I will tell all of you I suffered another blow yesterday.<P>H comes home from single session and wants to talk.<P>Starts off w/how much he loves me...learned his lesson....wants to grow old together....will never ever "cheat" again....(I'm feeling sick now)....would I please listen to what he has to say w/out blowing up?<P>I promised I would stay calm.<P>Here comes "da-bomb"....If she sues for paternity and it's mine I will want to see how it looks....I won't be able to father it like I fathered Michael....but I'd like some time w/C. It won't affect us Debi...I don't want a big part in C's life. I feel nothing for ow....I never will....but the C is innocent.... You still make this about ow and you...it's not that...you have won(?)....you will always have me if you want me....please...how could I not ever see C?<P>Calmly I said...we will wait and see what happens. If you want to see C so bad I will go and not be in your way. I couldn't tolerate you even saying one word to ow.<P>See? he says...your're making this all about her. I don't care about her.<P>I said I DO!!!! She will get exactly what she set out to do..keep you in her life one way or the other. If it's a game hon, she will win.<P>So I pondered all day and concluded I should start a divorce now. How would I stay w/someone who would inflict this pain on me and think I would be ok with it?<P>That is my gut feeling. He's being absolutly cruel.<P>Pray for me. I feel somewhat the same as I did on d-day. I feel immobilized...I need to call a lawyer...I just would rather close myself off from the world and die.<P>I am so scared but I know the pain of dealing with C is MORE painful.<P> Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

gem,<P>I am so sorry. I feel the exact way you do. There is no way that I would tolerate contact with the child. With the child comes the ow. You need to follow your heart. Your h has had his ups and downs. And I can't help but think that your son started on the road to recovery when your h said that he wouldn't have contact. What will this do to him? This was his biggest fear, contact with the ow/oc. You need to take care of yourself and your son. I forgot, when is this baby due? <P>It doesn't matter. If he wants contact and you don't then it will be hard to compromise. One of you will be going against what you believe. I just feel so bad for you and your son to hear this now. Do you feel that if in the end the child wasn't his that your marriage would be ok? What are the chances that it isn't his?? Sorry I am asking questions. I am sure that you have considered all of these things. I am praying for you. you are a strong woman. and I know from your posts that you will be fine if you stay. And you will be fine, if you have to move on. Your in my thoughts.<P>babstr.

gem,<BR>I cant give you a reason he knows how you feel. I agree with you it is just cruel. One thing he needs to get threw his head is the damage is done him seeing this kid is not going to change it. This is a person that is going to know that he or she is a product of betrayel,deceit,and lies and probly think bio farher is a peice of s*** either way. I cant help but think I would feel like these men want contact only to keep ow involved in there lives cause thats exactly what there doing. Gem you do what ya gotta do. Ya know I still dont know if I can do this and he has no contact. The only thing I find that helps me is to do what I can to look ahead for for me weather it be with him or without. I think you are already doing that. with love flowerseed<p>[This message has been edited by flowerseed (edited March 04, 2001).]

gem,<P>i agree with babstr and flowerseed. if you both aren't in agreement, then i don't think that things will work. he knows how much this will hurt you, and you have been honest from the start with telling him that if he wants to be involved with the C then you won't stay. at first i tried to push my H to see the OC, because i wanted to see if he really wanted to. but since he has been adamant that he will have no contact, then i have had numerous talks with him and he knows that i could never stay with him if he were to want to be involved with the OC. <P>he has known about her since a little over a year from the affair and has never seen her once. i think i think about her more than he does honestly. he has gone on with his life, with his decision. now i am doing that, finally. she is going to be 4 this year. and i don't think he is changing his mind. i was worried that maybe when he knew for sure, that the DNA test showed it is his child, that he would change his mind. but we talked about that, and his stance since the beginning has never changed. that he didn't create this child out of love, he didn't want a child, and that he feels NO connection to the child. i pray it always stays that way.<P>i feel for you gem. but i would leave my H if he decided to have contact. i could not, would not be able to stand repeated contact with the OW. the OW would most likely poison the OC against me anyway, and i would be the bad guy, the one that took her "daddy". well, that little girl doesn't have a "daddy", she has a biological father. her mother chose that for her. a "daddy" comes from someone who spends time with the child, loves the child, etc. not just the person who donated the sperm.<P>well, i got rambling. this topic hits me everytime.<P>you have to do what is right for you and your son. whatever you choose to do, i pray that the lord will give you strength and comfort.<P>happy_girl<P>p.s. i think he is being selfish. it is the macho, i created a child, gotta see it, even if just once in a while attitude. he is not even thinking how that will affect the child. i think that "a little" contact, is worse than no contact. that child will feel like a second. my dad just sees me when it is convenient, when it satisfies his needs, his guilty conscience or whatever. and he will most likely end up trying to buy the childs happiness. giving gifts in lieu of time spent. i have seen it so many times, the father is there basically in name, he doesn't do what fathers do. he isn't there for the baseball games, or ballet recitals, just a couple weekends a month if that. he needs to search his heart and see who he is really thinking about. the child's needs or his needs...<p>[This message has been edited by happy_girl (edited March 04, 2001).]

Hey I only have a minute.....thanks babster ,Flowerseed , HappyGirl,<P>Well I told him the only way for piece of mind is D.<P>He tried to say I misunderstood him, that he doesn't know what he wants .....etc.<P>I can't be with him for even CONSIDERING seeing his offspring!<P>Said he understands that.<P>Told him I have HATRED for her and HATRED for C. I will never change my mind.<P>So then he says maybe I can just get a PICTURE if it's mine.<P>Well we took a drive together and talked, he does not want a divorce. I think it would be better in the long run as living here puts me in a scared frame of mind w/all the run ins I've had w/her. I do fear if he saw C and her and it was on a day we weren't getting along it would be too easy for history to repeat itself.<P> More later.<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

Dear Gem,<BR>i am so sorry he is pulling this on you. I don't know what to say because h has always been agreeable with me one way or another. I hope your h comes around soon.<BR>cd

Dear Gem:<P>Wow. Your husband does NOT want a divorce at all. He obviously wants only you in his life. It makes me wonder why this is such a pull for him to see the OC when he knows it means the sure death of the marriage. He is being so completely foolish for continually bringing this up. He has to let it go!<P>I keep thinking it must be out of some perverted and misguided sense of obligation because he seems to have moments where he forgets his ONLY obligation is to you and your son. Perhaps it is just curiosity to see the OC and what it looks like if he wants a picture.<P>It was weird. Today I was sitting here at my computer and going through paperwork on my desk while my husband was standing behind me rubbing my shoulders. In the blizzard of paperwork on my desk, I run across OC's health insurance card and said, "Here's OC's insurance card; I thought I put in the OW file." He said, "Let me see it." I handed it to him and said, "Why do you want to see it? It's just like ours but has her name on it." Isn't that petty and weird of me? For a moment I was feeling threatened or jealous just him seeing her name in print as if it would make it more real to him.<P>He said, "How old is she now? She must be two by now." I said, "No, not yet. She's about a year and a half."<P>It kind of put it in perspective for me that it was only an afterthought if he isn't sure of her age. It then made me feel guilty that that is all she is to him, an afterthought, because he isn't even sure of her age. <P>I felt bad for OC. But, that quickly passed because I realized she never should have been born, at least not to my husband and the OW while he is married to me, and that even though we have no children of our own, we are a family of twenty years and he promised me twenty one years ago on the 22nd of this month that he would cleave only unto me for as long as we both shall live, forsaking all others.<P>Gem, I understand your anger and frustration at having to field your husband's occasional desires to see OC. I wouldn't like it either, and probably would react much like you are doing. I would probably play the divorce card, too, because I would hate to end up like Zebra having contact with the OW and then feeling as bad as she does today. While it is commendable to have the 'heart' to allow OC contact, with it comes the OW which is the source for all the pain and heartbreak, confusion and resentment. I can't imagine having that in my face every weekend, or even once a month or once a year or knowing my husband wants to see OC or feels a pull. I raised his two children from a previous marriage and I am not willing to extend myself any further than that. They were a gift and I couldn't love them more if they were my own. But, that poor innocent OC is a curse to me, a reminder of all that destroyed our marriage, our exclusivity and our trust. And it is sad and it pains me, but it is not my sin, my guilt (even if I feel guilty at times) or my responsibility. And I believe with all my heart our husbands only responsibility and obligation is to us and to our marriages and our chidlren and family. And it stops there. <P>Any pull they feel will just have to be their penalty for what they did and they will just have to chuck it down, like we have to chuck it down that nothing will ever be the same, there will always be that dull ache inside that our husbands brought the worst possible trauma into our marriages and our lives are altered forever. <P>If we stay with them after all they have done to us, the least the can do is to resume our lives together as closely to what it was like BEFORE their fall from grace, to promote healing without whining, without further selfishness, without complaining, without giving into their selfish desires. It was their selfish desires that got us all into this to begin with. Now it is time for us to be a little selfish because we all have lost so much. Also, most of us were too giving to begin with, too loving (if that's possible-I thought that was the idea!) and they may have seen us as doormats or took us for granted or lost respect for us because we gave until it hurt us. <P>Men make promises when they come home and out of the fog and realize the horror they have visitied upon us--and them. They may pledge to never ever wanting contact and we are lulled into a false sense of security. <P>We become loving again and begin to trust, then they think they can take it to the next level because they are suddenly feeling "safe" and think they can step over a boundary. They are always so shocked at our reaction. They can't understand it! I mean, afterall, they are over it! Why aren't we? Isn't that the standard thing happeneing here? Isn't that their mantra?<P>Just like Zebra who was big enough and generous enough to include OC into her life only to have her husband over step the boundaries out of complacency or obtuseness...thinking that everything's OK and he can do as he pleases, says what he wishes and dismissed the POJA.<P>I keep thinking, though, if my husband and I were truly and completely at a place where the trust I had for him before was securely in place, I could perhaps allow contact with the OC. But, I know that the blind faith I once had in him is gone forever and only small smidgeons of trust come back in small increments. The OC will be drawing social security before I will feel comfortable enough to include her into our lives.<P>Well, Gem. Don't be too hasty to rush to the attorney's office. Your husband doesn't want a divorce. He just 'thinks' he wants contact or a picture out of some misguided sense of obligation. He needs to be reminded by your priest and counselor that the OC is not an option and never will be and he has to make a firm and final decision on that and stick with it. Besides, is the OW even pregnant? It sure doesn't sound like it...could be a very evil and sick game of hers. Isn't that weird? It's probably the one time in your life where you would gladly welcome that kind of despicable practical joke rather than the alternative.<P>How's your son doing? Still doing OK? How are you feeling? You're really on the mend, aren't you? I bet you look great, Gem.<P>Catnip =^^=

H just left. Kissed me. Said he loves me. Said he doesn't know what he's gonna do. I said let it go. If C wants to see you some day so be it. It would be like you having the A all over again in front of me. He said no it wouldn't I love you! I said yes it would. I'm calling an attorney. <P>He said we're arguing and we don't even know if it's mine!<P>But what if it is? (me) I don't know!(him)!<P><BR>Now, as far as her dropping dissoloution....in Ohio you can't be PREGNANT and get one. So whether she looks it or not I have to assume she is.<P>Her H is still in Fla. according to my friend's knowing her H cousin from work who just came back from visiting him. My friend doesn't know cousin well enough to ask Q's.<P>According to may 1 due date she is 32 weeks tomorrow. Still has 7 or 8 wks to grow. <P>no sightings in 2 wks.<P>My instinct says get out. If he can't decide and knows my hurt, why should I stay to wait and see?<P>My son thinks things are ok. He's doing fine now. When and if this happens(D) or visits.....he will again come undone. At least he's on meds. and is in counseling.<P>Oh I forgot...H said to me after I said she would always be in our marriage....she will anyway even w/no baby. You won't let it go. ugh...<P>I am lost.<P>My girls are dropping nicely. It'll take 3 mos. to calm them down and 6 mos. for full effect. I am soooo happy about my body. I look "normal" not like a Pam Anderson. I look like I did in my Victorias Secret wonderbra, except I have real cleavage, not "nothing" on top!<P>I honestly feel like between a rock and hard place with this.<P>I'm gonna pray.<P> Love to all who gave me advice. <BR> Debi<P>ps. Priest understands his desire not to turn his back on C. Nuff said.<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

Dear Debi,<P>I felt deep pain when reading your letter. Your fear and confusion and grief are overwhelming. The possibility that there will be, somewhere out there, a child born of your husband’s affair is a terrible thing to face.<P>I sensed that you are caught in a box, however, by the way you are facing this question. You wrote: “If you want to see C so bad I will go and not be in your way. I couldn't tolerate you even saying one word to ow.”<P>From my own perspective, there are many other possibilities besides divorce or no contact with the child. I wanted to raise some questions for you to consider, in the hope that some of them might open new paths for you. However, my thoughts are largely based on my own situation, so of course they might not have any relevance for you. My wife had an affair, the other man had been a good friend of mine. My youngest child is, biologically, his son. Our own marriage is healing in a slow but very beautiful way, but you surely understand when I tell you that my suggestions are rooted in months of grief and hope and love and pain, and extensive thought and reading. I hope some of these ideas will be helpful, although perhaps they will instead all be off target.<P>------------------------------------------------------------<P>First, is it really the child that is at issue here? You wrote that the other parts of your marriage are now wonderful. However, I have seen in myself how easy it is for one issue about the affair to become a lightning rod, attracting all of my fear and anxiety about the situation. For me, the old letters my wife had kept were once such a lightning rod, and many of my insecurities about our own relationship, and hopes for new kinds of interactions, were absorbed into worry about that one issue.<P>It is very hard to sort out such fears. I have been working with an excellent therapist for a year and a half now, and I would strongly recommend that you seek such counsel too, if you are not yet doing so. I think of myself as a strong person, but some things are very hard to face. My mind can play tricks, and twist events to try and make some sense out of the situation, and in so doing instead makes everything worse.<P>If there is something else that is really bothering you, perhaps just the need to believe totally that your husband is committed to you, then it is best to face that issue directly.<P>------------------------------------------------------------<P>Second, can you identify exactly what it is about your husband’s desire to see this child that so upsets you? You wrote that it was the fear that he would remain entangled with the other woman. I understand that concern completely, and agree that he must never contact her. As a betrayed spouse, that was my minimum requirement to begin renewing my marriage. However, the child and the mother are not a package deal. There are many other possibilities. Since you seemed reluctant to explore them, I wondered if you had a deep concern about the child itself, apart from its mother. If so, it is probably best to ask yourself what most frightens you about the child, and face it openly.<P>Everyday I see the face of my former friend when I hug my youngest child, or play with him, or read to him or comfort him. I won’t pretend that these constant reminders don’t hurt. But the pain has grown much less over the months, and there is something else far more important that makes this situation not merely endurable, but deeply satisfying and meaningful — my son is himself. A unique person. A child. He is not a symbol of the betrayal, or of any inadequacies of mine. He is simply and miraculously a beautiful, new person.<P>You wrote: “Told him I have HATRED for her and HATRED for C. I will never change my mind.”<P>At least to me, that anger towards the child sounds unlike the ‘real’ you I have encountered elsewhere in your posts. I don’t think that you are being honest with yourself about what is really hurting you. And I don’t think that the way you are focusing your anger will help you heal.<P>------------------------------------------------------------<P>Third, it seems that you and your husband must find some way to express and support each other in what you are feeling in this intense and painful time. That doesn’t mean agreeing to do something that you can’t do, or denying your own feelings. But this is perhaps the greatest crisis of your lives, you are both terrified and grieving and need each other. When your husband told you, “I will want to see how it looks....I won't be able to father it like I fathered Michael.... but I'd like some time w/C,” he was opening his heart to you in a very profound way. It doesn’t sound like you were able to listen to him, but perhaps now you can think through simply what he was expressing, and somehow separate it from your own fears. I don’t think he was being deliberately cruel. I disagree emphatically with almost everyone else who wrote to you. And please remember my own situation before you dismiss my opinion.<P>Before deciding to do anything, could you take a month or two and simply listen to his heart and his feelings, and express your own to him? If that won’t be easy, you could do it during marriage counseling. But I think that you should feel fortunate (in a strange sort of way) that your husband is concerned about this child. So many men find it very easy to walk away forever, even from the children of their wives.<P>------------------------------------------------------------<P>Fourth, someone very important is missing almost completely from your thoughts. You wrote: “Her H is still in Fla. according to my friend's knowing her H cousin from work who just came back from visiting him. My friend doesn't know cousin well enough to ask Q's.” I know nothing about her husband or her marriage. However, in most states, her husband will be legally the father of this child, unless they divorce and declare otherwise. Is he running away from the situation? What does he think? His voice matters. I was in his situation. I found out about the paternity after my son was born, which made the drama slightly different. But my greatest concern was that I wanted the other man out of my son’s life, and out of my wife’s life. Perhaps that is what he wants as well. Perhaps not. You can only find out by asking. <P>You would learn the true measure of your husband by seeing how he handles this conversation. (Perhaps he has done so already, I haven’t read all of your old posts). If he can contact this man, and apologize, and offer child support if wanted, or to get out altogether it that is what is wanted, and do it with sensitivity and dignity, those actions would speak very highly of his character. And, perhaps even more than the restoration of that exclusive relationship you once had, you would value signs that your husband was indeed a man you were proud to be married to.<P>------------------------------------------------------------<P>Fifth, if you divorce, your husband and his child will still be part of your life. And if you stay married and your husband never sees the child, it will still be a part of your life. The affair happened, and the pregnancy happened. Hiding from the child will not solve your problems. Neither will including it in your lives. Those choices are peripheral to the real issues.<P>I have tried not to bury what happened, but instead to face it. I believe, personally, that this is hardest but healthiest. Several of our close friends know what happened in our marriage, and their support has been invaluable. Our close family members know too. Again, their support has been tremendous. And we will tell our children about what happened too. We do not want to flaunt what should be personal, but we are also trying to build a solid future based on the truth, rather than on secrets. At least for us, secrets seem to eat away at a relationship, to corrode it. I can’t tell you how great the relief was when I finally told my parents about what had happened.<P>At first I just wanted to make the whole affair go away, and never let anyone know about the biological parentage of my youngest son. But later, I came to realize that the best approach was to face it and share that information with those who needed to know (grandparents , my son himself when he is old enough to understand, his siblings). In your case, it sounds as if you want to place the whole affair and pregnancy in a box and lock it and bury it. I certainly understand that desire. But I don’t think that doing so would ever bring you peace. I could, of course, be wrong, but I am trying to live the ideas I am offering. In twenty years I might be able to tell you how it has all turned out.<P>------------------------------------------------------------<P>All of this comments might make you think that I recommend that your husband include this child in his life. I do not. That is entirely your decision and his. What I am suggesting is that, when you make this decision, you need to consider your husband’s feelings and responsibilities equally with your own, and that you should also consider the child’s needs, and the desires of the legal father of this baby. I think that, whatever course you choose, you will find the peace you are seeking only if you face your greatest fears head on.<P>That is not easy to do, and I do not recommend it flippantly. But I can assure you that one of the greatest fears a man can have is that he would find out one of his children was not, biologically his. And here I am; occasionally casual acquaintances will comment about how strange it is that my son has an expression exactly like his half-sister (these people have no idea of the relationship), and I can assure you that it is not at all like what I thought it would be.<P>I wish you courage and wisdom as you seek out your own deepest fears, and find out how you and your husband can face them together.<P>Sincerely,<P>StillTrying<BR>

Geeze StillTrying,<BR>I just typed you the longest answer and my connection was lost.<P>I'll shorten it to this:<BR>The real issue is how could he want to see a c from a woman he no longer cares for? he must if he wants to see what they produced together.Your w no longer sees om. That is the issue. When c is old enough to see H it can. Without ow ever talking to me or H again.<P>Everyone has a breaking point. Mine is H feeling ANYTHING for a c he begged her not to keep. I just don't get it.<P>Her H is in Fla. from her throwing him out with glee at pregnancy. They were married 12 yrs. 3 kids. He was humiliated and tried to punch out my H at a bar a few days before I found out.<P>For my and my sons mental health C can't be part of h life.<BR>My son was in hospital psych ward in Jan. over this. He doesn't want HIS dad to try to father a mistake. She chose to keep C over everyones wishes for her not to. Her family and her H and her kids and my H. She should raise it herself and if it's my H he can pay and let c find him when it's old enough. I do not want that woman or their offspring in my marriage. I'm not burying it,I am aware it's there(almost), I just choose not to accept their c into my marriage. period.<P>Fear of him ever talking to her for anything no matter what it is drives me insane. She was my friend. She knows the baby will put a wedge between me and H if he gushes all over it. I couldn't live with that.<P>In a jan counsel session H said he'll do nothing unless she sues for paternity. then he would only pay. Now he's changing the rules.(or trying to)<P>For now I will wait. H can't fathom life w/out me. I will walk when this takes place in may and he still feels the need to see C. I will be crushed again but that will be it.<P>It's different for you as om never has to be part of your life in any way..........<P> Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....<p>[This message has been edited by gemini1 (edited March 06, 2001).]

Dear Debi,<P>I am sorry your long response was lost. Still, you managed to say a lot in a few words.<P>If I understand what you are saying, you still worry about what your husband feels for the other woman. I know I certainly feel the same way very often, and my wife has not seen other man in for long, long time now. <P>I would guess that the more your husband tells you that he feels nothing for her, the more uncomfortable you are. Feelings don't (usually) change overnight. They take a long time to catch up to the reality around us. So you might be wondering what is really going on inside him. <P>This is just a guess, but perhaps that is what is the hardest for you right now. And you might sleep more easily if your husband came right out and told you that he does, occasionally, still have warm feelings about the other woman, but that he loves you and wants to be with you anyway. That, after all, is a much more complete and realistic 'victory' for you.<P>In the absence of that type of deep exchange, maybe his interest in the other child symbolizes for you everything you fear.<P>And I understand your fears. The other woman does not sound like a person with whom your husband should ever have any contact. If it is any comfort to you, her life is in ruins, and she has herself to blame. I have read and heard enough to suspect that she probably went into this with a lot of problems, perhaps was severely abused once, I don't know.<P>Your family does need to stay clear. But I do think that you need to create a safe space in which your husband can express his own fears and pains without threatening your marriage.<P>I wish you well,<P>StillTrying

StillTrying,<BR>No, I don't think he has warm feelings for her. Honestly, it was over in late July or early Aug. by his chioce of being "tired" of the whole thing. She began to threaten to tell me. He avoided her calls.(caller id) then one day about 6 wks later she called from a phone booth and told him she was preg. He almost wrecked the truck! our counsler has told me in private that H has anger towards her and sees her for what she is now. A spoiled "rich" girl who is used to getting her own way. (she is too). He honestly doesn't LIKE her anymore.<P>When he moved back home after being gone a month he couldn't wait for his truck to be parked out front for her to see. (she lives 1/2 mile from us and we live on a main street she uses a lot).<P>He wanted her to see she didn't destroy him after all(?).<P>I don't know she's only 32, she has $, and is so bold to not stop going anywhere we used to go, (grocery store drug store deli). I have changed not her.<P>Thanks for your thoughtful insight.<P> Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

Gem,<P>My husband too changed the "rules" mid-stream. So I feel your pain there. Even though it wasn't as drastic a change as yours. <P>I guess my best advice to you would be to echo what StillTrying had to say. Try to foster an enviornment where you H feels comfortable expressing his feelings without thinking he's threatening the marriage. You may be surprised at what he tells you. You may find out that it's just a couriosity thing and nothing more. Or worse you may find out that he truely has a desire to be envolved in his C's life. But wouldn't you rather know that and deal with that reality than second guessing for the rest of your life. <P>I guess for me, I had to realize that he wasn't choosing the child over me, unless I put him in the position to choose. By giving him the ultimatum you are essentially making him choose one or the other. With that ultimatum you risk not only loosing your husband, but pushing him into a corner to sneak around behind your back to do something he feels obligated to do.<P>Keep in mind that men rationalize differently than we do. They are much more cerebreal and we are much more emotional. I sometimes forget this myself.<P>From reading your posts over the last few months it really seems like your husband bounces back and forth on this issue. It seems to me he is very confused and struggles with how he should handle the OC issue. Pehaps by opening your mind and heart to what he has to say (without committing one way or the other) he may have the space to work it out in his heart and head. You might try talking about what he thinks your lives would be like if you did accept OC. Let him know what your thoughts are on that senario too. Keep a level head during these talks so that he feels OK to share his true feelings with you. I worry that your insistance that there be no contact will stifen his ability to work through this for himself.<P>I hope this response to you comes across the way I mean it to. I don't want you to think that I am saying that you should accept the OC into your lives. I personally would love for my husband to not want contact. Lord knows it would make our lives a lot easier. But I know in his heart it's the right thing for him. I choose to support his wishes for the sake of our marriage and our future. It's a sacrafice I'm willing to make. And I know he loves me even more for the sacrafice I'm making. I realize it's not for everyone. So please don't think I'm flaming you about your choice.<P>Best of Luck, (oh and feel free to tell me to shut up if you think i crossed the line with my response.)<P>------------------<BR>Zebra Baby ...<P>Lord, give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I had to realize that he wasn't choosing the child over me, unless I put him in the position to choose.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>BINGO,ZebraBaby, that is exactly how I feel! It's like he wants me to swallow too much.<BR>All day yesterday(we spent it together at his office filing papers and having lunch)we talked. He truly doesn't know what to do. He said the one thing he wants is for us to be together. He loves me. He's so very sorry I am going through this. He can't believe I would let him back into my life and will never do anything to have me leave him.<P>He said please trust any decision I make on oc. I wouldn't let it interfere w/us or our plans or our life. Never! I would do anything to ease your mind. If I ever see c...You go pick it up and bring it back(fat chance)so I will never see or talk to ow again if that's your fear. I will do anything to make it right. If I spend any time I'm thinking I will wait till it's school age. I only want to know how it looks if it's mine and not be a driving force in it's life. ow will meet someone some day and marry and that should be the father, not me. I would only hurt c. I just want to meet c.<P>I listened and do understand that he'd want to know how it looks.<BR>Other than that Zebra, I don't want to be part of. Me going to my friend's house to get a baby she produced against my H wishes doesn't even make sense! She is so bold! She is something I never want to exchange words with. Seeing her now triggers thoughts of them laughing and doing the "wild thing" in ecstasy together. Her and those "blo* jobs". Her CAR is their bedroom for heavens sake! When I see that I just about cry all over again.<P>Regardless of him saying he wishes he had a magic wand to take the past away, I just can't deal w/c and what it represents to ME. You know? It represents in my mind betrayal. It reminds me of the act they did to have c. ugh.<BR>You know like proof in my face forever.<P>Sorry I can't seperate the two...I never will.<P>Maybe if he does see it, I'll just down a couple anti-anxiety pills and sleep through that day.<P>Also, I don't want my son to know anything about this as we still don't know anything. I just wanted issues out now and not wait and see if she sues for P.<P>You did not flame me.<P>I want to hear all sides. It just seems most of you that included c have so many extra ups and downs. I've had enough and want to go forward w/no interference.<P> Debi <P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

Dear Gem,<P>I just wanted to let you know that even though my h and I are currently pursuing visitation of oc, I completely understand and agree with your viewpoint. I really think that men who desire to be in the oc's life without their wife's consent are acting selfishly. They certainly aren't doing it for the benefit of the oc. How much could they possibly enhance the oc's life, especially if they are sneaking around to do it?<P>I still stick with my belief that unless the h and wife are in total agreement to extend family priveleges to the oc, it is degrading to the marriage to have anything to do with the oc. I can understand how your h might be curious, though, about what the oc looks like. My h was not curious at all. In fact he recieved a picture of oc from domestic relations after the DNA test was done (to prove the child in question was the one the DNA came from). He didn't even look at it. I looked at it but couldn't tell much at the time because oc was just a baby and the picture wan't very clear besides. I was far more curious to see what she looked like than he was. That was one of the hardest parts for me, during our first visit a couple of years ago, seeing the resemblence of oc to my h. I can't even imagine how I would have felt if ow had been a friend of mine - somehow that would have been worse. so I totally understand how you feel.<P>Now I will get to my point - I do have a point in all of this rambling on. I agree with stilltrying in that your h needs to feel secure and comfortable in sharing his thoughts with you. However, God tells us to "guard our thoughts carefully." For example, He says that lustful thoughts are just as sinful as lustful acts. So when I read about how a person should be open to hearing about their h's occasional "warm feelings" towards the ow, I cringed. For me, to know that my h had any warm feelings toward ow - which he doesn't, Thank God - would in my mind be another betrayal. I expect my h to "forsake all others" in thoughts as well as deeds. That holds true for me, too. I don't sit around and think about how much I cared for boyfriends that came before my h. No matter how much fun I had with them way back when, no matter how good friends we were, I feel that if I dwell too much on them, I would be "forsaking" my h. I do talk to my little sister - who is 17 and just entering the dating world - about my dating experiences (she especially likes to hear about some of my dating horror stories), but that's where it ends. I don't have 'warm feelings' for any of my former flames because I focus all of my warm feelings on my h. That is a lesson I learned the hard way, let me tell you.<P>I am not saying that any of this should be easy for your h to do, but he created a situation that will never be easy in any way. I just think that he ought to put your needs and concerns above any others. And if seeing the oc is something you can't deal with, I think it is wrong for him to try to coerce you into it. The ONLY reason we are proceeding with the pursuit of visitation is because I am agreeable to it. If I wasn't, we wouldn't be doing it at all. And I still might change my mind. But my h knows that unless he has my "enthusiastic agreement" (like the harveys say), we don't do anything. In m y mind, that's the way it should be.<P>Anyway, that is all just my opinion, but I wanted to share my thoughts on it with you. I hope the people that I disagree with (especially stilltrying) aren't offended by my opposing viewpoint.<BR>-cd

gem,<BR>Here goes I have been thinking it so Iam going to say it. Is it possible that h is saying he wants to see oc when he feels you are getting to big for your britches or maybe I should say bra ha ha . I may be way off track but its just a thought. Some men are control freaks and when they feel they are losing that control they seem to have to either do or say something stupid to try to get that control back. The way he keeps going back a fourth is why this thought crossed my mind. Looking back at our relationship I think that this has been a big problem with why we are where were at right now. with love flowerseed

gem,<BR>You know, flowerseed might have a point. I think that- strange as it may sound- my h kind of likes it when I am feeling nervous about the ow/oc situation. I mean, he doesn't like the fact that I feel that way, he just likes how I act when I do. When I am feeling the least bit threatened, I get possessive and extra-lovey-dovey. Kind of goes back to the "marking my territory" thing. My h doesn't do anything to make me feel insecure, but he enjoys reaping the benefits of when I feel that way. I thing men like to feel needed, and I am much "needier" with him when I am upset about this stuff.<P>Maybe your h is feeling just a little bit insecure about you really wanting to be with him- especially now that you have the twins - and feels the need to put you off balance a little. I'm not saying that he is doing it on purpose - it could be subconsciously. It could be that he is just "testing" you to see if you are still so possessive of him, to see if you still need him to be completely faithful to you. Sounds odd, I know, but the human mind works in really weird ways sometimes.<P>Just some thoughts...<BR>-cd

Flowerseed and cdcollins,<BR>It's certainly food for thought. I don't know. He felt a strong desire to make his presence known to C since day 1.<P>That was always a sticking point for me. Then our son made his thoughts known and H understood us and said he'd do what is best for us. He said no paternity unless she seeks it. Then he said angrily he wouldn't see c, anything to make our son and me happy. It wasn't true. He was angry because he struggles every day with what to do. He told me and counsler told me. If it's his he may not be able to turn his back completley. I do and don't understand that.<P>I won't repeat all the reasons.<P>Cd, I know he has contempt for her. THAT is one thing he's said from the beginning. I believe him. Our counsler has stated as time goes by he just gets angrier at the devastation HER choice has done to all of her family and ours. So "warm thoughts" are furthest from his mind.<P>As far as us being "together" he always says things like...I love being with you Debi...You are fabulous in bed...You have perfect legs, face, eyes, as*, and now...boobs! Although he says they were just fine before. He tells me I'm so sensuous and loving and he never realized what he had...the best !<P>Also says that is not most important thing to him. Me knowing he loves me is most important. Sharing everyday is important. Knowing we will stay together is important...etc..<P>I do have to say when I mentioned the D word he DID say something about someone else getting to have my new boobs, not him..... hmmmmm.....<P>This morning he asked me to think about making a promise to stay together no matter what. He said he would make it worth my while. I will think before giving an answer. I would like nothing more but.............<P> Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

gem,<BR>Heres what I felt when we got served with papers. I felt so out of controll that the first things out of my mouth was we'll sue that b**** and take the kid away from her. I actually had no desire to raise someone elses kid or have anything to do with it. It was just that feeling of no control that at the time I thought that was away to take it away from her. Thank God h wanted no part of it and I came to my senses once we really talked about it. Since I really do think your h cant stand her maybe thats what is really bothering him that she has all the controll in this. Just more of my rambling thoughts. with love flowerseed

Floweseed,<BR>He'll have some control through courts if it's his right? I don't know and he doesn't know what he's gonna do. Total confusion on his part. And bunches of guilt toward C.<P>Hey I got my stitches out today and Dr. Cuddahpah says I look like a 16 yr old!(boobs, not face!) ha ha ha <P>I look mahvelous!!!!!!!!!!!! <BR> Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....