I wasn't suggesting that YOU home school. I did suggest you spend more time at home -maybe telecommuting those afternoon hours, so you could better supervise your daughter. Just a thought.

I was actually explaining why I did know what I am talking about.

Somehow we got off on the wrong foot...

I'm NOT putting you down. I'm trying to encourage you to set better boundaries with your daughter and focus more on yourself, than what you do for her. The money issue is one you can totally control, at least as far as you giving her money. Chores at home should be a required item, she needs to learn to be responsible. They (chores) should be linked to her going out/socializing. (I'm a firm believer that the best social experiences children can have are with adults - parents, mentors, etc.)

I'm a total wreck at relationships - but I'm a great parent <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (my one redeeming quality). So, I thought maybe this was a thread I could actually HELP on.

I can see where you are trying, I just honestly believe your daughter needs more stringent rules and serious enforcement of them.

as a 14 year old - I remember tying up a neighbor girl (with other kids) until she could learn to be nice... not suggesting it, it was just one of those wayward thoughts I remember doing as a kid. She didn't have near the attitude after that, and her children are some of my kids friends now. She remembers that as a turning point. She was headed for drugs and trouble (a real bully), and she grew up very responsible after that.

Okay - I'm going back to my room now... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Jan

Oh My LL...sounds like you've had a horrid couple of days... {{{{HUGE HUGS}}}}}

When reading these posts...really listen to what everyone is saying. I know it's hard to take some of it, but you really need to read between the lines:

She was good for two days so I let her go ----yes, it was a reward, BUT before she went out the door did you have the Who, What, Where, When, Why and How? (I snicker here because I remember having little cards typed up and my daughter HAD to fill out the blanks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> A couple of cards later she KNEW I was serious). That way, if the curfew was reached, I would DRIVE over there and pick her up. Nothing is MORE embarassing than having your MOM pick you up. It's called Boundaries. She pulled the trick of NOT being where she said she was. I pulled out my list of the phone numbers of ALL her friends (believe me...she gave me a couple and I got the REST). I would sit and dial up EVERY ONE of her friends (and of course they would give me additional numbers) -- she learned in a hurry that when I said midnight, I MEANT MIDNIGHT.

It's hard to take control -- but you CAN do it. Clearly state the punishment of being late BEFORE she goes out. My kid knew that if I had to drive to pick her up when she was late, her grounding would be longer!

Think about changing the work hours possibly. Can she NOT take public transport home? My kid does and she HAS to check in (I have caller ID so I know if she's calling from home or not). If she wants to go out after that, it's pre-arranged. If you can cut out the one step you can at least get home at a decent time. Remember that consistency is very hard to achieve as a single parent, but it does pay back big time.

Sit down and have ONE meal a day with her. No matter HOW rushed you are, having dinner at 8 or later doesn't do either of you any good. See if you can get home earlier, least you can be there to at least supervise with homework and have a meal together.

LL -- what really are the issues here? What is MOST important to you and what are issues that you can let go? (part of the book -- How to deal with your acting up teenager). Sit down and write a list down of the behaviours that drive you insane and lets get help working out an action plan for those.

She had TWO good days! BRAVO! It's a start! And YOU worked hard on being consistent! That's terrific! It takes time and patience. It will be two steps forward and three steps back, but it is still working towards something better for both of you! Please don't think that you have been a failure in this -- you are learning and you will handle the next time differently now won't you?

So -- the next time she's late -- what are you going to do?

Will respond more later after I've found myself a keyboard that works better than this one.

However, one thing my daughter yelled at me during our ugly discussion last night: "Great, Dad abandoned me. Now you're going to, too!!"

LL

wow! she's getting it....

you can follow up with --> "I love you, but I will not allow you to be disrespectful to me."

Consistency and remember YOU are the one in control here. You are the one being the parent and raising her right. It's not a matter of "my way or the highway"...but boundaries that are healthy and respectful for you BOTH. That's NOT abandonment.

{{{{{huge hugs}}}}}} <---- hang in there!!!!

She is lashing out b/c of the feeling of being not in control of her life...her life has taken so many twists and turns. She does perceive abandonment and that's why imho, she's acting out so badly.

I think she is really saying to you that she wants you to be firm and show love.

I would seek a counselor on this one. A really good psychologist even rather than a counselor this time.

And yea, still she will be a teenager who wants to branch out, have their own space, do their own thing, etc. That combined with the fact she is not happy with the runoff from the divorce is making your life and her sitch difficult.

Heck, it must be hard enough having a teen period and then having to factor in a teen dealing with the fallout from their dad's selfish actions and feelings of abandonment as well. She does feel he abandoned her.

This is why I think it's time to call in the troops here at MB like you've done...but also get a really good psychologist that can help you stay strong and tough and help her too.

We are praying. in the meanwhile, be the firm but loving one. Remember, Dr. Dobson has some great books out there...including Love Must Be Tough for parents as well...he's right...love must be tough!

LL ---

Something occurred to me. When my older daughter was about 15, she came in one night and said, "Mom, I think you trust me too much. I need stronger rules here." I thought about it, and said, "What do you mean?" She replied that she felt pretty good about her limits, when I expect her home and stuff like that, but she was kind of iffy on who she could have as friends. I said, "well, so far you've never brought home anyone I seriously disapproved of, so I don't see a problem. Is there one that I don't know of?" And she replied, "Remember that guy who came home with us last week? He doesn't really have the same values we do." I thought about it for a minute and told her that when he was in my presence, he appeared to be very mature, wholesome, friendly, kind and polite. So if he was otherwise when she wasn't with me, she needed to stop hanging with him. We discussed the limitations that she was indicating and she said she didn't feel right telling him he couldn't come with them "because she said" but if I told her that she couldn't have friends who were drinkers or smokers she would be able to hold that boundary. So, I made a restriction that she couldn't have friends who were drinkers and smokers.

My point is that children want and need boundaries, and when we don't set them as the adults, then we are not only enabling our children to "go wrong" but we are not fulfilling our duty as parents.

Had I ever seen that kind of behavior, I could have said, "I don't want you hanging with 'Tony' anymore." But I hadn't seen it in him. So, I needed to give her a limitation that was viable for her to judge her friends by. She already knew that anyone who used drugs was a problem, but we hadn't focused specifically on drinking and smoking, because in my friends that is a legal acceptability.

You know what, I'm more prone to not hang out with people who smoke and drink, since we made that rule for her. (At least during times when they are likely to be smoking and drinking.) This is an important note. I don't just tell my children something THEY need to follow. I behave largely within those same guidelines.

If I want my children to spend their time at home reading, exercising, listening to quality music, and being the kind of person I am - I try to spend time at home doing those things with them.

We go to church every Sunday, which influences where they find their friends. I would NEVER EVER NEVER NEVER EVER EVER have allowed my child at ANY age to go out for NYE with friends who may possibly have been drinking. NOT HAPPENING. NOT an option, not a possibility. My 19 year old CHOSE where to spend NYE this year, and she spent it with friends, in a quiet evening at home, watching movies and welcoming in the new year. She got those values from being RAISED With those values.

Hugs,

Jan

<small>[ January 02, 2005, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: *seekingjoy* ]</small>

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
You are a wonderful mother .

I have read all the posts and replies but not been able to focus my thought and any advice as my situation is very similar. I have been estranged from all my children (older teens and young adults now) as the unimaginable mess of the divorce for most people has swirled through this family, leaving four hurt, confused children in a family torn apart.....and this has been going on for 6 years.

The X alienates the children not only from me, but each other, so there are constant issues with one or another being hurt and abandoned. Trust is non existant between anyone.

Two of my children have ADHD and probable mood disorders and I have been very consistent and things work much better when boundaries are understood and preset consequences imposed........until the X again wants this or that child in his life and the child is seduced with very expensive rewards to conflict with me about "rules" in my home...and his door then opens to them until neither he or the kid can manage and both are drowning and the child is falling apart and possibly suicidal.
If their father could actually provide any parenting rather than seducing the child away from me and my way of parenting (limits, values, boundaries and expectations for personal responsibility..all of which are totally absent in his home), then abandoning them when they engage in self destructive behaviours with no rules and boundaries because that is what it is in his home, I would easily walk away, but this is not the case and when they are cast aside as they do no match up to X's expectations for "bragging rights" without doing any parenting, they are thrown away, the interventions I have chosen to put into place have been huge......as the damage is greater each and every time to the 2 younger children.

The advise I can give you is this, for what it is worth.

1)She has a job which is to go to school. If she is not doing her job, then you will only provide very minimal and basic basic needs which are food, clothing and shelter. If she is not doing her "job" then she loses her freedom to go out and be with her friends. In other words she has to earn this.

If she is going to school then time limits are needed for her to be out both on a school night and during the weekend. What I do with my 18 yo daughter is this. If she is late, she simply cannot go out the next weekend. It is non negotiable and pre determined and understood. NO exceptions or wriggle room.

If she threatens to harm herself , a trip to the hospital happens. THis happened 2X and not since then when they told her I was correct to bring her in, even though she was simply threatening and "fighting " with me.

Call her on her behaviour and try your best to WALK away when she starts her "I hate you, evil witch stuff"...been there done and still doing that. I do not let this get to me 99 times out of a 100.

My daughter has been in therapy for a loooooooooooong time and each time I have concerns as to what I am doing or if something is not "sitting" right, I speak to her therapist. This is something that might be helpful to you.

If she is still defiant and totally oppositional and still cutting the only question I have for you is what can you do to get her the help she needs? A group home may not be the answer, perhaps a shorter wilderness program.... (I speak from where I already have been and done that with a emotional growth school...and had to fight to make this happen when X was totally opposed and I was the problem ,not the kid!!!)

It is a nightmare, but unlike my marriage, for me parenting is for life, at least it is until my children can function independently..and I will do whatever it is I need to to .and that is my goal I am STILL struggling with .

<small>[ January 02, 2005, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: amnow.ok ]</small>

LL

I am going to appraoch this, by giving you a recent, (tonight) and perfect example of what I go through, to get where I need to with my daughter.. (and this was "MY" way of handling something that came about spontainiously, with my spontainious reaction... and I reacted out of pure (at first) ANGER.. and then came the calm, and then a REAL TALKING TO)

I have a kid who loves piercing her ears! and I hate it.. But she keeps defying me, and goes to get more wholes, behind my back.. sooooooo! tonight while sitting down for dinner together, (which does not come around that often on her schedual of working and school..) and her boy friend was here for the show.. I noticed YET ANOTHER WHOLE!!! and this one was in the MIDDLE of the ear.. not a normal spot.. so I was horrified, and steaming.. I lost it, (at first) and it quickly escalated to a blow out!! THEN I tried to use rationalism, and calmed down to talked to her but then SHE could not calm down, after I had already riled her up.. so we kept arguing.. then I punished her (IN FRONT OF HER BOY FRIEND) and she got up from the table, and went to storm out of the house, (she has her lisence) and grabbed her keys... well I then grabbed her, to stop her from leaving, and (her perception was) that I was going to hit her.. (I was merely going to stop her..) OK, so now I did stop her, and then said, to her boy freind, lets go, I am taking you home. and she said, I am not coming, because while your gone, I am going to run away.. so THERE FOR I said, WRONG!!! now your coming with us to drop him off, so lets go and WHILE I HAD HER IN MY CAR after I dropped him off, we had a long long long long talk... and beleive it or not we bonded even more..

it wound up to lead us to so many issues we both have with each other.. I told her calmly how much I am concerned about her and that I love her and had wanted so much more for the both of us, in creating a better realtionship, but how can I do that if I can not trust her or see her making an effort or make any REAL changes towards that for us too.. and that she can only go forward if she chooses to.. but this kind of behavior, took those few steps she had made forward, back quite a few pegs. and now we are back to square one.. and that I hate this and wish I did not have to punish her any more at this stage in life, but it seems she is not showing me ANY SIGNS of improvement...

well that lead to so many other issues that we continued talking (and as far as I am concerned, bonding) even deeper this very night, then we have in a long time.. but I also included that this talk, was the best thing that has happened between us is so long, that I wanted her to promise to talk to me on a weekly basis.. and THATS part of her PUNISHMENT.. lol!!

we are going to have a weekly therapy session at home, to get things off our chests.. no holding back! to me that was progress.. huge progress.. once I get her talking, she devulges alot of stuff thats been going on in her life, that she keeps quiet about.. and those are the moments I now treasue, AND TOLD HER THAT.. I want so much to feel close again, AND I TOLD HER THAT TOO..

persistance!!!! persistance!!!! persistance!!!!

and in the end.. it was not the peircing that killed me most, (although I hate how it looks) she is coming around to being a better person. and I KNOW that I am the one who has contributed to that, because I force her to talk.. even if it escalates to yelling.. to get it all out and never hold anything in that can CAUSE resentment between us.. The earrings are not whats important.. SHE IS.. so I told her whats important is that she TALKS TO ME, AND INCLUDES ME IN HER EVERY DAY THOUGHTS AND DECISSIONS.. and try to make me feel like she cares as much as I do..

In the end, after our discussion tonight.. her punishment was to clean her closet, (which "is" a true a mess) and no going out for a week.. (thats alot for her) to make up for keeping this peircing from me, and going behind my back like she did..

we have not gotten physical for a long long time.. and I felt horrible in having to physically stop her from leaving.. but I was NOT GOING TO ALLOW HER to drive off, mad, and maybe get into an accident.. and her perception of what went down, was so abstract, as to why I was so angry, that I had to finish out and clear up why I reacted the way I did, and make her understand from my possition.. as her mother..

I told her as long as we talk things out and TRY to get along, our relationship will only grow from it, and get stronger, and living together will run a heck of alot smoother, and given some time and effort, she will begin to hear see and feel this as well..!

LL,

beleive me, I know it is hard.. any one who has teens, knows it is hard, but fight with her tooth and nail if you have to, and never give up.. or let things go.. talk to her straight.. and make her aware of all your expectations, rules and regulations, morals and values.. talk about your past as a teen as well, even if you have to admit some of your own mistakes.. heck, here we are as adults still making mistakes!! but we are also trying hard to learn from them and correct them.. and she should hear that too.. after all, as the old saying goes, we are "all" only human, and there is no one perfect. and being a parent is by far "THE" hardest job of all..

I am done.. and I sorry that this post was so long.. but it was also great to vent, as well as hopefully help in a time of need..

keep up the good work LL.. you will not regret it, once you see that it is working.. it just takes time.. but you will see..

sincerely
AV

Okay--have a new keyboard so all the typos are strictly just my mess-up's now.

So much I would like to respond to, but its late so will try and be brief (not sure that's possible for me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

First - DD update: She was grounded Sat/Sun. I didn't leave the house until this morning when I went to work. No phones until Sunday night. Did let her play computer games. We talked some. I manicured her nails. Her boyfrield evidentally got worried late Sunday when he'd not been able to get ahold of her all weekend and showed up at our house. Since it was the end of the day and he'd driven all the way across town, I let him stay and visit. Just didn't let hear leave.

One more thing she said to me before we went to bed Sunday night was said, I believe, meant as an "I'll run away if I have to" threat but she said she'd do whatever she needed to do to stay out of a group home. I just wonder if she keeps pushing and pushing me as a test to make sure I'm not going to leave her like her dad did, but not realizing the seriousness of what she is doing.

So, I made calls today and have her set up with another new therapist. A MSW is the best I could do, but this woman works for the therapy group we used to go to a couple years ago. The psychiatrist that heads up the place is VERY good and used to be a pediatrician before he specialized in childrens and adolescent therapy, so if she would ever decide to try meds, he's a good person to have prescribing them. He's just VERY hard to get in to see--you usually schedule about 6 months in advance.

Actually I told the scheduling person my story and how I wanted to be actively involved in more of a "family therapy" approach instead of her just doing the one-on-one with the therapist. They said they can try that, but since my insurance doesn't pay for family therapy, they'll bill it as HER therapy and I'm just a part of it. So, we'll see how this one goes. Our intake appointment is a week from Thursday. That's the soonest I could get.
-----------------------------------------------

Now, a few responses to your posts:

TR - I was overly down on myself last week, but I do often feel "stupid", for lack of a better term. Intellectually I'm not dumb (though you can't tell by the way I type.) But there are so many things I lack that I just wonder why anyone would want to be around me at all, other than because they feel they have to be.

Along with feeling like I rather stink at motherhood--at least with my daughter...

I feel I don't have much to offer. I want to be domestic--but I'm not--not in a million years. I'm not organized (I see where DD's ADHD may have come from. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ).

I'm not up on culture. My entire married life revolved around working often long hours, being a mom, and trying to make my husband happy as he sat in front of the TV or video games all night.

I'm not fantastically witty. I'm not all soft and curvy and sexually attractive.

And yes, the AA degree sometimes bothers me because I'm competative and I feel like the world looks down it's nose at me. But going back to college never went very far because of what a handfull my daughter has always been. I was too exhausted to be a mom, work full time, and try to take classes to finish my degree. And in reality, the lack of a degree wasn't a handicap in my current job and won't be in the one I'm taking, because I have a long history working for one company and a long business relationship with the other.

But still...I feel inadequate or almost like I'm a bother to others, someone they are forced to tolerate--not like I'd make a fine catch for some guy someday.

*seekingjoy* - yes, I agree, wrong foot. Sorry. And I truly do think homeschooling has huge benefits, and I did think that was your suggestion. It does enable you to have far greater control over who your child's friends are. I am in a tough situation because my DD goes to an alternative school. ALL the kids there--100% of them--have issues of some kind, or they wouldn't be there. So she's constantly surrounded by not-great influences.

But an alternative school was better in my eyes than no school at all (which also isn't even a legal option until she turns 16).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I want my children to spend their time at home reading, exercising, listening to quality music, and being the kind of person I am - I try to spend time at home doing those things with them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unfortuately, they grew up in a home with none of the above. Envision lots of noise from blaring TV (XH is hard of hearing due to never wearing ear protection while he worked), everyone yelling above everyone else, dogs being teased and running around barking, metal rock or rap being the music played in cars because that's what XH and kids like, people bickering and XH saying "f-ing this and f-ing that". Not a great example of calm and respect!

So now that I'm by myself, I'm doing these things (minus the exercise <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ) for ME, but haven't been able to get the kids to join in yet. I watch nearly zero TV, I listen to quite a bit of contemporary Christian music or classical, I don't smoke, I enjoy a rare glass of wine, and in general I'm trying to fill myself with things that are "good and pure" because what goes in DOES make a difference of what comes out of us.

She refuses to go to church with me but I talk about my beliefs when I have the chance with her. I can't beat my values into them (and I have a LOT of growing to do myself!!), but I'm just hoping that maybe some of my example may eventually rub off on them. (I resented my mom greatly for making me go to church, and eventually she didn't make me go very often as a teen, but I am thankful that I had the early introduction. I had a base...my kids do, too. And it's what I came back to in my early 20's--thank goodness!)

Elan,

I'm really trying to get the WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHERE and WHY before I let her go. The problem seems to be that she switches from the person she left home with to another friend somewhere during the evening and it's those plans that never get to me in advance. I'm hoping the aforementioned therapy can help us resolve some of this.

Public transportation - not available in the area of her school. It's at the edge of the suburbs, in in an industrial area. No buses run there--pretty much only cement trucks.

Work hours are an issue because I am her transport to school, and school doesn't start until 8:45. It's another 1/2 hour+ (especially in winter) to work. Then I have to leave work each day at 11:30, pick her up and drop her at home, and then drive back to work. That's another 1.5 hours on a good day. So in order to just work 8 hours, I'm there until 6:45pm. And it's another 1/2 hour home.

If/when she ever learns to drive and maybe gets a school permit (then that presents two more issues--a car, and insurance) she could drive herself and I'd be able to work more normal hours. Right now it's all me. XH was picking her up 3 days/week at noon, but once OW got a job, that stopped because they only have one car.

So I did talk to her about trying to pick a night so we could at least eat together once per week, but we'll see if that happens.

As for what's important--the curfew thing is my biggest issue. I want to know she's safe. I hate the lack of help around the house and the messes she leaves, but they come in second to curfew and respect violations.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you can follow up with --> "I love you, but I will not allow you to be disrespectful to me." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am trying to follow up some of her threats and statements with similar comments.

amnow.ok--I'm going to pursue more therapy. Trying a different therapist. And going to go to therapy with her in hopes that we can learn TOGETHER how to be a functional family.

numbheart--You are so right about how important it is to talk, to be open, with your teen. Even after some of these really ugly situation, after she's gotten past the initial anger she will talk to me and be really open with things like "My boyfriend is acting such-and such. What do you think he means? What should I do?"

We actually had a nice little discussion just about stuff in general when I did her manicure.

And about admitting things from my own past. It's HARD--because I am NOT now who I was then. But I finally 'fessed up just a couple days ago to having slept with her father before I married him.

It was making a point about how I have a credible reason to say I believe it would be best to not be having sex before marriage--and then I told her. Hard for me to admit, because I wasn't much older than she was, but I think at least she now knows that I know what I'm talking about when I say I wish I'd have waited and I wash she'd think hard about what she's doing before she continues.

Okay, my post is WAY too long again. That's what happens when I don't respond more frequently.

But thank you for all your advice.

Maybe next weekend I'll have time to go through the posts and pull all the book suggestions and go either check some out from my library or buy a couple if they look like they'd be keepers for me.

LL

<small>[ January 04, 2005, 12:33 AM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

LL,

I think the wanting to make sure your not going to bail on her too could play a big part in this--which
is all the more reason you need to be more stringent on her--so that she knows YOU care enough to stay and work through the issues--and not run away--

I'm curious, why do you think your not worthy? Is it because you think your self-esteem comes from outside yourself and how 'other people' view you?

I realize that your a Christian, so why not focus more on who you are in Christ and what He thinks about YOU as HIS CHILD--as opposed to what you think everyone else MIGHT be thinking??

read Psalm 139; Matthew 10:29-31; Genesis 1:27;
Acts 17:26, 28; Jeremiah 1:4-5; Ephesians 1:11-12;
Psalm 71:6; John 8:41-44; 1 John 4:16; 1 John 3:1;
Matthew 7:11; James 1:17; Matthew 6:31-33; Jeremiah 29:11; 31:3; 32:40; 33:3; Zephaniah 3:17;
Psalm 37:4; Phillipians 2:13; Ephesians 3:20;
2 Thessalonians 2:16-17; 2 Corinthians 1:3-4; Psalm 34:18; Isaiah 40:11; Isaiah 53; JOhn 17:23; 17:26; Romans 8:31; 2 Corinthians 5:18-19; 1 John 4:10; 1 John 2:23; Romans 8:38-39;

I realize those are a lot of verses but I think they can help you see that you are worthy--you are worth spending time with--Shoot if the God who created the Universe desires to spend time with you--You must be worthy!!! And if others can't see that--something is wrong with THEM--not you--

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If/when she ever learns to drive and maybe gets a school permit (then that presents two more issues--a car, and insurance) she could drive herself and I'd be able to work more normal hours. Right now it's all me. XH was picking her up 3 days/week at noon, but once OW got a job, that stopped because they only have one car. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here is one thing that you can be using as a way to encourage good behavior NOW.

Driving is a Priviledge...not a "right". So many kids think that they have the "right" to drive once they reach 16.

I feel that it is a "priviledge" that I decide whether to give or not. My kids even had to earn the priviledge of getting their learner's permit.

That being said...start laying the ground work for her to earn that priviledge. Let her start earning it now...with good behavior, obeying curfews etc. Let her know that she is not far from being old enough to get a permit...but that you have to be able to trust her in order for that to happen.

As it stands right now, if you let her get that permit and then onto a license (without earning it through GOOD behavior)...I would want to {{{{shake}}}} some sense into you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Your problems are small now compared to what they will be when you put her behind the wheel of a car. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Just something to think about.

committed

Why can't you make her go to church? You put your feet under my table you go to church.

Driving is a privilege. If you want me to sign the papers, pay the insurance (or allow you to be added to my insurance and YOU pay - which is what I did), and provide a car (or help with one), then you do as I say. Come home when you are supposed to, be where you are supposed to be, and be the right kind of person.

No drinking and driving - I catch you drinking you are a minor you loose the privilege of driving until you are an adult.

I'm honestly beginning to see this as being you, the mom not willing to put forth the effort to maintain boundaries. I'm sorry, if that isn't the case, but it appears so.

You are a good mom because you provide for your children, but you aren't very good at raising them to be good people - which is your purpose.

Anybody can provide food, clothes, and a roof - social services does it all the time. But real parents have the ability to provide direction and discipline to their children when needed.

She may have given you a bargaining tool on Sunday evening - USE IT.

An alternative school can be a good thing - but you have to insist on discipline along with the education.

I'm not sure where parents get the idea that they have no right to be responsible for their children --- but it's a wrong idea. You have a responsibility to expect and enforce certain rules and disciplines for your children. It's your responsibility to train them up to be responsible adults.

Jan

*seekingjoy*,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm honestly beginning to see this as being you, the mom not willing to put forth the effort to maintain boundaries.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps a wrong interpretation by me, but again, I feel you are saying I am lazy or not trying.

You also say,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are a good mom because you provide for your children, but you aren't very good at raising them to be good people - which is your purpose. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But then go on to say,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Anybody can provide food, clothes, and a roof - social services does it all the time. But real parents have the ability to provide direction and discipline to their children when needed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Interpreted by me as: You are not living up to your purpose as a mother. You are no better than social services. You are not a "real parent".

Questions for you:

What is a "real parent"? Please define?

Will forcing my child to go to church cause her to be a Christian any faster? (or will it just cause her to be resentful and potentially disrupt the worship service for everyone else?) Would it be better for me to go, and to live as a witness, hoping that she sees what's in me and, using the base she has from going to church for many years as a child, let God work through that?

How are you able to determine how hard I'm trying?

How can you, or anyone, know what will or won't work without trying, failing, and trying something different?

Is parenting a "one way works for all kids" thing, or does it have to be tailored to each child's personality?

------------------------------------------------

No, I am not the perfect parent. And I do believe that living in an alcoholic marriage has an effect on how people turn out, both children and their parents. I have not learned good boundaries. I am trying. It's not something that will happen overnight. I can't change the world in a week.

I am trying. I have therapy appointments set up--for BOTH of us to go to together. I have enforced consequences, however weak they may seem to some.

I do not believe that giving her over to the state is in her best interests until I have exhausted all other options, and I have not done that yet. But neither will I solve everything in a week.

She's had 15 years to become who she is--she won't be turned around in 2 days.

LL

<small>[ January 05, 2005, 11:59 PM: Message edited by: lordslady ]</small>

TR,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I realize that your a Christian, so why not focus more on who you are in Christ and what He thinks about YOU as HIS CHILD--as opposed to what you think everyone else MIGHT be thinking??
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I try--I really do. And I do believe that I was made the way I am, with all my imperfections, for a purpose.

But yes, my self-worth does hinge more than it should on what others think. I want to get to a point where I can look in the mirror and say, "I don't care if the rest of the world thinks I'm a total loser, because I know I'm not." I'm not there yet...

And my self-worth is closely tied to my success as a wife and mother, because that's what I felt my purpose as a Christian woman was. I put everything that was in me into trying to do both (and work full-time to make $ to make my husband and family happy because it's what they wanted).

I failed miserably at #1, and it would appear in the eyes of the world, and in the behavior of my daughter, I'm also failing at #2. What's left?


Committed,

Driving--hmmmm, in theory it would seem a great opportunity or "bargaining chip". And it's a great point you bring up.

I have an uncommon problem, though (and actually had it to a lesser extent with my son). They actually DON'T want to get their permits and drive!!

Hard for me to understand because as a country girl at 14 years old (the age to get a permit in Iowa), I had my parents marching over with me to get my permit, I believe, on my birthday.

My daughter is 15 1/2 and has yet to even sit down and start studying for the test. Oh, she's asked in passing a few times when I'm going to take her in, but when I offer, she doesn't want to go. I think she's content to ride with others.

I'm not pushing the issue, but on the other hand, once she turns 16, if she had her permit for at least 6 months and went through drivers education, she could get her license. If we found some kind of car (no idea if XH plans to help on that, though), she could drive herself to school and back which would REALLY make things better for me and my work hours. I could work more normal hours, which would allow me to be home earlier in the evenings.

But...right now she really doesn't care. So I have to come up with other ideas. It would be a really good one for 99% of teenagers today, though!

LL

You are a great mom and a parent to your daughter.
We all are the best parents we know how to be at the time and all of us are working at doing the best job we possibly can to lead our children to become responsible adults, sometimes under very difficult circumstances.

The fact that you are reaching out for advice and help, admitting your weaknesses in providing a more positive environment to help your daughter, making changes where possible and setting up therapy appointments, to me is a source of committment and tremendous strength for which I applaud you.

I wish it was as simple as one poster suggested-setting the boundaries and consequences and then everything will fall into place, children will be responsible, respectful and hardworking. With some children it cannot and will not happen, no matter how "good" a parent is. I have been extremely consistent with all my children. After initially struggling for many years, my daughter actually did very well for 2 years, became much more responsible within the context of who she is and always will be. She got her driving licence, understanding that this was a priviledge, and I did provide a car for her use to get to school and back which freed me for other committments I could then take on. About a year ago everything came undone with no changes in my home to explain this. (Driving was prohibited under any circumstances due to her irresponsible and impulsive behaviour, car sold after 6 months of her lack of getting back to a more stable and responsible way of being) Therefore the reason for this out of control behaviour, how to address this as a parent and what to do are beyond a more traditional formula.

One needs to look at not every incident of breaking rules, but rather the patterns of behaviour to get a bigger picture and address this root cause that drives some kids to engage in self desructive behaviour, as your daughter is doing it seems.

Even with an answer(or label perhaps) a parent still needs help in dealing with the behaviour and very much choosing which battles to engage in.

My daughter's job is to go to school and finish her final year as this is her choice.If she engages in self destructive behaviour (skipping school, not completing assignments, running out at night if her work is not done .etc or anything else that prevents her from accomplishing this goal, which are many questionable activities, then there are consequences. Put in this context there is a reason for her not to engage in these behaviours....not that it always stops her, but it does cause much more respectful behaviour from her when consequences (pre negotiated) are enforced.

My motto is that as long as I do the best I can, seek all advice, guidance and intervention in my capablity and know how to do, then I will never look back with regret at a "would have could have" mind set. Whether my daughter will take the correct path will not be for want of my trying or leaving any stone unturned to point her and guide her on this route...and whatever will be, I will accept.

I do believe that many single parents on this board are dealing with difficult kids issues which have always existed for these families (ADD, ADD and various learning, behavoural and mental health issues) all of which together with the family situation simply has magnified and created increased chaos especially in single parent homes. Just my 1c worth.

<small>[ January 05, 2005, 10:35 PM: Message edited by: amnow.ok ]</small>

I'm the mom of a 3 year old boy, and very often thinking how I'll raise him, what kind of a man he'll become...
I have my fears, and I read this with a great interest...
And I don't know what's waiting for me being a divorced mom, (although, these things happen to married ones too, so it isn't just being divorced causing all troubles) and I don't know what mistakes I will make (God, don't allow me big ones!), but I have to say this:

Reading all of this made me so sad...
Yes, many good advise (boundaries, persistence, discipline, not some other ones though...), and (I might have missed) but did not read something that's very important (IMHO!):

Nobody says - poor girl!
While your H was your choice, she had no choice.
Don't get me wrong; it's the same with my son...

I didn't read your story, but I can guess what you went through... but your daughter TOO...
(You had&have MB, among other self-consolations... what did she have at the same time??)

You should have found the way to share yours and her pain together, to heal together, to grow together!

Didn't read - do you (how often) you say to her - I love you, you're precious to me?
How often you sit down and talk to her, as an adult to the adult, taking her talk with respect even if you don't agree, asking her for advise, share your fears and let her share hers, understanding her wanderings as a young woman lost in searching her own place under her cloudy sky...?
Do you/how often have some activities together, (rent) a movie, a walk...?

Ever waited for her after she'd been late with a smile of happiness that she's alive, with a hug, with a kiss?


I feel sorry for her... She needs (beside boundaries, persistency) love, SHOWING LOVE...


Sorry... couldn't help it... but, please, please think a bit this way, through her eyes, and her bleeding heart...

<small>[ January 06, 2005, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: Belonging to Nowhere ]</small>

I've tried to read all the posts but it is quite a long thread. Last year I went through a lot of the stuff you are going through and I parent very similarly to you, I was on my own raising them with no financial or emotional support from their dad. I found it was easier to give in than to set boundaries or follow through with punishment. Also sometimes when I warned them the punishments were things they knew I would not or could not follow through. It is easier to give in, I know. After this summer however I had to put my foot down and it was not easy but now they have a step-father and he is strict. Enforcing the rules/boundaries were the worst, she raged big time and did many of the things your d is doing minus cutting. I joined a board called www.conductdisorder.com which was a big help. Most of the kids referred to in the posts are ODD, ADHD, ADD or BP. My d isn't and was just going through bad teenage time.

A year later, she is now 17 1/2 and on the road to recovery. I had the police over several times, I kicked her out and was forced to live at her dads which she hated so she begged to come home. She told me a bunch of crap she knew I wanted to hear but held her to them. She agreed to go to counselling, was on curfew probation for 2 mths and is never late her curfew would be increased by an hour. If she was late then the 2 mths started over again. I told her if she ran away to go, the law can't make her come back so there is nothing I can do to stop her. I told her if she did not like the rules in our house she could go back to her dads. I also mentioned to her that when she had nowhere to go none of her "so called" good friends could help her.

We kept telling her that we loved her and wanted her to stay home but that she had to abide by the rules. She finally told me that she misses me and that I never seem to have time for her anymore (I have a toddler). I promised to make Wednesday nights our night (step-dad has pool night), no plans allowed unless she was working. I also took her to a couple of OHL games(Ontario Hockey League, went shopping etc and she is in counselling, so am I but separately. She eventually dropped all of her "bad friends" that got her into drugs and bad attitude. She told me not to push her to stop drugs, she would do it on her own when she was ready and she did.

The difference is that she was always a good girl with an attitude but knew right from wrong. She had a good head on her shoulders and I trusted her 100%. She broke that trust and lied to me so good I actually gullibly believed all of it so I was devastated. I was told she would probably have to hit rock bottom before I could her back. I was desperate to save my d, I was not eating, sleeping or functioning, I lost weight and I cried constantly.

The turn around has just recently occurred, she has met a nice young man who has a bad past but has overcome it all after the birth of his d. He has made mistakes but is now turning his life and my d too. I now trust her again although my H does not, he expects the worse again and is constantly throwing little digs at me about having the wool pulled over again, I don't believe it, maybe I am naive.

Pls check out the website I mentioned, they deal with all of these issues and are a great support group. As for suicidal threats, if she threatens suicide put her in the car and take her to the emerg, don't take it lightly especially with her being a cutter already. The razor blade incident is not to be taken lightly, one of you could end up hurt.

I hope things go better for you soon, I know it is hard, I am still walking on eggshells around my d to avoid blow ups but she is following the rules. She has also applied to college so I am very hopeful, I was told by many that once they reach adulthood is when you can finally become friends with your d, I might be reaching that soon.

Marie

Marie,

Thanks for the post and the website suggestion. I'll check it out. My daughter has been diagnosed with ADHD, ODD, and some for of depression which I can never remember the clinical term.

Actually, until she hit puberty, she was very good-hearted and very caring. Did she follow directions--no, never for any length of time. But the ADHD is a big part of that. She has to be re-re-reminded.

Then puberty hit, and her struggles in school got much worse because she was almost in middle school. She struggled with eating issues in 6th grade and by middle school was failing in classes. By 8th grade she was cutting class. And because she didn't fit with the "in" crowd, her friends changed, and then it sort of all fell apart slowly from there. The final straw--her dad found the OW, started drinking again, and left the marriage and basically ignores her now.

And two of his main reasons for leaving were that I didn't keep the house clean enough, and his kids (mainly her) didn't respect him. So she probably feels partly to blame (and in a sense, she may be--but he IS still her biological father and should have been there, no matter how difficult she was.)

She also seemed to have a fairly good head on her shoulders when she was younger, and because she's so strong-willed, her teachers and I figured she would be able to not get sucked into things she didn't believe in. But when her friends changed, so did her attitudes about things like drinking and smoking and sex, and the strong-willed personality is working against her.

I do TRULY believe she is not using drugs, and I know her boyfriend, other than perhaps some occasional pot use (which I am not aware of--just assuming), doesn't either. However, he DOES drink, and she is on him constantly about it. I keep reminding her of the hurt that comes from loving a drinker.

She is difficult--but I don't want to give her up. I love her. And when she IS at home, sometimes we have really good conversations where she really opens up to me about her friends and what they do, and she'll show me posts they've left on her online journal and stuff. She just won't open up to me, or her therapist, about her own feelings, or her hurts, and stuff. She plays "tough".

With the snow we've had this week and the schools being closed until today, she's been fairly cooped up. She's not helped much around the house, but she has been fairly loving and talkative. So I've let her go out tonight with her boyfriend to one of his shows. She is to be home by 12:30am--her weekend curfew.

I may get hammered by some posters here for letting her go based on her past history, but I still feel she deserves a reward for being good this week. She was warned that if she is not home by curfew, I will continue to make the consequences longer and tougher.

LL

Belonging to Nowhere,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You should have found the way to share yours and her pain together, to heal together, to grow together!

Didn't read - do you (how often) you say to her - I love you, you're precious to me?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thought that was fairly self explanatory in my posts, from all my saying that no matter what she does, I love her and don't want he taken from me.

Of course I tell her I love her!!! Daily--more than once! I hug her, as often as she lets me. I rub her shoulders when she's sitting at my computer, or play with her hair, because she likes that. I manicured her nails last weekend.

And yes, when she's come home way past curfew, though I'm angry and she knows I am, there are very few times I've met her at the door yelling. I generally always tell her I'm glad she's home, but that I'm angry. The yelling and fighing starts when I begin to enforce consequences.

I know the pain she's been through. And I have offered help. I've tried to be there, but she's more comfortable sharing her pain with her friends than with me (and I don't think that's uncommon for teens--they identify strongly with their peers). I've offered her therapy. She didn't like her last therapist (which is #2), so we're going to see #3 this coming Thursday for the first time.

In a very angry moment about a week ago, my daughter screamed at me that we need to have family therapy. Sooo...

I've asked the clinic to set up this therapy so that I can be a part of it, instead of just having just her meet with the therapist and me not being involved. They're going to try and still bill it as her therapy for insurance purposes, since my insurance won't pay for "family therapy". We'll see how this one goes. There aren't that many therapists here in the city who work specifically with adolescents. We're eventually going to be through them all.

I understand how you might have thought I was being cold. But no, I really do show love. In fact, I think because I want so much to show both kids how much I love them, it makes it really easy for them to walk on me.

LL

Hi Lordslady,

As you can see, I haven't posted very much (not since discovering my husband's affair a year ago). But I have been lurking and have been following you and your story and something about your situation with your daughter compels me to write.

First, ((((((LL)))))) for this entire past year. I think you are a woman of great strength.

Your daughter sounds like my brother at that age. He was never diagnosed with ADHD, but he really struggled with an inability to focus or concentrate and he sort of glided through life on autopilot. At around 16 he began to get mixed up in the wrong crowd and make some really self-desructive choices: drinking, smoking, drugs, and some pretty intense negative spiritual stuff. My parents tried everything, but it didn't seem to help. He got kicked out of public school, and they got him into a Christian high school. He just became the ringleader of the "bad crowd" there and got kicked out again.

The hardest thing my parents had to do was sit down with my brother and tell him that while they loved him, he was not welcome in their home while he was continuing his current lifestyle. They said it was his choice, but that if he wanted to stay home, he had to abide by their rules.

My brother chose to leave. As he was under 18, he went into a government-run group home. It was a horrible place. A run-down house filled with other troubled kids in a really scary part of the city in the middle of a Canadian winter. He had run-ins with his housemates. He got scabies.

My parents were in contact with him frequently by phone and went to visit him often and take him out for supper. But they always made it clear that he was welcome to come home only if he made some changes.

After about a month, he had had enough. The beckoning independence of life on the streets, doing what he wanted while collecting social assistance didn't seem so bright when it was staring him straight in the face. So he came home.

It wasn't an overnight turnaround. But he got rid of the offensive stuff in the house. He started going to school again.

Tonight, almost seven years later, our family celebrated his wife's birthday. She is pregnant with their first child. He is getting straight As in university. They are committed Christians.

When I think of your daughter, I think of my brother and how those dark, dark days seemed endless. I don't have advice, but I guess I want to tell you that there is hope. God worked a miracle in my brother's life, and I know he can do the same in your daughter's.

God bless you. I am thinking of you.