I guess I will add my thoughts on this issue:
While I feel there is nothing wrong with "Ming", be it if you are a man or woman, I do feel when it takes the place of a willing partner it becomes a big issue.

My S would M 3-4 times posssibly more a week but would not be intimate with me for months. When I discussed the this with him he found "NO problem" with this behavior which I thought was odd seeing as if a woman would neglect her mate for a battery operated device I am sure there would be a problem. So it was like he was having an A with his hand. I tried discussing that we agreed for him not to hide the fact but at least tell me and that we needed to find a basis as to why he would prefer that to his mate. He did not use porn.

Also, my mate had a sever problem with premature E, but not when he was Ming, I never used that against him and said we could work on it together, he just would not make it a priority therefore remaining in the came cycle. When we did have sex he loved it, and then look depressed because he "E" within 2 minutes or less.

I never put him down or made him feel inadequate about anything sexually we did, but after 3 years of going through this, it really broke my heart that he started cheating on me in Oct/2002, and moved out, blaming me for him cheating and that nothing ever made me happy.

Kayla-

PLEASE! If you are telling all of adults at Marriage Builders you have never touched yourself, then there are three things we can discern from that:

#1- You think we are all stupid
#2- You are not being honest
#3- Your Significant other doesn't think you have some annoying habits of your own.

The POJA and the Rule of Protection DO in fact matter. But here are the facts mam...Masturbating is NOT-NOT-NOT-NOT cheating. It is in fact healthy.

Sorry Kayla...You are wrong

I think that you may just be a normal male human, I don't understand why male humans were designed with a higher sex drive than females but that is the way it seems to be, too much emphasis has been made out of who is getting how much and in what position and how often, it is a personal thing between the two of you so forget what others are doing or not doing, a viagra for women should have been invented before the male version to close the gap between our sex drives.If your wife is uncomfortable with it something has to be done, no part of our lives should make our spouse uncomfortable, nothing should be hidden and no lies told, she needs you to discuss the topic in more detail, reasure her that it does not reflect on her as a wife/partner/mate. If you are at it constantly and have a house full of pornograpy and you spend all your time at nudey bars and one night stands I would advise her to pack her back OR YOURS but I think discussion could sort this out for you, maybe even a chat with a Dr could help her understand the male body more? good luck.

Thankyou rlyhurtin,
Yours was the only post I missed reading before I had posted my comment, you were rather blunt but I also took a long way around, do you agree that if it dosn't consist of a house full of porn, topless bars, feeling up the office girl and it dosn't intrude on family activites it shouldn't be a problem, but we must respect his W, maybe she had a protected childhood and the moral/religous or go blind thing was how she was raised?

Interesting thread. My thoughts on the subeject:

When I was younger, solitary masturbation (done alone, and without the approval or knowledge of your partner) and the pornography used to fuel it, never bothered me. It was something men - all men, including those I had a sexual relationship with - needed. I didn't fully understand it - pleasuring myself was about as appealing to me as a romantic dinner for one at the most expensive hotel in town - but I wasn't about to make a fuss or make him feel guilty for doing it.

However, my H's masturbation DID have a direct effect on our sex life.

I like to feel "in sync" sexually... when I go to bed at the end of the day and WANT sex, I'd like my H to WANT sex too. But what if he just got out of a very... um... satisfying... shower and wasn't interested? Or if he was interested, it was like beating a very tired horse to the finish line? And what about the flip side of the coin - those days when he just didn't have a chance to take care of himself so his reactions were faster and more intense?

I was at a disadvantage. I didn't know IF I should initiate, never mind WHEN. I didn't know HOW to have sex with him - I could do the SAME thing three times and get three totally different responses! Believe it or not, for a very long time I thought he didn't like BJ's (I couldn't believe it either) because he stopped me the first time I tried - it was too intense for him.

What did he need from me? I felt like I was inadequate. Not because I wasn't willing... but because I couldn't intuit what he needed. Meanwhile, H is looking at Sexpot Barbie, getting off on his own, and telling me, this is "normal" and had nothing to do with me, or "us". I was not his sexual *partner*, I was an OPTION on his sexual menu, competing with a magazine, computer porn, or a hot shower. Without even realizing it, I responded accordingly. More and more, I climbed into bed exhausted from a day of job and kids and cooking and cleaning, and thought, 'you don't need ME. do it yourself now, too'

If you asked me, at the time, I never would have blamed my growing indifference on masturbation because I believed so firmly that it was a normal part of all relationships. It was my H who picked up on it. He read an article about the damaging effects of porn and masturbation and he told me about it. It made sense. So he stopped (what the heck, if it didn't give results he could always go back, eh?) and put his sexual needs in MY hands.

I have to tell you, it is AWESOME! I know what he needs! I UNDERSTAND! I am in tune with him and him with me, and I do all I can to satisfy him. I don't say my H will NEVER pleasure himself again - lets be practical, I don't expect him to suffer discomfort if I am genuinely indisposed or unavailable - but as a day to day thing, M is off the menu.

You see, KaylaAndy is right. Yes, it is YOUR body, and sexual release is normal and needed, and masturbation IS easier than working on your relationship to achieve mutual SF. But as she said, this is a Marriage BUILDERS website. If you TRULY live by MB principles and WANT to make your partner happy, and she wants to make YOU happy too... then sexual activity outside the partnership is a MAJOR impediment.

I love my wife. The insight she brings to this discussion comes from our relationship, which is the same place my insight comes from.

I didn't enter this relationship with the understanding of how damaging sex out of bounds can be, in any form. When I was a youth, and discovered masturbation, I asked my father about it; and he said, "It's ok, as long as you don't do it too much."

"Too much" was never defined. Did that mean twice a year; twice a month, or twice an hour?

So what's at the core of this issue? If you ask me, Slappy has it in his signature line: "Connection". If we truly want to find the "rainbow connection" and be the lovers we dream of, and have the marriages we desire with all our hearts, then we have to both set and accept limits and boundaries. Masturbation, just like pornography, can become compulsive and obsessive. The only protection is setting limits and boundaries, which you could call a "covenant relationship". Or, a Policy of Joint Agreement.

I like to think of sex as a fire, which can either consume, or purify. The difference between whether it consumes or purifies depends on whether it's kept inside or outside the furnace. Inside the furnace, it warms the house. Outside the furnace, it burns the house down. So what's our policy of joint agreement on masturbation? It's an acceptable part of our lovemaking and foreplay. It's something we share with each other. It's something I'm happy to both give and receive.

I'm sorry that I never knew how damaging it is, to developing a real connection in a marriage, to take matters into my own hands and out of her hands where I belong. My wife is quite capable of making me happy, and satisfying me far more than I could ever satisfy myself. If I lay my right to satisfy myself on the altar, I am rewarded 100-fold.

My reality is this: self-sex is cheating... on myself, and denies me the option for a truly connected sexual relationship and close intimate bond with the woman in my life.

End of story.

I think it comes down to the issue of integrity. If I do not keep my own integrity then when I enter the relationship I am already at a disadvantage to make a real connection. The connection I seek starts with keeping my own integrity. Without a foundation of integrity there is not hope for true intimacy and there will be only strife. These are the things my father never told me because my father didn't know. At some point I have to accept that just because Dad didn't know it doesn't mean I do not have a responsibility to learn it.

I have lived on both sides of this issue. My life is much happier when I keep my integrity.

Does Kayla have annoying behaviors? sure. This mastrubation issue is not however simply an annoying behavior. It is core and foundational because it deals with basic integrity. In that regard Kayla has her act together and anyone who says otherwise can answer to me. I live with her. I know. She is not wrong on this she is right on the money. Whatever other troubles we may have this part of our relationship works and we see eye to eye on it. We both keep the same standard and save ourselves for each other. I find both strength and comfort in this. It is strength to my mind and rest to my soul. My pitable father never had it so good.

One thing I can assure you. When my son asks me about this as no doubt one day he will. He will not get the same sort of double-speak nonsense I got from my father. He will get the truth. He will hear that integrity is the foundation of a good relationship and that integrity starts with himself and keeping himself chaste in thought and action and reserving himself for his future wife alone. I will also tell him that it's worth it to do so at whatever sacrafice he may feel it to be. if he has to separate himself from sociality that does not hold this standard then he is better off picking friends who are people of integrity and chaste than trying to rationalize and justify himself with the insane and the foolish people who deny truth when they hear it. Such friends are an encumberance to living joyfully and he is better off without them. There are people of integrity in this world and he is worth associating with them and keeping himself pure. This is the very foundation of happiness. Ignoring or denying it is the foundation of unhappiness. This is one punch I will not pull.

It has never hurt me to bridle my passions and restrain my sexual urges and keep the fire within the furnace. It has never failed to harm me and others when I have not. This thing is as certain as the sun rising in the morning. Consequences for violating these boundaries are completely predictable. Honoring self integrity is the path to happiness and fulfillment and dishonoring self integrity is the path to despair and heartbreak. As I said. I've known both sides of this. I've "done the research" and now I'll spend the rest of my life making the amends. Some things I cannot make amends for. The lost time in our early marriage where had I but followed this present path we might have had emotional security and made a happier family and the children that might have come to us to bless our home.

Much of the joy we might have had in our lives is forever lost and all I can do is go forward from this point with resolve to learn from the mistakes of the past and not repeat the same patterns that ruined our lives in the past. I wasted much of my strength as a man in this lost and lonely way and gained nothing for it. I will not now waste any more of the present strength or strength I may be given in the future. I owe myself and my wife and my son this fidelity and with God's help I shall keep this vow. I was never given this fidelity from my father and suffered much strife and grief and loss for it. but I shall give it to my son and to my posterity.

take what helps and leave the rest.

<small>[ January 15, 2003, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: Kasey1 ]</small>

oops....double post...too many buttons.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> where is the delete option? crap I can't delete this can I. ick <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Hey? Why can't I delete my own posts?!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<small>[ January 15, 2003, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: Kasey1 ]</small>

Kasey, well said... in fact, it was worth saying twice. ;-)

I think that as long as masterbation is not taking the place of a married couple's sex life it is ok. We may be married to our spouces, but we do not "own" them. You can not control what another person thinks about has fantasies about. We are individuals! I would rather my h let his little imagination run wild while his in the men's room at work at 3 am as long as it stays there in the bathroom, then have him watch porn or say things that he knows repulse me in the bedroom. As long as that is as far as it goes, who cares? Don't get me wrong, I am aganist my h watching porn, going to strip bars or drooling over other women...but I do not own his mind. He can think whatever he wants as long as he doesn't do...and I think we have a good understanding about this. My h does occasionally tell me that he masterbates on nights where we got hot and heavy before he left for work and couldn't "finish".....he always says he thought about me...I'd like to think that is true...but even if he was thinking about Pam Anderson...thats his perogative and I am not here to control him, only to love him and for him to love me.
melissa