My husband can and does masturbate. It doesnt bother me. It doesn't take away from our intimacy. I am totally comfortable with it.

I dont think we all have to agree, but this wifes offense is really related to something deeper. As long my husband wants he can masturbate. I will do the same for me if I feel like it.

We are both okay with it. No body is going to tell me I cannot cum without the assistance of another person. I don't see anything wrong with it at all. If my husband wants sex he gets it. As long as he is pleasuring himself, I dont see where it dishonors me.

I think this wife is being too controlling and insecure. It is really none of her business what he is thinking while he masturbates. We all think. What is she really afraid of?

I think some are looking at it from a Christian point of view. I believe there is a scripture that says if we look at a women and lust after her we have committed adultery in our heart. I believe that is why Kayla Andy ( and others) said it hurts to know he does it. Sure he can think of his own wife, but often men don't. ( as some earlier posters admitted.) I also believe that sex is like food. Some is good, but we can over eat. I don't believe we need to give in to every urge we have. In fact, I believe it is harmful to us to do that. I believe that is what makes man different than the animals, we can rise above things we feel to do, and allow for others feelings too.

Some posters have pointed out that these kind of things should be solved with POJA. How can someone that agrees with the MB principals disagree with that? I mean, shouldn't we work it out with something both can be happy with?

Lastly, I believe we should avoid comments that seem to say that if someone doesn't agree with us there is something wrong with them. I believe we can state our point of view and let it stand on it's own - without resorting to those kind of comments.

I have stated what I believe. I have strong feelings about these things. However, I don't think I have the right to make others think as I do or say bad things about them if they don't agree with me.

SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Slapnuts:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by fireandice:
<strong>No, masturbation isn't nearly as good as intimate loving intercourse. That's like comparing a bologna sandwich to a T-Bone steak dinner.

But if you're starving, bologna can look pretty good.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Continuing the analogy, for many men, we need to put on a song and dance production to get our W's "in the mood".

I would prefer the steak dinner 10 times out of 10. Sometimes, though, the effort and/or fear of rejection is just too much, so I settle for the sure thing.

Plus, for most guys, the steak is on the table for 2, maybe 3 meals a week. We're just more hungry than that.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2-3 times a week??? Hell, I can't even remember what steak tastes like! But then, after 3 steak-free years, you can really start to appreciate a good cold cut... Hey!... Maybe THAT'S why they call them COLD cuts!

Long Live Oscar Mayer!

To all you pro-self-sex people:

Are you here to learn how to build your marriage, or justify independent behavior, selfish demands, annoying behaviors, etc.???

On a web site that is about building marriage relationships, there is no validation for behaviors that don't meet a POLICY OF JOINT AGREEMENT

On this web site, there can be NO legitimate justification of non-POJA behavior - as long as the person is married, and professing to want more information about how to improve the qualify of his/her marriage, encouragement of a behavior that is clearly NON-Policy of Joint Agreement to this man's wife, is not appropriate.

Hey everyone, I had to put my two cents worth into this discussion. Mostly because I think men hide in the bedroom or in front of the computer to masterbate because they are to darn lazy to come in the bed room and enjoy making love or having some sort of touchy feely sex with there wifes. My husband gets more gratification looking at porn then he does with me. This has been a big issue in our marriage and he knows this so now he has come to the point of hiding his masterbation and porn addiction from me. I know what he does. I am not stupid. He would rather masterbate then have actual sex with me. And when we do actually have intercourse he can't even get an erection. This is so sad. And I am discusted with it. He can look at naked pictures and get excited with that but not with me. Well doggarn if this is what marriage is all about then I don't need to be married. I think IF and I mean IF masterbation is a mutual enjoyment for both and isn't an all the time every darn day thing then yes it can really help when you work different shifts..... BUT for it to take presidents over actual sex then NO I don't agree with masterbation. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KaylaAndy:
To all you pro-self-sex people:</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Who, moi? I already said it was a poor substitute for the real deal. But sometimes, ya gotta take what you can get.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you here to learn how to build your marriage, or justify independent behavior, selfish demands, annoying behaviors, etc. On a web site that is about building marriage relationships, there is no validation for behaviors that don't meet a POLICY OF JOINT AGREEMENT

On this web site, there can be NO legitimate justification of non-POJA behavior - as long as the person is married, and professing to want more information about how to improve the qualify of his/her marriage, encouragement of a behavior that is clearly NON-Policy of Joint Agreement to this man's wife, is not appropriate.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, OK, IYO. But I've seen many aspects of Dr. Harley's tenets challenged here before. Some believe that POJA and/or Total Honesty can be taken to unhealthy extremes. Some don't feel that SF or physical attractiveness are real needs at all. Some feel that the need for financial support is so shallow that it shouldn't be considered a real need either.

Should people who hold these views be prohibited from expressing them here? I would hope not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mrs_Debra:
<strong>I think men hide in the bedroom or in front of the computer to masterbate because they are to darn lazy to come in the bed room and enjoy making love or having some sort of touchy feely sex with there wifes. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This may be true for your H, but it is not true of me or any man I've ever spoken with about the subject. (Yes, I have talked to friends about this stuff)

I think that like Pavlov's dogs, we men sometimes have been conditioned by rejection from our wives and it gets harder and harder to initiate intimacy with someone who turns you down.

Understandably, some times you ladies are just not in the mood.

Fine, but at the very least, another time, take responsibility for initiating yourself. Even though you may think of us as that big lug who can drive a nail through a board with two hits, we have feelings that can get hurt when our wives show no interest in us.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>He would rather masterbate then have actual sex with me. And when we do actually have intercourse he can't even get an erection. This is so sad. And I am discusted with it. He can look at naked pictures and get excited with that but not with me. Well doggarn if this is what marriage is all about then I don't need to be married. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He probably doesn't feel safe with you. I'd bet $50 that's where the ED comes from. He doesn't trust you not to stomp on his emotions.

I can tell you for sure that masturbation is not even 25% as good as actual sex.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KaylaAndy:
<strong>On this web site, there can be NO legitimate justification of non-POJA behavior.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Explain to me how turning your H down for sex follows POJA.

Oh Slapnuts....the POJA doesn't include sex silly! That's just something else...something else we are "rewarded" with....clearly that is not part of POJA...and if it were, it can only happen when it is JOINTLY wanted silly...

And it takes you two strokes to pound the nail in?? LOL

Funny how pro-self-sex people jump to conclusions. The original poster to this thread said nothing about a total lack of SF in his marriage. Only that she didn't like oral and that she objected to his fantasizing about other women while he gave himself sex - hiding it from her because he knew she didn't like it.

What part of POJA don't you understand? If there's something you really really want to do, you work with your spouse to the point where she can enthusiastically support you in doing it. If you don't have anything to offer her so that she can POJA, maybe you need to re-think what you really really want to do and weigh it in the balance with your marriage.

The original post said nothing about an SF need being neglected or avoided. Just one form was off limits and self-sex was also off limits.

Frankly, if the only way you can get an SF need met is through leather and chains, and your wife is adamantly against that kind of SF, perhaps you are not compatible and it's time to re-evaluate the marriage.

Harley doesn't say that all marriages HAVE to last - but the ones that WANT to stay married, follow a policy of joint agreement.

So kwitcherwinin!

perhaps you should have started a new thread slapnuts....LOL Geez.

Erased other humor comment...

KPPIAZZ.....so, has there been any changes in your situation at home??

Please let us know what you two have concluded...or discussed...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by bp22:
<strong>And it takes you two strokes to pound the nail in?? LOL</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nah, it takes one. I only said two so that the wives in here wouldn't think that their H's are wimps.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KaylaAndy:
<strong>Funny how pro-self-sex people jump to conclusions. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well we have too much time on our hands, perhaps if we got more sex......

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>What part of POJA don't you understand? If there's something you really really want to do, you work with your spouse to the point where she can enthusiastically support you in doing it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Masturbation to me signals a total breakdown in POJA. If you are married and masturbating, it says to me that you obviously haven't been able to POJA a sufficient sex life, so you are doing what you have to to survive.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>The original post said nothing about an SF need being neglected or avoided. Just one form was off limits and self-sex was also off limits.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why is it that women say "It is my body and I can do what I want with it, but you are not allowed to masturbate"?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Frankly, if the only way you can get an SF need met is through leather and chains, and your wife is adamantly against that kind of SF, perhaps you are not compatible and it's time to re-evaluate the marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

I agree with you completely, but if a man suggests that, he is shallow.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Slapnuts:


<strong>Why is it that women say "It is my body and I can do what I want with it, but you are not allowed to masturbate"?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>
Why is it that both men and women generalize far too much. The women's organizations who say this don't speak for all women - just their own self-centered selves!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Frankly, if the only way you can get an SF need met is through leather and chains, and your wife is adamantly against that kind of SF, perhaps you are not compatible and it's time to re-evaluate the marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I agree with you completely, but if a man suggests that, he is shallow.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, a generality. And perhaps, I could generalize further about deviant sex. That doesn't make the pain of this kind of incompatibility any less real for either party.

The truth of the matter is that this kind of mismatched couple could never be happy together. And I wish they could have found it out before they got married.

But I have seen people CHANGE GASP their love strategies. I used to be very auditorily triggered. But the language of anger and abuse make me numb to being courted by words. I've resorted to "I got to see you walk the talk - and I have to feel it in your touch" love strategy.

A SF preference that violates the moral code of the other spouse is going to be easier to change than her (or his - in the case of Hurrian Hoosier) moral code - because SF preferences are learned in adolescence and adulthood, while moral codes are usually engrained before puberty.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KaylaAndy:
<strong>The women's organizations who say this don't speak for all women - just their own self-centered selves! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not talking about women's organizations, or pro-choice people. I am talking about women who consistantly turn their H's down and then call them selfish for masturbating.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>A SF preference that violates the moral code of the other spouse is going to be easier to change than her moral code - because SF preferences are learned in adolescence and adulthood, while moral codes are usually engrained before puberty.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is not my situation, but what I'm saying is that when a woman rejects her H, I think that she has no say as to whether or not he takes care of himself.

If my W asks me to wash the laundry and I say no. I may have a legitimate reason for saying no, but IMHO, I lose the right to complain if I don't like how she folds my socks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Slapnuts:
I'm not talking about women's organizations, or pro-choice people. I am talking about women who consistantly turn their H's down and then call them selfish for masturbating.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Like I said, we have no factual information here that the original poster's wife was withholding SF. Likewise, there are men who totally gross-out their VERY sexually giving wives with what they see as selfish and juvenile masturbating without them!

Generalities will kill a good exchange of ideas on how to solve the problem!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I'm saying is that when a woman rejects her H, I think that she has no say as to whether or not he takes care of himself.

If my W asks me to wash the laundry and I say no. I may have a legitimate reason for saying no, but IMHO, I lose the right to complain if I don't like how she folds my socks.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not arguing that point. But it's a chicken and egg argument at it's foundation. Which came first, sexual immaturity and selfish demands, or withholding SF? What killed her desire? Are all women in your view, just selfish, angry, withholding b!tches? Or could there possibly a marital breakdown here that was not just her doing when it comes to sexual behaviors??

Simplistic answers, generalizations and assumptions don't solve marital problems or generate ideas and open communication.

I haven't read much of this thread, but I think if your wife doesn't want you doing it, you really should consider why she feels that way, and why you feel you need to masturbate. If she doesn't want you masturbating, then she'll have to pick up the "slack" so to speak. If she's willing, then what's the problem?

I also posted here because seeing the topic "My wife hates my masturbation" every day is getting annoying. Find an oral sex poll to post or something <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KaylaAndy:
<strong>We have no factual information here that the original poster's wife was withholding SF. Likewise, there are men who totally gross-out their VERY sexually giving wives with what they see as selfish and juvenile masturbating without them!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are correct. I jumped on this bandwagon after it had gone on that tangent.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Are all women in your view, just selfish, angry, withholding b!tches? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No.

Here is a copy/paste from another post about sex in marriage that I wrote the other day, I believe it applies here:

[POST]
1st Corinthians 7:2-6, 8-9 But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. I say this as a concession, not as a command. Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Here's one writers take on this passage, I have bolded the parts I think align with the original posters points and points I think are relevant:

1) The sexual relationship between husband and wife is an important part of marriage. A lot of folks have the impression that Christians are against sex. Wrong. We are very much for sex in the right context, in the context of marriage. As someone said, "Sex is like fire. In the fireplace, it's warm and delightful. Outside of the fireplace, it's destructive." Our text gives no indication that Paul agrees with those who say procreation, having babies, is the only valid purpose of sex. I think he sees it as a gift from God, which, as one writer put it, is intended for pleasure as well as for producing babies. Now, certainly there is much more than sex involved in a good marital relationship, but it is part of the equation. Throughout his ministry, Paul dealt with folks known as ascetics who claimed that abstaining from food, drink and sex made one a more spiritual person. Even though he is a confirmed bachelor, Paul says that is nonsense. Yes, on occasion it may be good for a couple to abstain from sexual relations to focus on their relationship with God, but in general, sexual intimacy is a normal, healthy, wonderful part of a marriage.

Do most Christians today understand this? I'm not sure. One recent survey found that those folks who are regular church attendees claim to experience more sexual satisfaction than those who are not. That's good, I think. A few years ago, however, Ann Landers received 100,000 responses to a question she asked her readers. She found that 72% of women said they "would be content just to be held close and treated tenderly and forget about the sex act." That is a remarkable statistic, especially since we live in a culture which often tries to pretend sex is the ultimate human experience. Though I think it is good that most women reject that nonsense, it is really quite sad that so many don't see sexual intimacy with their spouse as something desirable. Now, I suspect that men bear as much, if not more, responsibility for this situation. Sexual intimacy is intended to be experienced in the context of emotional intimacy and too many men are not interested in that. I do believe, however, that Christians today need to affirm what Paul says: That though there is much more to marriage than sex, sexual intimacy is an important part of that relationship.

2) A good relationship with one's spouse prevents sexual immorality. A healthy sexual relationship between husband and wife can help them be faithful to each other. That may not seem terribly romantic, but Paul sees that as a very good thing because, as we saw two weeks ago when we looked at Chapter 6, he sees immorality as a very bad thing. Paul would agree with the fellow who said, "I'm not tempted to steal a Ford Escort parked on the street because I have a Lincoln Continental at home in the garage." In other words, because of his affection for his wife, the man claimed he was not really tempted by other women. Now, certainly being married doesn't mean one is immune from sexual temptation. Many of us here can testify to that. Paul would say, though, that it is obvious that a single person is going to face much stronger temptation than someone who is married.

I will let the points above speak for themselves. I would have to agree with the original poster that emotional intimacy is much more important for a woman to really enjoy sex than for a man. This is a generalization of course and both sexes have their exceptions. I think there are some very important parts in the original scripture quoted above that I would highlight as well. In regard to "marital duty", when we see marriage as a commitment or contract under God, duty starts to make sense. While I don't like that word any more than anyone else, it does send a message that sometimes that's just what it is, a duty and not a choice. Sex is here not only for pleasure but also to keep us away from the temptations we so often face (including masturbation as in this thread!).
I also believe that joint ownership of each other's bodies enforces this ideal, and promotes God's Word in Genesis of "one flesh" in marriage, and yet at the same time, each mate owns their own body, it is a joint ownership, a sort of image of the GodHead and of Christ and His Church. The union here is what is being emphasized, and the real tragedy is that married couples in today's world seldom experience that spiritual unity under God which in turn leads to heightened physical unity (and a desire to meet each other's needs in SF even when one mate may not "feel" like it - "feel" doesn't have anything to do with it). I know Stormie Omartian wrote in her book "The Power of a Praying woman" that pastors are often very attractive to women because of their leadership qualities, ultimate submission to God, and their close relationship with God, it practically makes them irresistible in some ways, my own wife confirmed this assertion in conversation recently. If I want to have more frequent, heightened, physical/sexual relations with my wife, I need to devote more time to my relationship with Jesus Christ. I have since devoted at least 15 minutes and up to 1/2 hour each day to prayer time with Him and I can speak from personal experience that it has reaped more reward than anything else. Please understand I am not saying this devotion of spiritual time was a means to an end to get sex. These verses kind of say what I'm attempting to relay here:

2Ti 2:11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
2Ti 2:12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
2Ti 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Just as I must die to myself in spirit and accept Christ as Savior, and in turn live with Him, so I must also die to myself in marriage, that I may live in harmony with my wife. If I endure in this, we will experience a marriage rich with Blessings. If I instead choose to deny my mate (whether sexually, emotionally, physically, spiritually, etc.), then they will deny me. The last verse teaches me that God always remains faithful no matter our faithlessness in Him at times, and as we are made in His image, we must endeavor to learn from His Word and live His Word, so that when my wife or I are faithless to each other at times, we must always try and remain faithful to one another, so that we will bring the other back if we endure. I hear so often of divorces because "we just grew apart", not so, I believe the more accurate statement is "we failed to grow together", or put another way, "we did not die to each other, we each grew in selfishness" (including masturbation) until the end came. I am not trying to say we need to put our need aside 100% of the time, for we as humans simply cannot succeed in doing so at all, our sinful nature would never permit it, that is why we must constantly refresh ourselves under God. I think it's interesting that the only time Paul instructs us to deny one another is when time is set aside for fasting and prayer to God (i.e. not to deny each other for our own selfishness - but for God alone), then we in marriage must come back together so as not to be tempted by the evils around us that we are so susceptible to (masturbation being one of them).
[/POST]

While this post was not specifically about masturbation within marriage, I believe masturbation can be directly wrapped into our need to avoid temptation. For some of us, that temptation travels inward and we sin against our own bodies, for others, we look to OM or OW for the same satisfaction. Both can be equally as devastating to any marriage long term. I can say that as a BAC masturbation and lust problems is a struggling sin area for me. Christ has delivered me from pornography for about a year now and I'm still working through the masturbation issue from time to time, but I can confidently say that my wife honoring God's Word in 1st Corinthians and "die to her own needs" and letting me sometimes use her body when I'm in a weak state has helped me beyond measure. I do agree with KaylaAndy that the POJA applies here, that in the instance where the sex drive varies widely in a marriage, one mate is going to have to sometimes adopt a "duty" attitude. I say "duty" because it's quite obvious that the mate that doesn't have the drive is never going to always feel like having sex, and that's ok. Love is not a feeling, love is a willful choice to put the needs of your mate beyond your own. I've heard and read of many couples who keep waiting for those feelings of "love" to come back before taking additional steps, only to divorce a short time later. Love is the willful choice to move beyond our feelings of the moment and choose to do with our mate what we, frankly, don't at all feel like doing. Choosing to love will create the missing feelings over time, not the other way around. It seems that today's society (not you folks, you all seem very well versed in this stuff already!) is all about our emotions and how we feel when it comes to relationships, not good things to base something on at all. Emotions are temporary, they come and go, often for days, weeks, even years at a time. What a roller coaster ride that would be if that is what a marriage is based upon. Ah well, enough rambling for now...