This is a bit long so please bear with me. I am an American woman married to a German man. We are both in our mid-30's. We met about a year and half ago when he was here for 6 weeks training. He had a girlfriend and a (then) 8 month old son when we met; they live in France. He & I became romantically (not sexually) involved that summer and after his training was over, he returned to Europe and moved in with his girlfriend.<P>My husband & I are both Christians; his ex is not. Their child was not planned but he did love his ex and states he think he would've eventually married her had he not met me. He does not think he would've considered marrying her if they did not have a child however. She and both families had been pressuring him to do so although he obviously wasn't in much of a rush as the child was already 8 months old when I first met him!<P>After living with his ex for 6 months, they broke up. During the time he lived with her, he often wrote me declaring his love and that he believed God's will was for us to be together although he was greatly struggling with what was the right thing to do in regards to his son. I told him to get his faith and his domestic situation in order and not to pursue me any longer.<P>After breaking up with his ex, he courted me very passionately and convinced me to marry him within a fairly short period of time. We were married last June, about a year after we first met.<P>The problem is that now that we're married he is beginning to dwell on whether or not he did the "right thing" in leaving his ex and their son. His ex desperately still wants him back and continually tells him that it's not too late for them to be a "family". She resorts to tactics such as telling him that their son will never even be able to even talk with his father if he doesn't return. (Her only common language with my husband is English which she refuses to teach their son). She makes him feel continually guilty for not spending more time with their son. She has moved 5 hours away from where they used to live and yet insists that all visits to their son take place in her presence at her home and forbids me from joining them. I have yet to meet his son! She insists that the 3 of them need to act like a "family" in their son's presence.<P>My husband admitted to me recently that he and his ex kissed on his last visit. He says he loves me and that I fulfill all his needs and he doesn't want to leave me but he is continually struggling about what's best for his son. I told him that I would need to go along on any future visits as I could no longer trust him alone with her. He did try to arrange a visit after "the kiss" and let me listen in on the phone. All went well until he told her I would be coming along at which point she said she was packing up their son and leaving town for the week I was in Europe.<P>I am very torn about what to do. Do I INSIST that he cannot visit his son unless I am with him? In my mind, I'm not telling him he can't see his son, he just can't see his ex without me along. This will however cut down on the opportunities to see his son as I am not as free to travel with my job as my husband is (he is a pilot). I am planning on moving this summer to where my husband is based so that we can spend more time together but until then...what do I do? I cannot move prior to then as I am legal guardian to my 17 year old neice who will then graduate high school. But I don't want to let 4 months go by with my husband continuing to visit them alone when an affair may be building! I wish I could cut her out of his life alltogether but as she's the mother of their child, she will always be a factor in our lives. How to handle this?

Lisa, I think even thou your h and his ex were not married she didnt look at it that way since until you came along they lived as a family. Me and my h were not married when he cheated on me and we had planned also on getting married which luckly he realized who he really wanted to spend the rest of his life with before it got the point of where your at. It sounds like he really needs to make up his mind if he wants to stay married to you or fix what he messed up on with the mother of his child. Do you and h have any children together? We also had a child together she was 4 yrs old at the time and he did choose to do what was best for his family which was we got married and are working very hard at making sure that nothing like this ever happens again. I really cant blame his childs mother for not wanting you around you stole what was hers and I am sure she has to have alot of bad feelings toward you. I really dont know what else to say I can only tell you how I felt when this happened to me. flowerseed <P>------------------<BR>`Look ahead or you will find yourself behind.

Forgive me, but I think that for all intents and purposes, you married a man who already had a wife and child, even though they were not legally married. If they had gone that extra step, you would be the ow as much as the ow we are all dealing with now. i know from reading your letter that this was not your intent, but I am sure that the mother of his child feels that way.May I suggest that you deserve better than to be put in a situation like this. As hard as it may be, I think that you need to release him (if the two of you have no children) and do what is right for the child. It's just that I believe very much in "First come, first served." Please consider that you also would probably be much happier if you were able to be with a man who did not already have a bond like this with another woman. And I dont mean to be cruel, but if h admits to a kiss with exgirlfriend, it was in reality probably more than that. Already this man cannot keep his vows to you. Set him free and find someone else.

Lisa, I am very sorry for your circumstances. But the reality is that your H has a bond with this child and this woman. It was there before you were there. You have to take that into consideration and accept the fact that you come after this child. If I were the girfriend I would definately consider you the OW who stepped in and disrupted my family. It may not have been your intent and you may have thought they were not a couple, but the fact is they were in an intense relationship that produced a child.<P>I married a man who was 8 years divorced and had a child. I always had to repect that relationship and the fact that it was more of a priority than I was. If you want a relatioship that doesn't have that type of complicity, you will have to find a man who is free from children. Your H is not. <P>If all your H wants is to send a check and not be part of childs life, then you will not have to deal with his former partner. But if he wants a relationship with child you will have to let him take the lead on that. You can find out the law on whether she has the right to withhold visitation. But in most US states she could not do that. <P>I am sorry, but I cannot "bend" my perspective on you basically being the OW. I know there are always gray areas and perhaps you honestly don't see yourself as being the interference. But he should have cleared up this relationship with his partner prior to jumping into another relationship. He ha short changed you and her with his actions. And this child will suffer due to adults acting to fill their own needs prior to taking into consideration those of the children they have brought into this world.<P>Please consider some counseling for yourself to help you through all this. I know it must be very painful. Take care... Carolyn

Thank you both for your replies. I understand both your feelings but have to very much disagree that merely having sex, even with someone you love, which results in a pregnancy is somehow automatically a marriage in God's eyes. Living together does not automatically make you married--only a conscious, deliberate commitment to pledge your lives permanently before God and your family and friends and the authorities does that. Why do you think so many people merely live together? Because at least one of the co-habitees knows in their hearts they don't want to "buy", they just want to "rent"! This site has many topics on that very topic. Living together, even with a child, is NOT the same as marriage.<P>I can't believe you think the answer is simply to give up and divorce him! Where are the Biblical grounds for that? Especially when that's NOT what he has ever asked for! He may very well have done more than he admits but I'm relatively confident he didn't as I have read all of her emails to him and vice versa. I remain committed to this marriage and am determined to save it. I love him very much. Once again, I do appreciate your position but I very much disagree that I should just give up because he made a mistake prior to meeting me.<P>I am curious how you would react if he WERE married before to his ex? Would you still say he should go back to her? Keep in mind that he & I were NOT sexually involved before he split up from her. He pursued me, not the other way around.

Lisa, if it was over between them what is he doing kissing her? No living together and having a child doesnt mean your married but I know we both planned on getting married before we actually did there are alot of reasons people live together in my case I had been screwed to many times in the past by other men and I was scared. So sorry for you and whoever else he involves in this that he hasnt really made up his mind. As far as Iam concerned it doesnt matter whether someone has sex or is just emotional involved with some that is living with someone else its wrong. flowerseed<P>------------------<BR>`Look ahead or you will find yourself behind.<P>[This message has been edited by flowerseed (edited February 02, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by flowerseed (edited February 02, 2001).]

I have to agree with flowerseed on this. My husband and I did not actually get married until 3 months after our first son was born, because of difficulties with my family at the time. But I very much considered him my husband. If your h had been married to her and then divorced her, making that conscious act to end the relationship, then perhaps the situation would be different for you. But as it stands, he is still kissing the ex, so he has not had a true resolution here. The bible does say that if a spouse is cheating, you can get a divorce. in your heart you must know that he is cheating with the kissing and with his emotions. Nobody here wants to make an already painful situation more unbearable for you. But if you have the opportunity to do for this child what the ow in our cases refuse to do for our children, I know God would want you to do so. If the ow in our case would have considered my children's well-being first, the affair would never have happened. And I am curious as to how yyou maintain the stance of "He pursued me" when you say that part of the pursuit happened when he was still living with and actively involved with the girlfriend. it's not like he had severed all ties with her before getting involved with you. any way you look at it, your relationship began with cheating and betrayal. You need to ask yourself whose needs are getting fully met by keeping this marriage intact. My guess would be nobody's.

Thank you again Flowerseed and CDCollins for your replies. I know you were both hurt by what's happened in your own lives and my heart does go out to you. My last reply was written in anger so plz forgive me if inappropriate.<P>I am curious as to what your and your husbands' relationships are with your husband's ex-girlfriend and their OC? I cannot track your whole strings to tell. Although those OC were not born until after your own marriages, those children are clearly as innocent as my husband's child that was born previous to his meeting me and thus likewise have a strong right and need to know their father. A child should not be punished for the sins of the parents. Do you want your husband see the OC regularly? Or do you try to keep away from her & the OC and resulting obligations at all costs? I do not at all begrudge my husband's child support and actually have encouraged him to send far more than we legally owe even though this does very negatively affect our own budget. I also want him to be involved with his child as much as possible.<P>Please, remember this is supposed to be a PRO-MARRIAGE forum. My husband was never married to his ex nor was he considering it if she hadn't "accidentally" gotten pregnant. (She had actually pressured him into marriage before and he had previously broken up with her the first time they were together). He is also convinced that had he married her, they would inevitably wind up divorced due to their differences. I do not believe that biological parents are compelled to marry in all circumstances--it only results in divorce if the child is the main reason and that will have a far greater negative impact on the child as he is then used to a true family living situation which radically changes. In this case, my husband lived with his son only from the time he was 9 months until 14 months old and even then, he was rarely there (maybe 10 days a month)due to his job. If my husband had been married when I met him, I would never have become involved with him on any level, not even emotionally and would absolutely agree with you on all counts. My first husband had an affair and I will never ever be part of inflicting that pain on someone else. <P>I know your personal feelings are very hurt as you were both in the ex's situation. But again, you were not married by any legal, moral or religious standard simply because you lived together. I ask again, any suggestions for how to keep my husband from possibly drifting into an affair with his ex? There is absolutely no Biblical or secular reason I can find for just giving up on my marriage when he doesn't want to and I don't want to either. But if I don't deal with this situation now,it will only get tougher down the road as I do believe he may enter into a true affair.

lisa, The ow in our case was never his girlfriend just a cheap slut trying to take someone elses family away. We have nothing to do with oc he pays support because he has to and thats it he has no desire to ever see her or her child. The oc is 1yr old now he choose not to be involved wih oc which now that I see what some of these poor wifes have to deal with I am glad. I think if your h is kissing on her you have some serious problems to deal with it really doesnt sound like he is done with the relationship with her. flowerseed<P>------------------<BR>`Look ahead or you will find yourself behind.

Ok, this time I will try to be helpful. First, make absolutely certain that you and your h approach everything as a TEAM. He has rights as far as visitation is concerned and as the child's stepmother, you do too. your h should not see her or the son without you present. probably you will have to see a lawyer to establish visitation rights for you. The ex needs to see that your h is committed to being with you and that as you are part of his life, you will also be a part of his son's life. This will also be kinder for the son as he will not be led on thinking that since his father comes to visit alone that there is a chance he and mother will reunite. I suggest you go about making your home a welcoming place for son. Most likely the first couple visits will have to be in mothers presence, but after that you will probably be allowed to have child visit with you in your own home.<BR> You are better off getting actively involved sooner rather than later. As for my situation, my h's affair didn't happen until 4 years into the actual marriage, so there was never a previous girlfriend. Please understand that all of us here are raw with grief and pain, and it is hard for us to accept that anyone could justify marrying a man in a situation such as yours. The ow in my case rationalized that since my h told her we were probably going to get divorced, it was OK to assume he was free and clear. <BR>I'm still not able to fully agree with you on this matter. I think that it is risky to "buy" a house with someone who has signed a long term lease on a "rental" apartment that he can't get out of. But please know tht I will pray for you.

Hi Lisa713,<BR>In my opinion you started something when his prior relationship was not finished. Your first post is very contradicting..in one hand you say:<BR>"Their child was not planned but he did love his ex and states he think he would've eventually married her had he not met me." Then you said "My husband was never married to his ex nor was he considering it if she hadn't "accidentally" gotten pregnant." HE LOVED HER and after a year you married him knowing full well that not only were there feelings involved but also a child. Marriages are hard enough without adding a bunch of other circumstances. You repeat that HE pursued you, that is irrelevant because if you didn't pay attention to him all the pursuing in the world wouldn't mean squat.<P>I am not judging you but in all honesty Lisa you married a man that was in a MARRIED state (I know he wasn't legally married), but he was living with his family. Why did they break up? Why did you guys get married so quickly..why the rush? I am not understanding why everything happened so fast. <P>The kiss is something you really need to look into. Let's be honest, I for one am not going to kiss anyone I don't have feelings for, in my opinion a kiss can be so much more intimate than sex. I think there are still some definite feelings there.<P>You said:<BR>"Why do you think so many people merely live together? Because at least one of the co-habitees knows in their hearts they don't want to "buy", they just want to "rent"! This site has many topics on that very topic. Living together, even with a child, is NOT the same as marriage."<BR>Lisa let us keep this real, living together with a child is a serious committed relationship and one that should not be taken lightly by the two living together or by outside people. I am not legally married Lisa, I live with my fiancee and my son but my relationship is committed and I would not be living with someone I had no intention marrying or be with someone who I felt didn't want to marry me.<P>You seem to discount the fact that they were not married and even seem to justify that you did nothing wrong. It is evident Lisa they were together and things were not completely over when you and your husband rushed to get married. I don't envy your situation but I agree that you need to get involved now and be around when he sees his child.<P>

Lisa:<P>You have a very unique situation that has certainly put the cat among the pigeons here on this site. It appears that everyone feels torn about this. But, you're right. This IS Marriage Builders and that's what this site is all about.<P>As a woman who married a man with two children, I would be insulted if someone dimished my position as his wife simply because I was not the wife who gave birth to the offspring. <P>When I met my husband, he had been divorced for four years, not 'separated' weeks or months, from his wife, not his 'girlfriend'. We became involved quickly and were married a year almost to the day we met. However, during that year, he was all mine. He didn't spend six of those months with his ex-wife, nor did he kiss her or second guess his decision to marry me.<P>He did however, have some ambivalent residule feelings that caused me a lot of heartburn and made me wonder if it was wise for me to barrel ahead into the marriage when he could go back to her, even though their divorce decree had gathered considerable dust. <P>I told him I wasn't interested in being 'second' and if he preferred to go back to "Mary", I understood and would give him back his ring. <P>He certainly didn't want that at all. He explained he worried about the kids because they had been so damaged by the divorce and their mother's rejection that he just wanted her to show the kids that they were important to her. His empathy for his childrens' pain caused the ambivalent feelings...not love or yearning for her.<P>This is a tough call because I know you know you were hasty in marrying your husband and now you are getting feelings that he is wondering if he did the right thing by marrying you and limiting contact with his child.<P>Someone said (I think CD) that if a judge orders the mother to allow visitation to the father, then she must comply, regardless if you are present or not. She won't be able to call the shots.<P>You have to understand her huge resentment of you. She probably feels like we do; territorial, jealous, possessive, obsessed and feels as though you have stepped in from the blue and have taken the role she so wanted for herself. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned and you better batten down the hatches because the storms a coming.<P>While you and your husband's hasty decision to marry preempted the ex-girlfiend's expectations that she would one day be Mrs. German Pilot, she probably felt that having his child gave her a leg up (no pun intended) in competition for the title. She wants him for herself and has his child and you and he ruined everything; all her plans, all her hopes and dreams, when he married you.<P>The thing that bothers me the most about all this is that I don't believe your husband has resolved this on either side and is cheating you of being his one and only, exclusive spouse and his head is filled with all the angst that comes with these messy situations. I also wonder why he married you so quickly...and why you accepted so quickly when there had been so much time during the courting months spent with the XGF.<P>Let the courts resolve visitation, accompany your husband after the court order, try to understand her profound disappointment and sadness at loosing the father of her child to someone she sees as the OW who is really the wife!<P>It's crazy, but this is one situation here on this forum where I can totally identify and understand both sides...and have empathy for all. There are no real bad guys here...no one took anyone away from anyone or descreted a marriage, except as perceived by the XGF, who your husband was feeling probably not much more than obligation. The only person who felt 'entitlement' was the XGF and it was one sided...we think. The husband isn't really the bad guy either, unless he is lying, because he was providing financial assitance for the child and offering support to the XGF, who he clearly maintains he never would have married her anyway. And you, with stars in your eyes and believing what you want to, marry a conflicted man with major baggage and end up on this forum when you should be honeymooning...<P>Good luck, Lisa. You certainly have huge issues to iron out so early in the game. With compassion, understanding and keeping an alert eye to any possible outside interference, you and your husband may work things out in time when the wounds heal with the XGF, and you can all work together to provide loving stability for this innocent child that was born long before you knew your spouse.<P>Much of the reason why you don't have negative feelings about the child is because you were not betrayed by your husband when it was conceived...you didn't even know him yet. This factor alone makes all the difference in the world and separates your situation from ours here on this site.<P>Catnip =^^= <P>

Thank you Catnip for your insights. This was truly a breath of fresh air. I agree that this clearly isn't the forum for me so I will exit and not return. <P>I honestly did not realize that so many women would confuse themselves into truly believing that living together, with or without love, with or without a child, is the equivalent of marriage. If this were so, why would any woman in that situation ever go the next step and actually become married? <P>I wish you all well. To anyone that is actually married, I pray each of your husbands comes to his senses and returns whole heartedly to you. If you are not married, I encourage you to examine your hearts as to whether you truly should remain separate or get married. A child cannot be the primary basis for a relationship; the relationship will almost certainly fail if so. If you would've married even if you were not pregnant, then by all means you should.<P>I also encourage you to not hold it against the children of the OW--they are innocent and equally entitled to financial support and a close relationship with their father regardless of how or when they were born. To say otherwise simply based on the circumstances of the child's conception is hypocritical. Examine your hearts on this issue and hate the OW if you must but don't hate her child or take it out on the child.

Lisa, I wish you the best in your marriage lets hope you never have to walk in our shoes. Theres also another party that you forgot to mention and that is our children that will have to suffer when they learn of what there fathers and ow have done. Take care flowerseed<P>------------------<BR>`Look ahead or you will find yourself behind.

Lisa:<P>I hope you did not misunderstand and think I was inviting you to leave! You are welcome here on this site. There is no criteria to be here other than wanting to preserve your marriage. I certainly understand your predicament and empathize; I wrote what I did for all here to see another perspective.<P>Because of your unique situation of being a Wife who is probably regarded by the XGF as an OW, when in fact, she could be an EGF turned OW herself if your husband has ambivalent feelings and has kissed her. He may have lead her to believe there may be hope for the two of them. I can only say your husband is the one who is responsible to make everything clear to both of you. He has to face this and be honest with you both, for all your sakes. Everyone must know where they stand and what they can and cannot expect.<P>I agree the OC is innocent and needs and deserve financial assitance. Unfortunately, I do not agree with involvement on a personal level for everyone. Some here are able to include the OC into their lives and they will surely be blessed. Others find one on one involvement unacceptable and a threat to their marriage, which must come first. <P>It's too bad the OW in all these cases didn't do the right thing and give the child up for adoption to a two parent family to provide love and the advantages so necessary to survive in today's world, especially when most of them knew full well when they screwed our husbands that they were screwing unavailable married men and that there would be no 'daddy' for their child. This shame belongs to the selfish OW; the guilt of the OC not having a 'daddy' belongs to her as well as to the wayward spouse who's first obligation is to his wife and family of origin.<P>As always, I maintain that it is the woman who is responsible for allowing the encounter to become sexual as women have the power to choose whether or not she will have sex, unless she is raped. She is also responsible to take care of her body and prevent pregnancy-especially with a married man. I know I always had the power to decide. I guess it all boils down to choices. <P>It is a shame the OC won't have their father in their life, but the courts make sure the OC's get financial support.<P>Catnip =^^=