That daughter of mine! - Marriage Builders® Forums

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Love my daughter, but right now she's driving me crazy!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

She does not understand (or chooses not to understand) that now that I am not with her father, I am also living on a LOT less money. She still expects me to just hand out the dough. She's friendly when I'm giving her what she wants, but if I don't, ooohhhh watch out! The ugly yelling stuff spews forth from her!

I know this sounds trivial, but I've given her $14 so far this week for just junk and fun. I buy her groceries, her clothes, etc. The only thing she needs money for is recreation with her friends. Okay, I've been a little shorter than normal lately because XH's child support for half of October bounced and I have only received 1/2 of November.

Doesn't matter to her. She needs $20 for a show tomorrow. "It's all I'll need Mom", she says. Of course, when I gave her the $6 a couple nights ago, I heard, "But mom, if you'll give me $6 now, I only need $5 on Friday to get in to the show!".

We went from $5 to $20. She does nothing around the house to earn it, but if I tell her to do stuff and maybe I'll give her $, she says that gives her no incentive and that she'll either ask her dad for it (which she can't right now--he's in Paris), or she'll steal it (and I think she means from me, so I carry zero cash now which makes it really difficult to get lunch or anything, and forget the occasional morning java at a coffee place.)

When I told her I didn't have $20 to give her, she reminded me that I DO have enough $ to get my nails done every 2 weeks. The guilt hit me like a brick. I should give up the nails, I know, but they're something that makes me feel good (they're fake--my natural nails are flimsy and break and I have to keep them cut off). So I'm trying to decide if the nails are a selfish thing and if I'm being unfair to my daughter. Seems all the other teens parents give out a LOT of $ around these parts. But I've already given up a lot of lunches out, my coffees, etc, and I feel resentful if I have to keep giving, considering I do work a full-time job. But am I being selfish and setting a bad example with nails of all things? They're a luxury, not a necessity.

(Oh, and she reminded me that I also have my hair colored. But that IS a necessity!)

Then she said, "Don't I deserve at least $20 of my child support??" She hits that child support button a LOT. And she plays it against me with XH and OW--tells them I won't give her any money, and I've caught heck from OW a few times for how I use it. You'd think that child support was the only thing I had to live in (in fact, it is approx. 10% of my monthly total take-home income).

Tried to explain, child support is for paying for the roof over her head, utilities, the cell phone I've now given to her that was mine, food, clothes, etc, and not necessarily for recreation. She doesn't buy it.

I'm struggling because I just keep giving and giving, and yet I feel that by holding on to my hair and nail money instead of sharing with her, I'm being selfish. I could cut out a fair amount if I gave both those items up. But I don't want to.

I'm confusing myself. Help? Boundaries?

LL

[ January 01, 2005, 01:39 AM: Message edited by: lordslady ]

Dear LL,

Please realize, you do not owe her an explanation or anything else. In my opinion, you are doing the wrong thing in giving in to her. LL, it is time you stopped letting this little girl run over you.

No, there is nothing wrong with getting your hair & nails done. If your daughter wants more money, tell her to get a job! If other parents give their kids more money, too bad!!

As to her comment about child support, I think that deserved a swift kick in the bottom!! (figuratively only, of course). What I would say is that after that comment, she is not going anywhere, then ask if she has anything else to say.

Also, as I told you before, do not count on child support. I am an attorney, I have practiced some family law, and I can tell you that every person who has ever counted on child support for regular expenses has had problems. Either the check bounced, or it was lost, or the employer did not withhold it, etc. Eventually, you might get it back, but it will take a while.

Yes, I know that she was diagnosed with ODD, I have read about it in the DSMIV, and I know what it says. But you may be interested in knowing that the treatment is to withhold privileges if the child is defiant. So far, you seem to be rewarding her by giving in when she acts this way.

Prior to law school, I obtained a Masters in counseling, so I do have some training in this area. In one of my classes, a student raised her hand and said that a "friend" had a daughter who told her parents that if they did not give in to her that she would call Child Protective Services. The student asked for advice to give her friend. The professor, a well respected PhD level counselor and psychologist said to tell the daughter to go ahead. If CPS were to remove the child from the home, she would be put into the foster care system. There, she could find out how much fun it would be and the child would want to return home as soon as possible.

So, after that long soliliquy, here is my advice: Tell your daughter, "I know that it is difficult with your brother and your dad gone. I am not the perfect parent, but there are rules in this house. If you are going to live here, you will live by them. You will receive $20 per week to spend as you wish, but that is it. If you ask for more, the answer will be no. Until you support me, it is absolutely none of your business how I spend my money, and I resent your rude comments about my hair and nails. If you want to go live with your dad, I understand. But your attitude and abuse is not something that I will tolerate ever again. However, I do need to know so I can make other living arrangements."

Please realize that after you say this, she will probably leave & go live with her dad. However, she will probably have trouble there too. I do think that she needs to experience the full consequences of her actions. LL, you seem to be a sweet lady, but too sweet for yours and your daughter's own good.

Please forgive me if I seem harsh, but I just hate for her to take advantage of you with all the junk you have been through. I am pretty much a softie when it comes to my daughters too.

[ December 03, 2004, 01:04 AM: Message edited by: IsIt2late ]

If she threatens to call her dad--let her--if he and OW want to fight for custody (I doubt they would as they couldn't go to Paris and other places then) as they would have a child to care for--Nope--I don't see THAT happening--

Set down the rules--Get the book's Tough Love, Dare to Discipline, and Boundaries---and use the examples from those--

And I'm sorry, but ODD is just another word for Selfishness and Disobience to Parents---and what does the Bible say about that?? It's a SIN---so this is a SIN PROBLEM not a Psych problem--

Granted Her ADHD may be a medical problem--but the other is NOT!! And it needs to be treated as--

Can you get support from Anyone in your churches Youth Department or from Your pastor on dealing with this??

How old is she?

She does nothing around the house to earn it,
Then donâ€™t give it.

Seems all the other teens parents give out a LOT of $ around these parts.
So? You are not â€œmost parentsâ€. You are the parent of your daughter.

I've caught heck from OW a few times for how I use it.
CLICK! (goes the phone.) Why are you discussing ANYTHNG with her?

the cell phone I've now given to her that was mine,
Tell her you will give her $30 a month and she will give you back the cell phone.

[ December 03, 2004, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]

Dear LL:

it seems the problem with your daughter is still very acute and making your life unhappy.

Isit2late is giving you excellent advice.

There is the reward/punishment option for you: Tell your daughter the new rules that are in effect as of Dec 3: She gets 20$ per week. There are subtractions for bad behavior such as yelling at mom minus $5. You'll be surprised how soon she'll shut up.

What do you mean, she took your phone and she won't give it back. There is no food and no money for her until she gives it back. Or you report the theft (because this is one) to her probation officer.

Listen LL: You are thinking you are doing your daughter good, because you love her. But you are wrong. By tolerating her outrageous behavior it will just get worse. You are NOT teaching her what it takes to succeed in life: self-discipline and responsibility.

She threatens to move in with her father. Tell her: There is the door, don't let it hit you on the way out. OW and dad will be thrilled to have this lovely addition to their family.

LL, if you do not change your parenting style, your daughter will slide deeper and deeper. The next time she will really get pregnant. What do you mean she wants no birth control. Is she that stupid? For her the only acceptable solution would be a three month injection. I have seen teenagers like her and they NEVER even remember to take the pill daily.

She is at risk for AIDS and other STDs. She is at a very great risk for drug abuse. You need to get control back. Be tough. She'll start a rebellion. Sit it out. You are the one who has the money in your house. You pay for her food. You arrange for her transportation.

She does not want to live by your rules. Report her. That is the best thing you can do to get some sense back into her messed up head. Let her experience the consequences of her actions. Show her that she can loose your love if she abuses you. Stop being a doormat.

Sorry to be so blunt, but tough love is the greatest love you can give her. Otherwise you will just be running around in circles, miserable and she'll continue to spiral down.

IsIt2Late,

Right now, I AM counting on child support, because I don't have my budget in line to survive without it. But...if it did indeed go away, my fixed expenses are below what my income alone is, so I could give up things (hair, nails, all remaining lunches out, $ I'm contributing to son's college which isn't much, and in an emergency..cut my contributions back to my church temporarily) and I could make it on my income. I could NOT make it if the state got involved and took my daughter and not only did I lose XH's child support but in addition had to pay the state child support myself.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> You will receive $20 per week to spend as you wish, but that is it. If you ask for more, the answer will be no. Until you support me, it is absolutely none of your business how I spend my money <hr /></blockquote>Although my budget for her rec is more like $10/week, we don't have a set schedule. I like the idea. I may try it.

TR,

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> ODD is just another word for Selfishness and Disobience to Parents <hr /></blockquote>While the psych specialists might disagree, I tend to agree with you, though I think has it's roots with her in her ADHD.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Can you get support from Anyone in your churches Youth Department or from Your pastor on dealing with this?? <hr /></blockquote>Pastors have no ideas for me, except to pray for her or to seek therapy. Love my church, but very small. No actual youth department for teens, (nor do I think it would help). She refuses to go to church--wants nothing to do with it at all. Haven't been able to get her there in a couple years now.

Chris,

I'm letting her keep the phone. Found that being without my phone is easier on my brain than her being out past curfew and me having no way to get ahold of her. (And no, I can't stop her from going out because she leaves with friends before I get home from work.)

However, I may use having the phone as my reason to limit the $ she gets, because in actuality, my monthly bill for it is nearer $50.

Why do I talk to the OW and let her rail on me? I don't know. Why have I made so many other screw ups in my life? Stupidity? Lack of boundaries?

As for her age - she turned 15 in August.

LL

Iceprincess,

Yes--still problems, though they are not constant like they were this spring and summer. They tend to come more in spurts now. We may have a good week with no curfew-breaking, her acting considerate, etc., and then things will blow up again--generally because I won't give her $.

I do like your idea of subtracting $ from what she gets each time she yells or shows lack of respect. May have to add that to my earlier idea.

Oh, and as for the earlier job suggestion...I've suggested this over and over to her. I know it will tie up my evenings and weekends because I will have to transport her just like I did my son when he first started with McD's. But it did him good, and I think it would her, too. Just that I can't MAKE her get one.

I know I could let the state take a crack at her, but the experience I've see from kids who go through the state system is NOT good. Her cousin was in a group home for almost 2 years. Got out this year. Got pregnant and just had an abortion. She's my daughter's age. So it did her no good. Just hardened her to life in general.

I want to keep my daughter in my home. Her doctor isn't fond of the BC shots because they can cause a lot of weight gain and some other bad side effects. Also, I've know two people personally who got pregnant while taking them. I'd actually lean toward the nuvaring because you only have to remember it once a month. But she wants nothing to do with any of it. Says she's not going to have sex again for a long time. Yeah, right...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> OW and dad will be thrilled to have this lovely addition to their family <hr /></blockquote>I actually think they might...initially, because she'd become babysitter for OW's 2-yr-old and the could gain more freedom. But I think they would quickly tire of her mess and her disrespect for rules.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />She does not want to live by your rules. Report her. <hr /></blockquote>I walk a fine line here. If I report her, it might scare her or the state might step in and take her and put her in a group home. I don't want that--at all! And I'm fairly convinced she'd run from there. Her aforementioned cousin did it twice--scared her family to death--and my daughter knows how she got away with it and could repeat the act.

LL

Welcome to the party.
Two girls, 19 & 13 (14 in 3 weeks). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lordslady:
 IsIt2Late,

Right now, I AM counting on child support, because I don't have my budget in line to survive without it. But...if it did indeed go away, my fixed expenses are below what my income alone is, so I could give up things (hair, nails, all remaining lunches out, $ I'm contributing to son's college which isn't much, and in an emergency..cut my contributions back to my church temporarily) and I could make it on my income. I could NOT make it if the state got involved and took my daughter and not only did I lose XH's child support but in addition had to pay the state child support myself.
LL <hr /></blockquote>Well, all I can do is to advise you to begin making plans to reduce your living expenses. LL, please realize that if your H has not already done so, in the near future he & OW will begin discussing how they could save his child support, get child support from you, and have a live in babysitter. I have seen it happen so many time that it is scary. All they would have to do is to spend some time with your daughter, get her to start complaining about you, then tell her that they would never treat her like that.

At your daughter's age, a judge would likely give great weight to her preference. Hopefully, this will not happen, but if it does, please tell your daughter to try it for a while before your ex goes to court to modify custody.

Anyway, here is some personal advice from a Christian perspective: I have absolutely no idea of the purpose of this situation, but I do know that God has promised that all things work together for good to them that love the Lord and are called according to His purpose.

So someday, sometime, when you have come through all this, you will look back and realize that what you have learned in this experience has equipped you to be Godly woman you want to be.

ADHD and ODD often go hand in hand. Not always. But often.

I have a son with them.

This is a great opportunity, a teachable moment as they call it, for you and your daughter.

This is an opportunity for you to teach her how to make choices...

While at work, lay out a budget...to make sure this works.

List out the household expenses and list out the part that child support plays into this.

Lay out a budget for her and "her" child support. Allot a certain amount towards the mortgage, food, clothing, cell phone, cable/satellite, and recereation (and whatever else she uses).

Talk over the budge with her and let her know you have separated the money into categories, the mortgage, food, cell phone, cable/satellite cannot be changed (unless she wants to give up her cell phone) but the other categories can be changed, if she wants to give up getting new clothes for a month... she will have an allotment for recereation...once it is used up..then it is GONE.

This is an opportunity to teach her how to manage money...something you are VERY good at, and can pass along to her. You get your hair and nails done...so what...you work...

You can also let her know she can supplement her income by working too.

Post the budget somewhere...so she feels in control of it. I'm willing to bet child support will not even cover her recereation expenses...

Haven't postd to this thread in a while, but am reviving it now...

My daughter seems to be taking a major tumble again. She's disobeying curfews (mostly weekend ones, but last night was a school night and she didn't arrive home until well after midnight--curfew is 10:30pm), she's slipping in school and risking earning no credits this quarter (and this is an alternative school--there is NO HOMEWORK), she looks awful and is physically sick--strep maybe--and is running herself into the ground, and last night she had taken so many throat lozenges and other meds to try and feel better that they made her sick to her stomach and she woke up and threw up in her bed.

I also see cuts on the upper sides of one of her forearms again...that hasn't happened in months. I tried to talk with her about them this morning and she got angry as usual, and finally said something about frustrations and school and that maybe that's why she's angry and cutting.

I think she's let herself get so far behind on things that she's just giving up, and cutting is her way of punishing herself. Maybe I'll all wet.

So, I'm driving myself nuts today because I hurt for her because I know she hurts (no matter what a little monster she may be in others' eyes).

I've done research and am now wondering if I should try and put her in a private "behavior modification" boarding school. The only way I could do it would be to take out a loan for 15 years, pay $300/month (which would mean no new car for 15 years, and mine has almost 100K on it now), or try and pay down the loan somewhat by cashing in about 1/2 of my retirement moneys (what is more important right now--my savings for retirement, or my child?).

I won't let the state get their hands on her if I can help it. Just got more word last night of how her cousin is doing (or not doing) after being in a state group home for 2 years. The state doesn't care about teaching my daughter permanent coping skills and accountability. They just want to make sure she's physically safe until she's 18, and then they dump 'em out on the streets and a good share end up in trouble with the law as adults.

I want the best for my daughter, but am torn. Do I give up everything in my life (car, savings, retirement) to give my daughter a shot. (Average cost of one of these schools is just under $40,000/yr). Or do I be selfish and say "nope, it's all about ME now. I deserve these things, I'm done helping you."

(And then if I would help her...what about the son who has worked hard and now will be taking out all sorts of loans to get through college, because with the DV, we can't afford to pay his way? How is it fair to spend $40K on my daughter and tell my son to go fly a kite? Shouldn't I be giving him an equal amount?)

Confused, confused, confused.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

LL

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I want the best for my daughter, but am torn. Do I give up everything in my life (car, savings, retirement) to give my daughter a shot. (Average cost of one of these schools is just under $40,000/yr). Or do I be selfish and say "nope, it's all about ME now. I deserve these things, I'm done helping you." <hr /></blockquote>Well LL, I feel really bad about the 2x4 I gave you last week, but I really think you have some distorted thinking. You seem to be thinking that there are two extremes: 1) Spend all of your money on your daughter for a behavior modification school, or 2) Selfishly keep all of your resources for yourself.

So far, I have seen you doing everything you can for this girl and giving her every chance, and all she seems to do is just keep throwing it back in your face. I know that it sounds bad to think of her becoming a ward of the state because all they do is keep the kids safe until they turn 18. But think about this, are you even keeping her safe now?

She stays out all hours of the night, she steals from you, she refuses to return your stolen cell phone, she has unprotected sex, she drinks alcohol, she refuses to do good in school, she cuts herself, and we really don't know if this is all. I have to tell you, this little girl is in extreme danger right now.

As to coping or accountability skills, what is she really learning? She is learning that she can get kicked out of school, and her mom will find her one that is 1/2 day and has no homework. She can steal her mom's phone with no consequences. She can steal and ruin her mom's clothes and nothing happens. She can screw her boyfriend all she wants, because all her mom will do is try to get her on birth control. And if her mom gets really fed up, she can make some cuts in her arm and her mom will back off immediately.

In my opinion, she is screaming for someone to give her some limits, because she has absolutely none. This little girl knows in her heart that she does not have the judgment to be making these decisions and she is just waiting for someone to say, "You have gone too far!" No, she is not a monster, but her behavior is monstrous.

LL, I know you think it would be horrible, but there are group homes that might be appropriate for her. Have you asked your minister if there are any children's homes that might take her? I know you love your daughter, but you are not helping her by enabling her behavior. I assure you, if she was placed in a state group home, she would immediately learn limits, and my guess is that she would realize very quickly that living at home with mom is not so bad after all.

As to your son, what would you be teaching him if you borrowed from your retirement or went into debt to help his sister? He would learn that working hard, going to school, and paying his own way gets absolutely no recognition, but being defiant, irresponsible, and hateful gets lots of attention and you no longer have to try anymore.

Both of these kids need to learn that there are consequences to your actions. If your son pays his own way through college, and learns to work hard, he will put a great deal of value on his education. If your daughter learns that living with a loving mother is a privilege that can be lost, she will put greater value on it.

LL, you are a wonderful lady and a loving mother. Your H took advantage of you, have you learned from that? You don't deserve to be victimized again.

I guess I gave you another 2x4, but it just hurts to see you in such pain.

(((LL)))

â€œâ€â€She's disobeying curfews (mostly weekend ones, but last night was a school night and she didn't arrive home until well after midnight--curfew is 10:30pm)â€â€â€

Iâ€™m curious, is there any consequence for her missing curfew?

â€œâ€â€she's slipping in school and risking earning no credits this quarter (and this is an alternative school--there is NO HOMEWORK)â€â€â€

Have you met with her and the school counselor?

â€œâ€â€she looks awful and is physically sick--strep maybe--and is running herself into the groundâ€â€â€

This with all the other behaviors is the one that scares me. I know youâ€™ve adimately stated you donâ€™t think sheâ€™s on drugs but everything youâ€™ve described including this are very typical behaviors and signs.

â€œâ€â€I also see cuts on the upper sides of one of her forearms again...that hasn't happened in months.â€â€â€

I forgot, is she in therapy? Iâ€™ve met a lot of young girls who cut. Iâ€™ve had several conversations with them as to the howâ€™s and whyâ€™s. One girl told me she did some research on it and found that a large majority of â€œcuttersâ€ have suffered from some type of abuse (either physical or sexual). She further went on to say that many times itâ€™s something that the parents donâ€™t know about. Cutting, like drugs and alcohol provides them with a release from the pain of their minds.

â€œâ€â€I think she's let herself get so far behind on things that she's just giving upâ€â€â€

So whatâ€™s the plan for getting her caught back up?

â€œâ€â€So, I'm driving myself nuts today because I hurt for her because I know she hurts (no matter what a little monster she may be in others' eyes).â€â€â€

Awwww LL, sheâ€™s not a monster and donâ€™t believe anyone who tells you that. Sheâ€™s simply lost. I went through treatment with many of these 15-19yo â€œmonstersâ€ who once found a way to live life on lifeâ€™s terms are truly sweet little girls whoâ€™ve lost their innocence, usually not be their own choice.

â€â€â€I want the best for my daughter, but am torn.â€â€â€

I know you do and Iâ€™m sure that even up there in Iowaville there are resources available to you to get her help. Find it LL, donâ€™t you dare give up before the miracle happens.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> As to coping or accountability skills, what is she really learning? She is learning that she can get kicked out of school, and her mom will find her one that is 1/2 day and has no homework. She can steal her mom's phone with no consequences. She can steal and ruin her mom's clothes and nothing happens. She can screw her boyfriend all she wants, because all her mom will do is try to get her on birth control. And if her mom gets really fed up, she can make some cuts in her arm and her mom will back off immediately.

.... she is screaming for someone to give her some limits, because she has absolutely none. <hr /></blockquote>I have to agree. Your D is screaming not just for limits and boundaries but for attention. And the escalation of her behavior indicates she doesn't feel she is being heard or taken seriously.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> LL, I know you think it would be horrible, but there are group homes that might be appropriate for her.

Have you asked your minister if there are any children's homes that might take her? I know you love your daughter, but you are not helping her by enabling her behavior. I assure you, if she was placed in a state group home, she would immediately learn limits, and my guess is that she would realize very quickly that living at home with mom is not so bad after all.<hr /></blockquote>This is one option, but I suspect she is already feeling abandoned by your spouse and her father. Sending her away to behavior modification or a group home would only add to the abandoment hurt and pain she is already experiencing. IMHO, I would would only consider these choices as a last resort when all else has failed.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I want the best for my daughter, but am torn. Do I give up everything in my life (car, savings, retirement) to give my daughter a shot. (Average cost of one of these schools is just under $40,000/yr). Or do I be selfish and say "nope, it's all about ME now. I deserve these things, I'm done helping you." <hr /></blockquote>No and No. Have you considered taking some time off work and both of you working with an IC? At the place where you're daughter is at now, (hurting herself) she needs more than limits and consequences.

FMLA, the Family Leave and Medical Act is federal legislation that provides time off from work for problems such as this. If you're considering spending $40K on a private school, this would be a far less expensive an alternative. Plus it would give you and D the time together to work through both of your issues together.

Good Luck!

Please forgive me for not reading all the responses (and most likely I am repeating some advice)..but here goes.

I have 3 children. Two were teens when the divorce hit, now the youngest is 16.

I had the "you owe me" crap laid on me and the "you get child support" blah blah blah ad naseum.

What I did was list EVERYTHING that costs money to LIVE. Housing, utilities, cable, gas for the car, hot dog days at school, school fees (divided into 12 for the year), groceries (including feminine products) EVERYTHING. Then I listed the total amount of INCOMING $'s. I divided that total number by 4 (me, plus 3 kids) and then compared it to the INCOMING monies (divided by 4). We had a master budget. I don't believe in not talking to the kids about money or how much. The kids know exactly WHAT we have coming in and how much is going out. The months I get nothing, those figures change and they are the ones that help to budget so that we can make ends meet.

No longer do I get the "you owe me", it's more like them sacrificing things. Amazing I tell you. As a result they are turning into fine young adults who CAN handle their money wisely.

I had the conversations with my kids insisting that if they didn't have BRAND X, they would report me to child services. I invited them to call. I also said I would be more than happy to serve them macaroni and cheese for dinner every night, buy rabbit ears for the television, buy them a bus pass (for transportation) and purchase all their clothing from the Salvation Army -- after all, I am providing them with EVERYTHING they need -- FOOD, SHELTER and CLOTHING. They got the point in a hurry.

Now -- I do pay extra because they have earned it. If they want anything special (name brand gear) they make their own sacrifices and do without the movie or earn extra money themselves.

Teens are very hard to deal with IF YOU LET THEM intimidate you. My kids tried the "You are too strict," or "So and So's Mom lets them (or buys them" -- my response was----> "I'm not so and so's mom and I care enough and love you enough to set boundaries in my home." I was open for negotiation (i.e. a party that wasn't planned and they spent their allowance, they would negotiate to be allowed to participate, but then would have to sacrifice next weeks allowance). Many times it had to be in WRITING. Allowances were SIGNED for (the youngest was famous for "You NEVER paid me allowance this week" -- hee hee...until she had to start sighing MY daily agenda when I paid her). Takes consistency and PERSISTENCE!

oh yes...and before I forget:

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

book ---> How to Deal With your Out of Control Teen -- (forgot the author -- but deals with everything from drugs, sex, abuse, yelling, screaming, disrespect, money, bad friends etc.)

Lordlady---is struggle really the word? Teens, and our young adult!!! I feel for you!!! Peel us off the ceilings! Let go shopping!

I am sending you a card just for you!

Love sky!

http://www.angelhugs.org/HuggsBug.html

Just couldn't resist sending you this card- soooo fitting of you! Shine on!!!

Sky

http://www.angelhugs.org/ThatsWhy.html

IsIt2Late:

She stays out all hours of the night, she steals from you, she refuses to return your stolen cell phone, she has unprotected sex, she drinks alcohol, she refuses to do good in school, she cuts herself, and we really don't know if this is all.

Yes, a good share of this is true. About the phone, shortly after she started taking it, I basically told her it was hers, but that if I call she'd better answer it. She's only not answered once or twice. Although she doesn't deserve a phone, it does ease my nerves because I can usually get ahold of her now. The unprotected sex, as bad as that is, seems to be par for the course with many teenagers. I'm not sure she's any worse than others.

The refusing to do good in school is more of a giving up on herself once she gets behind. It's been there since day one. She has never been formally diagnosed with a learning disability because she scores high on IQ tests and is very verbally skilled. But I truly DO believe she has a LD. We had her at Sylvan for almost 6 months once and she did try, and her scores leaving were lower than her scores when she started. She does not learn well in a traditional setting.

Cutting--sticking her in a group home won't necessarily curb it. It can be done with something as simple as a broken ink pen. She'd have to have 24-hour supervision to keep her from it if she really wants to, and the only place she'll get that is in a mental hospital (which her insurance won't pay because she's not suicidal). A very frustrating catch-22.

I still think (and 2x4 me if necessary) that she is still better off at home. She might be slightly safer in a group home--depends on which one she was in. But they aren't nearly as interested in her future as I am. Human services just wants to keep their name out of the headlines.

There may be some homes that are okay, but many aren't. And if she went to a home it would be by way of a CINA. I would temporarily hand over my rights to the state and they could do whatever they wanted with her, potentially until she was 18. She might never make it back home again. She's my baby, and I am not ready to do that.

In my opinion, she is screaming for someone to give her some limits, because she has absolutely none.

Whether this is what her actions are screaming, I don't know. But I believe you are 100% correct that this is what she needs. Somewhere I'm going to have to find some energy. But I am going to try, little by little, to set these. I told both kids I'm planning a New Year's Revolution. It may be tiny at first, but I really am serious.

LH,

Iâ€™m curious, is there any consequence for her missing curfew?

In all honesty--very few. This is what I need to work on as a part of my New Year's Revolution. I really liked the "lock her out" idea, except that it is dangerously cold here right now. For example, the wind chill has been below zero all day and will be close to 20-below tonight. I won't lock her out and take a chance of something happening to her in the cold. If it were summer, that might be different. So I need a different idea, but I don't want to take the cell because then I can't get ahold of HER and it jangles my nerves.

To more of your questions: Yes, I've met with the school counselors. We just had conferences at the end of November and I've called them once since then. And no, I truly don't believe she's doing drugs. Her rebellion isn't a new thing. She's been rebellious since her first breath. And her difficulty in school isn't new either. It's just that once she hit her teens, it's been much worse and far harder to deal with.

And the plan for getting her caught back up is actually just a plan to get her a diploma -- the alternative school. Tutoring at Sylvan a few years ago wasn't successful. It only left her frustrated and us grumpy because of all the $ spent.

Faith,

but I suspect she is already feeling abandoned by your spouse and her father.

While she and I were always very close when she was younger, her father doted on her and basically ignored his son. In her "bad girl" attitude, her comments are things like, "I don't need Dad!" but in reality, I think what he did hurt her a great deal.

As for FMLA, not an option. I am changing jobs in February to something that once I get through the first several months, should be a better position than what I now have as it won't require travel and this one does. BUT...I have a lot to get done before I leave my company in February. Jan-Feb is our busy time--I'm an accountant and it's year-end for our communities we manage. I am taking next week off as vacation but I can't afford to take any more time off before the job change. I am taking a job with one of our clients, and the last thing I need to do is screw up now.

Elan,

My kids tried the "You are too strict," or "So and So's Mom lets them

Hear that multiple times per week.

My daughter has a VERY difficult time with logic and analysis, so math is nearly impossible. But I told her today that over Christmas break I want to sit down with her briefly and go over our budget. I don't expect her to understand it--we need to start small. But she hasn't totally refused to do it. We'll see how it goes.

And as for your book suggestion, I am going to go through all my active threads on here while I'm off and write down all the book suggestions I've had and see what my library has to offer.

Thanks all of you for your continued suggestions, support, and all!!

LL

Now I feel horrible again...

It is just hard to raise a rebellious child alone. Since your H is alcoholic, that means you have really always had to do raise her alone.

I just believe that it is human nature to take as much as we can get away with. Since you are so kind & giving, your daughter seems to really be taking as much as she can. It just seems that since you made the decision to get away from a drunk, abusive, adulterous man, you seem to have a lot of guilt which makes you want to make up for it by catering to your child.

I am sorry to be harsh, but it just is hard for me to see such a sweet woman being taken advantage of.

It is just hard to raise a rebellious child alone. Since your H is alcoholic, that means you have really always had to do raise her alone.

This is absolutely true--not just because of his alcohol use getting in the way but just because he sees parenting as a mother's job.

On one hand, it's been very exhausting and I am mentally spent right now. On the other hand, it probably really helped me when he left that I had always been responsible. Having to go through the pain of losing my H was tough enough. At least I didn't have to adjust to being the only parent, too.

The only difference I can see is in the area of transportation. He did at least help cart the kids places if he was around. Now it is 100% me and I'm struggling there.

You may be onto something with the guilt thing. I feel in a way like I failed my husband. I don't want to fail my kids, too, and in my eyes giving up on her and handing her to the State is giving up.

LL

I was walked on all last week by that daughter of mine. Last night (Christmas Eve) she left the house at 10:30 (and yes, I was the idiot who allowed it, because she wanted to see her friends for an hour). The hour turned into something past 2am. I just SO didn't want to fight on Christmas Eve.

So this morning went well. Kids were happy with Christmas. Had I not had a pounding migraine that wouldn't go away, it would have been darned near perfect.

My daughter spent the afternoon and evening with her boyfriend and he had her home at a decent hour, and I spent a good share of the afternoon in bed getting over my headache. So all was appearing well by tonight. Or so I thought...

I walked into the kitchen at 12:15am to find my daughter with her coat on. Seemed odd, so I asked her. "Going to hang out with my friends", she says.

"No you're not, at 12:15!" I say.

From there, imagine just about every curse word you can think of and imagine them either being spewed at me or me actually being called them.

All this as I remained as calm as I could on the outside--admittedly with my voice raised (and my insides just about to explode! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> ). And I repeated over and over to her that she was NOT going out, that I was the parent and that she was NOT 18 yet.

She told me I was just trying to keep her from having fun and that if she was forced to stay home (apparently she's having some issues with her boyfriend or something, because she is very moody today) she'd slit her wrists.

Now this is not a comment to be taken lightly, especially with a girl who has repeatedly done surface cutting on her arms. But she's always done that in secret, not after threats. So I'm banking that tonight was just a threat.

At any rate...with this long, long post I am just announcing that I set a limit for her and held to it. It was really tough, especially when I was being verbally slammed to the floor. I wanted to just scream, "GET OUT!". But I didn't.

She eventually called her girlfriend and told her she couldn't go out. I calmly thanked her. She stormed off, screamed that she was NOT going to Christmas at her grandparents tomorrow morning, and slammed her bedroom door.

------------------------------------------------
What to do from here I"m not sure. I do imagine the task to get her to the grandparents (my ex-inlaws) will be almost impossible, but I really want to go and they really want to see their granddaughter.

And I'm almost afraid to go to sleep for fear she'll call someone and split tonight and I won't hear her.

But I can't let her run my life.

LL

LL,

I was going to go to bed, I swear! But now that I've read your post, I have to at least respond.

As you know, your DD and my S are in the same kind of boat. My son has ADHD and is not a good "traditional" learner, even though his IQ is genius. He too is impulsive, immature, and rebellious by nature. He is my favorite son! If you remember, I discovered not too long ago that he was hanging out with some pretty wild, rough friends, and he ran away when I told him he couldn't continue hanging with them.

Well, here's what I've learned. Like you, I'm not great at this, but this seems to be working. Since I virtually stopped him from seeing his so-called friends, only three have made any effort to contact him, so in his own eyes, only three were "real" friends! Of the three who contacted him, one was a runaway who kept leaving her parents in the middle of the night and he'd hide her at our house--one is an okay kid who smokes NORMAL cigs but not the other kind--and one is a girl who has a crush on him. All three kids (and my son) have tried the "come and go all hours of the night" routine...sneaking in and out and hiding...calling all hours of the day and night. You understand this, right?

With these three friends, I laid down rules for him and my son kept trying to break them! For the runaway girl, I kept calling her parents or the police. This pissed the two kids off mightily, but I told them they could see each other illegally and involve jail for one of them, -OR- they could just start dealing with some of these rules and see each other righteously! Eventually (after about a month of trying different [censored]), my son came to see on his own that this girl was not just IN trouble but troubled, so on his own, he decided he didn't need that in his life.

With the other two, they are fairly decent kids with uninvolved parents--the one boy likes to come over here and hang all the time, and the girl just has a crush on my S and will call or show up at any hour that she thinks of him! Anyway, with those two and his best friend, they are pretty good friends and I don't half mind them, so I said he could have them over, but no phone calls between midnight and 7am, and no friends coming or going between 11pm and 8am! Futhermore, although I would accept a knock on the door at 8am, that his friends could not come over and "hang" until he had done his daily chores and applied for jobs. He had to wake up by 9am, do some sort of productive work between 9am and 4pm, and THEN he earned the priviledge of having "hang time" with his buddies.

Sooooo, of course they tried everything! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I told him it was HIS responsibility to tell his friends NO ("No, I can't talk now. You can call between ...." or "No, I can't go out or you can't come over now. You can come between ...") but he didn't. So then I gave him the option to tell them no himself or I would tell them--and he didn't. Then of course when *I* said no, he had a fit...but I stuck with it. Then, they tried sneaking in late night phone calls--and I took the phone off the hook for a week from midnight to 7am!! Then, they tried "Mom, ABC just finished visiting her friend one block away. Can she come over just to say hi?" at 12:30 at night. NO! "Can I walk her home?" Is it past 11pm?? Then NO! I slept with my bedroom door open to hear any front or back doors sneaking; if I did hear ANYTHING at any door, I called the police; and if someone did knock on the door, I woke up my son and drug him out of bed so that HE had to deal with getting no sleep!

Eventually he somewhat got the message. It's being consistent. Set a rule and stick with it no matter how much they pitch a fit or ask for an excuse "just this once." Nope, just STICK WITH IT!

The other thing that seems to help is being willing to consider renegotiate a rule if it is reasonable to renegotiate. I'll give you an example. My original rule was that my son had to be productive from 10am to 5pm, and he asked if I would consider changing it to 9am to 4pm since lots of his friends get off school near 4pm and could ride the bus over... I gave it thought and agreed to his request because he made a respectful request, not a demand; because he kept the number of productive hours and just adjusted it; because he had a solution to his dilemna not just a complaint; and because it was reasonable for him to feel like he had a voice in his work time! I think this helped him feel like he could HAVE friend-time, he just needed to earn it -AND- that he could have some say in his own life.

Chick, make your rules and stick with them. Don't "react" and don't change them every day. My son doesn't get money very well either, so when he does earn money, I figure out for him that his earnings are equal to 3 12-pks of coke and 5 meals at McD's--so now I will not buy him the next 2 12-pks or the next 4 meals at McD's. He can blow all his money if he wants to, but the next 4 times we go to McD I do not buy for him no matter HOW MUCH he complains. Yep--did that ONE TIME and he caught on quick!!! It's not a lack of math skills, it's a lack of connecting math to money to something they understand and WANT. If they want something and don't have the money and have to go without, THEY DO LEARN!

Chin up, mom. Be brave. You are not depriving your DD of having "fun." You are setting your house with your boundaries and rules, and you are allowing her to fully be herself within the limits of those rules. Pick one or two rules, STICK WITH IT, and don't back down no matter what.

((((((((((lordslady)))))))))))

Hope your migrane feels better. I'll tell you about MY day another time! OY!

CJ

Excellent, LL,

Finally you have put your foot down...it was difficult at first - I bet - but it will get easier from now on.

You have to be the one who is in charge in your relationship with your daughter. This is the ONLY way how you will teach her to be successful in life. This is how you show your love for her and -believe me- in ten years she will come back to you and thank you for being tough.

Now keep up the good work...set more limits. And do "reverse speak" with her. She is threatening to harm herself, remove yourself from being her audience. She is threatening not to go to her grandparents...too bad for her, she's missing the party. If you show her that she can't rule you, these threats loose their power very fast.

I'm proud of you, LL...now don't retreat from your position of strenght, stay right there!

Win some; lose some...

I was sitting in my bedroom on the computer at 1:20am last night and I heard a car drive up, heard my front door open and shut, and my daughter had snuck out with her friend Dani before I could stop her.

This is taking things to yet a higher level, because generally she does not sneak out late at night.

I immediately called her cell phone and told her I wanted her home. She told me she was staying the night with Dani. I told her I was hanging up and was making other calls then.

I called the cops. Only thing they can do is report her as a runaway. You could tell the cop was not in the mood to report her, since I knew who she was with. He told me she was out of control and that she didn't respect me (hello...already know that!). Generally the cops that stop at my house have been very nice and have tried to help. I wasn't too impressed with this guy. I had that gut feeling that he was just thinking, "Yeah, loser mom... kid running wild." He said I could try calling the juvenile court today, and that kids like her usually end up getting pregnant (again, don't just rub it in...give me some good ideas here?!)

I didn't turn her in as a runaway. She did come home this morning.

I HAVE placed a call to the person who put her on "informal probation" last August. She's still on it, and according to the document she signed, one of the items she's supposed to follow is:

"Obey the rules and requirements of your parent, guardian or custodian"

If this person actually calls me back (semi-doubtful), I am going to plead and beg for them NOT to take her from her home but to please offer me some help her in keeping her and teaching her limits.

I will tell them, I am 100% single-parenting with no help from her father. I want to know if they can put her on a more "formal" probation, with curfews that she has to keep and a probation officer that she has to check in with.

To me, it seems cheaper for the State than taking her away and putting her in a group home.

But I will tell anyone who reads this, I am terrified that the group home will be what they ultimately choose...

And that by opening up this can of worms by calling the State, not only will my daughter be taken from me, but my house itself will be lost (because I can't afford to lose XH's child support AND pay $600-700/month to the state to support her in some home I don't even want her in).

I just don't know what else to do. I'm trying to set rules. I'm just really afraid I'm making a big mistake.

LL

Dear LL,

sorry to hear these new (old) developments.

She disobeyed you again...what was it like this morning when she returned. Did you welcome her back or did you give her a really hard time ?

What are the consequences for her outrageous behavior last night? My ideas would be: no luxurious food (bare essentials), no money, no chauffeuring her around, no TV AND a stern lecture about how to treat one's mother (respect, obedience, love). She is putting her feet under your table, she is eating your food, you are the one who pays for her clothes and movie tickets. She disobeys you and all of the above allowances are cancelled. End of story.

How about this: she is grounded. House arrest. If she chooses to disobey you again: group home and turning her over to the state. Send her there because she has to learn to obey an authority. She knows that you are afraid of that step and she is playing you.

Unfortunately you are not making any progress with her. As adults we all have to live by certain rules of society. Your daughter is not learning that at home. I don't think it is a mistake to report to the state that she is not sticking to the rules of her probation.

LL, do not waiver from your course of action. Send a clear signal to your daughter.

All the best,

I guess I neither welcomed her back with open arms nor gave her a really hard time. When I originally heard her come home, it was early and I was exhausted and not ready to get up, as I'm on vacation this week trying to do things around here. So I opened her bedroom door, looked at her and said, "hmmmm..", and closed it and walked back to my bed.

I did try to talk with her later about things. I tried to be careful not to yell or lose my temper(because I've been informed by many people that when I do that, I lose all credibility and respect and it's something I used to do a lot of). I offered to let her see the draft of the 2005 New Year's Revolution I told her was coming. She chose not to read it. (And yes, it does address curfews as well as other things, and specifies that if you're an adult living in my house (my son, when back from college) and you choose not to follow the rules, you can choose a different place to live.

And if you are yet a minor (my daughter) and you choose to not follow the rules, the State will eventually find you a different place to live, and their rules will be much more strict than mine.

What to take away from her is an issue. She really has nothing that she cares that much about, other than her freedom. Many of her clothes come from Goodwill, because she chooses to have her own style, instead of the cookie-cutter mall look. She's not concerned about the latest fashion trend.

The cell phone is probably second on her "important items" list, after freedom. I could easily have it shut off, but I admit for personally selfish reasons I've let her keep it. When she does disobey and is out past curfew, when she has the phone, she nearly always answers it. It's my way of knowing at least she's still okay. If she doesn't have it, I don't hear from her at all and worry myself sick.

The computer would be third. It's my computer--in my bedroom. Hers has no internet access, so she doesn't use it anymore. I am still planning on implementing the locked bedroom door to my room. I just only have one key. I want to get several more made and stash them around the property, in case I lock myself out. Didn't get out to get that done yet. Once I can lock the door, she really has access to nothing of mine.

As for TV, we have it but rarely does anyone watch it. I've considered dropping DirecTV, but then that leaves me zero to watch. Rabbit ears have never worked well in this house.

She doesn't get a formal allowance because I'm from the old school where I think kids need to earn them, and she refuses to do things to earn it. I do give her $ from time to time. I will try and stop that.

Keeping her under house arrest seems impossible. I can't be here 100% of the time. True, I am on vacation this week so am around more than normal. But starting next week, I'm back at work again. She gets home from school at noon. I don't get home until 7pm or after.

Okay, so first...the probation officer I left the message with didn't return my call. This is par for the course, since she's not on a formal "report in at a certain time" probation. No one really wants to deal with her because she's slippery and has never been caught and convicted of anything. This is what I struggle with. I ask for help in trying to prevent her from being taken (because there are other things that could be done first, like a formal probation with curfews). But either no one returns my call, or I get told to call this # and then that # finally yet another #.

It's very frustrating. I can see how parents just get frustrated,throw their hands up and either give up and let them run, or they just hand them over to the State completely. It is almost impossible to get some kind of intermediate intervention.

I could write an essay on what's wrong with "the system" where it comes either to kids who haven't been caught doing anything bad, or kids whose parents are not on welfare. (If I was on welfare, I'd have it made. I'd get a housing subsidy, my son would get all kinds of grants for college instead of qualifying for nothing because he's a middle-class white male, and if my daughter ended up in the State's care, I'd pay nothing.... And I'd get to set home on my duff to boot!)

Can you see I'm frustrated with how thing work? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I work. I make a decent income for someone with an AA degree and have worked very hard to get where I am. I live in cookie-cutter suburban home that I pay $1,030 a month for, inclusive of taxes and insurance. I drive a 1998 car with 100,000 miles on it that is fully paid for.

I really like it here. It is my little sanctuary in a neighborhood where I know my neighbors because all our houses were built around the same time, and they like me. I have two large dogs who also like it here, who mean the world to me, and who have kept me company when I would otherwise be sleeping in a lonely, cold bed. I don't want to lose all this because of having to give up a third of my monthly income to subsidize all those who pay nothing to have their kids in group homes!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

And say I sell the house. There is only one apartment complex anywhere near here that I'm aware of that will allow two large dogs. They are built on a large plot of land with walking paths. They charge $50/month extra, though for dogs. And for a 2-br they charge around $800/month (that's before the dog fee). It's not a new complex--needs refurbishing. But it has a very relaxed pet policy which no others have.

If I got rid of the house, by the time I lose the tax deduction I get for being able to itemize, I'd be at about the same place I am now.
Sure, there are apartments nearer downtown that I could get for maybe $650/month for an older two bedroom. I couldn't take the dogs. If they allow any pets, it's one cat or sometimes one small (under 25lb) dog. The walls would be ugly and white; the cabinet doors would be warped; the countertops would probably be olive or gold as would the appliances. It would be mentally really depressing...giving up everything I've worked so darned hard for over the last 20 years to come home from work every night to that--and being without my daughter or my dogs.

And it's not like it would be temporary. If I sell this house, I'll never get this good a deal again (nor will I ever be able to save up a down payment big enough to afford to buy a house on my income).

I will guarantee I would be very resentful and very angry if I'm stuck renting for the rest of my life. I've thought this through a lot. I've tried to tell myself that it would be okay if God took everything from me and all I had was some ratty efficiency in the inner city for $400/month. All I need is food, shelter, and clothing. Job lost everything--his kids, his wealth, his health.

But in reality, I am struggling with my wants. I want my daughter home. I don't want to give her up. And if I do, it also confirms that I, the woman who gave her birth and have given my last 15 years to trying to do my best for her, suck at motherhood. That to follow my dismal failure as a wife.

I don't want to give up my dogs. They love me, unconditionally. 'nuff said.

I don't want to give up my home. I've already lost my husband to another woman. I may lost my daughter to the State. I'm tired of losing things.

----------------------------------------------
So how do I just let go of my baby to some system that I don't believe will do right by her, and how do I make ends meet for the next 2.5 years (until she's 18) on $1,150 less per month? (The child support I'd lose from XH plus the expected cost I'd pay the state from my income to support her?)

Perhaps I'm just venting here. I don't know what the answer is. The answer is to turn back the clock about 10 years, really pursue the ADHD treatments, spend more time with the kids and less time trying to keep the peace with my husband and trying to get him to love me. Take time to recognize that my daughter and her brother are not alike, and just because he is functioning well in this environment doesn't mean she is.

But hindsight is 20/20.

LL

Dear LL:

to summarize your last post, it sounds like there are a lot of reasons, why you are choosing not to change anything about your current living situation.

The points tha jump out at me are these:
You dream of a better relationship with your daughter, but you don't have a plan to get there. Isn't this like everything in life...you choose certain actions and they influence the people around you.

The number ONE thing you have to do in your life right now this minute is set the priority. What is most important to you...sounds to me it is fixing the relationship with your daughter.

Keeping the house is another issue down the line. Keeping the dogs is important, but not as much as your daughter.

You have excuses, why you are not implementing certain steps. E.g. locking the bedroom door...do not hide keys around the house (you and I know that daughter will find them). Get the one key and hang it on a chain around your neck for heaven's sake if you have to. But don't leave your daughter access to the computer and your clothes and then complain when she is ruining them. Thionk proactively. Think the child support issue through to the last detail. You need it to pay the mortgage, but do you have to live with daily abuse from your daughter, just to keep the house?

You are working hard, you are trying to have a loving relationship with your daughter and you have just gone through a painful divorce. Your daughter does not support you. How about she is taking care of mom, to heal mom's broken heart instead of hurting you more. Did you ever ask her to be kind and loving to you in this hard time in your life? But most likely a rebellious uncaring teenager will just blow you off.

LL, you do not need this war with your daughter every day. You need to come up with a plan how to change this. Implement it and stick to it.

The only language that these out of control teenagers understand is tough love. That's it. You need to find a way to control her, maybe the threat of turning her over to the state will work, IF she feels that you will really go that way. Right now she knows that you are hesitant to loose child support. The threat is just emty words for her right now.

LL, please find a counsellor to help you in this tough time. You need to talk it over with a professional. You need to address your feelings of guilt that you have towards your daughter and your feelings of failure as a mother and wife.

(((LL)))

My heart goes out to you, LL. Please implement a plan and put your foot down. o.k.?

Hi LL!!

I am now giving you a standing ovation!! You have begun to give your daughter the limits she so desperately needs.

I have read all of your concerns about living elsewhere, etc., and I do understand. But please remember that God already has a plan to resolve all of your concerns. For now, I suggest that you stop worrying about what might happen if you stop child support, etc.

Take things one step at a time. I suggest you try to remember that you love your daughter so much that you are willing to give up your home, your dogs, your child support, whatever it takes to help her learn that responsible people must have limits. So far, she is the one who has been holding all the cards with the knowledge that you want to have her home more than you want her to behave. When she finally believes that you want to teach her more than you want to be her friend, I think you will start to see a dramatic change.

One thing is very telling: When you really started enforcing limits, she went right to the threat of slitting her wrists. A good reply might have been, "I cannot stop you and will not pretend that I can, but if you do that, I will do what I can to stop the bleeding and call an ambulance."

LL, YOU CAN DO THIS!! I do want to tell you one thing: Someday, years from now, you will finally get to the destination where God is sending you. You will then look back and thank God that you went through this so you can become who God wants you to be.

By the way, if your daughter does go to the state, you will not be bearing the entire expense. You will probably be told to turn over your child support to the state. Your H does not get out of paying child support if your daughter goes to a state facility, he just pays it to someone else.

[ December 28, 2004, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: IsIt2late ]

Hello All! Hope you all had a nice holiday and hope 2005 is the best to come. I'll respond to some of what I read and trust that the brilliant others on this board will add to it. Did I tell you all how blessed I am to be a member of this board and how much I learn from each and every one of you? My many thanks!

so.... here we go with the rebellious teen! BRAVO for sticking to your guns! You may want to set some rules IMMEDIATELY about time curfews and add a consequence to it. ie: During school you have to have your homework done and the chores you are responsible for. After that you can go out to hang with your friends provided you answer the following: WHO (who are you with), WHAT (what are you going to do) WHERE (where are you going to be) WHEN (when may you be at the places you are planning on being) WHY (why are you going?) HOW (how are you getting there and how are you getting back?). These are not questions for me to be nosy, but questions because I love you and want to make sure that you are ok. I trust that you will take care of yourself and make decisions based on the fact that you are able to accept the consequences of your actions. I TRUST that I raised you to be a level headed young woman and know that you will do the right thing. As you are living under this roof, You will be in at __________ on school nights and __________ on weekends which means Friday, and Saturday nights ONLY. If you are not in by that time or you leave the house after that time I will call the police."

In our house we have the rules also that curfew is NOT extended if I am working the next morning. It's far too stressful on me to sit up at night worrying and then having to get up early the next morning for work.

I know of other parents who have an alarm clock set for a certain time and it's the kids responsibility to come in and shut the alarm off when they get home or there is hell to pay. If their curfew is 11:00 and they don't come in, you'll know about it when the alarm goes off!

As for your New Year's Resolution. Hang it on the fridge...she'll read it for sure, but remember she won't admit that she did. If she asks why it's hanging up there, tell her that YOU need to be reminded. Put another copy in the bathroom for yourself!

As for the cell phone and you phoning when she's late....you've just made YOURSELF responsible for HER curfew. Change the rules. It's HER responsibility to be in at the time you specify. It IS negotiable IF she asks to negotiate PRIOR to leaving the house.

As for formal allowance -- give her a starting allowance and if she wants MORE she has to earn it. EVERYONE deserves a bit of pocket money and she has to develop skills in managing that money. Giving her an allowance is letting her know that you do want her to have something in her pocket. Clearly give what you can afford and let her know it's without strings attached (because it shouldn't be).

Like I said before --> get the book How to deal with your acting-up teenager (by Bayard & Bayard <-- finally remembered the authors). It sure helped me keep from desperation and some practical advice. I too remember being from the old school...and really being stuck on some of my own beliefs that I had to let go. Some of it is hard to take and harder yet to follow....but it didn't steer me wrong.

I can so relate to the animal issues and housing. You have to do what is right for YOU...and if this is what you can manage and what makes you feel safe and provides stability for your family -- so be it.

I rent while my ex lives in a quarter million dollar house and the equity from the matrimonial property is in trust with the courts. I *could* be resentful, but I choose not to be. I can afford it, it's a cute place that is close to younger one's friends in a good neighborhood and with good people surrounding me. I am safe. I have a restraining order against my ex and I know that if he ever came around, I would STILL be safe. At the end of the day, I don't think that God will be judging me on whether I *owned* or *rented*. Yes...granted sometimes I do get down on not *owning* but you know, I have peace in my life, something I didn't have when we did own a house. No one comes over and asks me how much my mortgage is or if I rent or not. They don't judge me on that fact...if they did, they wouldn't be a friend of mine. The *owning* vs *renting* is something you yourself needs to really get over. Renting does not make one a lesser person....only if you let it.

So my friend.... chin up and weather this storm...this too will be over in time.

Well, the you-know-what hit the fan today...

I let my daughter go out yesterday afternoon with her boyfriend who told me they'd be back early. He normally DOES get her in by curfew.

I called her at 8pm to remind her that I was counting on her being home.

Of course as suspected, she wasn't home on time. Her friends picked her up at the place she was visiting with her boyfriend and they were still out at midnight. I called--they were renting a movie and she'd be home once the movie was over.

Told her very calmly to think HARD about her choices--that I had not agreed for her to be out late, and that she might not like the consequences. Then I told her I was going to bed, which I did.
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She was home this morning when I got up. While she was asleep, I took her cell phone (and read the text messages which said little). I took the batteries out of the 2 cordless phones and hid the phones in my room. I took the power cord to the base, which can be used as a speaker phone, and hid it as well.

So, at this moment we have no phones short of my son's cell that he has in his pocket.

When she got up and figured it out she was LIVID! Then she found that I locked my room. (Yes, have the key on a fine elastic cord around my neck--this will be only temporary).

She went into her crying, screaming, cursing rage. It got uglier when she produced a razor blade from her room. She said it was to razor her hair (which she does), and I told her she was razoring nothing. Here were two women struggling in the bathroom over a razorblade. Not smart. She tried to slam the door. I stuck my foot in the way, and she smashed my toes. In response to the pain, I slapped her on the shoulder (also not a good example). She threw what was in her hand which happened to be the razorblade and I grabbed it and got rid of it.

She's cried. She's begged for phone time. I did give in and let her use her brother's cell just long enough to call her boyfriend who was supposed to come get her today, but stood in her room while she talked. She did sell him a pretty good line of bull about how mean I am.

He must have offered to sneak her away because she said, crying, "I can't! My mom will call me in as a runaway."

I have remained calm and explained as best I could that I am only doing this because nothing else I've tried has worked to help her understand limits and rules. I told her it's my responsibility as her mother to help her learn these things, and that I'd rather she learn them here than in a group home, but that I'm willing to do whatever it takes (I hope she doesn't call that bluff!).

I also reminded her that I love her father, but that I reached a point where I got tired of being treated like a doormat and I called it quits. I told her I have about reached that limit with her, too, and that if things don't change, I'll have no choice but to let someone else try and help her because I am tired of being walked on.

That may not have been the best thing to say, but it is the truth.

So...she's moping around the house. She's broken a phone off the wall and hopefully the superglue I used to glue the wall bracket back together will hold, because if it doesn't I'll have to go through Qwest DSL to get another.

She's thrown several things in her room. I consider all that her property. If she wants to ruin it, that's her issue.

She's called me a b*tch probably a dozen times and told me she didn't give a s**t or a f**k a couple times.

I can do this for a while, but I'm not sure what to do if I have to go out for anything. I also don't know what to do next week when I'm back at work and she has all the freedom in the world again.
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As for renting vs. buying, it's not so much that I'm just bothered by the "renting" (although I've been a home owner since my early 20's), but that when you rent an apartment, you aren't allowed change anything or personalize--like painting in colors or changing lighting. You are stuck with their cheap chalky white walls (and I HATE white walls--all of mine are colors or are a medium beige here). When the walls are white, the place just feels "cold" and un-homey to me.

That, coupled with not having my doggies, and having people living on both sides of me, using a community laundry, and fighting for parking in a big lot in the snowy winter are why I don't want to rent. Been there, done that for a long as I cared to.

LL

I have remained calm and explained as best I could that I am only doing this because nothing else I've tried has worked to help her understand limits and rules. I told her it's my responsibility as her mother to help her learn these things, and that I'd rather she learn them here than in a group home, but that I'm willing to do whatever it takes (I hope she doesn't call that bluff!).

ll,

There ya go. Sounds good to me. I know that you don't want to use the other avenue that you have, yet it might be the ONLY thing that can keep her from an early death. She is on a path of destruction.

I feel so bad for you...and I have been reluctant to post in regards to your daughter situation because I felt like I had nothing supportive to say. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I also reminded her that I love her father, but that I reached a point where I got tired of being treated like a doormat and I called it quits. I told her I have about reached that limit with her, too, and that if things don't change, I'll have no choice but to let someone else try and help her because I am tired of being walked on.

This is good too. Let her know that you will NOT be treated badly by ANYONE...no matter how much you love them. Let her know that you are willing to do what is best for her, even if it means letting someone else take her and raise her.

I could be in your shoes right now. I was a stay-at-home Mom and I stopped my daughter in her tracks when she attempted to walk this path. She was 14 years old...it was NOT gonna happen on my watch. It got no further than lasting 2 weeks before I called in reinforcements...meaning school authorities, with a good scare to the juvenile judge. We have a good one here...he will put the fear of God in them...just what she needed. She knew I would do it. She didn't dare call my bluff.

I am sending all good wishes and Mother-Strength to you.

committed

LL (and others lurking along):

I have two quick comments to make:

1) It can't be a bluff. No matter what, from now on whatever you say to your daughter you have to be willing to take the time and effort to back it up...all the way.

BTW, I practice what I preach. My son has to answer WHO, WHAT, WHERE, WHY, WHEN, HOW before he can go out--I have to know the kid and/or the parents--and he must be home by midnite...and if he does not answer those questions, or I don't know the kid or parents, or he's not home by 11pm--then HE CAN'T GO no matter how much he flips out! If curfew is midnite and he's not home by 12:30pm--I get in my car, drive to where he is, embarrass the heck out of him, and GET HIM FROM THAT HOUSE!! Yes...he fumes and fusses about that, but I told him, "If you do not want to be embarrassed in front of your friends, then be responsibile to get home on time or AT LEAST call and let me know what the delay is."

In our house we do not take phone calls between midnite and 8am unless it's an emergency--and any call during those hours, no matter HOW LATE, I answer it...and if it's some girl asking for him, I say, "We do not take calls at this hour. In our home, I care enough about my son for him to get proper rest. Do not call here between midnite and 8am, and if you continue to do this, you will get me, and I will report phone harrassment!!" We also do not take visitors or "go out" between 11pm and 7am, so if some friend shows up at our house at midnite and want Josh to go out, I answer the door and tell them NO! Furthermore, when he tries to "sneak out" (haha--they all try that!), I sleep on blow up mattress in front of the door!!

So, LL, if you say something to your D, it is not a bluff. You have to be willing to BACK IT UP ALL THE WAY so that she starts to learn that if you say it, you MEAN it -and- you'll back it up. Pretty soon, you can pick you battles but when you say something, your D will know that you mean it.

2) For a while you have to decide between being a parent and your own "comfort". Speaking as a parent of teenagers who had a dad who didn't give them the best example (uh hem!), one of the biggest things I have going for me is that they know that in a "battle" for control, I will win no matter how long it takes, no matter what I have to do. My YD is quite a strong-willed little lady, but even she knows that I will stay up all night if I have to in order to enforce a rule. Now, don't get me wrong...this is not about "winning a fight" or if there is an argument, proving my point. What I mean is that if a rule has been broken, they can kick and scream and swear and struggle and throw all they want, and I WILL NOT BUDGE. But, in exchange for not budging, there have been lots of nights where I have had to sacrifice my "comfort" for them. My son hates doing his homework, so after I work 9 hours a day and drive another half hour home, while I'm eating dinner at 9pm at night, I have to sacrifice my tired desire to sit and relax, and I have MAKE him do his homework in front of me. When I have to go to work in the morning and my son is trying to sneak out of the house, I have to sleep on an air-mattress across the door--and yep, I am tired and achy the next day at work! But he also "gets it" that I will do WHATEVER I HAVE TO DO including staying up all night in order to not budge.

This tends to give me lots of credibility.

LOTS.

Now LL, as you know, my kids do still try to pull stuff. My son has ADHD and had some pretty goth, rough friends too...he tried to sneak a girl into the house at 3am too...so it's not like they are perfect kids or I'm the perfect mom. BUT...it is their job to try to push the envelope and my job to say NO and mean it! We are all just doing our job! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

LL, with your exH you endured some abuse at the bottom of his bottles. It's impossible to be an active alcoholic and not have some abusive tendencies--so you know there were times when you let him railroad over you, etc. And as time went on, you grew stronger and respected yourself enough to say, "NO MORE!" Same here for your D. What she has learned is that if she is abusive to you, she gets her way and can railroad over you. Now, you are getting stronger and you will have to make the effort to show her that a) abuse doesn't work, b) respect DOES.

CJ

Well LL, you are getting another standing ovation. This little girl is starting to learn limits. You can expect more of the same for a while.

I do have two suggestions:

1) Get the razor out of the house. Throw it in the dumpster, but there is no reason to have it in the house, especially with her threats and her throwing it.

2) When, not if, she breaks into your room, call the police and report a robbery. If your daughter gets arrested again, she just might learn the lesson.

I am very impressed with you.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />BTW, I practice what I preach. My son has to answer WHO, WHAT, WHERE, WHY, WHEN, HOW before he can go out--I have to know the kid and/or the parents--and he must be home by midnite...and if he does not answer those questions, or I don't know the kid or parents, or he's not home by 11pm--then HE CAN'T GO no matter how much he flips out! <hr /></blockquote>Okay, I'd love to do this, but here's my issue...

On the days when I work (that'd be M-F every week but this one), what do I do when my daughter gets home from school at noon and I don't get back home until 7pm or so. (Yes,I give up a relaxing lunch hour to do the 30-mile round trip to her school, drop her off at home, and go back to work each and every day--takes 1.5 hours so I have to stay later to make it up).

THIS is a big part of my problem. She splits before I get home, I'm generally not sure who she's with, and she doesn't come home until she's ready.

As for today...she's still very cranky. She has threatened running away if I keep up this stuff that in her eyes is completely ridiculous.

I'm okay being strong for a day...or even a few. What happens next week when I'm back at work?

And Faithful, yes I have seen much abuse related to booze. Most was very vile verbal stuff (and I admit, I could dish it back to him so I was no better). My head did go through drywall once, leaving a nice head & shoulders indentation in our wall that took some work to fix. I was also the thrower. Many dishes hit our floor and/or walls especially in our early years of marriage. He'd call me an f-ing b*tch about so many times and then I'd snap. Ugly...

But the kids saw some of that stuff, so what my daughter does she may sort of come by naturally.

LL

"On the days when I work (that'd be M-F every week but this one), what do I do when my daughter gets home from school at noon and I don't get back home until 7pm or so. (Yes,I give up a relaxing lunch hour to do the 30-mile round trip to her school, drop her off at home, and go back to work each and every day--takes 1.5 hours so I have to stay later to make it up).

THIS is a big part of my problem. She splits before I get home, I'm generally not sure who she's with, and she doesn't come home until she's ready.

As for today...she's still very cranky. She has threatened running away if I keep up this stuff that in her eyes is completely ridiculous.

I'm okay being strong for a day...or even a few. What happens next week when I'm back at work?"
_________________________________________________

Well, this is when you really have to keep it up. I really think that if she would start having some responsibilities, she would find some self-worth. If she is not there, then you could find a day-care center where she could work or she could go to a nursing home, animal shelter, homeless center, etc. to do some volunteer work. Perhaps you could tell her that for every two hours of volunteer work, she gets one extra hour of freedom.

As for the running away threat, just remind her that if she does that, you will call the police to report her. She can then look forward to the wonderful state group home where she has even less freedom. Just keep reminding her that if she carries through with these threats, you are more than willing to let her suffer the full consequences of her actions.

LL, I know this is hard. But I also know that you can do this, and when you are finally finished molding this little girl into the woman God wants her to be, you will look back and realize that you were the mother she needed. I believe in you, and more importantly, God believes in you.

ll --> there is no doubt in any of us that this is a VERY hard thing to do. You've gotten some incredible advice here that will do you well. Being consistent is probably one of the hardest things when you know that giving in is just "easier".

Let her face the consequences -- BUT -- be CLEAR about those consequences and don't EVER waiver. If you are working later, CLEARLY state what your expectations are and what the consequences to those actions are BEFORE she breaks the rules.

One thing that I noticed was you said she was late and the next day you took all the phones away. Did she know this would be a consequence of her actions? Just be wary of what consequences you dole out. If she doesn't know what's coming, she will NEVER trust you or believe anything you say. Let her know exactly what you plan to do if she comes in late or the other rules you want enforced in your house. Make sure that those consequences are fair to what she's doing -- i.e if she's late ground her for the next Friday night (grounding her the next day, on a school night may be of little consequence -- but next Friday the kids may be planning something she's really looking forward to -- just a suggestion).

Parents are supposed to set limits -- but by setting limits it's not on how your kid will behave, but on how you will be treated. You can communicate eactly what kind of treatment you want and make a firm stand. Continuing to try to control your kid will only push her closer to those negative influences. You giving her responsibility for her own actions will enable her to develop the best protection against danger; clear-thinking smarts that will keep her safe for the rest of her life.

Think about YOUR rights here -- You are entitled to your privacy -- sure she's pissed about your locked door -- but you are the one that pays the bills and you are the one that is entitled to keeping your belongings safe. PERIOD. You have the right to be free of fear of violence -- get the blades out of the house. Tell her if she starts cutting you will have her committed. PERIOD. Get her into counselling! Even threatening to cut herself is a cry out for help.

The less afraid you are of her running away or throwing tantrums, the less likely they are to happen. That's because those are blackmailing behaviours -- things the kid does to pressure you into giving in to her. No kid will waste tantrums on someone who is clearly not impressed by them.

You took the bull by the horns and locked her door! BRAVO! and now she's pissed. Why? Because you took away some of her power and she's mad. Develop some firm guidelines when you are back to work. Really think about what you are the most afraid of while you are gone -- and go from there. You don't come back until 7....what is the worst thing you can think she'll do or not do? STAY CALM at all costs..... nothing drives a teenager crazier than hearing Mom totally calm....no screaming...while she rants and raves. STAY FIRM in what you've decided as a consequence to her actions. Damn hardest thing, but with HUGE payoff's! Rant at us.... tell us what the problem is or how pissed you are, but at NO costs, retaliate, scream, slam doors etc. to get your point across. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

---as for renting.... my walls are painted what colour I want and I have my pets with me too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> There's a saying that my mom used to say... "If you say you it can't be done...it never will be." Change that thinking around to ---> I CAN!

Hi LordsLady,

I've been reading this thread with great interest because I also have a 15 year old daughter and I'm concerned that when/if she does come home I may be facing many of the problems you are having.

I agree with most of the advice that's been given about chores, curfews etc... and had a very similar plan in action but all of a sudden it backfired.

I took away two of her privileges and she called her dad and he took her. We are now enmeshed in a court battle over custody and my alleged abuse.

I guess my question for you is: Does your ex help with discipline or at least back you up in these situations or is he uninvolved?

I think I read in one of the threads that you were concerned about her going to live with him and losing your child support.

I guess my question for you is: Does your ex help with discipline or at least back you up in these situations or is he uninvolved?

Help with discipline - no
Back me up - no
Uninvolved - yes

That's why this is more difficult. I am 100% the parent right now. XH doesn't even take her on weekends or anything. She's not spent any time with him except part of a lunch hour on 12/17 since sometime in November.

Yes, XH and OW did offer to let my daughter live with them. I'm not sure what they would have done with her. Irrelevant, as my daughter chose to stay here.

LL

DD update: After being on house arrest all day yesterday (I did allow two very brief phone calls to her boyfriend - though I stood in her room while she talked), she has been granted freedom and another chance today.

She went with me to my parents' today for our belated Christmas, and she was pleasant. I dropped her off at her boyfriend's place at 4pm with instructions that her curfew is 12:30am (because she's going to a show he plays in, because I'm not working this week, and because she's not in school).

I told her if she is the least bit late, I don't care if it's 15 minutes late, if I've not pre-okayed it, she will suffer the same consequences though they will last longer than a day and there may not be any calls allowed.

Also told her if for some reason she thought she was going to be late (lack of ride, etc), that my phone better ring by midnight and I'll come pick her up.

I have phone numbers for several of her main contacts, though she still has to show me where the one guy lives where they often hang out. She doesn't know the street address...just how to get there. Typical for her--she, like me, gets around using landmarks.

So we'll see what happens tonight. I doubt the one day lockdown solved any major issues, but I'm going to try and stay on her.

My bedroom door will remain locked when I'm not in it (if anyone is in the house other than me) regardless of how she is acting, unless I've given specific permission for her to be there and I'm able to supervise.

And I keep slightly revising my "New Years Revolution" (house rules) but plan to have them posted probably on the refrigerator as suggested, plus a few other places, by 12/31.

Did I do okay for the last 24 hours?

LL

Elan, you said...

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Tell her if she starts cutting you will have her committed. PERIOD. Get her into counselling! Even threatening to cut herself is a cry out for help.
<hr /></blockquote>Oh how I wish I COULD have something done. Know what is REALLY frustrating?? When the cutting was first discovered last March, I was working with a therapist (which by the way, has been basically ineffective--we've seen several and my daughter refuses to open up to any of them). The school saw her cuts and called the Dept of Human Services. I was told to immediately take her to to a psych hospital to be evaluated.

I willingly complied. Took her in that night. Admitting person talked to pediatric psychiatrist (who has actually worked with her in the past) who said "Outpatient therapy isn't working. Need to admit her before her cutting gets worse."

Long, painful parting of her and I. Lots of tears, but I knew I did the right thing. Went home, got several days worth of clothes, dropped them off, told her I loved her, and left.

Guess what?! Next day, the hospital calls me around noon and says, "Come get your daughter. She's been discharged."

Huh?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Yep! Insurance decided she wasn't suicidal or homocidal, and since she doesn't fit those two categories, she can make due with outpatient treatment. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

And what's even better, I am currently appealing the 1,800 bill from the hospital because insurance denied it saying she shouldn't have been admitted in the first place, thus it wasn't covered. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I've sent a long letter and pictures of her arms to the insurance company. If I fail at my first appeal, the second is going with a copy to our state's Department of Insurance. So far, I've heard nothing, nor has insurance paid anything. But at least hospital has currently suspended the collection threats since it's in appeal.

Frustrating!!! Really, REALLY frustrating. My insurance pays for 30 days inpatient mental health/substance abuse per year, and 20 sessions of outpatient therapy (which is peanuts!). But I can't use the inpatient because it's obvious she's not trying to take her life. She's just cutting as a very bad (and scar-producing) way to vent her emotions.

LL

[ December 29, 2004, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: lordslady ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lordslady:


Did I do okay for the last 24 hours?

LL <hr /></blockquote>LL, I know I probably seem to be a pretty big a-hole to you, but you are doing splendidly.

LL --> YOU ARE DOING GREAT!!!

Remember.....consequences...and also consistency. Tatoo those two words on your body somewhere! (hahahaha.... seriously though you are doing great)

As for the medical -- I am not in the US, so I can not relate to the medical costs. I understand though that for Americans it is horrendous to fight the system down there. I am very grateful I live in Canada where the healthcare is easier to access.

One thing though...about counselling, my son was ordered to go and MOST times he sat there and said NOTHING. Was sullen and the like...it took MONTHS before he started opening up. The counsellor would sit there and say "OK, I understand you don't want to talk, want to play cards or something?" If anything, it showed him that someone CARED about him...and when he was READY he did open up. It did help him in the end. Frustrating for MOI having to wait for him to open up. Counsellor did not discuss anything with me, but did help my son cope with his dad.

Sometimes LL you have to let go. My son lives with Dad and has for the past 5 years. For him it was easier because dad gave him the "you don't care about me" line of bull****. He gets to do anything he wants, no responsibilities etc. He is going through the same that the oldest has gone through. I tell you this, it does come around. As hard as it is to believe right now (I remember a girlfriend telling ME the same thing and I didn't believe her! lol). Work on YOU -- and what is important to YOU (your privacy, your rules in your home) and don't waiver on your core values and beliefs. It doesn't mean that you can't bend or negotiate, but once that young lady knows that you are not giving into her every whim, it's the first step towards independence.

I too have a 16 year old living at home. Life with her is MUCH different than the hell I went through with the older two. I think now I am most likely a better parent than I was with the older two. My ex does NOTHING to help and co-parenting is not in his vocabulary. If I tell him that running without shoes over glass most likely will cut, he would say that it would make a better human out of you. Everything for him is a challenge. If it's illegal, he'll do his damndest to convince others it's just a guideline for people too chicken to challenge it. You know what I mean? Parenting with a person like that is damn near impossible.

Harder still is having a parent who will do anything to spite the other parent laying the foundation for children to become better human beings. It's hard setting down rules. He is drawing your daughter to him with promises of a *better* home and *better* rules....blah blah blah ad naseum. Sometimes you have to let them go if what they are doing in your home is destructive and dangerous. I don't wish harm on you or your daughter, BUT if there is a point when you can't take it anymore and despite all YOUR efforts and efforts of the counsellors/doctors/lawyers etc...... you have to let her go. She has to face up to the consequences of her actions WITHOUT you. Sometimes you have to let them fall down before you can help them build up again. Clearly let her know that you are there for her and that you love her. Let her know that your rules are OPEN for discussion but not up to her to change. That you WILL consider what she has to say and work from there. If I didn't do that with the youngest, she would have been to Daddy Dearests by now.

My oldest -- is on her own and is a wonderful young lady. She is kind, considerate and is working towards a successful career. All those lessons that I taught her through our battles are there!!! Every lesson that I thought she didn't *get* she gets! It's amazing I tell you!

My son -- living with daddy -- has turned a corner now. He is more communicative, spends more time with *us* (his sisters and I) and is respectful. There were MANY weekends when I turned around and drove him home before he even STEPPED in our house because he was being a little jerk (abusive and hitting his younger sister, telling me I was a b*tch and that I am *lucky* for having him come for the weekend <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ). It didn't take too many drives back to his father's before he realized I wasn't going to put up with his ****. This past Christmas was the BEST Christmas EVER. I don't think I EVER got as many hugs and kisses since. He has been calling and wanting to "talk" and tells me how much he appreciates me. Don't get me wrong, my guard is STILL up with that young man for he has done enough damage (stealing paperwork for his father from MY house to present in court). Oh yes...but you know, he too will finally get it one day.

The youngest -- I have my challenges with her, but honestly -- there are days when I ask the good Lord how I was blessed to have such a wonderful teenager. I can ONLY attribute it to the help of friends and people from MB for helping ME keep my head on straight. There are many days where I hear advice I'd rather not hear and of course feel like I have to defend myself....but I have to really look and digest what people tell me and apply what works to my life. When I am at my wits end and I have NO WHERE to turn, MB has time and time again saved my sanity and helped me along the way. I'll NEVER be out of the woods with my ex. Til the end of my days he will be harassing me and hurting the children regardless of how old they are. I realize that he's a very sick man and that he will NEVER change.

Do whatever it is you HAVE to do to keep your daughter safe. When you are losing it, reach out to whatever resources you have. Join a parenting class, find out what kind of resources they have in your city for parents of out of control teens. You may not think she's *that bad* and you will be happy to know that she's not...but the support and advice you hear in support groups will prepare you for the next battle you have to face with her. She will grow out of it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Prepare yourself for the grey hairs you get as a result and be proud of ALL your work thus far! Chin up and keep working at it!!!!!!!!!

Well, New Year's Eve actually had the potential to end on a fairly good note, but my daughter decided to screw it up!

After doing well for two days (I know...not a lot, but for her, a start), she #1) totally blew off her curfew tonight and #2) didn't bother calling me.

The only thing she still has going for her at this moment is that she answered the cell when I called her at 1:30am. She is at some other girl's house and all I know is that the girl's first name is Larissa.

I know her excuse tomorrow will be "Sorry! (in an un-sorry tone) But Mom, it was New Year's Eve. A curfew is stupid!" But in my eyes, this night was one that was more important than ever to be in when I told her.

I told her I was very disappointed in her for totally blowing off my rules, but at this point I'm not going to speak of punishment to her or she might shut the phone off and stay away longer.

She says she will be home by 12:30pm tomorrow afternoon. She sounds a bit lispy, like she's been drinking and is trying to cover. I want her to stay safe, and if she won't tell me where she is so that I can go get her, I just want her to not go anywhere at all.

But...what do I do when she gets home? I am very, very angry! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> And very disappointed! Seems I'll have to ramp up the consequences, and I only have two more days and then I'm back to work.

Anyone up for giving me "consequence" ideas here???

LL

I'm sitting here thinking how fortunate I am.

My 19 year old daughter is away at college, and called last night BEFORE MIDNIGHT to wish me a Happy New Year, and let me know she was safe at home.

I NEVER had a curfew for her, nights out and times due home were set on an individual basis - the agreement was "Tell me where you will be, what you will be doing, and when you will be home. If I object - you don't go."

ONCE after she was 16, she fell asleep during a movie at a friend's home and didn't get home on time (I didn't have the friend's unlisted number - but knew where they lived). When she woke up late, she called and was immediately on her way home. Friend's mom confirmed they fell asleep on the couch before the movie was over.

She got a job when she was 14.

I have another 14 year old now. She earns her own spending money. Curfew is the same agreement as with her sister. She doesn't have a cell phone, but uses mine when she's going out, and I've never had to search for her.

CHORES are a requirement, from the time they can fold underwear, pick up toys, or set the table - without ANY allowance. They earn money by doing things that are NOT chores, or working for someone else. My 11 year old shovels snow, rakes yards, and collects cans for his spending money. My 9 year old wrote a book.

I'm not writing this to say I'm a better mom - I'm writing this to share that life does NOT have to be a FREE LUNCH for the kid, just because you are divorced. What kind of wife is this girl going to be when she is an adult and gets married? Please DO NOT introduce her to MY SON!

Jan

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lordslady:
I am very, very angry!<hr /></blockquote>What did you expect? Honestly, the only person you have the right to be angry at right now is yourself for allowing her to go out (get drunk and who knows what else) on New Year's and expecting something different.....

She did EXACTLY what YOU should of expected her to do. Over the past weeks you've gotten some good suggestions and even "temporarily" implemented some of them. But she didn't get his way over night and it won't change overnight. She needs structure and discipline on a continual basis, not for 2 days.

*seekingjoy*,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />What kind of wife is this girl going to be when she is an adult and gets married? Please DO NOT introduce her to MY SON! <hr /></blockquote>I rarely take offense at what is said to me because I realize it's meant to help me, but I truly did at that one. I asked for advice on how to help her--not to be reminded what a f-up she was and how I should keep her away from all the "good" children so as not to corrupt them!

I have the feeling you think I'm a sleezy low-life mom who has just let her kids run wild and doesn't give a crap about them.

Well, mind you I have a son who is also in college. Short of some minor back-talking during the middle of his teens, he has caused scant little trouble. He has been in no trouble with the law short of a couple speeding tickets. He has worked at McDonalds part time since he was 15. He is now a shift supervisor. He graduated with honors from high school, was an officer in National Honor Society, and entered college at the University of Iowa at sophomore status and was accepted into the honors program due to all his A/P credits.

Admitted, he can lazy and self-centered. But he grew up with an alcoholic father who, though he worked hard and held a job and provided financially, thought only of himself and expected me to work full time, do 100% of the parenting, housework, bills, shopping, cleaining, etc and who didn't help nor did he support getting the kids to help. So the selfishness and laziness were things that both kids were taught and something they'll have to un-learn. (It can be done. My mom stayed at home and never made us do anything growing up. While it was a shock initially to have to my own stuff when I moved out, I adapted.)

The defiant behavior in my daughter, though you may disgree, is not entirely my doing as a sucky mother. She has severe ADHD. Perhaps it came from her having to have surgery 6 hours after birth and being put on a ventilator for a while. She did have a traumatic entrance. Perhaps it just happened. Perhaps you think ADHD is just a made-up term for delinquent children.

Read up on ADHD--you are obviously not familiar with what kind of behavior it causes. I am happy that you have perfect kids, but I am willing to bet they aren't the norm.

Sorry, I'm feeling rather beaten at this moment and am defensive.

LL

((LL))

Did she make it home? And what did you do?

LH,

Didn't get quite as defensive at your comments...

However, in answer to them...I guess I'm stupid. (Well, I know I am based on how many mistakes I've made in my life and how I ultimately lost my husband, but that's a story for a different thread.)

Because she had done a good job meeting curfew and had helped some around the house, even if only for 2 days, letting her go out on New Year's Eve was a reward for the better behavior (because I've had it drilled into my head over and over by therapists that you can't just "punish" an ADHD child, but you have to work with rewards, too).

It was also a test to see if she could keep it up. Obviously she couldn't.

She knows she's in trouble now and I doubt she'll be home until quite a bit later. The roads are a sheet of ice after today's freezing rain. My son has already run my car into a curb--hopefully he didn't ruin a $500 aluminum wheel. I don't really want some teenager driving my daughter home from the other side of the city yet, anyway.

But once she is home, I'm not sure what to do. Taking phone and computer priviledges will be a start. I won't be able to leave my house until Monday morning when I go to work, if I want to ensure she doesn't split (which means no church for the 2nd week in a row).

So Monday she goes back to school. What then?

I have figured out that if I have to give up my parental rights and let the State have her (aka admit to them I'm a loser and that I suck at parenting), if I can stall having to pay them until about June (which I doubt--so hello credit card debt), when I change jobs I'll be able to roll my 401k into an IRA, and then I can pull a big chuck of it, pay the IRS penalty, and use the remaining 60% to live on until she turns 18 and I'm done paying support to the state.

I need to adopt my sisters's motto: Who needs retirement $ anyway. There's no guarantee we'll live to see retirement--just as well use the $ now if I need it.

I'll still have a little $ left if this all happens. I can't pull my company stock for 1.5 years, as long as they don't go under in that time (and they're doing great--they're a retirement community management company and there are a LOT of rich retirees in the US.).

LL

And as a note to all of you thinking "boy, she can't spell or type!"....

Nope...can't spell. I'm an accountant. We do numbers.

But--my keyboard is dying an agonizing death and I'm having to hammer the heck out of it to get certain keys and the space bar to work. So just use your imagination if something is screwed up because I'm tired of trying to edit. K??

LL

â€œâ€â€Didn't get quite as defensive at your comments...â€â€â€

Good because when you get defensive you shut your ears.

â€â€â€I guess I'm stupid.â€â€â€

WHO SAID THATâ€¦.? I donâ€™t think anyone here has said that, but maybe Iâ€™m wrong. But I will say that you do have a pattern of behaviour that enables people to do bad things, which is typical for the spouse of an alcoholic. And now, IMHO, you are enabling your daughter. Itâ€™s not that youâ€™re a bad person, a bad mom, or stupid.

â€â€â€Because she had done a good job meeting curfew and had helped some around the house, even if only for 2 days, letting her go out on New Year's Eve was a reward for the better behavior (because I've had it drilled into my head over and over by therapists that you can't just "punish" an ADHD child, but you have to work with rewards, too).â€â€â€

Thatâ€™s probably true. But in all honesty, the reward you chose set her up and enabled her to continue the exact same behavior.

â€â€â€It was also a test to see if she could keep it up.â€â€â€

I donâ€™t think I would use tests that involve partying, drinking, and who knows.

â€â€â€She knows she's in trouble now and I doubt she'll be home until quite a bit later.â€â€â€

I thought she was going to be home at 12:30? As night falls the roads are only going to get worse.

â€œâ€â€I don't really want some teenager driving my daughter home from the other side of the city yet, anyway.â€â€â€

Then get in your car and GO GET HER.

â€â€â€But once she is home, I'm not sure what to do.â€â€â€

I donâ€™t either. Youâ€™ve allowed this to go to such extremes; I donâ€™t know how you can reel her in. I canâ€™t even imagine. Itâ€™s just gone soooo far.

â€œâ€â€Taking phone and computer privileges will be a start.â€â€â€

How does that keep her from drinking, having sex, doing drugs or anything else. Plus last time you took away the phone you let her use it anyway.

â€œâ€â€I want to ensure she doesn't splitâ€â€â€

Why not take a minute and help her pack her bags. If she canâ€™t conform then she no longer has a place to live.

I'm sorry you were offended.

I don't think of you as a sleezy low life, just a mom who is willing to GIVE HER KIDS *STUFF* instead of focusing on teaching them responsibility. If I'm wrong about that - I'm sorry - but I got the idea from your post here.

Congratulations on your son. He sounds like a fine young man!

My ex wasn't an alcoholic, but he was/is an absentee father who doesn't pay ANY child support. He also wanted to be waited on hand and foot when he was home. I didn't do it. I didn't allow my children to do it then - nor do I allow that now.

I have an ADHD child. We focus and discipline (and I don't mean abuse). I insist on him taking responsibility for his actions, and if he isn't then he looses privileges. He doesn't have a lot of "STUFF" and he also has to earn his own money.

I am familiar with ADHD and the behaviors it creates. I started a lot earlier with mine - and I have more control than most. I'm a WORK from home mom, and I home school. Diet/behavior/friends/etc. are more easily controlled in my situation. But it is a choice you could be making too.

Starting later doesn't mean it's impossible to change the situation.

IF you would like suggestions - my email is at the bottom of the post --- I'll be happy to offer some helpful information about either a stay at home job or working with children.

Blessings,

Jan

She didn't come home at 12:30 because I told her to hold off a couple hours. It was supposed to rain, which would have melted things. Problem is, it never did, so it's still really slick.

She is on the road now, though they were having major problems when she called. As for going and getting her--can't if I don't know where she is, and she refused to tell me because she's afraid I'll harass her at her friend's.

Stupid--I can deem myself to be stupid if I want. I feel stupid a good share of the time--always doing the wrong thing and realizing it in hindsight. If I were smart, I would know what to do.

As for stuff--most of my DD's is broken or ruined. Christmas consisted of a new cheapie stereo for $28, a coat she desparately needed, a little money, and some bath stuff in her stocking.

I rarely buy her clothes. She gets most at Goodwill. She hates "material things" and so other than some makeup, she desires little. Her priviledge is being able to go out with her friends. So I can't "reward" her with a material thing. She doesn't care and has never cared. This is why, I believe, she treats everything of mine so poorly. She really doesn't see any value to material items and is content with junk, so she can't see why others make such a big deal out of it either.

Her entire life revolves around her friends--her social life. And they aren't into status and designer things either. They all do the Goodwill thing.

She won't "earn" money--have tried that many times. If she can't just get it from me, she goes to her friends and has them pay her way for things. She seems to be very successful at this. Her boyfriend takes her out to expensive places to eat frequently--his grandmother, who has $, pays. Hard to compete, so I don't.

Admittly right now, not sure why, but I'm feeling mighty low. Maybe because I've been off work all week and haven't done anything I set out to do. I can't organize my own life. Can't keep a husband--he's probably off getting lucky with his new wife-to-be while I'm sitting here in the dark typing on my broken keyboard.

-----------------------------------------------

She just got home.

LL

*seekingjoy*

I probably shouldn't have made an assumption about your knowledge of ADHD, but I get very frustrated when I feel like people are saying their kids are perfect because they've done parenting right and my kid is screwed up because I screwed up parenting.

While I think parenting style is very important and has played a certain part in DD's development, I also believe part of how a child turns out has to do with their individual personality, too. That's why I cited my son. While he isn't perfect, he falls well within the range of normal. Both kids lived in the same house and experienced the exact same parenting.

I also think that being home with your child and/or home schooling also plays a big part and I carry a huge amount of guilt for not dropping everything to be there for my daughter when she was younger.

I worked out of necessity initially. It would have been very difficult for me to be a stay-at-home mom with my husband making $10,500/year as an auto mechanic which was what he was making when our son was born 18 years ago. And because my salary increased faster than his did, and I had all the fringe benefits, I continued to work and have been there for 19 years now.

I don't see a need at this point to try and stay at home and work and home school. Disagree if you wish, but my daughter is 15 1/2. I have only an AA degree (another thing that makes me stupid--graduating valedictorian of my albeit small class and then choosing to get married and have a family instead of continuing my schooling). And my skills are in private industry accounting. I have not and do not do taxes.

There were times as DD started to struggle when I asked my husband if I could take a different job and cut back on my hours and if we could make lifestyle cuts so that I could spend more time being involved in her schooling. Both he and the kids said "no", they did NOT want a change in lifestyle. So I did what I thought I was supposed to do as a good wife and I made him happy. Also, he can't get good health insurance through his company (in fact, he has none since our DV because he's off my plan and his employer keeps telling him "the paperwork hasn't come through" for his insurance), so I always carried the family health insurance and our retirement savings plan thru my company. He had nothing.

I have health issues ranging from surgery for precancerous changes, to digestive issues bordering on ulcers, to my everpresent since the mid-90's and sometimes very annoying heart arrhythmias. Oh yeah, and I'm a frequent migraine sufferer who takes Imitrex to be able to function sometimes. With insurance, I pay $15 for 9 pills which last a couple months. Without insurance it's around $165. Can you imagine me trying to get private health insurance? They would waiver everything. I have to be on a group plan.

And I don't have the money to send my daughter to a private school or get her a private tutor to home school her.

So, she's stuck where she is.

Maybe your response will be that I can't change things because I don't want to change things and that if I really wanted to give up my job and work from home and home school, I could. Maybe I just refuse to see that. Maybe I'm condemning my daughter to failure by not choosing that path. I agree it's probably the most successful path for any kid, whether "problem child" or normal. But in my eyes, it's too late in the game for me. Maybe if she was still in elementary school.

LL

LL,

First of all <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> and {{{LL}}}

Now on to more unpleasant things. I have followed your posts for a long time although I rarely respond, it looks as though I'll be the voice of dissent.

I really, truly think that the best thing you could do for your daughter would be to send her the behavior modification school, no matter the cost.

I know this was the very last thing that you wanted to hear, but your belief that she is better off at home..is more than likely fear induced and not truly your best judgement.

You fear having your daughter turned away..sent away..where you have lost all control..where you can't hug her and see her any time you want. Of course you do..she's your baby and always will be.

This is the heart of the matter though..she is seriously..deeply..truly in trouble. This child is drowning..she is choking on her own rebellion, and you are powerless to help her.

This is not because you are an evil woman or a lousy parent..a lot of what has occurred in her short life has been entirely out of your control. I would have no trouble believing that every choice you made that proved poor in retrospect was made self sacrificially and was what you believed to be the right thing to do at the time.

This problem is bigger than you, though. She has both nature and nurture working against her. What worked for your son does not affect her in a positive manner. What you have to offer..was what he needed tempermentally..more than likely. He is fortunate not to have the pyscho/social struggles that his sister does. He is fortunate to be in possesion of greater foresight and self control. We give our children what THEY need though as individuals..not as preassembled Ford models.

I have no doubt LL, that given time..you can absolutely work out your boundary issues. Unfortunately your D is all out of time. She has only 3 short years to get herself prepared to be a more or less adequate adult. Bst case scenario..college. Worst best case scenario..steady work and ability to make reasonable choices and not self destruct. I am so sorry to tell you, that I do not think that either of these are possible while she is in you care, no matter how loving. You are not RIGHT NOW capable of providing what she needs.

The specialists in this type of school work with and aid these youths every day..they know what works and they have the ability to enforce what they determine to be her needs.

I know that it seems a great struggle financially..but if you stop and think a moment about what the rest of her life is going to cost you as you go from crisis to crisis..this is a fair trade at least.

Having her out of the house will provide you the [dubious <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ] opportunity to pick up a second job. I would also speak with a financial advisor about possible sale of the house..possible it is actually a GOOD option..but it may not..it would be situation specific..but definitely worth checking into.

Having her removed from XH and vile OW influence would be a God send..heck I'd send her just for that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

I do hope you give this some consideration..as a dissinterested party on the outside looking in..it really seems to be the best opportunity for everyone, although, understandably painfull and difficult.

Best of luck in any case,

Noodle

Noodle,

Not sure which behavior modification school you are referring to, as I've mentioned two different things through this thread.

1) The state group home option. Basically this is where they put all the bad little kiddies who no one can handle, from the truants, to the rebels, to the thieves, violent teens, drug users, drug sellers, etc. And it's the state's job to keep them safe until they're 18. Some are in because their parents turned their rights over to the state. Others are in because the law put them there.

The cost would vary to me--essentially I'd be paying child support to the state--and could be anywhere from a few hundred to near $1,000 depending on the situation. Turning over my rights would give the state the ability to decide on her schooling, her medical care, and basically everything about her. If at the end of the CINA they decided she still wasn't ready to come home, they have the right after 12 months to permanently terminate my parental rights.

I haven't seen good things come out of these homes for the two girls I know. My niece came out last January, immediately hooked up with a meth dealer, got pregnant in October, and had an abortion.

The other girl I know not as well. She attended my church. Last time I saw her--when she was out temporarily, she told me flat out that Jesus could suck something of hers (that she doesn't have because she's a girl). I about threw up, and I fought a huge urge to grab her by the throat and choke the breath out of her. But it's not me she has to deal with, it's Jesus.

She's in a different group home now, but I hear it's not much better.

2) The other option I mentioned is a private boarding school of sorts. There is one in eastern Iowa, and one in Indiana. Most of the rest are in Utah and Montana. They range from $3,200/month to close to $5,000/month. Suffice it to say, my net take home pay isn't even $3,200/month. You can get loans to send your kids--at 5% for 20+ years. I'd like not to have to be paying $200/month until I'm retirement age!

Now, as for my house, I can tell you it would be dumb for me to sell it if I can possibly afford to keep it. I bought it for $128,000 six years ago brand new. It last appraised for $164,000 and that's because I told them to take the lowest appraisal they could, because I was going to have to pay my XH part of the equity and I wanted as little equity showing as possible. I am in a good area of town. I would be a fool to give up my $1,030/month home and rent a $650-$750/month apartment (and I would need a 2br because I'd want to have a place for my daughter to come back and visit, and for my son to live when his dorm closes for breaks and for the summer). No home loan interest would mean I couldn't itemize on my taxes. I'd probably need to increase my federal and state tax withholding by over $100/month to compensate.

Okay, so being an accounting and living, eating, and sleeping numbers: $1,030-$700(avg rent)-$100 (extra taxes w/h) = $230 savings.

And then I'd have to put the dogs down. My lab has hip dysplasia--no one will adopt her, and she's rather agressive at times to people she doesn't know. My mutt-dog is the most nervous, timid dog in the world. I'm not sure what she suffered as a puppy before I rescued her from an animal shelter, but she is my dog and my dog only. She will cower under my legs sometimes if the kids raise their voices. Again, not a good adoption possibility.

The cat could go to an apartment, but he's been cranky since he lost his brother in October and has been pooping on laundry, so he's skating on very thin ice.

-----------------------------------------------
My daughter and I had a rather vocal discussion tonight. I didn't do a good job containing my words or keeping my voice down, but that's tough. She screamed at me that I need anger management and parenting classes. Told her I only seem to have an anger problem when she grossly disobeys.

She told me she knows she has problems following authority but that it's just who she is. Hogwash. Told her she would have to learn or she was going to fail in life.

She then said we need family therapy. THE FIRST DECENT STATEMENT FROM HER IN FOREVER.

I doubt my insurance will pay for therapy on how to get along with each other, but it's worth a try so I'm going to call Monday and find out who we are allowed to see. There is also a decent counselor who works part time out of her school--might see if he has any availibility. That would be free. He's just hard to get to see.

She has agreed to therapy if it involves both of us. I would happily agree as well. And even if I had to pay out of pocket, it would be cheaper than either #1 or #2 above. I told her that this will be my final attempt at helping her myself before letting someone else have a crack at it. (And she knows I did call juvenile court last week because there was a returned call message left and she played it. I told her I haven't re-returned the call yet.)

So whether you all like this or dislike it, this is my decision at this moment.

-----------------------------------------------
As for what she did or didn't do last night, she swears she didn't drink. Maybe she did; maybe she didn't. But she did show me the pics she took on the camera she borrowed, and they were in a decent-looking house with a lot of kids and the parents were there.

But as for stopping her from having sex, I don't think there's a way to do that ultimately unless she chooses not to. It seems to be the sad reality for the majority of high-schoolers. Even my son isn't guilt-free there. I believe it's wrong--and dangerous, they were raised with that knowledge from the time they were little.

LL

[ January 02, 2005, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: lordslady ]

Oh yeah, that second job suggestion...

I have considered it even having my daughter home if money got really tight. I guess in one way I'm scared I'd fail and they'd fire me. Thought about a Christmas job in the mall this year, and then thought, "I can't tell someone how lovely they look in something just to get them to buy it." I am NOT a salesperson. Growing up on a farm, I made money by walking beans. My current job is the only "real" job I've ever held.

But second to that, my current job (and my new one I'm taking in February) are not always 40-hour a week jobs. I frequently work 50+ and during my busy time in the early spring preparing for audits, 60+ isn't uncommon. Fortunately, I can log into some of my systems from home, so can work nights and weekends from here if I remember to bring my hard-copy files with me.

But I have this stupid heart arrhythmia (well, actually a bunch of different ones) and when I get extra tired or don't drink enough fluids, they tend to act up more, which for some reason makes me even more tired (and very nervous because I always wonder when the darned thing is just going to stop beating all together). I'm afraid if I'm not getting home until after 6pm from my main job, and then obviously not going to the next job until after that, I won't be getting home until around midnight and I will be exhausted.

(OT: Heart arrhythmias...just one more reason I'll remain single forever, as no one will want to take the chance, and if I ever am so unlucky as to win an implanted defibrillator, having a square implanted in my very skinny chest will be a very large physical turn-off to men who are visual creatures. And I was told that if I was ever diagnosed with VT, which is one that hasn't shown up on the monitors yet, that's probably what I'll rate someday. Right now the doctor still thinks the ones I have are basically annoying but "benign".)

LL

LL,

I try to stay off your threads--because I really hate to hear people constantly calling themselves names--and putting themselves down--

Your not stupid--so stop telling yourself you are--
there's an old proverb--"As a man thinks--He is" so as long as you continually tell yourself your stupid--you'll feel stupid--

You know, You have an AA, so what that it's not a BA, a lot of people don't even have that much college--so you can't use that "because I don't have a BA/BS I'm stupid--and if it makes you feel stupid because you don't have a higher degree--
then Go back to college and get it--apply for financial aid--

So what that you made a choice to get married at a young age--that doesn't make you stupid--you made the choice you did with the information you had--
but even that doesn't make you stupid--a lot of other people made the same choice--and that doesn't make them stupid either--

And if your not sure how to handle these things--
then check into taking a Parenting Class--read up
on some books like Boundaries, and Raising Strong Willed Kids--learn something NEW--so that you don't feel stuck doing the things that AREN'T Working--

I'm glad your daughters home, but if it was my child--I would have gone to get her myself--I would have insisted she give me the address of where she was--and if she didn't I would have told her I'd be calling the police and reporting her as a run away--and I would tell her I'm going to take my chances and take pictures of her and post them all over town (embarassing her more) as a missing child--why? because I love her and want to know she is home safe--so if she doesn't want her pictures posted all over town and doesn't want the police out looking for her--she'd better tell me where she is--so that *I* can come get her--

But then my kids know I would do that--

If partying on New Years Eve was a treat for her good behavior--YOU as her mom should have asked her for all of the information BEFORE she walked out the door--Where is the party going to be? What time does it end? If You can't give me that information--Your butt is staying home WITH ME--because YOUR NOT GOING!!

if she can convince her boyfriend or her friends to pay her way to do things--same thing applies--
You don't go if you don't tell me who is going to be with you, where your going--when you'll be home, what your plans are--and so forth--if she wants to get mad--and throw a temper tantrum let her--if she doesn't want to talk to you for a few days, fine--she doesn't have too--just tell her--
I understand your mad because you can't go--but I'm YOUR MOTHER and have a NEED to know where MY CHILD IS GOING TO BE When they leave the house--
You ask because YOU LOVE HER!!! And want to know she's safe--

it doesn't matter if she has ADHD, those are the rules--your the parent--set them--and hold to them--

You don't have to give her over to the state--they have Camps for kids who act like this--check into them--

http://www.teenassistance.com/

http://www.teenlifelines.com/index.html?src=OT&kw=boot+camps

http://www.redcliffascent.com/

http://www.getactivewithlamparelli.com/home_for_troubled_teen.htm

http://www.my-iv.org/christian_residences_for_troubled_teens.htm

http://troubled-teenagers.org/index.php?src=ot&keyw=boot+camps+v

There are resources other than just giving her over to the state that can be helpful--gain the information YOU NEED as a parent--and seek help--

Parenting isn't easy--being a single parent is twice as difficult--but it can be done--and there are people out there that can help teach YOU how to parent more effectively--so stop feeling like there is NOTHING you can do--and start taking some control--and all of these programs work with ADHD kids--so start doing some research and make some phone calls of inquiry and you don't even have to tell your daughter--just start looking into it--
and when it happens again after you've checked into it--put her in the car and take her--no questions asked--

I wasn't suggesting that YOU home school. I did suggest you spend more time at home -maybe telecommuting those afternoon hours, so you could better supervise your daughter. Just a thought.

I was actually explaining why I did know what I am talking about.

Somehow we got off on the wrong foot...

I'm NOT putting you down. I'm trying to encourage you to set better boundaries with your daughter and focus more on yourself, than what you do for her. The money issue is one you can totally control, at least as far as you giving her money. Chores at home should be a required item, she needs to learn to be responsible. They (chores) should be linked to her going out/socializing. (I'm a firm believer that the best social experiences children can have are with adults - parents, mentors, etc.)

I'm a total wreck at relationships - but I'm a great parent <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (my one redeeming quality). So, I thought maybe this was a thread I could actually HELP on.

I can see where you are trying, I just honestly believe your daughter needs more stringent rules and serious enforcement of them.

as a 14 year old - I remember tying up a neighbor girl (with other kids) until she could learn to be nice... not suggesting it, it was just one of those wayward thoughts I remember doing as a kid. She didn't have near the attitude after that, and her children are some of my kids friends now. She remembers that as a turning point. She was headed for drugs and trouble (a real bully), and she grew up very responsible after that.

Okay - I'm going back to my room now... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Jan

Oh My LL...sounds like you've had a horrid couple of days... {{{{HUGE HUGS}}}}}

When reading these posts...really listen to what everyone is saying. I know it's hard to take some of it, but you really need to read between the lines:

She was good for two days so I let her go ----yes, it was a reward, BUT before she went out the door did you have the Who, What, Where, When, Why and How? (I snicker here because I remember having little cards typed up and my daughter HAD to fill out the blanks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> A couple of cards later she KNEW I was serious). That way, if the curfew was reached, I would DRIVE over there and pick her up. Nothing is MORE embarassing than having your MOM pick you up. It's called Boundaries. She pulled the trick of NOT being where she said she was. I pulled out my list of the phone numbers of ALL her friends (believe me...she gave me a couple and I got the REST). I would sit and dial up EVERY ONE of her friends (and of course they would give me additional numbers) -- she learned in a hurry that when I said midnight, I MEANT MIDNIGHT.

It's hard to take control -- but you CAN do it. Clearly state the punishment of being late BEFORE she goes out. My kid knew that if I had to drive to pick her up when she was late, her grounding would be longer!

Think about changing the work hours possibly. Can she NOT take public transport home? My kid does and she HAS to check in (I have caller ID so I know if she's calling from home or not). If she wants to go out after that, it's pre-arranged. If you can cut out the one step you can at least get home at a decent time. Remember that consistency is very hard to achieve as a single parent, but it does pay back big time.

Sit down and have ONE meal a day with her. No matter HOW rushed you are, having dinner at 8 or later doesn't do either of you any good. See if you can get home earlier, least you can be there to at least supervise with homework and have a meal together.

LL -- what really are the issues here? What is MOST important to you and what are issues that you can let go? (part of the book -- How to deal with your acting up teenager). Sit down and write a list down of the behaviours that drive you insane and lets get help working out an action plan for those.

She had TWO good days! BRAVO! It's a start! And YOU worked hard on being consistent! That's terrific! It takes time and patience. It will be two steps forward and three steps back, but it is still working towards something better for both of you! Please don't think that you have been a failure in this -- you are learning and you will handle the next time differently now won't you?

So -- the next time she's late -- what are you going to do?

Will respond more later after I've found myself a keyboard that works better than this one.

However, one thing my daughter yelled at me during our ugly discussion last night: "Great, Dad abandoned me. Now you're going to, too!!"

LL

wow! she's getting it....

you can follow up with --> "I love you, but I will not allow you to be disrespectful to me."

Consistency and remember YOU are the one in control here. You are the one being the parent and raising her right. It's not a matter of "my way or the highway"...but boundaries that are healthy and respectful for you BOTH. That's NOT abandonment.

{{{{{huge hugs}}}}}} <---- hang in there!!!!

She is lashing out b/c of the feeling of being not in control of her life...her life has taken so many twists and turns. She does perceive abandonment and that's why imho, she's acting out so badly.

I think she is really saying to you that she wants you to be firm and show love.

I would seek a counselor on this one. A really good psychologist even rather than a counselor this time.

And yea, still she will be a teenager who wants to branch out, have their own space, do their own thing, etc. That combined with the fact she is not happy with the runoff from the divorce is making your life and her sitch difficult.

Heck, it must be hard enough having a teen period and then having to factor in a teen dealing with the fallout from their dad's selfish actions and feelings of abandonment as well. She does feel he abandoned her.

This is why I think it's time to call in the troops here at MB like you've done...but also get a really good psychologist that can help you stay strong and tough and help her too.

We are praying. in the meanwhile, be the firm but loving one. Remember, Dr. Dobson has some great books out there...including Love Must Be Tough for parents as well...he's right...love must be tough!

LL ---

Something occurred to me. When my older daughter was about 15, she came in one night and said, "Mom, I think you trust me too much. I need stronger rules here." I thought about it, and said, "What do you mean?" She replied that she felt pretty good about her limits, when I expect her home and stuff like that, but she was kind of iffy on who she could have as friends. I said, "well, so far you've never brought home anyone I seriously disapproved of, so I don't see a problem. Is there one that I don't know of?" And she replied, "Remember that guy who came home with us last week? He doesn't really have the same values we do." I thought about it for a minute and told her that when he was in my presence, he appeared to be very mature, wholesome, friendly, kind and polite. So if he was otherwise when she wasn't with me, she needed to stop hanging with him. We discussed the limitations that she was indicating and she said she didn't feel right telling him he couldn't come with them "because she said" but if I told her that she couldn't have friends who were drinkers or smokers she would be able to hold that boundary. So, I made a restriction that she couldn't have friends who were drinkers and smokers.

My point is that children want and need boundaries, and when we don't set them as the adults, then we are not only enabling our children to "go wrong" but we are not fulfilling our duty as parents.

Had I ever seen that kind of behavior, I could have said, "I don't want you hanging with 'Tony' anymore." But I hadn't seen it in him. So, I needed to give her a limitation that was viable for her to judge her friends by. She already knew that anyone who used drugs was a problem, but we hadn't focused specifically on drinking and smoking, because in my friends that is a legal acceptability.

You know what, I'm more prone to not hang out with people who smoke and drink, since we made that rule for her. (At least during times when they are likely to be smoking and drinking.) This is an important note. I don't just tell my children something THEY need to follow. I behave largely within those same guidelines.

If I want my children to spend their time at home reading, exercising, listening to quality music, and being the kind of person I am - I try to spend time at home doing those things with them.

We go to church every Sunday, which influences where they find their friends. I would NEVER EVER NEVER NEVER EVER EVER have allowed my child at ANY age to go out for NYE with friends who may possibly have been drinking. NOT HAPPENING. NOT an option, not a possibility. My 19 year old CHOSE where to spend NYE this year, and she spent it with friends, in a quiet evening at home, watching movies and welcoming in the new year. She got those values from being RAISED With those values.

Hugs,

Jan

[ January 02, 2005, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: *seekingjoy* ]

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
You are a wonderful mother .

I have read all the posts and replies but not been able to focus my thought and any advice as my situation is very similar. I have been estranged from all my children (older teens and young adults now) as the unimaginable mess of the divorce for most people has swirled through this family, leaving four hurt, confused children in a family torn apart.....and this has been going on for 6 years.

The X alienates the children not only from me, but each other, so there are constant issues with one or another being hurt and abandoned. Trust is non existant between anyone.

Two of my children have ADHD and probable mood disorders and I have been very consistent and things work much better when boundaries are understood and preset consequences imposed........until the X again wants this or that child in his life and the child is seduced with very expensive rewards to conflict with me about "rules" in my home...and his door then opens to them until neither he or the kid can manage and both are drowning and the child is falling apart and possibly suicidal.
If their father could actually provide any parenting rather than seducing the child away from me and my way of parenting (limits, values, boundaries and expectations for personal responsibility..all of which are totally absent in his home), then abandoning them when they engage in self destructive behaviours with no rules and boundaries because that is what it is in his home, I would easily walk away, but this is not the case and when they are cast aside as they do no match up to X's expectations for "bragging rights" without doing any parenting, they are thrown away, the interventions I have chosen to put into place have been huge......as the damage is greater each and every time to the 2 younger children.

The advise I can give you is this, for what it is worth.

1)She has a job which is to go to school. If she is not doing her job, then you will only provide very minimal and basic basic needs which are food, clothing and shelter. If she is not doing her "job" then she loses her freedom to go out and be with her friends. In other words she has to earn this.

If she is going to school then time limits are needed for her to be out both on a school night and during the weekend. What I do with my 18 yo daughter is this. If she is late, she simply cannot go out the next weekend. It is non negotiable and pre determined and understood. NO exceptions or wriggle room.

If she threatens to harm herself , a trip to the hospital happens. THis happened 2X and not since then when they told her I was correct to bring her in, even though she was simply threatening and "fighting " with me.

Call her on her behaviour and try your best to WALK away when she starts her "I hate you, evil witch stuff"...been there done and still doing that. I do not let this get to me 99 times out of a 100.

My daughter has been in therapy for a loooooooooooong time and each time I have concerns as to what I am doing or if something is not "sitting" right, I speak to her therapist. This is something that might be helpful to you.

If she is still defiant and totally oppositional and still cutting the only question I have for you is what can you do to get her the help she needs? A group home may not be the answer, perhaps a shorter wilderness program.... (I speak from where I already have been and done that with a emotional growth school...and had to fight to make this happen when X was totally opposed and I was the problem ,not the kid!!!)

It is a nightmare, but unlike my marriage, for me parenting is for life, at least it is until my children can function independently..and I will do whatever it is I need to to .and that is my goal I am STILL struggling with .

[ January 02, 2005, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: amnow.ok ]

LL

I am going to appraoch this, by giving you a recent, (tonight) and perfect example of what I go through, to get where I need to with my daughter.. (and this was "MY" way of handling something that came about spontainiously, with my spontainious reaction... and I reacted out of pure (at first) ANGER.. and then came the calm, and then a REAL TALKING TO)

I have a kid who loves piercing her ears! and I hate it.. But she keeps defying me, and goes to get more wholes, behind my back.. sooooooo! tonight while sitting down for dinner together, (which does not come around that often on her schedual of working and school..) and her boy friend was here for the show.. I noticed YET ANOTHER WHOLE!!! and this one was in the MIDDLE of the ear.. not a normal spot.. so I was horrified, and steaming.. I lost it, (at first) and it quickly escalated to a blow out!! THEN I tried to use rationalism, and calmed down to talked to her but then SHE could not calm down, after I had already riled her up.. so we kept arguing.. then I punished her (IN FRONT OF HER BOY FRIEND) and she got up from the table, and went to storm out of the house, (she has her lisence) and grabbed her keys... well I then grabbed her, to stop her from leaving, and (her perception was) that I was going to hit her.. (I was merely going to stop her..) OK, so now I did stop her, and then said, to her boy freind, lets go, I am taking you home. and she said, I am not coming, because while your gone, I am going to run away.. so THERE FOR I said, WRONG!!! now your coming with us to drop him off, so lets go and WHILE I HAD HER IN MY CAR after I dropped him off, we had a long long long long talk... and beleive it or not we bonded even more..

it wound up to lead us to so many issues we both have with each other.. I told her calmly how much I am concerned about her and that I love her and had wanted so much more for the both of us, in creating a better realtionship, but how can I do that if I can not trust her or see her making an effort or make any REAL changes towards that for us too.. and that she can only go forward if she chooses to.. but this kind of behavior, took those few steps she had made forward, back quite a few pegs. and now we are back to square one.. and that I hate this and wish I did not have to punish her any more at this stage in life, but it seems she is not showing me ANY SIGNS of improvement...

well that lead to so many other issues that we continued talking (and as far as I am concerned, bonding) even deeper this very night, then we have in a long time.. but I also included that this talk, was the best thing that has happened between us is so long, that I wanted her to promise to talk to me on a weekly basis.. and THATS part of her PUNISHMENT.. lol!!

we are going to have a weekly therapy session at home, to get things off our chests.. no holding back! to me that was progress.. huge progress.. once I get her talking, she devulges alot of stuff thats been going on in her life, that she keeps quiet about.. and those are the moments I now treasue, AND TOLD HER THAT.. I want so much to feel close again, AND I TOLD HER THAT TOO..

persistance!!!! persistance!!!! persistance!!!!

and in the end.. it was not the peircing that killed me most, (although I hate how it looks) she is coming around to being a better person. and I KNOW that I am the one who has contributed to that, because I force her to talk.. even if it escalates to yelling.. to get it all out and never hold anything in that can CAUSE resentment between us.. The earrings are not whats important.. SHE IS.. so I told her whats important is that she TALKS TO ME, AND INCLUDES ME IN HER EVERY DAY THOUGHTS AND DECISSIONS.. and try to make me feel like she cares as much as I do..

In the end, after our discussion tonight.. her punishment was to clean her closet, (which "is" a true a mess) and no going out for a week.. (thats alot for her) to make up for keeping this peircing from me, and going behind my back like she did..

we have not gotten physical for a long long time.. and I felt horrible in having to physically stop her from leaving.. but I was NOT GOING TO ALLOW HER to drive off, mad, and maybe get into an accident.. and her perception of what went down, was so abstract, as to why I was so angry, that I had to finish out and clear up why I reacted the way I did, and make her understand from my possition.. as her mother..

I told her as long as we talk things out and TRY to get along, our relationship will only grow from it, and get stronger, and living together will run a heck of alot smoother, and given some time and effort, she will begin to hear see and feel this as well..!

LL,

beleive me, I know it is hard.. any one who has teens, knows it is hard, but fight with her tooth and nail if you have to, and never give up.. or let things go.. talk to her straight.. and make her aware of all your expectations, rules and regulations, morals and values.. talk about your past as a teen as well, even if you have to admit some of your own mistakes.. heck, here we are as adults still making mistakes!! but we are also trying hard to learn from them and correct them.. and she should hear that too.. after all, as the old saying goes, we are "all" only human, and there is no one perfect. and being a parent is by far "THE" hardest job of all..

I am done.. and I sorry that this post was so long.. but it was also great to vent, as well as hopefully help in a time of need..

keep up the good work LL.. you will not regret it, once you see that it is working.. it just takes time.. but you will see..

sincerely
AV

Okay--have a new keyboard so all the typos are strictly just my mess-up's now.

So much I would like to respond to, but its late so will try and be brief (not sure that's possible for me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

First - DD update: She was grounded Sat/Sun. I didn't leave the house until this morning when I went to work. No phones until Sunday night. Did let her play computer games. We talked some. I manicured her nails. Her boyfrield evidentally got worried late Sunday when he'd not been able to get ahold of her all weekend and showed up at our house. Since it was the end of the day and he'd driven all the way across town, I let him stay and visit. Just didn't let hear leave.

One more thing she said to me before we went to bed Sunday night was said, I believe, meant as an "I'll run away if I have to" threat but she said she'd do whatever she needed to do to stay out of a group home. I just wonder if she keeps pushing and pushing me as a test to make sure I'm not going to leave her like her dad did, but not realizing the seriousness of what she is doing.

So, I made calls today and have her set up with another new therapist. A MSW is the best I could do, but this woman works for the therapy group we used to go to a couple years ago. The psychiatrist that heads up the place is VERY good and used to be a pediatrician before he specialized in childrens and adolescent therapy, so if she would ever decide to try meds, he's a good person to have prescribing them. He's just VERY hard to get in to see--you usually schedule about 6 months in advance.

Actually I told the scheduling person my story and how I wanted to be actively involved in more of a "family therapy" approach instead of her just doing the one-on-one with the therapist. They said they can try that, but since my insurance doesn't pay for family therapy, they'll bill it as HER therapy and I'm just a part of it. So, we'll see how this one goes. Our intake appointment is a week from Thursday. That's the soonest I could get.
-----------------------------------------------

Now, a few responses to your posts:

TR - I was overly down on myself last week, but I do often feel "stupid", for lack of a better term. Intellectually I'm not dumb (though you can't tell by the way I type.) But there are so many things I lack that I just wonder why anyone would want to be around me at all, other than because they feel they have to be.

Along with feeling like I rather stink at motherhood--at least with my daughter...

I feel I don't have much to offer. I want to be domestic--but I'm not--not in a million years. I'm not organized (I see where DD's ADHD may have come from. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ).

I'm not up on culture. My entire married life revolved around working often long hours, being a mom, and trying to make my husband happy as he sat in front of the TV or video games all night.

I'm not fantastically witty. I'm not all soft and curvy and sexually attractive.

And yes, the AA degree sometimes bothers me because I'm competative and I feel like the world looks down it's nose at me. But going back to college never went very far because of what a handfull my daughter has always been. I was too exhausted to be a mom, work full time, and try to take classes to finish my degree. And in reality, the lack of a degree wasn't a handicap in my current job and won't be in the one I'm taking, because I have a long history working for one company and a long business relationship with the other.

But still...I feel inadequate or almost like I'm a bother to others, someone they are forced to tolerate--not like I'd make a fine catch for some guy someday.

*seekingjoy* - yes, I agree, wrong foot. Sorry. And I truly do think homeschooling has huge benefits, and I did think that was your suggestion. It does enable you to have far greater control over who your child's friends are. I am in a tough situation because my DD goes to an alternative school. ALL the kids there--100% of them--have issues of some kind, or they wouldn't be there. So she's constantly surrounded by not-great influences.

But an alternative school was better in my eyes than no school at all (which also isn't even a legal option until she turns 16).

<blockquote>quote:<hr />If I want my children to spend their time at home reading, exercising, listening to quality music, and being the kind of person I am - I try to spend time at home doing those things with them. <hr /></blockquote>Unfortuately, they grew up in a home with none of the above. Envision lots of noise from blaring TV (XH is hard of hearing due to never wearing ear protection while he worked), everyone yelling above everyone else, dogs being teased and running around barking, metal rock or rap being the music played in cars because that's what XH and kids like, people bickering and XH saying "f-ing this and f-ing that". Not a great example of calm and respect!

So now that I'm by myself, I'm doing these things (minus the exercise <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ) for ME, but haven't been able to get the kids to join in yet. I watch nearly zero TV, I listen to quite a bit of contemporary Christian music or classical, I don't smoke, I enjoy a rare glass of wine, and in general I'm trying to fill myself with things that are "good and pure" because what goes in DOES make a difference of what comes out of us.

She refuses to go to church with me but I talk about my beliefs when I have the chance with her. I can't beat my values into them (and I have a LOT of growing to do myself!!), but I'm just hoping that maybe some of my example may eventually rub off on them. (I resented my mom greatly for making me go to church, and eventually she didn't make me go very often as a teen, but I am thankful that I had the early introduction. I had a base...my kids do, too. And it's what I came back to in my early 20's--thank goodness!)

Elan,

I'm really trying to get the WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHERE and WHY before I let her go. The problem seems to be that she switches from the person she left home with to another friend somewhere during the evening and it's those plans that never get to me in advance. I'm hoping the aforementioned therapy can help us resolve some of this.

Public transportation - not available in the area of her school. It's at the edge of the suburbs, in in an industrial area. No buses run there--pretty much only cement trucks.

Work hours are an issue because I am her transport to school, and school doesn't start until 8:45. It's another 1/2 hour+ (especially in winter) to work. Then I have to leave work each day at 11:30, pick her up and drop her at home, and then drive back to work. That's another 1.5 hours on a good day. So in order to just work 8 hours, I'm there until 6:45pm. And it's another 1/2 hour home.

If/when she ever learns to drive and maybe gets a school permit (then that presents two more issues--a car, and insurance) she could drive herself and I'd be able to work more normal hours. Right now it's all me. XH was picking her up 3 days/week at noon, but once OW got a job, that stopped because they only have one car.

So I did talk to her about trying to pick a night so we could at least eat together once per week, but we'll see if that happens.

As for what's important--the curfew thing is my biggest issue. I want to know she's safe. I hate the lack of help around the house and the messes she leaves, but they come in second to curfew and respect violations.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />you can follow up with --> "I love you, but I will not allow you to be disrespectful to me." <hr /></blockquote>I am trying to follow up some of her threats and statements with similar comments.

amnow.ok--I'm going to pursue more therapy. Trying a different therapist. And going to go to therapy with her in hopes that we can learn TOGETHER how to be a functional family.

numbheart--You are so right about how important it is to talk, to be open, with your teen. Even after some of these really ugly situation, after she's gotten past the initial anger she will talk to me and be really open with things like "My boyfriend is acting such-and such. What do you think he means? What should I do?"

We actually had a nice little discussion just about stuff in general when I did her manicure.

And about admitting things from my own past. It's HARD--because I am NOT now who I was then. But I finally 'fessed up just a couple days ago to having slept with her father before I married him.

It was making a point about how I have a credible reason to say I believe it would be best to not be having sex before marriage--and then I told her. Hard for me to admit, because I wasn't much older than she was, but I think at least she now knows that I know what I'm talking about when I say I wish I'd have waited and I wash she'd think hard about what she's doing before she continues.

Okay, my post is WAY too long again. That's what happens when I don't respond more frequently.

But thank you for all your advice.

Maybe next weekend I'll have time to go through the posts and pull all the book suggestions and go either check some out from my library or buy a couple if they look like they'd be keepers for me.

LL

[ January 04, 2005, 12:33 AM: Message edited by: lordslady ]

LL,

I think the wanting to make sure your not going to bail on her too could play a big part in this--which
is all the more reason you need to be more stringent on her--so that she knows YOU care enough to stay and work through the issues--and not run away--

I'm curious, why do you think your not worthy? Is it because you think your self-esteem comes from outside yourself and how 'other people' view you?

I realize that your a Christian, so why not focus more on who you are in Christ and what He thinks about YOU as HIS CHILD--as opposed to what you think everyone else MIGHT be thinking??

read Psalm 139; Matthew 10:29-31; Genesis 1:27;
Acts 17:26, 28; Jeremiah 1:4-5; Ephesians 1:11-12;
Psalm 71:6; John 8:41-44; 1 John 4:16; 1 John 3:1;
Matthew 7:11; James 1:17; Matthew 6:31-33; Jeremiah 29:11; 31:3; 32:40; 33:3; Zephaniah 3:17;
Psalm 37:4; Phillipians 2:13; Ephesians 3:20;
2 Thessalonians 2:16-17; 2 Corinthians 1:3-4; Psalm 34:18; Isaiah 40:11; Isaiah 53; JOhn 17:23; 17:26; Romans 8:31; 2 Corinthians 5:18-19; 1 John 4:10; 1 John 2:23; Romans 8:38-39;

I realize those are a lot of verses but I think they can help you see that you are worthy--you are worth spending time with--Shoot if the God who created the Universe desires to spend time with you--You must be worthy!!! And if others can't see that--something is wrong with THEM--not you--

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> If/when she ever learns to drive and maybe gets a school permit (then that presents two more issues--a car, and insurance) she could drive herself and I'd be able to work more normal hours. Right now it's all me. XH was picking her up 3 days/week at noon, but once OW got a job, that stopped because they only have one car. <hr /></blockquote>Here is one thing that you can be using as a way to encourage good behavior NOW.

Driving is a Priviledge...not a "right". So many kids think that they have the "right" to drive once they reach 16.

I feel that it is a "priviledge" that I decide whether to give or not. My kids even had to earn the priviledge of getting their learner's permit.

That being said...start laying the ground work for her to earn that priviledge. Let her start earning it now...with good behavior, obeying curfews etc. Let her know that she is not far from being old enough to get a permit...but that you have to be able to trust her in order for that to happen.

As it stands right now, if you let her get that permit and then onto a license (without earning it through GOOD behavior)...I would want to {{{{shake}}}} some sense into you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Your problems are small now compared to what they will be when you put her behind the wheel of a car. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Just something to think about.

committed

Why can't you make her go to church? You put your feet under my table you go to church.

Driving is a privilege. If you want me to sign the papers, pay the insurance (or allow you to be added to my insurance and YOU pay - which is what I did), and provide a car (or help with one), then you do as I say. Come home when you are supposed to, be where you are supposed to be, and be the right kind of person.

No drinking and driving - I catch you drinking you are a minor you loose the privilege of driving until you are an adult.

I'm honestly beginning to see this as being you, the mom not willing to put forth the effort to maintain boundaries. I'm sorry, if that isn't the case, but it appears so.

You are a good mom because you provide for your children, but you aren't very good at raising them to be good people - which is your purpose.

Anybody can provide food, clothes, and a roof - social services does it all the time. But real parents have the ability to provide direction and discipline to their children when needed.

She may have given you a bargaining tool on Sunday evening - USE IT.

An alternative school can be a good thing - but you have to insist on discipline along with the education.

I'm not sure where parents get the idea that they have no right to be responsible for their children --- but it's a wrong idea. You have a responsibility to expect and enforce certain rules and disciplines for your children. It's your responsibility to train them up to be responsible adults.

Jan

*seekingjoy*,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'm honestly beginning to see this as being you, the mom not willing to put forth the effort to maintain boundaries.
<hr /></blockquote>Perhaps a wrong interpretation by me, but again, I feel you are saying I am lazy or not trying.

You also say,

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> You are a good mom because you provide for your children, but you aren't very good at raising them to be good people - which is your purpose. <hr /></blockquote>But then go on to say,

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Anybody can provide food, clothes, and a roof - social services does it all the time. But real parents have the ability to provide direction and discipline to their children when needed. <hr /></blockquote>Interpreted by me as: You are not living up to your purpose as a mother. You are no better than social services. You are not a "real parent".

Questions for you:

What is a "real parent"? Please define?

Will forcing my child to go to church cause her to be a Christian any faster? (or will it just cause her to be resentful and potentially disrupt the worship service for everyone else?) Would it be better for me to go, and to live as a witness, hoping that she sees what's in me and, using the base she has from going to church for many years as a child, let God work through that?

How are you able to determine how hard I'm trying?

How can you, or anyone, know what will or won't work without trying, failing, and trying something different?

Is parenting a "one way works for all kids" thing, or does it have to be tailored to each child's personality?

------------------------------------------------

No, I am not the perfect parent. And I do believe that living in an alcoholic marriage has an effect on how people turn out, both children and their parents. I have not learned good boundaries. I am trying. It's not something that will happen overnight. I can't change the world in a week.

I am trying. I have therapy appointments set up--for BOTH of us to go to together. I have enforced consequences, however weak they may seem to some.

I do not believe that giving her over to the state is in her best interests until I have exhausted all other options, and I have not done that yet. But neither will I solve everything in a week.

She's had 15 years to become who she is--she won't be turned around in 2 days.

LL

[ January 05, 2005, 11:59 PM: Message edited by: lordslady ]

TR,

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I realize that your a Christian, so why not focus more on who you are in Christ and what He thinks about YOU as HIS CHILD--as opposed to what you think everyone else MIGHT be thinking??
<hr /></blockquote>I try--I really do. And I do believe that I was made the way I am, with all my imperfections, for a purpose.

But yes, my self-worth does hinge more than it should on what others think. I want to get to a point where I can look in the mirror and say, "I don't care if the rest of the world thinks I'm a total loser, because I know I'm not." I'm not there yet...

And my self-worth is closely tied to my success as a wife and mother, because that's what I felt my purpose as a Christian woman was. I put everything that was in me into trying to do both (and work full-time to make $ to make my husband and family happy because it's what they wanted).

I failed miserably at #1, and it would appear in the eyes of the world, and in the behavior of my daughter, I'm also failing at #2. What's left?

Committed,

Driving--hmmmm, in theory it would seem a great opportunity or "bargaining chip". And it's a great point you bring up.

I have an uncommon problem, though (and actually had it to a lesser extent with my son). They actually DON'T want to get their permits and drive!!

Hard for me to understand because as a country girl at 14 years old (the age to get a permit in Iowa), I had my parents marching over with me to get my permit, I believe, on my birthday.

My daughter is 15 1/2 and has yet to even sit down and start studying for the test. Oh, she's asked in passing a few times when I'm going to take her in, but when I offer, she doesn't want to go. I think she's content to ride with others.

I'm not pushing the issue, but on the other hand, once she turns 16, if she had her permit for at least 6 months and went through drivers education, she could get her license. If we found some kind of car (no idea if XH plans to help on that, though), she could drive herself to school and back which would REALLY make things better for me and my work hours. I could work more normal hours, which would allow me to be home earlier in the evenings.

But...right now she really doesn't care. So I have to come up with other ideas. It would be a really good one for 99% of teenagers today, though!

LL

You are a great mom and a parent to your daughter.
We all are the best parents we know how to be at the time and all of us are working at doing the best job we possibly can to lead our children to become responsible adults, sometimes under very difficult circumstances.

The fact that you are reaching out for advice and help, admitting your weaknesses in providing a more positive environment to help your daughter, making changes where possible and setting up therapy appointments, to me is a source of committment and tremendous strength for which I applaud you.

I wish it was as simple as one poster suggested-setting the boundaries and consequences and then everything will fall into place, children will be responsible, respectful and hardworking. With some children it cannot and will not happen, no matter how "good" a parent is. I have been extremely consistent with all my children. After initially struggling for many years, my daughter actually did very well for 2 years, became much more responsible within the context of who she is and always will be. She got her driving licence, understanding that this was a priviledge, and I did provide a car for her use to get to school and back which freed me for other committments I could then take on. About a year ago everything came undone with no changes in my home to explain this. (Driving was prohibited under any circumstances due to her irresponsible and impulsive behaviour, car sold after 6 months of her lack of getting back to a more stable and responsible way of being) Therefore the reason for this out of control behaviour, how to address this as a parent and what to do are beyond a more traditional formula.

One needs to look at not every incident of breaking rules, but rather the patterns of behaviour to get a bigger picture and address this root cause that drives some kids to engage in self desructive behaviour, as your daughter is doing it seems.

Even with an answer(or label perhaps) a parent still needs help in dealing with the behaviour and very much choosing which battles to engage in.

My daughter's job is to go to school and finish her final year as this is her choice.If she engages in self destructive behaviour (skipping school, not completing assignments, running out at night if her work is not done .etc or anything else that prevents her from accomplishing this goal, which are many questionable activities, then there are consequences. Put in this context there is a reason for her not to engage in these behaviours....not that it always stops her, but it does cause much more respectful behaviour from her when consequences (pre negotiated) are enforced.

My motto is that as long as I do the best I can, seek all advice, guidance and intervention in my capablity and know how to do, then I will never look back with regret at a "would have could have" mind set. Whether my daughter will take the correct path will not be for want of my trying or leaving any stone unturned to point her and guide her on this route...and whatever will be, I will accept.

I do believe that many single parents on this board are dealing with difficult kids issues which have always existed for these families (ADD, ADD and various learning, behavoural and mental health issues) all of which together with the family situation simply has magnified and created increased chaos especially in single parent homes. Just my 1c worth.

[ January 05, 2005, 10:35 PM: Message edited by: amnow.ok ]

I'm the mom of a 3 year old boy, and very often thinking how I'll raise him, what kind of a man he'll become...
I have my fears, and I read this with a great interest...
And I don't know what's waiting for me being a divorced mom, (although, these things happen to married ones too, so it isn't just being divorced causing all troubles) and I don't know what mistakes I will make (God, don't allow me big ones!), but I have to say this:

Reading all of this made me so sad...
Yes, many good advise (boundaries, persistence, discipline, not some other ones though...), and (I might have missed) but did not read something that's very important (IMHO!):

Nobody says - poor girl!
While your H was your choice, she had no choice.
Don't get me wrong; it's the same with my son...

I didn't read your story, but I can guess what you went through... but your daughter TOO...
(You had&have MB, among other self-consolations... what did she have at the same time??)

You should have found the way to share yours and her pain together, to heal together, to grow together!

Didn't read - do you (how often) you say to her - I love you, you're precious to me?
How often you sit down and talk to her, as an adult to the adult, taking her talk with respect even if you don't agree, asking her for advise, share your fears and let her share hers, understanding her wanderings as a young woman lost in searching her own place under her cloudy sky...?
Do you/how often have some activities together, (rent) a movie, a walk...?

Ever waited for her after she'd been late with a smile of happiness that she's alive, with a hug, with a kiss?

I feel sorry for her... She needs (beside boundaries, persistency) love, SHOWING LOVE...

Sorry... couldn't help it... but, please, please think a bit this way, through her eyes, and her bleeding heart...

[ January 06, 2005, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: Belonging to Nowhere ]

I've tried to read all the posts but it is quite a long thread. Last year I went through a lot of the stuff you are going through and I parent very similarly to you, I was on my own raising them with no financial or emotional support from their dad. I found it was easier to give in than to set boundaries or follow through with punishment. Also sometimes when I warned them the punishments were things they knew I would not or could not follow through. It is easier to give in, I know. After this summer however I had to put my foot down and it was not easy but now they have a step-father and he is strict. Enforcing the rules/boundaries were the worst, she raged big time and did many of the things your d is doing minus cutting. I joined a board called www.conductdisorder.com which was a big help. Most of the kids referred to in the posts are ODD, ADHD, ADD or BP. My d isn't and was just going through bad teenage time.

A year later, she is now 17 1/2 and on the road to recovery. I had the police over several times, I kicked her out and was forced to live at her dads which she hated so she begged to come home. She told me a bunch of crap she knew I wanted to hear but held her to them. She agreed to go to counselling, was on curfew probation for 2 mths and is never late her curfew would be increased by an hour. If she was late then the 2 mths started over again. I told her if she ran away to go, the law can't make her come back so there is nothing I can do to stop her. I told her if she did not like the rules in our house she could go back to her dads. I also mentioned to her that when she had nowhere to go none of her "so called" good friends could help her.

We kept telling her that we loved her and wanted her to stay home but that she had to abide by the rules. She finally told me that she misses me and that I never seem to have time for her anymore (I have a toddler). I promised to make Wednesday nights our night (step-dad has pool night), no plans allowed unless she was working. I also took her to a couple of OHL games(Ontario Hockey League, went shopping etc and she is in counselling, so am I but separately. She eventually dropped all of her "bad friends" that got her into drugs and bad attitude. She told me not to push her to stop drugs, she would do it on her own when she was ready and she did.

The difference is that she was always a good girl with an attitude but knew right from wrong. She had a good head on her shoulders and I trusted her 100%. She broke that trust and lied to me so good I actually gullibly believed all of it so I was devastated. I was told she would probably have to hit rock bottom before I could her back. I was desperate to save my d, I was not eating, sleeping or functioning, I lost weight and I cried constantly.

The turn around has just recently occurred, she has met a nice young man who has a bad past but has overcome it all after the birth of his d. He has made mistakes but is now turning his life and my d too. I now trust her again although my H does not, he expects the worse again and is constantly throwing little digs at me about having the wool pulled over again, I don't believe it, maybe I am naive.

Pls check out the website I mentioned, they deal with all of these issues and are a great support group. As for suicidal threats, if she threatens suicide put her in the car and take her to the emerg, don't take it lightly especially with her being a cutter already. The razor blade incident is not to be taken lightly, one of you could end up hurt.

I hope things go better for you soon, I know it is hard, I am still walking on eggshells around my d to avoid blow ups but she is following the rules. She has also applied to college so I am very hopeful, I was told by many that once they reach adulthood is when you can finally become friends with your d, I might be reaching that soon.

Marie

Marie,

Thanks for the post and the website suggestion. I'll check it out. My daughter has been diagnosed with ADHD, ODD, and some for of depression which I can never remember the clinical term.

Actually, until she hit puberty, she was very good-hearted and very caring. Did she follow directions--no, never for any length of time. But the ADHD is a big part of that. She has to be re-re-reminded.

Then puberty hit, and her struggles in school got much worse because she was almost in middle school. She struggled with eating issues in 6th grade and by middle school was failing in classes. By 8th grade she was cutting class. And because she didn't fit with the "in" crowd, her friends changed, and then it sort of all fell apart slowly from there. The final straw--her dad found the OW, started drinking again, and left the marriage and basically ignores her now.

And two of his main reasons for leaving were that I didn't keep the house clean enough, and his kids (mainly her) didn't respect him. So she probably feels partly to blame (and in a sense, she may be--but he IS still her biological father and should have been there, no matter how difficult she was.)

She also seemed to have a fairly good head on her shoulders when she was younger, and because she's so strong-willed, her teachers and I figured she would be able to not get sucked into things she didn't believe in. But when her friends changed, so did her attitudes about things like drinking and smoking and sex, and the strong-willed personality is working against her.

I do TRULY believe she is not using drugs, and I know her boyfriend, other than perhaps some occasional pot use (which I am not aware of--just assuming), doesn't either. However, he DOES drink, and she is on him constantly about it. I keep reminding her of the hurt that comes from loving a drinker.

She is difficult--but I don't want to give her up. I love her. And when she IS at home, sometimes we have really good conversations where she really opens up to me about her friends and what they do, and she'll show me posts they've left on her online journal and stuff. She just won't open up to me, or her therapist, about her own feelings, or her hurts, and stuff. She plays "tough".

With the snow we've had this week and the schools being closed until today, she's been fairly cooped up. She's not helped much around the house, but she has been fairly loving and talkative. So I've let her go out tonight with her boyfriend to one of his shows. She is to be home by 12:30am--her weekend curfew.

I may get hammered by some posters here for letting her go based on her past history, but I still feel she deserves a reward for being good this week. She was warned that if she is not home by curfew, I will continue to make the consequences longer and tougher.

LL

Belonging to Nowhere,

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> You should have found the way to share yours and her pain together, to heal together, to grow together!

Didn't read - do you (how often) you say to her - I love you, you're precious to me?
<hr /></blockquote>Thought that was fairly self explanatory in my posts, from all my saying that no matter what she does, I love her and don't want he taken from me.

Of course I tell her I love her!!! Daily--more than once! I hug her, as often as she lets me. I rub her shoulders when she's sitting at my computer, or play with her hair, because she likes that. I manicured her nails last weekend.

And yes, when she's come home way past curfew, though I'm angry and she knows I am, there are very few times I've met her at the door yelling. I generally always tell her I'm glad she's home, but that I'm angry. The yelling and fighing starts when I begin to enforce consequences.

I know the pain she's been through. And I have offered help. I've tried to be there, but she's more comfortable sharing her pain with her friends than with me (and I don't think that's uncommon for teens--they identify strongly with their peers). I've offered her therapy. She didn't like her last therapist (which is #2), so we're going to see #3 this coming Thursday for the first time.

In a very angry moment about a week ago, my daughter screamed at me that we need to have family therapy. Sooo...

I've asked the clinic to set up this therapy so that I can be a part of it, instead of just having just her meet with the therapist and me not being involved. They're going to try and still bill it as her therapy for insurance purposes, since my insurance won't pay for "family therapy". We'll see how this one goes. There aren't that many therapists here in the city who work specifically with adolescents. We're eventually going to be through them all.

I understand how you might have thought I was being cold. But no, I really do show love. In fact, I think because I want so much to show both kids how much I love them, it makes it really easy for them to walk on me.

LL

Hi Lordslady,

As you can see, I haven't posted very much (not since discovering my husband's affair a year ago). But I have been lurking and have been following you and your story and something about your situation with your daughter compels me to write.

First, ((((((LL)))))) for this entire past year. I think you are a woman of great strength.

Your daughter sounds like my brother at that age. He was never diagnosed with ADHD, but he really struggled with an inability to focus or concentrate and he sort of glided through life on autopilot. At around 16 he began to get mixed up in the wrong crowd and make some really self-desructive choices: drinking, smoking, drugs, and some pretty intense negative spiritual stuff. My parents tried everything, but it didn't seem to help. He got kicked out of public school, and they got him into a Christian high school. He just became the ringleader of the "bad crowd" there and got kicked out again.

The hardest thing my parents had to do was sit down with my brother and tell him that while they loved him, he was not welcome in their home while he was continuing his current lifestyle. They said it was his choice, but that if he wanted to stay home, he had to abide by their rules.

My brother chose to leave. As he was under 18, he went into a government-run group home. It was a horrible place. A run-down house filled with other troubled kids in a really scary part of the city in the middle of a Canadian winter. He had run-ins with his housemates. He got scabies.

My parents were in contact with him frequently by phone and went to visit him often and take him out for supper. But they always made it clear that he was welcome to come home only if he made some changes.

After about a month, he had had enough. The beckoning independence of life on the streets, doing what he wanted while collecting social assistance didn't seem so bright when it was staring him straight in the face. So he came home.

It wasn't an overnight turnaround. But he got rid of the offensive stuff in the house. He started going to school again.

Tonight, almost seven years later, our family celebrated his wife's birthday. She is pregnant with their first child. He is getting straight As in university. They are committed Christians.

When I think of your daughter, I think of my brother and how those dark, dark days seemed endless. I don't have advice, but I guess I want to tell you that there is hope. God worked a miracle in my brother's life, and I know he can do the same in your daughter's.

God bless you. I am thinking of you.

Dear Lordslady, it isn't important what I think/thought... but what your daughter does...

Yes, kids can walk on parents if seeing a lot of love WITHOUT boundaries, rules, discipline... Kids crave for them... giving in means to them - not caring enough, being indiferreent, being not so important to their parents...

It's (almost) the same with us...
E.g. my X was never jealous (never shown)... for him it's - it's easier, not headache thinking where I might have been, close your eyes and problem will disappear... for me it's - he doesn't care where I was, he needs me just as 'an inventory' in the house, to contribute to paying bills...

I agree this moght be way out sample... but the essence I hope you get...

My true best wishes to your daughter and you!

Since I've posted so many negative posts about my daughter, I wanted to take a moment and post a somewhat positive one (knowing as soon as I post it, she'll probably do something totally wrong again.)

After the two-day "house arrest" last weekend she has done a good job following curfews AND being civil. Of course the snowstorm this week did limit her ability to get out, but she did go out a couple nights with her boyfriend and was back before curfew.

Friday night she told me in advance she was going to see her boyfriend's band play, told me who she was going with, and agreed to be home at 12:30am.

I got a call at 7pm asking if she could spend the night with the girl she went to the show with. I hesitated, but remembered how she always says I won't let her stay and that's why she does things behind my back.

I decided there was really no reason she couldn't stay, and asked for the other girl to be put on the phone. I cleared the plans with her, and told her Kaitlin had to be home by around noon Saturday. She told me who was staying at her house and said they were going there after the show.

Saturday rolls around. Kait wasn't home at noon, but called me about fiften minutes later to say they were currently without a car but that when the girl's mom returned with a car, they'd be home--though it would be a brief stop because she was going sledding (something I'd okayed for Saturday afternoon already).

She checked in at home, went sledding, and was back in the house by probably 9:30pm last night.

And today, XH/OW asked her to come over for the first time in almost 2 months. So she's with them and should be home soon.

Although she's not done much to keep the place clean, she has done a couple things, and because she's done well on the curfews and checking in with me, I have praised her for it.

It was nice to have a fairly calm week.

LL

Yup, knew it. As soon as I post something good...

She extended her 10:30pm curfew (school-nite curfew) to 12:30am (her weekend curfew time) tonight because she was at her friend's house and wanted to watch a movie they rented.

Not as major of an infraction as she usually pulls, but nevertheless, she did disobey and by far more than 15 minutes.

So...this time I'm not pulling phones. She's grounded all day Saturday and all Saturday night. I hope the movie tonight was worth it.

LL

I wanted to post about a "rule" we had in my house when mine were under 21. They could not spend the night with anyone unless the parents called. Even though it was a rule, my oldest tested it with the "it's so embarrassing" talk, but I wouldn't give in. Guess what, the boys parents were out of town. He was also a dead give away as he had spent the night away maybe 2 times in his life (he was 16-17 at the time). My youngest (the social butterfly and ADD), was always having someone spend the night and spending the night away. The parents always called first.

This calling like that in the middle of the night out is usually about nothing but beating curfew. I know about this trick.

I know it is hard to start some of these rules mid-stream, but you might want to consider this one.

By the way, fortunately mine were always good about meeting curfew.

I had a saying about raising teenagers and that was you better hope the "bluff" worked with them, because if they decided to defy you, there wasn't really much you could do. I am a firm believer that if you really made believers out of them, the "bluff" would work. If you threaten, you MUST follow through or they will call your bluff in little steps til they get it figured out. If you told them not to walk out the door, you couldn't tie them to their bed if they decided they were going.

I would suggest you figure out where things need changing, decide what the "rules" will be and sit her down and talk to her about them and why. When I say what needs changing - you need to look at the biggies and not every little thing. We really didn't have too may rules in our house, but the boys knew we were serious about the rules we did have.

I will give you an example of a rule or way of life we had in house and my sons social circle(a lot of good parents), when my oldest got his drivers license I almost freaked. Not because he was driving, but my boys had never been anywhere without an adult with them. If they went to the movie, a parent went, if they went bowling, skating, a party - a parent went with them (did not drop them off). My youngest son's group had parties all their life, believe me when I say social butterflies. But, they were at houses with parents present and the parents were conferred with and confirmed.

It's hard, but try to set some of the important rules, and REMEMBER - Good behavior and following rules is expected. It does not need to be rewarded.

LL,

You are doing really well. Your daughter is learning very quickly that you mean what you say. Now she is just testing you a little more. This is to be expected. Don't yell or lose your temper, just tell her she made her decision and there will now be consequences.

You are doing a wonderful job! Keep it up. My guess is that your little girl is starting to have some increase in her self esteem, too.

LL

I am just kind of curious about how your little girl is doing. You seem to be doing very well. Please update when you have a chance.

**bumping**

<<<<Elan in the cheering section from the couch!>>>

Okay...latest update.

Things are not perfect by any means. We have a long way to go, but they aren't horrible either right now.

It's still darned near impossible to get her to do anything around the house. She FINALLY loaded the dishwasher after I protested and let things sit on the counter for 4 days and we were down to using plastic silverware.

But she did pretty well with curfews all last week, because she had something special she wanted to do on Friday night at one of her girlfriend's houses.

So I debated letting her stay the night on Friday, because she was to be grounded all day Saturday for breaking a curfew several days ago, but decided there was "improvement" so she went.

I think it was a rather unsupervised sleepover, and maybe shouldn't have allowed it, but I did know where she was going, and I told her I was stopping in mid-evening to bring snacks and check up on her. She didn't object--more progress--because normally she wouldn't want me anywhere near her friends place.

So I played "Domino's delivery dude" and showed up with buffalo wings at just before 10pm. She was there and answered the door. I know they were hiding guys from me, but I know one from the cars out front that one was her boyfriend. And I already know what I'm dealing with there--and my keeping her from staying at Amanda's isn't going to prevent everything with the boyfriend.

Saturday morning her friend dropped her off at the XH's place because A) this was the night she was grounded and couldn't do anything anyway, and B) he hasn't seen her in forever and they offered to have her spend the night. You can see my other post for how well that went.

If I were her, I might never offer to stay with them again, but she loves him and is much more forgiving than his son who doesn't even want to see him. She and her boyfriend are going to a Dutch town close to here tomorrow because there's no school, and picking up some yummy pasteries. She wants to bring some back to me and to her dad as well.)

And today, her boyfriend picked her up and they went to one of his shows. She hasn't been home for more than a few minutes all weekend, but she's done well keeping in touch with me.

And we had our first appointment with the new IC on Thursday. I doubt my daughter liked her, because she didn't confirm that I'm crazy like my daughter expected her to when she told her of my pulling all the phones out of the house a couple weeks ago. The IC just said "did she do this as a consequence for something you did?" Daughter admitted I did, but argued that it was a stupid consequence. She didn't get far with the IC on that one!

But one of the things that DD kept bringing up is that I yell at her. This is true, but generally only when she's really ticked me off for breaking one of my rules. I was very open about my anger issues during the last year when XH was having the affair and still living at home or coming around, and the doors I kicked in anger, etc.

I'm hoping that sitting in on therapy with my DD and being totally open in front of her about my own shortcomings will help her open up a little as well.

At any rate, this therapist wants to see us weekly right now. It's tough to pull off 2+ hours away from work, but if it helps, it will be worth it. This is the first time a therapist has offered to see us that often and it's also the first time I've been able to go to therapy with her. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

So...fairly long update that really doesn't say much except that things aren't going crazy right at this second.

LL