I'm going to tell her that whilst what she did was completely wrong that I was wrong in searching through her things. Not having access gives her the privacy she wants and removes the temptation from me. I'm also going to give her the house deeds. Ok I know this may sound silly (it's jointly owned) but it's something I want to do. I don't want her to worry about money, I am perfectly capable of making decent money - she isn't. And I think she deserves it.

- I'm going to tell her that enough is enough. She says she is not happy but does not want to try and repair our marriage, so she needs me out of it so she can move on. Also that I'm not happy because I've spent the best part of a year hoping that she will at least start to move towards me, not realising that her "friend" was there all the time, with NIL progress. I'll also say that I have no intention of hanging around and hoping for even longer whilst she goes off and meets another OM.

- I'll say that I will no longer come around the house, of course I will be a good parent and continue to see the children, just not there.

- I'll tell her that I'm going to file next week.

So I haven't said a word to her for 3 days now. Today I'm out with my son, to get his car repaired - guess who rings to "see how we got on at the garage" after a couple of hours?? Guess who rings AGAIN in the evening (UK time!!), just to see if I'd ordered the parts for his car??? And speaks about stuff we have to do together (like sorting out HER old papers)... Well I still thought - she just wants to carry on in the safe "friends" way & I'm not going to do that.

<small>[ January 04, 2005, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: graeme ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lupolady:
<strong>On a personal note, let me add that as a child, I experienced div' first-hand when my parents divorced. My mother pretty much lost her mind over it. She became a raging maniac, and spent every waking moment vacillating between trying to get my dad back, and hating him, and trying to get us to hate him. How did this work for her? He NEVER considered coming home, we lost contact with him for many years, he didn't pay cs, and she died 6 years later still a bitter and angry person. I could see while reading Harley's Concepts(on-line) and books that my mom had done it ALL WRONG, and NO WONDER they couldn't reconcile! He was one of the 3% that stay with their A partner more than 5 years. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I really believe my mom and her "crazy" behavior had a lot to do with that.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lupolady, obviously I'm so sorry to here you went through that as a child..

So easy to fall into that trap though, but it's also sooo sensible when you think about it that working on yourself is the best way of achieving all objectives! When you like yourself then others will too.

graeme,

Sounds like a solid plan, my friend!

Remember, the whole purpose for having a PLAN ahead of time is that when the spouse is told what is about to happen, they WILL freak. When they do, without a solid, well-thought-out plan, you will tend to freak, too, and follow them straight away into insanity! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Don't want that.

It certainly sounds like your W is tippy-toeing around wanting you in her life, but not too close. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I think your plan is a good one. Plan B. Be prepared, tho, for the roller-coaster of emotions that will follow. The threats, the guilty feelings, and anything else your W can think of to prevent the status quo from being shifted on her. DON'T get sucked into them.

God Bless

lupolady,no need to apologize,i had no business to give advice to anyone at this time.

I have problems in my M,so i shouldn't give advice i guess,and i'm still learning everything here.

I have not at this time dealt with an A in my M,but have other issues of other things,but not sure how to word it to make my post.Ill probly post in the EN board or resolving conflict,its alittle of everything so im not sure were to post.

graeme,You sound like you have a good plan,i hope you the best <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hi all, well just by way of an update, I went to see my councellor today. She agrees that my plan is a good one and that it's the right time to do it. The only thing she said was not to file yet - it's important I leave my W a way back if that's what she chooses.

So just a bit more patience (till her mum goes) and I'm gonna blow her mind with it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />


Amanda - please post your problems, you'll find the support and encouragement helps a lot!

<small>[ January 05, 2005, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: graeme ]</small>

Hi all, well I've just done it, very very unpleasant but I knew in my heart there was no choice.

Her mum left on friday evening. We have problems with our youngest (15) who basically lives in his room and gets depressed about a girl he likes. I think all this is affecting him. Anyway I got a message via the eldest would I go over today for dinner. I rang and asked why. She said we need to sort out the youngest so I said ok. She also managed to drop in that she'd cook my favourite (which she doesnt like).

I went over. We talked about our son and agreed we need to get him to councelling, which I will arrange. She chatted for a while about her mum & her work.

Then I gave her the paper where I signed over the house to her. She burst into tears and asked why. I told her she deserved it. That we had spent half our lives together and I wanted to make sure she would be alright in the future. Then I gave her my keys & said that although I didn't regret raking through the house that she was right it was her home and she ought to have some privacy. She said yes I was wrong (no mention of OM at all!!).

Then I said I'd done a lot of thinking and that the situation was no good, that I had spent a year with her on my mind constantly just wishing for her to say lets try and fix this. I said I'd realised that that wasn't going to happen and that I had to get on with my life. I said we could only be married or not, not friends and did she expect me to hang about while she found another man then dumped me.

She was quite speechless and just said to remember that it was me doing this & why would she meet someone else just because one person had liked her. She said she wants to stay friends and did this mean she couldn't call if she needed advice. I said if she wanted me then call me, but if she wanted a friend then call a friend.

I said I would continue to be as good a dad as possible.

She came out with a lot about how I had left etc etc.

Anyway then I said I better go (before my dinner!!). She gave me the jumper and underwear she had just bought for me. I took it but said friends don't go shopping for each other. And I left.

It was horrible. I didn't want to do it. But I know how sensible an option it was. I know it was the right thing to do. Guess I just hoped for more of a positive reaction there and then.

<small>[ January 09, 2005, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: graeme ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graeme:
<strong> well I've just done it, very very unpleasant but I knew in my heart there was no choice.
It was horrible. I didn't want to do it. But I know how sensible an option it was. I know it was the right thing to do. Guess I just hoped for more of a positive reaction there and then. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">graeme,

I am so sorry for the pain you are feeling now. You are right.......it was the right thing, at the right time. I'm sure on some level you feel a great weight was lifted, while at the same time, you feel very alone and indescribably sad.

You are also right in believing (hoping?) to have gotten a different reaction. I think we (maybe subconsciously) set ourselves up with expectations of a "fairy tale" ending whenever we set out on such a distasteful job. "oh, I'm sure she'll run into my arms, forgive me unconditionally and we'll live happily ever after...."

It's a process. How ever this thing turns out, know that you are remorseful for what you've done in your M, and your W is responsible for her part in ending it as well (and she DID have a part).

IF (and it is still a possibility, so don't forget that, OK?), you get a chance to reconcile and heal your M, I believe both of you will have learned hard but valuable life lessons to serve you well for the remainder of your life to safe-guard against a repeat occurrance.

Stay strong, stay dark. Let her brood. She will now have to live with the decisions she made. Does she want to stay angry at you for the rest of her life? Is she going to find someone else to "help with the children" at this critical stage of their lives? Or will she turn 'round and decide that you are forgiveable, and maybe she should give that a go.

Only time will tell. Keep reading, keep posting, keep growing. This "alone" time will serve to make you a better person if you use it wisely.

God Bless,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lupolady:
<strong>graeme,

I am so sorry for the pain you are feeling now. You are right.......it was the right thing, at the right time. I'm sure on some level you feel a great weight was lifted, while at the same time, you feel very alone and indescribably sad.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well at the time I thought I don't want to do this. I want to see this woman as much as I can, in whatever circumstances. I left very upset. But once I was away, yes I knew I had done the right (or the only) thing I could possibly do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>IF (and it is still a possibility, so don't forget that, OK?), you get a chance to reconcile and heal your M, I believe both of you will have learned hard but valuable life lessons to serve you well for the remainder of your life to safe-guard against a repeat occurrance.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey come on - at least you should be more confident than me!
I just know that we both have learned plenty, and I know how great the future could be. That's why it's so hard.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>God Bless, </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, being on this site has really made me think about the unhappiness that's about. I really feel for the pain that so many people suffer.

I'm really starting to wonder if I'm stupid or what. All the past year I've thought there were signs of hope.

We just had a telephone call. It started because our son is a bit screwed up, so we had to talk. Anyway we soon got onto "us". She said she had thought we could remain friends and was shellshocked by what I said yesterday. We were on the phone for an hour and a half I think. We went over all the old stuff. She brought up me leaving her. I asked why she thought what I did was different to what she has done? No real answer but she clearly feels no guilt about her A at all (in fact kept denying it was any more than a friend!), and does not think that I have any right to complain anyway as "we dont have a marriage any more". (EDIT - and she has now turned her "I know I've been stupid and will end it" into "you made it very clear that if I didn't end it I would end up in (OMs) divorce court"!)

I said that I had spent a year just wanting her forgiveness, and a chance to start fixing things. She kept on about not getting back into being controlled and that she just wanted to be happy. No matter what I said she would just not believe that I was being honest with her. She kept saying "you're a very clever man" (ie manipulation) and why couldn't I just get on with my life. She said she wasn't getting back into something that I would get bored with and leave her again.

I said how can we be friends. That I could have waited around for years if I thought eventually that she would forgive me and we could start to fix things. Did she expect me to hang around till she met someone else? She answered by saying "who's going to want me"?

NEVER did she give me any reason to think that she would ever want to be any more than friends. We ended by her saying she wanted to stay friends and I could talk to her anytime. I said I didn't understand why she wasn't telling me to get lost. She said she would never hurt anyone like that.

So I as usual am confused! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> From what she said and how she said it, I should think that there is NO love there, that a friendship is all that she wants and all there will ever be.

But of course I have read the site, but I am really wondering if I read far too much into the "little signs" throughout the past year?

So HELP! please. Is this normal or is it really friends or nothing? I can tell you that my temptation is to jump right back into plan A'ing again (no I'm not going to! been there done that got the T-shirt etc!!!) But I do need to know how this compares to other peoples experiences.

I believe one thing when I'm talking to her (ie no hope), but then after I start to convince myself that it's part of the process and yes there's hope. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

<small>[ January 10, 2005, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: graeme ]</small>

graeme,

This is exactly why when you go dark, you go dark.

Whenever you talk to your spouse, you tend to get more confused, and begin to waste lots of time trying to analyze what they said, and what it means.

To me, this conversation simply means she's as confused as you are!

Go dark, my friend. It's all been said. You've made your position clear. She's made hers. Just go dark. Live your life (as much as possible). Be a good dad, better yourself as a man. But let the rest slide for now.

The more peaceful you can make your surroundings, the quicker you can begin to heal yourself. Will she want to talk again? Probably.
Will she come around? I don't know.

But you can see how much more peaceful it would be if you didn't talk to her at all. Give that a chance for about 2 weeks, ok?

Can you email and arrange to visit the children without engaging in conversation wtih her? Or make a plan to take them out to dinner or something? I'd stay completely away from her for a time, but don't let that keep you away from your children. If you call to talk to them, you'll end up talking to her, and then she won't believe what you have said is for real.

Graeme, listen, at this point, it is critical that she believe you are truly moving on with your life. Otherwise, she will believe you will always just be hanging on, waiting for - what? For her to continue to beat you up over all this? Let her punish you forever b/c of this mess?

It needs to be over. It needs to be behind you both. You both need to move past it.

Let her stew now. Let her be.

Go dark.

Wow Lupo!

I don't even know what to say other than WOW !!!

Glory to God. I truly am speechless and happy for you. For all the heartache and hurt on the board to actually see someone reconciled with their ex is a miraculous thing.

Truly, nothing is impossible with God.

I wish you a double portion of happiness <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

graeme,

No you are not stupid at all. These things are very emotional. Maybe she's been teetering back and forth on the issue.

Maybe you were reading the signs correctly but she keeps changing her position.

About a month after my husband left and moved in with his g/f he comes to the house with lingerie he bought for ME. (sign)*

Another time he says with puppy dog eyes "I really miss you." (sign)*

Unfortunately he was still living with and sleeping with his girlfriend at the time

(sign pointing the other direction) *

He's been very manipulative and continuously lied (sign in other direction)*

Also a month after leaving says "I wonder if I've made a huge mistake." (sign)

Since he was busted beyond denial anylonger and we've stopped "being" together he's gotten very mean.
(sign in the other direction)

So, do you see what I mean?

It's not neccessarily that you read the signs wrong, but maybe she flip flops like my husband is doing too.

Hi Tess,

Is your story on here? I'm interested in reading it because it seems that we're in the same situation but at opposite ends!

Lupolady, I'm afraid I'm no good at all at this game <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I haven't posted for a day or two because I'm way off track with my plan...

As I said the monday phone call preyed on my mind a lot, I've been over at the house most days this week as I'm fixing sons car (W is out working all day). Anyway tuesday I left some flowers for her. No note.

She called at night to say thanks. We ended up chatting for 2 hours, she even went off to prepare dinner than rung back. We just chatted normally and a lot of remeniscing about the kids etc. What we'd each been doing etc. Really nice call.

Just been over again, our paths crossed when she got home so we sat and chatted again for another 2 hours. We're going out to the cinema and for dinner on saturday.

So I think plan B is blown sky high just now. I know this is probably all the wrong thing to do at this point but it's done now... I just haven't got the strength to be dark with her. I KNOW how much love I have for this woman and I KNOW she doesn't want me out of her life (I just wish she would know it too! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> )

Anyway it looks like I'm back to plan A for the meantime so I'm going to give it a few weeks and see what happens, it would be wrong right now to change again and get on with plan B.

graeme,

Did you give her a Plan B note? I'm sorry, I'm distracted, writing this "Off the cuff" and can't remember.

If you're on line now, please respond. I'm headed somewhere......

Hi I'm here.

I gave her my keys back and told her I could not live with being friends, that we are either married or not..