IsIt2Late:

She stays out all hours of the night, she steals from you, she refuses to return your stolen cell phone, she has unprotected sex, she drinks alcohol, she refuses to do good in school, she cuts herself, and we really don't know if this is all.

Yes, a good share of this is true. About the phone, shortly after she started taking it, I basically told her it was hers, but that if I call she'd better answer it. She's only not answered once or twice. Although she doesn't deserve a phone, it does ease my nerves because I can usually get ahold of her now. The unprotected sex, as bad as that is, seems to be par for the course with many teenagers. I'm not sure she's any worse than others.

The refusing to do good in school is more of a giving up on herself once she gets behind. It's been there since day one. She has never been formally diagnosed with a learning disability because she scores high on IQ tests and is very verbally skilled. But I truly DO believe she has a LD. We had her at Sylvan for almost 6 months once and she did try, and her scores leaving were lower than her scores when she started. She does not learn well in a traditional setting.

Cutting--sticking her in a group home won't necessarily curb it. It can be done with something as simple as a broken ink pen. She'd have to have 24-hour supervision to keep her from it if she really wants to, and the only place she'll get that is in a mental hospital (which her insurance won't pay because she's not suicidal). A very frustrating catch-22.

I still think (and 2x4 me if necessary) that she is still better off at home. She might be slightly safer in a group home--depends on which one she was in. But they aren't nearly as interested in her future as I am. Human services just wants to keep their name out of the headlines.

There may be some homes that are okay, but many aren't. And if she went to a home it would be by way of a CINA. I would temporarily hand over my rights to the state and they could do whatever they wanted with her, potentially until she was 18. She might never make it back home again. She's my baby, and I am not ready to do that.

In my opinion, she is screaming for someone to give her some limits, because she has absolutely none.

Whether this is what her actions are screaming, I don't know. But I believe you are 100% correct that this is what she needs. Somewhere I'm going to have to find some energy. But I am going to try, little by little, to set these. I told both kids I'm planning a New Year's Revolution. It may be tiny at first, but I really am serious.

LH,

I’m curious, is there any consequence for her missing curfew?

In all honesty--very few. This is what I need to work on as a part of my New Year's Revolution. I really liked the "lock her out" idea, except that it is dangerously cold here right now. For example, the wind chill has been below zero all day and will be close to 20-below tonight. I won't lock her out and take a chance of something happening to her in the cold. If it were summer, that might be different. So I need a different idea, but I don't want to take the cell because then I can't get ahold of HER and it jangles my nerves.

To more of your questions: Yes, I've met with the school counselors. We just had conferences at the end of November and I've called them once since then. And no, I truly don't believe she's doing drugs. Her rebellion isn't a new thing. She's been rebellious since her first breath. And her difficulty in school isn't new either. It's just that once she hit her teens, it's been much worse and far harder to deal with.

And the plan for getting her caught back up is actually just a plan to get her a diploma -- the alternative school. Tutoring at Sylvan a few years ago wasn't successful. It only left her frustrated and us grumpy because of all the $ spent.

Faith,

but I suspect she is already feeling abandoned by your spouse and her father.

While she and I were always very close when she was younger, her father doted on her and basically ignored his son. In her "bad girl" attitude, her comments are things like, "I don't need Dad!" but in reality, I think what he did hurt her a great deal.

As for FMLA, not an option. I am changing jobs in February to something that once I get through the first several months, should be a better position than what I now have as it won't require travel and this one does. BUT...I have a lot to get done before I leave my company in February. Jan-Feb is our busy time--I'm an accountant and it's year-end for our communities we manage. I am taking next week off as vacation but I can't afford to take any more time off before the job change. I am taking a job with one of our clients, and the last thing I need to do is screw up now.

Elan,

My kids tried the "You are too strict," or "So and So's Mom lets them

Hear that multiple times per week.

My daughter has a VERY difficult time with logic and analysis, so math is nearly impossible. But I told her today that over Christmas break I want to sit down with her briefly and go over our budget. I don't expect her to understand it--we need to start small. But she hasn't totally refused to do it. We'll see how it goes.

And as for your book suggestion, I am going to go through all my active threads on here while I'm off and write down all the book suggestions I've had and see what my library has to offer.

Thanks all of you for your continued suggestions, support, and all!!

LL

Now I feel horrible again...

It is just hard to raise a rebellious child alone. Since your H is alcoholic, that means you have really always had to do raise her alone.

I just believe that it is human nature to take as much as we can get away with. Since you are so kind & giving, your daughter seems to really be taking as much as she can. It just seems that since you made the decision to get away from a drunk, abusive, adulterous man, you seem to have a lot of guilt which makes you want to make up for it by catering to your child.

I am sorry to be harsh, but it just is hard for me to see such a sweet woman being taken advantage of.

It is just hard to raise a rebellious child alone. Since your H is alcoholic, that means you have really always had to do raise her alone.

This is absolutely true--not just because of his alcohol use getting in the way but just because he sees parenting as a mother's job.

On one hand, it's been very exhausting and I am mentally spent right now. On the other hand, it probably really helped me when he left that I had always been responsible. Having to go through the pain of losing my H was tough enough. At least I didn't have to adjust to being the only parent, too.

The only difference I can see is in the area of transportation. He did at least help cart the kids places if he was around. Now it is 100% me and I'm struggling there.

You may be onto something with the guilt thing. I feel in a way like I failed my husband. I don't want to fail my kids, too, and in my eyes giving up on her and handing her to the State is giving up.

LL

I was walked on all last week by that daughter of mine. Last night (Christmas Eve) she left the house at 10:30 (and yes, I was the idiot who allowed it, because she wanted to see her friends for an hour). The hour turned into something past 2am. I just SO didn't want to fight on Christmas Eve.

So this morning went well. Kids were happy with Christmas. Had I not had a pounding migraine that wouldn't go away, it would have been darned near perfect.

My daughter spent the afternoon and evening with her boyfriend and he had her home at a decent hour, and I spent a good share of the afternoon in bed getting over my headache. So all was appearing well by tonight. Or so I thought...

I walked into the kitchen at 12:15am to find my daughter with her coat on. Seemed odd, so I asked her. "Going to hang out with my friends", she says.

"No you're not, at 12:15!" I say.

From there, imagine just about every curse word you can think of and imagine them either being spewed at me or me actually being called them.

All this as I remained as calm as I could on the outside--admittedly with my voice raised (and my insides just about to explode! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> ). And I repeated over and over to her that she was NOT going out, that I was the parent and that she was NOT 18 yet.

She told me I was just trying to keep her from having fun and that if she was forced to stay home (apparently she's having some issues with her boyfriend or something, because she is very moody today) she'd slit her wrists.

Now this is not a comment to be taken lightly, especially with a girl who has repeatedly done surface cutting on her arms. But she's always done that in secret, not after threats. So I'm banking that tonight was just a threat.

At any rate...with this long, long post I am just announcing that I set a limit for her and held to it. It was really tough, especially when I was being verbally slammed to the floor. I wanted to just scream, "GET OUT!". But I didn't.

She eventually called her girlfriend and told her she couldn't go out. I calmly thanked her. She stormed off, screamed that she was NOT going to Christmas at her grandparents tomorrow morning, and slammed her bedroom door.

------------------------------------------------
What to do from here I"m not sure. I do imagine the task to get her to the grandparents (my ex-inlaws) will be almost impossible, but I really want to go and they really want to see their granddaughter.

And I'm almost afraid to go to sleep for fear she'll call someone and split tonight and I won't hear her.

But I can't let her run my life.

LL

LL,

I was going to go to bed, I swear! But now that I've read your post, I have to at least respond.

As you know, your DD and my S are in the same kind of boat. My son has ADHD and is not a good "traditional" learner, even though his IQ is genius. He too is impulsive, immature, and rebellious by nature. He is my favorite son! If you remember, I discovered not too long ago that he was hanging out with some pretty wild, rough friends, and he ran away when I told him he couldn't continue hanging with them.

Well, here's what I've learned. Like you, I'm not great at this, but this seems to be working. Since I virtually stopped him from seeing his so-called friends, only three have made any effort to contact him, so in his own eyes, only three were "real" friends! Of the three who contacted him, one was a runaway who kept leaving her parents in the middle of the night and he'd hide her at our house--one is an okay kid who smokes NORMAL cigs but not the other kind--and one is a girl who has a crush on him. All three kids (and my son) have tried the "come and go all hours of the night" routine...sneaking in and out and hiding...calling all hours of the day and night. You understand this, right?

With these three friends, I laid down rules for him and my son kept trying to break them! For the runaway girl, I kept calling her parents or the police. This pissed the two kids off mightily, but I told them they could see each other illegally and involve jail for one of them, -OR- they could just start dealing with some of these rules and see each other righteously! Eventually (after about a month of trying different [censored]), my son came to see on his own that this girl was not just IN trouble but troubled, so on his own, he decided he didn't need that in his life.

With the other two, they are fairly decent kids with uninvolved parents--the one boy likes to come over here and hang all the time, and the girl just has a crush on my S and will call or show up at any hour that she thinks of him! Anyway, with those two and his best friend, they are pretty good friends and I don't half mind them, so I said he could have them over, but no phone calls between midnight and 7am, and no friends coming or going between 11pm and 8am! Futhermore, although I would accept a knock on the door at 8am, that his friends could not come over and "hang" until he had done his daily chores and applied for jobs. He had to wake up by 9am, do some sort of productive work between 9am and 4pm, and THEN he earned the priviledge of having "hang time" with his buddies.

Sooooo, of course they tried everything! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I told him it was HIS responsibility to tell his friends NO ("No, I can't talk now. You can call between ...." or "No, I can't go out or you can't come over now. You can come between ...") but he didn't. So then I gave him the option to tell them no himself or I would tell them--and he didn't. Then of course when *I* said no, he had a fit...but I stuck with it. Then, they tried sneaking in late night phone calls--and I took the phone off the hook for a week from midnight to 7am!! Then, they tried "Mom, ABC just finished visiting her friend one block away. Can she come over just to say hi?" at 12:30 at night. NO! "Can I walk her home?" Is it past 11pm?? Then NO! I slept with my bedroom door open to hear any front or back doors sneaking; if I did hear ANYTHING at any door, I called the police; and if someone did knock on the door, I woke up my son and drug him out of bed so that HE had to deal with getting no sleep!

Eventually he somewhat got the message. It's being consistent. Set a rule and stick with it no matter how much they pitch a fit or ask for an excuse "just this once." Nope, just STICK WITH IT!

The other thing that seems to help is being willing to consider renegotiate a rule if it is reasonable to renegotiate. I'll give you an example. My original rule was that my son had to be productive from 10am to 5pm, and he asked if I would consider changing it to 9am to 4pm since lots of his friends get off school near 4pm and could ride the bus over... I gave it thought and agreed to his request because he made a respectful request, not a demand; because he kept the number of productive hours and just adjusted it; because he had a solution to his dilemna not just a complaint; and because it was reasonable for him to feel like he had a voice in his work time! I think this helped him feel like he could HAVE friend-time, he just needed to earn it -AND- that he could have some say in his own life.

Chick, make your rules and stick with them. Don't "react" and don't change them every day. My son doesn't get money very well either, so when he does earn money, I figure out for him that his earnings are equal to 3 12-pks of coke and 5 meals at McD's--so now I will not buy him the next 2 12-pks or the next 4 meals at McD's. He can blow all his money if he wants to, but the next 4 times we go to McD I do not buy for him no matter HOW MUCH he complains. Yep--did that ONE TIME and he caught on quick!!! It's not a lack of math skills, it's a lack of connecting math to money to something they understand and WANT. If they want something and don't have the money and have to go without, THEY DO LEARN!

Chin up, mom. Be brave. You are not depriving your DD of having "fun." You are setting your house with your boundaries and rules, and you are allowing her to fully be herself within the limits of those rules. Pick one or two rules, STICK WITH IT, and don't back down no matter what.

((((((((((lordslady)))))))))))

Hope your migrane feels better. I'll tell you about MY day another time! OY!


CJ

Excellent, LL,

Finally you have put your foot down...it was difficult at first - I bet - but it will get easier from now on.

You have to be the one who is in charge in your relationship with your daughter. This is the ONLY way how you will teach her to be successful in life. This is how you show your love for her and -believe me- in ten years she will come back to you and thank you for being tough.

Now keep up the good work...set more limits. And do "reverse speak" with her. She is threatening to harm herself, remove yourself from being her audience. She is threatening not to go to her grandparents...too bad for her, she's missing the party. If you show her that she can't rule you, these threats loose their power very fast.

I'm proud of you, LL...now don't retreat from your position of strenght, stay right there!

Win some; lose some...

I was sitting in my bedroom on the computer at 1:20am last night and I heard a car drive up, heard my front door open and shut, and my daughter had snuck out with her friend Dani before I could stop her.

This is taking things to yet a higher level, because generally she does not sneak out late at night.

I immediately called her cell phone and told her I wanted her home. She told me she was staying the night with Dani. I told her I was hanging up and was making other calls then.

I called the cops. Only thing they can do is report her as a runaway. You could tell the cop was not in the mood to report her, since I knew who she was with. He told me she was out of control and that she didn't respect me (hello...already know that!). Generally the cops that stop at my house have been very nice and have tried to help. I wasn't too impressed with this guy. I had that gut feeling that he was just thinking, "Yeah, loser mom... kid running wild." He said I could try calling the juvenile court today, and that kids like her usually end up getting pregnant (again, don't just rub it in...give me some good ideas here?!)

I didn't turn her in as a runaway. She did come home this morning.

I HAVE placed a call to the person who put her on "informal probation" last August. She's still on it, and according to the document she signed, one of the items she's supposed to follow is:

"Obey the rules and requirements of your parent, guardian or custodian"

If this person actually calls me back (semi-doubtful), I am going to plead and beg for them NOT to take her from her home but to please offer me some help her in keeping her and teaching her limits.

I will tell them, I am 100% single-parenting with no help from her father. I want to know if they can put her on a more "formal" probation, with curfews that she has to keep and a probation officer that she has to check in with.

To me, it seems cheaper for the State than taking her away and putting her in a group home.

But I will tell anyone who reads this, I am terrified that the group home will be what they ultimately choose...

And that by opening up this can of worms by calling the State, not only will my daughter be taken from me, but my house itself will be lost (because I can't afford to lose XH's child support AND pay $600-700/month to the state to support her in some home I don't even want her in).

I just don't know what else to do. I'm trying to set rules. I'm just really afraid I'm making a big mistake.

LL

Dear LL,

sorry to hear these new (old) developments.

She disobeyed you again...what was it like this morning when she returned. Did you welcome her back or did you give her a really hard time ?

What are the consequences for her outrageous behavior last night? My ideas would be: no luxurious food (bare essentials), no money, no chauffeuring her around, no TV AND a stern lecture about how to treat one's mother (respect, obedience, love). She is putting her feet under your table, she is eating your food, you are the one who pays for her clothes and movie tickets. She disobeys you and all of the above allowances are cancelled. End of story.

How about this: she is grounded. House arrest. If she chooses to disobey you again: group home and turning her over to the state. Send her there because she has to learn to obey an authority. She knows that you are afraid of that step and she is playing you.

Unfortunately you are not making any progress with her. As adults we all have to live by certain rules of society. Your daughter is not learning that at home. I don't think it is a mistake to report to the state that she is not sticking to the rules of her probation.

LL, do not waiver from your course of action. Send a clear signal to your daughter.

All the best,

I guess I neither welcomed her back with open arms nor gave her a really hard time. When I originally heard her come home, it was early and I was exhausted and not ready to get up, as I'm on vacation this week trying to do things around here. So I opened her bedroom door, looked at her and said, "hmmmm..", and closed it and walked back to my bed.

I did try to talk with her later about things. I tried to be careful not to yell or lose my temper(because I've been informed by many people that when I do that, I lose all credibility and respect and it's something I used to do a lot of). I offered to let her see the draft of the 2005 New Year's Revolution I told her was coming. She chose not to read it. (And yes, it does address curfews as well as other things, and specifies that if you're an adult living in my house (my son, when back from college) and you choose not to follow the rules, you can choose a different place to live.

And if you are yet a minor (my daughter) and you choose to not follow the rules, the State will eventually find you a different place to live, and their rules will be much more strict than mine.

What to take away from her is an issue. She really has nothing that she cares that much about, other than her freedom. Many of her clothes come from Goodwill, because she chooses to have her own style, instead of the cookie-cutter mall look. She's not concerned about the latest fashion trend.

The cell phone is probably second on her "important items" list, after freedom. I could easily have it shut off, but I admit for personally selfish reasons I've let her keep it. When she does disobey and is out past curfew, when she has the phone, she nearly always answers it. It's my way of knowing at least she's still okay. If she doesn't have it, I don't hear from her at all and worry myself sick.

The computer would be third. It's my computer--in my bedroom. Hers has no internet access, so she doesn't use it anymore. I am still planning on implementing the locked bedroom door to my room. I just only have one key. I want to get several more made and stash them around the property, in case I lock myself out. Didn't get out to get that done yet. Once I can lock the door, she really has access to nothing of mine.

As for TV, we have it but rarely does anyone watch it. I've considered dropping DirecTV, but then that leaves me zero to watch. Rabbit ears have never worked well in this house.

She doesn't get a formal allowance because I'm from the old school where I think kids need to earn them, and she refuses to do things to earn it. I do give her $ from time to time. I will try and stop that.

Keeping her under house arrest seems impossible. I can't be here 100% of the time. True, I am on vacation this week so am around more than normal. But starting next week, I'm back at work again. She gets home from school at noon. I don't get home until 7pm or after.

Okay, so first...the probation officer I left the message with didn't return my call. This is par for the course, since she's not on a formal "report in at a certain time" probation. No one really wants to deal with her because she's slippery and has never been caught and convicted of anything. This is what I struggle with. I ask for help in trying to prevent her from being taken (because there are other things that could be done first, like a formal probation with curfews). But either no one returns my call, or I get told to call this # and then that # finally yet another #.

It's very frustrating. I can see how parents just get frustrated,throw their hands up and either give up and let them run, or they just hand them over to the State completely. It is almost impossible to get some kind of intermediate intervention.

I could write an essay on what's wrong with "the system" where it comes either to kids who haven't been caught doing anything bad, or kids whose parents are not on welfare. (If I was on welfare, I'd have it made. I'd get a housing subsidy, my son would get all kinds of grants for college instead of qualifying for nothing because he's a middle-class white male, and if my daughter ended up in the State's care, I'd pay nothing.... And I'd get to set home on my duff to boot!)

Can you see I'm frustrated with how thing work? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I work. I make a decent income for someone with an AA degree and have worked very hard to get where I am. I live in cookie-cutter suburban home that I pay $1,030 a month for, inclusive of taxes and insurance. I drive a 1998 car with 100,000 miles on it that is fully paid for.

I really like it here. It is my little sanctuary in a neighborhood where I know my neighbors because all our houses were built around the same time, and they like me. I have two large dogs who also like it here, who mean the world to me, and who have kept me company when I would otherwise be sleeping in a lonely, cold bed. I don't want to lose all this because of having to give up a third of my monthly income to subsidize all those who pay nothing to have their kids in group homes!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

And say I sell the house. There is only one apartment complex anywhere near here that I'm aware of that will allow two large dogs. They are built on a large plot of land with walking paths. They charge $50/month extra, though for dogs. And for a 2-br they charge around $800/month (that's before the dog fee). It's not a new complex--needs refurbishing. But it has a very relaxed pet policy which no others have.

If I got rid of the house, by the time I lose the tax deduction I get for being able to itemize, I'd be at about the same place I am now.
Sure, there are apartments nearer downtown that I could get for maybe $650/month for an older two bedroom. I couldn't take the dogs. If they allow any pets, it's one cat or sometimes one small (under 25lb) dog. The walls would be ugly and white; the cabinet doors would be warped; the countertops would probably be olive or gold as would the appliances. It would be mentally really depressing...giving up everything I've worked so darned hard for over the last 20 years to come home from work every night to that--and being without my daughter or my dogs.

And it's not like it would be temporary. If I sell this house, I'll never get this good a deal again (nor will I ever be able to save up a down payment big enough to afford to buy a house on my income).

I will guarantee I would be very resentful and very angry if I'm stuck renting for the rest of my life. I've thought this through a lot. I've tried to tell myself that it would be okay if God took everything from me and all I had was some ratty efficiency in the inner city for $400/month. All I need is food, shelter, and clothing. Job lost everything--his kids, his wealth, his health.

But in reality, I am struggling with my wants. I want my daughter home. I don't want to give her up. And if I do, it also confirms that I, the woman who gave her birth and have given my last 15 years to trying to do my best for her, suck at motherhood. That to follow my dismal failure as a wife.

I don't want to give up my dogs. They love me, unconditionally. 'nuff said.

I don't want to give up my home. I've already lost my husband to another woman. I may lost my daughter to the State. I'm tired of losing things.

----------------------------------------------
So how do I just let go of my baby to some system that I don't believe will do right by her, and how do I make ends meet for the next 2.5 years (until she's 18) on $1,150 less per month? (The child support I'd lose from XH plus the expected cost I'd pay the state from my income to support her?)

Perhaps I'm just venting here. I don't know what the answer is. The answer is to turn back the clock about 10 years, really pursue the ADHD treatments, spend more time with the kids and less time trying to keep the peace with my husband and trying to get him to love me. Take time to recognize that my daughter and her brother are not alike, and just because he is functioning well in this environment doesn't mean she is.

But hindsight is 20/20.

LL

Dear LL:

to summarize your last post, it sounds like there are a lot of reasons, why you are choosing not to change anything about your current living situation.

The points tha jump out at me are these:
You dream of a better relationship with your daughter, but you don't have a plan to get there. Isn't this like everything in life...you choose certain actions and they influence the people around you.

The number ONE thing you have to do in your life right now this minute is set the priority. What is most important to you...sounds to me it is fixing the relationship with your daughter.

Keeping the house is another issue down the line. Keeping the dogs is important, but not as much as your daughter.

You have excuses, why you are not implementing certain steps. E.g. locking the bedroom door...do not hide keys around the house (you and I know that daughter will find them). Get the one key and hang it on a chain around your neck for heaven's sake if you have to. But don't leave your daughter access to the computer and your clothes and then complain when she is ruining them. Thionk proactively. Think the child support issue through to the last detail. You need it to pay the mortgage, but do you have to live with daily abuse from your daughter, just to keep the house?

You are working hard, you are trying to have a loving relationship with your daughter and you have just gone through a painful divorce. Your daughter does not support you. How about she is taking care of mom, to heal mom's broken heart instead of hurting you more. Did you ever ask her to be kind and loving to you in this hard time in your life? But most likely a rebellious uncaring teenager will just blow you off.

LL, you do not need this war with your daughter every day. You need to come up with a plan how to change this. Implement it and stick to it.

The only language that these out of control teenagers understand is tough love. That's it. You need to find a way to control her, maybe the threat of turning her over to the state will work, IF she feels that you will really go that way. Right now she knows that you are hesitant to loose child support. The threat is just emty words for her right now.

LL, please find a counsellor to help you in this tough time. You need to talk it over with a professional. You need to address your feelings of guilt that you have towards your daughter and your feelings of failure as a mother and wife.

(((LL)))

My heart goes out to you, LL. Please implement a plan and put your foot down. o.k.?

Hi LL!!

I am now giving you a standing ovation!! You have begun to give your daughter the limits she so desperately needs.

I have read all of your concerns about living elsewhere, etc., and I do understand. But please remember that God already has a plan to resolve all of your concerns. For now, I suggest that you stop worrying about what might happen if you stop child support, etc.

Take things one step at a time. I suggest you try to remember that you love your daughter so much that you are willing to give up your home, your dogs, your child support, whatever it takes to help her learn that responsible people must have limits. So far, she is the one who has been holding all the cards with the knowledge that you want to have her home more than you want her to behave. When she finally believes that you want to teach her more than you want to be her friend, I think you will start to see a dramatic change.

One thing is very telling: When you really started enforcing limits, she went right to the threat of slitting her wrists. A good reply might have been, "I cannot stop you and will not pretend that I can, but if you do that, I will do what I can to stop the bleeding and call an ambulance."

LL, YOU CAN DO THIS!! I do want to tell you one thing: Someday, years from now, you will finally get to the destination where God is sending you. You will then look back and thank God that you went through this so you can become who God wants you to be.

By the way, if your daughter does go to the state, you will not be bearing the entire expense. You will probably be told to turn over your child support to the state. Your H does not get out of paying child support if your daughter goes to a state facility, he just pays it to someone else.

<small>[ December 28, 2004, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: IsIt2late ]</small>

Hello All! Hope you all had a nice holiday and hope 2005 is the best to come. I'll respond to some of what I read and trust that the brilliant others on this board will add to it. Did I tell you all how blessed I am to be a member of this board and how much I learn from each and every one of you? My many thanks!

so.... here we go with the rebellious teen! BRAVO for sticking to your guns! You may want to set some rules IMMEDIATELY about time curfews and add a consequence to it. ie: During school you have to have your homework done and the chores you are responsible for. After that you can go out to hang with your friends provided you answer the following: WHO (who are you with), WHAT (what are you going to do) WHERE (where are you going to be) WHEN (when may you be at the places you are planning on being) WHY (why are you going?) HOW (how are you getting there and how are you getting back?). These are not questions for me to be nosy, but questions because I love you and want to make sure that you are ok. I trust that you will take care of yourself and make decisions based on the fact that you are able to accept the consequences of your actions. I TRUST that I raised you to be a level headed young woman and know that you will do the right thing. As you are living under this roof, You will be in at __________ on school nights and __________ on weekends which means Friday, and Saturday nights ONLY. If you are not in by that time or you leave the house after that time I will call the police."

In our house we have the rules also that curfew is NOT extended if I am working the next morning. It's far too stressful on me to sit up at night worrying and then having to get up early the next morning for work.

I know of other parents who have an alarm clock set for a certain time and it's the kids responsibility to come in and shut the alarm off when they get home or there is hell to pay. If their curfew is 11:00 and they don't come in, you'll know about it when the alarm goes off!

As for your New Year's Resolution. Hang it on the fridge...she'll read it for sure, but remember she won't admit that she did. If she asks why it's hanging up there, tell her that YOU need to be reminded. Put another copy in the bathroom for yourself!

As for the cell phone and you phoning when she's late....you've just made YOURSELF responsible for HER curfew. Change the rules. It's HER responsibility to be in at the time you specify. It IS negotiable IF she asks to negotiate PRIOR to leaving the house.

As for formal allowance -- give her a starting allowance and if she wants MORE she has to earn it. EVERYONE deserves a bit of pocket money and she has to develop skills in managing that money. Giving her an allowance is letting her know that you do want her to have something in her pocket. Clearly give what you can afford and let her know it's without strings attached (because it shouldn't be).

Like I said before --> get the book How to deal with your acting-up teenager (by Bayard & Bayard <-- finally remembered the authors). It sure helped me keep from desperation and some practical advice. I too remember being from the old school...and really being stuck on some of my own beliefs that I had to let go. Some of it is hard to take and harder yet to follow....but it didn't steer me wrong.

I can so relate to the animal issues and housing. You have to do what is right for YOU...and if this is what you can manage and what makes you feel safe and provides stability for your family -- so be it.

I rent while my ex lives in a quarter million dollar house and the equity from the matrimonial property is in trust with the courts. I *could* be resentful, but I choose not to be. I can afford it, it's a cute place that is close to younger one's friends in a good neighborhood and with good people surrounding me. I am safe. I have a restraining order against my ex and I know that if he ever came around, I would STILL be safe. At the end of the day, I don't think that God will be judging me on whether I *owned* or *rented*. Yes...granted sometimes I do get down on not *owning* but you know, I have peace in my life, something I didn't have when we did own a house. No one comes over and asks me how much my mortgage is or if I rent or not. They don't judge me on that fact...if they did, they wouldn't be a friend of mine. The *owning* vs *renting* is something you yourself needs to really get over. Renting does not make one a lesser person....only if you let it.

So my friend.... chin up and weather this storm...this too will be over in time.

Well, the you-know-what hit the fan today...

I let my daughter go out yesterday afternoon with her boyfriend who told me they'd be back early. He normally DOES get her in by curfew.

I called her at 8pm to remind her that I was counting on her being home.

Of course as suspected, she wasn't home on time. Her friends picked her up at the place she was visiting with her boyfriend and they were still out at midnight. I called--they were renting a movie and she'd be home once the movie was over.

Told her very calmly to think HARD about her choices--that I had not agreed for her to be out late, and that she might not like the consequences. Then I told her I was going to bed, which I did.
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She was home this morning when I got up. While she was asleep, I took her cell phone (and read the text messages which said little). I took the batteries out of the 2 cordless phones and hid the phones in my room. I took the power cord to the base, which can be used as a speaker phone, and hid it as well.

So, at this moment we have no phones short of my son's cell that he has in his pocket.

When she got up and figured it out she was LIVID! Then she found that I locked my room. (Yes, have the key on a fine elastic cord around my neck--this will be only temporary).

She went into her crying, screaming, cursing rage. It got uglier when she produced a razor blade from her room. She said it was to razor her hair (which she does), and I told her she was razoring nothing. Here were two women struggling in the bathroom over a razorblade. Not smart. She tried to slam the door. I stuck my foot in the way, and she smashed my toes. In response to the pain, I slapped her on the shoulder (also not a good example). She threw what was in her hand which happened to be the razorblade and I grabbed it and got rid of it.

She's cried. She's begged for phone time. I did give in and let her use her brother's cell just long enough to call her boyfriend who was supposed to come get her today, but stood in her room while she talked. She did sell him a pretty good line of bull about how mean I am.

He must have offered to sneak her away because she said, crying, "I can't! My mom will call me in as a runaway."

I have remained calm and explained as best I could that I am only doing this because nothing else I've tried has worked to help her understand limits and rules. I told her it's my responsibility as her mother to help her learn these things, and that I'd rather she learn them here than in a group home, but that I'm willing to do whatever it takes (I hope she doesn't call that bluff!).

I also reminded her that I love her father, but that I reached a point where I got tired of being treated like a doormat and I called it quits. I told her I have about reached that limit with her, too, and that if things don't change, I'll have no choice but to let someone else try and help her because I am tired of being walked on.

That may not have been the best thing to say, but it is the truth.

So...she's moping around the house. She's broken a phone off the wall and hopefully the superglue I used to glue the wall bracket back together will hold, because if it doesn't I'll have to go through Qwest DSL to get another.

She's thrown several things in her room. I consider all that her property. If she wants to ruin it, that's her issue.

She's called me a b*tch probably a dozen times and told me she didn't give a s**t or a f**k a couple times.

I can do this for a while, but I'm not sure what to do if I have to go out for anything. I also don't know what to do next week when I'm back at work and she has all the freedom in the world again.
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As for renting vs. buying, it's not so much that I'm just bothered by the "renting" (although I've been a home owner since my early 20's), but that when you rent an apartment, you aren't allowed change anything or personalize--like painting in colors or changing lighting. You are stuck with their cheap chalky white walls (and I HATE white walls--all of mine are colors or are a medium beige here). When the walls are white, the place just feels "cold" and un-homey to me.

That, coupled with not having my doggies, and having people living on both sides of me, using a community laundry, and fighting for parking in a big lot in the snowy winter are why I don't want to rent. Been there, done that for a long as I cared to.

LL

I have remained calm and explained as best I could that I am only doing this because nothing else I've tried has worked to help her understand limits and rules. I told her it's my responsibility as her mother to help her learn these things, and that I'd rather she learn them here than in a group home, but that I'm willing to do whatever it takes (I hope she doesn't call that bluff!).

ll,

There ya go. Sounds good to me. I know that you don't want to use the other avenue that you have, yet it might be the ONLY thing that can keep her from an early death. She is on a path of destruction.

I feel so bad for you...and I have been reluctant to post in regards to your daughter situation because I felt like I had nothing supportive to say. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I also reminded her that I love her father, but that I reached a point where I got tired of being treated like a doormat and I called it quits. I told her I have about reached that limit with her, too, and that if things don't change, I'll have no choice but to let someone else try and help her because I am tired of being walked on.

This is good too. Let her know that you will NOT be treated badly by ANYONE...no matter how much you love them. Let her know that you are willing to do what is best for her, even if it means letting someone else take her and raise her.

I could be in your shoes right now. I was a stay-at-home Mom and I stopped my daughter in her tracks when she attempted to walk this path. She was 14 years old...it was NOT gonna happen on my watch. It got no further than lasting 2 weeks before I called in reinforcements...meaning school authorities, with a good scare to the juvenile judge. We have a good one here...he will put the fear of God in them...just what she needed. She knew I would do it. She didn't dare call my bluff.

I am sending all good wishes and Mother-Strength to you.

committed

LL (and others lurking along):

I have two quick comments to make:

1) It can't be a bluff. No matter what, from now on whatever you say to your daughter you have to be willing to take the time and effort to back it up...all the way.

BTW, I practice what I preach. My son has to answer WHO, WHAT, WHERE, WHY, WHEN, HOW before he can go out--I have to know the kid and/or the parents--and he must be home by midnite...and if he does not answer those questions, or I don't know the kid or parents, or he's not home by 11pm--then HE CAN'T GO no matter how much he flips out! If curfew is midnite and he's not home by 12:30pm--I get in my car, drive to where he is, embarrass the heck out of him, and GET HIM FROM THAT HOUSE!! Yes...he fumes and fusses about that, but I told him, "If you do not want to be embarrassed in front of your friends, then be responsibile to get home on time or AT LEAST call and let me know what the delay is."

In our house we do not take phone calls between midnite and 8am unless it's an emergency--and any call during those hours, no matter HOW LATE, I answer it...and if it's some girl asking for him, I say, "We do not take calls at this hour. In our home, I care enough about my son for him to get proper rest. Do not call here between midnite and 8am, and if you continue to do this, you will get me, and I will report phone harrassment!!" We also do not take visitors or "go out" between 11pm and 7am, so if some friend shows up at our house at midnite and want Josh to go out, I answer the door and tell them NO! Furthermore, when he tries to "sneak out" (haha--they all try that!), I sleep on blow up mattress in front of the door!!

So, LL, if you say something to your D, it is not a bluff. You have to be willing to BACK IT UP ALL THE WAY so that she starts to learn that if you say it, you MEAN it -and- you'll back it up. Pretty soon, you can pick you battles but when you say something, your D will know that you mean it.

2) For a while you have to decide between being a parent and your own "comfort". Speaking as a parent of teenagers who had a dad who didn't give them the best example (uh hem!), one of the biggest things I have going for me is that they know that in a "battle" for control, I will win no matter how long it takes, no matter what I have to do. My YD is quite a strong-willed little lady, but even she knows that I will stay up all night if I have to in order to enforce a rule. Now, don't get me wrong...this is not about "winning a fight" or if there is an argument, proving my point. What I mean is that if a rule has been broken, they can kick and scream and swear and struggle and throw all they want, and I WILL NOT BUDGE. But, in exchange for not budging, there have been lots of nights where I have had to sacrifice my "comfort" for them. My son hates doing his homework, so after I work 9 hours a day and drive another half hour home, while I'm eating dinner at 9pm at night, I have to sacrifice my tired desire to sit and relax, and I have MAKE him do his homework in front of me. When I have to go to work in the morning and my son is trying to sneak out of the house, I have to sleep on an air-mattress across the door--and yep, I am tired and achy the next day at work! But he also "gets it" that I will do WHATEVER I HAVE TO DO including staying up all night in order to not budge.

This tends to give me lots of credibility.

LOTS.

Now LL, as you know, my kids do still try to pull stuff. My son has ADHD and had some pretty goth, rough friends too...he tried to sneak a girl into the house at 3am too...so it's not like they are perfect kids or I'm the perfect mom. BUT...it is their job to try to push the envelope and my job to say NO and mean it! We are all just doing our job! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

LL, with your exH you endured some abuse at the bottom of his bottles. It's impossible to be an active alcoholic and not have some abusive tendencies--so you know there were times when you let him railroad over you, etc. And as time went on, you grew stronger and respected yourself enough to say, "NO MORE!" Same here for your D. What she has learned is that if she is abusive to you, she gets her way and can railroad over you. Now, you are getting stronger and you will have to make the effort to show her that a) abuse doesn't work, b) respect DOES.


CJ

Well LL, you are getting another standing ovation. This little girl is starting to learn limits. You can expect more of the same for a while.

I do have two suggestions:

1) Get the razor out of the house. Throw it in the dumpster, but there is no reason to have it in the house, especially with her threats and her throwing it.

2) When, not if, she breaks into your room, call the police and report a robbery. If your daughter gets arrested again, she just might learn the lesson.

I am very impressed with you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BTW, I practice what I preach. My son has to answer WHO, WHAT, WHERE, WHY, WHEN, HOW before he can go out--I have to know the kid and/or the parents--and he must be home by midnite...and if he does not answer those questions, or I don't know the kid or parents, or he's not home by 11pm--then HE CAN'T GO no matter how much he flips out! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, I'd love to do this, but here's my issue...

On the days when I work (that'd be M-F every week but this one), what do I do when my daughter gets home from school at noon and I don't get back home until 7pm or so. (Yes,I give up a relaxing lunch hour to do the 30-mile round trip to her school, drop her off at home, and go back to work each and every day--takes 1.5 hours so I have to stay later to make it up).

THIS is a big part of my problem. She splits before I get home, I'm generally not sure who she's with, and she doesn't come home until she's ready.

As for today...she's still very cranky. She has threatened running away if I keep up this stuff that in her eyes is completely ridiculous.

I'm okay being strong for a day...or even a few. What happens next week when I'm back at work?

And Faithful, yes I have seen much abuse related to booze. Most was very vile verbal stuff (and I admit, I could dish it back to him so I was no better). My head did go through drywall once, leaving a nice head & shoulders indentation in our wall that took some work to fix. I was also the thrower. Many dishes hit our floor and/or walls especially in our early years of marriage. He'd call me an f-ing b*tch about so many times and then I'd snap. Ugly...

But the kids saw some of that stuff, so what my daughter does she may sort of come by naturally.

LL

"On the days when I work (that'd be M-F every week but this one), what do I do when my daughter gets home from school at noon and I don't get back home until 7pm or so. (Yes,I give up a relaxing lunch hour to do the 30-mile round trip to her school, drop her off at home, and go back to work each and every day--takes 1.5 hours so I have to stay later to make it up).

THIS is a big part of my problem. She splits before I get home, I'm generally not sure who she's with, and she doesn't come home until she's ready.

As for today...she's still very cranky. She has threatened running away if I keep up this stuff that in her eyes is completely ridiculous.

I'm okay being strong for a day...or even a few. What happens next week when I'm back at work?"
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Well, this is when you really have to keep it up. I really think that if she would start having some responsibilities, she would find some self-worth. If she is not there, then you could find a day-care center where she could work or she could go to a nursing home, animal shelter, homeless center, etc. to do some volunteer work. Perhaps you could tell her that for every two hours of volunteer work, she gets one extra hour of freedom.

As for the running away threat, just remind her that if she does that, you will call the police to report her. She can then look forward to the wonderful state group home where she has even less freedom. Just keep reminding her that if she carries through with these threats, you are more than willing to let her suffer the full consequences of her actions.

LL, I know this is hard. But I also know that you can do this, and when you are finally finished molding this little girl into the woman God wants her to be, you will look back and realize that you were the mother she needed. I believe in you, and more importantly, God believes in you.

ll --> there is no doubt in any of us that this is a VERY hard thing to do. You've gotten some incredible advice here that will do you well. Being consistent is probably one of the hardest things when you know that giving in is just "easier".

Let her face the consequences -- BUT -- be CLEAR about those consequences and don't EVER waiver. If you are working later, CLEARLY state what your expectations are and what the consequences to those actions are BEFORE she breaks the rules.

One thing that I noticed was you said she was late and the next day you took all the phones away. Did she know this would be a consequence of her actions? Just be wary of what consequences you dole out. If she doesn't know what's coming, she will NEVER trust you or believe anything you say. Let her know exactly what you plan to do if she comes in late or the other rules you want enforced in your house. Make sure that those consequences are fair to what she's doing -- i.e if she's late ground her for the next Friday night (grounding her the next day, on a school night may be of little consequence -- but next Friday the kids may be planning something she's really looking forward to -- just a suggestion).

Parents are supposed to set limits -- but by setting limits it's not on how your kid will behave, but on how you will be treated. You can communicate eactly what kind of treatment you want and make a firm stand. Continuing to try to control your kid will only push her closer to those negative influences. You giving her responsibility for her own actions will enable her to develop the best protection against danger; clear-thinking smarts that will keep her safe for the rest of her life.

Think about YOUR rights here -- You are entitled to your privacy -- sure she's pissed about your locked door -- but you are the one that pays the bills and you are the one that is entitled to keeping your belongings safe. PERIOD. You have the right to be free of fear of violence -- get the blades out of the house. Tell her if she starts cutting you will have her committed. PERIOD. Get her into counselling! Even threatening to cut herself is a cry out for help.

The less afraid you are of her running away or throwing tantrums, the less likely they are to happen. That's because those are blackmailing behaviours -- things the kid does to pressure you into giving in to her. No kid will waste tantrums on someone who is clearly not impressed by them.

You took the bull by the horns and locked her door! BRAVO! and now she's pissed. Why? Because you took away some of her power and she's mad. Develop some firm guidelines when you are back to work. Really think about what you are the most afraid of while you are gone -- and go from there. You don't come back until 7....what is the worst thing you can think she'll do or not do? STAY CALM at all costs..... nothing drives a teenager crazier than hearing Mom totally calm....no screaming...while she rants and raves. STAY FIRM in what you've decided as a consequence to her actions. Damn hardest thing, but with HUGE payoff's! Rant at us.... tell us what the problem is or how pissed you are, but at NO costs, retaliate, scream, slam doors etc. to get your point across. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

---as for renting.... my walls are painted what colour I want and I have my pets with me too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> There's a saying that my mom used to say... "If you say you it can't be done...it never will be." Change that thinking around to ---> I CAN!

Hi LordsLady,

I've been reading this thread with great interest because I also have a 15 year old daughter and I'm concerned that when/if she does come home I may be facing many of the problems you are having.

I agree with most of the advice that's been given about chores, curfews etc... and had a very similar plan in action but all of a sudden it backfired.

I took away two of her privileges and she called her dad and he took her. We are now enmeshed in a court battle over custody and my alleged abuse.

I guess my question for you is: Does your ex help with discipline or at least back you up in these situations or is he uninvolved?

I think I read in one of the threads that you were concerned about her going to live with him and losing your child support.