Signed the refi docs today. STBX had to sign the mortgage, though I'm the only one on the actual note. He'll be deeded off at the time the DV is final.

Because he and OW are normally joined at the hip, this was the first opportunity I've had in weeks to speak just to him in person.

We had a very long talk after walking out of the building. It was good overall....very Plan A. Everything from talking about our son, to talking about his friends, his family, his kidney stones, to some deeper stuff like telling him that I still care about him and him telling me he still cares about me too. He did say he thinks the DV is a good idea (he didn't elaborate), and when I asked if he and OW were going to be getting M, he said there are no plans of that, but I'm not sure it was all the definitive.

But he seems just sad...whipped, sort of. I told him to never forget that there is nothing he has done that is so bad that God can't forgive him if he asks him. I also told him that while I have no intentions of dating, that I can't promise that someday, if someone asks me out, that I won't go out with them. However, I also told him that if he ever pulls his head out of his rear (yep, unfortunately said it that way) and gets help for his drinking and OW ever out of the picture, that even if we're DV, if he asked me out, I'd definitely consider dating him again, too.

Who knows what the future holds. Right now, it felt good in one way to see him and be able to just talk to him again...even if it was just on a friendly basis. On the other hand, it was hard, because he was hurting and I was hurting because of everything that's happened and because of where we are now.

So we get ready to leave and he hesitates a minute and then says, "Can I at least have a hug?" Without hesitation, I hugged him. It was nice. But then I felt the stupid tears start to well up, and I had to step away for a minute.

I pulled it together very quickly, but he still knew. We talked a while longer about some lighter stuff and finally I said, "I really have to go" and gave a little wave and walked to my car.

When we drove out of the drive, he was ahead of me, and he waited there at the corner until I pulled up beside him, waved at me, and we drove off in our separate directions.

I think I'm stupid. The guy is an alcoholic. He's seeing another woman. Heck, he's living with her. And things have actually been much calmer without him around.

So why do I do this stuff? It's not normal for people who are getting DV to be hugging each other, is it?

LL

LL,

What's normal? You have spent 19 years of your life loving this man and giving yourself to him. How can you stop loving him in a moment?

You're not a faucet. Feelings don't just die because you are betrayed.

I'm so sorry for your situation. Don't be afraid to let yourself cry and mourn. You have spent a long time loving this man--flaws and all.

LordsLady,

I think there are two kinds of divorces. There are the kinds where you really hate the other person. As Lord Byron said, "wish them not divorced, but dead." Those people don't hug.

Then there are the divorces where you don't hate each other, but you can't continue living the way you have been. Those people hug. Those people sometimes remain friends, or on friendly terms.

I think yours is the latter kind of divorce. I think those are actually emotionally harder because you second-guess yourself over and over again.

Yet, in the end, I also think they are better for the children involved and for the ex-spouses.

The danger is when one person misinterprets hugs. Hugs often only mean "I care about you as a person. I don't want you to hurt."

For what it's worth, I think you are doing the only reasonable thing. You have to protect yourself and your son.

Lordslady---wow, you sounded like you were watching me and my STBX. We have the same kind of interaction and I feel the same way. STBX is an alcoholic, 2x betrayer and I wonder why I would ever consider comprising my peace and serenity again for life with him. It is one of the complexities of life.

You're not a faucet. Feelings don't just die because you are betrayed.
Telly is right----and Green Gables has hit the nail on the head:
The danger is when one person misinterprets hugs. Hugs often only mean "I care about you as a person. I don't want you to hurt."

Thanks all for these freeing thoughts. I needed them today!!!!!
TW

<small>[ September 25, 2004, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: tossedwave ]</small>

Thanks for your replies. I guess that's true...I loved him for many years. I guess I just think that when one decides to DV, that the feelings should be gone, or they shouldn't be DVing. But I don't think my feelings for STBX will ever be gone. Yet I also don't think staying M to him is in my or my children's best interest right now.

I do well for days. And then I hit points where every time I think of the past, or something he said, or whatever, I tear up.

And I'm guilty of wondering if the hug meant more. I need to be realistic and remember, it does probably mean, "I care about you. I don't want to hurt you." But not necessarily, "I want to stay married to you."

Thanks.

LL

{{{LL}}}}

I, too, am DV'ing an alcoholic. The last time we were face to face - in his lawyer's office last Spring - he actually broke down and told me he still loved me. As an active alcoholic, he doesn't really know the meaning of the word, IMHO. This is one of the tragedies of the disease.

In my Al-Anon mtg. this morning, the topic was Letting Go. One page we read talked about how letting go sometimes brings you closer but it sometimes points to an exit sign.

I'm recovering alone, with the help of Al-Anon, counseling, and MB, and he's still with OW heading down the path toward self-destruction. I had hoped it would turn out differently, but like you, I finally realized that staying was not in my best interest.

I am divorcing an alcoholic, too and I do not believe they can love. Steve Harley says that infidelity cannot be resolved with an active alcoholic and it took me a year after D-day to believe that. I spent 30+ years daily trying to be loved by my H. It is truly a different type of life not trying to force change---in him and in our marriage. Fortunately, I started changing over 25 years ago when I became a believer so my progress has been beneficial to my well-being and my children's.

My quest now is to learn why I needed someone like my H. The book Women Who Love Too Much has given me a glimpse into my needs and tendencies toward wanting to gain love by rescuing and caretaking.

I still struggle with ambivalence---plotting in my mind how to get him back and then wondering what for. I think what I want the most is marriage and family life and he is all I have known of that experience.

My STBX always wants to hug me goodbye when we see each other. It is not a spontaneous thing for me. Hugging him is like hugging fire to me. His hugs make me feel all over again that he just wants things to be status quo without any regard for my feelings or any changes happening as in the past.

He has told others he misses me and still loves me but he also says we are very different. Yeah--I am sober and he likes to be drunk with OW hanging around him.

I was fairing pretty well lately but we have had a lot of contact this week cause STBX had surgery on his shoulder. This past week has stirred up so many feelings and thoughts I figured was gone. I do not understand that----scared that there will never be freedom from the past.

TW

He has told others he misses me and still loves me but he also says we are very different. Yeah--I am sober and he likes to be drunk with OW hanging around him.

Yep, I believe my STBXH told some friends that earlier this year. And over the years, even when there wasn't an OW around, especially during his drinking periods I'd hear:

"You changed. You're not the same person I married."

He's right. I became a believer, about 2 years after we were M. He claims to be also, and I won't try and judge what is in his heart. I just know outwardly he doesn't show it. And that worries me.

And I also grew up. I had kids. I became a mother--not a perfect one by any means! But I quit partying. I became responsible. I didn't just get stuck at 18 years old like he seems to be.

It's unfortunate that substance addiction tears up families like it does. When I was over on GQII trying to stay the course and see my M succeed (and I still visit over there, btw), I found there aren't many people who are dealing with alcoholism over there.

And the one thing that used to upset me initially was that once someone found out my STBXH was an alcoholic who had relapsed, they didn't hold much hope for our M recovering or the A ending, unless the substances went away first. Then after a while, I had to accept that they were right.

I, too, tried for years to get STBXH to love me. It's not that I don't think he does. But I agree, an alcoholic is not capable of showing love like a normal person can. And I tried, and tried, and hoped and prayed for years (about 23 of them total), that we'd have a better M someday and that we'd be close, and he'd be the spiritual leader of the house.

Who knows. Maybe it'll still happen. But it may also be one of those prayers that for whatever reason God says "No".

LL

Lordslady---when you post, I feel like you are talking about my life.

Our married life together got better after I became a believer. I am so glad cause God did do some changing in me and it made our family life somewhat stable. I do believe that God helped me to make these changes so that my sons could grow and mature. They are fine young men now and they only sometimes drink at social events. They don't even act like their dad and his brothers and uncles even though they bear their name. I stayed married for my sons' sake and I do not regret it. Also, I understand now that I had no strength to leave my M so at a time when I was at the end of my rope with the dysfunctional marriage, the OW was used in my life as a catalyst for peace and serenity. God did all he could to save our M but STBX was not willing to do things God's way.

I do struggle with the question, "If God is all-powerful and he has saved some wretched people, why can't he work in my STBX's life?" I have a real hard time listening to some people's testimonies and how God did such huge changes. I also struggle with the whole concept that we can influence others for Christ. I shared and lived my faith for 20+ years and it feels like it had no effect whatsoever on those around me. I am so discouraged with sharing my faith. Do you ever feel that way?

What I hate about alcoholism is that it is so insiduous. I don't know about you but everything that is going wrong in my husband's life does not clearly point to the alcoholism----

LetStry, how are you doing? I know you have encouraged me often on these boards so it is good to "run" into you again.

TW

Tossedwave,

When I read yours and others' posts, I see a lot of similarities in my life, too.


As for your statement:

I am so discouraged with sharing my faith. Do you ever feel that way?

I'm not sure that I necessarily feel discouraged sharing my faith, because even though I want to see the results now, I don't know if God may be allowing me to simply plant a seed that may grow years later. I have to have hope.

But as for how God changes some peoples lives in huge ways, and then I've prayed and prayed for my STBXH to change...to turn back to (or turn to) God. I've prayed for a Christian marriage.

But even in the Bible it speaks of families being split because of belief vs. unbelief. So that tells me that I should pray and hope, but it's not a guarantee my STBX will change. He also has free will, and he may not choose to heed God's calling for him.

But yes...tough. I watch both my STBX and my daughter on their destructive paths and I wonder what the future holds. I don't understand why they're both so difficult (they're a LOT alike, and I fear my DD following her father down the path of alcoholism, too).

I'm not even sure what caused all our issues. I do believe alcoholism, or maybe just an addictive personality in general, along with a healthy dose of midlife crisis, left my STBX vulnerable to the A. Then he felt guilt, couldn't stop the A, but couldn't cope with the guilt and went back to the bottle. Now it's one big mess.

And I KNOW I wouldn't have left my STBX had it not been for the A. I am very committed to 'til death do us part' and it's difficult even now, but I believe God does provide the exception in the case of infidelity. Short of that, I would have probably stayed in the marriage, no matter how bad or good it was.

LL

Lordslady,

Hey, LL! I can totally empathize with you. My exH is mentally ill, abusive, serial cheater--and there are STILL parts of me that love him and care about him. A lot of his acting out is a part of his illness, but it's also part of his choices to not do anything about it. So, I agree with greengables. You and I (and LetsTry and tossedwave) really do love and care about our ex's, and I think when the four of us said our vows we meant them and understood at least some portion of the full meaning of what we were saying. Sadly, I do not think any one of our ex's or STBX's understood any portion of what they were vowing. Love 'em--they just don't have a clue how to love another person!

So you hug your STBX because in your heart, in your life, in your actions, you cared about him and you still do. You still wish he would choose to get healthy and place his family as a priority. You hug him because you mean, "I still care about you and do not want to hurt you, but I can't be with an addict and you won't stop." He hugs you because he knows that it does hurt you to do this but he just doesn't have it in him to put you ahead of his addiction...the only part he sees is that he hurts and you hurt.

* * * * *
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Originally posted by tossedwave:
<strong>I do struggle with the question, "If God is all-powerful and he has saved some wretched people, why can't he work in my STBX's life?" I have a real hard time listening to some people's testimonies and how God did such huge changes. I also struggle with the whole concept that we can influence others for Christ. I shared and lived my faith for 20+ years and it feels like it had no effect whatsoever on those around me. I am so discouraged with sharing my faith. Do you ever feel that way? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is 100% applicable to LL, and to all of us who are dealing with an addict really. There have been lots of times in my life that I was SO SICK of hearing about people who's spouse had a miraculous revival in their hearts, came back to God and to their spouse, and reconciled their marriage. To be completely honest, I was jealous because my spouse was choosing to not love me!!

That's when it dawned on me. God waits for US to want HIM--He doesn't force us or strike us with lightening or something, but He waits for us to want Him and then He works the miraculous recovery. Well, my exH and I are entirely separate individuals. I can choose to want God and the miracle will be worked IN ME. For me, the restoration is complete and miraculous. And God will be faithful to work in my ex's life IN HIS TIME, having life events that lead my exH to Him. However, for his entire life, my exH can refuse to come to God if he chooses to do so. Yes, it makes God (and me) sad, but he is free to do so if that's what he chooses. So far, that's what he's choosing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

But the part that is also entirely overlooked is that *I* am restored!! Don't you think that God is just THRILLED (and I mean THRILLED) that I am restored to Him and reconciled to Him? Don't you think that God sees ENORMOUS value in my choice to return to Him and be restored to His fellowship? Seriously, tossedwave (and LL and LetsTry too)--just because our ex's don't choose to have a miracle in their life, do not let YOUR mind to be limited and restricted by your ex's choices. Don't let your own faith and your own miracle be minimized because of the decision of an addicted mind.

What I mean is that in our lives...in our instances...God has had one of His extremely precious beloved children return to Him, and that is US. It IS a miracle. There can still be a miraculous restoration and recovery, and that is the restoration of US as the strong, self-assured, godly women God intended for us to be...and the recovery of US from our co-dependent, unhealthy selves to a woman who "guards her heart, for it is a wellspring of life" to all those around her.

There IS a restoration and a recovery in your testimony, tossedwave. It is YOU.


CJ

Yes, those of us married to addicts (of any kind) seem to have a harder time letting go because we recognize that much of the bad behavior is a symptom of the illness. As our own recovery leads us away from the relationship, we are left with so many "what if's?". What if they'd found recovery... had a spiritual awakening...?

Our ability to love is precious. That we love the men we married, men we recognize now as sick, suffering individuals, is evidence of our caring. Our ability to put our own needs first, and/or those of our children, is a sign of our recovery, our healing, our acceptance of God's love for us.

Wow---do I relate to all that you have ALL said. What true self-disclosure. (Having a hard time typing cause of the tears) I am taking an Interpersonal Communication course and one thing I learned in this course is that true self-disclosure can only happen if someone truly understands what you have said. And self-disclosure is health promoting. Thanks for understanding.

Faithful---I just read your other thread about restoration and you have expertly defined the most wonderful work of God. (Psalm 147:3) "He heals the brokenhearted and binds up their wounds." Very rarely do we hear about this type of undercover power that God has. It does not "appear" to be a sign of success to be healed without an outward sign and it does not appeal to our natural senses. We humans think the ultimate work of God is to save the M. BUT you are absolutely right to remind us of what a wonderful work our God has provided in our lives....RESTORATION. Thank you for bringing this to our attention---I have new reasons to praise God!!!!!!!!!!!!

TW