Boy did you say the wrong thing! Perhaps BEFORE you say such stupid comments like this:<P><I><B>I HARDLY think a man who was RAPED by a woman would be help responsible for that child. </I></B><P>you should read what really is happening in the world, other than the view you acquire from the Dr. Laura show. <P>The first case is a child support case concerning a 16 year old girl, hired to babysit a 12 year old boy. She persuaded this boy to have sex with her and indeed got pregnant. Since having sex with a child under the age of 16 is considered rape, she was charged with the crime, but plead to a lessor charge. Now, what to do about the baby? The now 17 year old mother began collecting welfare from the state in which she resided and the state, as with all welfare cases, went after the father, a now 13 year old boy, even though he was unable to legally work for another three years. <P>Short recap: He lost, was deemed a "dead beat dad" by the courts and ordered to pay $7000 in arrears to the state. The courts, using an older case pertaining to the same type of issue, which stated: <I>If voluntary intercourse results in parenthood, then for purposes of child support, the parenthood is voluntary. This is true even if a fifteen-year old boy's parenthood resulted from a sexual assault upon him within the meaning of the criminal law. (11 149 Wis. 2d at 360.) </I> came to the same conclusion. Using this very case, the now 13 year old's case ended with the judges stating: <I>[T]he mother's alleged fault or wrongful conduct is irrelevant under section 545 of the Family Court Act. </I> As a side note, I have not read the appeal. I hope the court changed its ruling and do not ask this boy to pay child support. However, I don't hold much hope the ruling will change, even though he was legally raped. <P>The second case is one which highlights your idiocy that if a man doesn't want to have a baby, he just needs to restrain from having sex. Granted, I'm assuming you mean sex as in sexual intercourse, but I think that's a safe assumption since MOST people would THINK that's how one gets pregnant. However, read this case and you will see how one sexual act produced a child, which produced yet another man who now has to pay child support to a child he didn't want nor had any intentions of having. I will tell you, the sexual act wasn't intercourse, but did entail him actually wearing a condom. The specifics are:<P>"In State of Louisiana v. Frisard, 694 So. 2d 1032 (La. Ct. App.1997), the mother and father of the child for whom support was sought met in a hospital while the father was visiting an ill relative. The mother was a nurse's aid who has access to a variety of medical equipment. The mother offered to perform oral sex on the father, and, in the words of the father, "as ... any male would, I did not refuse[.]" 694 So. 2d at 1035. The mother had the father wear a condom. The mother then removed the condom for the father, and unknown to the father, she inseminated herself with the father's sperm using a syringe. The Louisiana court, noting that the probability of paternity was 99.9994%, held the father's testimony that he "had some sort of sexual contact with the plaintiff around the time frame of alleged conception, although he denied that they had sexual intercourse" was sufficient to prove paternity. 694 So. 2d at 1036. This fact of paternity obliges a father to support his child. 694 So. 2d at 1034. "<P>Basically, <I>because the father intentionally engaged in a sexual act resulting in his deposit of sperm WITH the mother, he is liable for child support.</I><P>In another case (S.F. v. Alabama ex rel. T.M., 695 So. 2d 1186(Ala. Civ. App. 1996)), a man went to a party at a woman's house. He got drunk, passed out and was put in a bedroom in the woman's home. Although he awoke with only his shirt on, he didn't recall having sex with anyone and further he did not knowingly and purposely have sex with the woman who owned the house. Two months after the party, the woman was heard stating she had sex with this man and he didn't even know it. She also stated the sexual act saved her a trip to the sperm bank. She was indeed pregnant and the man was served papers for child support. <P>Before you gawk, a doctor was called in to testify stating an unconscious and intoxicated man can have an erection and can ejaculate. Neither is a voluntary activity. <P>The court ruled against the father stating: <I>the wrongful conduct of the mother in causing conception did not obviate the father's support obligation.</I> He, of course, was ordered to pay child support. <P>You're right. People should start taking responsibility for what they do, how they act and should suffer the consequences for their behavior. But you know, perhaps we're starting our responsibility escapade with the wrong gender.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Couple_of_Reasons (edited July 27, 2001).]

COR,<BR> clap, clap, clap I could add lots more but you have read my mind tell ya what though it probley wont even penatrate this one is a real slow learner. love flowerseed

penetrate,,, no pun intended.<P>heehee.<BR>z.

cor,<BR>Oh my! Great examples. You da girl!!!! Amazing laws aren't they?<BR>love<BR>Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

Whether your examples are true or not, and whether the rulings in these cases are right or not, they have ZERO to do with whether a man who WILLINGLY has sex should be held responsible for the resulting child. You are really grasping at straws here. I'll say it again, personal responsibility! It's so simple, don't want to be responsible for a child???? Don't engage in sexual intercourse, PARTICULARLY with someone you aren't even married to!!!

Bonniebb,<P>***don't want to be responsible for a child???? Don't engage in sexual intercourse, PARTICULARLY with someone you aren't even married to!!!***<P>So what you are saying is that all the thousands of women who put their child up for adoption every year are unresponsible ?<P>Jtigger<BR>

First of all, it's IRRESPONSIBLE. Second - why are you having such a hard time understanding what I am saying??? YES, it's irresponsible to have intercourse if you are not willing to accept the possibility of pregnancy. That's the reason we hopefully teach our children what sex is for married people. Yes, it's irresponsible to become pregnant out of wedlock, but at least putting the child up for adoption is a responsible choice! But since, in these cases, it is up to the woman to decide that, like it or not, when they DON'T choose that, the OW has to take responsibility to raise the child and SO DOES THE MAN! It's really not very complicated. These pregnancies are a consequence of our H affairs! They weren't trapped. They chose to engage in a behavior that they know darn well, COULD result in pregnancy, and they still CHOSE it. If they couldn't live with the small chance that a child would be born, they should not have had sex! SAME GOES FOR OW!!!

By the way, Couple of Reasons, why are you so angry? You seem to be really trying to SHOW ME or something. You are a very angry person whenever someone dares to disagree with you. Your name calling is incredibly immature. No, I don't agree with a lot of what you say. So what? Because of that I'm an "idiot"? Gee, maybe it's best you DON'T have anything to with your husband's child that HE created WITH the OW while making the CONSCIOUS decision to engage in bahavior that RISKED creating a child! You would only do harm to the child, espcially if the child dared to disagree with you!

***They weren't trapped***<P>I'm sorry, I didn't realize that in the world you live in MM & OW jointly made the decision on whether or not oc should be put up for adoption.<BR>In the world I live in the ow is the only person that has any say in that decision.<P>jtigger

The biggest irresponsibility out of everything is having and raising a child when the father wants no part of it.<P>How can you say adoption is irresponsible? So all the people that can't have children should just suffer and never have the opportunity to have children?<P>My h ow is giving the child up for adoption. I can see no bigger positive to come from the affair than a happy, 2 parent household will get the joy of raising a child, even though biology gave them a different card to play.<P>The ow is being unselfish and caring for this child far more than the ow you are dealing with. I would rather be adopted than find out the only reason I was here is because 2 people chose to hurt others, be selfish and create me while in the midst of an evil betrayal. <P>Sex is not consent for children. In this day and age, we have so may forms of birth control that there is no reason for it. I heard on Oprah about a sports star that had sex with a woman and he used a condom. He threw the condom away and the woman pulled it out of the garbage and gave it to her friend. The friend impregnated herself and tried to get child support from the sports person. So, Bonnie, according to your philosophy, he should have had to pay cs. A person takes responsibility (uses a condom), but I guess since he didn't take it home with him or rinse it out in the sink, he should be paying for this innocent child. After all, it is an innocent child. So, what about the mother? What should happen to her? I am curious what you think about this.

Jtigger<BR>What are you reading? When did I say the H and OW jointly decide if OC should be put up for adoption? I actually said, quite clearly, that that particular choice, like it or not, IS made by the OW. Why argue that point there? That will never change. There is enough disagreement without you putting words in my mouth.

Ditto to you Samoyed - what are YOU reading???? I said giving the OC up for adoption is irresponsible? Don't think so. Honestly, I'm all for heated dialog, but what are you reading? I said it was irrespensible to get pregnant but that at least giving the child up for adoption is a responsible choice! Jeez, you guys must not retain info very well.<BR>Let me spell it out again, AS CLEARLY as possible.....IT IS IRRESPONSIBLE FOR THE OW AND THE H TO ENGAGE IN A BEHAVIOR WHERE THE POSSIBLE OUTCOME IS PREGNANCY. BOTH PARTIES KNOW THAT BIRTH CONTROL IS NOT 100% EFFECTIVE AND BOTH TOOK THE RISK. NOW, BY NATURE OF OUR BIOLOGY, THE W IS THE ONE WHO MAKES THE ULTIMATE DECISION TO GIVE UP BABY OR NOT, THAT'S JUST THE WAY IT IS, ALWAYS HAS BEEN AND I AM SURE ALWAYS WILL BE. WHETHER IT'S RIGHT OR WRONG IS RATHER IRRELEVANT BECAUSE THAT'S THE WAY IT IS. TRYING TO CHANGE THAT IS A SEPARATE ISSUE. THAT BEING SAID, H KNEW WHEN HE ENGAGED IN AN AFFAIR THAT NOT ONLY WAS PREGNANCY A POSSIBILITY, HE KNEW THAT IN THAT EVENT, IT WOULD BE UP TO OW WHAT TO DO WITH CHILD. SO AGAIN, HE MADE THE CONSCIOUS CHOICE THAT HIS SHORT TERM PLEASURE WAS WORTH YOUR PAIN AND THE PAIN OF THE OC. HE MADE THE CHOICE. NOW, WHEN OW CHOOSES TO GIVE THE BABY UP FOR ADOPTION - YEAH!!! IN MY MIND SHE IS AT LEAST MAKING A RESPONSIBLE CHOICE AND TRYING TO MAKE SOME GOOD OUT OF THE EVIL SHE COMMITTED. BUT H CAN'T MAKE HER DO THAT, AND HE KNEW THAT WHEN HE TOOK THE RISK. WHEN THEY CHOOSE TO KEEP THE CHILD, THEN YES, IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF H TO BE A FATHER, JUST LIKE IT'S OW RESPONSIBILITY TO BE A MOTHER. JUST BECAUSE OW DOESN'T MAKE THE CHOICE HE WANTS OW TO MAKE, JUST BECAUSE SH DOESN'T MAKE THE RESPONSIBLE CHOICE, DOESN'T MEAN H IS OFF THE HOOK. HOW MUCH MORE CLEAR CAN I BE WITH MY OPINION? TWO WRONGS DO NOT MAKE A RIGHT! JUST BECAUSE OW MAY MAKE THE WRONG AND SELFISH DECISION TO KEEP OC, IT'S NOT THEN OK FOR H TO TURN HIS BACK ON CHILD!

Bonnie,<BR> . WHEN THEY CHOOSE TO KEEP THE CHILD, THEN YES, IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF H TO BE A FATHER<BR> Were is there a they? I dont know of any man that got the say so in this.<BR> I would say yes if he agreed that he wanted to be involved in this childs life then yes he should be responseable.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bonniebb:<BR><B>By the way, Couple of Reasons, why are you so angry? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Suzi, I'm not angry. Perhaps you perceive me as angry, but in reality, I'm far from angry. I actually look at your charade as comical. <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You seem to be really trying to SHOW ME or something.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, in my last post I was trying to SHOW YOU that you don't know what you're talking about when it pertains to issues involving reproductive rights. <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You are a very angry person whenever someone dares to disagree with you. Your name calling is incredibly immature.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well, if name calling is "incredibly immature", you've proven your "incredible immaturity" long ago by calling husband's names, wives names and everybody else derogatory names, including calling me a "very angry person". <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Because of that I'm an "idiot"? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, I didn't call you an idiot. What I SAID was "The second case is one which highlights your idiocy that if a man doesn't want to have a baby, he just needs to restrain from having sex." Meaning: If you think a woman wouldn't intentionally get herself pregnant without the man even having sexual intercourse with her, then the statement is just plain idiotic. <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Gee, maybe it's best you DON'T have anything to with your husband's child that HE created WITH the OW while making the CONSCIOUS decision to engage in bahavior that RISKED creating a child! You would only do harm to the child, espcially if the child dared to disagree with you!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh, now that's rich. Because *I* don't agree with YOUR ideas, this would make me a bad influence on the OC?? LOL<BR>I'm sorry, but I didn't know we ALL had to conform to YOUR ways. <P>I actually LIKE when my children debate with me and entice them to feel free to debate any issue. We debate (read that again - debate) on many, many issues which means they feel safe enough to discuss opinions with me, even when they know I may have a different point of view. So I must not be so bad, huh? I have also taught them the difference between opinion and facts which, I think, prevents preconceived notions about people, races, genders, religions etc. It's sort of like teaching them not to judge a book by it's cover - like just because you don't like the color blue doesn't mean all blue books are bad. Know some facts before you start mouthing off an opinion. Facts make opinions stronger, ya see. <P>So if you think this would cause harm to the OC, then perhaps you're right. Then again, there goes that "fact and opinion" difference eh? <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bonniebb:<BR><B>JUST BECAUSE OW MAY MAKE THE WRONG AND SELFISH DECISION TO KEEP OC, IT'S NOT THEN OK FOR H TO TURN HIS BACK ON CHILD! </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh, I SEE NOW! ONLY the OTHER WOMAN is allowed to be irresponsible and selfish by keeping a child, but the MAN is the one who is supposed to be responsible and unselfish???? <BR>

Flowerseed<BR>Yes, I admit, that was a TYPO. I meant "when she chooses to keep the child" I knew I had made a typo when I read what I posted but figured it was clear that it was a typo by the rest of what I was trying so clearly to say. <P>Couple of Reasons - you are beyond trying to have a dialog with so I will not respond to you unless you'd like to stick with the issues at hand which you so conveniently try to avoid by instead starting immature arguments. I disagree with you and what I said, very clearly, states my opinion. If you'd like to address that and disagree, go ahead. But please, spare me the name calling, nose in the air, I know everything attitude! You are angry and hurting just like everyone else is here. You are entitled to your opinion just as I am to mine. Don't be angry just because I disagree with you. You think you're so smart and so above it all. You aren't, you're human just like the rest of us. If you don't like me or my opinions, why not cease this little baby, name calling game.

****THAT'S JUST THE WAY IT IS, ALWAYS HAS BEEN AND I AM SURE ALWAYS WILL BE. WHETHER IT'S RIGHT OR WRONG IS RATHER IRRELEVANT BECAUSE THAT'S THE WAY IT IS. TRYING TO CHANGE THAT IS A SEPARATE ISSUE. ****<P>Oh dear bonniebb,<BR>Just because something is a certain way does not make it right. That is why today WE ARE Americans instead of English, it is why slavery WAS abolished, it is why women CAN now vote , it is why woman HAVE THE RIGHT to reproductive freedom , and it is why men WILL BE emancipated from the injustice of forced parenthood. Simply because it is not right.<BR>We ARE trying to change the notion that only a woman can decide the outcome of a pregnancy. How did you miss that concept ?<P>Jtigger<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bonniebb:<BR><B>If you don't like me or my opinions</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You're right. I don't like you. It has nothing to do with your opinions. It's YOU who I have an issue with. <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>why not cease this little baby, name calling game</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Suzi, when you can stop going from board to board, harassing wives who are already hurt then I'd glady back off. However, if you want to continue playing the sick, twisted and evil little game you like to play, then expect me. <P>Your "story" is untrue. You are not a wife. You don't have an OC issue and I'm not even sure you ever were an other woman. You have had more stories, more handles, more everything that it's truly scary, yet I'll give you an A for the creative effort you have put forth in your many facades. <P>In case you have forgotten, Suzi, or got your names and stories mixed up, here's a recap of history for you. Yes, it did take some time (12.5 minutes to be exact), but honestly, when it comes to protecting the hearts and minds of betrayed wives with REAL OC issues, it's worth every minute. <BR> <A HREF="http://www.affairs-help.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/001252.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.affairs-help.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/001252.html</A> <A HREF="http://www.affairs-help.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/001294.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.affairs-help.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/001294.html</A> <A HREF="http://www.affairs-help.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/001305.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.affairs-help.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/001305.html</A> <P>Stick to the real issue. It's not your opinion which is the issue. The real issue, Suzi, is the cruel game you play with people and the chaos you cause on every single affair board known to the Internet. <P>You talk about taking personal responsibility for our own actions. When can we expect you to take some responsibility for the havoc you continue to create? Perhaps you still need to discuss this issue with Dr. Eleanor. Perhaps you need to get a life and leave these women alone. Perhaps you need to figure out a way to deal with your personal issues before you start expressing your opinion about other people's issues.<P>Perhaps you need to disconnect your modem. <P>CoR

Jtigger<BR>Let me ask you...what was your husband's penis doing in another woman's vagina? Does your husband know that's how babies are made? Does he know no birth control method is 100% effective? NO ONE FORCED parenthood upon him and you know it. He took the risk. Instead of this campaign to change what WILL NEVER change lady, why not instead accept the fact that a man has COMPLETE AND TOTAL control over where he puts it? You do a disservice to women with this ridiculous campaign. It WILL NEVER change! That's why people have free will over to whom to have sex. Was your husband unaware that if his OW got pregnant it was ultimately her decision whether to abort or give up for adoption or keep the baby? Did he know that was out of his hands when he volunteered for sex?<BR>PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!!!! Women carry babies, not men. That's the way it is. You will not change that. Too bad if your husband doesn't like that, he could have made the choice NOT TO HAVE SEX with her. Ladies, CUT THE CRAP with the forced parenthood business. IT'S PATHETIC!! He knew what he was doing and he WILLINGLY TOOK THE RISK. TELL HIM TO STOP WHINING AND BE A MAN FOR A CHANGE

Bonnie not to sound rude becaue im just as angry, heartbroken and as hopless as you right now, but i think you should let that h of your have it , i mean really let it out on him ..cry scream..blame him..the whole nine yards..I dont have the luxury of knowing yet because my h is in the denial stage yet..but i let him have it when i found the evidence of this..i let the roof fly so i did not have to take it out on anyone else who really had nothing to do with it..i come here sometimes in pain..never accusive of how other greive or how they handle thier lives but to learn and possible be able to be emotianlly where they are now becasue it is a much healther state of mind ..there are times i come here desperate, i wont find a miracle here as i sometimes wish too but i go away with a bit of a miracle in what i learn and how i feel after i speak here..God works in mysterious ways Bonnie..that was proven to me over an over again in many things that happened in the past year..I was suicidal for about a minute while listening to a song in the car..i am not that way but i felt hopless..i just saw darkness in front of me..this is not a good place to be and i was were you are many months ago..I refuse to lose the anger..now it turned into despair..if i dont get my answers only God knows where it will go after that..i have this problem about me..i cant let go of anything..its apparent..but i know i have to if i want to live..i am going back to couseling..i decided today..i think you should also see someone about your pent up anger..it is a very dead end i assure you<P>yf